Introduction and Context for the Episode

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is April 13, 2021, and this is a somber, a sad, and hopefully an empowering moment in sort of the modern Mormon era. I'm John Dehlin. This is my partner. Thanks for joining us, Margi. And we're recording and broadcasting live from Mormon Stories Podcast studios in Holiday, Utah. And we are here to support and listen to and hear from one of the most beloved people that we know. Her name is Natasha Helfer. Hello, Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [00:00:41] Hi, John and Margi.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] Thank you. We're so glad you're here. We're so honored to be a part of this, even though it's not the best of circumstances. But we're here because Natasha Helfer. On Easter Sunday, 2021, Natasha Helfer received word from her stake president in Kansas that she would be called into what I'm going to call a disciplinary council. Other people will call it other things. The church has changed the name on these sorts of things. But because I think a banana is still a banana, even if you call it a thingamabob. An excommunication is still an excommunication, even if you call it the withdrawal of membership, whatever they call it these days, or a membership council. So I'm going to call it disciplinary council. I'm going to call it an excommunication. But we're here because Natasha Hofer has been advocating for healthy sexuality within Mormonism for well over a decade. She started out as the Mormon therapist, and from the beginning, she has been fighting for families, fighting for LGBT people, fighting for youth, fighting to normalize healthy sexuality, and fighting against unhealthy sexual stigma and shame for married couples, for individuals, for masturbation, for LGBTQ individuals, for trans individuals. And she has been on the front lines in so many ways. But in addition to that, she's been a dear friend of our family. She has been there for us, for our children, for me and Margi in countless ways. She has led dozens and dozens of workshops and retreats for mixed faith couples, for people in faith crisis. She's the host of Mormon Mental Health podcast. She is the creator, co founder, founder of the Mormon Mental Health Association. She is the creator and founder of Symmetry Solutions, which is a network of mental health professionals who support Mormons in transition and Mormon marriages and mixed faith marriages and healthy sexuality. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She is a licensed sex therapist, and she is a pillar in our community. And she is now being called inexplicably to a disciplinary council for excommunication for literally nothing other than advocating for sexual health. She's never been speaking about truth claims publicly. She's just been trying to help people live healthy, happy lives. And we're all just kind of dumbfounded. So thank you for joining us today. Please spread the word. And we're here to have her tell this story and to listen to Natasha about what she's speaking out for, why she wants to talk about this, why she's actually even attending her disciplinary council, what's the background behind the disciplinary council, what led to it, what is odd or strange about it, and what she cares about most and what she's fighting for. But Natasha Helford, thank you for joining us.

Natasha Helfer Responds to Her Disciplinary Notice

Natasha Helfer [00:03:24] Goodness, thank you for having me. That was quite the introduction.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:28] You deserve it all.

John Dehlin [00:03:31] And Margi, why are you here?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:33] I am here because I love Natasha and I am here to honor and witness her as a human going through, in my opinion, an abuse of power situation, an aggressive act, a violent act that does not just affect her, it affects her family. And because we know a little bit of what that's like and so we want to stand with her. So that's why I'm here.

Natasha Helfer [00:04:00] Well, Margi isn't helping me keep this professional and I think I just want to start off with that. I just want to start off that I'm going to try to make this as professional and clinically sound of an interview as possible and really be about facts and information. But I do just have to admit that it's been a very difficult few weeks emotionally. So this is the only time I'm going to apologize for my emotion and not apologize in the sense of that I should apologize for my emotion, but just apologize that it will interrupt sometimes maybe my train of thought or my capacity to be my best thinker self because I definitely am sleep deprived and a little bit overwhelmed with everything I've been trying to manage, you know, just in the last week and a half. So I also want to make clear, just from the get go, before we start into questions, that my primary goal is to retain my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. That is my primary goal and that is why I have spent. This is the first time I'm really being public about this, other than on my Facebook page yesterday, because I was hoping that this, there would be some way to avoid this from happening. And I spent. Oh, thank you for my tissue. I spent the last week really reaching out to as many people as I could think of including my local leaders, including area authorities, including people who have connections with people I don't have. I'm a convert to the church. I'm not. I'm not pioneer stock. I don't have connections to family members who are general authorities or anything like that. So I was really trying very, you know, very adamantly to avoid this from happening one, because it is very personally

Margi Dehlin [00:05:52] wounding

Natasha Helfer [00:05:55] and because this is my spiritual home. It's where I've had all of my spiritual experiences and all the rituals that matter tremendously to me. But I also understand from having witnessed how these types of events affect our community, they are not healthy for us as, as a whole. And to be part of something that I know is going to be difficult for people for different reasons, whether you're kind of on my side or not is painful because that's the last thing I want to be about. So my second goal is if this is going to go down, if this is what's going to happen, that I'm going to use this as an opportunity to educate and teach the things that I know to be professionally true because of the very serious dedication I've had to my profession, my ethical dedication, my. And I have, you know, there's a lot of Mormon cred, I guess, that John just gave me, but I have been very involved in, for example, the AMFT organization. I've served on boards and what is the. The American association for Marriage and Family Therapy. I've pretty much served on boards from my graduation as an mft. I have been the president at the Kansas chapter of the American. Of the AMFT chapter. I'm also a member of asac, which is the American association for Sexual Educators, THERAP Therapists and Counselors. And I took the invitation really from. We could talk about this later, but from a visit to the Department of Health and Human Services to consider the idea of starting a mental health association that would serve the needs of my LDS community. I am the founder of the Mormon Mental Health association. And that has been a labor of many hours and love and with colleagues who just mean the world to me and who are also very dedicated to ethical practice within our community, which is something that is very important to be talking about because we have some serious issues in that regard. So those are my two goals. I want to remain a member of the church and I want to help this. If this is going to happen, I want it to be hopefully an educational and healthy conversation as to how we can do better.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] But I also think it's important to tell the story like these disciplinary councils can be so weird in that rules are, norms are violated, reasons are given that aren't always the reasons that decisions are being made. Sometimes rules are broken. And it's just these, I think, Margi, I agree with you. These disciplinary councils are barbaric. They're medieval, they're inhumane. They're kind of anachronisms. They're kind of like a procedural, cultural anachronisms. There shouldn't be modern excommunications in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and particularly not for you, for, for loving the church, for loving its members, for advocating for sexual health. It's. It's egregious, it's outrageous. And, and so I, you know, I just, I've been inspired by the civil rights movement by Martin Luther King. And, you know, I grew up seeing the September 6th and seeing people get silenced and excommunicated. And it's just always been my goal to say no more. And the. We turn excommunications into a sacrament. Not, not, hopefully that won't happen to you. But instead of shrinking and becoming silent, we show up at Bill Reals, we show up at Sam Young's, we show up at the excommunications, we hold vigils, we live stream them, and we, we do our best to broadcast to the world that the church keeps doing this and we're going to keep doing it until they stop. And I thought when they changed their rules, changed the name of the disciplinary councils, took away the name excommunication, that maybe that would mean that they were kind of backing off this practice and that after, maybe by Covid and after Covid, we would just see a ramping down of these disciplinary councils. And so I, I did not see this coming, Natasha. And. But we're going to be showing up for you in Wichita this Sunday. A bunch of us are flying from Utah. I just want to let people know that if you want to come to you, to Wichita with us and be at Natasha's vigil, we're going to be there for her. We're going to be there for you, Natasha, and we're going to live stream it and we're going to. We're not going to stop shining light on this evil practice until it goes away.

Natasha Helfer [00:11:01] So after all of that. Oh, sorry. After all of that, you know what might, what some people might consider strong language that John just shared. And I would probably not use the same type of language, but agree basically with the principles that this is not a healthy Practice, and I would consider this even a spiritually abusive practice. A lot of people have, you know, reached out to me, me in the sense of like, why would you go on Mormon stories to talk about this particular issue if you're trying to signal that, you know, your membership matters? Because I don't know, I guess John is a big pariah, right, in our, in our community. So I want to address that for a minute. I mean, first of all, one of the things that is really bothersome to me in our Mormon community, in our LDS community, is this othering that we tend to do these kinds of hyper vigilant monitoring of each other's behavior and ideas and beliefs in order to decide whether or not we belong to the tribe. I have never liked that. I think it goes very contrary to the most basic principles of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And I believe I have a full intellectual and spiritual and emotional capacity to have a wonderful relationship with my friend and colleague John de Lynn, while many times agreeing with him, many times disagreeing with him, having different approaches, having different abilities to approach our community and to talk, the things that I think are important to both of us. So this idea that somehow I'm signaling by being here with my friends that I trust and that have been through a lot of both personal and professional events in our joined lives as we have strived to serve in very similar ways, I think is in of itself problematic and shows that according to social science, high demand religions, the more conservative a religion is, the more the culture micromanages what its members are doing. So for example, even though we have very similar doctrines or doctrinal understandings as the Catholic Church, we are actually considered a more traditional church culture than the Catholics, not because we differ in doctrinal and understanding, but because we differ in markers. Markers. And this is information that, oh, Adam Fisher once told me about because we've presented together, he's a professional that I very much respect. And we've presented on working with LDS communities from a mental health perspective, like training other mental health professionals to work with Mormon clients. The book that comes from is the Acts of Faith. And it's a social science kind of measurement of how religions are going to be categorized. So the fact is that, you know, you can be a fairly, I think good, whatever good is considered Catholic and go to church four or five times a year, you know, maybe use your rosary, consider yourself Catholic and be welcomed in the Catholic community and be considered a Catholic by your community. That's not the case for the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] Right.

Natasha Helfer [00:14:20] There's A lot more markers, a lot of more ways that we have to show up to prove that we are worthy of being considered. Things like active, like, worthy, like, you know, able to retain our membership. So that's been a concern of mine because I think that we want to be as inclusive as possible. I think that there are lots of members of this community, of our tribe that would love to be a part of our community if those markers weren't as rigid and as inflexible and if they didn't feel quite the judgment that sometimes we call out. Even in our own general conference. Even in this general conference that I just heard this last weekend, there was a mention that it was surprising to this leader that people in a neighborhood would complain that members of our church would not let their kids play with their kids because they were not members of the church. And that comment was. I struggled with it because I was glad that he was calling that out, but I didn't see him take systemic responsibility for why that happens. Because we are taught oftentimes that if somebody disagrees with us, that they are dangerous, that they are not to be trusted, and that they're going to have an influence on us, on our children. And of course, we get protective when we hear things like that, especially from people who are speaking, in a sense, for. For our God, that we, you know, maybe have a direct sense of. Of honor and, you know, duty to serve. So I just want to call that out. Yes, I'm on Mormon Stories. Yes. John de Len is my friend. He's also has a clinical background. We don't always see eye to eye. We don't always take the same approach. So what? So what? Here I am. He's going to ask me questions. We love each other. Why can't we do that? Why can't we do that in our community? Why can't we just love each other instead of micromanage each other? I'm sorry. If you're waiting for some therapeutic silence, it's okay. You can ask me more questions. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] Thank you for that, Natasha. That was beautiful. Maybe, if you want, should we start by going back and talking it a bit, just a tiny bit about your career and what you've tried to do, what you. Your career has been about, and kind of the background that would lead to kind of what's been going on today, and you can talk as much or as little about that as you want to?

Natasha's Background in Psychology and Sexual Health

Natasha Helfer [00:17:07] Sure, I can give my background. I mean, I studied psychology at Brigham Young University, got my master's in science there My master's, my bachelor's of science went on to get my master's degree at a small university called Friends University in Wichita, Kansas, has kind of like a Quaker inheritance that, given the name, was no longer owned by the Quaker religion by any means, but kind of had a Christian slant, I would say a slight Christian slant to that program. I felt it prepared me very well for relational expertise and helping couples primarily and families have good relational health. I do not think now, looking back, that it prepared me for being a sexual health advocate. So. And that's a problem that is systemic in this country and one of the kind of primary critiques of how it's interesting that, you know, you can have a sex therapist, you can have a marriage therapist, have very different training and very different ideas about how to help a couple. And that's, that's a, that's a bridge and a gap that needs to happen within that community. And there is progress being made in that, in that front. So I graduated from that program in 1997 and went on to. My first job was actually in Detroit, Michigan. I'm moving around a lot, of course, because I'm doing kind of the Mormon woman thing, right? We're not prioritizing my career, we're prioritizing my husband. So I am. I didn't go to Kansas for my, for my master's degree because that was my choice. It was like what was available to me. And I also went to Detroit, Michigan, because my husband was going to attend the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor and tried to find a job there, which happened in the heroin addiction treatment center and one of the methadone treatment centers that they had in that city. And that's where I got my hours for licensure. I needed to work full time for that. So I did opt at that time in my own family planning to not have children, which again, is a difficult decision given some of the admonitions that were and the guidelines that were given by some of these leaders, by our leaders. And then we moved to Wisconsin. And at that point I worked for LDS Family Services as a contract clinician, meaning that the main office was in Chicago, but I was in Wisconsin and kind of the Milwaukee, northern Milwaukee area. So although I didn't, I did work for them directly, but not like in their office, I guess, as a contract clinician. And it was there that I started really primarily working with LD folks. And all right away, like right on day one, I had sexual health issues entering my office, mixed orientation marriages, sexual shame, body image issues. Masturbatory and pornography. Shame. Just a lot of the things that, you know, kind of hit me as a surprise a little bit as a, as a greenie, as a green therapist. And, and so I started trying to do my research. I would ask LDS Family Services for their kind of resources, most of which now that they sent me would be considered completely unethical and actually a very bad practice and part of what is considered kind of overall conversion therapy techniques. And so I had a lot of misinformation even as a young therapist and especially in the sex addiction and porn addiction type of realm, which was just starting to be kind of themes that were being talked about. And I got a lot misinformation there too. So after about like seven years of working there, actually I didn't work for LDS families. I worked for LDS Family Services for about two years and then I just went into private practice myself. But after about seven years, we moved to Witcha, Kansas again. This the second time that we were there and I lost my practice, right, because I'm a Mormon wife, you know, just kind of moving and following her, her husband's career. And so I lost everything I had built in in Wisconsin and had to start over. And so there was definitely an interim in my time. I didn't have a lot to do, you know, in my, in my professional capacity. I had lots to do with my four kids, but not a lot of to do with my. So that's when I started the Mormon Therapist Blog. Because I thought, well, there's so many issues, so many things. I know that our culture struggles with transparency. I know that it's hard to talk about when things are not going well in a family. I think that there is still this kind of like overall idea that if we are righteous enough, we won't have the types of problems that people expect not to have, like infidelity, like divorce, like kids who are acting out, like kids who do not want to follow the gospel, right? Like all these things that it's like, well, but I thought that if I did A and B and C, that D, E and F would just automatically come, you know, as blessings. And so people have a really difficult relationship with their own weaknesses, with their own struggles, with their own behavioral habits, especially if their behaviors are not aligned with maybe their values or that the leaders, values or ideas of how human, you know, human life cycle should go. So I started talking about that and pretty much immediately in came the questions surrounding sexuality. I mean, here is this forum where people could anonymously ask somebody who you Know, they could in a sense, kind of trust. And, you know, whenever you are part of a community, you generally tend to trust people in your community more than not than people outside of your community. And so I tried to start answering some of these questions and quickly started feeling like having this feeling that I'm not sure that I'm answering these questions correctly. I'm not, you know, like, some of these questions that are coming in are pretty intricate about human sexuality, and I think I better kind of check my own stuff. So I, at that point became very interested in becoming a certified sex therapist through the association ASEC that I mentioned before and started that process. And, boy, was that. Was that a discovery process. You know, I felt like I had to start all over in a lot of ways, educationally, it was almost like a second master's degree. As far as the rigor that they put you through to be able to call yourself an ASEC certified sex therapist, it's a big deal. It's not like a weekend getaway or a conference that you go and get a little certificate. No, it's a certification process that is very intense, and you have to take quite a bit of educational hours, plus you have to have supervision for 18 months to two years by another certified sex therapist, you know, overviewing your. Your cases and stuff. So it was very similar to my master's degree process. And in that process, I started recognizing my bias, my probably ways that I had harmed clients without even actually knowing, which was just phenomenally atrocious to me, to think about that, you know, in my. In what I thought was my clinical expertise, I had been correct and even biased and probably had allowed. Oh, what's the term? John helped me think of it. Not cognitive dissonance, but when we agree with people that we already. Confirmation bias. I had allowed confirmation bias to listen to the types of theories in my profession that aligned with gospel teachings. Right. Because I very much identified, you know, as a Mormon believer. And so I. I had to really step back and look at the ethics of my profess, which takes that kind of thing very seriously, that we can do much harm when we allow for our own biases, our own religious values, personal values, and that's whether they're religious or not. Right. It doesn't matter. Any kind of bias that we have, that we allow to kind of seep through that clinical wall with a client can. Can really cause undue harm. I think as clinicians, we all know that we have them. It's impossible, really, to see a completely unbiased professional Just because all of us have our. Our own personal experiences, our own value systems, et cetera. But that. That really hit very strongly to me that. That this was a huge responsibility of mine. If I was going to continue to practice and. And to pretend to know what I was talking about in regards to sexuality, something as complex and integral to people's experiences, that I better know my stuff and I better not sway people. And I think also what came. What I started recognizing two years later is that. That fervor to learn and to really know my stuff and to not be. And to have, like, 10 ways that I could say, okay, but there's 10 research articles that can prove this to be true. I think came from. From the understanding, maybe subconsciously, that I did not really have a lot of authority in my community. I'm a woman. I don't have the priesthood. So if I'm going to say something that maybe disagrees with what a church leader has said or a cultural norm that we tend to have, I needed to have a lot of clinical authority to back my positions. So I think I was a little bit overzealous. Maybe it's a bit of the perfectionistic Mormon woman, too, that was in me, but I was definitely overzealous in my approach to my learning and. And why I feel as confident as I do now to be able to say, no, this. This is the best knowledge that we have at this particular time in regards to these issues that I will be talking about today. So as I started the Mormon Blog, I got to be more well known. I got invited to things like Mormon Stories and Mormon Matters and other podcasts, and John invited me to host the Mormon Mental Health podcast. I would get invited. I did get invited by the Department of Health and Human Services because they were curious about some of the issues that I would see as a clinician within our population. That was a great honor. And it was through that meeting with them and also the Human Rights Campaign that also met with me during that time, which is an organization that really focuses on LGBTQ rights, I decided that I would put forth the energy to start this association because the only association that currently exists in the Mormon community is called amcap. American Mormon Counseling. Ooh, I don't know. It's called amcap. And when I looked at the qualifications to join amcap, it basically focused more on your membership status than your clinical status. So. And I felt like. So right off the bat, I felt that there were some ethical concerns in regards to how they were looking as to whether or not you could join their organization. So I wanted to found a secular organization that regardless if you're Mormon or not, as long as you're Mormon competent, culturally competent, which means you understand the Mormon LDS tradition, you understand their values, you understand how what's important to the people and the types of issues that might come up in that particular population. Population, it didn't matter what your status was. In fact, the Mormon Mental Health association has several clinicians who are, I guess, what's. What's lovingly called Nevermos, right. Have never. Don't come from a Mormon background, but that are very adept because they've lived their entire lives here in Utah, for example, and they've lived amongst us in our culture and they understand the issues that we're dealing with. So it was a secular organization that would not allow, that would bring cultural competence, but not religious bias into the treatment of their clients. And I wanted clinicians who really took that seriously to join our organization. And it's something I'm very proud of. It's still a fledgling organization. We're still small. But if you're listening and you're a clinician that supports some of these things or that sounds like these are kind of some of your values as well, please consider reaching out to us. We'd love to have you. And I think a lot of that was motivated by what I call the two main complaints that I would get from clients who had seen other therapists. So the number one complaint is that they went to an LDS therapist and they got kind of religious guidance. Read your scriptures more, go back to church. Have you thought about prayer or fasting? And that is an overreach because that is not a therapist's responsibility. That is a bishop's responsibility. Right. Or a Relief Society president's responsibility or a stake president's responsibility to give spiritual guidance. As far as what might be helpful to that person from religious rituals. The other complaint that I would get is we went to the non LDS therapist and we told them our concerns or that we were struggling and how hurt they were by the church. And the therapist would say something kind of callous like, well, if the church isn't working for you, why don't you just find another church? And that really ignores the, first of all, the fact that we are a high demand religion. It's much harder to leave a high demand religion than it is a low demand religion. It has much more both emotional, individual and familial and communal ramifications when you leave a high demand religion. So that's very that's not culturally competent to just kind of dismiss the distress that client is sharing when they're feeling on the margins of a high demand religion. So I really started noticing that pattern and knowing that we as clinicians needed to do better. We needed to act the role of a therapist, not a bishop. And bishops should act the role of bishops, not therapists. And there's a huge difference. And also that we should value and honor people's distress and desire to either stay or leave the church along terms that have to do with their own individual agency, how the church or religion is affecting their mental health and relational health and the many complicated factors that go into whether a person decides to remain active, somewhat active or inactive. That was a long explanation of my history. I'm sorry, it's important background.

Pioneering Work in Mormon Mental Health

John Dehlin [00:32:15] Thank you. You've done really pioneering work in Mormon mental health. And so that's an important history for people. It's important that we get that history on record because that it really informs what's coming up on Sunday and. And what this should all mean to people. So what do you want to say about how your advocacy work historically has been received by your ecclesiastical leaders?

Natasha Helfer [00:32:46] Yeah, so I would say I try to do my best to not bring my clinical self to my local ward, you know, and constantly be lecturing everybody on. On things. I mean, I would raise my hand and I would share my ideas and my thoughts, but more from, you know, spiritual health perspective than, you know, trying to bring my. My lecture self, you know, into the. To Sunday School or into Relief Society, which I'm sure would be very annoying. And maybe I did some of that, and people can say I was, that's fine. But, you know, when I started the Mormon Blog therapist, for example, my stake president at the time, who actually now is an area authority of Central United States, his name is Brian Rosson. He was very supportive. He was excited about the idea. It was kind of like. It was supposed to be kind of like a dear Abbey, but for Mormons about mental health issues. And so I, you know, I didn't get any concern from that, that I was using the Mormon name or that I was doing something would be inappropriate. And so, yeah, I felt very comfortable about starting that blog as I started, you know, writing more and more about sexual health issues on the blog. And I remember one particular blog being kind of a turning point in my career, professionally, at least within my community, is I wrote my blog on normalizing masturbation and how I, as a clinician thought that there were more useful ways to look at that human behavior than kind of typical to sinful practice. So I want to share some of my thoughts about it being kind of part of normal human development. The American Pediatrics association has been trying to normalize this since, I believe, the 1950s or 60s, because we're not, you know, I believe that this is an inherited shame. I don't think that this is an inspired shame. I think sometimes we forget that our Mormon heritage, it happened in the context of a country that was founded by a puritanical community that had. That had a lot of sexual shame associated with it, and we're not going to escape all of that. Right. And so a lot of our ideas around masturbation were actually very colored by the ideas of the time as far as even what medical professionals were saying, that it could lead to things like schizophrenia and dementia and, you know, that it could lead to blindness. I mean, you know, some of the ridiculousness that that was taught kind of seeped into, I believe, our Mormon kind of narrative and. And colored some of our ideas about what. What this was. So I started talking about that, that. That was my opinion, that I thought this was an area that maybe we could really rely on some of our, what I consider our strengths as a Mormon community. The ideas of continued revelation with which imply there's continued learning and continued shifts that we're going to have to make as a people as we begin to understand things better. I think that's unfortunately a very underused part of our beautiful doctrine. I don't think we use that enough, quite frankly, or in timely ways. Oftentimes, unfortunately, with social justice or sexual health concerns. Our church has used its revelatory power, I think, in ways that kind of lag in the times. Right. Like other. Other churches and other governmental agencies and other, even medical or mental health associations kind of broach those kinds of boundaries in the community first. And I think that's sad because we have the capacity to really be a forefront in those areas instead of lagging behind like I think we do in some of these issues. So that was fine. But when I wrote that letter, I started hearing. Well, I wrote that blog post. It was on the Mormon therapist. And when I wrote that, I started noticing some of my clients, many of which had been referred by bishops or stake presidents, and also some of which LDS family counseling had referred me to. And also, you know, the church does a fairly, I would say fairly average, average plus job of supporting mental health financially, even, like, if you're struggling and you need therapy, lots of, you know, the Ward tithing or ward fast funds are used to support mental health services, which I think is a great way to use some of those services. So I was receiving some of my monies, you know, through those kinds of funds, and I started noticing clients letting me know that they would no longer be able to use those funds and would no longer be able to afford my services. And so I started, you know, wondering what was going on. And sure enough, I found out that they were, you know, I guess, kind of behind closed doors. Nobody approached me, nobody talked to me about that, nobody expressed concerns at the time. But behind closed doors there was a sense, a kind of a professional denigration of my services because I was now maybe going to influence people to think about something like normative masturbation differently than maybe what the church is used to thinking about it. So that was very concerning to me. Right. And, and herein lies kind of the age old tension between science and religion. Right? So how do you love your church and serve your church and, and be a member of your faith community and also be an expert in a field where the church has some opposing views? So that was a tension that I started feeling that was probably about 10 years ago now that I wrote that post. I'm not exactly sure. Maybe somebody can find it and see when that was. And then, you know, we started seeing all of the movements with Prop 8. I was in Wichita when that kind of push was coming from the church, which was actually very shocking to me because, you know, in my whole lived experience in Mormonism, I just remember every election season, right, we do not take a position, you know, that the little talk that they give over the pulpit, we do not take a position, vote with your conscience, prayer, be, you know, be prayerful about it, et cetera. But here all of a sudden was a very strong movement that our church got intimately involved with and asked for donations and financial support and almost as a form of whether or not you were going to be considered worthy in many of these stakes and wards, as I've talked to many people who were in those situations, especially in California at the time. So that was very concerning to me. It's, it's one thing to have kind of a doctrinal understanding of something, it's another thing to advocate, advocate publicly against what we know to be, you know, governmental regulations and policies and legislation that will not discriminate against people and people that don't even hold our values or don't have our beliefs. I mean, this was something that was going to impact every gay, lesbian, and bisexual member of our community and transgender folks as well. So that. So I did start showing concern about that, writing about that on the blog. Again, most of these things I did not share in my church meetings. There were probably a few times I walked out of Sunday school when I was upset about some of the things that were being shared that were extremely discriminatory. And I was praying and hoping that there wasn't an LGBTQ member in that setting, which I'm sure there was, listening to that kind of rhetoric and everybody pretending that there are no gay and lesbian and bisexual and transgender folks amongst us when they are there listening to those things. And where, you know, the term internalized homophobia and internalized transphobia comes forward is because people internalize this idea that there's something wrong with me. My whole community is acting like nobody should be like this. I'm. I'm here. Nobody knows that I'm like this. And so exacerbates this kind of shame and secrecy and very difficult ways to know how to fit into a community that you feel thinks that you are evil, abhorrent, perverse. Some of the terms that our church has used to describe LGBTQ members are extremely excruciating for me to read and listen to as I have gone back and done some of the research of how we talked about those things. And just as just 15 years ago, just 20 years ago, this is not something that happened 500 years ago now, this is in the lived experience of many of our current members. So I did start talking out about that, and I started talking about pornography addiction not being an actual diagnosis, and how when you have these very rigid kind of expectations and expect human behavior to be at 0% of anything, I mean, how.

Harms of Church Teaching on Sexuality and Pornography

John Dehlin [00:41:54] How.

Natasha Helfer [00:41:54] How many of us have a. Have an issue we're struggling with, Right? I mean, I struggle with my anger. I struggle with my eating. I struggle with my spending. I struggle with all kinds of things that I'm trying to manage on an ongoing basis. And when the expectation is that the only way you can be considered worthy is if you've got that 100% under control, well, it sets people up for a lot of false expectations, a lot of shame. And. And it actually increases the anxieties of these particular issues, which makes the behav increase instead of decrease. And I continue to see this pattern over and over and over. And so many marriages wounded and even divorcing because of things that, quite frankly, in mainstream American culture would be considered normal and not a big deal. And yet we are struggling at a whole Other level. So, yes, I started talking about that as well. And then I got involved with the Sam Young Protect LDS Children movement. He asked me to be kind of the clinical voice of that. And I felt very comfortable supporting that because of all kinds of issues around grooming, around inappropriate boundaries in our culture about shaming, developmental sexual, normative behavior, like masturbation, like fantasy, like some normative exploration and dating, etc.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:19] Etc.

Natasha Helfer [00:43:21] So, yes, I have spoken about all those things and I stand by them. I can't tell you the research and the supervision and the conferences and the sessions I have gone to to be able to calmly and confidently tell you that my clinical practices are sound. And I'm extremely saddened that that now brings me into the, this spiritual kind of divide with my own faith.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] And it should be enough to say that your, your therapeutic practices are evidence based.

Natasha Helfer [00:44:02] Evidence based. And not only evidence based, but considered best practice, which is, you know, when you think about, well, how am I going to treat depression? There's, there's a lot of ways people treat depression or attempt to treat depression or claim that they treat depression that are not considered best practice. For example, tarot reading. I'm okay, if you want a tarot read, that's fine, but it's not a best practice approach to treating depression. Right. And so I think, and there's, and it's important to have best practice standards in a field as important as mental health, because even though there are many people out there that maybe have great intentions, want to be healers, want to be part of the healing community, there can be a lot of harm done when people have their own kind of ideas about how things should go. And in fact, the sex addiction model comes from one person. It comes from this gentleman called Patrick Carnes. And it was his best thinking as far as how to help people who felt like they were out of control with their sexual behavior. But it was not a body. A group of people who, you know, have to really resort to the rigor of research and uphold statistical data. And I mean, if you want to know, one class it totally messed me up, was statistics and byu, you know, professional statistics. I was like, oh my gosh, am I going to pass this class? Because it's rigorous, you really have to understand the complexities of research and how to do research well and to make sure research isn't biased. And it needs to be duplicated and it needs to be accepted by these bodies, these governing bodies. That's why these mental health associations are so important, because they kind of regulate, they they cut. Not that they're perfect. I mean, they're consistently changing too, but they're at least regulating and stopping one individual from having such a dramatic effect. And so the porn addiction, sex addiction model was developed by one man, whereas healthier approaches to dealing with sexuality have been developed by governing bodies and clinicians who train themselves under such.

John Dehlin [00:46:05] And, and so, you know, we all know that, that unfortunately, conservative religious traditions often lag behind science. And so that's kind of a little bit to be expected. But it's so important that you have rooted your, your practices and your teachings in evidence based practices and best practices. But can you also just quickly speak to the human costs of stigmatizing people in faith crisis? You know, the way that it's affected marriages, mixed faith marriages, what it's done to encourage LGBT people to be celibate or enter into mixed orientation marriages, and then the porn and the masturbation shame and what that's done to youth. Can you just talk about sort of anecdotally and clinically what the, what the ca. What the costs you've seen are that also inform your passion and your advocacy?

Natasha Helfer [00:47:06] Yeah, well, the costs are dire. You know, the costs are dire. There are some things that I can speak to kind of from the top of my head statistically. Like, for example, we know that gay and lesbian and bisexual members of our community who do not have an affirming community, which our community is not considered affected. Affirming. I'm sorry, but if you say we love you, but you can't really be yourself, that is not considered an affirming community from clinical perspective. So anyway, so those people run a risk of three to five times the rate of national kind of suicide rates. That is dramatic. And here in Utah, I know that we saw a spike that has been documented, especially by the Mama Dragons association, where after the policy of what I consider a very tragic and kind of rogue policy that was considered doctrine for a minute in our church history, we saw a spike of suicidal issues here in this. In this state. So that. That is. That weighs very heavy. I take that very seriously. I mean, sure, you can talk about how, well, maybe we'll. We'll get there someday, or we progress along the way, and we do, and we have. But there are body counts along the way, and those body counts show up in my office every day before they become body counts. And I'm trying desperately to keep them, some of these people, alive, as are so many of my colleagues who do this work along my side. Just because I talk about These things publicly doesn't mean that there aren't hundreds of mental health clinicians who would agree with many of the positions I'm talking about here, who serve our community day after day and who are members themselves. So if you're a transgender person in our community, that is extremely non affirming to transgender folks. You run seven to nine times the risk of suicide. So this is something we need to take seriously. This is not something that we can comfortably sit back and play the God trump card and think that we understand something as divine and amazing and expansive as a God figure and think we've got it all figured out. That is arrogant. And that arrogance and that non humility that we are called to as an LDS people is not infiltrating the top leadership because the fruit is rotten, it's rotting. And we have very good scriptural reference that the fruit needs to be good as a signal to us that, oh, what we're doing is correct. Oh, I'm planting the seed correctly, I'm fertilizing it correctly. If the fruit grows, when the fruit rots, we need to take action. We need to take pause. We need to be humble. And, and I know, I understand that, that, you know, we've had a lot of rhetoric about intellectuals and I'm sure a lot of people see me as super prideful and oh, who does she think she is to, you know, lecture on these things? But I'm not talking about this from pride. I don't not. This isn't about pride. This is about like, go to this, go to this conference, read these papers, look at the journal articles, get educated, talk to 500 different sex therapy professionals and listen to what they'll tell you. That's not, that's not me saying, oh, I'm proud. And I have a really unique idea that I think should win over. These aren't even my ideas. I'm just kind of like a, a communicator, you know, a translator of sorts. Um, so I, I'm frustrated with that because I know that that's oftentimes how I'm going to be characterized. And I'm, I'm guessing that's probably going to come up on Sunday, that I'm going to be called out on my, on being prideful and not humble enough. But I believe that all the good principles we were taught as LDS kids in primary, our organization needs to be doing those things too. Right? So, like when President Oaks, who, you know, I respect a lot of the things that he says, but when he says something like our church does not apologize. I'm like, that's not what we were taught. That's like a primary principle, right? And I think people and families and organizations all need to rely on these really beautiful principles that we have of humility and patience and seek understanding and empathy and love one another first before we get caught up in kind of dogmatic arguments that really have not served our community well. So that's some of it we do know, even through BYU research that was recently done, I forget the name of the gentleman, but basically that people in the LDS community do suffer more shame and more distress due to very rigid understandings about human sexuality, like pornography viewing, et cetera. I have seen a lot of marriages end in divorce. I don't know what the statistics are necessarily, this is anecdotal, but a lot of marriages end in divorce or have years of very deep, profound distress due to the narrative that in a sense, that in a heterosexual couple the female is supposed to be kind of the porn police and the male is supposed to be the repentant, naughty little boy. That dynamic ruins sexual intimacy, relational intimacy, and marital health. And that distress has been just rampant in my office and oftentimes with just some, some different framings and some different ideas and even using gospel principles that they believe in. Because I don't push my gospel principles on people. I ask them what their gospel principles are. I ask them what values they have and how they could use the resource of their religion and spirituality as, as a tool to help them with some of the relational issues. And I would do that. If they were Catholic or Jewish or if they were an atheist couple, I would say, well, what kinds of values or ideas do you have about being, you know, a good human to kind of elicit some of those conversations? So that's very distressing. And I'm telling you, the thing that really has just broken my heart are all these youth. You know, how many adolescents have I seen that? I don't know why I'm crying now because really all of these things are worthy of crying. So many adolescents literally self harming, literally cutting themselves because they don't understand why every month they have the drive to masturbate, which is like a drive to eat. I mean, my goodness, grief, what are we doing to our youth. And being held accountable by, you know, these arbitrary worthiness interviews that don't even match from stake to stake, don't even match from ward to ward, and have huge implications on whether or not these kids can go on missions, whether or not they can serve and pass the sacrament, whether or not they can go on their temple trip with their friends. So kids learn very quickly that either they're going to be in a continual relationship of confession and shame, or they're going to keep their business private and they're going to start a relationship with secrecy that goes very internal, which will affect then their relationship with their. Their husband or wife in dramatic ways in their sexual lives moving forward. We are causing sexual harm, which causes marital harm in a community where we value marriage, where we value family, where we value the ideas like the atonement and grace, and yet we really stink at practicing some of those things.

John Dehlin [00:55:28] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for so beautifully conveying the human cost of. Of these policies. You're not just whistling Dixie. You're not just, like you say, trying to be prideful and prove a point or show that you're better. You're literally trying. You're on the front lines like the Red Cross, trying to save lives, bandage the wounded, prevent more deaths, save marriages and families that need to be saved. That's. That's what you're doing.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:59] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [00:56:00] And like I've said before, this isn't really about me. This isn't really about Natasha Helfer. This is about clinicians, clinicians cleaning up the bloody mess that we are leaving in the wake of our religious orthodoxy. You know, when we're rigid in our ability to really put into practice beautiful concepts and precepts that we have within our Mormon theology. It's unnecessary. It's unnecessary. I feel like we're in the trenches asking for help, like, stop, somebody, please. Like, pass the bandages. And they. There's lots of bandages, but nobody. Nobody's getting them to us. It's an unfair position for us as clinicians to be in. And. And we suffer too, right. Because there is this thing called. I want to say secondary trauma, but there's a better word in the clinical language. Do you remember it, John? It's. Somebody will probably share with me what the word is. But we're actually, you know, trained as professionals that we need to do a lot of self care because it is not easy to sit across the room with serious pain and agony day after day after day of your professional life. There's a lot of burnout in my profession in general. And then when we see these unnecessary. There's already, like, life is hard enough, right? Like, even if we had sexual health, spot on. We're still gonna have depression. We're still gonna have, you know, anxiety disorders. We're still gonna have, you know, Personality disorders. Life is hard enough without us adding unnecessary tragedy to the mix. And we are the ones cleaning that mess up day after day after day. And many times I just had one of my providers, like, you know, Sarah Hugh Zebawa. She is just. She is just a gentle soul. She is. I don't know if I've ever met somebody just as. Just genuinely loving as, as this woman. And she takes a lot of. She specializes specifically in LGBTQ teens and the amount of time she spends talking with parents who are petrified they're going to lose their kid to suicide,

Professional Burnout and Public Advocacy

Margi Dehlin [00:58:24] talking

Natasha Helfer [00:58:24] to LDS leaders, trying to educate them about how they can offer more safe spaces for our youth and our community. I have seen her take many hours of unprof unpaid time for her professional services, trying to reach local resources for people who are desperate. It's not right.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] And then it's hard enough, it's excruciating to be, to try to be a healer in this space, to try and be a therapist, to try and support and then instead of having the church celebrate you, promote you, send you to all the firesides, to efy, to Education Week, to Thrive Time for Women or whatever it's called. You know, basically instead of the church celebrating and using you to heal, they're excommunicating you as a thank you for the messes you've given your life to try and clean up.

Natasha Helfer [00:59:36] Yes, and I'll talk about that more later with some of the, some of the bullet points in the letter. But I don't need the LDS community to make money. I have so many specializations now. I could probably make more money and have better benefits if I just walked into an ob GYN clinic and said I'm here to treat vaginismus and, you know, I'd have a job like that. I don't need the LDS community to make a living. I have created much professional respect all over the country and I could get a job, I'm sure making more money than I do now. Much more money, actually. What's heartbreaking about this is that I do believe the LDS community needs people like me. And one of the hardest things about this is that when a church who refuses to accept science, and this is any church, our church is included and discredits the people that can most help that community. Who that really affects is the community. Because then they will not access resources or trust resources that are in their best benefits and that will create the standards, you know, the best practice standards. They will instead trust sources that act in unethical ways, which we have a huge problem here in Utah. I can't tell you the amount of sexual treatment centers here in Utah, addiction treatment centers that are not based in evidence based practice and that are causing more harm than good, but they are trusted by the community because those LDS therapists tend to be bishops in the community or have other callings, many of them male. And so there's that trust that they just get because they're a member of the church in good standing instead of really thinking about is this person clinically qualified to treat what. I'm coming to this room for such an important point.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] And the only thing I can, the only way I can explain the Church coming after you, the only way I can make sense of it is that their membership model, their, their devotion model, their model for member allegiance maybe too often is rooted in, in sexual shame, that the, the church needs its members to need the church. And the only way to do that is to make the members feel like they're broken and like they need the church to heal them. And so you're messing with that model because if people feel whole and if they don't feel intense guilt and shame from childhood until adulthood, then maybe they won't need the church as much, feel as committed to the church, feel as devoted to the Church. I can't, I literally can't do the math to figure out why they would be coming after you other than that you're threatening their. What they depend on for member devotion, which is guilt and shame. And I'm not expecting you to comment on that. I just, I don't know how else

Natasha Helfer [01:02:42] to make sense of it. I mean, I think that, I mean, I don't know. We. It's hard to know why humans act the way they do. I do know that tribal dynamics are strong. I know that tribes usually do better when there's conformity within the tribe. So when there isn't conformity, it can feel uncomfortable and it can feel difficult. And so those are kind of just basic human behaviors that we kind of understand in the field of psychology and sociology that can keep people, like I said, kind of micromanaging each other. My personal belief is that everything you just said, I would say maybe from a subconscious narrative is more than likely true. I don't know that leaders are waking up every morning saying, oh, I can't wait to just sexually shame everybody so that they stay in the church. I think that our leaders in general are good, well intentioned, loving people who volunteer immense amounts of time serving their community and more than Likely, except for, you know, I think every community has bad apples and there are groomers and pedophiles and things like that amongst our leaders as well. But for the most part, our leaders are phenomenal people trying to do what they think is right and who are also under this model that they should trust, you know, a priesthood authority over a clinical authority in some of these matters. And that's the part, you know, it's like, I just want everybody to stay in their lane. And if I started talking about, well, you know, God spoke to me and you know, I had a revelation and I think the whole church should do this or this or that. Yeah, please call me out on that. That's. That's not my lane.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:23] Right.

Natasha Helfer [01:04:23] I'm not a theologian. I'm not, you know, in our church, I'm not a priesthood leader, but I am a clinician. So I am asking them to stay in their lane because they don't have the hours and, and I mean, immense hours of experience and education that I have to be able to speak to these matters.

John Dehlin [01:04:44] Amen. So maybe if you want, let's turn to your interactions with your ecclesiastical leaders as it relates to your advocacy and clinical practice, you know, wherever that kind of starts.

Timeline of Interactions with Church Leadership

Natasha Helfer [01:04:58] Yeah. So I would like to go through the timeline because I know people are curious about these kinds of things in our community. And I, I just, my goal in all of this is not really to attack the church or to attack any particular leader, but I will be honest and transparent about who the actors are and who's involved and the communications that I've had because I think transparency and non secrecy is an important part of any community. That's a mental health practice. Right. So I will try to be as genuinely and sincerely honest as I can. So. So one of the things that really happened in my trajectory as a member of the church, not in my professional life, and I've spoken to this before, is that when my daughter at the time, who now identifies as gender non binary, but at the time she was in young women's and was the Miami primary, the Miami president, sorry, and was called in and basically released in a fairly, I'd say, harsh and disciplinary form because of her involvement in her gay Straight alliance group at her high school, and also because of her, I think she had made a few posts on her Facebook account about supporting the ordain women movement, which was happening at the time with Kate Kelly and other important feminist Mormon figures in our community. So that was devastating to her. Devastating. And in that process, they had actually Broken. One of the requests that I had made, which was not to have my daughter in a one to one closed door interview session. And when I was finally called into that meeting, my child had been in that room for over an hour with our bishop at the time trying to defend her ideas and why she was still very much committed to wanting to be the Miami president. And you know, when you see a kid of yours who is just so excited to have a calling, so excited to fulfill her responsibilities, which she took so seriously at the time, be devastated in that way when you see your own child hurting. I mean, I can't even imagine what some of our mama and papa dragons have been through. I'm a mama dragon, but kind of in more serious types of issues even than being released as a Miami president. It was devastating to me to have my community, my leadership, the ward that I was in serving week after week harm my child. That was devastating. I mean, I literally probably cried for weeks thinking about that. And at that point, that was a turning point for my kid. And they no longer want to be associated with the church. They have developed a very, you know, just adversarial approach, see it as very harmful and part of a toxic and emotionally abusive system that they are now still recovering from. And to have my kid have that narrative about. A church environment that I took her to, that I raised her in, and that I trusted people to help and instead they were harmed in this way was astronomically devastating. So at that point we went from one week being completely active callings, you know, going to church kids and boys and scouting programs to taking a sabbatical because there was no way that I could ask them to return to this place where they now felt othered, unwelcome, judged and quite frankly demoted. You know, it was pretty clear that they were never going to be able to have the same experiences as the other kids in the group because of their identity and their positions on in regards to social justice of all things. This kid of mine is like phenomenal. Church lost a phenomenal child of God who will advocate for any marginalized person and give their shirt off their back to anyone. So if you're going to call me to repentance for speaking sexual truth, I call the church to repentance for damaging my child. And damaging our family. Because it was very interesting. You know, I expected, I mean I had been, I can't tell you how many countless hours I've served my ward communities always, you know, doing all the things we do, right, the casseroles and the Callings and the teaching and the preparing lessons. And I thought, well, you know, within a week or two, they're probably going to notice that I'm not there anymore and here will come the, the brigade and they'll. And so I'm going to have to prepare to answer all these questions and why we're taking a break at this time. And it was crickets, crickets, which that was devastating in of itself that they knew we were hurting, they knew we were struggling and we were just abandoned. That is not a ministering church. We're not doing our job as a ministering church if that's what we do to people that can't feel like they really fit in, although they want to. We need, we, we can, and we need to do much better than that. So that was a second devastation for me that really I felt discarded. And so, you know, I just kind of went on and, and I really never returned to full activity in that water stake. So that was like six years ago. Six years ago. I did return for some seasons, I would say a few months here and there because my second kid was interested in going at times. He had a lot of his Mormon friends and, you know, loves a lot of our beautiful ideas like I do and eternal families, you know, and all these things that he was excited about. So I supported him and we went back to church for seasons, but never really full activity again after that event. And in that entire six years, I had maybe two conversations with the newly, I want to say elected, but that's not the right word. The new bishop who was very kind and who listened to. He was the first person that was willing to listen to kind of my pain around some of these things. He was, he, he had a gift of being kind and kind of gently, you know, saying, well, I'm not sure the church can agree with you on that, Sister Parker. Right. But, but, you know, I would love to have more information about how we can help support our, our gay, lesbian and bisexual people, you know, so I was able to like, offer the Family Acceptance Project resources, which is an excellent resource, by the way, by Caitlyn Ryan, Dr. Caitlyn Ryan. So, so he had that humility and that kind of sense of balance between trying to manage a member in his ward like me, but also willing to learn and willing to listen. And I really, really appreciate that and felt his love. And I believe he's still the bishop now and he is part of this process, but I know that this isn't being driven by him. So I don't have anything negative to say about my Kansas bishop.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:00] So.

Natasha Helfer [01:13:01] But. But I. I just want to say that in that whole time that I lived in Wichita, Kansas, I never once was called in to have a dialogue, to share concerns, to say, hey, we're. We're kind of concerned about the kinds of things you're writing or we've noticed several posts that we're uncomfortable with or. Can you explain what your position is on this or that? Not once did that happen while I lived in Wichita, Kansas. And because they weren't ministering to our family, they also didn't really know what was happening with our family. So it was also during this last two years that my husband and I are going through, you know, our own challenges and our own marital, you know, circumstances and have decided to separate and then formally divorce, which we're still in the process of. Of, thank goodness. We're doing that in an amicable way. And we still have each other's backs. And not that I want to totally romanticize that because there has been a few F bombs and a lot of struggle in that. So I don't want to say, oh, it was peachy keen, but we have landed in a space where we still very much love and respect each other and have each other's backs. And he will actually be one of my witnesses at this council. Sorry, on my behalf. That's a whole other story, right? Like Andy and I agree that this whole sexual health messaging, even though it didn't start with my own story, like, I wasn't motivated by it to be an advocate because of my own story, as I have gone along, I recognize in many ways I have also been wounded and Andy has been wounded and how a lot of those wounds affected our marriage in very detrimental ways that we were not able to recover from as a marital unit. That's its own story. But he will be there with me for. On my behalf. What was I talking about? Oh, my gosh. I was talking about. Oh, yeah, the timeline. Right. So then. So in that decision, I decided that I would move to Utah, to Salt Lake City, Utah. So we bought a home in October of 2019, and we. We moved here. Me and the younger kids moved here in December of 2019. And up until then, nothing. Nothing. I had not heard anything. Now, to give them maybe some credit, it's not like I informed them that I was moving. I didn't inform them that I was mo. At the same time, they seem to know everything else I'm doing on social media. So I'm guessing somebody figured out That I was no longer in the ward or stake boundaries. So. And I remember. So it's interesting that it just happens to be that the bishop of my new ward is my next door neighbor, also a lovely guy and family, and I enjoy them a lot. He once told me, well, where are your records? I was like, well, I don't know, go get them, you know, So I had kind of said, yeah, get my records. I don't know why they haven't transferred yet yet. Maybe because they don't even know I've moved. So I was very open to my records being transferred and. And I even went to church several times. It was interesting because the timing with COVID was very much a part of this whole story, because I moved in December. Well, February, March, we're starting to shut down. And so I had gone to church a few times before that, thinking, well, maybe I can start anew. I would like to see if I'm a good fit in this congregation, and I would like to get to know my neighbors and I would love to maybe re. Engage right with. With my church community in ways that I hadn't felt comfortable doing in witch. So I did that, but probably only went. I think I went three times before everything shut down. So, yeah, this last year has been difficult, right, for all of us. I mean, we've all been through a lot of. A lot of shiz in this. In this whole year, a lot of things that I had expected to build and be a part of everything shut down. I just kind of. I kind of isolated a lot. I think I went back into just my whole. Which is telehealth, which I do well, you know, so I can be in front of my computer and be in my home and kind of isolate. We were all isolating. I know that I was going through, you know, my own depression and anxiety symptoms, just through life circumstances as well. It was a hard time. And so the first time I was ever reached out to happened to be the same week that things were really dire in the travel arena. So my child that I had talked about before, previously known as Isabella, now known as Rowan, they were visiting my mother's home country in Argentina. They had gone for about a year and right as they were supposed to return in April, but things were shutting down, you know, and there were travel bans and Andy and I got really scared. So we were, you know, grappling with getting them back home right during the week that for the first time, my Kansas bishop reached out to me and they, you know, he said, well, I Know that there's a lot of changes and things. So this would have been like, I think, February or March of 2020, 2020, that he first reached out. But there are some things that, you know, President Daley and I want to talk to you about, and we would appreciate an opportunity to. To discuss some of our concerns. He must have mentioned something about concerns, and I was like, I'm overwhelmed. I'm trying to get my kid home from Argentina. Like, this is a really bad time. So. So I just said, you know, can you contact me some other time? I'm trying to manage my travel arrangements. We're going through this divorce. I'm trying to get my kids and figure out their schooling situations. I mean, please call me back. I also want to mention in all of this that these things that they're listing that they're grumpy with me about, there's nothing new. Like, all of the things that are listed that we'll talk about if we have time is, are things that. Positions and. And situations I've been in for at least five or six years. So there's nothing new that has happened in. In my mind as far as my positions or stances.

John Dehlin [01:19:43] I'd say 10, 15 years.

Natasha Helfer [01:19:45] Yeah. I'm trying to think of all the issues, right. Like, all of the issues, like masturbation was definitely, like, almost 10, you know, maybe seven, eight years ago.

John Dehlin [01:19:53] She doesn't mind, so.

Natasha Helfer [01:19:55] That's right. So it's been a long time that I've been basically sharing very similar ideas. So at the time, I was just like, if you have concerns, that's fine, but they can wait, because they've obviously waited for a long time already. So we're kind of in a crisis situation here in my personal family. So. And then I kind of forgot about it. And then, sure enough, they reached out to me again, this time together, the bishop and President Daleyza. I want to say, I don't totally remember, but fall. Fall. Ish. September of 2020, somewhere around there. And.

John Dehlin [01:20:30] But I kind of just want to be clear. You moved here to Salt Lake City, what, in December?

Natasha Helfer [01:20:37] We bought the home in October of 2019. We moved here in December, like, over Christmas break. So just the very end of a

John Dehlin [01:20:43] year and a half ago. Right?

Natasha Helfer [01:20:44] A year and a half ago, almost.

John Dehlin [01:20:45] She's been in Salt Lake City for a year and a half. Half With a primary residence.

Natasha Helfer [01:20:49] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:20:50] In Salt Lake City.

The Stake President's Letter and Charges

Natasha Helfer [01:20:51] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:20:52] Yeah. You just think about, like, hey, can I attend this other ward? You know, in. In LDS Church policy, you can't Even attend another person's ward as an active member, and they say, no, go back to your ward. We. And if. If. If the LDS Church does anything, it enforces geographical boundaries. Right?

Natasha Helfer [01:21:11] Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:11] And it says you only engage in the warden in which you geographically live. And I just want to make it clear. Natasha's lived in Holiday Mill Creek area for a year and a half.

Natasha Helfer [01:21:23] That is correct.

John Dehlin [01:21:24] Okay.

Natasha Helfer [01:21:25] And my bishop next door was aware of that. And I had told him, sure, yes, please get my records. I don't know why they're not here. So all of that had happened a long time ago. So in September now of 2019, I think I may be off by a month or two, they reach out to me again and say, we'd like to talk to you about some of our concerns. And. And so I said, okay. So I had a zoom meeting with them. I immediately felt extremely uncomfortable. Both of them were, in a sense, expressing sadness or, you know, trying to express support for the many changes that had happened in my personal life. And I told them directly, I'm like, I'm sorry, but I don't feel like we have developed the type of relationship together that is required for me to feel comfortable talking to you about my personal distress, which is extremely painful and very hard for me to talk about, even with my closest friends. So I just. I wasn't very comfortable with that. And then they immediately kind of. So then they kind of shifted gears and started talking about some of these concerns that are outlined in. In this letter. But it was very intellectually, like, challenging for me because you have to understand that when you're sitting in front of people that, you know, have authority over you, and you know that they're bringing up professional things, but they're also bringing up personal things, like, how are you doing, Sister Helfer or Sister Parker at the time?

John Dehlin [01:22:55] We love your family.

Natasha Helfer [01:22:57] We love your family. And so you're kind of in that emotional space, but then they're asking you things about your professional stuff, and that's an incongruence that was happening for me that I could not manage very well. And I was very. I could tell I was very emotionally overwhelmed. And. And plus, I was not even sure some of the things that they were bringing up, like, they were bringing up quotes that I had written, and I didn't even know in what context I had written them. And I was like, well. So I asked to pause, and I said, look, if you have concerns which I'm willing to address, can you please at least write them down and prepare Me for what it is that I'm supposed to be kind of defending my positions on or, you know, getting back to you on. So they were willing to do that, and President Daley said, I'll. I'll do that. And we basically hung up and that was the end of that conversation. But they did say in that conversation that they were concerned about my. My desire to be a member of the church. And I did express to them in that conversation as well that my desire to be a member of the church is very strong. So we left it at that. So I guess he drafted a letter with all his concerns. It's dated in November 17, I believe, of 2020. And he must have sent it to me, not via snail mail, but he must have sent it to me to an old email address, because I never received it, as I was kind of just waiting and waiting. And I thought, you know, get. You get busy. Life keeps going. The holidays start going. You know how all. How that crazy time of life is. And I didn't feel like I needed to get back to him. I just figured it might take some time to gather all that information. So.

John Dehlin [01:24:39] Plus, he's not your stake president.

Natasha Helfer [01:24:40] Plus, he's not my stake president. Plus, it's not like I am super excited about doing this whole process anyway, so, anyway, it just. It just went on. He must have sent it to an old email in February, February 13th of 2021 now, so. So he wrote the letter in November, which I was not aware of. It's February 13th. He sends me a Facebook message through Facebook messenger saying, hey, I've been trying to get ahold of you. Of course they have my phone number. They have. I mean, I don't know why it's so hard to get ahold of me, but everybody knows how to get ahold of me somehow. But for some reason, they couldn't get ahold of me. But so he said, I've been trying, you know, I sent you this letter, and there's been no response. And I'm like, like, what letter? I haven't gotten it. So I sent him my correct email, and sure enough, that same day, he sends me his letter of concerns within a week. So on February 27, maybe that's a little bit longer than a week, I wrote a response back. And I say that because in the. In the disciplinary letter and the one where they. Sorry. Where they're calling me to a membership council, it makes it sound like they wrote to me in November and I didn't get back to them until February. So I feel like that's a bit of a disingenuous type of caricature, like I was ignoring them and I wasn't. So I took a week to 10 days to get back to him. And I thought about it and this is when I started to think kind of like what you're saying. Why am I talking to you anymore? I haven't talked to you in years. You never reached out to me once in your entire stake presidency. What's it called? I don't know, process. So if there are concerns, and now I know kind of what they are, can you please transfer my records? And I think I wrote a polite letter. I mean, I'm happy to read it or share it, where I said, I, you know, you really haven't been my stake president for almost a year and a half now. I would prefer to talk to local people and get to know them and they're welcome to ask me any questions. I wish you well. And please transfer my records.

John Dehlin [01:26:47] That.

Natasha Helfer [01:26:47] Please transfer my records. And, and there's some other complications there too, because he, he works or had worked with my husband and their profession. This is another issue in Mormonism. Right. I'm sorry, but this, this intersection between professional relationships and ecclesiastical relationships are tricky because you can have, for example, your bishop be your boss. You can have your boss be somebody who you need to discipline, you know, discipline, take their membership away. And you're kind of a peon in their company. Right. I mean, there are some really weird kind of conflict of interest type of issues that happen. Plus I don't know how companies would feel about knowing that they're, you know, leaders or executives or, or, or just employees. What, sometimes what they're doing in their spare time is actually, you know, is religiously like disciplining people that most of these companies these days have very serious non discrimination clauses against. Right. So you're not supposed to discriminate against people. And I understand that we live in a country where we take religious freedoms very seriously to separate those kinds of things, but I'm just saying this makes things very messy. So this particular stake president was a boss of my husband's at one time was still involved fairly intimately, kind of in their general jurisdiction. I mean, and that was all happening when my husband lost his job last year due to Covid. So I'm not saying that he was directly involved in that. I'm also saying that there are complicated feelings about that and which interfere with my safety and my comfort of actually meeting with this man in this ecclesiastical capacity anyway. So that's an added complication and you know, it's just. Yeah, so it, that's, that's, that's concerning to me and also not just for me but in our community. So I wrote down all of those concerns. Well, let me go back to the timeline. So yeah, so he.

John Dehlin [01:29:03] Can I jump in just really quickly?

Margi Dehlin [01:29:05] Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:29:05] I'm getting for our listeners that aren't Mormon and we have many. One thing you also need to know is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has what's called a strengthening the Church members Committee or cmc. And what this committee does is like the CIA, like the FBI, like the kgb. They gather files on members who, you know, who's, who they have concerns about. So they have people paid at church headquarters apologists as well, you know, through organizations like FairMormon and others that monitor members online behavior. Their Twitter posts, their Instagram posts, their Facebook posts, their podcast episodes and they, they print out and save this correspondence. And once they've amassed a file that's big enough and of concerning enough, they'll send these records to a stake president and a bishop. They did this with me. They've done it with all the, you know, former people that have been excommunicated over the past 10 or 20 years. And, and so you know the types of charges that Natasha's former stake president would have had against her. He would have been given a file with all this information that had been collected by spies. I don't know else how else to describe it. And the stake president and or bishop would have been informed by area authorities or general authorities. This is a person who's a problem. You know, it's, you know, they, they want to do this dual dance of it's always a local decision so the church headquarters can never be held accountable. But they also make it clear that the person in question is a person who's a problem that needs to be dealt with. And so that's how these things sort of happen. So this stake president would have been getting heat from his area authority or from general authorities. Why haven't you dealt with Natasha yet? What are you going to do with Natasha? We've given you all the records. Why haven't you held the disciplinary council yet? And so that's kind of what's happening behind the scenes. And I've, they've shared with me the recent church policies that basically are explicit. A stake president is not to move forward with a disciplinary council and, or excommunication, especially with the high profile person without approval from an area or general authority. And so that's all kind of just information behind the scenes that, that you might want to know, to know what's going on in the stake president's, you know, life.

Natasha Helfer [01:31:42] And I'm just going to say, as a Mormon woman, I have no idea because we are not included in these types of leadership decisions. So I have no idea what of all of that is true or not true. I'm going to assume it's true. I think John usually has pretty good sources and some of these things are mentioned in the bishop's handbook. I've looked at them closely these last few weeks to see if protocol was being followed correctly. I would imagine there's more than likely some truth to that, but I'm not here to really comment on that. I'm. All I know is what's happening, what I have in front of my, what has been communicated to me, what has been expressed and the players at least that are involved with me personally and intimately. So if that's the case, then, and you know, it is sad that, I mean, I'm calling out all the names, right? And if he's the only one that's being called out because he plays that role, at the same time, I think that's something that stake presidents and bishops should consider when they take these roles that they may be having to be used as, you know, tools or whatever you want to call that, to maybe do the bidding per se of other authorities that don't necessarily get called out publicly. So I don't know, I can't really comment on all of that. That. All right, so then, so then, so I write that letter, please transfer my records. And I'm thinking that's a no brainer. Like, you know, yeah, I'm thinking, of course, you know, he'll probably read that and go, yeah, you're right, you know, like, why do I want to deal with you anyway?

John Dehlin [01:33:25] So there's also just this element of face to face. Like when I was excommunicated, I was called in for a disciplinary council in the first time I met the stake president. But at least we got to meet face to face and get to know each other and talk about our concerns. With my former stake president, we had been able to have lots of lengthy conversations and in fact that ended up in him deciding not to hold a disciplinary council against me. And so I believe that it's really important that, you know, if it's your eternal salvation, the, the persistence of your eternal marriage, hypothetically the union of your family in the celestial kingdom. Really your eternal salvation or your condemnation to the equivalent of Mormon hell. You think you wouldn't do that over mail, snail mail or email or text or zoom. Like you'd think you'd say no, that we do this in person. It's personal. Let's get you with your new stake president. Let's see if anything's changed. Let's get know you better. Let's give you guys time to get to know each other and maybe, maybe he can even counsel you and help you, you know, find a compromise where you can do what you do, but the church can have its interests protected. Like there are all so many reasons why this sort of thing should not be done by zoom or text or email. This should be a personal, Christlike, pastoral, personal eye to eye, face to face multi month process versus sort of some zoom, text, email thing. In my opinion.

Natasha Helfer [01:35:04] I would agree with all of that. This feels like a bad breakup through text. Right. Or something that's very confusing with somebody

John Dehlin [01:35:11] you've never really talked to.

Natasha Helfer [01:35:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:13] Professional way.

Natasha Helfer [01:35:15] Right. So I thought, I really did think that that was a no brainer. But I thought on the chance that he's going to continue to say no, I want you know, this is going to be dealt with here in Kansas. I thought the next communication I would get from him was that, no, sorry, Sister Helfer, you know, we're going to have to deal with this together. So if you could really please take my past letter seriously and answer some of those concerns and let's have a conversation about it. That's what I assumed would happen next. One of those two scenarios and so on. So he has this letter dated March 21st. So I wrote that letter saying please refer, please transfer my records on February 27th. On March 21st, he wrote a letter to me. It's dated March 21st. But again, I did not receive it on March 21st. How I first got contact with this letter was a hand delivery to my personal home on Easter morning. This is how I received this letter. And I'm sorry, but the best I can say about that is that it was tacky. The worst that I can say about that, it's incredibly spiritually wounding on a day as sacred Easter. They didn't know if I would have family. They didn't know anything about my circumstances that day. It's a holiday, a sacred religious holiday of all things. And that was what? April 4th, April 5th? I can't remember when Easter was anymore. I did mention I'm sleep deprived. Right. So. So they Hand delivered. That. And this is the first time, and you know, the first sentence is the STAKE Presidency is holding a membership council in your behalf. So there's no, there's no, hey, you know, we're inviting you or we're,

Reading and Responding to the Formal Accusations

Margi Dehlin [01:37:15] we'd

Natasha Helfer [01:37:16] like to know this is happening. Like, we're holding it. And the council will be held on Sunday, April 19, April 11. So at that point, I received it on Sunday. This was going to happen next Sunday with no opportunity to have ever had a conversation about these issues in a clear headed, kind of professional way.

John Dehlin [01:37:38] Face to face.

Natasha Helfer [01:37:39] Face to face, any, anything.

John Dehlin [01:37:40] And you're in Utah and I'm in Utah.

Natasha Helfer [01:37:42] So. And this is going to be held in the. Yeah, the Derby Kansas Stake Center. Right. This council will consider your repeated, clear and public opposition to the church, its doctrine, its policies and its leaders. So again, I'm confused. If it's been so repeated and so clear, why haven't I ever been talked to about this prior to getting a letter that, to your point, has huge implications for me spiritually. So he, he continues. As you know, your bishop and I have been trying for some time to meet with you to discuss these concerns. So again, I feel like that's, that's not really a fair statement. I mean, there were like two attempts, one in the middle of COVID one where I asked for clarification. It sounds like they've been trying for months and months to. And I've been ignoring them. So I, I did not appreciate that charact. And after our last discussion, you requested something in writing so that you might clearly understand the concerns raised. That is true. This was provided in my letter dated November 8, 2020. That's true. He dated it on 2020, but that was not delivered on 20, you know, November 8, you responded by letter dated February 27, 2021. So again, I feel like that's like he's trying to paint the picture that he contacted me in November and I'm just now getting back to him in February, which I got back to him in 10 days. Again, when this is all very stressful, I would have been actually in my right to not contact them back in three months because just thinking about all this is very stressful. But I got back to them in 10 days or whatever that was. Were you requesting that your membership record. Oh, you responded by letter in February requesting that your membership record be moved. That's true. However, after conferring with the stake president where you now live, so he reached out to my local leader, we have decided never met Right. Who I've never met, talked to or talked to. We have decided that the council should be held in the Derby Kansas stake. Your membership record will be retained in this stake until the council is complete. So, you know, that's, that's fairly difficult. I mean, one, there's been very little conversation to. This council is happening in a week. So am I supposed to try to travel in a week? Am I, I have a full time practice. I have two underage children I'm raising as a single parent. I have schedules. I ha. I mean, my life is, is crazy already. Without adding this to the mix. He says you are invited to attend. Oh, thank you. Thank you. That I'm invited to attend the council to give my response. If you cannot, too bad. It doesn't say too bad.

John Dehlin [01:40:42] Sorry.

Natasha Helfer [01:40:43] If you cannot or do not wish to attend in person, which I, I agree that people don't have to attend these things, but it says if you cannot, which I could not, I could not make it there in one way week. You may provide a written statement if you want a written statement. I mean, I've got 500,000 written statements everywhere, sharing kind of a lot of my positions and my views and so. And you may also provide written statements from persons who could provide relevant information. Okay. So that was helpful to know. You may invite such persons to speak to the council in your behalf if approved in advance by the stake president. So am I supposed to get people to be willing to either travel or gather? How am I supposed to do this in a week? Getting people and approval on top of it? Like he has to approve it. We can't just show up. There's a whole process. Like I was so overwhelmed when I received this letter. It felt like it was impossible for me to even to try to represent myself correctly. You may also invite the ward Relief Society president to be present and provide support. So I don't know who my Relief Society president is because like I explained before, I haven't been active in my Bel Air ward for a long time. I do appreciate that comment. I mean that's, that's some of the feminist movement changes that have been happening that used to not be something that they would allow.

John Dehlin [01:42:27] I've never heard that.

Natasha Helfer [01:42:29] I'm guessing that these are some of the changes they're making to make women feel safer in these types of meetings. Because if you think about a woman in front of three men or 15 men or however many men they have in these councils, I have heard many stories over the years of how intimidating and just again when you're, you know, if you understand anything about just basic psychology, the fight, flight, freeze response. So when you're intimidated, it's very easy to. To become like, kind of frozen or anxious and not be able to really think clearly in those kinds of situations. So I am glad that they are making that a. A possibility for female members of our church. However, for me, that's not helpful. I don't have a relationship with a Relief Society president that that would be able to, in essence, quote, unquote, provide support. Anyone who attends must be willing to comply with the respectful nature of the council, including its procedures and confidentiality. Legal counsel and supporters beyond those referred to above may not be present. So, you know, if you're not. If you're not, in essence, consent. And I asked a little bit more about that. I asked more about, so what does that mean? What are the qualifications? And he wrote back and told me that it means a member in good standing. So I'm assuming that to mean a member who hasn't been disciplined. He. I did ask if it meant temple recommend holders, and that was not the case case. So it's, I guess, a member who hasn't been disfellowshipped or removed, as they call it now. I'm not really sure about all their new language. I don't know. The rest of it is kind of personal. He understands that this is a difficult time for me and my family. I don't know if I need to read the rest of this. I mean, I'm willing to share it. It's not a confidential letter. It has, you know, the letterhead of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints on it. And that's been my experience. So. So then in the timeline, I just want to say that I spent really well. The first thing I said is, like, wait a minute. I was planning to travel to Kansas anyway, so this following weekend, it's my son's prom weekend and track. And I had planned, you know, several weeks ago to spend that time with my son, Which is already really painful, right? That we've been separated as a family during his senior year. Nicholas, if you ever listen to this, I love you, but. So I was excited. You know, that was supposed to be a fun, pleasant weekend with my kid and with Andy and, you know, just enjoying our time together. And instead now, you know, I'm coming with all of this emotional and spiritual happiness where I'm supposed to act professional, right. And have professional ideas. It's just very overwhelming. So, yeah. So that. So they. They they respected that request. So I appreciated that, that they said, okay, since you're going to be here, we'll move it to April 18th. So it's, it's this coming Sunday. What's today? Wednesday, Tuesday. I don't even know what day it is.

John Dehlin [01:45:54] April 13th.

Natasha Helfer [01:45:55] So they're gonna have it on Sunday, this coming Sunday on the 18th at 7:30pm in the Derby stake.

John Dehlin [01:46:04] Can I jump in really quick?

Natasha Helfer [01:46:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:46:05] One thing that's a little bit weird is this double bind of only allowing members of good standing to testify. But then what are the personal risks, the social risks and even the ecclesiastical risks of a member in good standing testifying on your behalf? Like it's nice that they would offer that, but you know, I, one member of my ward, Mike Cuban, testified at our, my disciplinary council and I just saw that as a huge act of courage because what happens when you go back to your warden stake after you've testified on behalf of someone that ends up getting excommunicated, indicated you're now forever associated with an apostate because you testified on their behalf? What type of church life does that afford you in your wards and stakes going forward? Is that mark put on you? Is there a social mark put on you? And then, you know, so, so that's a double bind that they're putting quote, members in good standing in.

Natasha Helfer [01:47:09] Right. In other words, if I had professionals or ethic people on the ethics board, because I do think, think that I'm being called in for really that balance between ethical professional standards versus my own personal religious beliefs or attorneys. So if I wanted like an expert in ethics from the AMFT board or something, they would not allow that because, you know, they're not a member of the church. So yes, I agree. It's like we're only willing to listen to kind of the perspective that usually tends to agree with us. And that's problematic. However, I will say that. So, so back to the timeline. So I felt like I had that first week to see if there was any way that this could be stopped because as I mentioned in the beginning, I just thought this is going to be harmful. This is going to be harmful to me, my family, it's going to be harmful to my community. So I reached out to many people, many people which I'd rather actually keep confidential because they, I think put their, you know, they spent their time and energy trying to help and reach out to people, leaders in the church, et cetera. I also wrote letters to my area president in Kansas, like I mentioned, and here locally Explaining many of the issues that I felt were problematic about having this particular person preside at this meeting, including the work issue and all of that, the conflict of interest. So I heard back from my local stake president, New Comb or New Baum, I forget now. And he just said, well, we welcomed you to the stake. Although I don't know how he can welcome me to the stake when I'm not in the stake. But we have decided he had spoken to Daley and President Daley and said that he agreed with the council happening in Kansas. So that was that. I don't know who else I can reach. So once I realized, and this all took a long time, I mean, I'm waiting for days to hear back and see. And in the meantime I'm like, well, I don't know if I need to start gathering witnesses or support. And this is all happening in Derby, Kansas, where, I mean, I just don't know that many people in that area geographically. And it was going to be hard, right to, to garner the support I would need or the people that I would have wanted to represent it. Even people, members in good standing that I would have wanted to represent this issue. So. So I finally decided yesterday, after pretty much getting a no from all avenues to start asking for letters of support. And I chose to do that publicly because I know that these issues that I'm talking about are communal issues. These are issues that I see coming in my practice and I knew a lot of people would have feelings and ideas about it and you know, ask them for, if they, if they felt comfortable to offer these kinds of letters of support. And that's what I did yesterday. And I will say in just one day the level of respectful and professional letters that have come through because I did make it an option to CC me so I could see what was being shared. If they wanted have been so amazingly powerful to read. I mean, just from clinicians, from doctors, from pediatricians, from mental health professionals, from members, from leaders, bishops, stake presidents, you know, some of them were anonymous like you said, John, because they are worried that they can't speak without facing some level of discipline themselves. But many of them willing to put their membership numbers and you can call me and this is my ward and this is my stake and it has been astronomically amazing. And what I really appreciate about those letters is that they're really not about me. I asked for it not to be about me. I mean, my name is included in some of them and I really appreciate everybody's love and support so far. But this is not about me for the community. You know, many people, we. Many people lose their membership that we never even hear about because they don't talk publicly. And that's a personal tragedy. So that's mine. That's my story. My personal tragedy is separate. This is a communal story. And the literature that's coming in through these letters is about that. It's about how sexual shame is harming and has harm, harmed people. So I'm just astounded, really astounded at the quality. Like a lot of these letters, I'm like, I'm not this smart. I can't speak to these things as well. If Mormonism does one thing well, it's create really well educated social justice people. So I'm really grateful about that. And they are. They're writing in and then I've had amazing support by local people who have said they're willing to travel. I can't imagine some of the money and energy and time that people are spending to be able to be there in one week's notice. Right. Because even though I had two weeks notice now, people just got notified yesterday. So people like Katie Mount from

Margi Dehlin [01:52:45] Marriage on a Tightrope.

Natasha Helfer [01:52:46] Marriage on a Tightrope, which I have partnered with them and love the work I do helping mixed faith couples retain their marriage if at all possible and if it's. It's healthy for them. People like Jody England, who is, you know, just such an advocate for LGBTQ and needy, and one of my providers, Janice Bangler, who is going through vertigo, like pretty bad vertigo, and she's planning on getting on a plane. I'm like, don't do that. That's not good for your mental health. But, you know, she's her own agent and she's doing it, and she's a wonderful speaker for spiritual health, you know, the intersection between mental and spiritual health, and is a wonderful coach that works for my group, Symmetry Solutions. So it has been. Been incredibly touching. As well as people who are not qualified to be witnesses, like, like you, John, you've mentioned that you're going to come and support me and Sam Young is going to come and Clinton, Jenny are the founders of Thrive, which is a wonderful support organization for people who are searching for community after they leave the church. And I have partnered with them as well, as far as helping people have good mental health post religious transition, which is, again, part of my ethical responsibility as a clinician. I love helping Mormons, no matter where they find themselves on the belief spectrum or on the practice spectrum. And I feel like I'M very specialized and good at that particular niche and why I love serving that community. And I feel like we're all still a big family, whether we're out or in. It's like you can't really take the Mormon out of the. Out of the people, and you can't take the people out of the Mormon. Right. So, I mean, it's this. It's this family system that we need to work on. Like I mentioned at the beginning, again, differentiation skills, tolerance for difference, so that we can still enjoy each other's company and love and relationship, even though we may stand not aligned in. In how we see our spiritual or religious beliefs.

John Dehlin [01:55:11] Amen.

Natasha Helfer [01:55:11] So I think that's what's happening, and I feel like we've been here for a long time, and I didn't even get to the whole point of what I was thinking I was going to do tonight.

John Dehlin [01:55:19] So what is it?

Logistics and Rules of the Membership Council

Natasha Helfer [01:55:21] Well, so another thing that was communicated to me today, which I did not realize, is that President Daly told me that I will. Because I was asking about, well, how do we. How do we get approval for the. These particular people who are spending all this time. Like, I don't want to have people buy an airplane ticket and then be told, you're not approved. Like, I have no idea how this works or how timely it is. And so I was asking today, can. Can we get notice so that people who are planning on traveling can know if it's worth their. Their time. Right. To come out? And in that. In the reply, he shared that that's fine, but be aware that you have one out, you have one hour combined for this particular meeting. So that means whatever concerns I'm supposed to address, which, by the way, the list is pretty big. And by the way, this is why I've created like, hundreds and hundreds of hours on my podcasts to be able to educate our community. People who can't afford therapy, people who just need educational resources, leaders who need resources to help, you know, their ward members. That has been really pretty much just an act of love. I have learned a lot along the way. I love interviewing people who, you know, I'm like, well, I wonder what's happening with vaginismus and genital pain. I need to know more about that. So I'll reach out to an expert and they come on the show and they, like, give us this amazing information to our community for free. And, you know, in a sense, that's kind of in my calling. Right? I have given myself my own calling, and I. And I love doing that so it would take me hours and hours to address many of the concerns that they have for me. I guess in a sense I'm saying, well, it's all there. You know, you can listen to that information and educate yourselves. Mormon Sex Info, Mormon, Mormon Mental Health are both podcasts that I host trying to give these resources to the people. But back to this one hour. Yeah, I had a good long cry about that today. After the countless hours that I have given in. How many firesides have I presented at for free? You know how many our, our group Symmetry Solutions. We actually offer free consultation to any LDS ecclesiastical leader if they need help. And many, many leaders have taken us up on that. And I'm so glad. And we give that time freely. I get one hour. With something as tender and precious as whether or not my ordinances will be intact next week. Yeah, I'm. I'm pretty okay saying that this is not, not a. This is not okay. This is not okay. What we do. This type of arbitrary courts that oftentimes are so offensively stated as courts of love. There's. I don't feel loved. I don't feel ministered. I don't feel taken care of or shepherd.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:07] I.

Natasha Helfer [01:59:09] I don't feel those things concern. It feels like, chop, chop, let's get this done. Sure. We'll listen to a few thoughts. It almost feels like the decision has already been made. I, I hope that's not true. I, I really pray and hope that's not true, that there is still room here. For a softening or an understanding or a mutual coming together. And he shares that too. Right at the end the letter, he says, I appreciated in our last meeting hearing you say to Bishop Labram and me that you love the church. I hope we might build on this and work together so that going forward your public opinion reflects and is consistent with your private opinion. So the problem is that last part. My, my public opinion is clinical. My private opinion is my own religious convictions and spirituality. And quite frankly, they don't get to monitor or regulate my clinical positions. And I am very comfortable saying I am a worthy member of this church who wants to retain my membership. And that's really all they need to know about my spirituality to be able to be a member of this church. So it's incredibly wounding to think that, that I get one hour of their time to address something as serious as what, you know, they believe that they have the power to interfere with my eternal ordinances and in a sense, salvation, and that that decision will be made in one Hour. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:00:55] So, yeah, to allow you to, to allow them to present their concerns and then to allow you to adequately respond to the concerns for all the people that might be involved in the decision making process. Process. To have a dialogue and then for you to allow witnesses to speak on your behalf and preferably professional witnesses to educate them about why you have taken the positions you've taken. And, and then to have a deliberation. How do you, how do you do all that in an hour?

Natasha Helfer [02:01:29] Well, and it won't be an hour even, because if I am going to take some of these people up on their, you know, on their, their beautiful, loving offers, maybe I'll get 40 minutes takes away your.

John Dehlin [02:01:41] Your time.

Natasha Helfer [02:01:42] 40 minutes. So I have to choose between my time and that's why I actually decided to. That I would use this time with you if you're still willing to. Hang on. You are a long podcaster, right, John? You're known for that.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:54] It can come in handy.

John Dehlin [02:01:56] What are you trying to say? What are you. What are you saying? What are you saying?

Natasha Helfer [02:02:01] Just kidding. I think my approach is that I would like to cover their concerns because I'm more than happy to address the concerns. I'm not trying to shy away from the concerns or not address them, but I will not have time in 40 to 45 minutes to address these concerns adequately. So I thought I would prepare a statement that addresses some basic things that I can cover in 40, 45 minutes. Minutes. And, and instead use this opportunity to really cover everything in depth. And then if they want to know my position, since they're not really giving me the time, they can listen to this. That's my thoughts. I don't know what else to do.

John Dehlin [02:02:43] Let's do it.

Natasha Helfer [02:02:44] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:02:46] In fact, you can send this to them.

Natasha Helfer [02:02:48] Yeah, I guess that could be part of my documents. Right. I am preparing a lot of documents. Documents to share with them. Okay, so this was the letter that was dated November 8, 2020. It's again on the church letterhead. It's stated Derby, Kansas Stake. I want to be clear too, that none of these letters ask for any of this to be held confidential. I feel like, you know, these are, they're. They're making a public position about me and this is kind of the reason why. So again, this is part of transparency. So I don't feel like there's an issue with sharing these letters. As far as sharing confidential things that I agree to, then yes, yes, I will respect that. Okay. So, Natasha, I greatly appreciate you taking the time to talk with Bishop Labram and me recently you expressed that you have always been a member of the church, that you love the church and that you are dedicated to the gospel. That's all true. Church members have a wide variety of opinions on any number of topics, including on matters of doctrine and beliefs, belief. This diversity of opinions is generally a blessing to the church where members benefit from the opinions of others in meetings, classes and in counseling and ministering to one another. I think that's actually a pretty healthy statement, pretty healthy paragraph that there is this value for diversity. This difference of opinion becomes of concern when members publicly advocate views that are directly contrary to doctrines fundamental to the church and are disparaging to others, including leaders who don't agree with them. Moreover, this can be confusing to members and non members when those views come from professionals and professional organizations that identify and advertise as Mormon. So this is where that intersection that I've been talking about starts, right? So if you're going to talk within your community as a clinician and publicly advocate views that are contrary to doctrines, which I would say doctrinal interpretation because we know that we have a history in our church, thank goodness from revelatory powers or the, the idea of continuing revelation where our interpretations of doctrine have changed quite a bit. And I look forward to the days when they continue to change in ways that are healthier for our, our membership. And again that doesn't mean all doctrines like there's many doctrines that I would actually support or doctrinal interpretations is understand I would support in regards to mental health, many of them having to do with love and acceptance and you know, being forgiving. And we have, we have lots, lots of good stuff that can help people with their mental health. So as far as the confusing to members and non members when those views come from professionals and professional organizations,

Margi Dehlin [02:05:44] you

Natasha Helfer [02:05:45] know, I, I can see that point at the same time, same it's. People have their agency and their ability to think for themselves and people can take what a church leader is saying or what their gospel, you know, leaders are stating and they can also take the, the opinions of professionals and kind of make up their own minds and make up their own decisions and if they want to use their own spiritual tools to come to what best decisions are for them. So I think this whole idea about using the word Mormon is something that I want to be clear too that by the way, I've been very careful to try to signal that we are not in anything that I've been involved in. I have been very careful to signal that all of my projects are not officially associated with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And even our church leaders have admonished us to kind of move away from the term Mormon. So I specifically used Mormon because it is now really more seen as a cultural term in the social sciences and also kind of in the cultural kind of narrative of who our people are. And also the word Mormon, quite frankly, refers to a lot of people that aren't really part of the mainstream lds. I would say the Mormon family includes the flds. It includes the community of Christ. It includes a lot of other smaller communities, and includes our post Mormons. It includes our nuanced Mormons. It includes our orthodox, orthodox Mormons. Right. So the word Mormon is really a cultural term at this point. It doesn't really signify. So if I would have said, you know, maybe the LDS Mental Health association, which we did consider as a name, we felt that that was too close to the mainstream church and that would actually be disrespectful to them. So we chose the word Mormon for these particular reasons. And I just do want to say that when I started the Mormon Mental Health association with my colleagues, we did have a concern that came up from the church legal team about that. I was contacted by, I don't remember who, some type of legal entity that was claiming to represent the church. And we were able to attain the services of the Electronic Freedom Foundation. And they wrote some very interesting paper for us, which I would like to read right now, as to why the use of the word Mormon is something that. That is not appropriate for the church to try to control or, you know, one of the churches within our Mormon tradition. So they say MMHA is a professional association for mental health providers, clinicians, educators, and advocates who are interested in or are working with members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as well as members of any church. Tracing back to the restoration movement of Joseph Smith, MMHA seeks to improve training, research, strategy, collaboration, and education in the mental health treatment of Mormons, helping ensure that this population's needs are being met by trained professionals who adhere to professional ethics codes. MMHA uses the term Mormon to accurately describe the population it seeks to serve.

John Dehlin [02:09:12] And if I can just go ahead. You're kind of looking through that. I just want to say editorially, it's so weird that the Church has completely withdrawn itself from the term Mormon and even denounced the usage of the term as being a victory for Satan and is an awful thing.

Natasha Helfer [02:09:30] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:09:30] And yet they're even bringing this up as an issue with you. It is now a cultural term term free in the public domain, like Jew. You wouldn't have the, you know, the Reconstructionist Jewish congregation or the Reformed Jewish congregation or the center whatever in the world, basically trying to take control of the word Jew. So it's really weird that they're even bringing up the usage of the term Mormon since they've abandoned it. I just have to kind of of note that, because it's weird and they

Natasha Helfer [02:10:04] continue to say Mormon is a term used to describe those who follow Mormonism or are members of the Mormon community. That is precisely what MMHA has done in the name of its organization as well as related commentary. MMHA does not use the term Mormon as a mark, but instead to refer to and describe the community it serves. There is no other term the MMHA can employ that would convey the same meaning. I completely agree with that. And that is now legal precedent. That legal letter was sent to the church. There really wasn't any action from the church after that. It became a moot point. But it's interesting that, you know, in the legal field, not that I'm a legal expert, but these types of letters and precedents are things that people can use, other lawyers can use to make cases in whatever, you know, court, whatever processes they're involved with. So I am not using the term Mormon to try to, you know, garner some type of weird trust. I'm trying to serve the Mormon community, and that's what I'm describing myself as, and that's what I have expertise as. And then it is the job of every individual, every grown individual to do their own research, to do their own thinking as to whether or not they've decided whatever entity they're going to seek services from is something, is an entity that they can trust and feel comfortable with.

John Dehlin [02:11:27] It's also weird. I. I never. My stake president never got mad that I use the term Mormon in Mormon stories for my podcast. So it just seems weird that they're bringing up the usage of this term. It just. It makes no sense.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:40] But I do think it speaks sometimes to how arbitrary it can all feel and kind of a matter of control or power, what they're picking out or parsing apart, because they didn't have that with you, but they had some other things that felt equally arbitrary at the time and puzzling.

Natasha Helfer [02:12:00] Yeah, right. Well, we do have a long history in our church of saying that we are the only source that can be trusted. Right. So whether it's historians or clinicians or psychiatrists or intellectuals, I mean, These, you know, the church does have kind of like a vested narrative in that don't seek out other sources. That is not good clinical practice. Good clinical practice is about challenging and questioning. So those, again, those two worlds kind of have very different standards. You know, I think that the church would do better in general if it just said, go research, you know, do your own thinking. And then if we're of value to you and if we make sense to you, please be a part of us and in any of these issues that we have. But I digress. Okay, so then how long have you

John Dehlin [02:12:55] been using the term Mormon?

Natasha Helfer [02:12:56] Right. Well, like I said, I started using the word Mormon with the Mormon Therapist blog, which my stake president at the time knew about and seemed fine with. So we moved to Wichita in 2008. So it was around 2000, maybe end of 2008.

John Dehlin [02:13:14] 13 years she's been using the term Mormon.

Natasha Helfer [02:13:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:17] And they're bringing it up now.

Natasha Helfer [02:13:18] Right. While I'm in a different stake. Okay. So in our discussion, Bishop and I raised concerns we wish to discuss. And you requested we send to you in writing some of the questions to allow you time to consider your responses. Correct. These questions are below. Please feel free to add any additional insight that you feel would be appropriate or helpful in understanding your responses. So bullet point number one. Why is the overwhelming tone of your punishment hosts negative towards the church and its leaders?

Examining the Church's Written Case Against Natasha

John Dehlin [02:13:49] Can I just ask you who. Remind us who's writing this letter?

Natasha Helfer [02:13:52] This is Stephen Daly, President Daly. From the Derby, Kansas State. Who is. Who is orchestrating this? Or is it. I don't know. Orchestrating is probably a strong word. Who is organizing this membership?

John Dehlin [02:14:05] And this is basically his written case against you?

Natasha Helfer [02:14:08] Yeah, I guess. Yeah. These were. I mean, I asked him to write these concerns so that I would be prepared to address them. So. So he did that, and I appreciate that. That's. That's fine. So I think that this is a very subjective question. Why is the overwhelming tone of your post negative? And it's also confusing what posts he's talking about, because I have a personal Facebook page. I have a clinical Facebook page. I have the Mormon Therapist blog. And as I share some of the quotes that they share with me, they kind of took from all those things, different spaces that I reside in. So even my personal spaces, which aren't necessarily clinical, but. So I don't think that my tones are negative. I think at times they can be critical, but I think my tones are challenging. I think my tones are educational. I think my tones are advoc. Advocatory. That's a word I like to make a board. Sometimes I, I think my tones are, are. I. I don't. I think negative is a subjective term. And again, I don't know exactly what posts he's referring to. I will also say too, that as a mental health clinician, our job is to deal with problems, right? I mean, people aren't coming to us with all their wonderful things. We do try to point out the wonderful things to them as part of them having better framing, but we're in the business of solving problems. So if I'm posting a lot about what I consider some of the problems or challenges that we have as a community, again, I wouldn't classify that as negative or characterize that as negative. It's. It's part of my job.

John Dehlin [02:15:49] Also, if marriages and lives are literally at stake and people's depression or anxiety or mental health are at stake, shouldn't. Isn't it almost an act of loyalty or devotion or love. Love to speak out in opposition or critical ways?

Natasha Helfer [02:16:05] And my professional code of ethics calls me to advocacy work as it does most mental health professionals. The social work code of ethics for social workers very much focuses on that very strongly as part of their ethics. So have I spoken up in stern ways? Absolutely I have. And I stand by those, by, by those statements, so. Or by that advocacy that I've tried to do. All right, so in the past you have posted be very clear. The Mormon Church is currently a toxic, unsafe place for LGBTQ members and their loved ones, not to mention sinners in general. And whether you realize it or not, that's our entire membership. June 2019. Do you consider the church toxic and unsafe for its members? So I don't exactly know where this was taken from. I wasn't able to find it by searching all my stuff, so I'm guessing it was probably my Facebook page because I can search my blog pretty pretty well. It's interesting that he says it's in June of 2019. This was the same year that the policy was reversed. The policy that had been touted as document doctrine in 2015 by President Nelson was now basically reversed without much publicity to that event in 2019. So I am guessing the context of this quote that I was not able to find had to do with that. And yes, I do believe that the current narrative in our church about gay marriage, about same sex attraction, about homosexuals, about transgender folks, is toxic because the only avenue that currently that segment of our population has for romantic and sexual health is either CELIBACY and, or entering into a marriage that's not resonate with a person's core identity. So, yeah, that is not a healthy place, and especially for youth, because we have to remember two things that, you know, gay kids and lesbian kids and transgender kids, they're in the congregation listening to these messages from very early ages, not just when they're 25 or 30, and can deal with those kinds of ideas with their fully developed brains, which, by the way, happens at 26. So if you're raising a gay kid who is listening to almost every general conference, having something be said about, something negative be said about this kind of population, yeah, that's, that's not healthy. And I'm comfortable saying that. I'm not exactly sure what the sinner's comment was as far as, I mean, I do think that in general, the way that we kind of discipline sin is unhealthy. I think this whole process is unhealthy. So as I call things out, I mean, sometimes I use maybe grand statements. I think they do that a lot too, in general conference, where, you know, you're kind of trying to get an idea across. I, I'm not trying to say that the church is necessarily completely unhealthy for all members. Like I've said many times in many of my posts, as well as tonight, the church can be a wonderful place, a lifesaver for many people. It offers structure, it offers community, it offers. There's many concepts that are actually supported by mental health ideas and practice. So in a way, it kind of depends on the context of each individual. But in general, we have some issues that need to be addressed. Any questions about that? And John, you did, as a matter

John Dehlin [02:19:54] of fact, like, I studied a lot.

Natasha Helfer [02:19:57] I was gonna say, you did a lot of research on this.

John Dehlin [02:19:59] I did a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology. My PhD dissertation was on the LGBTQ Mormon experience. We surveyed over 1,600 2012 LGBTQ Mormons. 70% had left the church or more Awful rates. You know, the, the least healthy group by far were the ones that were following the Church's admonitions, which were either celibacy or mixed orientation marriage. Both had super high depression rates, super high anxiety rates, super low self esteem rates, super high homo negativity rates or internalized homophobia phobia. And they had quality of life ratings lower than people who report having lupus, which is a debilitating disease that no one would want. And people who are following the church's guidelines for LGBTQ people had worse. You know, worse self reported symptoms than all those populations. We all know the well documented rates of attempts at suicide and actual completion of attempts at suicide within Utah and within the Mormon culture. I just don't think this is news to anyone. And that's why there's a mass defection of LGBTQ people from the church, not to mention transgender members, gender, non binary members, etc. Like, and the church is reeling from this and, and so much of the defections within the LDS church are people who love their LGBTQ children or parents or siblings and are leaving because they're seeing the devastation wrought on LGBTQ Mormons. And the church has no theology or doctrine for LGBTQ people. It's only never have love and basically wait until you die to find love and to be able to fulfill your part in Heavenly Father's plan, which makes them sometimes want to die soon sooner. Because what's this life for anyway? You're just going to be sitting, be miserable until you can have love in the next life. So, you know, they can either just wait and never experience love and intimacy or marry someone they're not attracted to and have this marriage that is hard on them and on often the straight spouse where they're married to someone who's not attracted to them, like it's just a nightmare. And, and so who's going to argue that do that? I mean, you're, you're speaking the truth. You should be celebrated for speaking the truth, not excommunicated for stating the obvious.

Natasha Helfer [02:22:31] And I do want to, as you were talking about, you know, like for example, lupus. We know it's very journaled and in so many research papers that the intersection between mental health and physical health is, I mean, we just know now we know that when you have mental health anguish, you're going to have increase of things like diabetes, lower lifespan, heart attacks. This again, like, I mean this just has so many implications for the health and quality of life of our members. Okay, next bullet point. In the past you have posted the last thing I want for my people is to replace one patriarchal prick for another. You can quote me on that one. Beware of any person, organization or system that assumes they know better than you about what you need. Also June 2019, when we asked about your feelings regarding church leadership, you expressed some concern that these comments were taken out of context. I invite you to express your current thoughts and feelings about church organization. Do you sustain the president of the church as prophet, seer and revelator? Okay, so first of all, if anybody knows me, yeah, every now and then, I use kind of color, colorful language. So. So I do. I sometimes I say bad words. So maybe I can repent about that and I can be humble about that. At the same time, it's. It's interesting, the context of this quote. It took us forever to try to find this quote. We actually found it. It's taken off my personal Facebook page, and it does not even refer to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I actually really don't know, even in the comments. I looked at the comments to see if anybody would say something that would clue me into what was going on. On. I really don't know what I was referring to. And I did a lot of advocacy, quite frankly, against President Trump and the issues around mental health that, that were. That we were seeing in regards to some of the positions that his, you know, the. What his administration. His administration, you know, was also attacking many of these things. Transgender rights, LGBTQ plus rights, immigration issues. I mean, there were so many concerns, not to mention incessant racial hatred and crimes that we saw a huge increase on in his administration. So, yes, I spoke as a mental health clinician against my own country's administration often. That does not mean I don't love being an American, and that does not mean that I don't love being a member of my country. So, in fact, I do that for the benefit of. Of people, hopefully educating themselves in regards to how governmental and administrative forces can have a very impactful impact in our daily lives. So I don't know what this is about. I do know that I have used the word patriarchal prick in some of my podcasts, again, kind of using some of my humor, because I actually really love one of the, one of the scriptures that we have in the Doctrine and Covenants that talks about unrighteous demand, dominion. And we have seen many, many issues of people using priesthood powers. And by people, I mean male bodies that oftentimes, you know, use powers in ways that are inappropriate either in their family systems, in their church systems, and their government systems, etc. So I can apologize for using colorful language, but in a sense, I'm. I'm trying to. To point out that unrighteous dominion, unrighteous power plays are not healthy for anybody and actually very abusive in many cases. As far as my thoughts and feelings about the church organization, I think the church organization is a organization that is good overall, that it has wonderful people. I do sustain the leaders of the church, and I take that work word sustain very seriously. I do not believe sustaining somebody is being an echo chamber of somebody or just agreeing with everything they have to say, then you really aren't of much value to that person. If every time I ask my spouse or a friend or my colleagues, hey, this is a great idea I'm having, and they just said, oh, yes, yes, yes, without really giving me their honest opinions, especially if I'm about to do harm, that's not sustaining me. And so I have actually seen my advocacy work and my professionalism and my expertise and offering all this education and resources and ideas as very much a part of my sustaining responsibility of the leaders of my church, who they themselves have admitted that they are fallible. They are men. They are men trying to do the best they can. And do they have spiritual inspiration and things of that nature that they claim to have. Have. Personally, I hope for that, and I believe that professionally I still have to share what I know to be true from a clinical perspective. So that's my way to sustain my leaders. And if I have been firm and at times used strong language, like John said mentioned, there are reasons for the emotion and the anger that sometimes I feel. You know, anger is a secondary emotion to pain. To pain, confusion, and fear. And I have felt a lot of pain and confusion and fear in behalf of people that I have served. So at times I do get angry. And I don't think it's always of the devil, this anger. I think it's a valid feeling, like, oh, what's the fun movie? In and Out. Inside Out. Inside out teaches us that the little red guy plays a role, right? Anger plays a role. Anger plays a motivation role. It plays a role letting us know that something is awry, that our boundaries have been crossed, that there's been a betrayal, that there's something that needs to be done. And anger is motivating. So I know that we all need to watch ourselves when we are angry because it also can be an impulsive feeling, and it can be a feeling that can lead to some harmful behavior. But I do want to be clear that for the. The most part, I don't know that I can think of any example, but for the most part, I have sat on my firm stances that are professionally shared for at least three days so that I can calm myself down, think about things, maybe confer with others. So I have not shared any of my clinical professional opinions lightly. Now, maybe on my personal page every now and then, I don't do that, but I don't think that, um, that's required of me on my personal Facebook page. Okay. Any Questions or next bullet point. Several organizations that you appear to affiliate with or have helped organize identify as Mormon. The Mormon Therapist, the Mormon Sex Info Podcast. Excuse me, the Mormon Mental Health Association, Thrive. And then they added Beyond Mormonism. But the name of the organization is Thrive. And then, yes, their catchphrase is Thrive Beyond Mormonism, which again, I had explained my relationship with them earlier. How do you reconcile identifying professional organizations you affiliate with as Mormon with your past comments that the church is toxic and unsafe to its members? I think I've addressed this bullet point. Do you have any questions about this at all? I've expressed my concern about or my ability to use the word Mormon correctly, and I can. It's kind of like being part of an abusive family. You can love them, but sometimes you need to call them out.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:21] Right?

Natasha Helfer [02:30:22] So, yeah, that's just. It's like, hey, mom, dad, what you're doing is harmful. And sometimes mom and dad get really ticked off about that. And sometimes they even try to discredit you with your siblings when you do that. I know many families that can relate to that issue, especially in sexual abuse cases. Right. So when a member of a family oftentimes speaks up about sexual abuse that a brother or a cousin or a father or an in law has perpetrated many, many times, tragically, the family rallies around the perpetrator and does not believe the victim. Because to face that our family has that type of a problem, problem is incredibly threatening and feels, you know, unsafe for the family to take responsibility for what's happening in that system so you can be part of systems that you love. We're a family. We're a big Mormon family. I can be critical and still love, love my community, love my membership, love my leaders.

John Dehlin [02:31:20] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:31:21] So I think we've covered that point. Okay, next, when we spoke, we expressed concern that some of your opinions shared publicly on forums identified as Mormon, especially concerning the law of chastity, use of pornography and masturbation and marriage between a man and a woman are contrary to those accepted by the Church. Would you explain your views on these two topics? Again, I think we've covered this as far as my professional views on these things. And if you have more questions about my views or want to educate yourselves, by all means. I have provided many, many hours of education.

Church Positions on Masturbation and Same-Sex Marriage

John Dehlin [02:31:58] I guess I just want to jump in here.

Natasha Helfer [02:32:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:32:00] You know, Jennifer Finlayson Fife, Julie Diazevedo Hanks, you know, go down the list of prominent active Mormon therapists, even Laura

Natasha Helfer [02:32:14] Brotherson, who does not necessarily advocate for sexual health in a Very healthy way herself, especially for the transgender population. But she has talked about masturbation and self pleasure. Yeah, I don't know if she's talked about pornography necessarily.

John Dehlin [02:32:30] But yes, any of these mental health professionals, I mean, probably Most certified competent PhDs in psychology or marriage and family therapists or licensed clinical social workers probably identically share your views on masturbation, on pornography, on quote, sex addiction, on LGBT rights, trans rights and same sex marriage. Steve and Barb Young have come out in support of same sex marriage. Like, who hasn't? Like, like the whole Mormons building bridges contingent that marches in the Utah Pride parade. Like, what are you being, what are you being? You know, what positions do you have that aren't the positions of pretty much all competent ethic ethics abiding mental health professionals who are active believing Mormons? Marty Erickson, the entire staff at Brigham Young University's counseling center. Like, what are they getting you on there? It's, it's, it's basically you're, you're getting punished for agreeing with, to abide by the ethical and professional standards of your profession, which also all, all other competent mental health professionals share. It just makes no sense.

Natasha Helfer [02:33:42] I agree, I completely agree. And this is why I think that this story is really a very telling story. It's, and has huge implications for our mental health community because it does affect all these other colleagues of mine that I respect astronomically and who are doing the work side by side with me. They may not be as vocal always as I am or public. They may all, they may have more diplomatic ways of sharing their opinions. Sometimes I, I don't, I'm not diplomatic. I just kind of talk off the, off the cuff of my sleeve. I know that that's my own personality trait, but I am not sharing anything that, and in fact, if, if, if clinicians are not sharing that information, that's unethical practice. And that is happening. As I was talking before, there are clinicians that encourage people not to marry a gay partner or come out because in essence they're encouraging compliance with church doctrine and that is a breach of their ethics and should be reported to ethical boards. If you have been a, I would say a victim of unethical malpractice. There are regulatory boards in every state where you can publish your complaint and essence, tell the, the regulatory board your experience with a clinician and that that clinician will be investigated for these types of breaches. Okay, next, how do you reconcile identifying professional organizations you affiliate with as Mormon when your views seem to be inconsistent with Church doctrine. Are you concerned that potential patients or those seeking professional help could believe that the guidance provided in these areas is consistent with church doctrine and policies? Because it is coming from church members who identify themselves as Mormon. So again, this is just kind of another question that kind of repeats itself. I believe I don't. Do you see anything here that I haven't already addressed?

Margi Dehlin [02:35:39] Okay.

Natasha Helfer [02:35:40] Do you believe potential clients who are members of the LDS Church are more likely to trust you because of your affiliation with the church and description as the Mormon therapist? I feel again, that's the same question.

John Dehlin [02:35:51] No longer the Mormon Church, like you, LDS Church, Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints, you've abandoned the term Mormon so Natasha can use it and she's been using it for 12 or 13 years. So why now? Like dumb. These are dumb reasons. These make no sense. I mean what they do is they just come up with excuses for the fact that they don't like you or they don't agree with you or you've criticized them and they. This is. And the decision's already been made. It's so funny, frustrating.

Questions About Post-Mormon Support Communities

Natasha Helfer [02:36:22] What is your Amen? What is your connection to Thrive Beyond Mormonism? What do you see as the purpose of that group? In what circumstances do you believe it is appropriate to help members leave the church? And have you encouraged members to leave the church? So this is extremely distressing question. I mean, first of all, I've been, I've been, I've been connected to many groups. I have done work, again like for marriage on a tightrope, Thrive Beyond Mormonism. I've presented it. Affirmation. I presented Sunstone. I present. I mean there are so many organizations that I have gladly offered my time, my energy. Sometimes those things are paid, not usually, not usually to help people in these kinds of situations that we've been talking about. So the Thrive Beyond Mormonism is an organization that was founded by Clint and Jenny Martin. Martin. They both identify as post Mormon and they see the, you know, they are, they were very proactive about creating an organization and invited both John and I to be part of some of the resources that they could offer to the people. Because we do know that transitioning from a high demand religion is taxing. It's difficult, difficult. I mean, I'm sorry, but just in this last general conference, you know, President Nelson himself, the prophet of our church, called people who leave the church or who doubt lazy learners. So they're name calling, you know, our leaders are name calling people who are going through very difficult challenges in their life, who are Sincerely searching and asking questions that quite frankly, our church has not done a very good job historically at least, of answering on historical issues. So I really get upset when, when in a sense, our members who are leaving the faith or deciding that our faith community is not where they want to continue, that in a sense they're gaslighted, right, they're blamed for taking a different route. We can do better than that. We can say thank you for your service and we hope that you find, you know, greener pastures and other places. We still want you to be with us and we're sad that you're leaving. Is there anything that we can do to help you stay? But other than that, to name call and belittle people who don't find a religious community the best fit for them spiritually or emotionally, is completely inappropriate and hurtful and adds to the concerns that come through my office. So if I'm working with mixed faith marriages, for example, and I create this entire six week program that I have created with Alan and Katie Mount, and I'm talking about how to treat each other with respect and to not use degrading names like, well, you're an apostate, well, you're, you know, a sinner or you're lazy or whatever. And then the prophet, prophet himself is exhibiting that type of role modeling and, and people and families are listening to that. It gives them a permission to treat each other badly. That's bad behavior. So this is an example right now of how I'm being critical of church leaders. At the same time, President Nelson has also said many wonderful things, many great things. But I, as a trained clinician, I'm listening for these particular issues that show up in my office day to day. And that's what I'm speaking to. So we know that post Mormons struggle with isolation, struggle oftentimes with the exclusion practices in their families. They're oftentimes treated differently, maybe not allowed to. I've talked to grandparents who are not allowed to talk to their grandchildren or visit with their grandchildren. I've talked to families that are not invited any longer to family reunions. There's, there's, there can be, depending on the family culture of specific Mormons, a lot of ostracization, if I'm saying that correct. And that's painful. And so a big complaint of post Mormons is a loss of community. And they're lonely and they're isolated and they're hurting and they feel attacked and misunderstood and belittled and they need community, they need support and tools and Tools and resources. And so people like Clint and Jenny and many others, Leah and Cody Young, who were actually, again, they lost their membership for offering this kind of support to people who were doubting that. I'm sorry, I just. I just don't understand. It's just. It's not, it's not my gospel. That's what I'm going to say. It's not. It's not what we should be doing. So, so the purpose of this group is to meet that need. And they have asked me to share my expertise on good mental health and relational practices, either in mixed faith relationships or in post Mormon relationships, so that people can thrive and bloom no matter where they plant themselves.

John Dehlin [02:41:44] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:41:44] Yes, John. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:41:45] No, it's beautiful. Yeah. And the church not only, you know, isn't providing any resources for people who leave the church, they're adding insult to injury by insulting them and demeaning them and creating a culture where people are shunned and marginalized and, and families blow up and people get disowned like it's a catastrophe. And so you're one of the healers rushing in. Like Mr. Rogers said, you know, you're. You're trying to heal. And why wouldn't the Savior, wouldn't Jesus support a program of ministering to people who have, who are hurting from a loss of their faith and from their faith community? And so, but, but, but also, I just really take umbrage. I've been working with you since, like, I don't know, 2011 or earlier. You have never once, once encouraged anyone to ever leave the church. In fact, neither have I. I have never once in my life, as far as I remember, ever told anyone they should leave the church. And that's just not how you work. That would. That's unethical.

Natasha Helfer [02:42:47] It is unethical.

John Dehlin [02:42:49] And Thrive isn't about encouraging people to leave the church. Thrive's explicit goal is if you decide that the church no longer works for you, then we're here to support you. But Thrive isn't trying to get people to leave the church. Church. I have literally, in my life, never told someone they should leave the church or advise that. I think that's a personal decision. But you of all people have never even come close to that. So it just shows they're not doing their homework. They don't know what they're talking about. They're just kind of throwing things into the soup and accusing you of things you are literally the last person to do.

Natasha Helfer [02:43:22] Yeah, I mean, I value my membership. It wounds me greatly. When we lose people. I understand why we lose people because I've just been sharing with you why we lose many of our people. And it saddens me when they go. But it is not my responsibility to coerce or to encourage people to either leave or stay in a religion. And in fact, I start most of my presentations and workshops with that exact statement. I am not here to attack the church. I'm not here to encourage you to leave the church. I'm not encouraging you to stay with the church. I'm here to teach you sexual or relational or mental health health principles, depending on the presentation I'm giving. That should help you regardless of what your decisions are in. In regards to your church membership.

John Dehlin [02:44:09] Yeah, so.

Natasha Helfer [02:44:11] Yeah, so that's extremely painful and unfair characterization for sure. And it's been wonderful to see as I've been reading some of the letters, I've been inundated. So I. I apologize right now if I'm not getting back to messages or people who are really sharing some very heartfelt emotions and experiences with me. Many, many people just in the last day have shared very personal, very personal wounds and sacred experiences in their own personal lives and how the work that I've done or that my colleagues have done have affected them. And it's been a privilege and an honor to receive those kinds of communications. And I just apologize. I plan to get. Get back to all of you, but it may take me a few weeks to do so. And as I've seen the letters come in, I'm so glad to hear that people have never felt that type of energy from me that, that it's about leaving or staying in the church. All right, so, Natasha, given your very public presence, this is not a bullet point. This is kind of like their last paragraph. Natasha, given your very public presence and very public and strident position positions, it is difficult to reconcile your love of the church and the derision of its leaders and doctrine. Derision is a pretty strong word, right? And again, thing. And again, very subjective. Who's. Who's going to define derision and who's going to define strident? Although I kind of agree with strident, but I don't know that I agree with derision. My hope is we can discuss things you can do that might lead to your public opinion of the Church being consistent with your private opinion as expressed to Bishop Labram and me. I'm available to discuss this any Sunday night over the next three weeks at a time that is convenient for you. And please remember too, that I didn't receive this until February 13th of 2021. And I did get back to him within a three week time period.

John Dehlin [02:46:07] So that is the case against Natasha the story. Okay. Yeah. So, and now you've given your, your response and how long did that take?

Natasha Helfer [02:46:24] What time is it?

John Dehlin [02:46:24] We're, we're two hours and 50 minutes in. I think there's time, two hours and 50 minutes and we've had over 800 people simultaneously watching at any given moments. So we, we well exceeded 800. So thanks to everyone who shared this. Please share it now. If you're listening now, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, email, share this Everywhere you can, WhatsApp, wherever you do your social media. Share this so that everybody knows what the church is doing.

Natasha Helfer [02:46:53] And again, my intent is not to embarrass the church. My intent is to be transparent and to help our community have, have a conversation that needs to be had and we have to do that publicly and because they have not allowed it to be anything else but that. So I, it really isn't my intent to embarrass or it's really my intent to draw attention to this, this tension that I've been talking about that is affecting people's lives in ways that are very harmful and unnecessary and that we can do better and to educate.

John Dehlin [02:47:29] So I don't want people to leave until they've had a chance to hear how we can support Natasha because there's some very specific things you've asked your supporters, people who support you to do. They're on your Facebook page. They're now posted to mormonstories.org if you want to go there and read what they are. But before we get to the ways people can help, which includes showing up to a vigil at 6:30pm in Derby camp Kansas at the stake to support Natasha. I'll be there. Clinton, Jenny Martin will be there. Sam Young will be there. Lots of cool friends. Katie Mount's gonna be there. Lots of cool friends are going to be there. You guys want to have a fun little Sunday? Fly with us to Derby, Kansas and let's show up for Natasha and show her love. We did it for Bill Real. We did it for Jeremy Reynolds. You guys did it for me and Margi. We did it for Sam Young. We tried to do it for Leah and Cody. Yeah, Tongue, let's, let's support Natasha. You're also asking people to email your stake president and the email address. We'll read it in a bit. Or professional people to co sign a letter that Lisa Butterworth is writing to express concern on the behalf of Mormon.

Natasha Helfer [02:48:41] Oh yeah, that's a whole other thing that's happening behind the scenes. My, one of my providers, Lisa Butterworth, she, she's the founder of the Mormon Feminist Housewives blog. That again, was kind of the beginning of the blogosphere. And she has gathered an incredible letter that is going to be signed by LDS clinicians talking about many of the talking points that I have talked about tonight, much more succinctly and professionally done than I've probably been able to exude in my sleep. Pays to state. And, and so that is, I mean, again, personally, that's incredibly edifying, right, to have my colleagues come and walk with me. And I want to thank them for that effort. I did not ask for that. But again, it's not really about me, even though I keep crying about me. It's, it's really giving a message of the clinical importance of this matter. That's what this is really about.

John Dehlin [02:49:49] And the Mormon people.

Natasha Helfer [02:49:50] Yes.

Preparing for the Disciplinary Council on Sunday

John Dehlin [02:49:52] So a couple quick questions. Just about Sunday. So again, you stated this at the very beginning. Now that if there's going to be a bunch of people who are here now that weren't at the beginning of this program because people have to feed their kids and put them to bed and do their homework, work and go to their jobs or whatever it is they do, what is your desired outcome for Sunday?

Natasha Helfer [02:50:16] As far as what I hope happens after this is all said and done

John Dehlin [02:50:19] for the membership council, what is your desired outcome?

Natasha Helfer [02:50:22] My desired outcome is to retain my membership. That has personal and spiritual value to me. That's my main desire. And like I said, my second desire is if we're going to go through with this, then let's talk about sexual health. Let's heal, let's get better. Let's do better. We can do better.

John Dehlin [02:50:50] So people who don't know you and don't understand you would say, oh, well, Natasha, you've been critical of church leaders. You disagree with the church in, in lots of ways. Your beliefs may not, not even be totally orthodox or traditional in some ways. Who knows? Why would you even want to retain your membership? They would say you're not an orthodox.

Natasha Helfer [02:51:07] Well, I guess my first thing I'd say is a boundary. It's really none of your business why. That's a, that's my own spiritual personal matter. And that's really kind of all I'm willing to say about that. I'm not being called for my personal spiritual worthiness. I'm being called for my clinical positions. So it is sufficient. I know in this Mormon population, we have a hard time with boundaries and we want, we think we need to know everybody's business and we need to know every intricacies of everybody's intellect to see whether or not they really belong or not. No, you don't get to have that information. You haven't earned my vulnerability. You don't know me. Those are my personal, sacred spiritual experiences. And there is something very profound to be me about the scripture of not casting your pearls before swine. And not that I want to call anybody swine, but what that means to me is do not try to express what's sacred to you, to people who may not trust you, agree with you, allow for your vulnerability, or even commune with you. So that's, that's mine. That's. I'm not here to talk about my personal worthiness or my spiritual beliefs. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is important to me. I, I try to live it, I try to abide by it. I teach it in my family. That's, that's me and my business.

Margi Dehlin [02:52:31] Way to embody a boundary. Beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:52:36] Amen. Amen. We need better boundaries. Thanks for modeling that. Okay, what if someone in Natasha were to say, on the other side, decide, hey, this disciplinary council is barbaric. It's, it's medieval, it's inhumane, it's abusive. Why are you even showing it respect or credibility by even showing up?

Natasha Helfer [02:52:59] Well, there's two things I will say to that. If I want to retain my membership at some level, I'm, you know, agreeing to abide by some of the, of the policies or, or understandings of gospel under gospel interpretation at this point. Secondly, however, though, because I do not believe that this is a healthy aspect for me to go through personally, and I don't believe it's healthy for anybody is, I'm, I'm going, I'm willing to be a witness of that. I'm willing to be a witness of the harm these kinds of councils can, can do. I know already, because I have felt it even in that zoom meeting meeting, that I will be juggling my nerves, that I will have physiological reactions in that room that will be increased heart rate. I know that I will probably be emotional. I know that I will stumble in my words. I know that that will not be a healthy mental space for me. I am willing to witness that and be able to talk about that and to stand with all of those who have been in that community kind of position before me, and many of which do not get the public recognition of some of the advocates that John just mentioned,

John Dehlin [02:54:18] To what extent do you worry that like with so many others, the decision's already been made that this is kind of a kangaroo court and kind of is just a formality for a decision that's already been made? Are you, are you worried about that?

Natasha Helfer [02:54:30] I am worried about that. I have, that they have not signaled to me that they are interested in dialogue. They have signaled to me that they want a quick kind of loosening of ends being tied. And that's the energy and the signaling that I'm receiving. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. And even if I'm not wrong, even if the decision was made, it doesn't mean the decisions can't be changed. And I'm hoping that the letters and the advocacy that has been being shared with present daily on the behalf of sexual health and mental health and relational health will soften their positions.

John Dehlin [02:55:11] Yeah. Yeah. And have you chosen witnesses?

Natasha Helfer [02:55:24] So, like I said, Andy Parker, my still husband, soon to be ex husband, will be there with me. We are very aligned and good friends that will stand together in this, in that type of relationship. Katie Mount has shown willingness, but she's still waiting for permission because that's a big cost and even time, energy. She's got a large family of her own to take care of. Jodi is England. Who else did I mention earlier? Oh, and Janice Spangler. Lisa Butterworth is seeing if it fits with her crazy schedule. See, it's just, it's not something they didn't give us like a month or two to plan this right where we could, where we could come together in a more organized way.

John Dehlin [02:56:19] Yeah,

Natasha Helfer [02:56:21] I'm open to others. I mean, I, I, they gave me an hour, which I feel is very offensive, like I said to begin with and very hurtful. I don't mind. Like I said, I'm going to have a written statement. I don't think it'll take me much time to read that. I don't know if they're going to have questions for me. I haven't really seen a lot of that in the previous courts that we've kind of heard about. So I don't know how much more information they'll want from me. But, but I'm willing to give it. I'm willing to stay more than an hour, but I don't mind sharing some of that space with other people who can feel important to speak to these issues that I'm describing.

John Dehlin [02:57:04] Do you know who your judges will be? Will it be the bishop and his counselors? Will it be the stake president, his counselors? Will it be the bishop and the stake president? Do you know who's going to be your judges in Israel?

Natasha Helfer [02:57:13] I don't. I know that this is not a bishop's council. It's a stake presidency. Council.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:18] Council.

Natasha Helfer [02:57:19] When I read through, again, through the handbook and also got some opinions from leaders in the church, they said that more than likely with the new membership guidelines, it will be the stake presidency, not the entire High council like it used to be before. But again, I. I'm not an expert in priesthood matters because I have been left out of all of those meetings for the entirety of my membership as a female in the church.

Inside the Membership Council with Margi Present

John Dehlin [02:57:51] Margi, one really special thing for me was that you were able to attend my disciplinary council and you were by my side the whole time. And I think you probably had some pretty strong feelings and reactions. I know that it was important for you to show up today to show your support for Natasha. Is there anything you want to say about disciplinary councils in general or just to Natasha specifically, putting you on the spot?

Margi Dehlin [02:58:21] Yeah.

Natasha Helfer [02:58:22] Look at you go.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:23] What? You know, I don't feel like at this point it's going to be super helpful for me to go back to. I'm. I'm glad I was there to witness that. I think it's important. I think it is an act of courage to attend and to shine light. I think it's really important. I'm glad. I'm glad we did that. And Natasha knows how I feel about Natasha. I am 100% with her. I see her. I will be in the room. Like, not physically, but I will. She can carry me there. And moreover, I will be here when she gets back. And I think that's the thing that I remember most from our time was. And I think I spoke about this a little bit in my transition interview, but I think originally in my brain, I had this It's a Wonderful Life picture. Like, I thought our ward members were gonna come. Come and save us. Like, at the end of. Like, I thought, really, we've served so long in this ward. I've been in young women's. I've taught. We. I've taught nursery. I mean, I've taught in the sunbeams and all these things. Like, I thought for sure where they're all our neighbors, like, they know us. And what happened was there was a shift on that we had some neighbors who left off bread or. Or wrote little notes or. But in the end, it was all these other people, and it's the people who did show up. It's the witnesses that we got to hear in the room. You know, in our case, I didn't feel particularly listened to. I don't think that was the point of the stake president, and that was to really hear us or like we were gonna really get on new territory or new understanding or new ground. But to see your mom. Mom. To see your brother, you know, to see my Cuban, to have people really speak in your behalf in such a heartfelt way, I don't think we normally get that, maybe, except at funerals, maybe when we're gone. So that was the gift of such a painful experience, was you remember the people who rescued you, remember the people who join you and who are by your side when these things happen. And I just. I'm glad to be one of them.

Natasha Helfer [03:00:58] Thank you, Margi. And I think you're right. I mean, when I first thought about this happening in Derby, where I'm no longer really connected and don't have many people, I just had this image of, like, me and Andy sitting on the stoop, you know, kind of alone and depressed and sad. And I have broken out in tears more this week when people have told me that they will be there. And I know a lot of people can't. And I don't want to encourage any financial burden or any emotional burden to be there. If you come in spirit like you, Margi, I will feel you. I know you're there. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:42] You.

Natasha Helfer [03:01:45] Plus, it's Covid. It's Covid time. I mean, right? So people have to really be careful with their health. And if anybody do. Does come, I want to make sure. I'm. I'm saying I encourage CDC regulation, you know, procedures, and let's be careful to social distance and wear our masks. And I am fully vaccinated. I know you are, John, but I think the CDC guidelines are still to mask and social distance.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:12] So.

Natasha Helfer [03:02:12] So I'll be doing that.

John Dehlin [03:02:15] And if I can just add Margi to your beautiful words. I remember the people that showed up at the vigil. I remember the people that sent us, you know, someone shows up with the banana split package to help us make banana splits. People. My friend, one of my friends showed up with a man can of like, beef jerky and, you know, manly stuff, which I'm not condoning toxic masculinity, but by any sense of the message. But all the emails, all the letters that people. People send flowers and then all the Facebook, you know, messages and emails, people really, thousands of people rallied for us in all the ways that they could, including people that called from Europe. People from Europe called my stake president to tell them they were making a big mistake. Multiple people, People just. And so that's how I want to end is, listen, everybody, this is an opportunity for us to shine a huge, big fat light on something that needs to change. And it's not just the disciplinary council process, which they've renamed so that it sounds less barbaric than it is, but it's still an excommunication and it's still inhumane. So that. But more importantly, the. The issues that Natasha has stood for and the issues that are in question are issues that are literally matters of life and death, matters of intact families or broken up families for tens and hundreds of thousands of Mormons in the present and in the future. And so we need your support. Natasha needs your support. So there's so many ways you can do it. You can share this interview with as many people as possible. You can reach out if you know a general third, if you know an apostle Russell, if you know members of the first presidency, if you know people who have a lot of money because sometimes those people have more influence than the rest of us. If you know celebrities who have a lot of public say, reach out to them, let them know this is happening to Natasha. If you know journalists, I don't know if you've talked to even the Salt Lake Tribune yet or the Deseret News or you know, the Ogden. If any of you guys know journalists, journalists write the journalists, right? Peggy Fletcher Stack. Right. Doug Fabrizio at Radio west. Write npr, right? The New York Times. Reach out to any journalist you can and let them know about what's going on. We need as many journalists out journalism outlets covering this story and then, and then write letters to your stake. Natasha's stake president. You can reach him. His name again is. What's his name, Natasha?

Natasha Helfer [03:04:55] Stephen Daly.

John Dehlin [03:04:56] Stephen Daly. That's S T e P H e n D a L e y of the Kansas, of the Kansas Derby. Kansas State President, Derby Kansas Steak. His email is Steven S T e

Natasha Helfer [03:05:09] V e. It's not Stephen, it's Steve.

John Dehlin [03:05:11] Steve M. Daly. S T e v E M as in Mary D a l e y mail.com email that dude and let him know how you feel and speak up and share all of this stuff on social media, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, TikTok. Please let the world know about what's going on in Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [03:05:34] I know nothing about Tick tock.

John Dehlin [03:05:36] If you have podcasts, podcast about this, spread the word. Join us in Derby Kansas US. We're flying out Sunday morning. We're flying back Monday. Join us if you can come. If you can't make a vigil in your local area or just on the day of the disciplinary council, find ways on social media to create videos, to create TikTok videos on Facebook, to, to create videos or segments or posts in solidarity for Natasha, to build awareness around, around, you know, in your wards and in your stakes and in your spheres of influence. Those are some things that I would call on you to do. Natasha. How else can people support you or the cause?

Natasha Helfer [03:06:22] That's way more than I would have thought. Obviously I'm not a, a public relations type person, but yeah, I think, I think the, the most meaningful ways for me are, is, you know, to reach out to, to the Stake Presidency, because I think it is those stories that really tell the Mormon story, which is just one chapter of a much larger sexual shame story which is rampant in our country, in our public education, in our legal systems and our legislation. We have all kinds of issues in this country with rape culture, with discrimination, with, you know, sexual crimes and harassment. I mean, we, we have to, to heal as, as a people. And Mormonism is one small member of the overall family of this country and of course of the, the global community. This is really not like I, I said in my prior post, this is not only a Mormon story, it's a human story. Sexual shame has been. Been a rampant part of the, of the ways that we have intimately harmed each other, again, many way, in many ways unnecessarily. So that's my call. That's my, that's my cause. I, I do want to say that if you are a believer, I am trustworthy. If you are a non believer, I am trustworthy. I have proved that over and over. You will be safe in my office or in my work workshop or as a listener of my podcast, because I am thinking of that entire spectrum as I think about the ways that I teach and practice and educate and advocate. I will respect your values and your experience, your life experience, because if I don't, I am acting against my ethical, professional codes of conduct. And that is serious. My license can be revoked if that's the, the case. And I take that very seriously. So have I made mistakes in clinical practice? I'm sure I have. Haven't we all? But, but in general, I have. I'm trustworthy because I have almost 25 years of experience serving our community. And, and I, and I feel overall I have done a good job and of that I Am proud. Not because I'm prideful, because I honor my willingness to show up in this way for myself. I also want to say, just as a side note, I just want to thank my children because I have been an absent mother this last week, and that is very hard. And I gathered them together in our family room and I explained as best as I could what was happening and that I would be absent. And they've been happily eating Del Taco down the road all week. And, you know, that's our go to as well, giving each other rides. And. And so I just want to just go with, you know, give a shout out. And then of course, to my son in Kansas, who is now going to have to share, you know, the very little time that he has with his mom already with this kind of bigger issue. So my. My family also pays a cost at a price for my work. And I. They've always been super supportive. And if I can quote my son, although I say it wrong, but it's like, no worries, mom, it's Busan. I don't think I say that right, but that's. That's what he says. So that's the new term I'm trying to get right so I don't embarrass him. But anyway, my kids are definitely us, and so thanks to them.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:19] Yes, absolutely.

Reflections, Community Support, and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [03:10:22] All right, well, Natasha, we love you, we adore you. We owe so much to you as a community. We're lucky to have you. And as. As two people who have been through what, what you're about to go. And by the way, Gina Colvin had a disciplinary council and was not excommunicated.

Natasha Helfer [03:10:43] Right, Right. That's why there's hope here. There's hope not to forget that.

John Dehlin [03:10:48] I don't know if she's still a member now, but, you know, there was an outcome that was an excommunication, and that kind of surprised us. I think it probably was due to the intervention of people of influence. And so if, again, that's a call for any of you who don't want to see the church poke itself in the eye. If you love the church, reach out on behalf of Natasha, because I'm telling you, people are already resigning over the. This, and, you know, it's. It's causing people to leave the church. So if you care about the church, reach out and stop this from happening. But. But what. What Margi and I think want to say is whether or not there's an outcome that you want. Natasha, you're going to be okay. And, you know, I think the church thought that by excommunicating me and really my whole family, Lee or Sam Young or Bill Real or Jeremy Runnels, that our influence was going to decrease. And it really is just like Obi Wan Kenobi in Star Wars. You strike us down, you make us stronger. Mormon Stories has never had more viewers or listeners, more donors, more supporters. Bill Real and RFM are doing better than ever. Jeremy Reynolds is doing better than ever. And the more they attack us, the stronger they make us and the more they hurt the themselves. So in theory, those of us, you know, people who think we hate the church, we should be wanting and celebrating these disciplinary councils, but that's not true because they're barbaric and inhumane. We want them to stop. And so. But what we wanted to say to you, Natasha, is if, if you get a verdict that you don't want, it's been our experience that there is light after this. There's health after this, there's healing after this. There's a career after this. You will be embraced and loved and supported by your community. And we, we've got your back as you've had our back. And I think it's going to be sunshine for you either way, after some appropriate mourning and grieving, depending on what happens. But, yes, but we're here for you and we love you and we're lucky to have you and thank you for all you've done, are doing and will do on, on behalf of the Mormon people.

Natasha Helfer [03:12:58] Thank you, John. And yes, I agree with much of what you've said, and I am, I don't see a path forward where I still don't identify very much as Mormon, where I don't feel the fruits of the gospel. And in some ways, you know, I don't believe that men can control that. Exactly. They can control my membership, but they cannot control my relationship with the divine. And I also want people to know that my work, I plan to continue, this is my sphere. This is where I do good work. This is where I train other professionals. I'm not planning on any changes in either really my personal or professional life in regards to this outcome. So thank you, John and Margi, for your time tonight and for your love and your support. It really means the world. And I know we've been through a lot personally together, and you're just your dear friends. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:13:57] All right, well, you guys really came through. I, I set the goal for 600 contiguous listeners and we've sustained over 800 for most of this episode. So you Guys really showed up. Thanks for sharing it. Please share this. Thanks for your support of Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. Thanks for your support of Natasha Symmetry Solutions Mormon Mental health podcast. All the great work that Natasha's doing, doing and all the other ways that you guys are doing good things wherever you are. Please keep loving each other. Let's be positive. Let's not trash the church. Let's not hate on the. The leaders involved. It's systems, not people. Let's not say mean things to the stake president or bishop. Let's not even. Even malign church leaders. Let's be healthy and positive and constructive in the ways that we speak out because we're, you know, let's not be the monsters we're trying to kind of vanquish. Let's. Let's model the love and the compassion and the empathy that we're seeking. So let's just be super loving and responsible as we support Natasha and as we go about our work.

Natasha Helfer [03:15:11] Thank you, actually, John, for saying that. I completely agree with that and I. I would. That's the type of support I'm seeking. And I do think we are more effective in sharing our positions when we treat people respectfully. I'm a big believer of the sandwich approach. So you start off by being kind and validating the other person, and then you share maybe the more controversial or difficult parts and then you end with support and love. When we do that for each other, other, we are much more able to hear each other. And I need us all to hear each other, not attack each other. Thank you, John, for mentioning that.

John Dehlin [03:15:52] All right, love you guys. And Margi, thanks for coming. I. You. You know it. I always love having you at my side and you're a peach and. And a love peach.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:05] Thanks, babe.

John Dehlin [03:16:06] And you're strong and wise and good and thanks for joining us today. I hope you'll come back more.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:12] Okay, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:16:15] What were you going to say?

Margi Dehlin [03:16:16] Nothing.

John Dehlin [03:16:16] Okay, good.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:18] Thanks, everyone.

John Dehlin [03:16:19] Love you, sweetie. All right, love you, Natasha.

Natasha Helfer [03:16:21] Love you, too. All right, take care, everybody.

John Dehlin [03:16:23] Keep up the good work. Thanks, everybody.

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