Introducing the Excommunication Debrief

Natasha Helfer [00:00:00] I guess I'm starting the interview this time versus John because I actually asked John and Margi to join me tonight in a bit of a debrief. And I wanted it to have less of an interview feel rather than just a conversation feel, first of all because we're friends, and second of all because John also had a personal experience in this. In this story as far as traveling to Witchita. And also you've had a family experience now that I can relate to, sadly, a lot more personally than I've. You know, I've always understood your story somewhat and listened to you talk about it, but it's different when you've lived through something similar together. You can talk about it a little bit differently. So I. That's my introduction, John, to your. To your Mormon Stories episode. Whatever. Whatever. Whatever.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:00] It was beautiful. It was beautifully done.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:03] And I feel like I'm better rested and better able to talk.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:07] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:07] A week later than I was able to, you know, the days after, when I was just really recovering mostly from sleep deprivation. So. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:17] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:01:17] So thank you for joining me tonight.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:20] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] All right.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:24] I can start with a question that. That I'm just curious about.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] Go for it.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:28] Okay. I'm curious about how you were feeling leading up to flying to Wichita. Like, what did you. We kind of met with you earlier in the week. Was it a Tuesday, I think we met, or a Monday, maybe, that we did the interview?

Natasha Helfer [00:01:42] I think it was Monday. But I'm not probably going to be the best right now with my dates, mainly because I think. So I had received that letter, you know, summoning to this council, or at least informing me about the council. They were. I don't even know that summoning is really the right word. It was kind of like, so we're having this council.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:02] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:03] Kind of with or without you, if you want to show up. This is when it's happening. That's kind of how it felt.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:10] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:10] It wasn't like an invitation, really.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:13] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:13] Oh, and if you want, you can have people come on your behalf or write letters. But, yeah, it wasn't like, you know, we'd like to invite you to come and have a conversation. It wasn't like that. So I. I guess I'm going to call it an announcement letter versus a summoning letter.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:31] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:02:32] That happened, like, people know, on Easter. And then that first week, I really just. I reached out to John and to Greg Prince. Well, John, you put me in touch with Greg Prince, Jana, for example, and Jody England, who ended up being witnesses for me. Like, we were all making a lot of phone calls and trying to, like, press pause. And it was all happening so quickly. And, yeah, I kind of figured this would be. I didn't realize it would be quite as popular of a story as I think it has become. And popular is probably the wrong word, but you know what I mean? Like, having as much reach. But I knew it would have, like, all of the. Every time we've seen this happen, it hasn't been healthy for our community. Right, right. There's people who double down. There's people who resign. There's people who are triggered by their own ways that they relate to the people and the storylines. I mean, so I really wanted to avoid all that. So I spent my first week kind of, you know, in my own kind of grief. But it's not like I wasn't, like, shocked. I mean, I think I've been pretty open that ever since I wrote my first. That first blog that I felt was fairly controversial as far as taking a public position against maybe church understandings was the masturbation blog that I wrote many years ago. So I'd always been kind of in this tension within myself, like, oh, am I going too far? How much are they gonna let me talk openly about? Which then, of course, would make me angry because I'm like, I should be able to talk openly about my public opinion, you know, my professional opinions and the statistics I see and my own anecdotal experience. But I've been in that tension for a long time, and I've had other repercussions, like LDS Family Services refusing to refer to me, bishops talking behind my back in my stake, all, you know, and whatever those meetings are called, like, where all the bishops and the stake presidents get together and. And basically say, yeah, don't refer to Sister Helfer anymore. Um, so I knew all those things were happening. I could also tell that my clientele was changing over time. Like, as I would write on my blog, probably more orthodox believers would feel less comfortable with me because they could notice that tension between doctrinal understandings and my professional expertise in these particular areas. Right. So it was. I want to be clear. It's not like I was talking badly about everything or opposing everything. There's. I think I've always been very clear that there's a lot of healthy principles and gospel doctrine understandings, and. But in this area of sexuality and in the area of people leaving the church, yeah, I see a lot of problems. And why do I continue to see people coming in without saying anything about it, trying to change the system that's causing all the people to come in to begin with. So that tension has been there for a long time. And I will say that I was prepared. I remember when I wrote that masturbation blog, I was scared. I was like, this could mean that I could be brought in and who knows, they could excommunicate me about that. So that was a very painful decision to make at that time. But I just, I had to. I don't know, there's like this little Mormon girl in me that's like, do what is right. Let the consequence follow that. You all taught me, you all taught me that. Yeah, that principle, right. Or, or do what is right. Stand, you know, be willing to stand up for things that are true. I mean, we get all those messages and when it's, when it's, when it's in alignment with what they're wanting us to choose and stand up for, then you're praised for that. Right. Like, how many times did I stand up to my peers in high school saying, no, I'm not gonna drink the beer, I'm not gonna try the marijuana. Right. So if the church leaders saw me standing up for that, you know, they'd be like, good job, you know, good job, Natasha. But. But in a. But basically those same principles led to my professional advocacy that I, I started feeling unethical, being quiet.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:15] Yeah. So.

Natasha Helfer [00:07:16] So it didn't come as a surprise that I'm in this situation. I was still probably a little bit surprised at my own emotional reaction to it since I had been prepared for so long. And I was also surprised that it, that there wasn't more willingness to have conversations before this, you know, like, I would have felt, I think, better about this decision, this parting of ways. If we could have had maybe at least one to two, one to two hour conversations either with, you know, the stake president in Kansas or much preferably my leaders here. You know, I would have rather my leaders here have taken the time to get to know me and what I'm about and why I feel the way I do. And if at that point, if I felt like I had been heard and they're like, you know what? We hear you, we can see you're a good person, but this still isn't going to work. I would have been sad still, but I think I would have been like, well, at least we went through the process, right? We went through the process of trying to understand each other. So I was surprised. What was your original question? What was it like leading up to it? So By Monday, when I did ask the two of you to just kind of help me tell my story, because I did have all these questions. You know, they had given me questions that they were concerned about, but there was never really an opportunity for me to address those questions. And so I asked you to help me address those questions that I knew were not going to take 40 minutes to address and turned into a three and a half hour conversation. Right. Which is short for you, John. Right. Like, I didn't. It wasn't eight hours. So anyway, so I was sad about that. And then I was. I was surprised by the unwillingness to just share information, basic information, like, because then I felt like, okay, I tried for the first week to get this to stop. It's obviously not stopping. Okay, so now. Now I have to reach out and type it. Are you willing to write a letter of support? I didn't ask anybody, by the way, to witness for me, except for Andy, because he was in Kansas. I didn't expect anybody, including you, John, to come to this event because, first of all, I know it's expensive to travel to a smaller airport like Witch, Kansas. It's not like traveling to Chicago or San Francisco. It's always more expensive to travel to the smaller places. And we had like six days. So everybody knows that you always get a travel ticket at least two weeks in advance if you want to make it reasonable. So I'm guessing, like, the people who traveled probably paid somewhere between five to $700 to get there, because normally it's like almost $400 for me to travel to Wichita from Salt Lake City. And there's no direct route from Salt Lake. It's a mess, right? So I didn't ask. So all my witnesses approached me and just got it either. Just informed me, like, I think, John, you're like, oh, yeah, I just bought my ticket and I'll be there. And I'm like, oh, of course you weren't a witness, but you were gonna support. Right, but the people who were willing to be a witness just said, I'm willing to do that. And we're already looking into tickets and we're. We're just gonna do it. So, yeah, so that was a surprise to me. But. But yeah, like, simple things, right? Like, so I. Like, for example, I didn't know that I would only have an hour until I. I asked for my seventh witness, I think. So I think it was Andy and the five women. Is that correct? And then the seventh witness, which I already had decided would be the final one because I was starting to also worry about how much time there would be. And I didn't want to have the stake presidency, have to be there for four hours or anything. So it wasn't like I was expecting four or three hours. I was expecting my witnesses to be able to take up about half an hour to 45 minutes, and then I was expecting to be able to have about an hour. That was my expectation before I understood anything.

Inside the Disciplinary Council

Margi Dehlin [00:11:46] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:47] And then. So when I asked for my seventh witness, that's when I guess I'm just going to call him Steve. When Steve told me, actually, you're only going to have an hour. So I'm going to, you know, not approve this last witness.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:05] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:12:05] Which I don't totally trust anyway. I think. I think the fact that my last witness was an attorney by trade, which I disclosed because I didn't want to come across as sneaky, like, because the letter says you can't have legal representation. But he wasn't coming as legal representation. He just happens to be an attorney. So I had disclosed that, trying to be just very honest upfront. My feeling is that that's why he was not approved. And then I did also reach out later, privately and say, you know, this is the only. This is the only witness that I have that represents the LGBTQ community. So I really. I'm asking you to consider this again, because I think it's important to allow, you know, somebody who represents that community to witness for me. So I asked twice for. I even said, I'm willing to take away one of my other witnesses, even though they had already purchased travel tickets. I even said, I'm willing to explain to one of my other witnesses if you can instead put Paul's ship in. And he still denied that. So there was a lot of rigidity and a lot of. A lot of. Yeah. A lot of weirdness that I had never experienced. I mean, I've served. I've served as a Relief Society president. I've served as a. In the young women's presidencies. I've served in as a teacher. Like, I know what it's like to get permission and, you know, can we meet as sisters? Is there going to be somebody who can preside? You know, I mean, there's always. Is there going to be a man in the building while we're having homemaking? Like, yeah, I know that. There's always, like, protocol. Right. That we have.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:54] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:13:54] And so I just really wanted to understand what the protocol was so that. Because I've never been through anything like this and Maybe people think that because we're friends or because I'm friends with the Youngs or that I'm in the know, that I knew all these details from all of you and that I should know what to expect. But, you know, with all of you, we've all just talked about these things. Very, like, more like from an emotional perspective and from, like, what was that like for you? And not like, so what did you have to sign and what did you bring or not bring? And were you able to be in the lobby or not? Like, I still don't know those things. Tonight, about your experience, I'm going to ask you those questions. Were you allowed into the lobby and able to use the restroom or did your. Because I think your dad was a witness, if I remember correctly. Did they make your dad sit outside in the curb while you were in there? Like, what was it like for you guys? For you?

Witnesses, Security, and Council Procedures

John Dehlin [00:14:56] Yeah, I mean, basically we had five witnesses. They. We all sat. We all were. There were several men. Several had, like, earpieces and wires, kind of like Secret Service, you know, they were definitely.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:13] Oh, so they had recording devices.

John Dehlin [00:15:16] What's that?

Natasha Helfer [00:15:17] So they had recording devices.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] They had kind of these, or at least communicating devices, Secret Service communication devices where they could. They had the earpiece and the little squirrely wired on the thing.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:27] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] But they, you know, they escorted us in and to the Relief Society room. And so we sat in the Relief Society room. You can tell me if you remember differently.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:38] You had access to a bathroom. You had access to a chair.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:42] We had access to a chair. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] We were. We were. It was me and Margi and the five witnesses sitting in the Relief Society Room. They brought us water and.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:53] Yeah, that was nice.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] People. People.

Natasha Helfer [00:15:55] Water would have been nice.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] Yeah. And people. And people were allowed to use the restroom if they needed it. They did. We were the first ever. I was the first ever where they. They brought out these. They didn't send us the releases beforehand. They brought out these sheets of paper that basically said, when you sign this, you're agreeing not to record the proceedings.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:20] And they didn't tell you about that before you got there?

John Dehlin [00:16:22] No, because we were. We were the first that. That ever happened to, I think, ever.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:27] Okay. And so again, it wasn't you. You walked into that building not knowing that you would have to sign?

John Dehlin [00:16:34] No. They may have. They may have. They may have. I don't remember if they told us that in documents beforehand or not.

Natasha Helfer [00:16:40] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:43] I. I wouldn't be surprised if they had said for. For Recording is forbidden kind of thing. So we. I don't. I don't remember being super surprised that we were asked to sign those papers. I think we both agreed to sign them. I still had planned to record anyway, honestly, and Margi asked me not to, so I didn't. I didn't record my disciplinary council. And. And, yeah. And then we were escorted in to the disciplinary council.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:15] Oh, wait.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] Oh, go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:17] They came in with a basket and asked for us to put our phones in the basket.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] That's right.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:22] I was surprised by that.

John Dehlin [00:17:24] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:24] That was not in any of the. I did not understand that we would be turning in our phones.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] And so we did. We did turn in our phones.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:32] And so they asked each. And what did they. Where did that basket go? Like, did they have access to her? Did they just set it aside? Did you know where your phones were?

John Dehlin [00:17:42] I don't think we saw that.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:43] So your personal property was confiscated and you don't know what. Ha. Like, they could have done something to those phones, as far as. I mean, I'm not saying that they do that, but you. You have no idea what happened to those phones.

John Dehlin [00:17:55] And that's why.

Natasha Helfer [00:17:55] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] That's why I thought that they might not let you use your phone, because they had not. They had made us turn our phones in.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:04] And you had mentioned that to me once, I think, during the weekend, but I was like, well, I read. I read the paperwork, and it doesn't say specifically a phone. Plus, the only recording I really know of. And I hope he doesn't mind us talking about it, but Jeremy Reynolds. And so I'm guessing he also was asked to turn off his phone. I don't know. But I guess what's. What's silly to me is that, like, if you really want to do a recording, you're probably not going to use your phone. Yeah. Like, there's lots of recording devices. And especially if I would have known that. If I would have known for sure they're going to want my phone and I wanted to really record.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:46] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:47] I would have not cared to hand over my phone.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:50] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:18:50] I would have been like, sure. And I would. Because I would have already had something going. I don't really know how all those things work, but. So that's what seems so silly to me. Like, to me, like, if I would have wanted to bring in my computer. Well, my computer has ability to record. If I figure it out somehow. I don't consider a computer a recording device.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:10] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:19:11] And basically I was. I was agreeing. And I was also. I also Remember wondering, well, do I really bring in paper? Because it says you can't even do written recording. So I'm. Because I was thinking about it, I was like. Because sometimes when people talk to me, like, obviously as a therapist, even when people talk to me, I take a few notes because I'm not going to remember everything you said to me in the last 10 minutes. So then I can refer to my notes and then answer questions or. That's a very typical thing a therapist will do. So I, I had thought ahead of time. I bet you if I do that, like, if I'm as if I'm listening to them and I take a few notes where I want to address some things, they're not going to let me do that because they're going to be like, oh, no, no, you can't write anything down. So I was already in that space where I probably can't bring paper. My computer had broken. I had all my notes and my, you know, I use my notes app on my cell phone for everything. You can go look at it. It has like seven bajillion notes, probably way too many. I need to go in and organize my own notes. But I thought that's, that's where I'm gonna. And I even thought, you know, if they want to see what I'm doing with my phone, it's right there. I can say, look, I'm just on my notes, you know, So I wasn't that concerned about the phone thing, really.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] There's a few interesting comments. We're live streaming to Facebook.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:37] Heidi writes, heck, hell no to anybody touching my phone. That's what Heidi writes.

Natasha Helfer [00:20:46] Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:46] And James writes, personally, I'd never subject myself to a process that deprived me of my right to record or have with me my defense. Why must they insist on operating in darkness?

Natasha Helfer [00:21:00] Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] What do they have to hide? What happened to do what is right then come what may? And, and the reason why. So like, and, you know, just the reason why I felt like it was important to record stuff is because I'd watch with Kate Kelly, her say that things that they were saying to her in private were different than what they were saying in public. And I had seen other people get smeared like Simon Southerton and others that, you know, where they're really doing it for reasons that are embarrassing to them. And so they try and pass it off as an, as an issue of personal worthiness when really it's things embarrassing to them. And so just for the record, I, I agree with, with what James writes, you record for Your own defense so that they can't misrepresent what, what's really happening. And I'm so glad I did record our interactions with my stake president leading up to it, because they didn't listen to the disciplinary council that in my case, the decision was already made.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:04] Yeah, but. But as I feel like it was for me as well.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] But I was able to get him on record for why, why he was calling the, you know, my bishop and my state president, why they were convening it.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:15] Right.

John Dehlin [00:22:15] And then the New York Times published that. And for me, I was just glad there was a record that it really was my support of same sex marriage, my support of ordained women, you know, my podcast that they wanted to silence my podcast, that sort of thing.

Natasha Helfer [00:22:28] Right, right. Like, for example, if I didn't have that letter that Steve wrote me outlining the questions he had for me, which I appreciated, I asked him to do that and I wanted to know, like, what is it that you're really wanting to understand here so I can be prepared to talk to you if we're going to have that conversation. I'm really glad I had that because that really showed what they were worried about. Because then later, I think for PR purposes, they're just saying, no, no, it's not that you support gay marriage or that you talk about masturbation. It's about the. That you're rude to us and that you said a naughty word and that you. That you're in opposition of doctrine. Well, of course I'm in opposition of doctrinal understandings because I don't agree how you're talking about sex and sexuality and gender identity and all those things. But that doesn't mean that I don't still have a lot of personal meaning about other things in the church, you know, or beliefs or whatever. Anyway, so I agree with that. And normally I wouldn't put myself in those kinds of situations. I was willing to, to kind of play the game because I was interested in retaining my membership and because I wanted to be a witness to this process. Like, if you're really going to be as barbaric as throwing me out of your family, I mean, this is like a kid being thrown out of their home. I want to be a witness to how harmful that is. And I wanted to try to have a conversation. You know, there were a lot of things I wanted to try to do. And exactly for the reasons that you're talking about, John, that this question elicited is. Or this comment is, if you notice in my Official response to the church, you know, to their, we're having this council. So then I responded officially. I said, I give you permission to record. And in fact, I think you should, even if it only stays in the archives of the church. Because I would agree secrecy is not good. Confidentiality is super important when the person at stake needs it to protect themselves. Like, I'm a huge confidentiality person. I'm very careful about what I say about clients. Even when I share, like, anecdotes. Like, well, I saw this young woman many times. I'm lying to you a little bit so that you can't. Maybe I saw a young man, really. Or maybe I'm saying they were 20 when really they were 40. Because I do not want any possibility that either the person hearing me is going, oh, my gosh, you're talking about me, or that a person could be like, I think they're talking about so and so. Right. Even if I don't share a name, confidentiality is really important. But any client of mine, and this happens to me all the time, like at Sunstone or whatever. Right. Like, there's lots of people who are like, this is my therapist. I love her. You know, and even that makes me a little uncomfortable just because I'm like, oh, my gosh. People know I'm their therapist now, but that's their prerogative. If they're comfortable saying that I'm their therapist or that I help them and in such and such a way, or that whatever they heard from me was helpful, well, then now that confidentiality is breached by the person who matters.

Confidentiality and Cult Dynamics in the Church

Margi Dehlin [00:26:07] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:26:08] Because they're actually not supposed to protect me. And in fact, if I do harm, in my therapy office, there's an accountability board. And I actually say that in all of my informed consents, if I do something or say something that you feel has harmed your relationship or your. That you think is unethical, that I've practiced in some malpractice type of way. You're to call Doppel here in Utah, the BSRB in Kansas, and they will investigate me. So my confidentiality never matters in that room. So it does beg the question, why are they so worried about confidentiality? Because I think for a long time they tried to say, well, you know, we're protecting the member. We're protecting the member. We can't say anything. And they're actually right when the member doesn't want anything to be said. Right. Like if they're excommunicating somebody for infidelity or gay marriage or, you know, Whatever those things are. Yeah. A lot of people are like, if you say anything about this, I'm going to be. They could get sued. Now, granted, our, our church history doesn't have that. We used to, you know, in our church history, over the pulpit, publicize, like, tell everybody. By the way, brother so and so was excommunicated yesterday because he's been cheating on his spouse. Right. Or so there was kind of like this, this legacy that we have of public humiliation that we actually still do in less overt ways. Like, you can't pass the sacrament. Well, why is that boy not passing the sacrament? You know, Susie Q didn't go to the temple with her young women's group. Right. Or dad is standing outside the temple during the marriage. Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] Of their kids circle of the ordination.

Natasha Helfer [00:27:57] Or you can't be in the blessing. Right. So there. We do still have these public shaming markers that people notice something is off. And we definitely have a culture that tends to assume the reasons are sexual, usually aren't like, huh, I wonder if he was like frauding people financially. No, people are usually like, I wonder if he was looking at porn. Or I wonder if he had an affair. Or I wonder if she, you know, like, you know, got together with her high school boyfriend. Or, you know, like, that's the, that's the gossip that's either happening in person or in the psyche of a personal space, even if you're not talking about it publicly. So that's our culture. Right? That's what we. That's what we come from.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:44] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:45] Public humiliation is a big part of it.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:47] We actually had that in our letter.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:50] So tell me, like, what, what do you mean?

Margi Dehlin [00:28:52] So when we were originally we got the letter that we were being called. Well, John was being called.

Natasha Helfer [00:28:58] I say we. I think it is a we.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:00] Feels like a we.

Natasha Helfer [00:29:01] Yes, I think it is a we.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:02] For the disciplinary council. There was a statement in there. And this is what's so puzzling is there are things in common, but it also appears that there's really. There's no. What's it called, Like a uniform way that they. There's just enough variability for it to feel chaotic to the person it's happening to where you can't really prepare or really entirely know. We had already talked about kind of doing it in secret if it ever happened.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] Just resigning.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:29] Just resigning. And in the letter it said if we resigned, they would announce it from in the stake. So then we were like, now it can't be private, actually, now our kids can't continue to go to church. And it's just something that we kind of know because our kids were all active. So we had the public shaming. We knew if we resigned, they would still announce it and all the people we knew would know.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] And this week I, you know, we interviewed Kyle and Nisha Bro from Kansas, and they resigned because they didn't want the public humiliation and the shame that goes with being tagged as an apostate. But it, but it does go back to this idea that occult. And I'm not saying the church is a cult. I'm just saying there's the saying that says a cult is any institution that won't let you leave with your dignity intact. And it seems like the purpose of excommunication is. The primary purpose is to flag you to the membership as being bad and dangerous and dirty and evil and unworthy. And they're going to get you one way or the other. Either you'll make a public stink out of it, and then that will advertise that they're. That they've designated you as scary and dangerous and evil and bad. Or if you choose to keep it private, they'll. They'll spread the word. So there's no way to just kind of quietly fade.

Natasha Helfer [00:30:57] How does that. I mean, that's really interesting because that wasn't in my letter and I didn't realize that was in yours. How does that fly with their whole confidentiality thing where they say, like, well, we're not allowed to talk to anybody about why, like Margi said, the rules are all.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:12] There's enough variability.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] Like, they're not letting them in and not letting them go to the bathroom. Even the temple recommend holding witnesses weren't allowed to go in the building and use the restroom.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:22] So we can get into that.

John Dehlin [00:31:23] So they're just changing.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:25] Ask you.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] I mean, I think to. Honestly, they're just figuring it out. They're changing the name. It's no longer Disciplinary Council. They're not playing. They're just. We're basically. This is all real time. We're. I mean, I mentioned this before when I saw the September 6th happen back in 1993, I was traumatized, but I was more traumatized by how that sent a chill of silence through Mormonism for the next 10 years. 10 plus years.

Natasha Helfer [00:31:50] Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] And I. So I resolved if this ever happens again, we're not going to just like mouse away quietly. We're going to shine a spotlight. We're going to make it a sacrament. We're going to make it a celebration. We're going to make it a public relations event so that the church. So that. So that the world will see what the church does to people and so that they don't just silence people and intimidate people.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:12] Right.

John Dehlin [00:32:12] And so I think, you know, with. With Kate's and then mine and then Denver snuffer and Bill Real and the Youngs and Sam Young and all the others, they're just like, they're saying, well, what did they do this time? Well, let's make some tweaks. Okay, now what do they do this time? Oh, let's make some tweaks. And so they're changing it real time as we're responding. Real time.

Natasha Helfer [00:32:33] Right.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] Like when I came. When I came up to the window to film you guys this time, because I'd filmed them in the past. I'd even stuck the camera up against the window so you could see who some of the people were. That guy was right there to say, you get off the property with your camera. That was new. They had never.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:49] Leah. You had done that at Leah's, but

John Dehlin [00:32:51] they had never, like, said, you get off our property. Like the guy did.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:54] Exactly. He was like, ready.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] So they're trying to learn and adapt, but that's why it's changing. That's all I'm saying.

Natasha Helfer [00:33:00] So I have a few just responses to some of the things see, and I'm not taking notes. I hope I remember all the responses I have. First of all, it saddens me that we're able to give each other this support when we're public figures. But I'm thinking of all the people that are in the same situation who don't have a bl or don't have a podcast. And so we don't know. We don't know that this is happening to them. So I'm just going to throw out there an idea, like, could we have like a website or someplace where people who need support, who aren't famous or public could reach out and say, hey, you know, I need some support. I'm going through this issue. So that's just a thought I'm having. Maybe somebody can pick up on that and run with it. The other thing that I just noticed as you talked about, the cult stuff, that's a big trigger word, you know, I think in all religions, what's the difference between a religious organization and a cult? And there's some very extreme examples I think most of us would be comfortable calling a cult. Like when the whole congregation dies of suicide, right. Because somebody told them it's time to Go to heaven or something like that. But I just want to point out that I'm not interested in calling the church of cult. And I see even your. You're very quick, John, to say, I'm not saying the church is a cult, but just like depression and just like anxiety and just like addiction, there's actually criteria. There's criteria that people have put together, again, bodies of people, not just one person that have decided what is cult like or cultish behavior. So whether you like, for example, there's like probably like 10 different criteria for depression and you only need like three or four of them to be diagnosed with depression, right? So you don't need to fit every single criteria. You may still have a sex drive and still have hopelessness and suicidal ideation, right? So you can still suffer from depression without every single bullet point. So I really think that our community needs to start like talking about what is the criteria that bodies outside of Mormonism and that aren't really even interested in Mormonism per se, but that are just noticing like this criteria that you just said that it's. That the community makes it difficult to leave without kind of a shunning, you know, like the Amish shun you, like, you can't ever talk to your mother again. Right. If you leave. We're not that severe in Mormonism, but we do have traits of that, right? We have like, there's mild and moderate and severe depression. Well, I think there's mild and moderate and severe cultish behavior. And so I would just say I think it would be healthy for us as a community to kind of start understanding what that criteria is and not be not shy away from, oh my gosh, don't call the church a cult. I don't really want to call the church a cult either. I think that we're a. We're a valid religion, a religious community. But I do think that we have behaviors and traditions that are not healthy. And so that's just another thought. Somebody post the criteria for cults.

John Dehlin [00:36:21] There's a great book called Combating Cult Mind Control by Stephen Hassan. And he actually you can Google right now, influence, undo, influence, continuum. And he's got the bite model where he talks about behavior. You know, cults control your behavior. They. They control the information you receive, they control your thoughts, and then they manipulate you with emotion. And then he goes into each of those bite and gives a detailed explanation of the different criteria. But then he's got this influence continuum because they're in theory are benign cults and then harmful cults and so yeah, there is a really good framework for this.

Natasha Helfer [00:36:59] Like almost every religion is going to use emotion.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:02] Businesses use emotion, advertising uses emotion. Right.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] Military, government.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:07] Right. So it's not like, I don't want to say like, oh my gosh, we're the only ones. No. But we need to like address this in a thoughtful way and be open to that.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] And to be clear, all of us, even the ones who are out of the church, just want the church to be less harmful. Like if, if we could make the church completely cold free, I think we would all agree, like no symptoms, we would, we would all be glad because it would mean that the church would be hurting, harming no one.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:37] Right.

John Dehlin [00:37:37] So I think that's all of our, One of our goals is that the church just harm no one. And we're giving you lots of feedback.

Natasha Helfer [00:37:43] So that, and I think that that's a common goal. I think, you know, when I like when we do mixed faith marriage work, where do we start? We start by helping them understand you probably still have a lot in common. Right. What are your common goals? Your common values, like a non believing spouse and a believing spouse are probably both gonna really wanna parent their children. Well.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:04] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:38:04] So let's figure out how you can do that still, you know, so anyway.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:08] That's right. That's right. So leading up to the actual council and you getting to Kansas, you were feeling, it sounds like. Were you aware that the communication was, was off and not direct and that getting the details was kind of an arduous.

Personal Grievances Raised at the Council

Natasha Helfer [00:38:27] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:27] Okay.

Natasha Helfer [00:38:28] You were saying? The only communication I was given where they gave me information was that first letter telling me about the council. So they didn't tell me what, like even the witnesses, you can have witnesses. So I had to ask, well, does that mean that I could invite. Because I thought I could invite one of my friends, professors who taught me marriage and family therapy. Most of them were Christian and really great professors at Friends University. And was that an adequate witness or did it have to be a temple recommend holder? So I asked those questions and the first thing I got was member in good standing. Well, I didn't even know what that meant. What's a member in good standing? Does that mean they have to have a temple recommend? Does that mean they have to have a calling? Does that mean that they're just members without any disciplinary action? It ended up being members without any disciplinary action. It didn't require temple recommendations to be a witness. So. But those were. I only had that information because I asked. So if I had Shown up with, like, for example, Dr. Dan Lord, who actually came to my vigil. So, Dan, if you see this. Thank you. I just. I have so much respect for that man. And Steve Rathbun and. Oh, just the faculty there at Friends was just so wonderful and loving. Let's say I would have brought him. They could have dismissed the whole thing just because I brought Dr. Dan Lord. And I wouldn't have known.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:55] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:39:56] I wouldn't have even known that that was a. No. No. Right. And. And I asked about the. And, you know, I was given the signature page, and the directions there were, please send this page to all your witnesses. So they didn't communicate with my witnesses. I did. I was given that task to communicate with the witnesses after they were approved, you know, by Steve. And I did that. I sent that page, and I've posted that page on my. On my website or on my Facebook page. And. And he said you could. It would be the best option is that you have it signed by everybody. You bring it to the council. And if you don't do that, we will have a copy of that, will make you sign before you come in. So if you bring it or not, you're not coming in without signing that. So I got that message loud and clear, and I wanted to make the message loud and clear that we signed it. So we were very mindful about that. And I actually put somebody else in charge of that because that's a typical thing I would normally forget. Like, I almost didn't make it to my wedding with my wedding license. That's the kind of person I am. I'm a little flat. So I gave that job to somebody else. And we received that document on Thursday. One of the witnesses had it printed, and we all signed it on probably Saturday, or I think we had it signed and ready to go by Saturday. But then I messed up because I was on the phone with somebody and wanting to take some notes. I just grabbed a piece of paper and started writing on the back of it. And Jody's like, well, there goes our witness statement. So then they had to go print it off again, and we all signed it again. It was just kind of one of those, again, I'm a little kooky, and I was sleep deprived, and I'm not. Organizational skills are not my stressful. Yeah. Organizational skills are not my strength to begin with. So that's the story of the paper. And when I went in, because, remember, they were only letting us in one at a time, and they didn't ask us for that. Paper, like the gentleman who came out. And again, rudely. It's not like he said, hello, Sister Helfer. No. He's like, we'll take you in first. That's pretty much how he addressed me. So there was no like, hello or welcome or sorry to keep you waiting. They didn't keep us waiting. But outside, you know, there was no explanation why we couldn't go into the building. We'll see you first was what I got. He didn't say, do you have the witness statement, you know, or do you have the recording statement? He didn't say anything. So I just went in. I didn't have it. I think Jody or Jana had it in their hands. And right there on the table was the. They were wanting me to sign it. And I was perturbed. I was like, no, we already have it. We have it ready for you. Please invite them in one at a time. Well, then you go out and get it. I wasn't. I. I wanted to be clear that we had come prepared.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:06] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:07] So this little, like, sign it again. I was like, come on.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:11] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:12] Are we in kindergarten or middle school? This feels like a middle school fight.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:16] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:17] I'm not gonna say much about my poor family because they're already, like, so tired about me being public, but it's kind of what they're. It seemed like a middle school fight.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:28] Right. Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:30] Well, in a palate, there was all this. There was all this, like. There was all this hoopla, ooh, there's gonna be a big fight. Everybody meet at this place. And then for little reasons, they weren't willing to engage, which.

Emotions in the Days Leading Up to the Council

Margi Dehlin [00:43:44] Interesting. I was gonna have Natasha back up for a minute and just talk about briefly, your emotions leading up to. And kind of the few days before. I know you can even talk about the rallying and who showed up, because I noticed you did some interviews that were pretty amazing with. That we were talking about. And just what surprised you in those days, the buoying. If you felt buoyed by people and then just your emotions and the toll it takes. I think that's something we definitely. I guess maybe in my Mormon transitions a little bit, but we never really spoke to that as a couple. So that people can kind of get a sense for what it feels like.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:33] Yeah. And this is what was really difficult for me, is that even positive emotion is exhausting.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:38] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:38] Right. So. So I. Because I drew some boundaries with even the people that were at the vigil that had traveled and probably wanted to say hello or give me a hug or, you know, Just little things that people want to offer. And I knew that every hug would be difficult because I would want to engage and I would want to look in their eyes and say thank you. And I knew I just didn't have that bandwidth by Sunday. So I felt really bad. But I'm really grateful that people seem to understand that I just, you know, I waved at them while I. While I was preparing to go in, and I really felt like I felt this profound love from them. And. And I figured they'd get more from talking to each other anyway, like, getting to know other people. Right? So I thought that was great. But, yeah, so. So I did notice that the first week I was feeling a lot of grief and fear and sadness and anger. Right? Those were a lot of the feelings that first week when I was just trying to shut the whole thing down. The second week, by the time I came here on Monday night, and by the time I had made my Facebook, because even before talking to you, I had made like a 20 minute just announcement that this was happening, I felt a lot of acceptance at that point, like, okay, this is going down. And I'd kind of cried all that stuff away that first week. So now what I felt was. So I felt acceptance on Monday and Sunday, I think, or Sunday night when I said, you know, this is happening, and when I talk to you all. But then very quickly after that, as I saw the outpouring of love and I saw the people. Oh, and by the way, on Sunday, Sunday was very intentional for me. Sunday, I made it a very ritualistic Sunday, the Sunday before I announced anything. So I went to the mountains. It was the last day of skiing. I know a lot of people are like, oh, my gosh, she broke the Sabbath. But for me, that was like my Sabbath to go skiing. There's a lot of spirituality in that, for me. Ties me to my father and my grandmother who taught me that. And we've always loved the mountains. And to me, it was just like being in a temple in of itself. I had a great day. I had my music in my ear. I was kind of dancing and skiing, which is a little bit D, and I fell badly. And I have this huge bruise still on my leg. And at first I was like, oh, what a sad thing for this day. But then it was like, no, I'm having a fabulous day. And I fell flat on my face, which is not typical for me. And not because I'm bragging, but because I'm very careful about not falling because I've fallen before, and I Had to have my ACL recovered. So I'm very scared. I have this kind of, like, very cautious way of skiing now, but I fell flat on my face and I had this huge bruise and it hurt, but still had that symbolism of, like, and yet I can still have a great rest of my day, and I can still have a good time. And it really kind of was symbolic to what was happening to me. Like, here I am kind of bruised and hurt, hurt. And I can still get up and do what I do, which is dance and ski.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:04] That's great.

Natasha Helfer [00:48:07] So I did. And then later that afternoon and evening, I went over to Jody England's home. I haven't asked for an official priesthood blessing in a very long time because, again, my relationship with men in the church in particular, as they're monitoring whether or not I'm worthy, has been difficult for a long time for me. But her beautiful husband Mike, who's a dear friend and who has earned my trust many, many times over, gave me a beautiful blessing. I wanted kind of a traditional blessing to honor my Mormon spirituality and rituals that I've been through so many of those. And then I had this circle of women who prayed on my behalf. Jodi and Jana and several others who joined us even on Zoom were there to do that with me. So I was very intentional that I stayed off social media, which I'm a big social media girl. I love to scroll and stuff. So that was hard, but I stayed away from that. I gathered my children around and talked to them about what to expect, that I wasn't going to be a very good mother for a few days. They had to step it up, and that's okay because they're teenagers and they know how to make cereal and peanut butter sandwiches and they can walk down to Del Taco. So I just kind of gave them a little good resilience talk. Julie Diazebedo Hanks would be proud of me, right? Because she's always saying, your kids don't need you to do everything for you. Go, Julie. Go, Julie. So I had a very intentional Sunday to really gather my, My, my peace that I was going to be accepting. Whatever happens, happens. I was not hopeful. I wasn't getting the signal that I was getting the signal that the decision was made because of the letter. It wasn't an invitational letter. It wasn't like, let's have a chat. Let's see. No, it's like, we're holding a council with or without you. And, you know, there had been. No. I had asked again that prior week to talk to my local leaders, all that. No, no, no, no. Okay. So I had like maybe a 2%, hopefully at that point that I would retain my membership. But I was like, you never know, people can surprise you. I'm just. So I was in a very accepting place by Monday. But then came all the support.

Natasha's Letter and Public Statement

Margi Dehlin [00:50:39] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:50:39] So then I had all these other emotions. Like this, just this, like.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:44] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:50:44] The weeping that you saw prior to the, to the, to the, to the Sunday council was mostly just awe, gratitude. And not only that, it was also a bit of vicarious trauma. Because as I was getting all of these thousands, I mean, I. Thousands of letters came in from the entire spectrum of Mormonism.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:12] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:51:13] Like acting bishops to people who were like, you know, f daily or an occult type of letter, you know. So I mean like that's the spectrum of letters that were coming in. And not even like one here and like 500 over here or no, it was like fairly equal. Fairly equal. And that's a five year project now is to figure out what to do with all those letters because I really want to honor if people want, you know, I will not do anything without people's consent. But if people want that recorded as part of this moment that happened in history, in our little Mormon history. I was reading a lot of really difficult stories.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:56] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:51:56] And I even took a break. I kind of got to a point where I'm like, I don't think I can read any more of these because I was having the response that a lot of us as therapists have. Therapists and coaches. We have to do a lot of self care because we're dealing with vicarious trauma as we hold space for the wounds, you know, that are showing up in our, in our rooms. So, okay, so I was feeling all of that. And I was starting to get sleep deprived. And I was very motivated. I had all these ideas. I'm like, I got the letter from the professionals. I'm like, oh my God, that was

Margi Dehlin [00:52:35] such an amazing idea.

Natasha Helfer [00:52:37] Like, and it wasn't just a little letter. It was like masterful journal worthy references to literature. Like, I was shocked because when Lisa said, can we write a letter? I thought it'd be kind of like a page like this. You know, we support Natasha. A lot of us have similar positions. Please don't go through with this. Signatures. That's kind of what I expected.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:01] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:02] And in just three or four days they came up with that masterpiece, which I think a lot of the credit goes to. To Lisa Hansen. I did. And I got an interview with a Lot of the female.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:15] I saw that.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:16] Yeah. A lot of the female LDS therapists who were part of writing it.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:22] Yep.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:24] So did I need to do that that week? Probably not. Like, maybe it would have been better to do that three weeks from now. They probably would have still come on. But I was feeling this, like, fire or flow or motivation, like, oh, my gosh, how did this go down? I wanted to know how it went down. So who wants to come talk about it?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:46] And did you feel like kind of like seizing the moment and.

Natasha Helfer [00:53:49] Seizing the moment and also part of this transparency goal that I had. Right, right, right. Because I think our people need more transparency. I think we need to understand what's happening and why and who are the players and how do other people feel about it? Because it wasn't like. I know, because I've gone to all these conferences with all these colleagues of mine that we're all worried about this kind of stuff. So I didn't want it to be a Natasha versus Steve fight. I wanted it to really shine a light on. No, these are much bigger issues. It's playing out in my life personally, and there's a personal side to that. But no, this really has really big implications. And all my friends and my best friends who are my colleagues are also worried about these things. And they're also managing how they. Language things. And a lot of them are really better at it than I am. And that's why they're not in trouble, because they're very eloquent and they're very thoughtful. I'm more feisty. Right. So I kind of say things how I feel them in the moment. But people like Kristen Hodson and Jennifer Finlayson, Fife and even Julie Dazevedo, and. And I'm like. I listened to them. Lisa Hansen. And I'm like, how do they speak so well, you know, like, they just have this beautiful language. Like, we all come with our different strengths. Right. And I've always really had a lot of respect for people who I just listen. I was just listening to Kristen Hodson on NPR with Doug Fabrizio right before I came here and listening to her talk about this whole dilemma. And even me, I'm like, why are you so brilliant, friend of mine? Like, how. Like, you have a way to talk about this that I have my way. And I. And I'm guessing my way is. Is also, like, valuable. Valuable. And people listen to my languaging and. But she has a way that even I'm like, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm like, I wouldn't have even thought of saying it that way. Way.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:56] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:55:57] So anyway, I have to, I mean,

John Dehlin [00:55:59] I have to ask about that because it's also a matter. Tell me if I'm wrong. You're. As I'm hearing you frame it. I'm here. You frame it a bit as a, as a. As a matter of eloquence or, you know, someone's gift for being articulate. I also think, I wonder if there's also an element of strategy, of. Because something that I've often felt is that silence is the killer. In other words, you know, you could. When I, When I was, when I was active in church, but totally progressive, I was feeling a lot of guilt and shame that I was benefiting with my privilege from all the things I was enjoying. My kids being able to be in young men's and young women's and me being able to enjoy whatever. And then I'm thinking about LGBT people who might be dying by suicide or trans people that don't feel welcome or getting kicked out of this or that service or, you know, just all the ways that people get hurt. And I realized that to just stay silent, and even just to stay silent, except for the clients that I worked with, I felt, I felt like I couldn't do it. I felt like the tax I had to pay to maintain my integrity and to not, you know, and, and to sort of speak up for, for the, for the fact that the church was taking same sex marriage away from, from people in California, the whole Prop 8 thing. I just felt like I couldn't stay active in the church and also stay silent. And so for me, I. It was a matter of like being bad for my mental health to try and just be silent publicly. And so that it's a decision you have to make. And I think we're seeing Julian and Jennifer speak out now, and they've always spoken out in their own ways. But isn't there kind of a continuum of, of how much you want to stay silent publicly, to kind of stay in good graces versus speak out, but speak truth to power and speak out for the marginalized?

Natasha Helfer [00:58:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:23] Is. Is that at all part of it for you? Was it part of it for you?

Natasha Helfer [00:58:26] Well, I think.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] Did you just have a different strategy than Julie or Jennifer? Basically.

Natasha Helfer [00:58:31] So strategy, I think, is a strong word, although I do think that it's an appropriate word in some ways. I think, you know, in Ethics 101, as we all go to graduate school, I think we start wrestling with this issue, how public am I going to be Like, I know a lot of therapists who are like, I don't want people knowing where I live. I don't want people knowing anything about my children. I don't want people. Because we work with a population, and especially depending on the population you work with. I mean, my father's a psychiatrist. For example, my house was. Their house was vandalized twice by a client who was upset. Like, when you're dealing with people in mental health issues, you have a wide variety of people who are dealing with trauma, who are dealing with very serious diagnoses like schizophrenia or personality disorders. So there are therapists who are very mindful that I'm willing to step into this work, but only in a private way, because I have to protect myself, not just from a church, but from my safety, from my personal safety, and for my children's safety. I will never forget. A lot of people don't know this story, but I received a package one time. And if the person who's listening to me is listening to me, I hope that they understand that I share this now with a lot of love and grace, because I think we were able to really make good amends. I don't mean to do. To share this story in a shaming way, but I received a package that had, when I opened it, had materials in it that made me wonder if I wasn't in danger, like, from a pipe bomb type of thing. And I'll never forget my reaction to that. And I kicked it as far as I could into my lawn. And I went into, like, really, like, panic mode. And it was a few years after I had started the blog, the Mormon Therapist Blog. And I cannot tell you, I felt it took the police in Wichita, like, four days to find out who had sent it. And believe it or not, it caught the attention even of the police guy who was in charge of getting the serial killer in Wichita that now escapes my name. There's a famous serial killer that was based in Wichita. So I called the police. It was a female officer who came out, and she immediately called that team after seeing what was in that package. So I went through, like, five days of locking all the doors, closing all the blinds, sleeping with my children. My children were a lot younger and going, what have I done? What? In starting this blog, I have now put myself in a public space where, you know, who knows, who exactly can misinterpret my words. And we have scary stories in Mormonism, right, that are. That are like the whole Nephi story, Nephi killing Laban. There are people that can take that through their own mental health lens and their own trauma lens and see it as something very honorable to get rid of somebody who is causing damage to the overall population. We have that in our Mormon story. I mean, there's a famous book that came out talking about murders of a brother and his sister in law under the banner of heaven. That's a story that talks about how these interpretations can sometimes lead to very dangerous events. So I think we all have strategy to keep ourselves safe, to keep our families safe. I think we also all have strategy in regards to how we are approachable to clients. In fact, we're taught those strategies. In other words, like, I can't go into like a Muslim community and say, I think you're all oppressed by wearing your hijabs. And I don't think that that's healthy for your feminism powers. And it's my mental health responsibility to tell you that this isn't a healthy space for you. Like, first of all, that's completely. That's not even how a lot of Muslim women think about wearing the hijab. And, and it would be totally, completely inappropriate of me whether I thought I had mental health reasons or not to share that with them. So we are taught strategy from day one in our programs to be respectful to culture, to language, to religion, to values. So we're always playing this dance of, well, your religion says that masturbation is a sin, but science says it can be a really healthy thing to do at times. So I think all of us, whether we're secular therapists or religious therapists, are in that dance of meeting our clients where they're at, respecting where they're coming from. And also maybe seeing how some of where they're coming from isn't maybe the healthiest place from our training perspective. Yeah, super complicated.

Being More Direct on LGBTQ and Sexuality Issues

Margi Dehlin [01:04:14] But.

John Dehlin [01:04:15] But I don't think it's probably fair to say they, they didn't come after you for whatever you said in private to your clients.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:23] No, they came after me because of public.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] And that's the type of thing.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:27] Right.

John Dehlin [01:04:27] I think Julie, just to take an example, Julie Diazvedo Hanks and Jennifer Finlays in Fife. My guess is they've been chosen to be way, way more judicious or careful in their public comments. And I'm guessing that was intentional for you to be more direct and to even be overtly critical of certain church policies. True or not? True.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:52] Yeah. And I think that we are all needed. It was kind of like the Kate Kelly situation with, you know, she was more direct in her approaches. There's a lot of Mormon feminists who take, you know, more discreet ways of advocating for the same thing. And most social justice movements need that spectrum.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:14] I so do.

Natasha Helfer [01:05:14] Because if you're all super direct, then the people who are really, there's gonna be a lot of double downing and backfire effects.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:22] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:05:22] You need the people in the middle who can be like, oh, they're trustworthy enough. Which I was feeling like I was trying to do too. Right. I mean, yes, I'm more direct than Julie and, and, and Jennifer, but I'm not as direct as even other people who are. Maybe postmormon or maybe even from other religions that criticize our Mormon church way loud, you know, about some of these things. Like, I go to conferences where the Mormon Church has talked about, like, a hate group. So, and it's not on the official list of hate groups, but organizations where our apostles go and talk are on that hate group. Like some of these family groups, I forget their names, but apostles of ours have gone and talked at organizations that are considered hate groups because of LGBTQ issues. So I, I, I was trying to do that dance, but, and this is where I just bring up my own kind of cultural reasoning. Like, I'm, I have an Argentine mother who, like, won debates at Idaho State University even though English was her second language like two years ago against Americans. So, I mean, I come from a very strong, opinionated, not scared to talk mother figure. But then I also come, you know, my father's side is German and English. I come also kind of from this more stoic, intellectual kind of emotion, less or stuffing type of culture. So, you know, I'm guessing Julie and Jennifer and people like Kristin, they have their own styles that come from their personalities and come from their own heritages and, and their own mothers and fathers and what was modeled. And they do really good work where they are at. And I think that all of those people make some people uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] Yeah. And this isn't to judge anyone's strategy or approach at all. But the one thing I do want to say is in my observations of the Mormon Church over the past 20 or 30 or 40 or 100 years, if we're going to talk about the church moving the needle and actually, you know, making progress, what caused them to roll back polygamy? It was public pressure. What caused them to allow blacks to have black men, have the priesthood and black men and women to be able to go in the temple? And it was public pressure, people speaking out. What happened when, you know, Sam Young for example, started doing marches for the children. Oh, all of a sudden, the church is allowing parents to sit in on those interviews with their kids. And, you know, whether it's feminist stuff or LGBT stuff, like people that speak out help lead the church to change, and people that stay quiet and just work in their own little spheres, they probably have an influence too. But in my observation, it. The church relies on the outspoken critics to. To motivate them to receive revelation. And I say that with a little bit of a grin.

Natasha Helfer [01:08:51] I think some humor.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:52] I think this is perfect because I'm gonna say a yes and Oh, I

Natasha Helfer [01:08:57] love your yes and Mark.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:59] Yes. And I think that's. That's super important. And I do love the idea that everyone mends the sort of corner of the fence that's in their reach. And so if we're talking about affecting change. Yes. But also, like, what if the intention is to relieve suffering along the corner of the fence within their reach? So in the congregations in which they're serving or, you know, within the communities they're building or. And that's what I love about appreciating spectrum, because you get more intentions, and this is all about. Right. Reducing suffering and doing it in a way that honors our particular gifts, personalities, or that. So I love that. And that's a yes. And I just think everyone's part is important. It's an important piece.

Natasha Helfer [01:09:56] And another. And that I would.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:59] It's a yes and.

Natasha Helfer [01:10:00] And yes. So there's a yes and. And that I would add to John's thing is that for every one of those things that you mentioned, there were progressive people in the church already talking about those things. You know, like the Darius Grays and the. I know that there are progressive people on a lot of these committees, even the correlation Committee, who are talking. Talking about these things. And so when that. When these kind of nuanced progressive members who are doing some work from within mixed with that very strong public pressure.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:34] That's right.

Natasha Helfer [01:10:35] That's a nice equation. Yeah. A little stew going on to help the movement. Now, you know, I know that the church could care less about my advice, but here's some advice. And I was talking to Jennifer Gonzalez today, by the way. I consulted with her because I think she's much more adept at addressing some of these more systemic issues, and especially from the perspective of white supremacy and patriarchy, these systems. Right. That infiltrate so much of our country, regardless of whether it's a religion or a business or the government. So somebody like that would be. And I'm Actually going to podcast with her, hopefully in the next few days. But what I think just from my own little silly perspective, which is not as systemic, is that the church has a real attachment to revelatory power. They get a lot of their own credibility. Just like I get my credibility from my degrees and from my data and from my anecdotal experience. They get a lot of credibility from being the one and only true church and for really claiming these revelatory keys and priesthood keys. And so I wish that I feel like they can still claim that. And it's actually a beautiful thing to claim because it means that change is going to be part of our spiritual journey as a church. You know, the idea that you need ongoing revelation. A lot of people thought we were blasphemous, right? Like a lot of the Christian traditions at the time of Joseph Smith was like, the canon is the canon. You can't change the canon. Like, that's blasphemy. So we actually come from this kind of healthier tradition. And I know that's a little triggering maybe because there's a lot of unhealthy tradition too. But this healthier tradition of there's room for growth, there's room for change, there's room for more doctrine, and there's room for even more scripture, right? So there's a lot of room for. And the community of Christ, I think, has done a really beautiful job of, of taking this seriously. This, you know, of adding like they have their doctrine and covenants, has some of our doctrine and covenant stuff, but they all. They've added to it continually as social justice issues come up. And they do ordain their females and they do have gay marriage and, you know, same gender marriage. And so anyway, I think if I could just give a piece of advice is there needs to be, first of all, some acceptance or maybe less fear that you'll lose that authority if you listen to other people. Because I think the only way they see that authority is really. And why we see the changes after the excommunication of Sam Young. Well, no, Sam Young doesn't have the right to have that revelation. Only we have the right for that revelation. And so we'll get rid of him, but then we'll claim revelatory powers of the changes, that we're obviously being influenced by other people anyway. So they need to understand that we see that we're not dumb, we're actually not kindergarteners. And so a lot of us struggle to make sense of that, like just own it. Say you're Sorry. We can make mistakes and still be a revelatory church. We can own our shiz and we can listen to the expertise and to the lived experience of people and have the humility. See that's, that's, I think that's the Christ like trait that they encourage all of us to have. And, and that's been a very helpful teaching for me because I do struggle with humility. I can be very feisty and I'm right and you're wrong and my way or the highway. But so those teachings about humility have been very important for my self development as a, as a professional, as a mother, as a spouse and a partner. I think they need to take a little bit of their own medicine and mix that in there with. You can still claim keys, you can still claim revelatory power if that's the language you want to use. Mixed in with a heavy dose of humility, you could really have a much healthier approach to a lot of these more controversial issues, I think. Yeah, but that's again more free advice that they usually don't either obviously pay me for or, or listen to, but I still give it. I'm, I'm willing.

Community Support Over the Council Weekend

Margi Dehlin [01:15:08] So moving, so I hear kind of moving into the council weekend. You feeling a sense of both feeling really grateful and feeling bolstered by the support and feeling overwhelmed and not sleeping a ton and going into it feeling quite exhausted. Yes.

Natasha Helfer [01:15:33] And feeling the grief. Really the grief for me was this was supposed to be my last weekend with Nicholas, my son, you know, before he graduates from high school. And he was having a lot of fun times and prom, getting ready for prom and, and getting ready for. He had a track meet that I was so excited to see him at and I did engage in all those things, but nowhere near as much as I wanted to. And he was super gracious, but I could tell he was sad and disappointed at times. So that was probably the most traumatic thing for me is that here because I desperately wanted to be part of this event. But sometimes I wonder, should I have just said I can't do it and I'm going to spend the whole weekend with my kid anyway, you know, so that, that will probably not me for a while. At the same time, my kids are resilient, my kids are forgiving and my kids are awesome and they have good social networks. So, you know, I go back, mother guilt is. I always go back to Julie on that one. Every time I have mother guilt now I think of Julie like looking at me like with her cute little face. Going, Natasha. I'm like, okay, okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:52] Brilliant, brilliant. See Julie's influence everywhere.

Natasha Helfer [01:16:56] That's right. So. Because she does some really good work on mother guilt and the role of motherhood and how we as mothers and. And it's not just Mormon mothers. I mean, this is like.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:08] That's right. Something.

Natasha Helfer [01:17:09] National catastrophe. Even psychiatry blamed mothers for everything for a long time. Schizophrenia was blamed on mothers. Homosexuality was blamed on two attached mothers. It's not just religion. I mean, my field has harmed people, too. So I don't trust my field 100%. But I do trust that we autocorrect a lot better than religion does because we have processes like the scientific method. And the way you make it as a professional is to challenge another professional. I can prove their theory wrong, and my theory is better. So that kind of energy is very different than kind of the conformity that is expected in most religious communities. At some level that makes sense. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:02] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:18:02] So. Okay, but let me pause here for a minute. Let me ask you guys these questions. What was it like for you the week before? I mean, these are not really conversations that I've had with you. And I know it was a while ago, and maybe you don't want to talk about it, because I know, Margi, sometimes you're like, I don't want to give energy, really, to crappy parts of my life.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:25] But no, it's more. I have, like, a terrible memory around some certain times, and I actually think around painful events or where I have a lot of anxiety. Oftentimes I don't remember, but I remember general themes. What would you. How would you answer that? What do you remember about the week before? You. You were doing some of this. Some similar things, talking to paper. Newspapers.

John Dehlin [01:18:50] And for me, it was super highly stressful because I didn't have, like, a PR team, you know, so I'm talking all these newspapers and all these TV stations and putting out statements to respond to things that were being claimed here and there. Apologists or the church. And I'm trying to write press releases and trying to help. People are asking about vigils, and I'm trying to share information here and there and talking to the media, and so just like a huge whirlwind. I felt overwhelmed and like I couldn't handle it all. And all the people messaging me and all the people giving advice and. And trying to balance all that. It just was overwhelming.

Natasha Helfer [01:19:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:33] Emotionally.

Natasha Helfer [01:19:34] And I can totally relate to all of that.

John Dehlin [01:19:36] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:19:36] I remember thinking that, like, every time I ask Steve a question, he probably has a Lawyer or somebody telling him how to respond to me. Law firm. Yeah, they're. They get to be represented by a legal team. I wasn't able to. And. And I actually. I actually took that very seriously, actually. I. I didn't want a lot of influence. I really wanted. I. I listened to a lot of people. You know, John, you gave me some thoughts, and Greg Prince was giving me thoughts. Joanna Brooks was giving me thoughts. Like, a lot of really wonderful people came to offer some of their wisdom. At the end of the day, I. I wanted it to be yours.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:21] Me.

Natasha Helfer [01:20:21] Like, this is my response. This is how I'm thinking through it. And I really grabbed onto this transparency model. Like, I'm just gonna.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:29] Yeah, be me.

Natasha Helfer [01:20:31] I'm gonna share what's going on. I'm gonna. Unless somebody tells me it's confidential. There have been a few confidential conversations that I won't disclose because that was asked of me. But the letter didn't say anything about confidentiality. This was happening to me. So I tried to. To just take that approach, but I. I totally relate to that pressure and that saying things that maybe later you'd regret. And of course, you know, anytime with journalism, it's always funny to hear the story. You talk to a journalist, right? And then the story comes out and you're like, well, that's not exactly what I meant. Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:10] Or every time.

Natasha Helfer [01:21:11] Yeah, that's not exactly. Or they'll take the one sentence, but it can be kind of taken out of context because the other three sentences explain that sentence. So I can totally relate to all that, John.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:24] But I remember for me, that one thing that kind of was stressful and came to a head in that time was how split I felt, because I felt. I. So John felt really strongly about shining a light on the process, which I felt for. But we had young kids still, and we lived in Logan, and so I felt really split where I'm also a private person overall, so I could feel for what. For what his intention was and felt like it was really important. And I felt it was important for the community, too, not just for us. So you kind of have this sense of, like a public responsibility almost, or an offering. But then I felt this tension, too, with our kids and what's best for our family and what it would mean. And sometimes in the moment, you don't know what you don't know. You don't know how it's gonna affect. And we've since done an interview where I interviewed John about this. The things we didn't see, the effects of it that, you know, affected our kids till now. I mean they're still. And so I remember feeling just this extreme tension, confusion and stress because it all felt, I feel like larger than us. And yeah, it was, it was something.

Natasha Helfer [01:22:55] Yeah. So, so many, so many responsibilities. I felt that too. Responsibility for my clients, the responsibility for my public, responsibility for my family, Responsibility for my self care.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:09] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:23:10] I mean, goodness. I mean, I've canceled two weeks of my clients. That's unheard of for me. And it's also unheard of that I've done it. Like anytime I have to cancel clients because I'm sick or because something came up, travel like I always send them a note. I look at who I'm canceling. Is there somebody that maybe, you know, even though I'm struggling, I should probably make some energy for? Like, I haven't done any of that. So I'm just putting out there like a public apology to anybody who's my client right now that yeah, there's. There has not been a lot of care that I've been able to offer. Like I typically am able. I usually have the bandwidth to manage my own personal issues and my clinic. And that hasn't happened for two weeks. My staff is managing it. But I'm guessing there's some mixed feelings there for my clients that I may have to repair or do some repair work with people that I've either have either felt ignored or maybe I've messaged incorrectly or there's a variety of things that. There's probably some wounds there that I'm gonna have to face next week and I'm super willing to do it, but that makes me sad. Yeah, it makes me really sad. So I think all mental health professionals at some level, and we all are, you know, because Margi do a lot of coaching and you're very mindful in your practice. And we carry responsibilities that are heavy. I see that in first responders, like through the COVID I see that through doctors and nurses. I see that. You know, my partner now, Joe, had a 25 year career in paramedicine. The stories he has, the ways he had to cope with managing his own personal life while watching super deep, like visceral trauma. It's one thing to see, you know, sit with emotional trauma at the. It's another thing to watch somebody kind of die in front of your eyes and not be able to save them. I mean, there's so many of us that carry these kinds of wounds and not just mental health professionals. So when we're going through our own personal shiz. It's tough. And parents, and we're parents, many of us, right. How many ER doctors didn't see their families for weeks because they didn't want to contaminate their own kids? I mean, yeah, so much pain, right? Like, we're all going through a lot of pain. It's a lot. Well, do you want to talk a little bit about just kind of our experiences getting to the place? Because I. And I don't know if I've already. Sometimes I forget what I've talked about and what conversations. I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself, but. But my expectation, arriving to the place. And first of all, I was really very pleased that I arrived in calm. And do you know what? I want to give credit to that. The Queen station on Pandora.

Arriving at the Stake and the Scene Outside

Margi Dehlin [01:26:26] Oh, brilliant.

Natasha Helfer [01:26:28] Because there were a lot of things that happened on that Sunday that was just. I don't know if you want to call it divine intervention or just serendipity, but first of all, I was wanting to write my thoughts a lot more for the presentation that whatever I was going to have to do. My computer shuts down. Well, crap. John, can you go figure out my computer, please? And in the meantime, I'm going to listen to self care, right? Self care. I've got self care. So I'm going to listen to meditative, like Reiki music and just sit here in my bed and. And I press a button thinking it was the Reiki station. I must have pressed one or two above and all of a sudden another one bites dust. Another one. And I was like, well, this is.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:16] That can work.

Natasha Helfer [01:27:17] This is like. This is an interesting message the universe is sending me right now. But what it did is it got me up and it got me moving and I love to dance. And I was. I don't know, John, you were in the front room. I don't know what the reaction was, but I'm sure from the bedroom where I was at, all of a sudden you could hear me stomping. I was stomping my boots and I was singing out loud and I was. I was using my body. And. Oh, that felt so good. It felt so good. Like all of this stress and tension that you don't even realize you're carrying. Like, I just got it out of my body. And then song after song, you know, don't stop believing that one came on. Like, I'm like, what the heck is happening with this station? It was like 10 or 11 songs before John was able to come back and go by the way your computer's broken and every single song was like amazing. So I think that got a lot of my angst out and my stress. So when I walked up to the building and drove there with Andy, I was like, I was really feeling calm. Like, whatever happens, happens. I wasn't feeling like anger or, you know, I'm gonna show them. I wasn't. I wasn't feeling. I was just like calm. I saw my witnesses. I walked up to them. Hi, how are y' all doing? That's when they started talking about this bathroom thing. So I kind of was like, wait, what's going on? You know, and like, like I was starting to ask.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:47] That was really soon, huh?

Natasha Helfer [01:28:49] Yeah, pretty quick. Well, because they were there before me and they had asked to use the bathroom because they, you know, two of them, I think, needed to use the bathroom while they were waiting. So they had already had kind of a negative experience I didn't realize they had had. So I started being like a little bit like, wait, what's going on? But then pretty quickly, John saw me and came over. And then the guy came out and was like, get off the property. And just his tone and that, that's when I felt that, like that self protective, like, oh, no, you don't. You don't treat my people like this. And sorry, John. It was definitely. I felt that towards you, but I felt it super bad for my women. I felt it super strong. I was like, well, John, he expects that probably, or he has to deal with that all the time. I don't like it that you have to experience that. But. But I feel like you and I are fairly resilient. I didn't feel like some of my witnesses were resilient. I felt like some of my witnesses were having their first experience with unrighteous dominion that I've been having for 20 years.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:55] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:29:56] So for me, it wasn't a new thing to experience unrighteous dominion. It wasn't a new thing to be ignored. It wasn't a new thing to be like, oh, sister Helfer, just move along. That's a stupid idea, right? I mean, I've been dealing with that my whole, whole professional career.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:10] Right?

Natasha Helfer [01:30:14] So that. That's when that intense. And I've talked about that. That. That's. Unfortunately, that's. I learned that through my father's anger. I learned that response. And I don't mean to malign my father because he was also a very great father in many ways. But in some ways, his temper management was not healthy for our family. So that's the feeling I immediately had. So then I was on the defensive going in. I was still calm. I wasn't like, you know, like, middle fingering everybody or anything. I was calm, but I was now firm and tense. And then, you know, I was noticing the one by one and the silly requests. And then I was just like. And then while I was in there the first time, when they said, you know, you have to turn off your phone, I was just normal voice, like, no, I can't do that. I'm not willing to do that. That's where I have my notes. That wasn't explained to me. That was kind of the tone I was using. By the second time, I had raised my voice because I wanted them to hear me, the three men that I was guessing was in that room. So I said, this wasn't part of the contract, you know, like. So I had that kind of tone. And then as soon as he said no, I didn't even. I was just like, I'm out. Like, I. I don't have any energy for this. This is ridiculous. I'm not gonna plead, I'm not gonna ask. I'm not gonna try to come up with. Like, to me, this just signaled what the original letter signaled. We're really not interested in having a conversation with you.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:48] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:31:49] That wasn't the point to begin with. We're willing to play the game a little bit and let you come in here and say a few things, and we'll nod our heads and basically tell you you're still wrong. And that was the plan all along. Right. So I wasn't interested in trying anymore at that point. So. But I guess so that. So we're. I was expecting the chapel to be locked at first, for them to come and open the door and invite me and my witnesses into, like, a lobby area where we have the couches and the. You know, you talked about the Relief Society room. And then I was expecting us to be called back one by one, and then we'd leave. And I was also expecting not to get an answer that night because I figured they would take time to deliberate. And I also think that's a PR thing. They don't want to give you an answer in front of your whole crowd, or especially if it's a negative answer that everybody's going to get even more riled up. So I wasn't expecting an answer that night, but that was my expectation. And instead we had this. We were. It was the side door. It wasn't even, like, the main lobby door. So it was a door. It was one of those doors in the stake Centers that just kind of goes into a little, tiny hallway. Like, there was probably, I would say, 10ft, 12ft between the front door and, like, the Jesus Christ picture. And so it was just a tiny little hallway. And you could tell that there was a room to the right where they were, whatever room that was maybe a Relief Society room or a council room or something. And then there was a left, which I'm sure went on a hallway where all the classrooms are. That's my guess. So it was a very small. And there was a table in the middle. So I only had, like, four feet of space to have this conversation in. I felt like I was, like, trying to enter a prison or something. Like, it was really weird. I did not expect that at all. And then there were two men that felt like bouncers. That's kind of feeling. And the Relief Society president that I had invited was behind them kind of. And I could just see. I could just tell she was uncomfortable. Her body language was uncomfortable, as, of course, we don't even know each other. I haven't been there. She hasn't been my Relief Society president ever. So what was your experience? Like, did we already talk about this, Sam? Tired.

John Dehlin [01:34:16] It's okay. Yeah. So. So what. How did it. How did it shake out? Well, then I remember some point, you come up, you come back out.

Natasha Helfer [01:34:28] Yeah. So I came out, and I didn't even really. I didn't even have the energy to tell Andy or the ladies what had happened. So I just walked away. I saw you kind of like, you know, the crowd was like, oh, Natasha. I was like, I can't. You know, I asked you to not follow me with the recording. I asked for Clint and Jenny because I just needed time to kind of just calm down and. Because I figured what would happen next is that they would then invite the witnesses in to the same process. Right. Like, they would call in Andy and they would say, turn off your phone. Right. And sign the document. I thought that all of them were going to go through that process and that I would just have to wait the half an hour or whatever that the witnesses would take. And I didn't really want to engage with the crowd while I was waiting to see.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:19] Got it.

Natasha Helfer [01:35:19] Who would be able to go in or not. But instead they just came out. Well, I guess Jody has talked about it. She wrote a thing on Exponent, Exponent magazine, so you can go read her article there. But she said the Relief Society present came out first and they're like, what's going on? And the relief side president was like, well, they told me to go home. And the ladies were like, well, wait a minute. We want you to be there with us when we go in. So everybody was still expecting. I mean, whether I went in or not, I still had the right for witnesses to go in. Like, what if I hadn't been able to show up? And.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:56] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:35:57] I still had the right to have public witnesses go in. And then. So she went. I think she faltered. And then the guy came out. Like, she was kind of like, well, do I stay? Do I not? You know, the relief side president? And then the guy, the same guy who just was acting very much like the word that they don't like me using, he came out and just basically said, you're. You're all dismissed. It's over. And then, you know, Jody and Jana pleading, like, wait a minute, but we prepared. We. We flew here. Some of them were crying. Andy, like, with these five women he barely knows. Right. But feels kind of maybe that masculine, protective energy for, like, how do I help these women? And he himself, you know, being rejected by people that he has served with and who he's worked with.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:58] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:37:00] To me, I. I was not expecting it to go that bad, but I was not expecting it to go well.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:08] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:37:09] I was expecting it to go cordially. Cordially, where we could all be cordial. We could disagree, we could agree to disagree, and I'd probably get the X anyway. That's what I was expecting. But I was not expecting cruelty, and I was not expecting my witnesses to not be able to even be asked the same question. I was right, because some of them did have their papers ready. Some of them, I think, would have said, yeah, sure, I don't. I don't need to bring in my phone. So that got me, you know, the. The bit of anger and angst that I felt that night was due to how my witnesses were treated and how my, you know, ex husband Andy was treated. It was just. It was cruel. It was cruel. It was. They didn't honor their time. They didn't honor their sacrifice. They didn't honor their finances. They didn't honor their families who they had traveled and been away from. They didn't honor their callings and the fact that these women are active, and they didn't honor even the chapel building because the chapel building belongs to the people. We pay for that with our tidings. Yeah, they didn't. It's not the temple where you have to. We all understand, you know, you have to follow certain things to go in. Now, this is a. A homeless person can walk in on Sunday and join our congregation. And I hope they do. Right? I mean, we don't. Yeah, we don't leave. What's the. What's the sign outside? All visitors welcome. So they didn't even honor our building.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:47] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:38:50] So, yeah, I. I was pissed. I bet I was pissed. And rightfully so. And if. Yeah, this is just kind of a loving thing. If y' all Mormons don't know how to feel, I get it, because y' all come from, like, WASPy type cultures. But that I feel. I feel and I feel strongly and sometimes that maybe can come across as, like, unhinged or a little wonky doodle. And I think some people were worried about that. Like, is she losing it? And I'm like, no, I'm just doing my Latina thing, because I am, like, pissed off. Like, I saw my mother be pissed off at us when we were kids, and she wasn't scary, but she was loud, and she talked for, like, three hours when she was pissed with us. So it's like a normal day for. That's what Jennifer Gonzalez said to me this morning. She's like, oh, that's a typical Tuesday for any of our mamitas. And I was like, okay, good. I wasn't crazy.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:53] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:39:54] Anyway, and I get it. I get that Andy calls it my rage eyes. I get those, you know, And I get intense. So I get that. I know that that's how I present. And I've worked really hard on that. To not do that in sessions or to not do that in professional spaces, and even not to always do it in my home, because sometimes that energy is scary or too much. And so I kept that about myself.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:21] I think one thing that's important to kind of note in scenarios like that, and that's why when I was talking about it initially in our. Like, before your council, I was talking about it being of a part. A power, like a definite abuse of power. Is that when. This is my opinion, but when you've had experiences with abuse of power before, and then you're in a situation like that, you are feeling all of the prior abuses. It is a layered experience. You're not just having one experience with those. You're having this very visceral experience of all those other times. And I think that's important to acknowledge for as women, you know that in that moment, you likely were having a cumulative experience.

Natasha Helfer [01:41:13] Totally agree with that. Margi Ciero is so wise. You are. I want to thank you publicly for tremendous amounts of wisdom you've offered me. Tremendous.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:27] Thank you for that. Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:41:29] As a friend and as a coach, you have offered me pearls of wisdom this last two years that have been so difficult for me. You have ministered to me.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:41] You've done the same for us. Yeah.

John's Account of the Day's Events

Natasha Helfer [01:41:46] All right, so since I'm crying, John, why don't. I would love to hear. I haven't had a chance to talk to you since I came back. What the heck happened? What was your experience? How were the people that you talked to? What was it like to be in my home on Sunday where it was like a little wonky doodle? Like, I'd love to hear your story.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:08] And I'm curious if there was anything that surprised you, because you've gone to quite a few excommunications, so I feel like you've got quite a comparison you could do.

John Dehlin [01:42:19] But were you surprised if there's an excommunication, John? Is there?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:24] Seriously? You're like the traveling.

John Dehlin [01:42:28] I got it. I got it.

Natasha Helfer [01:42:29] Well, and you get to see all parts of the country. Like, would you ever have gone to

John Dehlin [01:42:32] wichita, Kansas, Houston, St. George, Ohio? Like, where do the Youngs live? I'm trying to remember.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:42] Yeah. Ohio.

John Dehlin [01:42:42] Yeah. Somewhere in Ohio.

Natasha Helfer [01:42:44] Somewhere in Ohio.

John Dehlin [01:42:46] Some town in Ohio. Yeah. It's glamorous.

Natasha Helfer [01:42:50] It's very good.

John Dehlin [01:42:52] Okay, what were. So let's see. I, I was surprised at how many people were in your house the, the day of. You had, I don't know, 10, 15 people there. There was a full buffet spread. And, you know, it's all the relief society had showed up and were doing their thing.

Natasha Helfer [01:43:11] That was Carlene Williams who brought all the food. She's amazing.

John Dehlin [01:43:17] Lots of food. It was really nice.

Natasha Helfer [01:43:19] Members of her family let us borrow a car.

John Dehlin [01:43:24] I think that it's totally true that you wanted this to be. You didn't want. You were not looking for, like, strategy or planning. You wanted this to be yours. So there were, you know, there were ways that that was communicated to me just right.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:39] And that's good, which is healthy.

John Dehlin [01:43:41] Like, this is Natasha's thing that I

Natasha Helfer [01:43:43] totally shut you down. Was I totally routine?

Margi Dehlin [01:43:47] No, that's healthy.

Natasha Helfer [01:43:48] I mean, and it wasn't just you. It was Clint. It was Andy. It was like, all these men that were trying to help. And I was like, everybody, zip it. Especially if you're a man. Just sit back.

John Dehlin [01:44:02] I, I wanted. I, I, I was just there to help if I could help. So, yes, I came, you know, Ready to help in all sorts of ways. But I also was just trying to

Margi Dehlin [01:44:12] be quiet and honor Natasha's experience and

John Dehlin [01:44:15] just listen and see how I could show up.

Natasha Helfer [01:44:17] And you all did. I will say all of the men did do that.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:22] That's good.

Natasha Helfer [01:44:23] So thank you.

John Dehlin [01:44:24] Now, this wasn't a place to assert patriarchal privilege. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:27] Can you imagine?

John Dehlin [01:44:28] It was not a patriarchal zone.

Natasha Helfer [01:44:29] That was not gonna work. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:35] So you were in a zone. I've never, I've worked with you for 10 plus years. I've never seen you in that state before, ever.

Natasha Helfer [01:44:45] And I'm perfectly comfortable you talking about what it's like.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:48] I can attest to his zone. Yeah, he was in his zone as well.

Natasha Helfer [01:44:52] You mean when he was going to.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:55] I'm, I'm just saying for the experience.

Natasha Helfer [01:44:57] Yeah. I would love to know what you observed because I don't even know how I was different.

John Dehlin [01:45:02] I mean, I, it, You were kind of giving sermons like you were pacing. Everyone was kind of looking around. You were giving sermons to all of us, kind of lecturing, kind of processing, probably. Processing? Crying.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:23] Yeah, that's processing.

John Dehlin [01:45:26] And for the first couple hours it was, you know, but by the third or fourth hour, some of us were like, is she okay? Is she gonna be okay? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I, I think there was a part of me there. Some of us were like, is she okay? Honestly?

Natasha Helfer [01:45:51] And that's okay to talk about.

John Dehlin [01:45:53] Yeah. Like, we were kind of thinking, is, is there some mania going on? Not in a way to stigmatize anyone or.

Natasha Helfer [01:46:00] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:46:01] Pathologize you or. But it was just like, is she okay? It was like, has she had enough sleep? Is she at her wits end? Is she running on fumes? Is she totally safe? You know, like, yeah, we were, all those things are going. And I, you know, I thought,

Natasha Helfer [01:46:21] you

John Dehlin [01:46:22] know, I wouldn't say Bill and Sam acted that way, you know, but none of us had been women in the church, you know, and none of us, I, I, I'll just say this. There was a very strong, you wanted female support, and there was a very strong sense that this was not the time for the men, which was totally appropriate. But in all, you know, in all I've seen with Kate and, and what I saw with Kate and with, with some other things, like there's a strong female reaction to being abused by the patriarchy and having lived under the thumb of the patriarchy for 40, 50 years, that I think elicits some emotion and some reactions that men just can't, would never be able to quite understand. Were you feeling some of that?

Natasha Helfer [01:47:15] Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. And I was even shutting down some of my women. Like, looking back, I, I think I owe Janice Spangler an apology. I owe Jody England an apology just because. And they're trying to help. I would often interrupt or shut down their ideas very quickly, you know, and I'm, I'm gonna have all of those conversations. And I do. And this is the, this is what I was talking with Jennifer about today and in specific, because I wanted to ask her as, you know, Latina sister per se, like, because I'm always very willing to do self awareness work. I actually, I'm to the point that I really welcome it. I welcome like people saying, you're not doing that right, or, you know, whereas earlier on in my career, that would really make me very insecure or I'd have a defensive approach, you know, or defensive posture. But, but so I wanted to ask like, you know, what do you think? Do you think I was manic or kind of ill or, you know, and she had some really great framings and I'll talk more about that in my podcast with her. But, you know, she reminded me, manic energy isn't always unhealthy. Some of the best things that have come out of humanity come from manic energy. And that's true, like Van Gogh's work a lot of times, a lot of literature, a lot of poetry, A lot of, of flow comes from these spaces where you're just like kind of facing something, you know, very difficult. And, and even as a mental health clinician, you know, we talk about like, for example, postpartum psychosis, something that a person would never have in their normal life. But because of the stress of a birth or whatever, you can have mental health symptoms that aren't typical to your regular experience. Right. So I do agree that I had some manic energy. I also don't know that I regret anything I said or anything that, you know, even that I wrote, because I was. A lot of people are like, oh my gosh, you're like posting like every five minutes, you know, or you're. Because I did. I had a lot of ideas and I had a lot of energy. But I go back and I'm like, I mean, really, I've only changed a few spelling errors, so I'm okay with. I, I'm sorry you all had to put up with me for six hours, but, but I, Yes, I can. So there's this interesting interplay between not being well but still being very well that I'M still trying to understand myself and.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:55] Well, given that the situation was completely inhumane and unnatural.

Natasha Helfer [01:50:01] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:02] So the response. I think that's what's really difficult is to put. Is to try and talk about. I was talking about this with Leah. Like, when you try to relate it to someone who hasn't gone through it, I just. I think it's really difficult to do.

Natasha Helfer [01:50:19] Yeah. And that's true of anything.

John Dehlin [01:50:21] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:50:21] Like a death of a child or being a widow or going through a faith transition. Like, why do all of our believing family members not understand the people who are leaving? Well, because until you go through it yourself, you can be sympathetic, you can have compassion, but you don't really get it.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:39] Yeah. And so that observation can be something that's really disorienting, maybe for people who are not in the position to do that. But I just thought it was interesting, the shutting people down. Because that, to me, speaks of overwhelm.

Natasha Helfer [01:50:55] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:55] That's just like, there's. I have too much.

Natasha Helfer [01:50:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:57] Nope, not you. Nope, not you. Which I. I think is completely understandable, given the situation.

Natasha Helfer [01:51:04] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:05] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:51:06] Yep. So tell me more about you and your experience.

Rituals, Support, and Emotional Processing

John Dehlin [01:51:12] Well, there was a really. Let's just say there were some rituals that you guys held that aren't mine to share that were very emotional, very powerful, and I don't know if you want to talk about that, but I mean, that. That. That those are kind of the closing things that happened right before we left. And I just. I don't. I don't feel like I have any right to talk about that.

Natasha Helfer [01:51:40] Yeah. And I think if I ever talk about those things, I'll. I'll talk to Jana and Jody and some of the women that were there first. And we made. We may decide to have a podcast about that together if we do.

John Dehlin [01:51:51] But you were.

Natasha Helfer [01:51:51] But we did. We did. We took a very meditative, spiritual, prayerful approach to preparing ourselves for this moment.

John Dehlin [01:52:02] And there are these moments where you held the letters and you held the. The, you know, the. The letters that have been sent to you and that were bound. And also the letter that was written by the mental health professionals. And I mean, just quite frankly, you were sobbing over those letters.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:25] Were you carrying all those stories? Were you feeling sort of the weight?

Natasha Helfer [01:52:29] They were there. They were in my hands. And I just. That was that awe. That was that, like, gratitude and awe, and also just the vicarious trauma, too. We're like, here's so many letters that represent. And everything I've been about professionally. It was validating, sadly validating. Like I was right. You're causing harm and the vulnerability. I mean, I was just like honored. Like, who am I to have deserved any type of this, this, these books. I was just overwhelmed with awe and gratitude and also pain. Like, just that, like so many people are hurting. And this only represents, you know, what we know. Right. Like when one letter gets written to Congress, it represents probably like 200 people. Right. One person wrote what 200 people are thinking something. There's a statistic that I'm probably not getting.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:30] Right? Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:53:31] Yeah. So. Yes. What was that like for you to witness all these women that were acting very differently than maybe you normally experience, John?

John Dehlin [01:53:44] I mean, I'll just say that you and I have worked, I would say, in a very clinical settings for the past 10 years.

Natasha Helfer [01:53:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:53:54] And there's always been sort of like, well, John's maybe less of a believer and Natasha, still more, is more of a believer than John, you know what I mean? And I did. I've never really known what that meant because we haven't really, we haven't really drilled into that in our personal interactions for me to really know. And one thing that was very clear to me is that you really do still have a very sincere and meaningful spiritual side and belief side to you. That's. That's very different for me. And that came out in a way I'd never seen before. I'd never seen you pray. I'd never seen you pray sincerely. And yeah, so that, that was something. I can't say it was like out of the realm of what I considered possible, but I saw a spiritual side to you. That. Yeah, that was kind of the first time I'd ever seen that.

Natasha Helfer [01:54:52] Yeah. And I purposefully don't publicize that because I don't ever want, you know, and even when we say pray, a lot of people might assume that that means a certain thing. But for me, it may mean something. It may not mean literal, it may not mean. It can mean a lot of different things to me. So. And I've never wanted my spirituality to get in the way of the work that we are doing, which are people's faith journeys. And I want to be able to be there with the person who's like, f the church, I'm out and I'm atheist and I never. We're going to be dirt food, you know, worm food after we die. I'm like, you go like, I'm there with you. I can totally understand that. And I can. And I can be with a person who's like, I'm gonna, you know, put my name on the prayer, roll, the temple and. Because I think my sibling really needs help right now. And I'm like, yeah, I get that. And I hope, too, that as I shared my family's witnesses, what was so touching to me about my family's witnesses?

John Dehlin [01:55:49] Oh, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, your brother.

Natasha Helfer [01:55:51] Like, you can see the spectrum there. I loved that. Right. I've got believing siblings. I've got non believing siblings. I've got, in between siblings. I've got a mother who's, like, raging about polygamy. So I get it.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:10] That was powerful. And I felt like it was such powerful modeling, too, of coming together, rallying. Even though that's great differentiation, but what

Natasha Helfer [01:56:19] matters, each one of us have a very different relationship with Mormonism in my family. And I loved that.

John Dehlin [01:56:26] Do you know, I just had a realization, and my. My back is tingling in that Holy Ghost kind of way.

Natasha Helfer [01:56:33] Oh, I love it, John.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:34] Look at you. And you.

John Dehlin [01:56:35] But it's also kind of a sad, sad, dark thought. I felt excluded, I'll just say, from a certain. From the circle. I'm saying that metaphorically. I felt excluded from the circle. And it is not until right now that I realized that that's what women feel all the time.

Natasha Helfer [01:56:55] That's beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:56] I'm glad you did that work.

John Dehlin [01:56:58] Well, I can't believe it took me that long. Gotta make that connection.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:02] Well, look at you berate yourself. Look at that harshness that you also display.

Natasha Helfer [01:57:10] And excluded by that Sunday ritual, or excluded kind of just in general, like, everything.

John Dehlin [01:57:17] Yeah, yeah, but I'm not whining. It's not me, like, saying, poor me.

Natasha Helfer [01:57:20] Yeah, yeah. No, I think that was really good.

John Dehlin [01:57:22] I was happy to have it be your experience.

Natasha Helfer [01:57:25] Yeah, No, I think that's great.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:27] Well, that is great.

Natasha Helfer [01:57:28] Yeah, yeah, that's good, John.

John Dehlin [01:57:32] Yeah, that's good.

Natasha Helfer [01:57:33] Do you, baby, good work. That's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:57:39] Yeah, but I'm not saying poor me. I'm just saying.

Natasha Helfer [01:57:41] No, I get it, I get it. And I want you to feel safe talking about this kind of stuff, because I know it's. It's tender stuff in our community, this whole patriarchy, you know, women. That's a very tender space. We're gonna do a whole series on that. I was gonna do a whole series on that last month, but that's been postponed for maybe two to three months from now. Well, so then tell me what it was like to interact and go to the place.

Police Presence and Procedural Surprises

John Dehlin [01:58:08] And maybe, maybe the most shocking thing was to see three police. Police cars in the Parking lot. Like, that was, you know, you.

Natasha Helfer [01:58:15] So that hasn't happened before.

John Dehlin [01:58:18] Not three. Like, I may. Maybe one. I. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:23] Three does feel.

John Dehlin [01:58:24] I don't remember three police cars, you know, and that. That was like, whoa. Like, really? Like, what do they think? They think there's going to be a riot. Like, do they think we're going to storm the building? Do they. Like, that was weird.

Natasha Helfer [01:58:39] That is weird. Especially because there's no. Like, all the excommunications you've been at have been fairly peaceful. There have been a lot. And a lot more people. Like, a lot more people showed up. I believe it was real. Sam Young and everybody was always respectful. I was at Sam Young's and yeah, everybody was just mingling in the lawn.

John Dehlin [01:59:01] Although I'll say your crowd, I think, was probably bigger than Leah and Cody's. And I. I was. I was pleasantly surprised with the size of the turnout. For you. I don't know, 40ish people, especially when

Natasha Helfer [01:59:16] about 95% of them came from out of town.

John Dehlin [01:59:19] Wow. Oh, yeah. Who lives in freaking Derby?

Natasha Helfer [01:59:21] Yeah, like, yeah, like, I think it

Margi Dehlin [01:59:23] was like, we love you, people from Derby.

Natasha Helfer [01:59:26] And Wichita.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:27] And Wichita.

Natasha Helfer [01:59:28] I think I could. Could have counted like maybe 10 people that were from.

John Dehlin [01:59:32] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [01:59:32] You know, like either my staff or. There was one person from the witch stake. There was like two or three people from my old ward. There was my professor who came from Friends University. But everybody else had driven or flown and some people had driven. There was a young man that drove from Cedar City and just. Just went overnight and everything. Like. And I'm glad to say that your donations have reimbursed him for his travel costs at least. So.

John Dehlin [02:00:10] Good.

Natasha Helfer [02:00:10] And I'm gonna try to. That's my. A whole nother project I have is to try to reimburse people a little bit if they needed it.

John Dehlin [02:00:18] So I was. I was grateful for the. The support. There was a lot of support there. And yeah, the cop cars were annoying, and I was just surprised at how fast because it was almost like I was setting up and starting to interview people and then all of a sudden you're leaving. And I'm like, what? Why is she leaving? And I swear I thought. I bet it's because of her phone. Like, I. I knew that at least I suspected it and. But. But I didn't know for a while. So you were over there talking to Clint and Jenny.

Natasha Helfer [02:00:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:48] I'm like, what the freak is going on?

Natasha Helfer [02:00:50] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:52] Did you think that they were going to still have the witnesses? Go in one by one, though.

John Dehlin [02:00:57] No, because I, in my. As I watched our witnesses testify at our disciplinary council, and even as, as I talked.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:05] Yes, that's so true.

John Dehlin [02:01:07] They were just like, literally like picking their teeth, looking at their watch.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:11] Didn't look at us at all.

John Dehlin [02:01:13] They were not paying attention. Yeah, These disciplinary councils are a kangaroo court. They're a, they're a joke. They, the decisions are predetermined. They're vetted by the area and general authorities. It's even in the handbook that you can't excommunicate without area authority approval. So that, that guarantees that this comes from above.

Natasha Helfer [02:01:34] Right. Which also means this appeal letter that I put together, I mean, that's not going to go anywhere.

John Dehlin [02:01:41] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:42] So.

John Dehlin [02:01:43] So I, it did not surprise me at all that if, if you don't go in, they're certainly not going to waste any time.

Natasha Helfer [02:01:49] Who went all go first or did they go first?

John Dehlin [02:01:52] So for me, it was weird, but we were invited in. He read from a script, kind of like a. Literally read from a script of the proceedings. He read the charges. He asked me, how do you plead? I said, not guilty.

Natasha Helfer [02:02:06] You know, interesting language. Right, right. Like a court of law weirdness type stuff.

John Dehlin [02:02:13] And then, and then he brought in the witnesses is how I remember it.

Natasha Helfer [02:02:18] Oh, so your witnesses went first?

John Dehlin [02:02:20] I. That's how I remember it. How do you remember it?

Margi Dehlin [02:02:23] I remembered you going first, but I. It doesn't really matter.

John Dehlin [02:02:28] That's funny. Yeah, I remembered it being the witnesses going first and then I spoke and. And then they dismissed us and then we all. And then they didn't want to give us the satisfied, you know, because there was media there, there was press, there was a huge vigil, a candlelight vigilant, and they didn't want this media moment where live streamed across the world, you come. You know, I came out reading the verdict. So for the first time ever that I'm aware of, there was no verdict that night.

Natasha Helfer [02:03:02] So typically people do get the verdict

John Dehlin [02:03:04] that night, I think, before me. Yeah. Because I mean, what. What are they gonna do? Like, like, yeah, they, they decide there. They vote and they decide there that. I think that's how all disciplinary councils are. I think someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but starting with this, they do this little delay thing, and I don't know if they vet it with Curt McConkey or they just wait three days and do. Do exit polling. Like, I don't know what they do, but they certainly wait 3ish days before.

Natasha Helfer [02:03:33] And were you able To. Did you want to, and did you stay together as a couple? In other words, were you there with him, or they didn't allow you to be with him or.

John Dehlin [02:03:42] Yeah, Marty's with me the whole time.

Natasha Helfer [02:03:43] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:03:44] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:03:44] So they didn't make a. Like, you can only come in one at a time for that. I had. I had wondered about that. I actually wanted to face them alone, kind of from kind of a matriarchy position. I didn't want, even though I would have loved for Andy to be there with me and witness it with me, just to have a witness. I had purposefully thought, I'm not going to ask for that, because I want to give the message that I can stand on my own two feet. Like, I don't. I don't need a man protecting. Protecting me, you know, like, that's so important. So. And I didn't. I. I even struggled with the Relief Society president being there because I wanted to just show up me. Like, I don't need female support. I don't need my husband. I don't. I. I'm perfectly capable of facing the three of you on my own, any day, anytime.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:30] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:04:30] Bring it. Right. Like. But I also wanted to honor the. The fact that we have made some changes and we're including women, and. And I wanted another woman to w. So that she could be kind of like, huh, so this is how maybe some of my sisters are being treated, or if I have a sister in my ward who's going through this issue, I wanted her to have maybe kind of that lived experience herself. And I wanted to honor the changes that the church is making to be a little bit more inclusive, even though there's still no power for women. So that was kind of a. I went back and forth on asking the Relief Society president to be there. Plus, I kind of felt bad just for inconveniencing her, quite frankly. At the same time, I want to let people know, like, if you're willing to say yes to these callings.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:18] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:05:18] You kind of gotta be ready for.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:21] That's right.

Natasha Helfer [02:05:21] The crappy parts of the callings. You can say no to these callings.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:25] Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [02:05:27] I was kind of outraged that you asked for the full Stake High Council to be there, and that was within your written rights, and they. They denied that.

Natasha Helfer [02:05:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:36] That seemed outrageous to me. Why have the. But why have that as an option for you? And then when you invoke it, deny

Natasha Helfer [02:05:43] and no explanation as to why? So I thought they actually would want that, too, because then it's like more witnesses for them, you know, too. But I didn't really understand why.

John Dehlin [02:05:54] I mean, my guess is they don't want to infect the top leadership in the stake with questions around apostasy and faith crisis stuff and my scientific data. No, I mean, yeah, right.

Natasha Helfer [02:06:06] No, I'm kind of with you.

John Dehlin [02:06:07] Science is a little dangerous.

Natasha Helfer [02:06:08] Like letting all those men know that I think it's okay that they're masturbating. Yeah. They probably didn't want that.

John Dehlin [02:06:17] I swear I can see Natasha. I know what you guys are doing. All you 15. I know what you're doing. You can't fool me.

Natasha Helfer [02:06:28] And I'm actually really sad that you were shamed about it. Anybody want to talk to me about it?

Margi Dehlin [02:06:33] And by the way, the shame oftentimes just makes you.

Natasha Helfer [02:06:35] You do it more. How many of you were really having a rotten 12, 13 year old experience? Let me know. Here's my number. Here's my cards. So true. Oh, man.

John Dehlin [02:06:51] So, yeah, I guess I was. I was surprised and shocked how soon it was over and then we had to figure out where to go and. And the police, like, it was almost like Starsky and Hutch, you know, they like drive their cars up and like park it there and they're like ushering us all out as soon as possible. Like we can't even stay on the property that we all paid for, frankly. And have a peaceful vigil.

Natasha Helfer [02:07:17] Yeah. Under their gazebo that they have for that purpose.

John Dehlin [02:07:20] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:07:21] With the cookies people brought. But I almost like they pull out

John Dehlin [02:07:24] the bullhorn, everybody, you know, which is

Natasha Helfer [02:07:28] like, I didn't realize all the. That was happening really.

John Dehlin [02:07:30] Because I'm not saying there was a bullhorn.

Natasha Helfer [02:07:31] I just got in the car with Andy and we took off, you know, so I didn't realize that. Oh, there was that. I knew the police were there, but I didn't realize it was so aggressive.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:43] I mean, they weren't like handcuffing us and.

Natasha Helfer [02:07:45] Right. But I mean, they were definitely.

John Dehlin [02:07:47] It was a show of force.

Natasha Helfer [02:07:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:49] Get out of here now. Leave the premises. Yeah. And it was kind of shocking because normally one of my favorite parts is meeting people. All these people come from all over and it's a way to get to know people and talk to people and share with people and have a moment and, you know, all of that was dashed and we had to just get off the property. And I mean, of course they're not. They don't want us to be doing that. So of course they're not going to be hospitable and warm and encouraging. So I. I guess I didn't expect that, but yeah, it was. It was disappointing.

Natasha Helfer [02:08:22] Yeah. Yeah. And then I kind of took over down at the Keeper of the Plains with the rest of my preaching energy, so it's not like people really got a chance to talk much to each other then either.

John Dehlin [02:08:34] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:08:36] So, yeah, I. I guess I did the best I could. I hope people got value out of coming.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:42] Well, can I say one thing?

Natasha Helfer [02:08:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:44] The. The live stream feed of the post event is the largest live stream I've ever had on Mormon Stories podcast ever. Like, I don't know, 2400.

Natasha Helfer [02:08:57] You mean when we were down by the river?

John Dehlin [02:08:59] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:08:59] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:09:00] The whole thing, the whole, like, vigil, the. The thing by the river, but also the speech you gave after and the witnesses, all that 2400 people were watching all at once, like it was a major. Sam Young's event. I don't remember it being that. That heavily attended. Nothing came close. So combination of love for you people supported the event. The times. All the people that have left between a couple years ago and now. I don't know all the ways to. To account for that massive number, but, like. And it was that way, you know, it was three hours where you. I think we were in the cold for like three hours.

Natasha Helfer [02:09:44] I'm so sorry.

John Dehlin [02:09:45] No, it's fine. And. But even, like, with only an hour left, there was still a couple thousand people. Like, it was. I was like one of these people gonna drop off and they just weren't. They weren't dropping off. And it was a. It was just a major. It was a major media event and people were tuned in from everywhere. Wow. So you had a massive show of support. And I just have to say that, like, I was talking to a family member about this and I'm just like, how in the world does the church think that this has helped them in any way? Like, from all the people that were members of record but hadn't resigned to them being pushed over to resign because of this. To all the people that were active and faithful that. Because of this event. That was like the, the straw that broke the camel's back where they now are going to stop attending. You know, to all the people who are faithful and orthodox who now are like, questioning because of this action they took against you, you know, and then all the ripple effects because when, when any one person resigns, there's going to be five people that, that are all of a sudden, like, awake to the problems or the issues. And for every five People to go inactive. For every person that goes inactive, they're going to be five people who are now like, whoa, why'd they go inactive? There's like this reverse pyramid scheme dynamic where there's this massive ripple effect where it's not just the people that are immediately affected, it's their whole network of spouses and children and, and parents and ward members and friends where everyone's sharing this on social media and they're all talking about it and, and then all the people that loved you and that were affected by you and the believing spouses of the mixed faith marriages that were angry because you helped save their marriage and now they're kicking you out. And then all the therapists that now are angry and sad, like, who is, who is running this organization? To, you know, who is thinking that in any way it's a good idea to number one, have disciplinary councils, number two, to, to, to pick on you and then all the massive network of the people that are going to be affected. I just, I literally don't understand how they're thinking. They're smart. They've got more money than Heavenly Father at this point. They've got the best consultants. Mark, he's thinking about, they've got so much money, so many smart people. I just, I don't know what they're thinking. Like, Mark Nagle certainly has had a major surge in resignations as a result of the past few weeks. And I just don't know how in the world who's benefited. I don't think you benefited. I don't think I benefited. I don't think any of our listeners benefited.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:42] The community.

John Dehlin [02:12:43] Yeah, I think the community was traumatized. I think the church lost a crap ton of members and credibility. This is in the Washington Post and you know, national news all over Utah. Who wins? Who won?

Natasha Helfer [02:12:57] You know, this is John's Latin side coming out. Does he have a hidden Latin side? He went to Guatemala. Right.

John Dehlin [02:13:04] I'm sorry.

Natasha Helfer [02:13:05] No, I love it. I love your. I know that some people are bugged by that like, flow that you have sometimes. But I'm like, preach, brother, preach. No, and I, you know, I think too that it's interesting because it's not necessary. Like if they're really worried about me being an influence, quite frankly, I was the worst influence on my own influence because I was writing things that if any believing Mormon wants to Google me, they're already gonna see that. I don't agree always. And, and, and I've noticed that in my practice, like I used to have my Practice used to be 100% almost believing members of the church, and that has dwindled dramatically over the last 10 years. Like, maybe now, I would say most of the believers that come to see me are because they're in mixed faith marriages, are because they're family members, and every now and then, because they really are dealing with a very serious issue, like realizing that they have, you know, like, a transgender child and they have no clue how to handle that. Right. Or a gay child or. Or they have a suicidal kid, you know, who just mutilated their genitals because they're masturbating. I mean, believers are willing to go out of the box when they're desperate.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:28] That's right.

Natasha Helfer [02:14:29] Right. So I. I. So those. So I was already discrediting myself because by them continually putting forth this narrative that is, in my view, sexually unhealthy, they're saying, this is how you should think about sex. They didn't need to excommunicate me to already have that tension be very much alive and well. Just naturally, I discredited myself by being honest about my positions. So. Yeah, so I agree with you. I think the net. The net gain for them, you know, maybe they're worried. Yeah. They don't want to give me credibility. They don't want people to listen to me. But. But every time they mention pornography in general conference, they're automatically creating that tension between me and them that people have to wrestle with in their own lived experiences and homes. So, yes, I think that was greatly unnecessary. Harmed me personally. Harmed my family, harmed our community. Kind of embarrassed us, I think. I think this is embarrassing, quite frankly. I mean, transgender issues are kind of an issue right now in the national news. Like, a lot of people are struggling with transgender rights, but masturbation, like, that fight was over 50 years ago in Christianity. Who's talking about masturbation? Other than very, very fundamental religions. So I think it was. It's embarrassing, quite frankly. I'm embarrassed for my church.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:57] Yep.

Natasha Helfer [02:15:59] Even the reactions I'm getting from some of the journalists that interview, they're like, wait, what did they say? You know, journalists are usually pretty, like,

Margi Dehlin [02:16:05] you know, like, neutral.

Natasha Helfer [02:16:06] You know, neutral. And so then what happened? But sometimes I'm getting like, that. That really happened. That's what they really think. Journalists are reacting that way.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:15] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:16:18] Yeah. Yeah. And then you see, like, Jana Reese, you know, writing an article for her national, you know, readers, that she thinks excommunication is medieval and barbaric and. And she's productive.

Natasha Helfer [02:16:36] Yeah, she's Another gem. She's a gem.

Broader Implications of the Excommunication

John Dehlin [02:16:38] She's a faithful believing member. So I mean it's almost like people are in open revolts.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:45] So anyway, that, it's just, it's just bizarre. And I'm not trying to bash the church, it's just like I, I, my wish is that there would just be no more disciplinary council councils. That's what I want. That's, that's all I've ever wanted is just stop it. The Catholic Church, you know, people wrote in, it's like you can say, hey, I, I disagree with the Pope about contraception or hey, I, I, you know, I think women should have the priesthood. As a Catholic, you don't get booted, you know, you just don't. And what modern church is excommunicating people for like tick tocks or podcasts or in your case, just sharing ethical evidence based mental health best practices. Like who does that? So yeah, so yeah, yeah, yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:17:34] And it's not, it's not a healthy procedure. Right. Like it's kind of, I kind of do the, the metaphor of, you know, back in the 90s or 80s, it was when I was going to schools, it must have been the 80s that Moms Against Drunk Driving campaign. Yeah. Which very well intentioned obviously. Like who wants it us dealing with drunk driving issues. Right. Nobody does. But their approach was very shaming. They would have the cars that were crunched up and they'd bring it to our high schools and they tell you this big sad story about the person who died. I see some of this too with texting and driving. Very dramatic stories. And what the research shows is that fear is a short term motivator, but it is not a long term solution. And then of course I've brought up Renee Brown a lot because all of her research around shame not being really a place where people can heal and actually change behavior that maybe isn't what's best for them or their family or their marriage. Right. Which is a lot of how I talk about pornography, for example. A lot of people think I'm just pro porn and everybody go look at porn. And I really, I don't have like a clinic stance on porn. Like that's up to people's values. I have my own personal stances on porn, but that's nobody's business. But clinically, it's my job to not judge whether a person thinks looking at porn is part of their value system or not. But if it's not part of your value system and you're struggling with feeling like It's a compulsive behavior in your life. Well, I've got some ideas about how we could actually reduce that tension and even some of your behavior without using these shaming approaches that have been proved completely ineffective. So I'm actually. I have a very pretty similar goal with the church on that. You know, if Mormons don't want to be looking at porn because it doesn't make them feel good and it bothers their spouse or it goes against their own inner conflict of their values, I can help you with that.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:34] That's right. Right.

Natasha Helfer [02:19:35] Not in the ways it's about what's affected.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:38] Right.

John Dehlin [02:19:40] We have a question from a listener. My dear friend Gerardo. He asks if you had any.

Natasha Helfer [02:19:44] Hi, Gerardo.

John Dehlin [02:19:47] He. He asked if you had any reaction to the Deseret News's coverage of your excommunication.

Natasha Helfer [02:19:52] I laughed.

John Dehlin [02:19:53] Why? Well, I don't even know what.

Natasha Helfer [02:19:55] Well, I don't know. I don't know how. I don't know how many articles are out there, but the original article was. I even showed it to Joe, who does. Who's a. No mo. He's my boyfriend now. It was just laughable. They only quoted the church. They only quoted their. I mean, Deseret News. I. I feel bad because, I mean, I feel like they have some really good journalists, but they're kind of in the same professional dilemma that I'm in.

John Dehlin [02:20:22] They're working.

Natasha Helfer [02:20:23] They're working for an entity that they really can't do. Good journalism.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:26] Right.

John Dehlin [02:20:27] Well, it's always Tad Walsh that does these types of articles. Six, seven, eight years. Tad. Tad. And this isn't to attack dad. I've actually met him once. I met him at McKenna Denson's press conference, of all places, and he said hi to me. But he's kind of the go to guy to write the articles on sensitive topics.

Natasha Helfer [02:20:51] There was no quote from me. There was no quote from, like, any professional, like, even Kristen Hodson or Julie Dezevedo, like, you know, the LDS people. It was a lot of emphasis on what was in the written letters and what was. I was being accused of. And it was just like, totally PR for the church. And I'm like, wow. I mean, we all know that Deseret News has that conflict of interest. You can't have a journalistic paper have credibility when a church owns it. That's just kind of ridiculous. It's the same issue with LDS Family Services. It's the same. I mean, I know really good clinicians who work for LDS Family Services who are Kind of like really wrestling because they're not allowed to practice the way they want to practice. And then I know a lot of clinicians who actually are very comfortable in those unethical spaces and need to really kind of take a good look at their ethics.

John Dehlin [02:21:46] Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I don't know. I don't know what other observations I have other than that I was freezing and exhausted by midnight.

Natasha Helfer [02:21:58] Well. And Kyle Ashworth from Gay Latter Gay Stories, he was in a T shirt. I didn't even notice him.

John Dehlin [02:22:06] I was in a hoodie.

Natasha Helfer [02:22:07] Oh, my gosh. Until like two and a half hours in. And then finally one of the ladies in the brought him a jack.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:14] Oh.

Natasha Helfer [02:22:14] I was like. Those were the moments where I was like, yes, I'm having all this energy and flow, but am I expecting too much from the people who were witnessing it?

John Dehlin [02:22:24] You wanted your moment.

Natasha Helfer [02:22:25] And I told everybody, thank you so much, Natasha.

John Dehlin [02:22:27] I know.

Natasha Helfer [02:22:28] And I told everybody, you can leave. I don't care if I'm talking to nobody, but I'm gonna talk. But anyway, that's the one. I wish I would have had more capacity to manage that piece.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:40] Try to be easy on yourself.

Natasha Helfer [02:22:42] Maybe with that I will. Margi.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:44] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:22:46] Thank you. I'm not as harsh. I'm able to be like, yeah, I totally messed up. And so what's next? As long as I say I'm sorry.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:57] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:22:58] I'm not super hard on myself by now. I was super hard on myself as a 21 year old, so I've done a lot of work on that.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:07] Do you have any kind of reflections, just final reflections on the pro or things you want to share?

John Dehlin [02:23:13] Yeah, I think the couple days. The couple days after were really hard on you. And I think that whatever we discussed about your state leading up to it, I don't think it ended that night. I think you. You continued to struggle.

Natasha Helfer [02:23:30] Yes. And I'm still struggling. I'm still struggling. Like.

John Dehlin [02:23:33] You want to talk about that?

Natasha Helfer [02:23:34] Sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:35] I don't mean to say.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:36] No, I think that.

Natasha Helfer [02:23:36] I think I can be very honest.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:38] That actually was kind of my question, but it was a little bit more vague so that she could choose to.

Natasha Helfer [02:23:44] You're so nice. I totally missed your vagueness. That's a good time to have John's direct. I was like, do I have any last minute thoughts?

John Dehlin [02:23:51] Not really.

Natasha Helfer [02:23:51] About the overall process you're in. I came home, it was late. We had a late flight, so I didn't really get home till I got home on Monday. Well, first of all, Monday, so The day after, I just slept in. But I also was still posting a lot. I was trying to make room for my kiddo before I left. I had a friend with me that traveled with me and was not really able to think much. I mean, I was just. I was still very overwrought having discussions with Andy even, you know, that, you know, how are we processing this? So it was just hard. It was a hard day. I was tired. We traveled late at night.

John Dehlin [02:24:37] You were, You. You stayed up super late the, the morning after your dis. Your. The discipline council, and you were posting.

Natasha Helfer [02:24:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:47] I think you only got a couple hours sleep.

Natasha Helfer [02:24:49] Yeah, I couldn't. I mean, I probably fell asleep at 4:00am and maybe got up at like, like 8 or 9, you know, so, I mean, sleeping in means, you know, I don't know. I don't. I. I can't track. But, yeah, I still couldn't really fall asleep. And I. I have problems with insomnia. Anyway. Anyway, that's been a lifelong problem. So I got home and, yeah, Clint and Jenny and Joe were waiting for me. Picked us up, my friend and I. Carrie and. And yeah, they. They basically. And I was. And I was probably. Probably where I felt that most unhealthy was in that car ride home, mainly because I was like, trying to explain and my voice was raised in this car where everybody could hear me quite well without me raising my voice. And so, yeah, I'm sure they were all like. Even Joe was looking at me like.

John Dehlin [02:25:51] All I can say is by the time, by the time you're in the air, many people around you were really worried about you.

Natasha Helfer [02:25:58] Yeah. And even my Symmetry Solutions team kind of like unpublished. My page, which we haven't even had a chance to talk about yet. We're. We meet on Fridays, so I'm looking forward to. You know, I. I think they're worried that maybe I was offended that they did that. And I do have kind of mixed feelings about it, but not like offended feelings. Like, you know, I'm glad that at Symmetry we feel like we can take care of each other, you know, and even though I'm kind of like the boss, I'm glad that they feel like the confidence to either call me out or put a boundary. So I have a lot of wonderful things to talk about with them, but we haven't even had a chance to do that. And I even want them to vent, you know, if they need to, like, vent their own stuff at me if they need to. So. But that's a totally different thing.

What Made This Experience So Difficult

John Dehlin [02:26:52] What was so hard about that. If you just had to summarize what was so hard about the whole experience that was leaving you in that state towards the end, how would you describe

Natasha Helfer [02:27:06] what was hard about.

John Dehlin [02:27:07] About the whole experience? It seemed like it kind of traumatized you.

Natasha Helfer [02:27:14] Well, sure it did. I mean, there was a lot of things that were hard. First of all, I was having, like, 500,000 ideas, which is part of kind of like, manic energy. And a lot of them, I think, are really good ideas. So I was, like, trying to. Because I didn't want to forget them. I didn't want to forget all these ideas that I felt were coming, not realizing that I probably have those ideas there anyway, you know, Like, I didn't have to write them all down. It was Clint who, like, said, you know, those ideas will probably be there. I'm like, that was a good reminder to breathe, you know, like, yeah, if they're good enough ideas, they'll probably be there tomorrow or next week. But I was definitely feeling that frenzied. Like, there was also some boundaries I wanted. I wanted, for example, like, the posts that I did where I said, I vote opposed to President Nelson and to Steve Daley. I wanted that done kind of in a ritualistic way before I landed in Utah, before I've set foot on Utah. Like, ritual and symbolism has a lot of meaning for me. That's something that works for me. So I did not want to set foot on Utah soil without having voted opposed to this unrighteous dominion, not only of my excommunication, but really of how my witnesses were treated. Like, I really had more anger about that than my own treatment, because I think, like, what I said, I'm kind of used to it. Not. I don't think I would have had the same reaction if my witnesses had been treated correctly. So those were things that were hard. And then, yeah, when I found out, well, nobody was able to communicate with me because I was traveling. You know, my phone was on whatever, airplane mode. So they shut down my page or they paused it, whatever. They didn't shut it down. They unpublished it, and then you can publish it. It wasn't like they were threatening anything that I had written. But my immediate reaction when I found out was the church did it. I didn't know. You know, nobody had been able to communicate with me because of my travel. And so that heightened me even more, like. And that's how I got into the car with Clinton, Jenny, and Joe. I think I still didn't know. Yeah, I didn't Know, at that point. So I was fuming that, oh, they're talking about religious freedom, and then they don't even. They can't even tolerate my page. And somebody figured out how to report my page. And I was raging about that all the way home, and it wasn't even the case, right? So there's a lesson learned on assumptions, right? Like, don't assume always that you have your story, right? So that. That was kind of like that final. That was like the nail that hit the head, you know, that here, in this loving attempt to kind of help me rest and pause and really think about what I'm. What I was writing, which is, I'm guessing, the intention of my symmetry team, which. I had a quick conversation with one of my providers about it the next day, and I understood what they were. What they were saying. But in that moment, I. It was like the final fury towards the church, some screaming in the car. Maybe screaming is a hard. Maybe I was, you know, raised voice in the car talking about those feelings. And so I'm sure what. Whatever concern anybody had about me was definitely doubled down in that car ride. So they all kind of lovingly put me to bed. And even. Even my. My kiddo, Rowan, and I hope they don't mind me talking about this, but they told me a few days ago, not right away, like maybe yesterday, that they had never seen me. Like, I arrived that night, I was. I was mad at the church. I was devastated that maybe I had hurt my kiddo in Kansas. I was like, yeah, I was. I was definitely having a moment of sleep deprivation disaster that last two hours of that evening. And they had helped me get some. They had worked with a local psychiatrist to give me like a quick consult, like telehealth consult or whatever, and I was able to get some medication. You were involved in that, I think. Think, John. So thank you. And. And the only man I was willing to listen to is Joe. And he was like, you're taking it. And I'm like, okay. And everybody put me to bed.

John Dehlin [02:32:01] We just wanted to get you sleep.

Natasha Helfer [02:32:03] And I needed it. I need. I mean, I was. And I knew. I mean, I wasn't saying I don't need sleep. You know, I knew I needed sleep. And I. And I had already taken off the week from work because I knew even back in Kansas that I was not going to be able to show up as a clinician. There was no way. So I had done that. You all put me to bed. You all got me the medicine, but I can. It's Been a week now, right? Like today's Monday. Is that right? And I'm telling you that today was the first day that I actually left my home, like drove one of my kids to school and did, you know, some things with my kid who needed me to pick up some, like track stuff for track. And so that was interesting. I've spent most of the week in bed or in a chair, like when I do interviews or I also actually put a boundary with media. I didn't, you know, there was a part of me that of course wanted media attention to bring light to this, but I was like, I can't talk to media. I can't. I can barely talk to my own kids. I can't figure out what I'm going to say that makes any sense. I did give Sarah at the Washington Post a quick interview just to kind of talk about my, what the results was when I got the excommunication notice and also to let her know my response appeal letter. So I did have that interaction with her. And I also had an interaction with Fox 13 News with Haley. Oh, gosh, I forget her last name. But mainly I felt comfortable with both of them because they had both reached out to me the week before and they were both very respectful in how they took my story. So I felt like just the little snippets I can offer, I'll just offer to the two that I had already talked to. I had a very nice conversation with a gentleman from ABC News today, I think Utah, ABC News. So I don't know if that story has broken yet or not. But he also was very kind, respectful. I've had really very positive interactions with a few journalists that I've talked to.

Media Coverage and Public Response

John Dehlin [02:34:22] You may have just said this and if I missed it, I'm sorry, I was looking at comments, but. But did Doug Fabrizio, did Radio west ask you to be on the show?

Natasha Helfer [02:34:29] They reached out and it was when I was like, I would love to talk to you next week. So they did the show with Kristen Hodson and which I thought she did a beautiful job. And also, sorry, I'm getting a phone call. I want to make sure. Can I take this really quick? It's my kiddo. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:34:49] So da da da da da da da da da. Margi, what do you think about anything? Natasha's comments so far? Any thoughts you have, you want to share? Okay, let me throw it on you and put the pressure on you.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:03] Right. And how about you?

John Dehlin [02:35:05] Oh, yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:06] Well,

John Dehlin [02:35:08] I want to thank all our listeners. We have a very large audience that has been tuning in. I do want to invite you guys to ask any questions you have for Natasha. Any comments or questions.

Natasha Helfer [02:35:23] I know.

John Dehlin [02:35:24] We definitely want to give you a chance to ask Natasha any questions or comments that you have. So that was our song and dance.

Natasha Helfer [02:35:33] My kiddo can't find his melatonin. I didn't realize it's 11 o'. Clock.

John Dehlin [02:35:36] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:35:38] You probably all want to go to bed anyway, but, yeah, so I. I definitely feel it still. I need to rest still. I'm still getting, like, sleep headaches. I'm still using the sleep aids that were prescribed to me.

John Dehlin [02:35:52] Good.

Natasha Helfer [02:35:53] And, yeah, I'm still healing.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:56] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:35:57] And that's okay. That doesn't mean I'm not okay. It just means I just, like, recovered from a surgery. Right. And I need to be on bed rest for two weeks or something like that. It's very similar.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:08] Yeah. Takes time.

Audience Questions and Mental Health Community Impact

John Dehlin [02:36:11] We had a question from the audience right at the very beginning that I wanted to read. It's from Clark, and he wrote, what would Natasha say to someone who thinks or says that she was insincere about keeping her membership because she chose not to attend the membership council? Everyone should. Everyone should know that he wrote a letter to the stake president supporting Natasha. So he's not questioning your sincerity, but maybe there have been some people that question your sincerity and around your appeal as well, that maybe. Do you really want to stay a member? Why would you want to stay a member in this church? That would kick you out and is, you know, if some were to say, isn't this just all theater? The disciplinary council theater, the. The appeals theater. It's just theatrics.

Natasha Helfer [02:36:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:58] What would you say?

Natasha Helfer [02:36:59] I mean, I don't know what I can say. I mean, I've told my truth. I've shown my emotion. I've never taken acting classes. I don't think you can show the type of emotion that I showed in a fake way. I know who I am. I know that those are legitimate questions. I know that they're. And those. I would just say kind of you do you. In that regard. Like, if that's interpretation, you take away from my experience. Okay. That's not. It's not my job to manage everybody's reaction to my experience. And I understand where those concerns come from. Like, I get it. And I'm even willing to, as possible, have conversations with people who have those concerns as I have time. Like, if we want to get somebody in a podcast that feels that way and having a conversation, like, I'm willing to have conversations with people. But, but obviously I can't do it all, so that's okay. I, I get it. I understand it. There were times when I felt those ways, when I was especially more of a believer person myself, you know, more orthodox. All I can do is show up and all you can do is decide what you're going to do with my showing up, Right?

Margi Dehlin [02:38:19] That's right, Yep.

John Dehlin [02:38:22] Any. Now you, any other questions you had,

Margi Dehlin [02:38:24] Mike, Is there anything you wanted to talk about that we didn't ask or.

Natasha Helfer [02:38:29] I can't think of anything. Right. I just, I really wanted to debrief, I wanted to ask you all some questions. I would ask the same thing of you. Is there anything that you would like to share? I mean, what was it like afterwards or anything? I mean, I think you've shared quite a bit, but.

John Dehlin [02:38:44] So a couple. If it's okay, we'll take just a couple questions from our viewing audience. We've had several hundred people just, just watching this whole thing. So thanks to listeners for, for staying tuned. Lori Bagley Burt writes, How does Natasha feel her experience will impact our community of mental health providers, us therapists and therapy?

Natasha Helfer [02:39:08] Sorry, I was texting my kid. What, what was the question again? How does this impact the mental health professionals?

John Dehlin [02:39:14] How do you feel like this will impact our community of mental health providers?

Natasha Helfer [02:39:18] No, it's impacting us. I mean, I just attended a board meeting for the Mormon Mental Health association on Sunday night that was pre planned and I had enough energy to attend. And everybody's talking and everybody's. I mean, I think one of the things that I'm. Anytime there's something that's painful or bad in our lives, usually not that we wanted those bad things to happen, but usually there's a silver lining or there's growth or there's new perspectives. And so one of the things that I think will really benefit all of us, whether you agree with me or don't agree with me, or you're a professional or you're a member or even outside of this community altogether. Because I think this has implications actually for ASEC and for even legislation. These struggles between science and religion are, are all over the place, conversations about religious freedom. And it's a nationwide issue. It's just having a Mormon story in the, in the minute and a white Mormon story at that. I, I definitely want to say that, but I think the best thing that will come out of this story, I hope, is conversations we're gonna have to talk about things that we don't typically talk about. And I'M noticing those conversations with my colleagues. I'm noticing that conversation with colleagues who don't agree with me.

John Dehlin [02:40:40] Me.

Natasha Helfer [02:40:41] I'm inviting them to conversations. Like I'm, I'm comfortable calling a few people out publicly because they've publicly called me out. So, like Laura Brotherson and oh, who was the gentleman who wrote the piece in Meridian magazine, which is of course a very biased LDS magazine? Was it. I forget his name. But like, I'm, I'm willing to sit down with those people. Right? Like, let's really talk about this and, and maybe let's especially talk about it with an eth ethics professional who isn't even Mormon. Right. Who doesn't come from our. I just want conversations. I want leaders to have conversations. Would they have done this if I was in their stake? For example, the stake president, a neighboring stake president in Kansas is also the. He is the dean or the director of the marriage and family therapy program at, at Kansas State University. The stake president is the director of the marriage and family therapy program. I don't know him. I've never. I think I've maybe shake hands with him once. But would he have excommunicated me? How does he teach his. Does he teach his marriage and family therapy students that, that they can't talk about masturbation with their clients? Or do you see what I'm saying? That like, this has implications for a lot of conversations and I hope we really take the opportunity to have those conversations.

John Dehlin [02:42:14] What do you say to the church's response that this was never about any of your clinical work with you, that this was about criticizing the brethren publicly?

Natasha Helfer [02:42:26] And first of all, yeah, I have the letter showing all their concerns, which are all clinical concerns, except for maybe my tone about the, the patriarchal prick comet. But I only call them those names because they hurt my people. So I don't, and I don't even really call them. I call it kind of like it's a systemic idea. Like when we act in these ways that are patriarchal, we can really harm people. So it's not like I'm calling any one person that name in particular. So I just think that's really BS And I, and I think that the church has a problem with gaslighting. That's. That's another historical problem. Oh, well, you're leaving the church. It's not because we have issues. It's because you didn't pray enough or study enough. The whole lazy learner thing. Right? I mean, that's not true. We know that's not true. We know some of the people. Yeah, some people leave the church because they're just not interested in religion or doesn't resonate with them or they just don't want to be active even though they still believe. There's all kinds of people who don't attend church for a lot of different reasons. But a lot of the people that we communicate with, especially through Mormon stories and through our retreats and stuff, we know that they're the people who studied the most and who were very intentional about trying to figure out how they could make, you know, that cognitive dissonance work in a way that they could actually stay. So it's very. It's dishonest, and it's a gaslighting technique for them to say, oh, no, no, no, no. It's not that. It's this. And they're experts at it. Their PR department is expert at that. And that's a sickness that needs to go by the wayside if they really want to retain membership. This new generation is not about authority. They should study the millennials, like, their values. Their values are authenticity. And are you being real with us? Like, the reason why my kids respect me is not because I'm like, ah, you have to do it because mom says so. My kids respect me when I'm like, you know what, guys? I'm, like, spent. I'm not gonna be able to be your mom today. I'm so sorry. But. And. Or when I say, you know what? I think I did a she hulk on you guys yesterday. I was really rotten. And I know I grounded you guys for, like, three days. And you don't.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:52] You.

Natasha Helfer [02:44:53] You probably deserve one day. So they respect that because I'm showing up real. I'm showing up authentic. I correct my mistakes. I'm willing for them to tell me what I'm doing wrong. Like, my kid in Kansas told me quite a few things that he was upset about with me over this weekend, and I'm like, bring it. Yeah, bring it. Tell me. And I owned it.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:18] That's beautiful.

Natasha Helfer [02:45:19] That if the church can do that, they'll be much more respected and powerful. Stop gaslighting me and everybody else. We're not stupid. We can see through those tactics. It's obvious. That's why I wanted it to be so transparent. Oh, we're only upset because you're critical. Well, but what am I being critical about? Oh, everything that has to do with my clinical practice. Come on. On, like, even Doug Fabrizio said that very well in the program. He's like, it's Obviously connected.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:49] Yeah. Except I would just say that if there's one commonality between all the excommunications, it's the brethren don't like to be criticized publicly. I. I think that's actually legitimate. They. I mean, it's true the criticisms were about their policies, but it seemed, you know, I guess in theory, we've all. All. We all did that temple covenant to not criticize the Lord's anointed. And we just know they don't like to be criticized in public. They don't. They see their authority as the most sacred and valuable thing that they have.

Natasha Helfer [02:46:20] And that's not healthy. That's not healthy. They should all read Christian Moore's book Being resilient. Like, I get it. Who likes to be criticized? I don't like it. Nobody likes it. It's not fun.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:33] It's not.

Natasha Helfer [02:46:33] It's not a fun process.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:35] Us.

Natasha Helfer [02:46:35] But what are we doing in therapy? A lot of times we're helping people learn how to take some criticism constructively so that they can take a look at themselves. I mean, it's basic Freudian 101. Right. Like, our egos and our. Our ids and all those things that just. We don't like to be wrong. We don't like it when people call us out on our crop. I don't like it, but I've learned to actually appreciate it.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:04] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:47:05] And especially if it's done nicely. And I did it nicely for years.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:09] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:47:10] You know, it's been just recently that, like, I had the comment at the. The Protect LDS Children's thing where I called out oaks on not being willing to repent as a church. Like, whatever. Like, don't say ridiculous things if you don't want to be criticized.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:25] Right.

Natasha Helfer [02:47:26] Don't go against our own doctrine if you don't want to be criticized.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:29] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:47:30] Don't do things that are obviously, like, how many mama and papa dragons need to go meet with apostles to tell them that their kids are dying of suicide and then continue your stupid stuff when you've got bajillions of dollars that you can get educated on these things. If you don't want to be criticized, like, stop being, like, actually kind of ridiculous.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:50] Right.

Natasha Helfer [02:47:51] Because if you're saying ridiculous things.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:54] Right. Yeah. That are.

Natasha Helfer [02:47:57] I only. And I only criticize them on that. I don't ever criticize their. Their personality or their character or their service or, you know, I don't say that they shouldn't be in the positions that they're in. That's what I Mean by sustaining, like, we've all done callings. We know how hard that is. We know it takes a lot of time. I respect a lot of what they do. But when you say stupid stuff. If I say stupid stuff, somebody please call me out.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:25] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:48:26] Call me out when I say stupid stuff.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:28] Especially when your stupid stuff impacts and makes a lot of people suffer a lot.

Natasha Helfer [02:48:34] And in the name of God.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:35] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:48:36] Which is a very. That's a very delicate relationship. It's something. It's something. If my boss criticizes me, but if my God is unhappy with me, because you're telling me that. That they are.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:49] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:48:51] That reeks emotional, relational, and spiritual havoc.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:57] Right.

Natasha Helfer [02:48:58] And, yeah. I'm tired of dressing those wounds.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:01] Yeah, I bet you are.

Natasha Helfer [02:49:02] I am. We all are, John. You are, Margi. You are. Every professional who signed that document is. Even the professionals who think they disagree with me are tired of dressing those wounds.

Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

Margi Dehlin [02:49:14] Yeah. Yeah. I was going to say earlier, I feel like that's actually when you see anger or when you see that sense of, like, feeling, you know, tired of it. I feel like that's where it comes from.

Natasha Helfer [02:49:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:28] It's from the suffering that you're holding. All the people's stories and just feeling like. Do you not hear. Why do you not hear? Right. From the clinicians?

Natasha Helfer [02:49:40] And Amy Heffernan, by the way, has a lot of. We're going to do a whole podcast or presentation about how this is very metaphorical to being in an abusive family.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:50] Oh, and Amy's moving to Salt Lake.

Natasha Helfer [02:49:55] I feel bad because I know that's a struggle for her, but I'm, like, super happy about it.

John Dehlin [02:50:01] Gerardo is. Is. Is. Is asking me to ask you if you want to comment on. On Laura Brotherson's comments about you kind of your fellow.

Natasha Helfer [02:50:10] I. I offered a post with my comments to her. I mean, basically, it's like, you know, I. I met. I knew of her basically because of her first book that she wrote or her only book. I don't know how many books she's written. And they were not ashamed. And I saw a lot of usefulness for that type of book where she basically also talks about masturbation being helpful, but she just did it in a very, you know, LDS language way. And I saw usefulness for that. And I've referred to her book many times at the same time. It's difficult to take criticism from, especially professional criticism with somebody who doesn't hold your own credentials. So I made the kind of, like, the metaphor that like. Like a family doctor Family physician is a doctor, and a cardiologist is a doctor. They're both doctors. They both have a lot of education. They both have a lot of credentials. But if you have a. A cardiology issue and the. The family physician and the cardiologist are having the. That conversation like equals, and the public thinks that they're equals, that. That isn't. Nobody would fly for that. You'd have to have the two cardiologists having an argument. Right. So that's just kind of how I feel about Laura Brotherson. She probably helps a lot of people, but in this particular area, I have more expertise and much more training than she does. That's just a reality. That's not a prideful thing. And. And she has, actually, we've seen posts that she's written, especially around transgender issues that are highly problematic for a therapist to be holding that do not follow best practice. So I'm willing to have conversations with these people, but when she says she wouldn't refer to me, I'm like, well, the feeling's mutual, honey. I mean, sorry, but she's a person, too, and I'm willing to respect her as a person, and. And I'd love to have a conversation with her someday or anybody like her.

John Dehlin [02:52:20] Yeah. All right. Well, I think we're. I think we're grateful both for. Well, Margi, I'm grateful you were willing to come and be a part of this.

Natasha Helfer [02:52:36] I'm grateful that you all stay up late with me because you both go to bed early and are early risers. I'm a late bed person, and I get up late. Oh, I'm sorry about that.

John Dehlin [02:52:46] Yeah, well, we're. Margi, I'm glad you were able to be here. Viewers and listeners, I'm glad you were able to be here. And, Natasha, I'm. I'm glad we were able to help give you a chance to kind of do a bit of a postmortem. And I'm guessing you're going to be maybe doing a couple other things.

Natasha Helfer [02:53:06] Yeah, I'll be doing some. Like I mentioned, I'll be doing some podcasts with, like, Jennifer Gonzalez and Amy Heffernan, and. And I'm going to be talking to my team, my symmetry team, and seeing maybe if we want to do something. I mean, there's lots of things that now I'm thinking about, even how to turn this whole experience into maybe a book or a project. Not by myself. I can't do it all by myself. But I'm just saying networking with the right people, getting the Right. Permission. Doing it in a way that's ethical, that even I think addresses that. I really do think that in a lot of ways, whenever we're doing a Mormon story that's big like this, we do have to recognize that it's primarily a white story.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:51] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:53:51] Especially. So how do we. How do we tell this story in a way that doesn't continue to not tell the other story of the intersectionality of our black and brown members that not only carry sexual shame wounds in our church, but also carry wounds that. That most of us don't even know how to talk about or address or even recognize. So I want to be mindful. I want to be thoughtful. So it's going to take me a lot of time to figure out what all is going to come out of this. And. And I think consulting with the right people is going to be very important if I'm going to do it right or as right as possible.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:30] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:54:31] Right. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:54:35] Well, thank you. Thank you.

Natasha Helfer [02:54:37] Thank you for letting me kind of just have a space where I felt like I could take as much time as I needed. And both prior and after, this has been a good way for me to be like, okay, now I can talk to the media. Now I can talk to whoever. But at least I got, I think, most of my Mormon story out and the space that you provide without deadlines and. And things like that. So thank you both.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:07] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:55:09] Thank you, Natasha. And I imagine she's gonna be. It's just gonna be, keep up the good work. You're gonna just keep.

Natasha Helfer [02:55:14] Oh, yeah. Same old, same old, same old, same old. For the most part.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:18] I mean, work continues.

Natasha Helfer [02:55:19] Yeah. I mean, the same old, same old. Maybe, you know, my ideal idea would be, like, a year from now, Maybe I'm seeing 15 clients instead of 25 because I want to work on these other projects. But as far as my approach and my resources and presentations and all that, same old, same old. Yeah. Nothing's changing.

John Dehlin [02:55:40] All right, thanks, Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [02:55:42] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:55:43] Thanks, everybody. You guys take care, and we'll see you guys again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Bye, everybody.