Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 762

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. The kindly light amid encircling gloom

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:00:43] Lead

John Dehlin [00:00:43] thou me on the night is dark. Welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 28, 2017 and I am super excited for today's interview, as I always tend to be. We are going to be interviewing today the lovely, the brilliant, the super well respected, the sweetheart of Mormon therapy worldwide, the Mormon therapist herself, Natasha Helfer Parker. How's that for an introduction, Natasha? Goodness, does that work?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:31] Sure, I'll take it.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] All right, before we jump in though, I want to welcome everyone who's joined us. We do have several people who are joining us through Facebook Live because we are live streaming as many interviews as we can because we think that's a fun way to make things interactive. So as people are joining us, we want to thank you for joining us and ask you to prepare your questions and comments because we want to integrate questions and comments into these episodes. That makes them more interactive and more fun. Before we actually dive into Natasha's interview though, we want to make a few announcements. As always, one of the main functions of the Open Stories foundation is to is to organize workshops and retreats. And these are not intended to, you know, to make anybody any money. They're literally designed to support Mormons in difficult religious transitions or non Mormons for that matter. So whether it's struggling in a mixed faith marriage or just individually with the faith crisis, whether you're struggling to find, you know, some sort of spirituality or sense of meaning or purpose or community, or you want to strengthen your marriage, or you want to improve your mental health or your well being, or just build a new life after sort of Mormon orthodoxy doesn't work for you. That's what these workshops and retreats are for. And they're not just for people who have left Mormonism, but they're also for people who are staying in Mormonism just as unorthodox or non traditional, you know, loyalists or believers, we will say. So we have several events coming up, July 7th and 8th we'll be in Dallas, Texas for a retreat that's gonna be so fun. We're gonna have barbecue, we're gonna have a pool party. We may do karaoke. We'll probably definitely do karaoke. And we'll have fun with a lot of Dallas folks and Houstonians and whoever else shows up. July 14th through 16th is a special event that Natasha Helfer Parker is going to be involved with. Natasha, tell us a bit about that event.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:03:50] So I am going to be co leading a retreat for Mormon matters with dan Witherspoon and Dr. Marty Erickson. And this will be a two and a half day retreat, similarly organized. Like we've done some of our Mormon stories retreats where people can come and we talk a lot about how to navigate through faith transitions within church membership. So for those maybe who are more interested in staying involved with church attendance or maybe have family members who want to stay involved with that. So whether it's a mixed faith spouse or you have children who want to continue to go or you want to continue to engage, it's just a really great, I guess, resource rich retreat and also community building retreat. So we've had great success in the

John Dehlin [00:04:41] past with these and Natasha is brilliant in these workshops and retreats. I've co led several with her and everyone has received a 4.9 or higher rating. And she can talk about pretty much all important things. And Dan's a legend. So check out the Mormon Matters retreat. In addition to those, August 11th through 12th in Salt Lake City, Utah County. I'm pleased to be teaming up with Dr. Julie de Azevedo Hanks. Together we're leading a mixed faith marriage retreat. Oh, by the way, Natasha, you'll be joining us in Dallas. I completely forgot to mention that. So we will be co leading the Dallas retreat together. So that would be remiss if we didn't mention that, wouldn't it?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:28] I'm excited. I love Dallas.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] It's been at least over six months since you and I have done this together. So it's time.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:36] I miss you, John.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] I know. So Natasha's driving down from Wichita just to attend this Dallas event. So if you are anywhere near Texas or have access to an airport, you will be missing out if you don't come to the Dallas retreat next week with me and Natasha.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:52] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] So you're warned. Everybody's warned. Okay, got that. All right. So August 11th through 12th, Dr. Julie de Azevedo Hanks and I will be leading a mixed faith marriage retreat. This is really important because so often Natasha and I and others have done these events where let's just say 80 to 90% of the people are sort of, you know, Mormons really struggling or Mormons who have left the church, or Mormons who are unorthodox in significant ways. And the believers that come in the mixed faith marriages oftentimes feel a little bit outnumbered. And so we thought, I know, what we'll do is we'll find another therapist that is actually actively attending church and would describe themselves as a believer. And we'll make it 50, 50. And so all the couples that attend this retreat will have one person who's a believer and then one who is unorthodox or doesn't believe anymore or who has left the church. And that way no one's gonna feel ganged up on. And so we'll be doing that August 11th through 12th and then September 14th and 15th will be in Seattle, Washington. October 20th, 22nd is Sydney, Australia. I need to buy the plane tickets for that. I haven't bought those yet. And November 9th through 10th will be in San Francisco, the Bay Area. And I guess last but not least, 2018, October, we'll be doing a Mormon Stories cruise to the Bahamas. So that's going to fill up. So make sure and reserve your spot. Today there is a deposit you have to pay. But this has been created not because John wants to take a cruise, but because Mormon Stories listeners for years have been saying we want to have more fun and we want to have more connection and build community. And they've been requesting a cruise like this. So we've created it for them. And no donations to the Open Storage foundation, you know, for just general operations, go to these events. These events self fund. So when people either pay for their registration fees or donors donate to the scholarship fund, that is what pays for these events. So those of you who donate to Open Source foundation don't have to worry if you're concerned about supporting these events. They're self sustaining. So that is our slate of events for the rest of 2017 and into 2018. So we're really excited about that. So everyone please join us if you're interested. If you want to register for any of these events, go to mormonstories.org events and you can click on the event that corresponds and you can register and we'd love to have you. These events have saved marriages. They've, in some cases we've been told they've saved lives. They've been the type of thing where somebody went when they felt like they had no more hope and it's given them hope. And it's most importantly, unified a lot of families and helped a lot of people find a better sense of mental health and spirituality and just progress in their lives. So enough about that. We really appreciate everyone who donates to the Open Stories Foundation. The Open Stories foundation is committed to supporting people experiencing or impacted by religious transitions. We have several podcasts, Mormon Matters Podcast with Dan Witherspoon, the Thoughtful Faith Podcast with Gina Colvin, Mormon Mental Health Podcast with our dear Natasha Alfred Parker. And then Margi and I have been doing Mormon Transitions themed podcasts and releasing them under Mormon Stories to give them maximum reach based on listener requests. So that's also the bulk of what the Open Stories foundation does. And we couldn't do it without your contributions and support. So please do. If you don't donate now to the Open Stories foundation, we need your support to keep all these services going, to pay our podcasters, to support our wonderful staff and to help us in our mission. So please take the time to go to one of these websites for these podcasts or to opensourcefoundation.org, click on the donate button at the top right of the screen. And $10 a month, $20 a month, $100 a month, whatever you can afford. These episodes are, you know, donations to the Open Stories foundation are tax deductible in the United States and they go towards supporting the mission and keeping all this alive because there are millions of Mormons left who are either experiencing a transition or will be soon. And so we want these resources to be available for everyone. So that is what we're about and that is all the announcements I have now if I'm going to check back really quick to our Facebook Live listeners. We've got 63 people joined us, so we're excited. I see that Pat's joined us, Candice, Josh and Jana. Hey guys, thanks for joining us. We have many other people who have joined us or will joined us who will join us. So again please, for all those who have tuned in, please start posting questions and comments because we would love to include and make this interactive really quickly. Somebody asked where is the info about the cruise? Amy just posted it to the comments. But if you go to mormonstories.org events you can click on the information about the cruise and it's also in the comments section. We also have Ruth joining us, Tina, Jason, two Jasons, Patricia. Thanks to everyone who's joined us so far. Colleen just joined and many more will be joining us. So, all right, so why are we interviewing Natasha Helfer Parker? That's not the question. The question is, why is Mormon stories 12 years into its existence, and we have not yet interviewed Natasha Helfer Parker in an individual interview. And the answer is, she's too busy. She's got so many people who want her time and attention. She's been. No, I'm just kidding. No, I don't know why, but Natasha has been a dear friend. When do you think we first got in contact, Natasha?

How Natasha Helfer Parker Came to Mormon Stories

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:12:02] Oh, it's been about probably eight years ago.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] Eight years ago. So that would have been 2009. Ish. Right. As I was starting my Ph.D. if that's right, that's when I started my

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:12:16] blog, the Mormon Therapist. And you reached out to me because of that.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] Yeah. And I think I heard your interview on Mormon expression first, and I was like, dang it, how did they get Natasha first?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:12:27] That's because I'm not good with names. And I thought that was the John Dehlin that was going to contact me, and it was John Larsen instead.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] Well, if you're gonna mistake me for another John, that's a good one to mistake me for. But, yeah, Natasha burst onto the scene around 2009 with a blog called the Mormon Therapist. And, you know, I should say that, you know, there's a lot of people, including myself, that have been trying to work with transitioning and post Mormons for years. Natasha, you've been doing this work as a licensed mental health professional, I want to say, for 20 years. Is that overestimating?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:13:05] Over 20 years now? 21, 22.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] Somewhere over 20 years. So there are few licensed therapists. I don't think there's any licensed therapists out there that's been doing this intensive work for this long as Natasha Helver Parker. So that's one reason to interview Natasha. Another reason to interview Natasha is she's a sex therapist. So in addition to being a marriage and family therapist, Natasha is one of the few Mormon licensed certified sex therapists. And that's an intense process, right, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:13:38] Yeah, it takes about an extra two or three years to get that certification.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] Yeah. So that's another reason we're interviewing Natasha. What's it like? Why did she become a sex therapist? Talk about her faith journey. Talk about what led her into marriage and family therapy. Talk about what led her to become a sex therapist. And, Natasha, I didn't prep you for this, but I think it'd be really cool to have a section on what are some of the most common presenting concerns that you deal with as a therapist and as a sex therapist and, you know, but. But we don't want any of that to eclipse your story because your story deserves its own full, comprehensive treatment in. In its own. In its own right. So, Richard asked what the subject of today's live podcast is, and the answer is Natasha. And the longer answer is an amazing person's life who has reached and touched and helped so many people from the perspective of a marriage family therapist and a sex therapist.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:14:39] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] Oh, my pleasure. So, Natasha Alpha Parker, officially welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:14:45] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:14:46] How's that for the introduction?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:14:47] Thanks for being here. That was quite the introduction.

John Dehlin [00:14:49] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:14:50] I'm super nervous, by the way, because I feel like I'm.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] It's so weird because you joined the Open Stories board when, like, 2012.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:14:58] Oh, gosh. When it first started.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] Yeah. So you've been on. I mean, I know we started late 2010, so you've been a part of the Open Stories family for a long time, so how could you be nervous? You're like a veteran.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:12] Because it's different. This is not me. I'm taking off my mental health hat a bit, and I'm just kind of showing up as my own person, and I don't normally do that on podcasts. I help other people do that. So this is a reversal.

John Dehlin [00:15:26] So tears will flow, Is that what you're saying?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:27] I'm sure tears will flow. So everybody just be prepared. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] Colleen is reminding us that you were interviewed on Mormon stories on sexuality, depression, faith, and marriage. And, yeah, I should clarify. You've been on Mormon Stories podcast many times, never as the focus of an individual interview.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:49] Right. So I've, you know, I've given lots of professional interviews where I speak from my kind of place of expertise. Right. So I have my expertise hat on, and you're asking me questions as a professional, and I'm sharing those, but I've never had necessarily. Let's just talk about Natasha and her life type of story interview.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] So this is your life. Are you ready?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:16:11] I'm ready.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] All right, so Tina writes, I'm so excited to finally hear your story. I've been curious about your journey for a long time, so let's dive in. Thanks, Tina. Okay, so, Natasha, tell us about your background. I know that you don't have a traditional pioneer heritage background in Mormonism, so talk about that.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:16:33] Okay. And before I even do that, I'm trying to take off my mental health hat off, but I'm going to keep it on just for a minute. Because I'm going to lay out my disclosures. Are you ready for my disclosures?

John Dehlin [00:16:45] I don't know if my listeners are ready, but I'm ready.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:16:47] Okay. So I just do want to, before I delve into my life, just kind of honor this idea that as mental health professionals it's difficult to balance this. How much do I personally disclose about myself? Because we know that it affects then the work that people can do with us personally. And sometimes those effects can actually be really great because we're modeling vulnerability, we're modeling diversity or examples of how we, I guess, deal with things. And it can also give a lot of implications as far as, oh well, if that's her faith journey, she won't understand my faith journey. Right. Or if that's her sexuality story, that's very different from my sexuality story. And so it can get in the way too of clinical work. And why even amongst the mental health field, there's a lot of discourse, especially at ethics conferences, around this topic of self disclosure. So I just want to be honest from the get go that I've thought a lot about what I'm going to talk about today and that at some level I am disclosing everything that I will disclose. First of all, with consent, I'm going to be talking about some very significant relationships in my life. So I have consent from the people who I'll be talking about and there will be things I won't be talking about because I don't have consent from certain people. And also that I am cognizant always that my self disclosure have a purpose. So I'm not just here to vent and I'm not just here to tell my story. Although I love the idea of telling my story and I think telling stories is really important from a therapeutic perspective, but that I can't completely take off my hat because of the role that I play in our community. And I just want to honor other mental health professionals because we had just this conversation with one of my therapist friends at this conference I was at just a few weeks ago, where being a therapist is a little bit lonely. It's a little bit lonely because as soon as people understand that that's the work you're in, there's a lot of assumptions. Maybe you can read me, maybe you know things about me. Maybe I want to be your friend so that you can give me a lot of great advice. Maybe I don't want to be your friend because you're going to know things about me or judge me if I don't act as a certain way or correctly. So it's just. It's just different. It's a different type of profession, and it kind of follows you wherever you go. So I just want to kind of just talk about that a little bit before I get into my own. My own story. And I will cry. Oh, I will cry. So just that's. I'm not going to apologize for that, but that will happen because that happens every time I talk about my story. Doesn't matter how many therapists I see, I still cry. So that will happen. And anything else, I think that's it.

John Dehlin [00:19:39] All right. That's very professional. And I appreciate those disclaimers. And I empathize with the dilemmas that you talk about.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:19:47] Oh, I'm sure you do. You've been a great example of sharing vulnerability, and I'm sure you get people who really honor that in you and people who really criticize you about that. So that's tough.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Yeah. And it's one thing to be a podcaster, it's another thing to be a mental health professional. People have different expectations, and so it can get tricky.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:20:09] Right, Right. And I'm trying to do both and be an advocate and all those things. So it's hard to balance the hat you're wearing.

Growing Up in Spain and Argentina

John Dehlin [00:20:18] All right, so let's jump in your story.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:20:19] All right, so. Yeah, my story. So I. Yes. I come from an American father who grew up in New York and White Plains area, and I come from a Argentine mother who grew up her whole life in Argentina. And neither one of them were Mormon. My mother started her journey in Catholicism and then rejected that as a probably an older teen or single young woman and tried Lutheran, her Lutheran roots. She had kind of a family that had both and then kind of rejected religion altogether for a while. My dad came from a family that wasn't very religious to begin with. There's Jewish roots on the helfer side. So we definitely have people who died in the Holocaust. We have helpers in France who escaped the Holocaust. We have that whole history. But he didn't grow up in a Jewish observant home. And then his mom was just interested in different things. So if he did anything, he'd go to probably Quaker meetings and things of that nature. So neither one of them were super religious when they got together. And any idea when.

John Dehlin [00:21:31] I don't expect you to know this, but any idea when in the family tree the people stopped being religious and why? Or is that just too far back to know?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:21:41] Well, my grandparents. So my dad's story of his grandparents was that his grandmother fixed the first kosher meal on the first wedding night when they were married. And the grandfather said something like, what the hell is this? And why do we need to do this? And that was kind of the end.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] Okay, so the end of Judaism at that point.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:07] I wish all faith transitions could be that simple. Right.

John Dehlin [00:22:09] Like, why the hell are we doing this? Okay, let's stop.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:16] So, yeah, so in fact, I didn't even know about my Jewish roots because my dad didn't really identify with that part of himself necessarily. It wasn't until I met one of my distant cousins and she was telling me about how she went to temple, and I was like, you go to temple? What does that mean? And I'm like, you converted to Judaism? And she's like, no, your family converted to Mormonism. And I'm like, oh, okay. So then that's how I started learning a lot about my Jewish history and my. So, yeah, so that. And I think for my grandmother's paternal grandmother's side, there just wasn't a lot of religious upbringing. My mother's side, there was a lot of Catholicism on her father's side and still is. In fact, I know that when she converted to Mormonism, there were some of her relatives who at that point opted not to have a relationship with her. And then on her mother's side, it was Lutheran. And as far as I know, they're very active in their Lutheran religion as well still.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] Okay, and so your dad was from the U.S. your mom was from Argentina.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:23:29] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] And was your dad a convert?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:23:32] Yeah. So they both converted at the same time when I was about five years old. We were living in Spain at the time, at a time that was, I guess, kind of different, why they were there. I mean, they had done a stint in the military. It was after the Vietnam War, and. And he wanted to go to medical school, but was somewhat older and didn't have the grades to probably be able to do that in the U.S. and so he was fluent in Spanish and got accepted into a Spanish medical school, which in those countries it's a little bit different than ours. It's kind of like anybody can make it in, but then you're weeded out pretty quickly. So he survived and graduated from that medical school. So we were there for, I'm guessing, five years. So it's my first language, Spanish. I was there until I was about. That's just before I was 8. So 7ish is when we moved back to the States. And it was an interesting political time in Spain, because Franco was still in power, he was a dictator. And so people really didn't believe that. My father was in medical school. I think they thought he was probably working for the CIA or some type of spy or. I don't totally understand all the politics, but we weren't very welcomed, I guess, is what I would say. So my parents were lonely and they were looking for friendships and here come the Mormon missionaries and knock on our door, which the Mormon missionary, I guess, had just been opened not that long before. So there was. Madrid had Mormons, but everywhere else they were just opening it. Like there was no chapel in Valladolid where we lived. And so we were the first Mormons. They had to travel to Madrid to get baptized. And the first few meetings were held in our little tiny apartment. I remember what must have been the mission president coming to visit with all of his blonde kids. And I was fascinated. I mean, I was like, who are these blonde children? And I just wanted to touch their hair. So we eventually rented a butcher shop that was freezing. I remember every Sunday we were freezing. And. And they built their chapel there in Vajadolid the year after we left. So we were the very first members of that city and still keep in touch with some of those members that started that whole process with us.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] So. Yeah. So joining the church in Spain, where there's not even a branch in your local town, that's a different Mormon story, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:26:09] Very different and very idealistic. Right.

John Dehlin [00:26:14] So how.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:26:15] Well, I think the Mormon message is very friendly. Families can be together. It's heavenly Father loves you and cares about you, and here's this restoration that is important and God is still talking to us and wants us to know what he thinks. And so my parents didn't know anything about polygamy. My parents didn't know anything about temple recommend questions. You know, they didn't know anything about a lot of the cultural things that we struggle with, maybe when we're more knowledgeable. So it was very loving, community oriented. The missionaries, of course, were wonderful young men, super affirming people. The people who were joining, it was like this new thing. So it was exciting. Everybody got to have a job. I remember speaking at every sacrament meeting because there was only like ten of us, right. So. So we, as a seven year old, I'd get up there and give my little talk on whatever. And the songs were beautiful and everything is simple and edifying.

John Dehlin [00:27:24] I'm gonna guess your dad would have been a candidate for branch president.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:27:29] Yeah, well, actually he wasn't. I think probably because he was so busy with medical school. But my mother was the first Relief Society president and we were very involved. Yeah, there all the time was our social network. It was our friends. I don't remember really having any friends other than our Mormon friends.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] So were you born in Spain?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:27:48] I was born in Germany while they were still in the military, but I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:27:52] And then you left Spain at what age?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:27:54] When I was seven.

John Dehlin [00:27:56] Okay, so before getting baptized. So yeah. So you just sounds like you have really fond memories of that time in the church.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:28:03] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] So where'd you go after Spain?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:28:06] Well, so then we moved to probably 12 different places before I graduate from high school. So we don't necessarily need to go into each one of those, necessarily. But we do move back to the United States and we start going to, you know, USA Church. And that was really different. It was very. In some ways it was exciting. You know, you're going to the US of A. I was so excited to speak English. I remember practicing my English in the mirror in Spain and feeling all elegant and sophisticated. So, you know, and then the real Mormons, you know, it's going to be the real church and how they really should be doing it. And so there's all that kind of like power that you give the United States as foreigners that at least I felt. I don't know that my parents necessarily felt that way, but I felt that way. And yeah, getting baptized, I got baptized that first year that we were back. And my parents probably go in and out of activity throughout the rest of my time with them. You know, growing up, we always identified as Mormon. We always went to Mormon church as a family who moved a lot. It was instant community and that was very, very helpful. At the same time, I never quite felt like I fit in. I wasn't the right type of Mormon. I didn't have the right history. I wasn't pioneer. You know, all the messages on pioneers and all that just felt like it wasn't my story. So I didn't quite fit in. I didn't know as much as all the other kids knew. I didn't know my scriptures the way the other kids knew them. I had to relearn all the hymns in English. So things that I was really comfortable with or felt very Mormon in Spain, even though it was a pretty young age, all of a sudden I definitely felt like the adopted child in my United States Mormon experience. And that culminated for me at byu because I never lived in Mormon esque places. We always lived outside of what you call the Mormon Bible Belt or the Book of Mormon belt. And so I thought, when I go to byu, I'll finally be in a place where people understand me and know me and I can be my true Mormon self. And then realizing that I didn't fit in at BYU either, and that was very painful. So with my non Mormon friends, I was the conservative prude, and with my Mormon friends, I was the liberal rebel. And I never quite fit in.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] Right. Jorge Camberro is asking if primary in Spain was different from primary in the U.S. do you even remember?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:30:41] Well, it was still during the time that they had it during the week. So we went during the week to primary. And so it was super fun. I mean, it was like a play date. I don't necessarily remember the construct, like if it was exactly, if it follows the same protocol, but I just remember having a lot of fun having lessons. We would always put on the nativity scene for Christmas. You know, like, we just. We were oftentimes encouraged to share our testimonies as kiddos, of course, and have talks. I mean, it was. It was something I looked forward to.

John Dehlin [00:31:15] Yeah. Okay. So jumping so from state to state, I guess in the US Is that mostly it was in the US Your time after coming back from Spain?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:31:25] Yes, all in the US but never

John Dehlin [00:31:28] in Utah during those K through 12 years.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:31:31] There was one year that we lived out in Dugway, Utah Proving Grounds. Dugway Proving Grounds. So military base out in the middle of nowhere, Utah. So that didn't really give me the Mormon experience that the rest of Utah necessarily has.

John Dehlin [00:31:46] Right. So mostly, you know, non Utah upbringing. Yeah. Talk about, you know, your faith as, let's just say as a Mormon teen and what that was built on or what that looked like. And then any other experiences in adolescence or your teenage years that you think were important in shaping your story?

Early Mormon Faith and Family Activity

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:32:10] Okay, Yeah, I think. I mean, we were all in. Even though my parents fluctuated on their activity level, it wasn't because of testimony issues. It was more just probably a reality of their crazy lives. You know, they were moving a lot. That my dad was constantly working on Sundays as a doctor. I mean, there was all kinds of reasons why they didn't attend church, but. And there started to be a few issues, like when my mother did find out about polygamy and some of the issues with Joseph Smith. I remember her, you know, having quite a few angry, what we call diatribes in our house. She's definitely a typical Latina as far as talkative and fun that way. So very expressive. So she would share a lot of her expressive concerns about Joseph Smith and the history of polygamy and what it meant for her. And whether or not this was something we still believed in was very, very unclear to us. I remember that being a question I would ask every single bishop. Every time we'd move, I'd go in and ask the bishop, is this something that we still believe in? And just feel like the answers were never satisfying. So that was something that was concerning to our family. But as far as everything else, you know, I was, I believed it. It was the restoration, it was the true church. It was where I needed to be grateful, and I was grateful. I remember having many of those types of thoughts anytime anything would happen. I remember in specific, a gentleman died while a young boy died in my high school from a car accident. And just remembering, like, I'm so glad, I'm so glad that I understand that he's, you know, in a better place and that he can be with his family again. And if his family doesn't believe that, how could they even survive, you know, the grief of something like that? So just being very grateful for my Mormon beliefs, being very grateful for my doctrinal understandings at the time, and wanting to be a good Mormon girl for the most part. So. And I think for the most part I was, you know, I didn't drink or have any issues really with the word of wisdom. I remember having strategies like I would hold a beer can at a high school party and just if I was holding it, then people didn't have to offer me another one. I could just assume that I was drinking. I had my strategies for living in non Mormon places where I could still feel like I fit in. So things like that. But I, you know, but when it came to my sexuality, then that's a whole other thing that I'd like to talk a little bit more about because that's a huge part of my story. But as far as being active, even when my parents weren't active, I mean, we laugh our heads off thinking about it now, but I would gather all my siblings, I'm the oldest, four, and we would go to church. You know, I'd get everybody ready to go. And sometimes, you know, my parents weren't home or whatever. We realized we didn't have gas money. We're all looking for, you know, change, and we'd go get two bucks of gas or whatever and head to church and never once thought about the idea that we were breaking the word of wisdom. I mean, the word of wisdom, the Sabbath. Right. That we were just, we needed gas to get to church. So, you know, now as an adult, looking back on that and thinking of myself because I've played those roles too now. Right. Where I was really soccer president or I was in the women's and seeing four kids walk into your ward, kind of, that just drove themselves there on their own. Probably was. We were probably looked at from an interesting perspective.

John Dehlin [00:36:01] Tori writes, I'm so glad someone else felt like they were too liberal in Mormondom but too conservative for the rest of your friends. I feel trapped. So Tori is Tori's relating to adolescent Natasha.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:16] Yes. Well, it's not even adolescent Natasha. It's sex therapy Natasha. Every time I go to these sex therapy conferences, I'm like, I'm back to being the prude. And then it's like I come back to my Mormon world and I'm like, ah, I'm back to being the rebel. And I don't really, you know, I don't really identify with either one of those things. Personally, I don't feel like I'm conservative and I don't feel like I'm a prude. But that's how people will choose to see you for lots of different reasons.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] Yeah. Tori asks how you work around these feelings to stay active and we'll get to that. Tori, you gotta stay tuned to get the answer to that question.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:52] Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] Becca's referring to your strategy, your drinking strategy in high school, your non drinking strategy in high school. And she says, avoid even the very appearance of evil. That's what Becca writes.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:37:03] Right?

John Dehlin [00:37:03] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:37:04] Yeah. So I, for whatever reason, kind of like with the Sabbath story, for me, usefulness was always, I have to figure out how to do this in a useful way. And the rest of it never made me feel that guilty. So I never was like, I need to find useful ways. So if I'm breaking the Sabbath because I need to get gas, that's fine. If I have the appearance of evil, well, at least I'm not drinking the beer.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] Was it ever important to you to kind of follow Moroni's promise and read the Book of Mormon explicitly and pray to know if it's true or not?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:37:38] It was important, although that's not my strength, so I can't say I ever completely did that. I never sat down, you know, for three days and just read the whole Book of Mormon from, from front to cover. I'm sure over the years I've read the entire Book of Mormon plenty of times, but never in that. But I would pray, so I would I was always hopeful that even though I haven't sat down and read it all right in this moment, that I could get an answer of whether or not it was true.

John Dehlin [00:38:07] Right. Okay. And so would you say by the time you graduate high school, how would you describe your testimony?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:38:16] Yeah, very strong. I was ready to go to byu. I was accepted to Brigham Young. I took a year off and actually visited my family in Argentina for a year. So I lived in Argentina for an entire year, just getting to know my Argentina roots. And then NBYU honored my acceptance and took me back the year after that. So I went to Brigham Young fully in and stayed fully in throughout Brigham Young experience.

Childhood and Adolescent Experiences With Sexuality

John Dehlin [00:38:44] So backing up a tiny bit just to kind of start weaving the sex thread in, were there any experiences in childhood or adolescence around sex or sexuality that were formative for you?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:38:58] Yeah, so I have a history of sexual abuse in my past, and that happened from a pretty early age. And I've had different types of experiences with that throughout my life. Even what I would call more sexual assault type things that happen with strangers, but not anything where, you know, I was necessarily, you know, like, raped behind the bushes or things like that. But, you know, inappropriate touching or experiences like in buses or subways in busy cities where I was definitely groped or things of that nature. So that happened to me several times as a teenager and a college student. But then I do also have this sexual abuse history from early childhood. And, you know, when you're. And this is something I talk about often as a mental health professional, when we're, you know, dealing with even consensual teenagers who are having sex within the church, we don't really know what their experiences are. And if you would have sat me down when I was 15 and I was probably or 16 when I first went to my first confession, if somebody would have asked me.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] Well, your first confession.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:40:10] My first confession. Right. We're not that different. And so, you know, if somebody would have sat me down at that age and said, well, do you think that there's anything that would have formulated your decisions to have premarital sex? I would have been like, I don't know what you're talking about. Right. I wouldn't have had the developmental maturity at 15, 16, 17, even in my early 20s to understand whether or not that impacted me in this different realm. Right. So that was my realm where there was abuse, but then there was my realm where I was feeling very much in control. And my choices of whether or not or how much I would be sexual with my boyfriends, etc. But now from a 45 year old perspective, I can see that that was all pretty much intertwined. My sexual history was all intertwined as it is for everyone. So it's unfortunate when we make these assumptions that people's behaviors mean certain things when they can mean a lot more than that.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] Yeah, and let me just see if I can ask a question about that. Do you feel like there's decent evidence, or at least correlational evidence to support the idea that if a kid experiences sexual abuse or sexual assault, they're more likely to be sexually active as a teen?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:41:34] I think that there's, there's.

John Dehlin [00:41:36] Well, there's a correlation between it.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:41:39] Yeah, I think those correlations are very difficult. I think so. Anecdotally, I think that I've seen it go both ways where people have sexual abuse experiences and then repress their sexuality, don't really want anything to do with their sexuality. And then yes, there are people who experience sexual abuse and it's kind of like I'm already damaged goods or this is how I've learned how to get love and attention. And so that's how I'm going to respond in my relationships in my day to day life. I mean, there's all different kinds of reasons why people or why those kinds of things may affect our sexuality. And of course it can also do with mental health. So if you've been sexually abused in a home where there's chronic abuse, your chances of having a personality disorder go up, your chances of having mental health diagnoses go up. And we know that with certain types of those mental health diagnoses, some of the symptoms have to do with sexual behavior like bipolar, borderline, etc.

John Dehlin [00:42:37] So were you kind, are you, are you sort of, are you telling us that you were sexually active as a teen and then are you saying that you, your 45 year old self sort of says that that may have been tied to some of that early sexual trauma?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:42:55] Yeah. So maybe, maybe not. It's stuff that it's very hard to parse out even in my own life. You know, how much of if I had never had sexual abuse, would I have had a significantly different experience or choices? I'm not exactly sure, but I would imagine that they did affect me. And I have a piece that I've written if we want to just that I've written kind of just TED Talk, like to kind of talk about my thoughts on this because I wrote this last year just kind of when I was thinking through a lot of this is it okay if I read that?

John Dehlin [00:43:29] Sure, of course.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:30] Start there. As far as my decision, and this is probably where I'm gonna cry.

John Dehlin [00:43:33] Don't do it, don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Okay, I'm kidding. Tears are encouraged on Mormon's. Tears are encouraged.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:43:42] Tears are a sign of strength on Mormon's.

Premarital Sexual Experiences and LDS Guilt

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:45] All right, so this piece is called Musings. Musings. Is that how you say it? I still get my words wrong for being bilingual, so people have to deal with that. Anyway, Musings From a Mormon Sex Therapist How Having Premarital Sex Damaged Me so this is my title. A lot of times I am asked why I became a sex therapist and I lovingly joke that the Mormons drove me to it since sexual dysfunction or dissatisfaction is not uncommon in the work I do with LDS couples. But as I continually journey along my personal path, I realize the process has been just as healing for me in recognizing how I was affected by the rhetoric found in Mormon teachings in regards to my own sexual development and story. As a junior in high school, I began a dating relationship with one of the seniors at my school. He was wonderful Mexican American young man who came from a different religious background. His family was non practicing Catholic and mine was practicing Mormon LDS at the time. He was spicy, great vibrant personality, lots of humor, lots of zest for life and this young man courted me and doted on me, affirmed me on a regular basis and fell deeply in love with me and I with him. I remember walking hand in hand often through the school halls and him waiting by my locker to escort me to wherever I was going next. He would find ways to get the hall monitor job at school so he could come into whatever class I happened to be in and sneak me love notes. He would compliment me often and not only in the beauty he saw in me, but he listened to my dreams and aspirations, respected my goals. I was definitely a tad bit more studious than he and he was proud that he thought I was smart. While not being threatened by that, he prioritized developing a good relationship with my parents and siblings and generally loved hanging out with them. He suffered through several repeats of Ben Hur with my dad, which is commendable, spending hours teaching my little brothers the lyrics and dance moves to Ice Ice Baby. He was thoughtful, he was kind, he was funny and made me laugh often, and he was invested. As we continued our year and a half relationship, we naturally became more and more sexual. He was lucky to have parents who prepared him with frank Honest discussions about sexuality, provided him with condoms and reiterated the importance of being respectful of my boundaries. I felt a lot of love from them. They were very nice to me. Teaching Principles of Consent My first time having intercourse is a moment I remember. I've never read this out loud so you're gonna have to just deal with me. I'm sorry is a moment I remember feeling warm and enveloped with love and being pain blood free. Meaning I was adequately aroused and knowing it was an intentional yet organic act, I could not have anticipated going so well. I was safe, I was aglow and our relationship continued in such a way until my family moved away and the realities of our age and circumstance naturally separated us. There was no negative or conflictual heartbreak other than the sadness of being apart. So how was it that this experience damaged me? Well, the backdrop for this teen love affair was the construct of my religious background. I was receiving a steady flow of abstinence based, fear based and shame based sexual education. Here are some of the experiences and messages I was grappling and feeling in constant tension with so one. I was obviously taught that premarital sex was a sin. A sin that would separate me from the presence of God in my life and his continual guidance and protection. 2. I was taught that premarital sex was not a loving act. If you really loved the person you were with, you would never put them in such a compromising position. Prior to marriage, this act was only about lust and selfishness and I was deluding myself to think I was being loving as a lover. 3. I was taught that those that have premarital sex are either weak or care only about satiating based desires, attacking the character and worthiness of anyone who would give in to the natural man in such a thoughtless, irresponsible way. Four. I remember one of my young women leaders bringing a batch of yummy smelling brownies to Sunday school class with all of us girls excited to dig in, but then warned us that she had mixed in two tablespoons of her baby's poop from that morning's diaper into the batter. So did we still want to take a bite? With the metaphor being if you're sexually experienced, who's going to want you for a spouse? And not that this is in my writing, but I always remember being more traumatized by the fact that I still wanted a brownie that made me think, do I have an eating disorder? They smelled really good. All right. I remember learning about the atonement where we could achieve redemption from our sins, but only after a Full detailed confession, a full abandonment of the sinful behavior itself. If you repeated the sin, you obviously weren't really humbling yourself enough and being repentant. And I was taught that the atonement itself was limited by the following object lesson. They showed me a nail being hammered into a wooden board representing the sin. The other side of the hammer removing the nail representing the atonement, but showing the whole left behind, representing that even when you repent, you're never quite the same as before, damaged and altered somehow in an irrevocable way. Number six. The first time I confessed my sin to a bishop after we had moved away from my boyfriend, this otherwise loving, gentle and supportive man in my life who I really have still a lot of respect for, he was wonderful to me and my family. Yet he told me that I had committed a sin only second to murder. The doctrinal thoughts behind this statement come from Book of Mormon scripture and are interpreted in the following. Having premarital sex risks an unwanted pregnancy, toying with the creative powers God has bestowed upon us, similar to murder. In that murder also affects the existence of a human life. You have to understand, I wrote this for a non Mormon audience.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] Right, sure, of course. But it's good because we have a lot of non Mormon listeners.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:49] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] Yeah, okay.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:51] He also told me that I had to be very cautious to never see this young man again, because once you have sex with someone, it's almost impossible to not do so again. A powerful suggestion that became prophetic in my situation during the few times we would visit each other later. You know, because we, this young man and I met each other several times during our college years, confirming my inner sense of weakness. I also think it's important to note that Mormon leaders are lay and do not go through any formal theological or counseling training, much less sexual education training. The second time I confessed my sin, I was a university student at BYU and was promptly suspended mid semester. I had to interrupt my education. And withdraw from my classes with no tuition reimbursement and was not allowed to return until I could get an ecclesiastical recommendation that I had repented sufficiently of my sins, which took two semesters off my timeline towards graduating with my culture. Additionally, the bishop that happened to oversee my suspension had a cold and rigid personality and breached confidentiality when my parents were calling him, distressed as to what was happening and why. It's a whole podcast in of itself and I was very naive. You have to understand that for me, signing the honor code was, of course I want to be good and I want to, you know, behave and to go mid semester and just go and do what I was supposed to do and repent. I never dreamed that this would be the consequence, you know. And I remember one of my teachers trying to help me. She was not a member and she was my psychology teacher and I remember telling her, but I deserve this, this is what I deserve. So just my whole frame was so different. It was my parents and my psychology teacher that were like, what the hell's going on? But anyway, okay. I don't think it takes much imagination as to how these messages and experiences could have affected a 16 to 19 year old girl where her biggest sin was exploring her sexuality with a boy she truly loved, or how they could continue to affect her for many years to come. These things colored my relationship with God, my self esteem and sense of worth, my self confidence, my future relationships, perceived options and my decisions. After returning to my studies and graduating, I started dating my current husband, a white young man from the midwestern states, also a product of this sex ed environment. He was very dedicated and committed member of the church. It served a two year mission and had kept himself sexually pure and worthy for marriage. He was a virgin. My previous indiscretions did not come up until we were already attached and talking about marital possibilities. I was afraid to share my past, thinking a man like him wouldn't want to see someone like me. I'm just sad. These young kids, So sad for these younger versions of ourselves. Conflicted between the tensions of being open and transparent with someone I would share the rest of my life with. Justifying that this was private personal information I had a right to keep to myself. And I had actually had several bishops tell me that I didn't need to tell anybody about this. Although we still married after my disclosure, this information had a dramatic impact on the first five years of our marriage with my husband feeling deeply betrayed that I had shared this type of intimacy with someone other than he. The intimacy I should have guarded and protected. Meanwhile, I fluctuated between feeling immense guilt and shame for not being the right type of wife, clean and virtuous, and being enraged that I would be made to feel less than for something that had happened years before we had even met. This Mormon setup affected our ability to enjoy our honeymoon years, to attach our ability to be sexually free with one another, and was driving a wedge between us that I wasn't sure we could recover from by some amazing shift that I still don't completely understand. Maybe as we started raising children together, we began to heal and began to turn towards one another instead of staying in defensive postures, licking our own wounds to the point that we are now able to celebrate our teenage selves, celebrate the experiences we had and the choices we made within the constructs of the pasts that led us to one another, feel intimate connection both emotionally and sexually, and share our deepest secrets and fantasies with the knowledge and pleasure that it is safe to do so. But it wasn't Mormonism that helped us do this. It was our ability to reclaim both our personal and relational authority from the limiting and harmful rhetoric we had been spoon fed our entire developmental years recently. Last fall I reached out to this man who dated me in high school and invited him to share dinner with me. We had not seen each other in 25 years. It's kind of stuff movie scenes are made of, full of nervous yet anticipatory energy, a warm embrace followed by hours of conversation, laughter, shared memories and even some tears. We caught each other up on our lives, our children, our loves and heartbreaks. We even shared tender moments of the sadness we both felt and never being able to have closure in the feelings we had developed together, that our separation had felt forced by life circumstances and that the what ifs had then naturally had an impact on both of our lives. It was so profoundly healing and cathartic for me to be able to tell him what a wonderful influence he had been in my life. At such an important developmental stage and at a point in my life where I was free of the tragic shame and guilt I had always felt clouded my view of our other wise, lovely relationship things I never told them at the time we dated. I want to thank this man for his capacity to be a caring, healthy, patient and affirming 18 year old boyfriend. Something I stand in awe of now from the perspective of a 45 year old woman. He helped me know that good relationships were possible. I didn't have to settle for less as I went on to date many other types and personalities. He will always carry a meaningful and positive space in my heart that is no longer threatening to me. I want to thank my husband for the work he was willing to do to change a narrative that was driving a deep wedge between us and recover from a wounded, painful space where he could choose me instead of dogma. Although I was the therapist, he was the one who was instrumental and intentional in helping us turn away from the potential of lifelong toxicity between us instead of the egalitarian, erotic and loving partnership we share and treasure today. I was too wounded and hurt and reactionary to do the work that we needed to do. And I honor that he took the lead when I couldn't. And I want to thank whatever resilient part of myself existed in that 16 year old girl that was finally able to call bullshit. Recognizing the emotional and psychological abuse I had withstood for so many years that affected so many areas of my life and stopped buying into a system that was harmful to my soul, my sensuality and my personhood. I'm so proud of not only this young version of self, but also proud of the woman I am today. Deeply connected with my version of divinity and spirituality and looking forward to what the rest of life has to offer. Okay, that's my piece.

John Dehlin [00:59:25] So beautiful. That's a TED Talk waiting to happen right there. Thank you for the honor of sharing that with us, Natasha.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:59:35] I did, just to just to be clear, I did have one other person that I was sexual with that I also had a very long term relationship with and that's the person I'm not going to speak much about because I don't never had contact with that person again, so. But we were engaged to be married and had quite a few experiences ourselves that were difficult but that ended up not working out and I want to honor his confidentiality by not speaking much about that.

John Dehlin [01:00:08] No problem. Well, thank you. What an honor for you to share with us something so vulnerable and so meaningful. Just from the comments of our listeners, Crystal writes, I appreciate your honesty and courage, Natasha. Thanks for all you do, Dave. Carrie write, I feel less alone. Lori wrote, I really dislike those analogies of being a chewed piece of gum, et cetera. Heather writes, this is also true. Becca writes, thanks for being so open and vulnerable. My heart hurts for your teenage self. Ann writes, I'm bawling. Our experiences are so similar down to the bishop experience. Mary writes, devastating. I can't read all the comments and encouragement that's coming in because it's just so many. So man, thank you for sharing. So is it okay if I just ask maybe a few questions about all that?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:01:07] Yeah, for sure. And thank you to everybody who's commenting. And it took me a long time to be willing to tell this story publicly because it is very private and it involves other people. But that's why I want to share it because it is a shared story. It is a shared story. So many of us have experienced. This is not my story. This is our collective Mormon story. For those of us who grew up with this, including our leaders who grew up with very similar messages themselves, it's systemic story.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] Yeah. So when you when you first had sex with your first boyfriend, were you conflicted? Were you feeling, oh, I love this person and I really feel attracted to them. But I've been taught the law of chastity, and what do I do? Because as you read that first story, it sounded so beautiful. It almost sounded void of the conflict maybe one might expect from a, you know, a really orthodox, devout Mormon. Talk about that, if you don't mind.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:02:13] I absolutely felt the tension between those two things so that I. It was kind of like the. Yes. And I talk about, you know, on the one hand, yes, I was having this beautiful relationship. I loved being with him. It was very pleasurable. You know, he cared about my pleasure, I cared about his. I mean, we were young and probably stupid. And not that I'm like a great proponent of having sex when you're 16, necessarily, but for whatever reasons, for us, it was a very wonderful experience. And at the same time, I was racked with guilt, racked with these doubts, felt bad. I would take the sacrament because I didn't want anybody to know. I was being very secretive. That's where my secretive behavior started as far as keeping things from, of course, my parents or the church leaders. So it was a constant tension between having this thing that I really loved in my life and then feeling and knowing without a doubt that I was doing something irrevocably wrong and even taking some of the responsibility. Like, he wasn't a Mormon, so I was the one that was really harming both of us. Right. Because I knew better. How was he supposed to know? For him, he loved me and he thought this was fine, but I knew better. So I was taking on kind of the responsibility for both of us, like damning us to hell or something together and that. And I think, you know, looking back, and that's why I wanted to talk to him last fall, is because I felt like I probably wasn't very loving. He said I was, but I felt like I was constantly. Had a boundary wall with him. You know, he could tell me nice things, but I wasn't necessarily very proactively giving him back a lot of what he was giving me because I was so like, oh, but what we're doing is bad. So it kind of affected my ability to really dive in and love him the way that I would want to love a partner. Now.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] Got it. So when. So this is going to be repeating a bit, maybe some of the details of what you already mentioned in the essay, but. So how long was it before you first spoke to a bishop about this or did you?

Confessing to Bishops and BYU Consequences

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:04:28] Yeah, so it was pretty much probably a few months into my moving away from him, so I kind of knew that.

John Dehlin [01:04:34] So you had about a year or two with him, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:04:37] Yeah, I was about a year and a half with him and then we moved away. And so probably within a few months I knew. I mean, I knew all along that was just the Mormon thing to do. I knew all along that I would have to take care of this. Right. That I would have to fix this somehow at some point in my life. So when I moved away and I wasn't with him anymore and I wasn't having sex with other people, so what better time to go in and face what I had done?

John Dehlin [01:05:03] And you, you know the part about the messages the church sends around sexuality both in terms, you know, the chewed gum or the licked cupcake or the, you know, the poop and the cupcake or whatever it is, and then the board and the nails in the board and the whole remaining. Do you remember hearing those stories after you had had sex but before you had repented?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:05:28] Yes, I remember hearing them before having sex and after having sex and having them make me feel very uncomfortable and crummy both times.

John Dehlin [01:05:36] Right, but, but, but it's got to be especially crummy after. Right, because you're.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:05:41] Yeah, because you know, you're like, yes, yes. You know that you're what they're talking about. And there's. And I remember even prior to this relationship that I had in high school being probably more when I was closer to 13 or so so recently into young women's, and they had had this kind of contract that we were supposed to sign that we had promised not to have premarital sex. Kind of like the purity type contracts that you see more here in evangelical America. But for some reason it had made it into this Sunday school lesson or young women's lesson. And I remember signing it and thinking, how am I gonna know? Like, how am I promising to do this when I don't know what I'm gonna think when I'm 17 or 18 or 25 or when I'm gonna get married? So I felt really even uncomfortable as a 13 year old, promising the bishop or the young women's leaders that I was going to monitor my behavior in a certain way that I felt like was still up to decide.

John Dehlin [01:06:43] Yeah, yeah. And I imagine you felt tormented. So tormented until you talked to your bishop. And that's probably why you went to talk to your bishop. And it sounds like you didn't have a great experience with Your bishop.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:06:58] Well, I feel like looking back at it now, it's that piece about the sin next to murder that was awful. At the time, I was just like, wait, what? I've done what? And kind of really being distraught about that. I could have done something so serious. But again, there's this part of me that would always be like, well, is it really that bad? I had that capacity more so than maybe some of my OCD clients. Right. Or something. Right. Where I would kind of listen and I would ponder it and it would hurt and it would have an impact. But at the same time, I had something in me that protected me and said, I can't be that bad. I think I'm an okay person. I can't be, like, a murderer type of thing. Looking back at it now, I feel like that was extremely damaging. At the time, I wouldn't have said I was extremely damaged otherwise. He was very loving, and I feel, like, appropriate. He only said that one thing that sticks out in my mind that I feel like was harmful. But otherwise, I mean, he didn't pry. He didn't ask inappropriate questions or details. He did share that I shouldn't see him again. And he did share this one sentence that was really pretty awful for me to hear.

John Dehlin [01:08:14] So did the. Did you feel. Did you try and access the atonement, and did you feel cleansed by the atonement? Did the repentance process make you feel better?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:08:24] Yes. So going through all the steps and doing what I felt was the right thing to do was very. I mean, it's kind of like if you think that's the right thing to do and you do it, you're gonna feel good about that. And I did feel good that I was making the choice to take these steps that I had been taught were the right steps to take.

John Dehlin [01:08:42] Right. And so you. And did you ever. Do you remember telling your parents around that time, or did you kept it from them?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:08:50] Okay, yeah, no, my parents didn't know about anything until much later.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Okay, so do you remember then going to BYU and then. And you mentioned a second experience in there as well. But speaking specifically to the BYU experience, what was it like for you to see yourself going down that same road after having experienced something so traumatic before? Do you remember what that was like?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:09:17] Yeah. So the first time I had sex again was again with this young man who came to visit me, like, two years later. Right. So I'd gone my senior year of high school without really any significant boyfriends. I mean, I dated a lot and had a Lot of fun, but nothing significant. And then I went my first year at BYU without having much success in the dating realm. And the second year, he visited me, and this is when I fell right back into similar behavior with him. And I remember just playing that back in my mind, you know, like, oh, they were right. And now I've wrecked myself again, and now I'm gonna have to start all over again. And I'm such a loser. But since I was already there, I was still having sex with him. Might as well enjoy the moment. Why not keep it going? Since I'm gonna have to do that again sometime in the future, I'm not gonna do it right now. So it's not like I had sex with him one day and went immediately, immediately to the bishop the next. It was kind of like, at this point, what's the point? And actually, I didn't go to the bishop after that for a while because then I had this other significant relationship where we were sexually active. And then it was after that that I went to the bishop and why I was, you know, kicked out of byu.

John Dehlin [01:10:37] What made you decide to go to the bishop the second time?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:10:41] I think just that. That same call to get myself right with God, right. And be in a place where I can feel worthy and feel like I was a good person again. So very much infiltrates this messaging of who you are as a person, that somehow I'm a bad person. I mean, probably one of my most therapeutic moments ever was at a sex therapy conference where we're having to self disclose somewhat to other therapists and talk. And so I very seriously. It was probably the first time I had ever mentioned something publicly. I was like, yes, I've. I've had three sexual partners in my life, and the lady next to me is like, that's it. And just having her reaction like that was so, like, it just jolted me out of my own lived experience, right? That here I was thinking this was a travesty and that I was somehow loose or who knows what I was thinking. All these stereotypes, right, that we give to women, even in our broader culture, about slut shaming and things of that nature. I felt very much like. Like a sleazy type of give myself to anybody type of person. Really. All of my sexual relationships have been in very significant relationships that we were together for a long time. However, I also want to be very careful that as I'm talking about my own story, there's. There's room for casual sex, right? I'm not trying to shame that so that Just wasn't my experience. I never, I had a lot of casual making outs and I had a lot of casual things where we probably pushed the limits, you know, like you do at BYU and things of that nature. But for some reason, you know, my sexual experiences that I would call intercourse were with people who are very significant in my life.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] Right. You know, and you brought up such a, such a powerful point in that essay because it really was, you know, you were, I guess, fortunate enough to have a caring first partner and a healthy, fulfilling, positive first sexual experience. And in some ways that's like a huge gift. And there's a Mormon part of my brain that's like, you know, you know that no, wait a minute. A high school kid is never allowed to have a very positive, healthy, edifying first sexual experience that categorically by definition has to be evil and toxic and damaging. But then if I kind of take that part of my brain off, like, why the heck not? Why isn't it like adolescence can be really crummy and if it's in the right way with the right partner and it happens to happen because two people choose it, what's wrong with that? Wouldn't it be better that that be wonderful and healing and comfortable versus, you know, unpleasurable or uncomfortable or, you know, something else? Right. Why can't an 18 year old have a fabulous first sexual experience and feel great about it?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:13:53] Right, exactly. And I think a lot of times the rhetoric that we give our teenagers about fear and this is much larger than Mormonism, kind of sets the stage. We're teaching them that, yeah, it's probably going to be bad and so why not have a bad experience then? And sometimes they legitimately are really bad because we're not very educated or there's issues with consent or things of that nature. But that's also true with adults. You know, as adults we tend to minimize our kids experiences. Oh, it's just puppy love. It's just this, it's just silly. But those hormones and those, that, that developmental stage of teenagerhood and adolescent where you're starting to really feel this capability to attach and be sexual with somebody is very real. And we have done a very poor job of preparing them to deal with the realness of that. And just to say, oh, that's for adults that don't do it, well, that's not good enough. So then of course you're going to have a lot of negative experiences. And I think that me and this young man just kind of lucked out. I mean, we were just I could have had a much harsher response with my own sexual shame, but for some reason, I was able to shelf that. Like, I'll worry about that later. And so it didn't stop us from continuing to have really wonderful times together.

John Dehlin [01:15:16] Yeah, well, wonderful. So as far as getting kicked out of BYU goes, that's still happening all the time. And I'm just wondering if you could talk a bit about what that's like. You talked about losing the money, losing the time, losing the credit. I'm sure you've got strong thoughts around how that impacts people.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:15:44] I just don't understand how this is even still possible for this to be happening. Where your education, your professional adult education is affected by behaviors that a church deems religiously sinful or not. I mean, I can understand expecting kids to. Or kids. See, I'm not going to call them kids for expecting young adults to. If you're going to go to a religious university, we want you to keep a certain code of behavior. And if you don't keep to that code, we're going to work with you ecclesiastically, or we're going to. And obviously every school has behavior that you do get expelled for, you know, and usually that's criminal behavior. Right? That's. That's behavior that crosses a line into criminality. But to have, you know, and of course, they've just flowed through my office throughout these many years. Anything from masturbation, pornography, viewing sex, they have to leave the school. And so the unintended consequence of that is so ridiculous, even in. Of itself, even from the LDS framework. It's like kids learn, they see what happens to their friends. So what you ultimately do is you just stop people from having a relationship that's honest with their ecclesiastical leader, the smart kids. I'm not getting kicked out, so I'm not going to go talk to my bishop about whether or not I'm having sex. So it just conflates. The consequences conflated in a way that's so weird. And yes, I don't even know where to begin to talk about this issue. And constantly.

John Dehlin [01:17:26] Why not let them finish their semester or finish their year? Why not support them in a transition to help them find the next best place to go to school? Like, why does it have to be cut off your semester, send you home punitively? I mean, if you're believing, you're already going to feel bad enough as it is. Right, right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:17:47] I went in with the purest of intents. I went in trying to reach out with. I want to connect with God. So even if you're going to take the TBM perspective or the more traditional perspective, why are we not helping those young adults that we know are slated to leave religion? Because right now, young adults are leaving religion left and right. Why aren't we reaching out to them in these moments where they're reaching out to church leadership and saying, hey, I need help or I want to change a behavior in my life? Why are we doing this in such a rigid, punitive way? It's a tradition that's just unnecessary for people to come back and say, well, you signed the honor code and you knew. I actually. I didn't read the fine print. I didn't know that this was necessarily going to happen to me. I was just shocked, actually, when it happened to me. There's just a lot of assumptions in that honor code as far as what could or couldn't happen. And there's bishop's roulette that we know of, and there's all these kinds of things where not exactly the same thing happens to every single person who confesses a certain way. And then even the transcript type stuff. I returned to byu. I wanted to return. I was almost done when this happened. I only had, I think, two semesters left, so I wanted to get my degree from Brigham Young. I returned to Brigham Young. I didn't fall into the problems that I see some of the LGBT folks falling into, where now you can't even get your transcript. I mean, that's not. Where's that sign? I didn't sign that. Or if I did, it wasn't explained to me correctly. We also have to understand that developmentally, BYU students tend to be somewhat immature from an adult perspective, that most of them are going there because their parents and culture expect them to go there. It's not like I had the intellectual capacity to really understand the contract I was signing. Somebody sat down with me and said, if you confess to these 15 things, you will have to leave the campus. Because then I'm pretty sure I would have waited to confess like everybody else. I had done that before. I could do it again. Right. But I just wanted to reach out and share this part of my life and get some ecclesiastical support and feel good about myself again. Now I'm dealing with my parents knowing things that I wasn't ready to share with them. Why are you getting kicked out of school? Right. I mean, it becomes a public thing. So even if they don't share the exact details, it forces conversations publicly with people that you may not want to share. They're really Nobody's business. We just have so many boundary issues. We have so many, like, adult development issues. We have so many weird issues that are not even doctrinal. It just drives me nuts. Yeah, sorry.

John Dehlin [01:20:39] Yeah. Patricia writes that the reason that church universities are so harsh with people, she thinks it's because, you know, people who break the rules hurt the image of the institution. So that's Patricia's theory. Colleen writes that these things are so damaging because they destroy relationships with ecclesiastical leaders. They become adversarial, shameful, and to be feared. Instead of cultivating a supportive relationship that helps bring you closer to God. Do you, Natasha, did it start at that early age to mess with your feelings about the church and leadership, having these interactions with priesthood leaders in the context that you had them?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:21:22] Yeah, I would say at the age I was very self deprecating. I really bought into the whole message that this is what I deserved, this is what I needed to do to get right with God and with myself and with potential future partner to be able to go to the temple. So at the time, although it was very painful and I cried many tears and I was obviously embarrassed and humiliated, I had to go talk to every teacher of mine to get, you know, the eye for incomplete on my grade. And I mean, it was just, it was awful. But it really wasn't until much later when I could really understand the depth of the damage. And I oftentimes make the parallel with sometimes we're not able to be angry for ourselves at the time. It's oftentimes when things happen to our kids that we can finally be angry for ourselves of what happened to us. And I think that that started happening to me as a therapist when my clients would come in with similar stories and I could see how it was damaging them. Then it was like, oh, wait a minute, this happened to me too, you know, and so that's the relationship. That's when I started to realize, hey, this isn't, this isn't healthy. This isn't right. This isn't working for people. This isn't helpful. Which is what I know the church would like to be helpful. I think intentionally speaking, the church has good intentions, but they're really causing much damage.

John Dehlin [01:22:50] Colin asked, you know, he asked, do you think the need to disclose your personal issues with your bishop contributed to secret behavior? You've kind of said that you kept things from your, your mom and your dad did. Do you look back and see any negative consequences to sort of the secretive behavior? And you think it was damaging?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:23:09] Well, I feel like for the most part, I just had to, you know, deal with those things by myself. I mean, the reasons why I didn't tell my parents aren't just Mormon reasons. I think most 16 year olds don't tell their parents a lot about their sexual lives. Right? We don't necessarily. I think my parents are great and I think in the spectrum of things, they actually gave me quite a bit of sexual education, but it wasn't like they were going to celebrate my 16 year old self having sex. Right. I was going to keep that from them. And so when we create a culture, whether it's Mormon or American or whatever, where you're gonna be in trouble for the behavior that you're doing, that of course is gonna lead to secrecy. And then so the damage there is that I didn't have my adult people able to be resources in my life at a time when I probably could have used some of that guidance.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] Right, yeah. Last, last sort of question about during this segment and then we'll start maybe segment two of the interview, if that's okay. Did any of this start affecting in those early years your testimony of the church at all or did you not really allow it to seep into your conviction and commitment and belief in the church?

Reflecting on Worth, Shame, and Young Women's Messages

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:24:25] Yeah, no, I would say my testimony and my doubts and questions that I would have would come much later. But at this point in my life developmentally, I was thinking still very much in that fitting in process. If there was a problem, it's because I wasn't the right type of Mormon. So any type of fear is because, well, I didn't grow up going to seminary. I didn't grow up with parents who were super active. I didn't grow up with kind of the typical Mormon upbringing. So if I was having some discomfort or concern, it's because I wasn't the right type of Mormon yet. And I had to really work that much harder to make sure I could get to the point where I was the right type of Mormon. And that was really prominent in my byu, you know, when I would go on dates and these guys would want to talk about deep Mormon doctrine and I'm like, what are you even talking about? I would really enjoy that now. But as a 17 year old, 18 year old, I was like, you guys are crazy. But then I would have that thought, you're crazy for wanting to go on a date to the temple and talk about Mormon doctrine. But I would have that thought for a minute like, you're crazy. And then it would go right back to, I'm not The right type of Mormon girl. I'm not the Mormon girl who can talk deep doctrine in front of the temple and find that edifying on a first date.

John Dehlin [01:25:42] Got it. So it took a while for some of those questions to emerge and for that sort of protective covering to wear down. I think Kerry gives us a great final question. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask one final question from Kerry, and I want you to direct this not just as she asks it, but also for any youth or even young adult or old adult who is religious and has violated their church's sexual code or any commandment or teaching of the church. So Carrie writes, how would you talk to your young self now if you could say something to her as she was suffering through these experiences? And, you know, she also says, how should a family member address, you know, personal standards versus church standards? But I'd like to go out of this segment on what would you say to your young adolescent Natasha self as she was suffering with the conflict of this beautiful experience and the guilt and shame she was feeling?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:26:55] Yeah, that's a great question. I think I would want to really drive in this point of there's a difference between our behavior and our worth. And we just really don't do a very good job about that. In Mormonism, I see actually our evangelical friends doing that a lot better than we do, where grace is much more a concept that is helpful. So that. And use my Mormonism right. If I'm talking to a Mormon girl, like, we're supposed to be here making mistakes and experimenting and trying out things, and you're gonna have some regrets along the way, and sometimes you're gonna act in ways that maybe you don't agree with. And what. That can be confusing and. But that never, ever, ever has anything to do with your worth as a human being and with your identity as a. As a person. Right. And I think that's where we really fail. The mark is in that messaging where somehow your behavior is now tied to whether or not you're deemed at a certain worthiness level. And that's really unfortunate. And just to piggyback a little bit on your original question, which is, do I think my sexual abuse and those experiences affected me? You know, I really struggle with that because I am. I tend to be a high libido partner. There's been times in my time in my life where I haven't been that, mainly due to pregnancy issues. But I tend to be passionate. I tend to be really, you know, I like food, I like sex, I like so did sexual abuse make me more, you know, like, what's the word? Promiscuous? I don't know. I think my personality is one where I'm an extrovert. And sometimes that's problematic and sometimes it isn't. So I try to be very careful about not, not conflating those two things too easily.

John Dehlin [01:28:51] Right. So let me, let me ask you a final. Let me ask you a final favor. Let's say you were talking to your own daughter or someone else's daughter or again, your young self, and they came to you and said, mom, I just had sex for the first time and it was wonderful, but I feel terribly guilty. I heard your message about, about not equating behavior with worth. But is there, could you model for us a sex positive response that you could offer to a teenage daughter or to young Natasha? What would you actually say to them? Mom, I just had sex?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:29:45] Well, first thing I would say is, oh, my gosh, like, thank you so much for telling me. Like, I am so amazed that you would trust me enough with this information. Like, that just blows my mind. And I can't tell you how honored I feel to have you comfortable enough with me to share something so personal. Right. And so private. And I hope that whatever we talk about here next, that you'll feel safe doing that with me ongoingly. So that's probably the first message I'd want to say. And then I'd want to explore the kind of the yes and approach. Right? So like, an experience can be a lot of different things. It can be exciting, it can be scary, it can be fun, it can be guilt ridden, it can be all these things. And so kind of. But I would really want to start with the pleasure if she had told me or he had told me, hey, this was really nice. I want to be like, how comfortable are you sharing with me? Why was it nice? I'm so glad that your first time having an experience like this was nice. A lot of people don't have a first nice experience. And so you're so lucky. Why was it nice? Can you tell me more about that in a way that you're comfortable without sharing weird details that maybe they're not comfortable sharing or if they do share weird details, to not freak out. Right? Well, we're all naturally uncomfortable with our kids sex lives, right? Just like they're naturally uncomfortable with ours. So just be really affirming of that. And then if there was that moment, you know, that statement of guilt, it's like, well, tell me why you're feeling guilty about that and what concerns you about it. And you know, I really am a big proponent of, you know, tearing apart principles to more complex situations. So it's very easy. And I give them the example, my kids example all the time, of the word of wisdom. You know, you can check off the box, you can not drink coffee and not drink tea and not drink alcohol and not smoke. And there you go, there's your box. And if that's how you want to live the word of wisdom, well, okay, but it could be a lot richer than that. So in other words, there's people who have a cup of coffee a day to help them get up in the morning and they run marathons for and they really watch what they eat. And I would say those people are healthier than how I'm currently living my life without coffee, for example. Right. Or something along those lines. So how do we complicate what we as a culture keeping rules and scores of versus what's the underlying principle? And so I would really talk about the six principles of sexual health. And did you follow those six principles? Okay, well, it sounds like you did if you had a good experience. Experience. And if they used a condom or something along those lines. But here's your religious value system and they're telling you that this is a sin. And so why might that be? What might be some of the concerns? What do you agree with or not agree with? How do you want to go from here? So just really complicating this is how you should think about it. Asking lots of questions, helping them formulate their own authority around some of these things.

Raising Sexually Healthy Children and the Six Principles

John Dehlin [01:33:05] Love it. And can you see a scenario where well educated kids around sexual matters come to their parents to talk about their first sexual experience and it's even a celebration? Is that stretching it?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:33:20] No, we see that in Europe quite a bit, actually. So Europe has had comprehensive sexual education for decades long. Well, we don't even have it yet. So we see actually parents in certain parts of Europe, I should say so the Scandinavian parts mostly welcome and invite sexual experiences for their kids to even have in their own home versus having it outside. So the idea that their child is going to be sexual is not a foreign one. And then how to talk about it and how to celebrate it and how to make sure that they're in healthy relationships versus abusive ones or coercive ones or things of that nature.

John Dehlin [01:34:01] Beautiful. All right, well, I think this ends part one of my interview with Natasha Helfer Parker. I want to thank everyone who's hanging in with us. We had almost close to 200 people listening at one time. People's schedules during the day wax and wane a little bit. But I want to thank everyone who's joined us so far. We've had a lot of great questions and comments. It says we've had over 3,000 views so far and 44,800 people reached. So this has been a great episode so far. Definitely one of the most powerful Mormons of Mormon Stories. Having you read that story, so powerful. So I want to thank you, Natasha, for part one of your story. Thank everyone for tuning in. Thanks, listeners. I want to thank listeners and thank everyone who supports Mormon Stories, Mormon Stories Podcast, Mormon Mental Health Podcast, and the Open Stories foundation because we couldn't do this without you. So if you've enjoyed this interview so far with Natasha, if you support what we do, please don't hesitate to go to Mormon Mental Health Podcast or Mormon Stories podcast, MormonStories.org and make a contribution. A monthly contribution can keep us alive and allow us to keep doing what we do. So, Natasha, I'm just going to stop and start this interview and then we'll keep going. Is that okay?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:35:17] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:35:18] All right. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights. When with the wounded heart, anger or

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:35:54] mouth,

John Dehlin [01:35:58] I draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Part Two Begins: Marriage, Disclosure, and Early Relationship

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 763

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:00:36] The kindly light a myth encircling gloom.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] Welcome back everyone to part two of my interview with the Amazing Powerful Healing Natasha Alfred Parker, Marriage and family therapist, licensed certified sex therapist and all around amazing person, longtime supporter of the Open Stories foundation, host of Mormon Mental health podcast and also Mormon Sex Info, which is a great podcast about how to get your sexy on. Is that what it's about?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:15] Basically, it's about anything to do with sexuality and Mormons. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] So check out Mormon Sex Info. It's great. And, and in episode one, for those of you who already have listened episode one, Natasha shared with us her experience when her parents joined the church's conference in Spain, what it was like being in the church as a young girl and then moving to the States. She talked about some early sexual experiences as a teen and young adult at byu, some not so great experiences with ecclesiastical leaders that culminated in her getting kicked out of byu and a lot of guilt and shame and not healthy messages along the way. So that's what part one was about. And we ended with sort of a more positive message on how maybe we could take a different approach to sexuality if we're a parent or if you had been sexually active and even if you're religious, maybe a more compassionate, healthy, constructive way to view one sexuality or to approach having been sexually active. So that was beautiful. So Natasha, let's continue with your story. You sort of come back begging for more punishment to some extent because you come back to BYU after getting kicked out. So how did that go? How did that go?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:02:38] Well, so the initial bishop that made the decision to have me kicked out ended up not being the bishop that worked with me to kind of get myself reinstated. And that bishop was just, just. I mean, if you think about the, the classic teddy bear type of, you know, metaphor or description, he was exactly like that. Again, similar to my first experience with my high school bishop. Just a very loving man, very appropriate. You know, I never had some of the experiences that I hear other people having, like what color underwear were you wearing, you know, or Anything creepy or inappropriate. It was just really more about reaching out to me ecclesiastically and helping me understand the atonement in ways that would edify me and loving me back to a place where I could reinstate myself and to bring them in.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] Were you disciplined? Was there disfellowship meant or formal discipline at all?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:03:38] Yeah, both times I was, I think, what you would call disfellowshipped, where I wasn't allowed to take the sacrament for a period of six to nine months.

John Dehlin [00:03:47] Months, right, months. You had to sit and pass that tray. Those trays as a adolescent or young adult for nine months?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:02] Yeah, well, it took about nine. Well, it took about two semesters for the second time. So that was about. Right. That was. It was almost the year.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] It's like a scarlet letter. That is a scarlet letter for a young Mormon person or old Mormon person, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:18] Yeah. At byu, where I'm supposed to get married. Right.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] Oh, my gosh. That's trauma. It's traumatic.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:28] The first time, I think in high school was somewhere like four to six months or something. And then. Yeah, so that was weird. Like if my parents were attending, I'd always try to kind of pretend or do something weird so they couldn't tell that I was.

John Dehlin [00:04:41] Yeah. Recently I talked to someone who. Who would palm. Palm the bread piece and like pour out the water as they were. As they were picking it up in the sacrament tray and then feign drinking the water.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:55] Right.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] As a way to hide that they weren't actually taking the sacrament.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:00] Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] So you claw your way back and you have a loving bishop and you're back at BYU and what happens from there?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:14] Yeah, I graduate, I move back home, I just start my life. Right. So I meet Andy, my husband, and we start dating. Seriously. I start researching what I'm going to do next. I had a psychology degree out of byu. You can't really do much with that, so I knew I wanted to. To work with people and do therapy work. So I started researching Wichita, Kansas, which is where he lived at the time. And we haven't lived here the whole time that we've been married. But the first three years of our marriage we were here and there was a small university that offered this marriage and family therapy degree. So I signed up for that, got married.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] What crazy thing got in your head that you should actually pursue a graduate degree and have a career as a Mormon woman? Like, that's. That's almost as crazy as having premarital sex. Natasha, what were you thinking? What were you Smoking. What the.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:06:11] Well, that I can definitely credit my less Mormon parents for. I think my mother was highly intellectual, went on to get her PhD later in her life. My dad was highly educated. So the idea that you were going to college was just a norm, right?

John Dehlin [00:06:31] Everybody was going college.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:06:32] Yeah, everybody was going to college. And in fact they were. I was a disappointment in my family because I didn't go to get my PhD. So the fact that I would just get my master's degree was a little bit less than optimal. And I am the only one in my family out of the four siblings that has less than, you know, a PhD type status. Degree. Professional degree.

John Dehlin [00:06:54] Sure. Okay.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:06:56] Yeah. So that was a given. And that was again, one of those things that I was able to shelve. So I think Andy comes from also a non traditional background in Mormonism. And he got married very late in life for a young man. So he was not the type that would say, oh yeah, I can just get married when I'm 22. He was like, how am I going to provide? He had zero support financially. He had a lot of support, lovingly. He comes from a great family, but they didn't have the resources to help him financially. And so he had to make it on his own. And he wasn't gonna marry some girl just because that's what the church said to do. So even though he was doing everything else, I guess this is selective Mormonism. Right. We all do it at some level. We all are cafeteria Mormons at some level in different areas of our lives. And we both felt very comfortable that, yeah, we're not going to have kids right away, we're going to finish my degree. And I knew that I would have to not only get my degree, but I would have to work full time for two years after getting my master's level degree, if I wanted to be licensed, which is the only way I was going to make any money. And so I didn't want to have babies while I had to work for two years. Right. Because I did listen to that advice that I should be a stay at home mom for the most part. And so. And I felt like my whole degree, an effect was part of why I chose to be a therapist was because of the flexibility it offered me to be a mother and to stay at home with my children. I mean, if you really want to know my dream, my dream was medical school. I was going to go to medical school and that's what two of my siblings did. And back in my more Mormon days, I tried to convince my Younger sister not to go to medical school because that would ruin her ability to be a stay at home mother. So those are the. That's the space I was in at the time, you know, So I became a therapist because I knew eventually after doing the initial grunt work, I would have more flexibility and be able to have children and stay at home with them. And that's what I did.

Choosing Marriage and Family Therapy as a Career

John Dehlin [00:08:57] Why marriage and family therapy and not social work or psychology, psychologist sort of stuff? What draw you to marriage and family therapy particularly? Was it just a program that was

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:09:07] available right at the time? It really happened to be one of the only programs available here in Wichita. There was a PhD program at Wichita State, but it had to do more with business consulting and psychology or something along those lines. And that didn't seem very interesting to me. I think I just kind of fell into it. I didn't really understand the differences at that point between social work and marriage.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] It wasn't like I had experienced sexual trauma or sexual abuse. And so I want to help people with those types of things or families. Okay, so something that. I don't know if I missed it or if you weren't explicit in your essay, please correct me. I wasn't sure whether prior to your marriage with Andy, you, I could say confessed or you know, let him know that you had been sexually active. I heard you say that some had encouraged maybe you to keep it to yourself. Are you comfortable sharing whether or not you disclosed that prior to.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:10:08] Yes, I did. I disclosed it right as we were when we were engaged already.

John Dehlin [00:10:13] And how was that conversation?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:10:15] Oh, it was awful. It was one of those things where I had decided the don't ask, don't tell type of philosophy was fine and he'd never asked. And I just assumed we were fine. And then all of a sudden he said something. Well, we long distance dated a lot because he was already working in Wichita and I was still in Utah. And I remember our conversation. He was like, oh my goodness, it's going to be amazing for both of us to have our first times together. You know, we were just kind of like, love talking, right? And through the ph and I paused too long and he was like, well, wait a minute, is this not your first time? And then I was like, do I lie? Do I like what do I do here? Nobody prepares you for these conversations when they say, oh, by the way, don't tell your future husband something that's pretty significant in your prior life. Right? So yeah, so we started talking about it and he was decide himself, you know, decide Himself just completely unprepared for that. You know, you think about the rhetoric that these young boys get. Be. Be a good missionary, do your duty. If you're the better missionary, you are the better wife. You're gonna have. You know, the. Just all these messages that he had bought into, just like I had bought into all of mine. And so to have damaged goods, and now, on top of it, he's. He's kind of stuck in a hard place because if he drops me at that point, he's a jerk. And if he doesn't drop me at that point, he has to deal with this super discomfortable, you know, uncomfortable realization that he also is not prepared for.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] And did he. You know, and we're not trying to pick on him. It's just trying to understand the experience. Did he say mean things? Did he say hurtful things? Did you feel shamed?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:12:09] Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:09] Was it awful?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:12:11] Well, he wasn't, like, a total dick. Like, call me a whore or something.

John Dehlin [00:12:16] That's good. Okay, got that.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:12:20] I think. No, I think he was a Mormon dick in the sense, and I love him to pieces. I have such a sadness for the young version of Andy in this whole story where he said the things that you would say that are appropriate, like, well, I'm gonna have to go to the temple and really pray about whether or not we should really get married.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] Oh, really?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:12:45] Right. So in the context, that's what you should do. But talk about, you know, knife through my heart, like, okay. And so I remember the day where he went and waiting for his phone call to see whether or not we were still gonna be engaged, see what answer he received. That's pretty devastating, you know? And then. And then the unspoken things, like when all of a sudden we are married and we're lying next to each other, and all of a sudden I feel his heart rate, like, increase dramatically, and I'm like, what? Is something wrong? Like, what's going on? Nothing. Nothing's wrong. And I knew. I knew what he was thinking about. So just all the.

John Dehlin [00:13:35] What did you. What do you think about? What was he thinking?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:13:38] Well, just. We've talked about it now where, you know, now he is having sex with me. And am I as good as her prior partners? Am I. Am I enough for her? Why. Why does she have sexual experience that I didn't get to have? You know, or, like, all of those just insecurities and things that we take for granted. I think in Mormonism, that we don't really encourage or prepare people to know how to deal with. You know, because you're having this expectation that you're both going to come to the table with the same experience.

John Dehlin [00:14:17] And what might be a healthy way for a newlywed to think about the fact that their partner has been sexually active? What might be a, you know, if. If Andy could talk to his former self, you know, what might he say to encourage him to say, wait a minute, you're looking at this wrong.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:14:39] She's choosing to fuck me now and I should enjoy that. I'm so sorry to be offensive.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] That was good.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:14:53] Like, I mean, I'm the guy she chose, right? So she's with me and she seems to be having a good time, so hooray.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] In other words, no big deal. This is awesome. You're lucky. Enjoy.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:06] I mean, we could all do that to each other. I mean, most of us have kissed other people. Do we sit around going, oh, I wonder what it was like to kiss this particular person? Or a. Most of most Mormons have done a little bit of something. You know, you do have the ones that will kiss for the first time across the altar and things. But that's not the typical Mormon experience. Most Mormons are making out at BYU and having fun at some level.

Sexual Experience Before Marriage and Its Relational Impact

John Dehlin [00:15:34] But also, again, with the sex positive aspect, could there be benefits to marrying someone with sexual experience versus not?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:43] So? Yes and no. I always have a little bit of a reaction to this because I think the assumption is, let's make sure there's chemistry, let's make sure we have sex before marriage, then our marriage is going to be fine sexually. And I see tons of people who are not Mormon who had sex prior to their marriage and now are coming in with sexual problems. Right. So just because you had good sex premaritally doesn't necessarily mean you're good to go. Some people, I think, especially in conservative cultures, report having wonderful sex lives and they never had a prior partner and they only had one partner. I think that I don't know if my sexual experiences prior to Andy made me a better lover or made me a better person. I think we would still have a pretty similar sex life to what we have now. Right. So I tend to think that we make too much of that. I think it can be good either way, and it can be problematic either way.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] What about the idea that if you don't at least establish some compatibility, you can get surprised on the wedding night to some major disparity or problems that then could really destroy a marriage that you could have averted by just having a few experiences prior?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:17:02] Well, I do believe the sexual chemistry is really important. So if you're coming from the type of background where, oh, you know, he or she. She fits all the boxes or he fits all the boxes, and we're holding hands and we're good friends, and now we're all of a sudden in a bedroom together, that can be problematic because you may not have assumed that sexual chemistry was possible or that somehow or that it was important or that it would develop as part of the marital contract. And it doesn't develop as part of part of the marital contract. So having some level of sexual chemistry with somebody you know, are you aroused when he kisses you or when she kisses you? Is there some level of butterflies or some type of spark that you would call sexual or chemical arousal or attraction? I think that is important to a successful sex life. And I do work with a lot of people who are great friends, and then when they realize that they married their friend and not their lover, that becomes a marital incompatibility for them. And there's not much that we can do in the sex therapy world to help create a fire out of nothing. Now, if there were sparks to begin with, there's a lot we can do. But to help you, I mean, just think about a friend that you have that you have zero sexual attraction for. You can co partner, you can co live, you can do finances, but are you really gonna get naked with that person and have sex in a way that is super hot?

John Dehlin [00:18:38] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:18:38] Probably not, right?

John Dehlin [00:18:40] Jeremiah checking in with our live audience on Facebook Live, Jeremiah writes, traumatized everybody. No. In response to you dropping the F bomb, Jeremiah wrote, yay with four exclamation points.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:18:52] Oh, my gosh. As there are probably four people who clicked the off button at that point.

John Dehlin [00:18:59] Anne writes, he should be glad that you were a wanted woman is what Ann writes in terms of your prior sexual experience. Jeremiah writes, again, he writes, hell yes. So he had to add a second comment. Christy writes, my mom advised me before marriage in the temple, quote, everyone fills each other up a bit before marriage.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:19:25] End quote.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] Love it.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:19:27] That's a good Mormon mom right there.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] That's what Christy says. And then Randy says, I'm nine years into my third marriage. This is an issue not just with young first marriages. This could be an issue with remarried couples after prior Mormon divorce.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:19:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] What do you think Randy's getting out there?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:19:48] Well, I think this idea that I don't know if he had premarital sexual experiences, that that didn't automatically mean that he's having great sex now just because he had Hot sex before, but he

John Dehlin [00:19:58] certainly would have had sexual partners prior to his second and third marriage.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:20:02] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [00:20:03] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:20:04] Yeah. That. That doesn't automatically mean you're a good lover or that you've learned much about yourself, you know, just because you've had sex.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Right, exactly. Exactly. Okay, cool. All right. So how did you and Andy, like, I guess there's, you know, probably multiple threads of your story. You know, what point did you and Andy start working through these problems? Was it immediately or did it take 10 years? Or should we circle back to that? Or did you guys resolve those things relatively quickly?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:20:35] No, I think for about five years we just continued to hurt each other in ways that we didn't intend to, but we just did. And then I think it was probably with the birth of Isabella that things just kind of changed for both of us. Now we are kind of committed at a whole nother level and we're having to co parent and. Not that that was easy. And cupcakes, because we fought a lot about gender roles and we fought a lot, you know, just kind of the. How we were going to manage that new type of relationship together, of co parenting together. But I think as far as the sexual piece, it really shifted something for him where he could see me in a different way or something happened for him and he started to really do repair work with me. So honoring that he had hurt me, honoring that he had had this type of response that he now felt was immature or, you know, and just trying to work through that. And we've had a lot of very deep conversations in the last, you know, 15 years around those types of topics.

John Dehlin [00:21:44] Yeah. And that was a beautiful part of your essay. For those of you who didn't tune into part one, go back and listen. Natasha Reed's an essay that was really heartfelt and touching and gripping, and it talks about how Andy did that hard work of repairing some of that. That shame and damage that had been caused. So. All right, so you become a marriage and family therapist. What? You know, so there's at least two major threads I know of. One is sort of your faith journey, and then the other is your journey to become a sex therapist. Is there anything else you want to tell about your story before we sort of start following those two threads?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:31] Well, I think that I'll just maybe just as we start those two stories, I just want to. It was interesting as I was preparing for this interview, as I started thinking about all the things I have had personal experience with, which is not to say that you can do good Work with somebody from a clinician standpoint and not have had any of that personal experience versus the types when you do. And there's again, pros and cons. But I just wanted to at least be clear about some of the things that I've experienced that we're not necessarily going to go into huge detail about, but just so people know. So I, you know, I mentioned that I have sexual abuse history and what I would consider sexual assault. I have been on both sides of infidelity in my main relationship. Somewhere in my main relationships, I'm not going to say with who or, you know, all of that, but I have had significant partners be unfaithful to me, and I have been unfaithful in a significant relationship. I've been on both sides of the pornography viewing issue where I've been extremely hurt and felt betrayed due to pornography viewing behavior. And I have been on the side where I enjoy erotica and pornographic images, sexually explicit material, whatever you want to call it, and having to deal with the conflation and the tension between those two things. I've been on both sides of the libido issue as far as being the higher libido partner in parts of my relationships and being the lower libido partner in parts of my relationships, and both suck. I have been. Well, when you think about don't yuck my yum and don't yum my yuck, do you know what I'm talking about?

John Dehlin [00:24:17] I do.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:24:18] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] Yeah. We talked about that in a Mormon transitions episode, antisexuality. But go ahead and give our listeners a quick explanation.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:24:27] Well, so that we all have sexual tastes or erotic desires or things that are fantasies that some people might find also arousing and some people might find even disturbing or gross or whatever. And so I've been on both of those sides. I think I have yucked somebody's yum and I think my yum has been yucked. Right. And so that's, that's hard. That's hard stuff to be honest and open about with your partners. I had extreme genital pain issues after pregnancies, like really, you know, much longer lasting than I had ever experienced or thought of or had been prepared for. So from the genital pain perspective, I've experienced that. So. And then the faith, you know, I have, I've been a believer, very traditional believer. I've been. I'm more now in a place where I'd call myself a nuanced believer or an abstract believer. I've had moments where I felt Like, I wasn't a believer at all. So, you know, I feel like I've kind of experienced a lot of those types of spaces that you get to navigate in life. I've had a miscarriage. I've had. Yeah. So I was going down the list, and I'm like, Geez, 45 years. I've been through a lot of crap and a lot of growing opportunities. But I guess the one area where I really don't have much personal experience at all is the LGBT area. Right. So I do consider myself straight, and I would consider myself maybe a 2 on the scale of the Kinsey scale. Right. So I'm not. If there's ever any arousal towards women, it's really mainly because maybe the partner I'm with finds that arousing. It's not my own arousal. Right. So I find it arousing because our culture kind of thinks two women together is arousing. So there's something arousing about that, but not in a way that significantly speaks to my own erotic template. So that would be the one area where I really don't have a lot of personal experience. I have a lot of experience working with LGBT folks, especially in our church, and have definitely consider myself a very strong ally and, you know, their rights to have a sexual, developmental, healthy life that the rest of us get to enjoy. So. So I just wanted to just throw out. That's kind of my sphere and what I have experience with and personally, since this is my personal story.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] And so I'm guessing that feeds into, you know, at a minimum, your desire to become a sex therapist in addition to a marriage family therapist. Is that true?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:27:04] I think my desire to become a sex therapist really did come from my experience blogging the Mormon Therapist.

Launching the Mormon Therapist Blog

John Dehlin [00:27:10] Okay, so talk about. What events or thoughts led to you breaking onto the scene around 2009 with the Mormon Therapist. How did that happen? How did you become the Mormon therapist?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:27:24] Well, so I moved at a time when online practice wasn't even a thing, so the Internet was still pretty new and found myself without my practice. Right. So this is kind of a typical Mormon woman story. I had developed practice in Wisconsin and was doing well, and then I follow my husband's career, and all of a sudden I'm without my practice and have nothing much to do professionally. So I started writing and I started this blog because we were starting to see some Internet possibilities of how to reach out to people more than just in your own community. And I had no idea what would happen with it, but I had a visiting teacher Actually, who helped me come up with the name? I was like, well, what should I call it? You know like something like Pebbles and unicorns, right? Or Healing Waters or

John Dehlin [00:28:16] Symmetry Solutions or something like that.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:28:19] Something like that, yeah. And she's like, call it what it is. It's the Mormon therapy. I was like, oh, that's so narcissistic. I'm not the only Mormon therapist. That's crazy. She's like, the Google is going to want to look for things and if you call yourself the Mormon Therapist, it will find you. I was like, okay. And it did.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] Okay, but why did you think of yourself instead of just thinking of yourself as a marriage and family therapist, why did you think of yourself as the Mormon therapist?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:28:49] Because quite frankly, my whole career has been with Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:28:52] I mean, how'd that happen?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:28:54] Well,

John Dehlin [00:28:56] you're in Milwaukee or Wisconsin or Wichita. How does that happen?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:29:02] That happens when you're a Mormon woman and when you don't work full time because you have four little kids of your own. And so when I started my career, I actually worked in Detroit at the substance abuse center for heroin addiction. That was two years full time work. I worked every day nine to six, see however many clients a day that they can fit you in to see. But then I got pregnant and then I started really kind of having more of a private practice. I was licensed at that point and so I would see contracted with LDS Family Services. I was able to use the church building as a part of that. So I didn't have a lot of overhead. And I would work a few evenings a week so that Andy could take care of the kids while I worked a few evenings a week. And it didn't interfere with my Mormon motherhooding, right? Motherhooding? Is that a word?

John Dehlin [00:29:52] Uh huh, it is. And for those who don't know, how does lds, how did LDS Family Services work at that point?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:30:00] Well, I think I was pretty lucky because since I was a contractor, I wasn't working in their main office, which was in Chicago at the time. I didn't have a lot of oversight. They just sent me a lot of the paperworks. I mean, I guess they wanted to know that I was a practicing Mormon and a believing Mormon. So I had my temple recommend. I'm assuming that came up at some point that they would trust me to contract with them. And I just used the church building and for the most part I would always explain that they did not have to sign it. But for the most part, especially if church funds were covering some of these things, they would normally sign a release of information for me to be able to talk with their bishops. And that's how it worked. And for the most part, I would talk with the bishops, but I would also. I think I had the ability even then to be quite cognizant of what I was sharing. And most of the time, it was something along the lines of, your tithing funds are being used wisely.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] Okay, so you started getting referrals from local leaders.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:31:07] Right. As soon as people find out that there's a Mormon therapist around and there's no other Mormon therapists, and even when you try to refer people who are in your own ward to other therapists and they don't want to go because there's such a distrust for non Mormon therapists, then, yeah, you start seeing Mormons. And that's pretty much what I did and what I've been doing ever since.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] Okay, so you had. But you graduated in what year from grad school?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:31:34] I graduated in 97.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] Okay, so you had a good 12 years doing therapy with Mormons or 10 or 12 years before you started the blog Mormon Therapist.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:31:46] Right.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] When you started the blog Mormon Therapist, what did your faith look like? What does your testimony look like as a Mormon?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:31:53] Well, it's always been, which. Well, up until maybe what I would consider a faith transition, but what it always was, which is, I'm a believer. I'm in, but I never quite fit in. I'm always the one with a little bit of a nuanced view. I'm always the one raising my hand in Sunday school. Right. I'm always the one that doesn't totally get it exactly how everybody else gets it. But I was a believer. And by that time, I was much more confident. I had the credentials of a mental health professional. So now I'm starting to shift. I'm not like, oh, I have a problem with this. It's my fault. It's more like, no, I have a problem with this. And there's good reason for me to have a problem with this. And there's no need for us to even believe this because it's not part of our doctrine. And by this time, I've done a ton of homework, right? Because I didn't go to seminary, so I better catch up. So I'm like, reading, and my husband's kind of a history buff anyway, and so I just know a lot about our Mormon history by this time. If you live in the Bible belt, you're kind of forced to know the Mormon history because people will use it as anti Mormon rhetoric. Right. They'll tell you all about polygamy. They'll tell you all about the problems, because they're trying to save you from your Mormonism. So I knew a lot by then, and I could confidently, in my Mormonism say, this isn't okay, and we don't need to be doing it this way, and this isn't doctrinal. And so I'm the one raising my hand, but I'm totally in.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] So you're gaining power and knowledge as a woman. That's a scary thing. Now, did you serve as Relief Society president before becoming the Mormon therapist?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:33:22] Yes. That was in Wisconsin.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] So you'd already served as a. As a Relief Society president. That's got to be validating. Even if you're feeling like you don't fit in, you're the chief woman of your ward.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:33:32] Well, that was actually very helpful in me realizing that we're all full of crap, because I was like, well, if I can be the Relief Society president, anybody can be the Relief Society president. You know, before you get a calling like that, you're kind of like putting everybody on a pedestal, right? And, oh, they must be the people who read their scriptures every day and do family, home, evening perfectly, and they must have all their I's dotted and their T's crossed, because they have that calling. And so when I was given that calling, I'm like, okay, well, yeah, I'm generally a good person, and I'm responsible, and I'll do this job, but by no means do I have all of that stuff crossed off. So it gave me a whole new perspective on leadership in general, like bishops. And it went all the way up where I could have a much more realistic kind of impression of what leadership in our church is, which is imperfect people trying to do good things.

John Dehlin [00:34:28] Perfect. Okay. And if I recall right, you were writing about masturbation right off the bat on your blog. Is that true, or do I. Do I have that wrong?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:34:39] I was writing about masturbation between married partners right off the bat. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] Yeah. So what. So what led to you starting so bold?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:34:50] Because the questions were bold.

John Dehlin [00:34:52] Okay.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:34:53] So you felt like I had to answer them. Like, if I'm.

John Dehlin [00:34:56] So you put out the Mormon therapist and people start asking you questions.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:34:59] Yes. I come from Italian heritage, John, and I have zero political astuteness, and I speak my mind, and it's not always the smartest thing for me to do. But I didn't know any better, so I just. Here's my answer. I didn't think about all the political ramifications of being open. I don't consider myself bold. I'm just answering a question.

Blogging About Sexuality and Church Pushback

John Dehlin [00:35:20] So was there a first time that you got significant traction or sort of an explosion for something you wrote? And when was that? What was that experience? Do you remember?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:35:31] Well, I was shocked that anything was happening at all on this blog. And it all happened very quickly. Immediately, I was having thousands of readers per day on this blog, and that happened within weeks. So I was shocked, and I was starting to get questions. And to this day, I have thousands of questions I've never even answered right because it just got to be overwhelming and too much. And originally because I wasn't saying anything that I would consider not supported by church policy or church doctrine. My ward and even my stake president at the time were extremely supportive of this project. And my Relief Society president at the time was a nurse and just thrilled that I was talking more realistically about issues and talking about things really from both this perspective of Mormon theology, but also with the many things that we value as Mormons, which is medical knowledge and science. And we do have that marriage in Mormonism. Sometimes we suck at using it, but we do have it.

John Dehlin [00:36:36] So as you're blogging and you're starting to get thousands of readers, were there any events that were notable in those early years that sort of went in a direction you thought was either bigger than you thought it would or in a different direction than you thought it would go?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:56] Well, the biggest thing that happened on my blog, where I understood that I was making a turn, is when I did my piece on masturbation in general for the. For those who are not married. And I knew that that would change my dynamics with everything, so it took me a while.

John Dehlin [00:37:15] What made you think that that would be a problem? And how did you overcome your fears to release that?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:37:26] Well, I knew it would be a problem because I was going to say something for the first time that people could say, that's not what the leaders are saying, which is that masturbation is not a sin in and of itself. That's not a behavior that I would deem sinful. And I think I had that position way back even when you interviewed me and I lied to you about it. You know what?

John Dehlin [00:37:49] This interview's over. You lied to me. We're done.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:37:52] I lied to you.

John Dehlin [00:37:53] We're through. No. What happened? Okay. I interviewed you. About what?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:37:57] Yeah, I was one of. I think it was our very first interview together, and you asked me, so what's your. You know, what's your position? On things like masturbation. And you were asking me about all kinds of stuff even back, even before I was a sex therapist, just because I was a therapist that talked about sexuality. Now we have therapists that don't even talk about sex. But I was always one that was comfortable talking about sexual issues. And I felt that my training as a marriage and family therapist did prepare me somewhat for that. I mean, we had one whole class on sexual development, so I felt somewhat like that was my credential at the time. And so we talked about it and at that point I remember saying something like, I haven't made up my mind about that yet. And I left it open.

John Dehlin [00:38:44] And you were scared, to be honest.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:38:46] Oh yeah. I didn't know you from Adam. I didn't know who was going to listen. And quite frankly, I was not at all ready to make a formal public stance on that topic. Nor did I see it maybe as my place. Like people have their rights to their own religious values, right? And I'm a therapist and I need to respect people where they're at as far as their own religious values. So, like, for example, I could see a couple that come in and tell me, well, the only reason to have sex is through procreation. And that's what our relationship tell, you know, that's what our religion tells us. And I wouldn't necessarily be saying, well, your religion is crazy. I'd have to work around that. I'd have to work around, well, what is okay and what, you know, figure that out. So I didn't see it necessarily as my position or my place to make that stance. However, as far as what changed my mind on that is that I did start seeing it as an ethical responsibility because having the expertise that I do as a clinician who's worked primarily with Mormons and seeing story after story after story where something as simple as masturbatory shame causes anything from self esteem issues, which is kind of on the lower side of, you know, harm to actual suicide. I just felt like it was an unethical decision on my part to not say something from a clinical perspective, having worked with this population for so long. So that's what forced me into kind of what I would call an advocacy role. So I'm no longer just a mental health professional, now I'm an advocate. And that's tough because as soon as I go public with that, well, guess who's not going to see me anymore, right? All the people who maybe I could have worked with around those issues because I'm now Taking a stance that goes against their religious beliefs and they no longer feel safe with me. So that was a very, very heart wrenching decision for me to make that.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] How far into your blogging years did you decide to come out with that position? Do you.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:41:03] I'm trying to think when I wrote that piece, but I'm guessing it was like four or five years ago now.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] Okay, so it was about half the

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:41:11] time that I've been doing the blog.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] Okay, so you did a good four or five years blogging before you took that position publicly.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:41:19] Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:19] Okay. And so what was the position you took? Just what did you say in the blog, if you had to summarize it

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:41:26] in an abstract, that masturbation is not a sin and that I see it, you know, and I painted it through a Mormon lens, which I still feel that way, that if we're given this capacity to self care in that particular way, when we know that medically we all need sexual release to help us with all kinds of things, so stress and pain and. But most of us are going to have some period of time in life where you're not going to be partnered in a marriage then what a wonderful way to be created by deity that we could in essence experience that benefit without having to rely on a partner. And for us to see that in the APA. I mean, I mentioned the APA's position, the American Pediatric association, that this is normative behavior. And the research backs us up, medicine backs us up. And we usually, as Mormons, have followed medicine's suggestions on every other aspect of our bodies. And we just kind of have this wrong as an incorrect tradition. But that in and of itself, it's not a problem. Now, I think I also couched, if you're lying to your spouse, well, then that's not masturbation's fault. That's lying's fault. You know, if you're doing it 500 times a day, well, that's not masturbation's fault. That's compulsivity's fault. Right. So the issues that people will say, oh, that masturbation causes this or this or that. Well, not necessarily. There's other things that cause those. And masturbation is kind of one of the things that you use, but in of itself, it's not a sin.

John Dehlin [00:42:56] Got it. So God gave us masturbation because women and men are. That they might have joy.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:02] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:43:02] We need a primary song. God gave me masturbation.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:05] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:43:06] Okay. All right. So you take that position on your Blog what happens?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:12] Well, fairly immediately. So even that same week, I have clients coming in saying, I'm not exactly sure why, but the bishop has told me that they will no longer be supporting payments of your therapy sessions.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] Oh, no.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:24] Right. Which I. Well, and you have to understand that, I mean, I sat on this blog post for about a week. I talked to Andy about it. We walked through all the scenarios, and the worst case scenario that would come from this was excommunication. In my mind, that was the worst

John Dehlin [00:43:39] case scenario because you were challenging the Brethren's authority.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:42] Right. So I.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] What statements did they made that masturbation was bad? I guess there's Boyd K. Packers little Factories speech. You know, Spence W. Kimball probably said, you'll become gay if you do it.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:43:56] Like, yeah. And even the Strength for Youth pamphlet,

John Dehlin [00:43:59] I mean, has, don't arouse your passion,

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:44:01] don't arouse your own body. So even though they're not using the masturbation word, which I actually would tell people, like, hey, this isn't necessarily in the manual. But then they'd come right back and say, well, but arousing your own passions is kind of another way to see that. And then I forget when. What's his name now I forget when. The guy at byu, Ricks. No, he's a general authority, not one of the apostles, but he did. We haven't heard anything around masturbation for about 25 years over the pulpit. It's just in our writings, at least that I'm aware of. Maybe in your local wards or stakes, but as far as the official pulpit, I've looked and I haven't seen a lot, particularly on masturbation, until this talk that this gentleman gave a few years back at BYU Idaho, and he called it self abuse. And I was like, oh, no, here we go. So. Because my thought about how usually church change goes is that they don't ever come out and say, oh, we made a mistake, sorry, this is the new thing going forward. They just kind of stop talking about something for a long period of time. And then all of a sudden the new generation doesn't even know it was a thing. That's kind of what I thought was happening with masturbation. And maybe I'm at fault because I started blogging about it and so they felt like they had to start talking about it again. I don't know. I hope not. I hope I'm not that important. But it did start being talked about again about three or four years ago.

John Dehlin [00:45:42] Okay. And so people started coming to you and saying that the bishop wouldn't pay for their sessions anymore. What else happened?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:45:52] Well, LDS Family Social Services, which the nearest one to us is in Kansas City, and they were thrilled that I was here in Wichita because they could refer everybody to me instead of having to drive down. It's a three hour drive and they can only do that once a month. And so people are seeing a therapist for one time a month. It's just not very adequate for services. So they were thrilled to refer to me and they stopped referring to me altogether and wouldn't even answer a few emails that I sent out saying, hey, I'm not hearing from you, or I need this new bishop's list or whatever to communicate with this bishop. And they just stopped answering me altogether.

John Dehlin [00:46:31] And do you have any sense how they found out?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:46:36] Well, I think locally people just were aware of my blog, like I said, you know, my stake president was very supportive of it. My people in my ward, I know read it. Nobody ever talked to me about it.

John Dehlin [00:46:50] You weren't called in. You weren't called in.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:46:51] Never called me in, even before this and said, hey, what's this new project you're doing? Or why are you calling yourself the Mormon therapist? Or like, there was nothing that happened officially, but I think people just, you know, in the hallways would tell me, oh yeah, I read your recent post, you know, or whatever, and they would give me feedback, or so people knew about it. But it wasn't like I was advertised. It wasn't like I was sending it out to my word list.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] Right. But word got around as soon as you made that post. Natasha's not on board with the Brethren,

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:47:20] basically, and to this day it's the most visited post on my blog and it has the most comments. If anybody wants to do a dissertation, by the way, on Mormon stuff, do it on my comments on that blog. It's fascinating.

Professional Consequences and Church Criticism

John Dehlin [00:47:35] Okay, so what was that like for you to all of a sudden have your client referral source dry up?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:47:43] Well, this was at a time when I had already started doing some online work. And so that's one of the things that Andy and I thought about because I figured that it might affect my work. And so maybe that's bad for me to consider that because you shouldn't make decisions based on your own financial, you know, renunification. But it was part of my life. I mean, we depend on my money. Right. And so I didn't necessarily want to make a decision that would drastically cut back on my. On my success or my practice, I guess, is what I mean.

John Dehlin [00:48:19] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:48:20] So it was at a time when I had already some online practice going and so I had some national and international clients. And again, my clients just kind of faded out over time. It's not like they completely stopped coming themselves. But I do know through a bishop friend of mine that I have been talked about in bishop state meetings that they actually have said things like do not refer to Natasha Parker. So I feel like that's a great breach of professional conduct between ecclesiastical people and myself.

John Dehlin [00:49:00] So it's one thing to stop referring, it's another thing to tell other people not to refer to you.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:49:07] Right. Well, I think that's as close as you can get to libel. Right. To professional libel. I've, I've done nothing clinically incorrect. I have my license. I have never had really a complaint or formal complaint against me. There's no reason why clinically I can't provide adequate services. But because of this one opinion that I have, they did dramatically affect my clientele here locally.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] Yeah. Okay. And I'll tell the listeners one kudo point to whomever posts a link to Natasha's masturbation post from the Mormon therapist. We've got about 90 people tuned in, so a special I'll buy them an ice cream cone, an extra ice cream

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:49:58] cone

John Dehlin [00:50:00] if they post Natasha's masturbation post to the, to the Facebook stream. So a couple comments, questions from our listeners. Jeremiah says, ooh, Natasha, you're going to get your own bubble.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:15] Oh yeah, but I've been around for a long time and I don't have my own bubble, so.

John Dehlin [00:50:19] Not yet.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:50:20] Yeah, not yet, I guess. But I'm a little, I'm a little bit more complicated because I still want a relationship with my religion. Right. So it's a little bit more complex probably as far as how to deal with me, I'm not making any. Have said some things that go against obviously current church policy, but in my mind I've never said anything non doctrinal.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] Right. So. And we'll talk about your faith journey in part three. Colleen gets the part three. There's going to be part three. Colleen. Colleen gets the award. She gets the ice cream. For being the first to post your link. The name of the article is my official stance on masturbation. Jeffrey gets the runner up prize, I think Jeffrey, last time I heard he was in Palo Alto. So Jeffrey, I'll give you half an ice cream cone next time we're together.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:51:13] And there's two of them. So the official stance is the first one and then somebody wrote immediately after that and so the blog post following that one is also around masturbation and goes more into depth.

John Dehlin [00:51:25] So, yeah, a second ice cream for whoever posts that second post. So Christy writes, me too. I'm still an orange tulip. And she says you'll understand what she's saying.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:51:38] Oh, I love my orange tulip person. I totally know what she's talking about. Awesome.

John Dehlin [00:51:43] Colleen wants to know if the ice cream includes a date with me and Natasha. Colleen, if you're in town with me and Natasha, yes, it's a date with

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:51:53] both of us, and I'll be there in July.

John Dehlin [00:51:56] Well, I don't know where Colleen is, so we'll have to find out where Colleen is.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:51:59] Yeah, I'm not sure. She's Idaho or Utah. I think I know who that is.

John Dehlin [00:52:02] But no monkey business, because I'm happily married and I'm staying that way. All right, let's see, what else? So Randy Brower says, when I scratch my head, the one attached it to my neck, he's being crude with that wire head massager. It makes my whole body tingle. Is that arousing my passion? There goes my membership. So he's my membership. And Joyce writes, it was Kim B. Clark at BYUI who made a crazy video about leaving comrades on the battlefield if you don't turn in your BYUI student friends for viewing porn and masturbating.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:52:41] Yeah, but this talk that I'm talking about was actually before that. And it was. I can't believe I can't remember his name because I wrote about him a lot, so. In fact, that's on my blog when I disagree with him. That was before that video that he spoke about self abuse.

John Dehlin [00:52:57] Got it. He must have been so positively reinforced, they made a video out of it

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:53:01] and they promoted him. He has a bigger job now in the church. I forget what role he has.

John Dehlin [00:53:07] Good for him. Colleen says she's in Arizona, so she'll be in Utah.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:53:11] Arizona.

John Dehlin [00:53:12] So me, you, and Colleen, next month. Colleen, it's your job to set that up. Okay, Melissa. Melissa writes, I was released as Stake Young Women President for becoming a sexologist. What effect has your practice had on your callings? Melissa wants to know. And we'll talk about your faith journey next. Next session. So, okay, so we'll talk about that then. So, Melissa, stay tuned for part three of Mormon Stories podcast interviews. Natasha Halford Parker. Let me see if there's anything else. Someone wants to know if you have a temple recommend that's also Colleen. We'll answer that in part three. Okay, so I think we're ready to sort of close this episode, part two, where you've talked about your journey, healing in your relationship with Andy after that shame of having premarital sex. We've talked about becoming a marriage and family therapist and then a sex therapist. And how your public disclosure on masturbation led to your being blacklisted amongst the saints in Wichita as a therapist and the LDS Church no longer being willing to refer clients to you. So, Natasha, thank you for part two of this interview. Thanks to all the listeners for joining us. We love it when people post comments and questions. Kudos to Jeffrey for posting Kim Clark's oh no. Tad Callister's presentation at byui.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:54:44] Tad Callister, thank you. Thank you, thank you. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:47] So, Jeffrey, you get a one and a half ice cream cones now. Jeffrey, next time you're in, I'm in Salt Lake City. So, Jeffrey, if you're ever in Salt Lake, I'm closer. And so that's awesome. And just thanks to everyone who listens. If you support this episode, if you appreciate what we do, please go to Mormon Mental Health podcast or Mormon Stories Podcast and make a donation. Monthly donation, 10, 20, 25, $100 a month can literally be what keeps us alive. And so we really appreciate the support. And for those of you who no longer pay tithing or even if you do, this can be a great way to support a worthy cause. So please make a donation and either help yourself or help others, because this work is helping literally tens of thousands of Mormons have less sexual shame, have healthier marriages, have less depression. And that's what supporting an interview like Natasha Alfred Parker will do for you. So, Natasha, the website is what? Symmetrysols.org is that it? What is it?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:56:01] Symmetrysoulss s o l s.com is symmetrysouls.com is a practice.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] The Mormon therapist is the blog. Jeffrey lives in Salt Lake City. So, Jeffrey, we need to do our ice cream soon. And thanks for joining us for part two of my interview with Natasha Parker. Join us now.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:56:18] And by the way, Glenn Wilcox, he found my other one. It's how can I go to the temple if I'm still master? So shout out to Glenn Wilcox.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] All right, we'll have more people going to the temple who masturbate after today. And so thanks for joining us. And please tune in for part three where we talk about Natasha's faith journey, where she stands now, which is an unorthodox view and even unorthodox for Mormon stories listeners and for post Mormons. So please stay tuned for that. And we'll talk about what happened in her faith journey, where she is with the church and where she is with her beliefs today. So thanks to everyone for joining us on Mormon Stories Podcast. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by by the Lower Lights. When with a wounded heart, anger or

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:57:35] malice

John Dehlin [00:57:38] I draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Part Three Begins: Natasha's Faith Transition

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 764

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] So welcome back everyone to part three of my interview with Natasha Helfer Parker, the Mormon Therapist and the Mormon Sex therapist. This is our third episode with Natasha, longtime dear friend, former board member of the Open Stories foundation, host of Mormon Mental Health Podcast, which you all need to donate to. We would love that. She's also the host of Mormon Sex Info Podcast, which is amazing. She is the executive director or CEO of Symmetry Solutions, which is a therapist sort of network where you can find a good therapist who's competent with One of my dear friends, Kimberly, who specializes in support coaching for trans individuals and probably lots of other things, is one of the many members of your network.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:01:40] Yes, I have wonderful people. So all meant to specialize on faith transitions and sexuality, so check out Symmetry

John Dehlin [00:01:48] Solutions for your needs if you need therapy. And so we're back for part three. Natasha, we've talked about your upbringing in the church, your sexual activity prior to marriage, getting kicked out of byu, the shame that you experienced getting married to Andy, why you became a marriage and family therapist and later a sex therapist, and how your open policy on masturbation being a gift from God. Again, we need a primary song called Masturbation as a Gift from God in Natasha's church, I guess we should say. And and how that position led to you being blacklisted by the LDS Church as not only as a source for referrals, but also as just a therapist that members were discouraged from referring. So Natasha, let's talk about your faith journey. When did all of this or other things start putting cracks in your orthodox beliefs?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:02:50] Well, and it's such an interesting story for me because it's so maybe, maybe not. But for me it feels atypical to what I normally see with all of my clients, which is that for me, I feel like my faith journey and transition really was through my clients. It was years and years of seeing people suffer in situations that I felt were unnecessary. So even from a very believing, more orthodox believing stance, I was having some of those concerns and that's continued to the point where then I had to start thinking about how it was affecting me and my perspective on truth claims or, you know, some of those things that we talk about kind of in classic Mormon story rhetoric right around what faith transitions look like. But I feel like I've been in faith transition really for Most of the 20 years I've been practicing. And very early on, you know, I had mixed orientation marriages that were coming for help. I had people who were experiencing faith transitions and how they were being dealt with with their spouses or their family members or ecclesiastical leaders. And even in my very believing days, I felt, this isn't right. We're not treating this correctly, we're not giving enough resources, we're not offering things, and people are using our doctrine incorrectly. So I probably had more of that stance that people just don't understand the gospel in the way that I do, you know, because I'm so smart. But I feel like there was real truth in that, that we were using gospel principles I felt in incorrect ways.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] Okay, so that started causing you to question a little bit.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:45] Yes. And I'm sorry that my dog is barking.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] No, no worries. That's part of life. Okay, so when did things start getting really, really significant or serious as it related to your. To your faith?

Deepening Doubts and Stepping Back From Church Participation

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:04:58] Well, and I don't know what significant or serious means. I mean, I would say that, you know, probably after my move here to Wichita, Kansas is when things started heating up. It's when I met you. It's when I started listening to some of your things. So even though we were very aware of some of the historical issues, hearing other people's perspectives was eye opening in that respect. And I started doing mostly faith transition work right from that point on. Do you want me to.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] No, it's fine. Keep going.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:05:33] I'm sorry. So, yeah, so Andy and I start talking a lot more and we're not always on the same page at all. Or things that bother me don't necessarily bother him. And the things that bother him aren't the things that necessarily bother me. So it just, it's a constant dialogue around some of these issues, but always from the perspective more of like, this is something that some of my clients are dealing with or this is something that I came across. It's never like, this is what I think. Right. It's more like, what do you think of this stuff that's happening around us? So it took a long time to be more personal, I guess is why. I mean that my journey is a little bit More atypical. Obviously, writing the blog post was a big shift because I knew I was going to be treated differently, even though at that point I considered myself still very. I mean, I was active member of the church. I was. I'm pretty sure I still had my temple recommend at that point when I wrote that blog. But I knew that writing that blog, I would have to shift some of my boundaries with the church. And so, for example, I never went in for a temple recommend interview after writing that blog piece because I didn't want to put myself in the position where somebody would have the authority to tell me that I was unworthy when I did not feel that I was unworthy.

John Dehlin [00:06:54] So you haven't, you haven't sought a temple recommend for five years?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:06:58] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] Okay, that's my.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:07:00] That was my own choosing. And that was very. It was very hard because I'm not one that necessarily had negative experiences in the temple. I definitely understand problematic issues with the temple, especially from gender role perspectives, but for the most part, my temple experiences were very positive and very much a part of my spiritual worship. So it was very difficult to put myself in that position where I just didn't. I knew. I knew pretty much if they had treated me professionally in the way that they had, that they weren't necessarily gonna turn around and give me a temple recommend. So I just didn't want to put myself in the position to have that happen.

John Dehlin [00:07:42] Right. Okay. But that's hard because it's not because you didn't believe.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:07:46] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] And so you're. You're sort of giving up one of the major benefits or rituals or ordinances or sources of spiritual strength or rites of passage or just basic activities that devout Mormons engage with. You're sort of five years ago, decided to give that up.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:08:05] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:08:06] What was that like?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:08:08] It wasn't, it wasn't good.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] I mean, some people don't like the temple, so for some people, it's actually.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:08:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:13] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:08:13] For me, it wasn't. For me. For me, it wasn't like that. I. I would still enjoy going to the temple today if. If I had that opportunity. So.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] Okay, so. So you. You stopped going in for temple recommend interviews. How else did it progress?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:08:31] And, you know, I. You just start noticing, I mean, I had created some boundaries anyway with my ward, which I understand is problematic. Like, I had told them even before any of this, like, look, I'm a therapist, and I know, like, I've tried to have all kinds of different boundaries with my, with my ward and my stake, and most of those Boundaries that I've tried to create fail in one way or another. Like I remember back in, when I very first started working with Mormons, I'd say, well, I'm not going to work with anybody in my ward. And then I would refer people out and they wouldn't go. So if they couldn't see, like I said, if they couldn't see a Mormon, they wouldn't go to see anybody. So then I felt queasy about that. Or somebody who I was seeing in the stake level now would move into my ward. So they weren't in my ward, but now they are in my ward. So do I just abandon them because they're now in my ward? Right. So I went to a lot of ethics conferences about small community type therapists and how they manage. So if you live in a town where there's only like 5,000 people, how do you, you know, you're at PTA meetings and you're at, you know, you're interacting with people in your community who also know you as the therapist. And so I went to a lot of those types of ethics type conferences to understand some of these dynamics that we need to be mindful of as therapists when we're dealing with confidentiality issues. So I decided when I moved here to Wichita that I would create some boundaries, even as a completely believing active Mormon that I had never created before, which was I would not accept a calling where I was in a presidency and I would not. So in other words, I would only accept teaching type callings because I feel like that's part of what I can do professionally. I can teach, I can give firesides. I've done that my whole. I can't tell you how many free seminars I've given to the church on marriage and family therapy through firesides or youth events or whatever. And I love doing that, but that's a teaching. So I feel like I can be a teacher. You can show up if you're my client. And that's, you know, you're interacting with me differently than we're sitting at a presidency meeting. That's a problem. And I don't ever want to be in a position where I say something like, oh, well, I would love to be the second counselor, but your first counselor is one of my clients, so I have to decline. I never wanted to be in that position. So I just told the bishop, look, I just can't take callings where I'm in a presidency and I can't be a visiting teacher because I don't ever want there to be this conversation. Well, that person can't be my visiting teachee, you know, or. Because they're gonna know. Just even if I don't say they're my client, they're gonna know that there's some reason there why that person. So we set up this thing where one of my friends from out of state is my official visiting teacher, and I just don't visit teach. And that's just kind of how we set it up at that time. So I had some of these weird boundaries anyway, that I could tell made people uncomfortable, especially my bishop. You know, I remember him saying, people who don't visit teach, that's a slippery slope. You're asking to not do this, and the next time you're gonna ask not to do that. And so, you know, I think he was concerned about me or my boundaries or whatever. So. And I. And I understand that it's not part of our cultural makeup to know how to have these boundaries, but then I just noticed. So they put me in his Relief Society teacher. And I forget if this was after or before my masturbation post, but they wanted me to give a lesson on Bednar's talk, and it was all about pornography. And I was usually the teacher who would teach on the fourth Sunday. So it was kind of like, perfect for me to be this teacher. Plus, I was the mental health person, so they thought that would be great. Well, by this time, I'm deep into my sex therapy training. I pretty much understand that everything Bednar's talking about in regards to pornography is a disaster and that we have lots of cultural issues around this whole topic to begin with. So I decide to take the three sentences that I could find in Bednar's talk that I agree with and focus the lesson on those three sentences and on sex positivity within Mormonism and really talk about that and not have it be so much about pornography. And I can guarantee you that I said nothing in this lesson that would go against church doctrine. But we were talking about sex and sexuality in a way that we're not used to talking about in Relief Society. And I did mention the word clitoris, so that was probably a bit much

John Dehlin [00:13:07] in your Relief Society lesson.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:13:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:11] Wow.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:13:11] Well, I was trying to say this idea that isn't it beautiful that women. We were created with a part of our bodies that was meant only for sensation, that it's only purpose, you know, sensation. And hopefully, for the most part, that's supposed to be for pleasure. You know, if you think about heavenly Mother and Heavenly Father, Creating us. And this idea that Heavenly Mother is created like us and so that we can. I mean, this is kind of sex therapy work I do with a lot of Mormons is helping us have healthier relationships with our own genitalia, which even outside of Mormonism, we're very harsh on genitalia. Right. It's dirty, stinky, awful. Yuck. I mean, we. We just don't do a good job of honoring genitalia and our overall culture. And here we have this beautiful principle in Mormonism where our bodies are a gift and we're created to be like deity and so deity. Not that we ever talk about Heavenly Father having a penis or Heavenly Mother having a vulva, but that's implied that they have the same body parts that we have. And isn't that beautiful? So I went into that just a tad and I mentioned the word clitoris. And you know, the back room, back part of the room, which tends to be the younger women, were smiling and nodding, and there were certain people that were not smiling and nodding. And that was the last time they let me teach Relief Society. So. And I asked, you know, I asked because it was one of the counselors who came and told me that they would no longer need me in this calling. And so I asked, well, does this have to do with my last lesson? And he said, yes. And I said, well, I would really appreciate it if you wouldn't release me. You would let me teach one more time. Just let me teach one more time so that it's not obvious to everybody that I basically got fired for teaching a sex positive lesson in my wardrobe, and they declined that. So they did not allow me to teach again. So for me, that was very sad because I really was very careful to not say anything non doctrinal, and I felt it was really tapping into some of the sexual positive messages that we have within Mormonism that could be so helpful to so many marriages. And they just shut it down. Now, granted, you know, I'm in the Bible Belt, I'm in a conservative area anyway. I'm not saying that this would have been my experience in every Mormon ward. I think my particular ward has a certain personality, like all wards do, you know, they all have their own personalities. And this wouldn't have necessarily happened.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] The Midwest, Kansas, Iowa, Indiana can be really harsh, you know.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:47] Oh, yeah, yeah. There's a whole nother level of sexual shaming that's going on in these areas, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Yeah, maybe sometimes we think Utah is the most conservative place, but sometimes it's not.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:15:59] No, there's much worse.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So around what year were you released as teacher?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:16:08] So I'm guessing this was about three and a half years ago.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Okay. So 2013, 2014.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:16:15] Yeah, it was probably about six months or so before what we'll go into, probably our story with Isabella. But. So at that point, they offered me a job in the primary, I think, and I just. I needed space because I was very angry and upset, and so I just declined that. I said, I. I think I'm just gonna need some space to recover from this, and I just will not have a calling for a little bit. So give me a few weeks or months and we can talk about it again. As far as what calling I can do.

John Dehlin [00:16:45] Okay.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:16:46] Because I was extremely upset. I may seem very put together in these types of sessions, but I do sometimes feel sorry for my leaders that have to deal with my wrath and my not so great political comments. So in that sense, they've been very patient with me. And I do want to say, too, that even though, like, you, you know, I think you mentioned the words blacklisted, like, they don't refer to me anymore. One of the things that's been very, very wonderful about where I'm at is that nobody has disciplined me. Nobody has called me in to this day and asked to have a session with me or threaten my membership or, you know. So in that way, they've been. They've been. There's been issues where I feel like I've been professionally disrespected, and there's been ways that I feel like I've been very professionally respected. So I want to give credence to both of those sites.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] Absolutely. Okay. So I'm guessing the story with Isabella might be next, Is that right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:17:49] Yeah. So then we're plugging along, and, you know, this is the stage where I'm probably coming home every Sunday ticked off about somebody. Somebody said something. Why did the guy who only spoke about Satan and did a whole poem about Satan, and he didn't get fired from his job, but my clitoris lesson fired me. So Andy's having to hear me constantly being upset about Sunday lessons and things that are being talked about that I don't agree with. And I think, too, that there was a time in all of this where I probably was what I would deem clinically depressed. I mean, I think that there was probably four or five years here in Wichita where this whole process of trying to be a change within our church and trying to be helpful and trying to reach out and Then being rejected over and over and over again by my own people was very, very taxing. And then Wichita in general is just not my cup of tea as far as it's a conservative area, it's Republican. So, you know, all these ways that I just didn't really fit either in my church or my community really left me kind of in a low spot of my life for probably about four or five years. In fact, I may still be climbing out of that. Who knows?

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Oh, so for a lot of people, they stay in the church to try and change it from within for you. Sounds like that was a little bit toxic or draining.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:19:18] Yeah, I think it was. I mean, on the one hand, when you have clients who tell you, oh, my goodness, this is so useful, and this perspective is so great, and it feeds you, and it makes you feel like, wow, this is. I am making a difference. And then there's other times where you feel like you're making no headway. In fact, you're. You're getting pushed even further back. And. And I didn't want to leave my religion. I mean, I'm a Mormon. I'm not looking at it from, oh, this is toxic for my mental health, so I will leave. No, I'm a Mormon, and Mormons push carts through countries, and you don't get an out just because it's hard or because it's damaging to your mental health.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] What does that have to do with being Mormon?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:20:10] If you die on the plains, that's just part of the story. So, yeah, so that wasn't even how I was thinking about it. I wasn't even thinking about it from the perspective. But Andy was. Andy, who tends to be a little bit more traditional in his Mormonism than I do. He started saying things like, if church is making you so miserable, maybe you should take a break from church, you know, or you just seem angry a lot of the time, or it's seeping into other areas of your life. You know, kind of a lot of the complaints that you hear people's spouses having when somebody's going through a faith transition. Right. All you do is you only interact with Internet people. What local friends do you have? You know, he was giving me that feedback, and I was fairly resistant to that feedback. I didn't want to hear it, you know, because I'm so smart.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] And you love Mormonism.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:21:11] Yeah, and I love Mormonism. And I did feel like some of the things that I was working on were positive. I like having my blog. I like doing the podcasts. I love my Relationships with many of the people that I've met through this whole world. Right. Like you and so many other Mormon therapists. And just in some ways it's very, very edifying. And you feel like, wow, we are making a difference. And then other times it just is engulfing and despair. It's a roller coaster ride for sure.

LGBTQ Issues and Ordain Women as Turning Points

John Dehlin [00:21:44] So what changed things for you?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:21:48] Well, so we're in the middle of having these types of conversations. I didn't do any of those things. I didn't take a break. But now our daughter, who is, oh, 14 at the time, she has an

John Dehlin [00:22:01] experience during the ordained women thing. Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:04] Did I?

John Dehlin [00:22:05] Was it wasn't it kind of during the ordained women sort of uproar.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:09] Right. So I. And I filled out a profile and as usual with all of my kids, I tell them about all kinds of things that are happening. And so Isabella was interested in doing

John Dehlin [00:22:21] a profile, an ordained women profile on their website where people wrote a little snippet to show their support for female ordination. So you wrote one?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] And published it. That's a big deal. Because back then, early on, that could get you in a bishop's office just for doing that.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:22:39] Yep. And we wore pants to Sunday on the pants day. And my sons out of, you know, I sat down with them and explained the whole purple thing. And if anybody wanted to do that, they could. And if they didn't want to do that, they didn't have to. And they wore their purple ties. And so it was kind of a family event to, you know, participate. I don't know that anybody in my ward even knew what we were doing, but we just showed up in our pants and in our purple. And so we were part of that movement. And yeah, with a lot of anxiety, you know, all the time. It's like I'm constantly pushing these boundaries in my ward and, and I know it. I know that they're probably sick of me or thinking I'm contentious or constantly bringing up problems. And on the other hand, I want to be, you know, I want to stand by the things that I believe in and, you know, warm in my way, do what's right, you know, at the consequence follow.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] Right.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:23:43] So. So we did all those things and, you know, and Isabella, I remember distinctly, ah, it's amazing how these things hurt still so much.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] But.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:23:59] I remember one time when she was at Beehive, she looked over at me and she's like, why does you know this young girl? I mean, we're in a small ward, right. There's probably 20, you know, maybe 15 young women in the whole program. And so there's like, May. And at the time, there were two beehives. Two beehives. And my daughter was one of them. And so she looks over at me at sacrament meeting, because this other girl had just gone up and been made the beehive president. And she looks at me and she's like, why, mom, do you think that I don't ever get a calling? You know, why am I never. And she hadn't her whole beehive experience. She never received a calling. So she wasn't the secretary. She wasn't the first counselor. I mean, there was two of them, and there was a president, and then there was Isabella. And she asks me, well, why do you think that I don't have a calling? And so I look down on her, and I'm like, I don't know, honey. You know, it's a good question. And she says back very clearly, and she says, I think it's because you're my mom. And I just said, I think you're right. I think that is why I think that, you know, I take certain positions and I say certain things at church that make people uncomfortable, and it's unfair. But then all of you are part of my family, and we're all treated a little bit differently, you know, and again, not that anybody was ever super rude to us or inappropriate, but just a general sense that we don't fit. And Andy and I have talked about that for a long time, and we have always felt like, you know what? It's okay for kids to be part of communities where they don't fit. Things don't have to be perfect, and it helps them deal with conflict. And so we don't need it to be perfect in our Mormon ward to be a part of it. Just kind of like extended families or whatever. You know, there's just issues. So we were never completely turned off by that or feeling like we needed to protect our children from a more conservative ward than what we've lived in in the past. But I didn't expect us to be living here throughout the majority of my child's upbringing either. So this has completely shifted our ability to raise our kids in a Mormon way that I felt our. I wanted to. Right? So there's a lot of power that was taken away from me in that regard. 14 comes along. Isabella's made the Miami president. So this is huge. Huge for her. Like, not only did she finally get a calling, but she's the president of the Miami, and you couldn't see a girl more excited, More excited to serve. And I mean, I never had to be the mom, you know, to say, oh, have you made your phone calls or have you remember sister so and so had this task that you needed to do. She was on top of it. She was calling the inactive girl. She was trying to figure out activities everybody would feel comfortable at. She was just gung ho. And on top of it, she had worn pants to the Sunday meeting where she was set apart. And so she just came home thrilled, you know, like, I'm finally being supported. And even wearing pants, they're comfortable setting me apart as the Miami president. Like, there's hope. There's hope for this church of mine that maybe I haven't felt like I totally fit into. Right. Is where my daughter's coming from. And I feel hopeful, too. I'm like, this is amazing. The young women's leader at that point was wonderful, wonderful woman who I could tell also was just a little nuanced in her perspectives and very open to my daughter and just really, my daughter loved her very much. So just a wonderful person to have elevated my daughter in this way. And then it must have caught wind that Isabella had written this ordained women thing. Plus, Isabella had always been part of the Straight Gay alliance club at school, like, you know, listening to me and some of her own sexual spectrum type things that she was thinking about at the time. And so that's an organization that she always was a part of. And so she gets called into the bishop's office about, I'm guessing about two or three months after she was called as president, and unbeknownst to Andy and I, who had asked for our children not to be called into an office without us being there. So she was called in there. And I had always told my kids, look, up until you're 16, I want to be in the office if the bishop or anybody else is going to talk to you, mainly because of all the sex questions I feel is none of their business and they shouldn't even be asking. But then after 16, we'll talk about it. I hadn't had to deal with that yet, but I said, but if you ever want to go talk to the bishop on your own volition, I'm never going to stop you from doing that. So I just wanted to put a safety guard there. Not that I think my husband's a pedophile or anything, but if my kids need to go talk to an adult without me and Andy being present for whatever reason, they should have a place to do that, but not the other way around, where an adult gets access to my kids just because that's the tradition of the times, and ask them inappropriate questions that I don't agree with. So that's kind of how we had navigated that up until that point. So I walk into this office because the bishop does finally come and get us. My daughter's in tears, and I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, like, something happened here where she felt she had to go talk to the bishop and couldn't talk to her parents. And now we're going to hear some dramatic thing that's been happening in her life that I've been unaware of. That's really what I thought going into that meeting. But really quickly, we start understanding that he is concerned about her involvement in GSA and her involvement with ordained women. And the stake president happened to be there.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] GSA is the Gay Straight Alliance.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:30:41] Gay Straight alliance, right. And the stake president was there. He kind of, I think, understood that something was going down. So he was part. He came into the meeting as well. And so the bishop basically asked her two questions. He said, do you believe. And this was after some of the comments from the ridiculous comments that were coming from church headquarters around some of these things, because there were several people being disciplined for all these kinds of different reasons at the time. But he said, do you believe that gay people, homosexual people, should have the right to get married? And she said, yes. And he said, and do you believe that women should have access to the priesthood? And she said, yes. And then he said, well, those two beliefs disqualify you from being the Miami president, and we will now have to release you from your calling. And the stake president backed him up on that on those two things. Now, we had had about an hour's worth before then of discussion of all kinds of things, you know, like doctrinal changes in the church and how things aren't always, you know, there's a difference between believing that somebody should have a civil right versus believing that it's a value of God or, you know, all those kinds of arguments went nowhere. And of course, you know, I had a royal fit. I did my whole thing where I just was very, very angry with both of my leaders and asked some very difficult questions to them about how they were conducting their business, including, why does my bishop not know about the essay of the blacks in the priesthood? So it was a question I asked my stake president and whether or not he was training his bishops correctly. So it was that tone that I took, which was not very friendly, obviously, but my child was under attack, so I have no apologies for that. And I turned to my daughter. My one good thing about that whole meeting was I turned to my daughter and I just said, you know, you've done a very Mormon thing here today, which is stand up for your beliefs in a setting that is inappropriate. And there's a power differential there that was unfair for you to experience for an hour alone. And then I think my husband was quiet most of the time, which is unlike him, but he said something along the lines of, you've made a very deep mistake with our daughter here today. And we left. And then we're in a position where we have to decide as parents. This is more than just an uncomfortable place to be in. This is a place where our daughter is not going to be allowed to be a leader, where our daughter's not going to be allowed to develop her own critical thinking, you know, where she's not going to be allowed to see her relationship with deity if she chooses to have or believe in deity in a way that would be healthy and uplifting to her, where she's going to be seen as wrong and incorrect and broken and, you know, all those things

John Dehlin [00:33:44] a little bit like you were as a teen after having sex.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:33:48] Oh, yeah, for sure. So at that point, we decided to stop attending the LDS church. And it just blows my mind that this is. And we would have never stopped attending.

John Dehlin [00:34:03] Andy was still an orthodox believer, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:34:06] I would say definitely more orthodox than me, but not necessarily literal. Completely. Yeah. Even at the time, I mean, he had a very working understanding of church history and still committed to the church. But still very committed to the church. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] And you were, too. And you were too.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:34:24] Yeah, we were active members of the church, going every week.

John Dehlin [00:34:29] And so if somebody said, oh, well, they were just offended and so they walked away, what would you say?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:34:34] Well, I would say that it was much more. I mean, we've been offended for years. My spirit and my clients have been offended for decades. Right. But it really came to this parenting decision of, am I going to take my child, who was already questioning Christianity, who was already questioning Mormonism, to a place where if there was any desire for her to have a relationship with God, where that relationship, I felt, would be damaged? Or are we going to take her to other places and show her other forms of Christianity or other forms of spirituality, where if she does want a relationship with deity, she can develop that in a much healthier way? And that was our decision. Now, four years later, she's about to go off to college. And we have a 14 year old son who is very has remained active in the scouting program and we've completely supported that and has some friends who are Mormon and invite him to church on a regular basis. And so we are now preparing to go back into activity at some level to support our 14 year old son who is having a very different relationship with Mormonism and who wants to explore that and wants to understand if that's a possibility for him. So that's where we're currently at. So I feel like Andy and I are not getting to have our own faith journey, we're just having our faith journey from the perspective of our kiddos and things of that nature.

Current Relationship With Mormonism and What Remains

John Dehlin [00:36:11] So how do you feel about going back to church? Natasha Helfer, Parker well, there's parts of

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:17] that that I dread, you know, as far as the looks and the tensions and the anxieties of that. And there's parts of me that miss Mormon church and there's parts of me that hate aspects of Mormon church. I'm sure it's going to be a wonderful mixture of all kinds of stuff that I'll be feeling.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] And as part of your ability to do that, Isabelle's going away to college and so you won't be splitting up the family and you can go.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:36:43] Right. And it just kind of happened to coincide. If our 14 year old had expressed this interest earlier, I think we would have figured something out where we could honor both of them. But up until this point, everybody's been happy going to other churches that we've been visiting here in the area. And it's been actually a pretty nice family experience to visit other denominations and talk about things in different ways.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] So you're feeling mixed about going back to church?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:37:11] Oh, for sure, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] What? What? You know, some hate this question, but I ask it, I know that you don't support the church's views on sexuality, on being LGBT on, you know, the November 15, you know, the November 2015 policy, its stance on women and authority and all that stuff. Do you, you know, how do you feel about allowing your son to be a part of that and then also now attending again and giving your reputation and maybe even time to an organization that represents things that you seem to fundamentally oppose. How do you do that?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:37:52] Well, so the thing that comes to mind in answering that question is how am I a part of my extended family? So there are people in my extended family that are a disaster and who've hurt me tremendously. There's parts of my extended family that are amazing. And even my own parents, for example, when I think about the ways that they probably harmed us and the many, many ways that they supported us and loved us and just for me, Systems has never been an all or nothing thing. There's potential for harm, there's potential for good. At some point sometimes the harm is so great that it is toxic and you have to be more clear with boundaries and even have cutoffs. So I get that. And some people may very well feel that way about the church. And I think for very good reasons. For example, if one of my children were LGBT right now, I would not be considering even if they wanted to go back or I would have to figure out some way to honor that. But be very, very cautious to have resources in place. I think even with my son, it's interesting. He came to us a few weeks ago asking to go to youth conference and so I just kind of have to laugh at my response. It's like, well, you can go to youth conference, but if you come back all guilt ridden about stuff that I don't feel you should be guilty about, we're going to have to have a serious conversation. Like, I felt like I was kind of giving the type of talk you'd give to a kid who wants to go to their first rave party or something. I'm like 70% of the stuff you'll hear there is probably fine, but 30% of it is crap. You're not going to be one of our kids and fall prey to these kinds of dynamics. We've been very open with our kids about what we feel our issues are with the church. That doesn't mean that they couldn't go and reject us. I understand that there's that risk, you know, that my son could get involved and look up to a young man's leader and maybe consider me and his father less than because we're not the typical Mormon parents. So I understand that there's that risk involved. And at the same time, I believe strongly in honoring my kids journeys too and helping them develop in ways that they seek out. And there are worse things, like you say, often there are worse things than kid who's an active Mormon. But it was interesting to hear my husband say to our son, you know, my main issue would be that if you somehow respect us less as your parents because we don't fit the mold, like that would be very hurtful to me as your dad. And maybe that's partly because he felt that way about his dad. I don't know, you know, so we understand These are complex issues.

John Dehlin [00:40:44] Yeah. Yeah. And I just. I'm a bit taken back by how much the church has hurt you in some ways. And yet you're still willing to give it another chance and assessing that as a parent, you feel comfortable allowing your son to re. Engage even though you know he could be hurt too.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:41:14] Mm. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:17] How do you think through that, knowing that he could end up like Isabella if he says or believes the wrong thing? How do you let that happen? And I don't. I'm not.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:41:29] Yeah. No. I think it's the same reason why I don't homeschool. Not that there's anything wrong with homeschooling, but a lot of times, the. For a lot of people, I think the motivation to homeschool is a protective one. And I don't feel like my role is necessarily to protect them from negative experiences or people or. To a point. Right, to a point. And that they're gonna have to learn how to manage those things. So I need to educate them. I need to give them my opinions. But at 14, 15, 16, 17, those are formative years where they need to start making some of their own decisions, and we can support that. Whether it's I want to be an atheist or whether it's I want to have sex or whether it's I want to go back to Mormon Church. And I think those are things I want to honor for my kiddos.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] Right. So you're. You're letting him have his journey, and, you know, that there may be trouble, but I'm imagining, you know, that there could be trouble any path he takes. And so, like you said, even though maybe it wouldn't be your ideal path for him, there are worse things than having your kid be active and Mormon.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:42:44] Yeah, I think so. Plus, just like in therapy, I mean, most of these podcasts, we talk about the negative stuff, we talk about the pain, we talk about the hurt. But I could probably do a whole podcast on how the church has helped me, you know, and the role that it played in my family's life, especially as we were somewhat of a gypsy family moving from place to place, and that it always had extended. It is like my extended family. You know, Mormonism is like my extended family. We really didn't have extended family. My mother's an only child. My father and, you know, all my family from her side is a thousand or more miles away in Argentina. And then my father's family, he comes. He only has one brother. We don't have very much contact with them. So for me, family life was Mormonism. And just like families hurt you, they also love you. I mean, some of my most warm and spiritual moments are in Mormonism. I mean, I have been lifted by so many people who've cared for me and loved me and befriended me and served me and my kids. So I think sometimes it's unfair when we only focus on the negative. Right. And I feel this way even with my clients. Like a lot of times I'll be asking questions and they'll tell me something pretty awful that happened in their family. But then they're quick to tell me. But that doesn't mean that they're awful. They want me to know that just because my dad spanked me too hard, he was also really good in this way. And I get that, I get that you don't want to paint this picture that it was all awful, even though there were awful things that happened. And how do we validate both sides of that coin? So I feel like that's been my relationship with Mormonism is that it's my family. And with family comes great joy and with family comes great pain.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] So what aspects of Mormonism? Well, first of all, let me check in with listeners. So listeners have said a lot of things. Jeffrey writes, it's worth noting that we are 4.5 years after ordained women that. No, sorry. He said 4.5 years after wear pants to church day, the LDS Church just authorized female employees to be able to wear pants. So that's a news breaking story that in 2017, the LDS Church in June, around 27 June, is now allowing their women to wear their women employees to wear pants. So that's Jeffrey's comment. Jill says, natasha, you save lives. Steve writes, I'm always shocked to see how the LDS Church continues to drive away such incredible members. So he's talking about your and Andy's decision to step away from the church. Steve also writes, I hope your son has a better experience. Let's see. William writes, you're looking great, John. Thank you, William. That's good to know. Bethany writes, it is a very serious thing all around with teenagers and children. Lots of deep thinking. So she's basically saying the stakes can be very high with teenagers and children in the church.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:46:22] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] Glenn writes, I've been on all three hours. This has been an incredible recording. So Glenn is loving. Glenn has stayed with us the full three hours. So thanks, Glenn, we appreciate it. And Ann agrees. Anne says, agree, I can't turn it off. So, Natasha, people are glued to their computer screens.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:46:41] Oh my goodness.

John Dehlin [00:46:42] Loving your Story Dana writes how hard it is to feel ostracized from your Mormon family. I understand completely. It's heartbreaking. That's true. Jeff wants to know what other denominations did you attend with your family?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:46:59] Well, so we've gone quite a bit actually to the Community of Christ, which is our more liberal cousins and they're great. And Isabella actually did a youth camp with them over the summer one time and loved it. We've gone to several of the evangelical type churches and there's one in particular where there's kind of a fiery pastor and he just is really humorous and brings great life into the scripture stories that Andy was like, if we ever go back to church, I'm going to have some great scripture stories for my sacrament talks. He's been good that way. And, and then we've been to some like non denominational spiritual type things. We've definitely been involved with Oasis, which is the branch that is trying to do religious. Well, not religious, but like spiritual community or not even spiritual, just community without the church, without the religion. Right. So I've done. And Wichita just started a chapter here. So we've been attending their thing often and so just a variety of things. We probably could be a little bit more proactive, but Sundays are busy and life is busy and I would have liked to go to the Unitarian Church by now. I would have liked to go to. We have a great Muslim kind of convention center here where I know they do tours. We did a Greek Orthodox tour in the church that they have here that's also very beautiful. So there's more things I'd like to explore.

John Dehlin [00:48:27] Love it. Melissa writes, I've been listening and getting all my housework and laundry done today. So you're helping Melissa do her work? She says she loves listening to Natasha. Richard writes, Natasha, I'm convinced that the LDS teaching that violations of the law of chastity are worse than all of their sins except murder and blasphemy against the Holy Ghost are very damaging teachings on many levels. Will you please take a few minutes and share your thoughts? I think you've kind of addressed that in your first couple episodes, but anything you want to add other than it's horrifically damaging?

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:49:00] Yeah, yeah, no, I agree. And I think, I mean, I spoke to this in the paper that I wrote, but this idea that, well, murder is you're taking a life and unwanted pregnancies you're giving a life and both are unsanctioned. There's just no comparison of those two things. First of all, we have Caveats for murder. You know, as far as war and other reasons why it's actually even appropriate to take a life. That I think is always ethically complicated. But as a society and it's different cultures, we have to grapple with that. But to compare, you know, two people in a moment of passion, even if they feel like it's a mistake later on to have that even in the same sentence has anything to do with the criminal act of murder, is just so ridiculous. And so, you know, just so. What's the word when you. It just has an impact on you. And when you think about these young kids of ours who. And when they hear all this language, first of all, we never talk about what we're really talking about. It's like sexual sin. Well, what does that even mean? I mean, most of them are masturbating, right? Year olds, the 14 year olds. I can't tell you how many adolescents. This was part of my decision to write my blog post. The month before I published my blog post, I had seen four adolescents who were self cutting, like actual, what we would call self abuse. I'd seen a missionary who came home from his mission due to anxiety, and I'd seen all five of those had to do with masturbation guilt. And on top of it, I had seen three other adolescents that were being referred to addiction treatment centers for viewing pornography or masturbating. And we're talking about like less than one time a month. I'm just like, what in the hell are we doing? Like, this isn't Mormonism. This isn't even doctrine. This isn't nothing. This is like a cultural tradition that has gone out of whack. And you see it not only in Mormonism, there's sex addiction treatment centers being built left and right here in the Bible Belt. There's all this media attention on people like Tiger woods and Wiener, whatever the hell we're doing in this country that comes from a puritanical background. That is ridiculous. And it's affected our Mormonism, but it is not doctrinal. And yeah, I'm super comfortable saying we need to be called to repentance on this crap that is psychologically and sexually abusing our children. It's like I said, it's just bullshit.

John Dehlin [00:51:44] Well, don't hold back, Natasha.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:51:49] I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] No, it's. No, it's awesome. No, I agree. I think, you know, I've now have seven, eight years counseling or coaching Mormons. And I would compare. I would say in some ways the LGBT Mormon experience is incomparable but in terms of quantity and volume of people affected, and sometimes in terms of severity and intensity, I think this plague around porn and masturbation and the shame and the guilt it causes is its own epidemic. And I have seen people driven to the point of deep depression, self abuse, meaning cutting or other types of things, or even suicidality because of these issues. So it's a serious deal.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:52:42] Yeah. And it affects marriages, you know, sexual repression issues. It's very hard to turn on the switch right after it's been turned off. I mean, all those kinds of things. It's just one thing after another.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:52:55] I would like to, if you don't mind, just since this is. We're probably getting to the end, I'm guessing, of part three of my very long Mormon story, but I would like to just kind of. I had planned to disclose two things about myself from a. From a Mormon practice perspective, and that is that of tithing, and that is that of garments. So if you don't mind, I'd like to talk briefly about those two things.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] Go for it.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:53:25] So my relationship.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] Get yourself in more trouble. Go.

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:53:28] Yeah, get myself in more trouble. Well, and again, I want to be clear that, first of all, the principle of tithing, I think, is a beautiful principle. I think that the idea of charity work and financial support of those who are suffering in ways that we cannot even fathom is absolutely important and should be a part of every religious, you know, creed or. And I think it is, for the most part. So I'm completely supportive of the principle of tithing. I had an experience. I'm going to try to be very careful here, to be very careful about my confidentiality issues. But I've had many people, of course, through my office over the years that have experienced sexual abuse at the hands of church members. Okay. Whether it's a young men's leader, young women's leader, or bishoprics, or whatever. So that in of itself is a whole other podcast and very, very painful for a variety of reasons, as I'm sure most of you can imagine. And it was in one of these events that I felt like the police were informed correctly. Everything happened correctly. You know, the police were informed, the person responsible was kept accountable, the family was informed. Everybody was doing the right thing, including the church. You know, supporting this person, getting therapy services, supporting the family, etc. Etc. Years later, I come to find out that the church had offered this family, and now I know of other families monies to basically have a minor sign a piece of paper where he or she agrees to not disclose their story outside, like in a memoir or something like that. So in other words, even though everything was on the up and up and everybody did the right thing, the church still felt a need to offer monies with something attached to it that has to do with silence, which we know in the therapy world is the number one thing you should not feel is silenced when you have gone through a trauma. And this was many years ago that this happened. And I had a discussion with Andy that night saying, I will not ever give one more cent to our church from here on out. So, as a believing member, we decided to put our monies elsewhere. So we still pay tithing in the regard of being charitable with our monies, but not to the LDS church that would have monies go to these types of either legal, types of fees or lawyers or anything that would have to do with. Anything to do with silencing trauma victims. I just will not support that. And I will still answer yes to I'm a full tithing payer. So those are, you know, those are some of the issues that obviously a lot of bishops may not agree with me on. The second story is my garments. So again, I'm one that will completely honor religious garb, right? So lots of religions have different religious icons or symbols or things of that nature. And I think that's. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that. I don't know that we need to be quite as rigid as we are with it in our culture. But I never had a problem wearing my garments. I never felt. I felt like that was. I was okay with it. From a personal perspective, I understand that there are a lot of problems, and it's definitely not the sexiest way to present yourself to your spouse. So I'm all for lingerie, etc. That's again, another podcast. But when it comes to the basic idea of having religious garb associated with a religious practice, there was nothing that I felt was incongruent with my beliefs on that. And the day that I found out that I had entered into a polygamous sealing ceremony without my knowledge and consent, I felt like the church had broken their covenant with me. And at that. That day is the day I took off my garment. And I actually had a very difficult time doing that. But covenants go both ways. And that was not my covenant with God. That was my covenant with the Mormon Church. So they're off, and I'm starting to wear things where maybe that's a little bit more noticeable. So I just want understand, I want people to understand where that comes from. And that doesn't mean that I think everybody should take their garments off. These are. Again, I want to just. I want to speak from my personal experience. This is not me as a therapist or this is just my journey as a Mormon woman. So the day that they rescind polygamy and talk about that being a mistake that happened from a doctrinal perspective, I may consider renegotiating my covenants in a temple.

John Dehlin [00:58:28] That's powerful. Thanks for sharing something so sensitive and so candid, and I hope it doesn't get you in trouble. What do you still. What do you believe now that would still be considered Mormon doctrine? So what Mormon beliefs do you retain?

Beliefs, Identity, and Closing Reflections

Natasha Helfer Parker [00:58:49] Well, and I think beliefs are hard, right? Because I have gotten very comfortable with beliefs being hopes, dreams. So again, my belief, I think with Mormons, belief is conflated with knowledge. We know things. So I'm not really one to say I know anything. I know nothing. However, I hope in many things. And I would say that there are things that have been very useful in my spiritual journey, whether they're literally true or not. So the idea of a feminine divine and a masculine divine, that's been very wonderful for me. The idea of a body being a gift, the idea of having this experience on this world for some type of purpose or learning experience is being beautiful to me. The idea that progression is something that can happen on an ongoing basis, that there's no end stick, right, or measuring stick that gets you to an end point, like there's this eternal progression that can happen. I hope and believe that there could be the possibility of an afterlife where we can be with people that we love and care for and who've loved us. I mean, that would be a beautiful thing to have happen. Whether or not that's true, I don't know. It's useful to me. It helps me when somebody dies that I love very much to have those kinds of thoughts and beliefs. And we're not alone in that as Mormons, obviously, there's lots of people who have those kinds of beliefs, and I'm okay with it being just a comforting thing. And if someday all I am is warm food, I'm not really going to care too much. But for right now, I do care. It's a comforting belief, and I honor that hope in me. I think that the idea of even restoration is a beautiful idea, whether or not it's as literal as we would like it to think, but that there are things from the past that are of worth and that we can restore and have something happen currently that comes from the past, I think is an honoring of our ancestries. I think that there's great beauty in this idea of having a personal relationship with deity, where there's something that speaks in each of us that we can have personal revelation. This idea that I don't have to go through another entity, that I can have that type of relationship myself and start to learn to trust my own inner workings as far as what speaks for me. Again, I don't know that we do a very good job of that culturally in Mormonism, but the idea is there.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] Right. Okay. Are you comfortable sharing maybe some of the things you no longer believe that are distinctive and doctrinal, or would you rather not go into that? It's like truth claim stuff.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:01:42] Well, I don't, again, through my Mormon mind, they're not non doctrinal because I don't think they were doctrinal to begin with. That's kind of where I nuance things. But yeah, that's this idea that we're like, we're the only way back to God. Right. And that our way is the only way, I think is narcissistic and asinine. So that's ridiculous. I think that literal things where people. I think we've conflated history with spirituality. And so there's lots of historical things that I think are ridiculous for us to continue to believe, but that has. Doesn't necessarily have to have to do anything with Mormon spirituality or doctrine. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:24] Do you see that? What about, like, do you have a sense for where the Book of Mormon came from?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:02:31] Well, I think that it's. It's, you know, as far as we can tell, it's not what the church claims it is currently. And a lot of times when people ask me, you know, well, what do you think about Joseph Smith and the visions and the Book of Mormon? And my answer to that is, well, something happened. Maybe it was a psychotic break, I don't know, but something happened where people followed and people were edified and people have created a culture. And I can, and for some reason I was adopted into that along the way. It's not my history, it's not my ancestry. Right. And so. So you all are way too connected to your history with your religion. Right. I mean, that's just ridiculous. Nobody's religion can stand up to history. That's just. So Mormonism just, I think, got it wrong in that way. Why we study history as part of our church service is ridiculous to me. Because you're Gonna come up with problems. Cause history deals with people and people are a disaster for the most part, we all are.

John Dehlin [01:03:45] And so if, and things like Joseph's polygamy, if I'm imagining you aren't a fan of Joseph's polygamy, right?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:03:54] No, I'm not.

John Dehlin [01:03:56] So if you don't believe that was of God and he claimed it was, and if you don't believe the Book of Mormon is kind of what the church claims it is, you know, some people just say, well then Joseph was like conning people or fooling people. So I can't belong to a church that he founded. How do you get around that yourself?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:04:17] Well, first of all, I think that's a perfectly okay thing to think. And there's lots of people who legitimately leave for those reasons and I think that's perfectly valid. Again, for me, I feel like I would be dealing with a lot less people in my life if I had those standards. For everybody who I deal with, including myself, there's days that I think I've done an amazing job as a mother and I probably sucked. And there's other days. But does that mean that I'm conning or that I'm abusive? I mean, maybe, maybe, but I don't know that we're all as self aware as we'd like to think we are.

John Dehlin [01:04:52] And I could hear an audience member saying, yeah, but propositioning other men's wives and 14 year olds, oh, it's ridiculous.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:05:00] It was totally abusive.

John Dehlin [01:05:01] But it's not even on the same, same scale as making a mistake as a mom. So maybe some would say you're trivializing the severity of what Joseph did.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:05:12] Well, I hope I'm not trivializing the severity of what he did. I think that quite frankly, he did have probably mental health issues. I do think that he was probably had a personality disorder of some sort. And he probably, for whatever reason, people follow charismatic leaders the wrong way all the time, as we can see right now, quite frankly, with our president of this country. So yeah, there's all kinds of problems with power and leaders and dynamics that happen from a mental health perspective that we can follow. But for me, my Mormonism was never about Joseph Smith. My Mormonism was about something much bigger than that. So I understand that the church has shot themselves in the foot when they say things like if you don't believe in this, and if you don't believe in this, then the whole thing is falling apart. Well, then duh, the whole thing falls apart. They're idiots for saying that kind of Stuff because the evidence is right there for the whole thing to fall apart if we're all basing our Mormonism on some of the idiotic things that Joseph Smith did. So at the same time, there was a movement, there was something that happened there that. That's what I'm willing to honor. I'm willing to honor the people who sacrificed. And whatever happened led to the point where my parents had two young men knock at their door, and that changed the course of my life in a way that I will never get away from, and I'm willing to honor that.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] And now you're going back.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:06:36] And now I'm going back

John Dehlin [01:06:39] after stepping away for five years.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:06:43] Yeah. So we'll see how that goes. You can interview me again in five more years.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] Or six months.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:06:48] Yeah, or six months.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] I'm just kidding. Totally kidding. Totally kidding. Natasha, over Parker, you're one of my favorite people on the planet, and we've had a lot of people last this full three, four hours, so that's amazing. It's been a beautiful, heartwarming episode. I want to thank everyone who's been tuning in. Do you have any final thoughts or final perspectives, a final sort of testimony of sorts that you would want to share with our listeners as we. As we wrap up this wonderful interview?

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:07:24] Well, I just want to say thank you for the opportunity to be on and share my Mormon story, which I purposefully have not really shared a lot of these things in the past, like I talked about at the very beginning with my own boundaries and things. So I think it's very healing to be able to have a place to share one's narrative. And that's, in essence, what therapy services are a lot about, is sharing our narratives, sharing our stories with a witness who will honor your story as you share it. So, in a sense, any of you who are listening to this, you're honoring me in that way, and that's very meaningful, very lovely. And I think that whatever we want to say about our Mormonism and however we've been harmed by never ceases to amaze me that its product is amazing people. Amazing people. And I don't know exactly why that is, but I'm honored to be counted among you all. And for me, you all can mean anywhere on the spectrum, you know, from our polygamist cousins who are still practicing to those of you who the last thing you'd want to have attributed to you as being Mormon in any way, shape, or fashion. So I'm just honored to be a part of this community.

John Dehlin [01:08:50] Well, Natasha, Alfred, Parker, you're a gift to Mormonism and you're a gift to me as a friend. So I love you and thanks for joining us.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:08:57] Thank you, John. I'm so glad to call you friend as well.

John Dehlin [01:09:01] Listen, Jenny writes, you totally rock. I really appreciate your point of view. Steve writes, natasha, you are always a delight. I love your laugh and your great attitude. Thanks for being so vulnerable for us. This was a terrific interview. Kyle writes, when where can we see this posted? I'm guessing Kyle next week will post it to mormonstories.org but also Kyle, in probably less than an hour, it'll show up on the Mormon Stories podcast Facebook page and you can just re watch it there as much as you want. Colleen writes, loved every minute. This was revolutionary. Sherry writes, I love and appreciate your open authenticity. Sarah writes, thank you for sharing yourself, Natasha. You've lifted me. Joyce writes, love you, Natasha. And John, thanks for a great afternoon. Thanks, Joyce. Randy writes, you have such a huggable soul. So Randy says, you have a huggable soul.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:09:55] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:09:55] I think that's true. Sherry writes, you summed it up with including everyone. Thank you. And Crystal gives you three hearts with sparkly little sparkles on the hearts.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:10:06] The sparkles matter.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] Yeah. And Glenn, thanks for joining us the whole time. All right, everyone, thanks for joining us. For those of you who support the Open Stories foundation and these podcasts, thank you. We couldn't do it without you. For those of you who are free writers, who don't support us, who don't offer donations, please consider 10 or 20 or 50, $100 a month, whatever you can afford. Go to the podcast you enjoy, click on the donate button at the top right and please donate because this stuff saves lives, saves marriages, helps people, and it helps you or you wouldn't be listening. So please support it because it makes it possible. Please check out Mormon Mental health podcast@mormonmentalhealthpodcast.org I think it is. It's mormonmentalhealth.org yeah. Check symmetrysoulss s o l s.com for a therapist. If you need a good Mormon therapist, check out symmetry souls.com check out Mormon sex Info if you want a great podcast on Mormon sex, which I'm sure is similar and sometimes dissimilar to regular sex. Mormon sex, yeah. But that's Natasha's great podcast. Check out the Mormon Therapist blog and tune in again for more cool episodes on Mormon Stories. I'm Natasha. We love you. Thanks again.

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:11:27] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:11:28] Thanks, everybody. Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you guys soon. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights. When other sources cease to make me whole when with a wounded heart, anger

Natasha Helfer Parker [01:12:06] or malice

John Dehlin [01:12:10] I draw myself apart, searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.