Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It's August 31, 2022, and we are many, many episodes into an amazing series on Mormon Stories podcast called LDS Discussions), where my friend Mike joins with us to talk about Mormon Church truth claims. I think we're 21 episodes in or so by my count. I want to just remind everybody that this entire series can be seen listen to on Mormon Stories, but we've also created isolated or specialized feeds on Spotify on anchor. And also there's a playlist on YouTube and you can access the LDS discussions stream on Apple Podcasts or wherever you consume your episodes. But if you just want, you know, 15, 20 episodes of digging into Mormon Church truth claims, where we try to be as objective and as fair and as scholarly as possible, while still sometimes giving emotional reactions. But that's what the LDS Discussions) Project is about. It's for people who are genuinely open to learning about the Mormon Church's truth claims and making as objective as possible decision about those truth claims, or if they just want to be informed. That's what this project is about. Today we have a super important, but also very, very difficult subject to discuss. We are going to be discussing race and LDS or Mormon scriptures. We debated whether to use the word race or racism, but. But the truth is we want people to feel comfortable that we're gonna do our best to not be just bashing, but instead, you know, are trying to just be fair and balanced. And so we're gonna do our best. I'm gonna just give a couple other quick disclaimers before I bring Mike on. Normally what we would want to do is to have maybe a member of the marginalized communities that we might be talking about on the show to be a part of this. Gerardo is a very easy person to bring on because Gerardo is a constant member of our team and he obviously is from Mexico and can speak to kind of Latin American and or Native American kind of concepts. Gerardo is in the process of moving and he's just not available for the next few weeks. So that's hard. But also one of the problems is that while you want to pass the mic and you want to give voice to marginalized communities, you also don't want them to have to do the work for you to, because sometimes it's taxing or exhausting. And so when we're all trying to be allies, we're always trying to balance passing the mic with also not asking marginalized people or oppressed people who already, you know, are doing a heroic work to try and just survive and thrive in the communities that are, in many ways are stacked against them. You don't always want to add to their burden, an extra burden of having to represent or educate the rest of us. So we did reach out to a few friends. We did consult with them, and we have sort of made the offer to a group of people, if they want to do a specialized Mormon Stories episode reacting to this information, we are going to do that. But in addition, we're going to kind of draw a circle around what we're going to try and do today. We're not going to be trying to represent, you know, let's just say black or African American or Native American or Hispanic or or Polynesian experiences. That's not. We're going to be trying to do. What we're going to be trying to do is lay out evidence or history around Mormon Church scriptures and race and or racism and just provide that information. And then if we want to follow up with inviting members of various marginalized communities to comment or give reactions or provide additional insight, we, we have those invitations out there and we're eager to follow up on that. So that's our best attempt at being responsible with this conversation. We may or may not succeed in that. And so with that disclaimer and opener. Hey, Mike, welcome back.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:04:03] How's it going?

John Dehlin [00:04:04] It's so great to have you.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:04:06] It's good to be here. This one, like I, I said at the end of the last episode, the next month are going to be a lot of rough episodes and we're going to do our best. Like we've been trying through the whole series. One of the things I've been trying this whole time is to present the data and not to cherry pick the worst data points to make the church just look as bad as possible and also not to sugarcoat it. So we're trying to find that balance. And this one's obviously just a really. It's emotional. I, you know, was trying to listen to some stuff this past week to get ready for it, and there were things I was hearing that I hadn't heard a long time. And, you know, it would make me like audibly gasp, you know, when I'm like I've mentioned in previous episodes, I work, I run a small business. A lot of times I'm just kind of working on stuff with headphones on and it's really difficult. It was really hard to put these slides together. But we're going to do our best. And in no way am I trying to tell anyone what their experience was. And I could never do that and I could never understand that. But I just want to present what the data is and what it says about the Church, what it says about our leaders, what it says about the foundational scriptures that we still uphold as doctrine today, and try to do it in the most gentle way we can. But the fact is, if we don't talk about it, then people are not going to understand. It's still there, a lot of people. And I could say this is a convert. I had no idea the depth of this when I was a member. And it's important to know, even if it is really, really difficult to hear.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] Absolutely. Okay, well, let's go ahead and dive in to our first slide.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:05:45] Yeah, and so this is kind of just talking about what we've talked about in a lot of the episodes, especially in recent weeks. But this whole series is meant to build on each other. And so on the website nldsdiscussions.com it's meant to every overview project is kind of working off the last one in a way so that we can call back and to look at patterns, to look at the themes of these problems. And this one is going to have a lot of those as well. And I just want to point out we've talked about this in a lot of earlier episodes, but the Book of Mormon is written in a 19th century worldview. Even Richard Bushman, who is a, you know, faithful, one of the most prominent active historians in the church, he admits that this text is best understood as a 19th century text. If you listen to Dan McClellan on TikTok, he's a great follow. He's an active member of the church, he works with the church. He says the exact same thing. He says that the Book of Mormon is best understood in a 19th century context. And you have to understand that for this episode because in the 19th century you had white settlers who came and they were trying to explain why there were these dark skinned people that were already in America before they got there. And that led to just horrible origin myths that were created to give the white settlers the justification to their to themselves is to try to take the land. And we talked about that in our surrounding influences episode. But the mound builder myth was that idea which is that these dark skinned savage people were here because they had killed off this ancient superior white race and taken the land. And they use that as justification to take the land back. And that is not a Mormon idea. That is an idea that was all around Joseph Smith. We talked about it in that previous episode. We had US Presidents who had referenced it, prominent leaders. That was a widespread, prominent belief. And you know, just to reiterate, I said at the start, this is going to be a really difficult episode. And I understand it because it was difficult for me. And I can't even imagine what it would be like hearing this episode if you are someone who is a Native American or African American, a Polynesian, because I can't imagine, I've never lived it. And it, like I said, it's hard for me. I can't even imagine how hard it is for you. So we're going to do our best to be as gentle as we can and just present the data and not try to put our life experience into it, because we can't. And then the last point I want to make is that this episode is going to cover two different kinds of race issues within Mormon scriptures, which is the Book of Mormon, which has the curse of dark skin, which would impact, like the idea that Native Americans are from Jerusalem. We're also going to talk about the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham, which then kind of elaborate on Joseph Smith's kind of evolving ideas that if you have black skin, that is also a curse from God that he writes into the Bible, into the Book of Moses, which leads to the priesthood ban. And so we're going to jump between the two just because it's obviously kind of an all encompassing theme as to how the Church presented in their Gospel topics essay. So we'll be clear when we're kind of jumping back and forth. But it is going to have. There's going to be a lot of data here and we'll go through it, like I said, as gently as we can, but also trying not to sugarcoat it.

Race and Skin Color in the Book of Mormon

John Dehlin [00:08:48] Okay, well, let's jump to the next slide, which is race and the Book of Mormon. We're going to dive right in.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:08:54] Yeah, so we're just going to jump right in. And this is obviously something that if you are familiar at all with this topic, you've seen these verses, you've seen how they've been highlighted, and I just want to read them. This is from Second Nephi, chapter five, and it says, and he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint. Wherefore, as they were white and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be Enticing unto my people. The Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God, I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto my people, save they shall repent of their iniquities and curse. It shall be the seed of him that mixes with their seed. For they shall be cursed even with the same cursing. And the Lord spake it and it was done.

John Dehlin [00:09:41] Yeah, and. Yeah, go, go ahead.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:09:44] No, no, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:09:46] Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't be able to do justice about all that's wrong with these quotes in second Nephi, the Book of Mormon. But just the association of dark with bad or ugly or loathsome and white as being good. I'm thinking about the, you know, autobiography of Malcolm X and just how, just how for centuries, just the way that we associate good with whiteness in our culture and bad or dirty or dark with, with a darker color is problematic. But then associating it with what's attractive versus not, that's both wrong and ugly and offensive. The fact that God would curse someone with dark skin to make them ugly, first of all, it's not ugly. Second of all, why would God ever do that? Make someone dark skinned so that they would be unattractive. There's just so many ways. And then that it's a curse and is a problem. And then that the curse goes across generations. Like it's basic Mormonism 101, that man will not be punished for their own sins, but for Adam's transgressions. So why is this curse lasting over multi generations? I'm guessing you're going to be covering all this in slides. But this is just, these are just early reactions that, and it's just flat out racist and repugnant.

Guest [00:11:15] So.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] And that's in the Book of Mormon today. What I don't think a lot of people realize is that the current Book of Mormon says this in 2022 and it's never been taken out. And because Joseph Smith claimed to translate this. And this is why our episodes built on each other. Because Joseph Smith, if you go to the translation episode, he claimed that he saw in his stone the words that God was sending him through the stone. He would read them off, the, the scribe would write them and read them back. So according to Joseph, these are literally God's words.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:11:48] Yeah, and we'll get to a lot of the apologetic responses of this as we go. But I think the thing is, as a convert, for me, this always bothered me. There were two things that bothered me as a member before I did the deep dive. And that was polygamy. And this, because this is something you could see in the scriptures. And it was funny because I did have people I joined in the late 90s, and you had people who would tell me, this is the history of the Native Americans. So at that point, the DNA studies hadn't really impacted kind of the way the church taught it. And so there was a part of me that always felt like, wait a second, you're going to Native Americans and you're telling them your skin is darker because your ancestors were bad people. And it's just a horrible message. And we'll get into it obviously, as we go. But this is something that, as you talked about earlier, these episodes build on each other because it's something you would expect when you have somebody writing this text in a worldview that is trying to make sense of how these Native Americans were here before they were, why they have dark skin. And so this is what you expect because you're trying to now write their origin story for them. Because once you do that, once you other them, you can then use that as a justification to take the land. And again, this is not exclusive to Mormonism. This is. This is something that was all around Joseph Smith that he used, because this actually would make sense to people in this time frame to read, because this is what a lot of people are talking about. And so the Book of Mormon makes a lot more sense to people from the 1830s than it does to the year 2022. And as John said, this is still doctrine. This is still in the scriptures. And these words. The reason I highlighted some of these words is because these words are what are going to lead to some of the horrible teachings, to some horrible ideas. I mean, this idea that and curses shall be the seed of him that mixeth with their seed, for they shall be cursed even with the same cursing that is going to be repeated by church leaders as justification for no interracial marriage. Because they believed and taught that if you got into an interracial marriage, the white person would then be cursed because they would then mix seeds and their children be cursed, and so on and so on. And it's a horrible thing.

John Dehlin [00:13:48] And my understanding is to this day, there's still existing LDS Church curriculum that discourages interracial marriage to this day.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:13:57] There are. Yeah, there are. And I think that the excuse for that is I brought this up a long time ago, and the responses I was getting was they're not saying you shouldn't marry someone from Another race. But they're saying it because your life will be more difficult if you do so, that you should stick to it. So they'll say, you know, you should marry someone from the same religion, same race. And I think they say. I think they might even have something in the. In that manual that's somewhat like the same, like, socioeconomic background or something. So their argument, which, again, I'm not agreeing with, I'm just saying that's their argument because they can no longer say what the real reason is for being in the curriculum. And it's just really. It's really hard to hear. And what's funny about that curriculum was that one bothered me as a believer. I came across something along those lines, and it bothered me because I was a convert and I had married my girlfriend, who was a member and now wife. And I remember, like, going, okay, so before I. Before I joined the church, the church would have told her, don't marry this guy. And then you see the interracial one, you're like, this is horrible. Like, you've got all of these ways that. That are telling members who they should marry based on things that really should not be impacting to that degree. And. And yeah, it's still in there today. I believe it's still on their website.

John Dehlin [00:15:07] Yeah, it is. Okay, let's go to the next slide. Taking the text of the Book of Mormon at face value.

Guest [00:15:14] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:15:15] And I've talked about this in previous episodes, and for me, I always take the text of the Book of Mormon or Joseph Smith's revelations or anything else he produced at face, because I think the moment you start to redefine what he's saying and you redefine what words mean, you are then completely changing what he was doing. And I think that you would never do that unless you had to. And so for me, if you look at this passage of face value, the curse from God caused a skin of blackness to come upon the Lamanites, so they would not be enticing to the white and delightsome Nephites. And again, the Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites, who are the people that the church believes are Native Americans today, were cursed with dark skin so that the white and delightsome Nephites would not be attracted to them, so they would not mix their seed. And so, as we talked about earlier, like people apologists will say, and we'll get into this a lot more as we go, that the curse is entirely different from the skin of blackness. And the text, they'll say the text separates the two. And I just want to point out, before we get too much further, if you really want to make that case, how does that explain the confirmation of the curse in Alma, chapter three? And so this is again from the Book of Mormon. And the skins of the Lamanites were dark according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph and Sam, who were just and holy men. And so this is confirming that having dark skin was a curse from God and that the, you know, the good people in the story are Nephi, Jacob, Jopheth and Sam, who are white. I mean, it's. You can't really make that argument without completely redefining what the Book of Mormon is. And I think that's why this is such a tricky issue for the church to talk about.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] Honestly, I think one of the biggest evidences that there's a huge race problem within Mormonism, other than it being just self evident and obvious, is that these verses can remain in the Book of Mormon. And your average white Mormon doesn't think about it, doesn't care, doesn't object. Like you read those scriptures in 2022, there should be like riots during General Conference. There should be. I mean, this is me interjecting myself here, but like it should be. It should be white people that are rioting is. Is what I'm saying, because we sh. We shouldn't stand for. I mean that, that's. Honestly, if I were to read those things, if I were to look at those things and not know anything about the Book of Mormon, I would assume it was like Ku Klux Klan literature. I would assume that it's like stuff from the 19th or 18th or 17th century. The fact that that's existing in scripture that claims to be from God and nobody's really concerned about that to me shows the next level of the problem.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:18:06] Well, I think too that if you think about it, you have. The church will do a lot of lessons where they don't really get into the verses that are problematic. And so I think a lot of people don't really think about it. And this sounds horrible to say, and I think there's a lot of truth to it though, which is that the Book of Mormon is talking about Native Americans. And I think for some reason that is something that a lot of people in the church are almost proud of, that they are bringing the Native Americans back to Christ. And it's a horrible thing because it's just not. I mean, it's. This is not historical. This is not why people's skin changes colors. I mean, all of this is just so just wrong. It's historically wrong. It's morally wrong.

John Dehlin [00:18:43] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:18:44] And I think it's just that the church tries to effectively not talk about it. It's like, if you don't talk about it, then, you know, a lot of members in the church aren't really aware of it.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] You won't make the problem worse.

Chanel [00:18:54] Maybe.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:18:54] Yeah. I think that's a big part of it, you know, and I think people should demand better. I think people should demand that either the scriptures change or the church leaders actually use their revelatory powers to get revelation to explain why it's in there. Because I do think that the fact that the church continues to push this off to apologists, as opposed to having Russell Nelson go out there and be like, this is what God is telling me is really indicative of the fact that they don't have a good answer and they don't want. The last thing they want to do is allow their leaders to go out and make a statement that can be used against them later when they're proven wrong. And that's why a lot of the leaders today don't make revelations. Because if you make a revelation about something that's going to happen, when it doesn't happen, you've got a problem.

John Dehlin [00:19:34] And also, if you overturn statements made by past prophets and revelators or if you start changing Scripture, then all of a sudden members might ask, wait, if you're changing Scripture? I mean, it wasn't a problem in our Doctrine and Covenants Book of Commandments episode. But generally, nowadays, once you start changing Scripture, members are going to start asking, are you guys just making this up as you go along?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:19:55] Yep. And then we'll get to that a lot. Because the implications of changing it are huge. And the leaders are not wanting to open that can of worm, because all of that is going to come back on them. And once you start to do that, you lose your power.

John Dehlin [00:20:07] Totally. Okay, the next slide is Dark Skin is absolutely a curse from God in the Book of Mormon.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:20:13] Yeah. And so just piggybacking off that last slide, Alma 3 confirms that the skin of blackness is a curse from God. And whether you want to call it a mark of the curse or the curse, the fact is it's part of the curse or the curse. I mean, you just can't separate the two. And so for me, if you take the Book of Mormon at face value, there's no way to get around it. And that's why I really hate this idea that you redefine words and say, well, skin doesn't mean skin. And Nowhere in Alma 3 does it mention that the curse is strictly being cut off from the Lord. But it absolutely mentions the dark skin. And if that's not clear enough, here's Jacob, chapter three. Behold the Lamanites. Your brethren, whom you hate because of their filthiness and their cursing which has come upon their skins, are more righteous than you, for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord which was given unto our Father, that they should have, save it were one wife and concubine, they should have none, and there should not be whoredoms committed among them. And I like that verse, too, because it hits on polygamy a bit. But the point is whether the. Whether the dark skin is the curse itself or a mark of the curse does not matter, because either way, God is absolutely putting. If you believe this is from God, that the curse is integral to dark skin, or dark skin is integral to the curse, so that the white Nephites in the Book of Mormon, as they say, white and delightsome, will not find them attractive. And so, however you want to, you know, try to split hairs here, dark skin is part of the curse or the curse, and the curse is being done by God to make them less attractive. You cannot get around this, and it absolutely ties into how the Church taught about Native Americans. Again, there's no getting around this. Redefining words, as we'll talk about later, only opens up more problems if you actually sit there and think about the implications of what they're doing. And so to say that skin doesn't mean skin or that dark skin wasn't the curse, it's just blatantly dishonest.

John Dehlin [00:22:00] Got it, got it. Okay, next slide. The church absolutely believed skin meant skin.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:22:08] Yeah. And so these are just two pictures that are from the church. So on the left, you can see this is obviously somewhat dark skin, which, you know, look, they have more like unsophisticated clothes. I mean, it's just very stereotypical. And guess what? It looks just like a Native American would look. Right. And so this is the Book of Mormon telling us that dark skin meant dark skin. And this is the Mormon Church putting out artwork that completely backs it up. And then on the right, this is also published by or was published by the church. And this was part of the Book of Mormon stories for children. So this was an illustrated Book of Mormon Stories for Children. And the caption says other people followed another son, Layman. They were called Lamanites. They had dark skins. And the picture shows three people with dark skins. And as we talked about, who just happened to look like Native Americans. And this is. I mean, I don't know. I don't know more to say. This is the church. You can blame the artist all you want. The artists are only working with the scriptures they have. This is what the Church taught, what they believed. There's just no way around it.

John Dehlin [00:23:09] And I'll just say that photo on the left looks familiar to me because as someone who's 53 years old in 2022, I was raised Mormon. And every Mormon that was kind of alive in the 70s and 80s had this collection of illustrated stories from the Book of Mormon, illustrated stories from the New Testament, illustrated stories from the Old Testament. It was a way for, like families to do scripture study where there were pictures for the young kids. And so these sorts of photos would have been the photos that I was raised with as a Mormon that I would have looked at and been taught as a child how to think about the Book of Mormon and scriptures and skin and race and all that. These types of photos would have been interwoven into my childhood. And they were as doctrine without any question as to how. How ambiguous things were. And so the Church can't escape a couple hundred years of indoctrination of its white people to be thinking this way, regardless of what apologists want to say now.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:24:19] Well, and all of these are going to go through a correlation department. They're all going to be approved. These are not rogue artists that are putting stuff out. These are from the church's own releases. So again, that whole idea that, oh, it's the artist having interpretations is just absolute crap because of the fact that they are being given an assignment to basically show what the Book of Mormon looked like illustrated, which is being approved by church leaders. This was something that leaders absolutely approved of because this is what they believed happened, right?

John Dehlin [00:24:45] Yep. Okay, here's another. I love mistandsunday.com it's an amazing website. Shout out to them. I'll put a link in the show notes, but you've got a visual and some quotes from Missed in Sunday School.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:25:00] And this is just a really easy way to show that the Mormon Church is starting to realize that you cannot have the racism. But the problem is they can't change the scripture, so they're changing the heading. So in 2010, the heading of 2 Nephi chapter 5 said because of their unbelief the Lamanites are cursed. Receive a skin of blackness and become a scourge unto the Nephites. So they changed that in 2010 to. Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cut off from the presence of the Lord, are cursed, and become a scourge of the Nephites. So right here you could start to see where the church is completely changing the story of the Book of Mormon to say that the curse is actually being cut off from the presence of the Lord, because obviously, you know, at this point, you're well past the point where it's, you know, extremely out of touch with society. And so they have. They can change the heading because it's a lot easier than changing the scriptures. But it does show the churches.

John Dehlin [00:25:51] But they did change it. Are we going to talk about how they actually did change the Book of Mormon later?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:25:55] Yeah, we've got a little bit in there for, like, the white and delight. Some stuff is in there too.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] Yeah. Well, so even if it's just the introductions, you know, the point there is that, you know, like you said, church committees, you know, supervised by prophet seers and revelators and apostles, we would have both written and approved those chapter summaries. And so the church doesn't get off the hook for saying it wasn't actually the text that Joseph Smith translated. It was these summaries that were written later. It's still written by and. Or supervised by prophet seers and revelators.

Guest [00:26:32] Yep.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:26:32] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:26:33] Yeah. Okay, so let's see really quickly, I think Sabrina may want to make a comment. I'm gonna. So, so let me just say that we, we did put out an invitation to some colleagues or, or friends in the community to give them a chance to kind of watch and participate. And. But we didn't want them to feel pressured, especially because it was kind of last minute. But I'm super excited that a. That one of these participants is wanting to join us and make a quick comment. Her name is Sabrina. Let's unmute you, Sabrina. And I just want to say, Sabrina, we are so glad you are here and we would love to hear what you have to say, Sabrina.

Guest [00:27:27] Yeah, absolutely. Can you guys hear me okay?

John Dehlin [00:27:29] Yeah, we hear you. Great. If you want to turn your phone sideways, it'll give us a fuller view of you. Just 90 degrees. But you don't have to.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:27:35] Yeah, you definitely don't have to.

John Dehlin [00:27:36] It's okay if you don't want to.

Guest [00:27:37] Yeah, that's okay. Sorry, I'm jumping in. I'm Working and then also listening to you guys in the background. So I'll make it quick, but just wanted to say specific to any kind of artistic representation of those in the Book of Mormon, those within the scriptures of themselves. I always find it difficult to hear that the church is willing to speak up about the misrepresentation of the darker skin within illustrations and things of that nature. When in every single church house, in every single building of the LDS Church, there are depictions of Christ with very fair skin. And so we're fine with depicting Christ in this way and fine with, you know, well, you know, making apologies about the fairness of his skin, knowing full well he's a Middle Eastern man. But we go back on the dark skins of natives represented within the scriptures that somehow this was an artistic liberty that was taken never to have fit. It is a struggle as a black person to walk into every building and instead of seeing a man that should be similar unto my skin tone, seeing a very fair man that looks as of European and then in the same breath being someone that is of, you know, that is of a minority community with quote, unquote, dark or brown skin, seeing natives depicted in this way, both, both in regard are just complete misrepresentations. And the fact that those are images that are always connected to negative things as far as like natives and in these artistic paintings and things, it's just, I can't begin to tell you how problematic it is, but also how damaging it was as a child and an adult being raised in the church. I just wanted to throw that out there. Just a personal experience.

John Dehlin [00:29:25] Sabrina, it's so powerful to have you weigh in. And I'm just going to say that if I can add, the church doesn't kind of have an excuse because I remember, you know, even from the books that I've read that in the 60s and 70s there were, let's just say, progress, progressive black Christians that would have paintings and photos of black of a, of a Jesus with dark skin incorporated into their Christian worship. So it's not, it's not like there haven't been decades of examples of people doing that with which would then be an opportunity for the church to at least change. In the 60s and 70s or 80s or even today, they could still change.

Guest [00:30:02] Right, Right. Absolutely. Totally agree.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] Yeah. Sabrina, please just text us anytime. We're going to add you right back, okay, Sabrina?

Guest [00:30:11] Okay, no problem.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] We're so happy to have you. Thanks for being willing to, to share your perspective.

Guest [00:30:17] Absolutely.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:30:18] Okay, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] All right, that was wonderful. So the next slide Is this is a view you would expect from Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon, is that right?

Book of Mormon in Its Nineteenth-Century Context

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:30:31] Yeah. And this is something we talked about in previous episodes. I mentioned the start of this episode. But as we've talked about in the overview so far, the Book of Mormon is a uniquely 19th century text which holds a lot of uniquely 19th century ideas. Such as the Native Americans were originally from Israel. A lot of people believed that dark skin was a curse that was used to. Or a lot of people then believe that the dark skin was because they were a savage race that killed off the initial white people and that was like their early ancestors, which gave them the, you know, they gave themselves a justification. And then we also had people that believed that the dark skin was a curse for people that were from, with African American descent because that gave them the justification to do slavery. And, and so you could see these ideas in the view of the Hebrews, which was written before the Book of Mormon. And as I've said before, I don't believe Joseph Smith plagiarized it, but I think that shows that those ideas of this ancient lost tribe of Israel was percolating in his area. And that is a really important footnote to show that basically that this is what you would expect to see in the Book of Mormon, knowing that the Book of Mormon was produced in 1829. So if you had told a scholar, like, what would you expect from someone writing in 1829 about how to kind of actualize religion into, you know, frontier America? I think they would, they would tell you that these are the ideas you'd see because they're so prominent to trying to basically make the, you know, 1820s America give it a Christian biblical worldview. And this is the kind of stuff that would be incorporated into it because unfortunately, the white settlers were trying to try to figure out why these people have different colored skin and ultimately do it in a way that privileges themselves over the other people who they're now going to give an origin story to. That is extremely incorrect and also just, you know, defamatory and horrific and all that stuff. So this is, it's just, this is what you'd expect to see. So if you're watching our overviews, in order to, at this point, you should go, yeah, this is what you expect to see.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] Fits the pattern.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:32:42] Yeah, it fits the pattern.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] Yeah. Yeah. And, and maybe the flip way of saying that is this is a great opportunity if the Book of Mormon is the most correct book ever written, if it's the pure, if it's better than The Bible, because it's pure in its translation and hasn't been corrupted by Catholic priests or whatever it is that we were taught monks over the centuries and, and corrupt kings. Then this was God's opportunity to say things like, for behold, we all know that Jesus, the son of man, had dark skin and that's awesome. Or for behold, I mean, there is a verse in the Book of Mormon that's often quoted saying that God, something like, God is no respecters of persons and he loves all people the same. I'm guessing you're gonna cover that later. So I'll just say we have to give the Book of Mormon a little bit of credit there. But at best it's contradicted by all the racist narratives. And instead this would have been a great place to say, for behold, slavery of any type, especially in the 19th century and in this choice land should be abolished. You know, there are all sorts of ways God could have communicated with us in our time, through prophets, through modern day revelation, to kind of like really help even just 19th century Mormons get ahead of the race and slavery problem instead of like be average or in many cases worse. And that just never. That never happens.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:34:08] Yeah, we talked about this in the Word of Wisdom episode where we said, wouldn't it be amazing if God had said, boil your water, which would have saved lives in the early church. And it's the same thing here. You have a Book of Mormon that talks about revelation and it talks about Christopher Columbus, it talks about the Revolutionary War, it talks about the colonies. Wouldn't it be amazing if the Book of Mormon then said, and soon after there will be slavery and there will be people that are in bondage. But behold, soon will come a time when this, when this land will be free for all and there will be no slavery. I mean, just something that would actually give a nod, you know, you're talking just what, 35 years later. So the Book of Mormon can't even see what's going to happen 35 years later. Those are the things that are the telltale sign of trying to date when something is written, when it knows about all these things are happening up until like 1790, I guess. And then all of a sudden the prophecies, I mean, really, the prophecies actually go all the way to 1829 because he's prophesying about the Charles Anthon visit and all that, but I mean, from a world perspective, he's giving all these prophecies about what's going to happen in America until basically Joseph Smith's lifetime. And then it's just nothing.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] How amazing would it have been for there to be a scripture? For, behold, if my nation ever. If this nation ever puts people in bondage and there's ever an opportunity to choose a side. For behold, slavery and racism is evil, and you need to get on the right side and oppose slavery. And if there be a war where the nation shall go against itself over the matter of slavery, for behold, my people will choose the side of fighting against slavery. Like, please give us something. Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:35:38] And that's just it. It's absent because of the fact that he's writing it before all of these events transpire. And so that's why all of these things are exactly what you expect to see. It's just, it's hard to read it because it's, you know, damning to the Book of Mormon and to the fact that this was the belief in the 19th century. But this is what you'd expect to see. There's no surprise here.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] Yeah. Okay, the next slide is quotes from church leaders confirming the Book of Mormon. So it adds prophetic authority to these scriptures, right? Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:36:05] Yep. So this is Joseph Smith in 1831 in a letter to W.W. phelps. He says, verily, I say unto you that the wisdom of man in his fallen state knoweth not the purposes and the privileges of my whole priesthood. But ye shall know when ye will receive a fullness by reason of the anointing. For it is my will that in time ye should take unto you wives of the Lamanites and Nephites that their posterity may become white delightsome and just for even now their females are more virtuous than the Gentiles. And what he's saying here now we'll get into this a lot more in the polygamy episode. But what this, at this point, Joseph Smith is almost teaching, almost like a concubine kind of setup, where he's saying to these people that are going to Missouri, you could take these wives of the Native Americans because you will help make their posterity more white and delights them because they'll come unto Christ. And so this is Joseph Smith telling them that basically the Lamanites are dark skinned and you need to take. Take them as wives or concubines so that you can make their skin more white. And we'll get into that a lot more in the polygamy episode. And then the second one is Orson Pratt writing about Joseph smith's teachings from 1840. And he says, but on the other hand, the Lamanites because of the hardness of their hearts, brought down many judgments upon their own heads. Nevertheless, they were not destroyed as a nation, but the Lord God sent forth a curse upon them, and they became a dark, loathsome, and filthy people. Before the rebellion, they were white and exceedingly fair like the Nephites, but the Lord God cursed them in their complexions, and they were changed to a dark color, and they became a wild, savage, and ferocious people, being great enemies to the Nephites, whom they sought by every means to destroy. I mean.

John Dehlin [00:37:44] Yeah, that's pretty. That's pretty rough stuff. I'm not going to really make comments on that. It kind of speaks for itself.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:37:51] We don't. Yeah, and that's the thing. We don't need to. And the point I'm trying to make with these quotes is. And we've got another. More of them, but these quotes are showing you that Joseph Smith and all of the early leaders of the church never ever, ever, ever, ever made any attempt to say skin doesn't mean skin, and instead went the other way to say, oh, yeah, it absolutely means skin. And if you want to go further, look at the. I didn't cover this in these slides, but look at the Doctrine of Covenants and look at the early revelations when God is telling Oliver to go preach unto the Lamanites and sends them to the. Where the Native Americans were living. Like, that's how you know they're Lamanites because you look at the color of their skin. So he's not telling them, go and look for people that have dark auras or, you know, dark demeanors. He's saying God is telling Oliver through Joseph, go preach to the Lamanites, and basically telling him, go here, because that's where the. The Native Americans are living it. There's no confusion here.

John Dehlin [00:38:43] Yeah, I'm just gonna call out the word filthy. Like, I can't think of a more repugnant word to use. Yeah, like dark and loathsome. We've already said how horrible that is. Orson Pratt's adding filthy. And I'm just. I'm disgusted by that. Along with wild and savage and ferocious. Like, think about just, you know, go watch exterminate the brutes. You know, just learn about colonialism. Just to adopt that colonial mindset that Native peoples are. Are brutal and savage. Thinking about the ways that we. That. That. That call colonizers literally committed genocide on entire. Millions of groups of people. It's just so problematic.

Guest [00:39:33] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:39:34] And again, this is perfectly 19th century. This is how people describe the Native Americans as These wild, dark skinned, some would call them red savage people who were unsophisticated like they were. And so to see it in what is supposed to be an ancient text is another easy tell that this is not an ancient text, but it's just incorporating the 19th century mindset. It's just, it's not only is it

John Dehlin [00:39:54] not an ancient text, if this is of God, then I'm not. That's not a God I want anything to do with personally.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:40:02] Yeah, that's. And that's what it comes down to too. And so this is, this is a quote from Spencer Kimball that was given at General Conference in 1960. So this is not from 1840. I know it's still like 60 years ago, but it's just a General Conference. And he says the day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome and they are now becoming white and delightsome as they were promised. In this Picture of the 20 Lamanite missionaries, 15 of the 20 were as light as Anglos. Five were darker, but equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the Hogan's on the reservation. At one meeting a father and mother and their 16 year old daughter were present. The little member girl, 16, sitting between the dark father and mother. And it was evident that she was several shades lighter than her parents on the same reservation in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather. So I'm just going to do a quick stop there. And he is literally saying that this girl is turning whiter because she's a member and it's absolutely her skin. So I just throw them. But back to the quote. There was a doctor in a Utah city who for two years had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the church are changing to whiteness and delightsomeness. One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated. So yeah, this is a prophet of the Mormon Church at General Conference showing pictures and pointing to the whiter or the lighter Native Americans and saying the reason their skin is turning lighter is because they are turning into the church, turning to the church. And because they're turning to Christ and turning to the church, their skin is turning whiter and lighter and delights him. As he said in front of our eyes, this is 1960 this is still what the Church believed. And that's why you're seeing in all the artwork, because this is what the church absolutely believed. And this is again, a prophet, a self proclaimed prophet of God, getting him and telling people in the name of God as prophet, that this is what is happening. There is no way around it that this is what skin meant. Skin.

Lamanite Identity and Native Americans

John Dehlin [00:42:13] Yep. And I'm just gonna, you know, we did an entire series on Mormon stories podcast called Losing the Lamanites where we interviewed several Native Americans to talk about their experiences with the church. We're gonna include that in the show notes. One of the most powerful episodes we have is with Sarah Newcomb, who is a dear friend. And she talks about how as a, because of teachings like Spencer B. Kimball's as, as quote, a quote, Lamanite or Native American Mormon youth, she would avoid ever being in the sun because she felt like there was a cultural expectation to, for her skin to get lighter and that all the white Mormons were looking at her and expecting her righteousness to lead to her skin getting lighter, which is its own form of self of like indoctrinating and encouraging self loathing. But it led her to do things like rub lemon on her skin, lemon juice, because she felt like maybe that would make her skin lighter and to like even in hot summer months to wear long sleeve shirts and long pants so that she wouldn't ever have her skin turn darker. So that then, you know, maybe she could help fulfill the prophecy, maybe to make her white Mormon counterparts feel better. But I'm going to include links in the show notes because that teaching that Spence W. Kimball helped perpetuate in the modern era has just caused so much pain and hardship for our Native American brothers and sisters.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:43:47] So, yeah, so here's a couple more quotes. Just I want to make sure this is clear that this is not people kind of trying to, like a lot of times the church will say skin doesn't mean skin. And you're trying to read into it what's not there. I want to make clear this is absolutely what. What the, the prophet seers and revelators believed. And so this is Apostle Legrand Richards. And he said this is. We'll actually Talk more about LeGrand in the. Later, in this episode. But he was giving this interview after the church removed the priesthood ban. And so that's important context of this quote too. He says the Lord has never indicated that black skin came because of being less faithful. Now the Indian, we know why he has changed, don't we? The Book of Mormon tells us that and he has a dark skin, but he has promise there that through faithfulness that they all again become a white and delightsome people. And the reason this quote is so important is because this is after the priesthood bandage is removed. And so LeGrand Richards is saying, basically, look, the Lord never said that black skin safe from African Americans came because being less faithful. But we do know why the Indians, Native Americans, skin color change. And so this is absolutely confirming that. Again, these apostles of the Lord believe that skin meant skin. And then Wilford Woodruff, also a prophet, said, the Lamanites, now a downtrodden people, are a remnant of the House of Israel. The curse of God has followed them as it has done the Jews, though the Jews have not been darkened in their skin as have the Lamanites. So it's just more quotes, just telling us the same thing, that the Book of Mormon absolutely is believed to be literal skin color. And that's why they preached to who they call the Lamanites, which they believed were the Native Americans.

John Dehlin [00:45:24] Yeah. Yep. Okay. Not good.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:45:29] Yeah. And so the final quote for now, we'll get more quotes later, obviously, actually, we'll give them a couple, couple slides. But this is something that the church had a pamphlet, a church published pamphlet in 1974 that they were giving to the Native Americans and the Polynesians. And it says, you Native Americans who are called Indians, your ancestors were once a mighty nation upon the American continent. The best source of true information that tells who you are, where you came from and what you can achieve is found in an important book, the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is a history of your people. The Book of Mormon tells how your forefathers came From Jerusalem about 600 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. The Lamanites were marked by the Lord with a darker skin. So this is the church published pamphlet in 1974 telling Polynesians and Native Americans that this is a history of your people and this is why you have dark skin. I mean, it's explicit as can be here.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] Yeah. And I don't think a lot of white people probably, you know, we're all proud of our heritage. We're proud. Mormons are proud of their pioneer heritage. We're proud of our, you know, if we date back to founders of the United States, I just remember, like, how many Mormons in the 70s and 80s would flex that their genealogy charts included Benjamin Franklin or Thomas Jefferson or George Washington. Just think about how proud you can be about your heritage, your culture, your identity, you know, when you know it, and then think about telling entire groups of people, giving them a false sense of their identity. It's not only telling them that they're. Their identity is wrong, their heritage is inaccurate, but it's. It's. It's giving them a false and a shameful heritage that's actually likely complete fiction. It's a travesty that I think is. Is probably a stretch for many privileged. I'll just say white people to even understand how violent and awful, you know, a teaching and a set of quotes like he just read really, really is.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:47:30] Yeah, yeah. Not only is it historically wrong, not only is it just stealing their identity. And we'll touch upon that more towards the end of the thing. So not only are you stealing their identity by telling them this is your real history, but you're creating this version of this particular person that you're preaching to and telling them that they're broken in order to sell them the solution. I think that's just as vile a thing to say. Oh, you come from this mighty nation, but you have dark skin because your forefathers fell away from Christ. And if you come back by joining the church, giving us tithing, all that stuff, your skin's gonna get whiter either here or in the next life. And I just, I feel like it's just. Not only is it bad enough to give someone a bad history, but it's even worse to sell them the solution to it. And I think those two things combined are just so horrific when you actually know the context of the Book of Mormon and how it was used to preach to the Native Americans and to the Polynesians, I just, I can't even imagine, because it's, you know, like you said, people are proud of their history, and to be told that what they believed was their history is not true because it's this Book of Mormon history, which is demonstrably not true. It's just. It's so bad.

John Dehlin [00:48:37] Yeah, it's super problematic. I'm not. I want to rant more, but I'm gonna. I'm not gonna. So, yeah, let's keep going.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:48:43] We talked about this in the DNA episode, but basically, the church makes testable truth claims the Mormon Church has made. And Joseph Smith made a lot of truth claims that we could test. And part of that's because I think Joseph Smith, you know, believe the world was going to end sooner rather than later. I mean, they prophesied about a lot of early members living long enough to see Jesus again. So they made a lot of testable truth claims. And one of them is that the Native Americans are the principal ancestors of the. Or that the Book of Mormon people are the principal ancestors of the American Indians, which they then had to change, as we talked about in that episode, to among the ancestors. Because now DNA has shown that these truth claims by the Book of Mormon are just. They're just not correct. And so the Church is like we talked about with changing the chapter heading, this is changing the introduction, so they're changing everything they can except for the scriptures, to try to account for the fact that they are absolutely on the wrong side of, you know, science and history about what the Book of Mormon is and claiming it has an ancient core. And so we already talked about this in the DNA episode, but it applies here as well.

John Dehlin [00:49:45] Yeah. And I'm going to refer everyone to the Thomas Murphy episodes. And if you want really good treatment of, you know, of the Church's history, we just did an episode with Thomas Murphy on race, and it was the Book of Mormon racist. But he also is a, you know, he's a sociologist, anthropologist, expert on Native American peoples. He's a legend. He helped. He was one of the first to uncover the DNA problem with the Book of Mormon. But I just want to recommend everyone his episodes. And the only other thing I'm going to say, Mike, and this is why I think your series is so powerful, because it builds. And we just got done doing an episode on changes they made between the 1833 Book of Commandments and the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants. And what made me just so bewildered was to see how they, like, would take a single revelation that was given in 1833 and. And, like, cut out half of its text and then add half to double the existing text. Completely rewriting revelations when it's about things like authority, right?

Changes to Book of Mormon Text and Artwork

Guest [00:50:55] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:50:56] But, like, even though I'm enraged by, you know, like I said in the past, that's not how revelation works. You don't get a revelation, write it down, and then 10 years later completely rewrite it, and then tell everybody that it's the original document. Like, that's outrageous. But I would almost rather have them do that than just say, oh, with the racist stuff in the Book of Mormon, we're just going to kind of leave that for the most part. Like, it's a little troubling that they didn't feel like this was a problem where the Book of Mormon needed to be rewritten. You know what I mean?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:51:28] Well, and remember that, you know, in 1837, they're going to change the Book of Mormon to adjust to the first vision by adding those clauses of like, the mother of the Son of God. Well, in 1837, they could have also went into these scriptures and made some clarifications to say that the curse wasn't dark skin. It was actually just being cut off from God. Like, they. They had opportunities when they changed the Book of Mormon to do this. The fact is, they didn't make those changes because they absolutely believe that skin means skin. There's. That's the problem that when you get. And we'll get into this in these next few slides, but yeah, it's. It's just. It's a bad argument.

John Dehlin [00:51:58] Yeah. Yep. It's. It just shows their priorities, you know, and the Civil Rights movement hadn't happened yet, so why would they have cared about changing the Book of Mormon back in the 1800s when most probably the members would have been offended? So it took the Civil Rights movement and all the protests of Martin Luther King and the Civil Rights act of 1964. It took all that stuff and all the Stanford protests and the Wyoming protests against byu. It just took all those protests to make the church care. But by then, it was probably too late to change the Book of Mormons.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:52:31] And that's the thing, too, with this. We're talking about Native Americans, and so we're not even talking about the priesthood stuff. And what's really, to me, to what you were just saying is the fact that if they were to change the Book of Mormon and say that the Lamanites didn't have dark skin and it was just like a darkness of an aura or a demeanor, then all of a sudden, all the early members would be like, well, then who are we supposed to bring back to Christ? Because we have no idea who these people are. Because if we're all white, then who are we? Because the Book of Mormon is meant to bring the Lamanites back to Christ. Well, if you then change the Book of Mormon to say skin didn't mean skin, then you have absolutely no idea who you're talking to.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] Yeah. How do you know? How do you know who to preach to?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:53:08] You would have no idea. And that's why, you know, skin means skin. Because the Book of Mormon, this is not. We talk about this in a lot of the episodes. This is not just the Book of Mormon. So the Book of Mormon tells us that the Native Americans were cursed with the dark skin. That's why we have them today, to preach to the Doctrine and Covenants, the revelations from God, then tell us that's who you identify from God. God identifies the Native Americans as the Lamanites because of the dark skin. So like, the revelations confirm the fact that skin means skin. And so all of these things are confirming each other. And that's why I get so tired of people saying, well, skin didn't really mean skin. Well, yes it did, because God's identifying them by their skin color in the revelation on who to preach to. For the Lamanites, this is not, this is not difficult unless you need it to be, unless you're engaging in special pleading. This is just, this is like something, you know, that I would argue like a basic, you know, high school English class could, could suss out and say, yeah, yeah, this is, this is exactly what, this fits the 19th century mode of believing of what the Native Americans were. It's, it all confirms each other totally.

John Dehlin [00:54:11] And I'm going to call an audible and I'm going to share just the title page to the Book of Mormon because for me, you know, it was five or 10 years ago that I read this really for the first time and thought about it and it was really earth shattering to me at the time. So this is from the, the current churchofjesuschrist.org website. This is the current title page of the Book of Mormon as it's read. And I'm going to skip to the second paragraph about halfway down and I'm just going to read it. And it says, which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers and that they may know the covenants of the Lord that they are not cast off forever. That is first. And then it says secondarily and also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile, which is us white people basically, that Jesus is the Christ, the eternal God, manifesting himself unto all the nations. And it wasn't until I realized. Holy smokes. The Book of Mormon was first and foremost written for Native Americans or as we used to refer to them, Lamanites. And if they are the. And that fits with Joseph Smith, the first thing he does around 1830, 1831 is sending missionaries where to the Lamanites on the frontier. And so if that's the main reason the Book of Mormon was written. And again, I want to refer people to the Thomas Murphy episode on neophytes, because that idea of converting Native Americans to Christ was not even original to Joseph Smith. It was part of an Indian or a Native American school that Solomon Spalding Ethan Smith from a view of the Hebrews, and even Hyrum Smith, Joseph's brother, they were all attending that school and being taught that the gospel, Christian gospel, needs to be preached to to the Native Americans. That's even where the idea comes from. So for someone looking for evidence, if someone's going to accept that now, it's not about skin, like you've already said, Mike, we don't know who the Native Americans are. The DNA shows that most Native Americans have blood that comes directly from Asia, not from the Middle East. Then if we don't know who the Book of Mormon was written for because we don't know who the Lamanites are, then we've got a really, really big problem.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:56:49] Yeah. And that's just it. And you know, keep in mind, again, I know we're beating a dead horse over here a bit, but when you talk about DNA, skin color is the identifying way to know who a Lamanite is. In the 1830s, they don't know about DNA. They don't know about any of that. And so that's why I'm saying if you were to change the scripture to say that the curse wasn't skin, but just like being cut off from God, if you are in the 1830s and 40s and you're one of the early church members, you'd be like, well, who in the world are these Lamanites? We're supposed to redeem unto Christ? Because you'd have no idea. You can't just walk down the streets of frontier America going, you look like you have a bad demeanor. I bet you you're a Lamanite. So it's so simple. And to your point, when the Book of Mormon tells you that the whole purpose is to bring them back to Christ, you just can't separate this without completely unraveling the entire Book of Mormon. Which is why they won't change the Scriptures and instead play these word games to try to make you think that it means something different when it clearly does not.

Guest [00:57:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:46] Okay. So I'm sure the 2020 come follow me manual solved this problem, right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [00:57:52] Yeah. So I don't know, for those of you who were around for this news story, but in 2020, the come follow Me manual is on the Book of Mormon. And so they had two different manuals. They had a printed manual and they had an online one. And this led to a big controversy because it went, I believe, in the Salt Lake Tribune or something. Someone noticed that in the printed manual, the quote from Joseph Fielding Smith said the dark skin was placed upon the Lamanites so they could be distinguished from the Nephites. And to keep the two peoples from mixing, the dark skin was the sign of the curse. The curse was the withdrawal of the spirit of the Lord. Dark skin is no longer considered to be or no longer considered a sign of the curse. And if you're watching this, you'll notice there's a lot of ellipses there for this quote. And so this quote was in the printed one. And this caused a lot of controversy because Joseph Fielding Smith is saying, without question, that skin means skin. He's saying they have darker skin. So that the Nephites, the white and delights and Nephites knew basically not to intermingle with them or, you know, have sex with them or have kids with them. So they're making this clear. Whereas on the electronic manual, they had removed this direct link between skin and, you know, skin. And so this created quite an uproar. And what I want to point out is this printed manual, this is the one that got them in trouble. Even this quote is incredibly dishonest. So the next slide I just want to show you guys, if you're watching this, it's a lot more important. So this next slide is a very long quote. And if you look at it, the parts that are in yellow is what's in the printed manual. So I highlighted every word in the printed manual. So I want to read it to you, and I'm going to. You're going to note the things that Joseph Fielding Smith said that the church did not put in the manual. That's where all those ellipses were that I mentioned. So he says the dark skin was placed upon the Lamanites so they could be distinguished from the Nephites. And to keep the two peoples from mixing the dark skin was a sign of the curse. The curse was the withdrawal of the Spirit of the Lord and the Lamanites becoming a loathsome and filthy people, full of idleness and all manner of abominations. First, Nephi, the Lord commanded the Nephites not to intermarry with them, for if they did, they would partake of the curse. At the time of the Savior's visit to the Nephites, all of the people became united and the curse and the dark skin was removed, which was its sign. Were removed. The two peoples became one and lived in full harmony and peace for almost 200 years. There were no robbers nor murderers. Neither were there Lamanites nor any manner of Ites. But they were in one, the children of Christ and heirs to the kingdom of God. And then the next subject heading is evil brought return of dark skin. After the people again fought the Lord, after the people again forgot the Lord and dissensions arose, some of them took upon themselves the name Lamanites and the dark skin returned. When the Lamanites fully repent and sincerely receive the Gospel, the Lord has promised to remove the dark skin. The Lord declared by revelation that the before the great day of the Lord shall come, Jacob shall flourish in the wilderness and the Lamanites shall blossom as the rose. The dark skin of those who have come into the church is no longer to be considered a sign of the curse. Many of these converts are delightsome and have the spirit of the Lord. Perhaps there are some Lamanites today who are losing the dark pigment. Many of the members of the church among the Catawba Indians of the south could readily pass as of the white race also in other parts of the South.

John Dehlin [01:01:12] So, I mean, mentioning skin pigment. Yeah, and. And lighter skin in 2022. 2020. That's so blatantly racist.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:01:23] Keep in mind that this quote is from Joseph Fielding Smith. But what I'm saying is that the

John Dehlin [01:01:27] 2020 including it is what I'm saying.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:01:29] They're citing it, but they're not. They're not including that. They're. Could they cut all that out with the ellipses? Because they don't want members to see the context of that quote.

John Dehlin [01:01:36] So now I see what you're saying.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:01:37] Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like they are using that quote and that's the quote that got them in trouble if they put the real quote in there, the one I just read you. Oh, my goodness. Because this is horrific. Like I said, it's like historically wrong, it's scientifically wrong, and it's just morally wrong. And yet the church puts this quote in the come following manual, which still gets even further scrubbed in the online version, and they leave out all of this context to the quote to give it a completely different meaning. Because remember, the quote in the manual says dark skin is no longer considered to be a sign of the curse. But the actual thing says the dark skin of those who have come into the church is no longer sign the curse. That is a completely different meaning. And this is where the church is outright lying to members, because they are. And we'll get into this a little bit, I actually included it in this one. By their own definition of honesty, they are being dishonest here because they are leaving out so much context here, which tells you that Skin means skin all the way down to pigment, all the

John Dehlin [01:02:34] way down to 20, 22, 2020, until they're called on it.

Guest [01:02:38] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:02:38] And then you know that. But again, why is revelation happening as a response to Internet outrage? Like, isn't that why we have profits so that they're ahead of the times versus, like having bloggers or podcasters or YouTubers or TikTokers being what drives correlation for the church. Right.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:02:59] Yeah, it's just. And the. The thing was, they said that they had change electronic one. They didn't realize the quote had gotten into the printed one, so they stopped printing it, changed it, reprinted them. But the point is, even that quote is still a very dishonest representation of what the quote was. And you cannot get around. You can't get away from this because every prophet, seer and revelator of the church confirms it until they can no longer really talk about it. And when you talk about pigment, don't even try to tell me skin doesn't mean skin. If you've got a.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] If you've got the leaders of the church, don't even. It's spiritual pigment, Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:03:32] Yeah, I mean, just. It's like, don't just stop, you know, and when apologists will tell you skin doesn't mean skin, they'll cherry pick from some ancient sources. We'll get into that a bit. But they don't give you these quotes because these quotes are telling you every. We'll get into it. But either every single prophet, seer and revelator can't discern between their own personal bigotry and worldview and the will of God. And if that's the case, why in the world should we believe a word Russell Nelson says today? Because, you know, it's the same thing today as it was then. It's just a different person.

John Dehlin [01:04:01] Right. Okay, now let's get to the Book of Moses, because we have. We've talked some Book of Mormon. What does the Book of Moses have to say about skin color?

Race in the Book of Moses and Book of Abraham

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:04:10] Yeah. And so now this is where we're going to kind of transition, because remember, the Book of Mormon is about Native Americans. The Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham are about those of African descent. So that's an important distinction to make. So the Book of Moses is Joseph Smith. When he does the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, he writes the Book of Moses, which he claims is basically like a revelation that kind of expands on Genesis. And so this are. These are two verses from the Book of Moses that Joseph Smith is going to write into the bible. So Moses 7, 8 is there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people. And then Moses 7, 22 says they were a mixture of all the seed of Adam, save it were the seed of Cain, for the seed of Cain were black and had not place among them. And so Joseph Smith is going back into this Bible revision and writing into the Bible and that people with black skin are cursed, just as he did with the Book of Mormon. And as I have talked about in previous episodes, the church has called this Joseph Smith translation divinely commissioned. And Apostle John Widtsoe called it a remarkable evidence of the prophetic power of Joseph Smith. And so this book of Moses was claimed to be given like through pure revelation. And in that pure revelation, it just happens to match that 19th century view of the curse of Cain being black skin. And this is going to lead to all of the issues that we see with the priesthood ban, because it's in LDS scriptures today.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] Yeah, and a lot of, I don't know, people that really haven't read the Bible closely don't realize that the Bible never says that Cain's curse was dark skinned. It talks about a mark, but it doesn't say what that mark is. It was Joseph Smith that made in a way the Bible or the biblical stories explicitly about racism and dark skin and a curse in Cain that comes from Joseph Smith's alleged revelations.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:06:07] Yeah, and we have talked about this in previous episodes too. But Joseph Smith takes stuff from the Bible. He cements it into his own doctrine by reinterpreting and putting it in as directly from God. And when he does that, he's misusing a lot of the Bible. We talked about that with Adam and Eve, Tower of Babel, Global Flood, long ending of Mark Thomas, all that stuff. But now, and if you listen to Bible scholars, they'll tell you that in the ancient times they did not look at race the way we did in the 1820s or 1830s. And so Joseph Smith is misreading the Bible, putting it through his modern 1830s worldview, and then cementing it into the Bible in his revisions. And so now we're believing that this is coming from the gift and power of God, that black skin is the curse from God. And that's the problem.

John Dehlin [01:06:52] Because if Jesus was dark skinned, surely he and all those people around him weren't racist against dark skin and Egyptians were dark skinned. And clearly they're not running around thinking they're cursed.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:07:03] Yeah, it's just.

Chanel Joins: Personal Experiences as a Black Member

John Dehlin [01:07:04] Anyway, I'm super Excited that we have another colleague or friend or participant who wants to join us. Her name is Chanel. Hey, Chanel, we are so happy that you offered to jump in.

Chanel [01:07:21] Of course. Yeah. I'm listening to you, you guys, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, like, wow. I was a member for 30 plus years and so to hear this being addressed now, I really don't know how I'm supposed to take that. You know, it's, you know, from a person that's been trying to address this for years and being told, hey, we're not talking about that. And then to hear people talking about it, I'm not really sure. I don't, I really don't know how to respond to that. So.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] Oh, well, Chanel, we feel, we feel sad that we have to even be having this conversation, you know?

Chanel [01:07:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:58] And it's got, it's got to be hurtful for you to even have to hear this type of stuff. That's why I was torn about even including marginalized groups or just because it's got. I can't imagine what it would feel like to even see these words up on the screen. You know what I mean?

Chanel [01:08:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:14] I'm so sorry.

Chanel [01:08:15] You know, John, I appreciate that. And the thing that people, I hope people understand, hearing, hearing you guys talk and share those words is one thing. But you're correct, feeling it from the hands from members was hard because I love these people. And to sit in congregations and sacrament meetings and different institute and then to hear people say something, especially when it came to black people in the priesth and to sit there and with my eyes big like you guys are talking about me and to be stared at, it's like, okay, I'll just take it because it's for the better good.

Guest [01:08:55] Right?

Chanel [01:08:56] You said God is that I chose this in the pre existence and God is going to bless me for going through this trial that I chose. So you kind of go, okay, yeah, you know, so, yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:09:09] And that's, and that's why we struggle because I didn't even know if I wanted to do. We didn't even know if we should do this episode because I'm. Sadly, we're not even at the worst episode. Yeah. And like there, there are slides where I was typing these slides up and I was copying and pasting quotes. I'm like, I don't want to read this because I feel awful even reading them, me verbalizing them. It's just, it's horrific. And, and, and, and, and I look at that and I'm Like, I have, obviously have never had to experience that. And so it's hard for me to even read them because I know that as much as I find them to be just horrible, I can't even imagine what it's like for anyone who has family, especially if you had family who went through it before 1978. But even after, to hear those words, it sucks because I feel like it needs to be out there. And I feel like this is a really important aspect to understanding the foundational stuff within Mormonism. But at the same time, it's just, it's really difficult because I know how much it was just made me feel sick to listen to some of the stuff and then type it up. But I can't imagine would it be like to hear it because it, you know, it didn't impact me. Well, I didn't join until the 90s, but even if I had, it didn't impact me in the same way. And I. That's. It's just, it's rough. And that's why we didn't know if we should even do the episode. But we wanted to get the info out there.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] Thanks, Mike.

Chanel [01:10:22] I'm so glad you did. It's. It's important. Awareness is everything. Awareness and being able to discuss these things is important. I mean, I always say 20 things can be true at once. And members have to understand. You need to know your history because you've got these missionaries going on missions that may deal with a person like me that can have a conversation with them about these issues. You're going to get other people that aren't going to be nice, they're not going to be pleasant, and they're not going to have good conversations. And it's going to be right for your children. So you at least need to let them know their history. But they don't want to let them know the history because some of them don't know it. And the ones that do know it don't want to talk about it because it makes them look a certain way and then they'll have to act. So if you know these things about a church that you support now, you may have to act. And a lot of people aren't ready to act because it requires a lot.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:11:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:09] Chanel, let me just ask you really quick. Were you born, born in the church or were you a convert to the church?

Chanel [01:11:16] The convert I joined in 1990 when I was 18.

John Dehlin [01:11:20] And I. Different people answer different ways of this question I'm about to ask you. Were you taught any? Were you Taught kind of some of this more harsh stuff in, in your lessons with the missionaries before you joined. And if, if the answer is no to some or all of that, I'm just, I'm dying to hear if you think you might have still joined if you had been. Because we try and talk about informed consent on Mormon stories a lot. So I'm curious if you were taught this as an investigator and if you would have joined. You think if, if you had known and you may not know, so I'm asking you to speculate a little bit.

Chanel [01:11:56] Well, I could tell you right now there's no way I would have joined because what they sold me and talked to me about was not, it was not anything about race, nothing about black people, only about that a restored gospel is here, there's a book that confirms that. And that's it. Nothing. My first experience with hearing about the things you guys are talking about now was actually at a get together with a bunch of members. So what happened was I was with some members, they love bomb me, told me all these great things. I'm 18, you know, and so I go to this members dinner and just out of the blue they started telling black jokes. And I'm like, okay, you know, I don't know what to say, I'm uncomfortable. And then just. She just says, hey, did you know you were cursed? And I was like, what? Oh, did you know you were cursed? I'm like, what do you mean? Like, I was thinking werewolf, like what do you mean? And she's like, so in the pre existence, you guys didn't choose God, you didn't choose Jesus Christ, you didn't choose Satan, you didn't choose anybody. So now you're here to prove yourself. And she said it very sweetly. She wasn't trying to hurt me, she was giving me information that she thought I should have known. And I was like, what? And so these people that I love and that have love bombed me are now telling me these things about myself and my family. And I was the only one that joined. But to hear these things, I didn't know what to do. I was already a member. It was about maybe two or three months in, and I'm sitting here going, wait, what? And so I believe them because I believe the feelings I had when I joined, right? You know, they tell you it's that feeling you get. So if the feeling I get is true, then what they're saying has to be true. And that's what God wants. And I have to accept that. It was painful and uncomfortable but who am I to question God, right?

John Dehlin [01:13:52] Yeah.

Chanel [01:13:53] You know, that's so powerful. Yeah. Who am I?

John Dehlin [01:13:56] And Chanel, you're reminding me of an episode I did with Darren Smith early on in Mormon Stories where I'm like, why has any person of color ever joined Mormonism ever? And Darren's response was, if you want to find a church that isn't racist in America, you're probably not going to find a church at all. And that. So that idea of you having to sit with that racism, knowing that especially if you aren't in certain, let's just say Southern, Southern states, you're not going to have the option of attending a non racist Christian church. You won't even have the option. I'm just, I'm sitting with how heavy it is that you had to experience that in a place that you would have assumed would be safe, you know, and representing Christ. Right. Or God. That. That's just it just, I'm just feeling heavy for you, you know, and respectful and I'm respecting you, you know, Appreciate that.

Chanel [01:14:52] I think, John, I think the hardest thing for me is when I try to ask questions. I remember I have an 18 year old brain and I'm trying to ask people that I trust because I couldn't ask my family, they weren't having it. And I would say, hey, Bishop, I have a question. So they said, I'm cursed. And they said, this is going to happen and this and that. So what? Like, is it true? Or. And I would get told, you know, spirit of contention, don't ask those questions. You've already know the answer, you've already had a witness. And so I would back down, I would, I stopped asking. And then as years went on with dating and being told, hey, you're great and you're wonderful, but you can't date her sons. And then asking the bishop, like, is this true? Are we not supposed to mix? Like, I don't know any black people. You're telling me you need to marry a black man. And they would say, you know, you need to go find a black man. I'm like, from where? They're like, well, you can have a black man, you know, baptized into the church. Or I'm sure there's wards out there that have black people. And I'm like, okay, where? So I need to leave where I'm living to go find somebody. Because you said to get into the celestial kingdom, I have to be married in the temple. You tell me I can't marry your sons, your uncles, your brothers, whoever, and I gotta go find somebody. Okay. What is wrong with me just dating somebody in the church? You said if they're a member, I'm a member. Then why isn't that a enough? Yeah, well, man.

John Dehlin [01:16:21] Yeah, Judd.

Chanel [01:16:22] I'm telling you. I'm telling you, I don't. I don't think people understand. I loved these people, but they're telling me every time I turn around that you're less. Sorry, but you're less. We love you, but you're less. How do you love me if I'm less? How do you love me if you keep telling me that everybody at the party can have a piece of cake and I can't because they're all wearing red shirts and I have a green shirt, and I can't help it because that's the only shirt that I have, and you're telling me. I'm sorry. Green shirts. You can't have cake. We can, and we're going to eat it in front of you. And then, not only that, they're saying, you have to have cake, but you can't have any. So I'm like, what do I do? And I don't have any support because I'm 18. I don't know anybody else my age that understands what I'm feeling. But I'm been told more and more and more that the pie might have one sliver that's bad. You're not going to throw away the whole pie, are you? And I'm like, well, no. And they said you just take the bad part out and throw it away and you eat the rest of the pie. So I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:17:27] Yeah, well, Chanel, this episode is just infinitely better because you are willing to join and share a lived experience. And, Mike, we talk about these scriptures and these quotes and these doctrines, but if we don't share the lived experience of how it filters down to the. To the member, then. Then it just doesn't. It doesn't really reach the ground. So.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:17:52] No, I agree.

John Dehlin [01:17:53] So, Chanel, listen, stay on as long as you want. And anytime you want to join back in, you just make a. Make a chat there. Same with. With Tanner or Sabrina or anyone else who's joined. We want you. We want you all to join us and to keep providing commentary. Is that all right? Chanel? Anything else you want to say for now, Chanel?

Guest [01:18:09] Yeah.

Chanel [01:18:11] What's that?

John Dehlin [01:18:12] Anything else you want to share for now?

Chanel [01:18:15] What'd you say, John?

John Dehlin [01:18:16] Anything else you want to share for now, or

Chanel [01:18:20] one last thing, and then I'm going to go get my grandson, please. What I think is important for people to understand, first of all, skin is skin has nothing to do with countenance. That's been proven over and over. Number two, I couldn't understand for the life of me how members were so blatantly racist in the beginning. And then I thought, part of it. I'm not excusing them, but part of it is not their fault. Between Ezra Taft Benson and Kimball and Joseph Fielding Smith and Brigham Young, the worst pushed it and pushed it and blatantly taught it. How could they get away from it? And it trickled down from generations and to generations to generations. What are they supposed to do? Like, how. How they can't get away from it? And then you have Ezra Taft Benson, who was against civil rights. He said civil rights equated to communism. So I don't. I understand why people don't like Black Lives Matter and why they don't like civil rights or they think these things. Their leaders have been telling them for years to think these things. So I hope that as you guys continue to make awareness videos and people are able to actually have conversations about this, then. Then we have a chance. So I appreciate you having me on, and I. I'm looking forward to listening to more. Thank you so much.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:19:41] Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [01:19:42] Thank you, Chanel, we are so honored that you joined us, and thank you. Maybe we'll have you back on Mormon stories. Maybe we'll have you back on Mormon stories to tell your full story, but we could talk about that after.

Chanel [01:19:51] Let me know.

John Dehlin [01:19:52] All right, thank you. Thanks, Chanel. Okay, Mike, I feel like I cut her off right at the very end there. I feel bad about that, but.

The Priesthood and Temple Ban on Black Members

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:20:02] Yeah, so I know it's always tricky when you're trying to transition, and. But, yeah, and it's tough because, you know, that's. That's the whole thing. Like, we're talking about these. These issues and these quotes, and it's gonna. It's gonna get a lot worse in a bit. And. And. And I remember I'm putting these slides when I. It's funny, when I done the website, I knew this was a very emotional topic, but for some reason, doing that, like, with just text is a little bit easier. But, like, knowing that we have to actually recite these quotes is just so tough because they're horrible. And I know that things were different then, but it also, as we talked about already, this was a chance for the church to rise above that, the milieu they were in. And they didn't do it, and they Actually were much worse than a lot of people. So it's not even just that they just went along with it. They actually made it worse. And, and they made choices. And we're going to go through those because they made choices that they could have gone either way on and they chose the wrong way. And those have implications. You cannot just say that it was the mistakes of men.

John Dehlin [01:21:01] Let's jump to the Book of Abraham.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:21:03] Yeah. So we talk about the book of Moses. And so the book of Abraham was written after the book of Moses. And in the Book of Abraham, Joseph Smith is now going to kind of use. We talked about the curse of Cain that Joseph Smith writes into the book of Moses, the book Abraham, he's going to write the curse of Ham. And those were two different kind of theories that were used in Joseph Smith's lifetime basically to justify slavery. So in the Book of Abraham, it starts in chapter one, verse 24, it says, when this woman discovered the land, it was underwater, who afterwards settled her sons in it. And thus from Ham sprang the race which preserved the curse in the land. Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah through Ham. Therefore my father was led away by their adultery. So this is the justification for the priesthood ban is written into the Book of Abraham because Joseph Smith is saying that those people that are of African descent, which in the Book of Moses was kind of the curse of Cain, now we're seeing Curse of Ham. He's saying that that group of people with black skin is going to settle be the first settlers into Egypt after the flood, after the global flood. And again, we realize that this is not historical in any way, but then he's going to write into it the priesthood ban by saying Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of priesthood, is making it doctrine in the church. This is doctrine that those that the church said were cursed with dark skin through the curse of Ham or the curse of Cain could not have the right of priesthood. So this is your priesthood ban that is still doctrine today. This is where it comes from.

John Dehlin [01:22:35] Yeah. And you think about like in Mormonism, there's the standard works Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Grace Price, which is made a book of Moses and Book of Abraham. We've already, you know, and of course, Joseph, we can't make him responsible for the Bible, but the Bible's less racist than the others. First of all, it seems, or at least in some ways. But then we've got the Book of Mormon. You know, if I'm counting Book of Mormon, Book of Moses and Book of Abraham, Joseph is writing explicit racism, dark skin, curse language into all those three. The only one that I'm waiting to hear about is the Doctrine and Covenants. And I don't know if you're including that, but I don't know if we do actually. Yeah, okay, so three out of four, you know, Joseph is, is writing dark skinned curse into Mormon, the Mormon canon, which is a problem.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:23:26] I mean, it's just, it is one of those things where it's like, you know, we talked about this with the Book of Mormon. This is what you expect from somebody who's writing a religious theology in the 19th century. Because the curse of Cain and the curse of Ham are both very hot topics because they're being used to justify slavery, to justify the harsh treatment of those that are coming with African descent. I mean, this is exactly what you'd expect. And as I said, they made choices. Joseph Smith made choices when writing these out and he chose to go with what was kind of the common belief, which was that those slaves and those, well, I mean, they weren't really coming here on, I mean some probably were coming here on there, but a lot of people that were coming here on these slave ships were that the, the people who own them were justified. Because he's writing into the Bible that, that they, their forefathers had a curse which kind of goes against the whole problem of, you know, sins of the Father. But I'm just it, this is 19th century right into what he's claiming are ancient scriptures. And as we've talked about once, you can show they're not historical, which we've done over and over again. And as I've said, Richard Bushman, Dan McClelland, a lot of people will say these are best understood in 19th century context. This makes a lot more sense. Doesn't make it any easier, it just makes more sense because this is what you expect, right?

John Dehlin [01:24:43] And I think if you try and make an explanation for why it took the Mormon Church until 1978 to make the changes, part of the explanation has to be that three out of four of the scriptures that Joseph produced codified the ban. And that's probably why there's at least two signed first presidency statements in the mid 20th century calling the priesthood ban on, and the temple ban on, you know, black members of the church doctrine. And that's gotta be why there was so much resistance and so many First Presidency utterances because they knew that they were dealing with Joseph Smith produced pure scripture.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:25:31] Yeah, because we'll see it when we go through the apologetics. They want to tell you this story with Brigham Young. It did not. These verses in the Book of Abraham are outright saying that Pharaoh is because he has African descent, or the curse of dark skin, the lineage by which he cannot have the right of priesthood. I mean, it's in there. And so it just shows. And so these next two slides are also kind of a little bit on the Book of Abraham. And just to further illustrate that Joseph Smith is incorporating the ideas around him with regards to the fact that skin meant skin. This is the facsimile 3 of the book of Abraham. And obviously, we'll go into this in so many more details in the Book of Abraham episodes. But Figure 6 is on the right. And this is what Joseph Smith translate is Alum La, a slave belonging to the prince. And the actual translation of this, the real translation, is Anubis, guide of the dead, with literal Egyptian characters above the head. That confirms that this is Anubis. So this is Anubis, the guide of the dead. But Joseph Smith sees a figure that is black and assumes it's a slave because that's the mindset he had. That's the worldview he had. I mean, it's just. It's just what it is. It's kind of hard to get around that. And the next.

John Dehlin [01:26:40] I have to. And I have to shout out to Robert Rittner. There's an amazing series on Mormon Stories podcast where we. Where we interview the late Dr. Robert Rittner, who was the only, I think, endowed chair of Egyptology in the Western Hemisphere. He's a legend in Egyptology and in commentary on the Book of Abraham. And I'm just going to include that in the show notes for. For anyone who wants to see it, because it's legendary. But what's the second slide about?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:27:06] So the second slide we'll just do real quick. And this is something that Paul Osborne found. And so if you look at the original woodcut of the facsimile 3 plate, it really looks like the original woodcut had the snout of Anubis, which is how Anubis would have been drawn on these. These facsimiles, which is kind of have, like a snout, and it looks like they chiseled off the snout in order to make it look human. And it just shows that Joseph Smith is calling this figure a slave, even though it had the snout of Anubis. And it looks like he's had the woodcut changed to make it look more human to meet his translation of it being a slave. And so it's just all of this stuff fits into this 19th century idea that black skin is justified and that this would be a slave if it was on an ancient papyri. And.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] And for those who can't see, imagine, imagine kind of Egyptian, Egyptian figure of like a jackal. So it's like a dog. It should be a dog head on a human body. That in, you know, that doesn't really have color. Right. It's like a gray Image. But. But Dr. Rittner talked about how somebody must have chiseled off the snout of the dog, of the. Of the jackal dog, Anubis, so that they could make it look like a black slave so that then they could have a justification for writing the curse of Cain into the book of Abraham. It's just. It. You just. You can't make this stuff up.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:28:35] Yeah, it's just like, you know, this is something where. And I guess you could never prove for sure. But it looks, if you look at the woodcut, and I have higher resolution on the website and there's links to more higher resolution, those markings match perfectly where the snout of Anubis would be because it should have a jackal head and it doesn't. And that change to the woodcut allows it in the printed version to match Joseph Smith's translation, which obviously goes in the Book of Abraham. And so all of this stuff is just showing that Joseph Smith is willing to change material around him to fit the theology he's presenting. But unfortunately, in this case, it's a really harmful one that is going to have implications for, you know, well, even through today, really. So, I mean, it's just. This is problematic.

John Dehlin [01:29:15] Super problematic. Okay, next slide.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:29:18] And so we talked about this a little bit earlier. You know how they. They made some. Some kind of artificial changes to the Book of Mormon. In that chapter heading for Second Nephi, they removed the phrase skin of blackness, and then they change it to the Lamanites are cut off from the presence of the Lord and are cursed. We talked about that earlier. In Mormon Chapter 5, they changed the chapter heading from the Lamanites shall be a dark, filthy and loathsome people to because of their unbelief, the Lamanites will be scattered and the Spirit will cease to strive with them. Because obviously it got too offensive to basically say that that's how they describe Native Americans. And then in 1981, three years after the ban on Blacks was lifted for the priesthood. The church quietly changed the phrase white and delightsome to describe what would happen to dark skinned people who came unto Christ too pure and delightsome. And so these are changes that are being made to try to soften the, you know, what I would call explicit racism in the Book of Mormon to try to make it a little bit more palatable. And, and the last one, I believe apologists will say that Joseph Smith had made some of those changes in the European version of the Book of Mormon, but then there's other references that weren't changed. So in 1981, the US church finally got around to making that change.

John Dehlin [01:30:30] And I'm just gonna, you know, I'm just gonna say obviously two things. Number one is why in the heck. This is an obvious point. If Joseph read the Stone and the Stone said word for word, why would there ever be need to be changes to the Book of Mormon? But there's also another question that's just as outrageous. Why did they change some of those super racist passages in the Book of Mormon and then leave a bunch of others that were super racist? Like if you're going to, if you're going to change them, change them all. Don't leave still all the damning ones that you mentioned earlier. And I just, I would love to talk to somebody on the inside about why they didn't take it all the way, but they didn't.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:31:07] Yeah, no, it's true. And I think John Larsen made the point once because he was talking about how you go back in the Book of Mormon, they make some of the changes to try to separate the Godhead. And then it's almost like at some point Joseph Smith just got tired of making the revisions and they just kind of stop. It's one of those things where they made some changes here, not in other places, and almost feels like there's just

John Dehlin [01:31:25] too much racist stuff here. I don't have time to fix it all.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:31:28] Well, yeah, because you know, the thing is they're trying to soften the racism. They're trying to soften or they're trying to split God and Jesus into two separate beings. As we talked about in the first Vision episode, you have a lot of changes and it almost seems like that project was pretty cumbersome. And it's almost like they made some and then just didn't get done with it. And that's why you have those. Because apologists will say, see, they made these changes like, well, they didn't change. You know, they made some but not, not most of them. And so you're still leaving the underlying problems in there.

John Dehlin [01:31:53] Right. Okay, so. So the next one is about, like, if we have prophetess and revelators, surely they're ahead of the times on slavery, because enslaving a human has to be one of the most detestable things, other than murder or genocide, that we've ever experienced.

Chanel [01:32:11] Right?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:32:12] Yeah. And this is one of those things, you know, you hear all the time. The church will say, well, Joseph Smith actually came out against slavery. And what they neglect to mention is that Joseph Smith actually kind of took both sides at different times. And so this is Another graphic from missinsunday.com, which just highlights that all of these prophets of the church all believed in slavery and all justified it. And it just shows that for over 120 years, the gift of discernment failed every single Mormon prophet. And once you realize that there is no difference between discernment and personal worldview of these prophets, you can kind of understand why they make so many mistakes. But you also can understand that this is not coming from God. And so what they're pointing out in this graphic is dnc. It says, whether by my own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. So what he's saying is these prophets speak for God. And so you've got Joseph Smith saying, the first mention we have of slavery is found in the Holy Bible, pronounced by a man who was perfect in his generation and walked with God. So they're justifying slavery by saying it's basically a perfect man. So you know, it's good, or at least it's justified. Brigham Young, of course, is famous for saying, inasmuch as we believe in the Bible, inasmuch as we believe in the ordinances of God, in the priesthood, in order and decrees of God, we must believe in slavery. David O. McKay says, the seeming discrimination by the church towards the Negro is not something which originated with man, but goes back into the beginning with God. So he's putting all of the racism directly on God, and that is a prophet. And George Albert Smith says, from the days of the prophet Joseph, even until now, it has been the doctrine of the church, never questioned by any of the church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the gospel. And so you've got four prophets all telling you that this is doctrine, that this is the belief that this is justified. And it just shows you that discernment, if discernment is real, then one of these prophets would have gotten the message from God and said, guys, this is, this is horrible. We got to change, change course. And they don't do it.

John Dehlin [01:34:09] I'm guessing you're going to mention, and maybe you won't, that that Brigham Young, when he's over the Utah Territory, not only are slaves brought here, but I think slavery is legalized when Brigham Young could have outlawed it.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:34:22] Yep. I will admit. Yeah, it's definitely in there.

John Dehlin [01:34:24] Okay, okay. Sorry, that's just a teaser.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:34:26] No, it's fine. It's a good. And it's something we need to keep mentioning.

John Dehlin [01:34:28] So it's a teaser. Okay, next slide.

Church Leaders on Race, Slavery, and Interracial Marriage

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:34:31] And so this is. We just referenced on the last page, but I just want to read this because this is in 1947. And this is a letter from the first presidency of the Church with President George Albert Smith. And they were doing a back and forth of correspondence with Dr. Lowery Nelson, who had issues with the ban on those with black skin to the priesthood and temples and exaltation. And this letter says, from the days of the prophet Joseph, even until now, it has been the doctrine of the church, never questioned by any of the church leaders, that the Negroes are not entitled to the full blessings of the Gospel. Furthermore, your ideas as we understand them appear to contemplate the intermarriage of the Negro and white races, a concept which has heretofore been most repugnant to most normal minded people. From the ancient patriarchs till now, God's rule for Israel, his chosen people, has been agnamius. I don't know how to say that modern Israel has been similarly directed. We are not unmindful of the fact that there is growing tendency, particularly among some educators as it manifests itself in the area toward the breaking down of race barriers in the matter of intermarriage between whites and blacks. But it does not have the sanction of the Church and is contrary to church doctrine.

John Dehlin [01:35:45] Endogamous. Endogamous.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:35:48] I don't know how that goes.

John Dehlin [01:35:48] I don't even know what that word means.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:35:49] We should go endogamous. That probably how it go. But yeah. So this is just saying the priesthood ban, they're calling doctrine. And the church's stance against interracial marriage is also church doctrine. And this is from the First Presidency. So this is another area where, you know, we have the. There's a quote from Dallin Oaks where he says something like, you know, in a church of ongoing revelation, I don't know that we can distinguish between policy and doctrine. This is showing you that if you want to start saying that the Church leaders can't understand what is doctrine versus what is policy, you've got bigger problems. You can't just say these are just imperfect men doing the best they can and then ignore the fact that they're doing it in the voice of God. I don't know how, I can't say that strongly enough.

John Dehlin [01:36:30] And for those who weren't raised Mormon or don't understand the subtleties here, for 150 years it was very clear what Mormon doctrine was and wasn't. And you would have books like Doctrines of Salvation or Mormon doctrine that was read by every Mormon family and in every Mormon household, where all of these things were taught as doctrine. It was just, it was just never a question. And, but, but then as these, with modern sensibilities, with the civil rights movement, with the Internet, you know, with just progressive movements, you see the Church being shamed for being behind the times on women, on people of color, on LGBT people, or even on polygamy. And so you'll see the Church needing to change. And all of a sudden what was completely understood as doctrine by generations all of a sudden is downgraded to like policy or the opinions of prophets. But what also I think a lot of people don't understand is that when apologists have tried to kind of do the brethren's heavy lifting for them and characterize what's doctrine, there's always this kind of hierarchy where it's like, well, if it's just an opinion given, not a General Conference, well, that's for sure not doctrine. You know, even if it's an apostle or a prophet. But then it's like, well, if it's a statement made in General Conference that's kind of published by the Church, well, maybe that's inching more close towards doctrine. But then you would get, well, a statement that isn't signed by the First Presidency. Well, but if it's signed by the First Presidency, that's for sure doctrine. And then of course, if it's in the Scriptures, by definition that's doctrine. And in, in this case, the reason why this quote is so significant is because it is literally a signed statement by the First Presidency, which by all accounts makes it doctrine. It says it's doctrine. And now with the Race and the priesthood essay in 2014, 2015, the church wants to say it was the opinions of men, but that's just a bait and switch. That is, it's outrageous and, and unacceptable.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:38:47] Yeah, it's just dishonest. And it's obviously dishonest.

John Dehlin [01:38:50] Yeah, that's a Little context. And we've had episode we recently had. There was an episode on Rami Umtum Ruminations, which is a podcast supported by the Bill Real Network, where an insider to the church just acknowledged that in 2022, the top Mormon church leaders have almost no idea what is Mormon doctrine anymore. Obviously, God's Mormon doctrine, Jesus's Mormon doctrine, the Book of Mormon is Mormon doctrine in some way, maybe not historical. Joseph Smith is a prophet. The only thing that's truly Mormon doctrine these days is the Mormon Church's claims to authority and God and Jesus and almost everything else is negotiable. And we'll try and leave a link to that episode. So, anyway, on to the next slide.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:39:39] This is one of those things we mentioned this. We kind of hinted at this and talked about a little bit earlier. But, you know, the church wants to always talk about it as a priesthood ban. And I understand that it was, you know, technically a priesthood ban, but the problem is the implication of that is much more broad because it was also banned on receiving what we were told that we need the saving ordinances that every member of the church is told from the time they're born that they need to do, get married in the temple, hold the priesthood, or if you're a woman, marry a priesthood holder. And then by doing all of those things, getting sealed in the temple, you could be with your family to get together forever. When you make the priesthood ban on members with black skin or African descent, you are taking away their chance at exaltation. You're taking away their chance of being together after we die. And they even taught that if you were to get to the celestial kingdom, it would only be as a servant. So these are horrific implications. And one of the things that I find really frustrating is that in the church essay, they kind of talk about how there were people that were getting the priesthood before while Joseph Smith was alive. And that is true. But there's the story of Jane Manning James that they use a lot to talk about how she was a daughter of a free slave. This is from Russell Ballard. He said among those first saints to arrive in Utah was Jane Manning James, the daughter of a free slave, a convert to the restored Church, and a most remarkable disciple who faced difficult challenges. But what they don't tell you is that they treated her like crap. So she was a faithful member. And then what happened was she wanted to be sealed in the church and they wouldn't let her do it. So then she wanted to be sealed to Joseph Smith as like a polygamous wife so that she could be at least sealed to him to get to the celestial kingdom. And then they met, and they said the only way they would do it is to seal her to eternity for Joseph, but as a. Basically as a. A servant, you know. And so this is from the Salt Lake Temple adoption record book, and it says Jane was attached as a servitor for eternity to the prophet Joseph Smith, and in this capacity, be connected with his family and be obedient to him in all things in the Lord as a faithful servitor. So not only would they not let her get sealed, you know, to someone maybe she loved, they would only seal her to Joseph, but only as a servant. And then on top of all of that, they wouldn't actually let her go into the temple to do it. They had a white proxy go in for her. And so it's just. It's a horrific story, and yet you won't see that in church records, because it's just. It just shows you that even though they gave her this little bit of something to seal to Joseph as a servant, they wouldn't even let her go in to do it. It's just. It's a horrible story that is so badly, you know, mis. Misrepresented by the church today. And it's a really difficult one because she was very faithful, but yet at the same time, this should not have happened.

John Dehlin [01:42:32] Yeah, and it's tricky for the church because they don't have a lot of faithful black early church members that they can reference. And so how do you mention Jane Manning James in a glorified, laudable way without mentioning the fact that she was literally sealed in a Mormon temple or through Mormon priesthood, power to Joseph as a slave. It's like if you pick up one side of the stick, you have to pick up the other side of the stick. And it's disingenuous to try and pick up half the stick, you know?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:43:07] Yeah, it is.

John Dehlin [01:43:07] When you just want a PR moment to kind of say, hey, we're not racist. Look, we have pioneers who were faithful. Tell the whole story, right? Tell the whole story.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:43:18] Yeah, tell the whole story. And, like, this is one of those things you see often with the church, which is where they'll throw Brigham Young directly under the bus. They'll run him over 50 times before they let that bus get to Joseph Smith. And so they're doing this to privilege Joseph Smith to say, hey, Joseph allowed them in the church. So it really wasn't a Joseph Smith thing. But the problem is, we talked about Joseph Smith is the one that, whether you believe it was through God or through Joseph, produced the scriptures that ultimately were the foundation for the ban. So you can't have it both ways on that. And, you know, it's just. It's like you said, it's. It's a. You know, they had that Emma and Jane movie, which I never saw, so I can't really speak to it, but the Church has. I've seen a lot of articles about how faithful she was, but they don't tell you, you know, what they, you know, made her go through just to be sealed as a servant to Joseph, which, you know, is something that I would have never known as a member.

John Dehlin [01:44:02] Yeah, absolutely. All right. The lifting of the priesthood ban is next.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:44:07] Yeah. And so this is one of those areas where this was, for me as a member, I was. One of the first things that bothered me was polygamy in this. And I remember I asked a question about this because it bothered me, and I'm like, why in the world did they ban people with black skin from the priesthood? And I was told the Church wasn't ready for it yet and that God knew that if he allowed them to have the priesthood when he did, at that time, it would have basically been the downfall of the Church. That's what I was told. And then they described the lifting of the ban as this grand revelation. And so this is from the Church's essay on race and priesthood. This revelation on the priesthood, as it is commonly known in the church, was a landmark revelation and a historic event. Those who were present at the time described it in reverent terms. Gordon B. Hinckley, then a member of the quorum of the 12, remembered it this. There was a hallowed and sanctified atmosphere in the room. For me, it felt as if a conduit opened between the heavenly throne and the kneeling, pleading prophet of God who was joined by his brethren. Every man in that circle, by the power of the Holy Ghost, knew the same thing. Not one of us who was present on that occasion was ever quite the same after that, nor has the Church been quite the same. And so keep that in mind, because these next couple slides, we're going to go over what led to the lifting of the ban and what the revelation actually was.

The 1978 Reversal of the Priesthood Ban

John Dehlin [01:45:20] Okay. Yeah. So for those who don't know, in 1978, the church reversed its temple and priesthood ban. So let's hear the explanation as to how and why the band was lifted.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:45:32] Yeah. We mentioned a quote from Apostle Legrand Richards earlier about the Book of Mormon and in that quote, he had talked about how they never said that black skin for those of African descent was because of disobedience to God. And this is from that same interview. And so I'm going to read you the transcript because this is really important. And so the interviewer is. I don't know if it's Wes Walters. It might be, but it's someone named Walters. And he says, or it could be Barbara Walters. No, it's definitely not Barbara Walters.

John Dehlin [01:46:02] It's probably Wesley Guy.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:46:04] Yeah. Yeah, she could have done it. Yeah, it's only like 20, 40 years ago. But so he says, on this revelation of the priesthood to the Negro, I've heard all kinds of stories. I've heard that Christ appeared to the apostles. I've heard that Joseph Smith appeared. And then I heard another story that Spencer Kimball had had a concern about this for some time and simply shared it with the apostles, and they decided that this was the right time to move in that direction. Now, are any of those stories true, or are they all. And this is Apostle Legrand Richards. Well, the last one is pretty true. And I might tell you what provoked it in a way. Down in Brazil, there is so much Negro blood in the population that it. That it's hard to get the leaders that don't have Negro blood in them. We just built a temple down there. It's going to be dedicated in October. All of those people with Negro blood in them have been raising the money to build that temple. And then if we don't change, then they can't even use it. So Brother Kimball worried about it, and he prayed a lot about it. He asked each of us of the 12 if we would pray, and we did, that the Lord would give him the inspiration to know what the will of the Lord was. And then he invited each one of us into his office individually because, you know, when you are in a group, you can't always express everything that's in your heart. You're part of a group, you see. So he interviewed each of us personally to see how he felt about it, and he asked us to pray about it. And then he asked each of us to hand in all of the references we had for or against the proposal. See, he was thinking favorably towards giving the colored people the priesthood. So if you go to the next slide.

John Dehlin [01:47:28] Okay.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:47:28] And then he says, then we had a meeting where we meet every week in the temple, and we discussed it as a group together. And then we prayed about it in our prayer circle. And then we held another prayer circle after the close of that meeting. And he, President Kimball, led in the prayer, praying that the Lord would give us the inspiration that we needed to do the thing that would be pleasing to him and for the blessing of his children. And then the next Thursday we meet, every Thursday the Presidency came with this little document written out to make the announcement, to see how we feel about it and present it in written form. Well, some of the members of the 12 suggested a few changes in the announcement. And then in our meeting there, we all voted in favor of it. The 12 and the presidency. One member of the 12, Mark Peterson, was down in South America. But Brother Benson, our president, had arranged to know where he could be reached by phone. And right while we were in that meeting in the temple, Brother Kimball talked with Brother Peterson and read him the article, and he approved of it. And then Walter says, now when President Kimball read this little announcement of paper or paper, was that the same thing that was released to the press? And Richard says, yeah, Walter says there wasn't a special document as a revelation that he had and wrote down. And then Richard says, we discussed it in our meeting. What else should we say besides that announcement? And we decided that was sufficient, that no more needed to be said. And, and so effectively, what Legrand Richards is saying here is that it wasn't really like a revelation like we're always taught in the church. This was about a bunch of meetings. And then they finally wrote a statement down, and then all the apostles got to make some changes if they, if they felt like it was necessary. And then they basically voted on it, approved it, and then released it. And so it's not to say that you can't say there's any revelation. There could be inspiration that led to writing the statement, but there was no grand revelation where it said, you know, I, God, now command you to, you know, remove the restriction. None of that. This is a, basically a statement that was created to solve a problem with the Brazil temple. And so outside forces force this change. But, you know, this just is not, when you call it a grand revelation, you think of it as the same way as the DNC revelations. This is not that. This is a statement that is being edited by people over a course of a few weeks, voted on and then released. And I think that's a much more watered down version of the way we're taught that the way the church teaches it happened is a much grander way of framing it.

John Dehlin [01:49:45] Yeah. And you just have to, you know, again, like, it's so important for the church and its leaders to dispel any opinion by the members that, you know, prophet seers and revelators, first presidency members of Mormon apostles are influenced by social, social progress or activists, you know, protesters, progressive agendas, etc. You know, the, the polygamy, the polygamy ban was from God. It wasn't because our assets were being seized and we were being incarcerated. And, and you know, it wasn't Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and, you know, Rosa Parks and all the courageous protesters and civil rights leaders who helped make the change, you know, because the brethren don't cave to the wills or the protests of the common people. But, but here they're saying, oh, you know, we were bothered by, by the ban for 150 years and the fact that an entire continent, almost an entire continent of Africa was excluded, you know, along. Not to mention with all the African Americans in the United States, them being excluded wasn't a problem. People, you know, you know, black Americans in Alabama and Mississippi and Florida, in Louisiana, you know, that's not a problem. But dang it, we just had all these Latin American, you know, saints that incidentally, they believed were Lamanites that were getting baptized in Africa. And I think they realized that they had dipped their toe too deeply in the water because once you start baptizing Brazilians, you know, it was an opinion that if they even had a drop of African blood, they could never have the priesthood. But you start baptizing Brazilians, let alone pretty much all humans, once you read the DNA and then you give them the priesthood, there was some point where they realized, holy smokes, we've already given people with African blood the priesthood. And by that point they had dipped their toe too much in the water and there was no turning back. But, you know, it's kind of outrageous because number one, they're clearly caving to social pressure. Number two, they, they weren't disturbed until they were. There's no explanation for why, you know, the band didn't bother them for other reasons. And then they're just like all agreeing and praying about it. And you've got, you know, there's an amazing book by David O. McKay called David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism. And what you find out in that book is that Hubie Brown, who was a First presidency member, slash apart apostle in the early 1960s, he was like, hey, we need to change this. Come on, guys, we need, you know, the New York Times is writing embarrassing opinion pieces about us. There are problems coming down the pike. And so Hubie Brown was Putting pressure on it, on David O. McKay, the Prophet, to make these changes. But then there was Markey Peterson and Ezra Tap Benson and Joseph Fielding Smith and others that are Harold B. Lee. They're like, no way, you're not making any of these changes. And it would just get voted down and voted down. And, you know, you get the sense of David O. McKay, part of him wanted to make the changes, other parts of him agreed with the ban and the racism. But most importantly, he couldn't get consensus in the quorum to make the change. And that's one of the main reasons why it wasn't until 1978 the right people died. Marky Peterson was out of town, which probably made it harder for him to protest. Harold B. Lee had died by then. And so, and so, yeah, finally, finally, Spencer W. Kimball has the votes. And because he has the votes, then he sits them all down and makes them pray about it. And of course, voila, a magical, you know, revelation occurs. But this is, this is. If this is revelation, if this is the benefit that we have of modern day prophet seers, of revelators, that it takes them 10 to 20 to 30 years after the rest of, you know, the majority of the country moves on an issue when the right ones die, that then they can have meetings to finally reach a super late consensus on a change. It really begs the question of what's the value of these men? And I. That was a little bit of a rant, but it's a tiny bit of an area where I know a little bit about the history where I just wanted to throw that in. So please forgive me, Mike.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:54:26] No, that's. You covered a lot of what I was gonna say, actually. Cause it, you know.

John Dehlin [01:54:29] Oh, crap. I'm sorry.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:54:30] No, no, it's fine. It's just, to me, it was interesting that, you know, the main reason the, you know, wasn't the civil rights movement, it wasn't the fact that it was morally wrong. It wasn't the fact that it was causing a lot of pain and harm to members in the US or really around the world that had African descent. It was because they built a Brazil temple and they wanted to make sure that it had a good attendance. And. And that is what triggered it. And to me, that goes, you know, it's like you want to give them the benefit of the doubt on some of these things, but there are so many opportunities for them to change course, and they never did until something like the, you know, the Brazil temple being being built and them needing to make sure it was Full, you know, because of course, it looks much better if it's full. I think that's problematic. And. And then I think. What are the other ones I put. Yeah, so. And then the other thing I mentioned. You mentioned too, is it's really interesting that they sent Mark Peterson away because he was. I do not include Mark Peterson quotes in this episode, because I did not. They're horrible. But Mark Peterson is as racist and hateful as you could get. And it's funny that they. He just happened to be out of town so they could get consensus on this revelation to sign off on. And as I will note, we'll get into this in a while from now. We're gonna do some episodes on revelation. But the November 15 policy of exclusion had some similar things where they had to make sure, I believe one or two of the apostles was gone when they passed it, because they would not have approved. And so, you know, when you compare the way the church presents this grand revelation, kind of like what Joseph Smith would have gotten. But the reality is this is like a corporation that's having a boardroom meeting to release a statement, and they go through some individual meetings and they create the statement. Then they go through another one more group meeting to get everyone approve it, and they send it. It's just. It's not. This is just them solving a problem. This is not coming off as revelation in any way comparable to the early days.

John Dehlin [01:56:21] Yeah. And I love what you write there that, like, there are so many instances where God could have used an angel with the flaming sword to kind of intervene. You know, he did it to force Joseph to marry teenagers, according to Joseph, but he didn't do it to make the Mormon Church get ahead of the curve on slavery or on the civil rights movement or on lifting of the ban. Again, it just begs the question of who is this God? You know what I mean?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:56:50] Yeah. And it just shows that, again, that the revelations that Mormon leaders get always tend to back up what they were always teaching. You know, that's why you have Russell Nelson, the moment he lives long enough to be prophet, says God's offended by the name Mormon, even though he had asked for that 20 years earlier and was basically rebuked by two prophets who launched multimillion dollar I'm a Mormon campaign to meet the Mormons. Every time with Joseph Smith, almost every time he got revelation, it basically benefited him in some way. And so you ask, why did an angel with a drawn sword go and tell Joseph Smith to participate in polygamy fully? And yet that same angel decided to take a break for 120 years of just horrible treatment of those with black skin. And that's something everyone has to answer because you have to then reconcile what God is in the Mormon framing of God.

John Dehlin [01:57:37] Yeah. So what do we conclude about the implications of the lifting of the priesthood ban?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:57:43] So I kind of referenced a second ago, but to me, the implications here are really good as to what a prophet is. And so this is what Wendy Nelson said about Russell Nelson after he became prophet. She said, it is as though he has been unleashed. He's free to finally do what he came to earth to do. And also he's free to follow through with things he's been concerned about but could never do. Now that he's president of the Church, he can do those things. And so that's what I would just say is if you want to claim that these men, all of these men throughout the history of the church are products of their time, as apologists constantly do, you're really admitting that the Church is a product of its time. Because everything we're talking about, as I've mentioned over and over in this episode, this is what you'd expect from a church founded in the 19th century. And it speaks so loudly to the fact that these leaders of the church from the beginning until today, cannot discern between their personal prejudices, their personal opinions, and the mind and will of God. And if they can't tell the difference, then why in the world should we give them any respect with regards to getting prophetic revelations if they can't tell themselves which is which?

John Dehlin [01:58:49] Yeah, powerful. Well, Mike, I'm going to call a little bit of an audible if it's okay. We're about two hours in this episode, and I think it might make sense to just split this episode in two. Not because, you know, we're always torn because on the one hand, we feel like keeping it in one episode allows everyone to just conveniently check out the whole thing. But it's likely we're gonna hit four hours with this episode.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:59:12] We might.

John Dehlin [01:59:12] And so I think it would be best so that we don't scare people off. It's like, I'm not gonna watch a four hour thing. So viewers and listeners, if you guys hate that we split this up, just let us know. We'll find a way to name them so that they get, you know, maybe it's part one, part two, maybe we'll think of some other names. But we just, we. We don't want to do anything to make people scared away from checking out these episodes and No, I agree. We've tried to promise them that they'll be kind of more bite sized chunks, so. Well, I think that what we've covered so far is just super powerful, Mike. And, and I'm so glad that we had the participation of, of the members of kind of the Mormon slash ex Mormon, I'll just say Jamaica, African American community joining us. Those were some special treats that make this episode just extra special.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [01:59:59] So, yeah, I think it's helpful because we cannot possibly put it into the experience of others. And so all we could do is kind of show what the data is and show what the quotes are and the scriptures are, but to actually show how that impacts people, something we can't really do because we didn't live through it. So I think that's really helpful and I'm glad too, because I want that feedback because I don't want to do something that is going to hurt people. But I also know this is part of the history that needs to be told. So it's a really hard balance and I feel so uncomfortable doing this. And so I'm really glad to have their, not just their feedback, but to have them so that they can tell us when we're not doing this right or not doing it justice. Because I want to make sure we do it in a way that is respectful to them while also making sure we're getting the data out.

John Dehlin [02:00:40] Yeah. So I just want to personally give a thank you to Sabrina for joining us, to Chanel for joining us, and to Spencer Nugent who's been on Mormon Stories podcast. His family was the first, I think black Jamaican family to join the church in Jamaica. Spencer's got a great story and just so thank you, Spencer, for making this possible. And I, I am so delighted that Sabrina wants to come on and make a final thought for this episode. Sabrina, welcome back.

Guest [02:01:10] You guys are like, it's running too long, so let me get.

John Dehlin [02:01:12] Oh, apologize. No, this is a highlight.

Guest [02:01:15] I just wanted to say, and because I just obviously know firsthand, I know that it's easy to think about when we're going and reviewing these points of history, that it's easy, I guess, as members to think, oh, this is just affecting the white members. We're just bringing awareness to them. And the truth of the matter is that this is also bringing awareness to members that are still very much active, that are also minorities. And this all. They're getting a double fold. They're getting, you know, a revelation, no pun intended, of sorts of things that are atrocities within the history of the church in which they are members. And they're also having to hear it. And it's very traumatic. And so I just wanted to throw that out there that, you know, as we're having these discussions, just being very mindful of that, that this audience that's included in this discussion and, and learning of these things, they're not just white. As I'm going through my own deconstruction, because it's always an ongoing process, I'm learning new things as well. And it's difficult to think about the fact that I stood by a church who I had to combat my own culture and say they're not as racist as they used to be. And then you think about all the things that went down and all the things that continue to go down, and it's just. It's really difficult to manage. So I just wanted to throw that out there, that that is a reality that some who are listening might be experiencing right now.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [02:02:43] Can I ask you a question?

Guest [02:02:45] Yeah.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [02:02:46] From your experience, how many members do you think are aware of this stuff who are of African descent? Like, I don't know how to frame it. Like, do a lot of them eventually hit it? Because I never came across any of these quotes until I had already kind of left the church. Like, I knew about the ban, I asked about the ban, but I never came across any of this stuff until I finally hopped on Google after I'd already kind of left the church. Do you know if that's something that people talk about or is that something that just isn't talked about in the church between members? Because I don't really know if that's something that people are comfortable even bringing up to each other.

Guest [02:03:23] Yeah, no, that's a good point. And I'll give the disclaimer that I obviously don't speak for every minority or black member of ex Mormon or Mormon community. Right. But as far as, like, my experience goes, I have seen that there's nuance in the minority member community as well. And like your experience where these things were not talked about or brushed over very lightly, that's the same experience for a lot of black members because we're taught so often to not go digging too far because it's best to be left alone. Right. And so there are many black members that do just the same. We talk about the church ban, but it's always talked about in this positive light. That new revelation came out. So members were allowed to, you know, black members were allowed to participate. So that's at least Been my experience, I'm sure it's different, especially in areas that might have more of a minority or specifically like a black population. Areas like Georgia, things of that nature, more on the East Coast. But I'm from central Florida, and that was certainly not something.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [02:04:28] Thank you. Yeah, I was, I was curious in that one.

Guest [02:04:31] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:04:31] Well, Sabrina, we're so thrilled you joined us. I, I try periodically to just continue the tradition of having minorities, members of color on Mormon Stories. And I, I, if it, you know, I said this to Chanel, I'll say it to others. I'll say it to you that, like, if, if any of you are interested in a full Mormon Stories episode, telling your story, let's talk, because it's time for me to do it again.

Guest [02:05:03] Yeah, no. Speaking on behalf of a black ex. Mo/Mormon, whatever I am right now, would love to see more people on the podcast that look like me, just to let others know that, hey, just as your white counterparts are experiencing these things, what you're going through can be normalized as well. So really appreciate that.

John Dehlin [02:05:23] Well, let's, let's, let's email afterwards. I would love to make that happen. Thank you. Thank you, Sabrina, we're so grateful you joined us today. Thank you.

Guest [02:05:32] Yeah, absolutely.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [02:05:33] Really appreciate it. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [02:05:34] See you soon.

Guest [02:05:35] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [02:05:35] Okay, bye. And, and again, thanks to. Thanks to Spencer that, that made all of this possible. Spencer, you're great.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [02:05:44] Yeah.

Closing Reflections and Preview of Part Two

John Dehlin [02:05:44] All right, Mike. Well, that's it for this episode. This is just part one. Come right back, everyone, for part two. Any final words you want to say?

Mike (LDS Discussions) [02:05:52] No, I mean, just this, this, this, these episodes suck in the sense of they're so just hard. And like, even, you know, I know a lot of people will say, like, oh, you know, you're, when you leave the church and you talk about it, you're just trying to make fun of it. This is just, this is what it is. And it just, it. I have, I'm having a hard time reading some of these quotes because I just feel so uncomfortable. And I just, I hope they're helpful to people that maybe having to come across them. And when we get to the next episode, we'll talk a lot more about the apologetics of it. And I think, I hope that helps people because you do. You get this very correlated, clean version of Mormonism, and it's just not the case. And the only thing I'll say is just the next episode is going to get even worse when you start getting into this stuff as far as comfort level goes. So I hope everyone did okay with this one. We're going to do our best to continue to be gentle and I think it's important that everyone knows it. And then at that point you're going to do what you want with that information. But everyone should have the full information here. And because the church won't give it to us, because it took me digging through and listening to podcasts and researching online to find that, I think it should be out there for people who want to hear it. And then like I said, you do with it what you want.

John Dehlin [02:07:02] Yeah. And because we haven't called it out and for some reason it wasn't visual on these slides, I'm just going to let people know. This full essay is available at ldsdiscussions.com race and I'm showing a visual of it here. But you can read this entire episode in text form. If you're not really into podcast form, if you're not into audio and visual learning and instead you'd rather just read it. That's what LDS discussions is all about. And it's got that there. I'll also just again throw in a plug for. You know, we're on YouTube. We've got a dedicated YouTube playlist, so you can watch these episodes in succession if you want. We'll include a link to that in the show notes. We're also available on Spotify both in audio only format and in video format. And we're available on Apple Podcast app audio and wherever else you get your podcasts. Just because. Oh, and I'm also, if we haven't been blessed enough, Chanel is wanting to give us also her final perspective. So I'm just going to ask Chanel to turn on her camera and unmute her phone. And Chanel, we would love to have you share with us any final thoughts you want to share.

Chanel [02:08:31] Yeah. So I don't know what's happening with my computer or my phone, but I. Can you hear me?

John Dehlin [02:08:38] Yeah, we hear you. Great.

Chanel [02:08:42] First of all, I wanted to say you're doing it right. You're absolutely doing it right. And for a person who's now 50 and have been silenced for the past 30 years, being able to say my truth and have you have the facts to back up what I've been saying I got nothing like that is priceless. It is so priceless because, and you don't need to be delicate, you just give the facts and let people decide what they need to do with that. These are facts. I've been telling them it's doctrine. It is not policy. And it really doesn't matter because the members responded based on policy or doctrine. They acted a certain way. And that is what. That is the why.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [02:09:30] Yeah.

Chanel [02:09:31] You know, and to hear you guys talking about this and I'm sitting here going, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. I've been telling you, I've been telling you, and people telling me, be quiet, be quiet, be quiet, be quiet, be quiet. This isn't true. It's not true. You're lying. You're lying. What. What can they say to you, too? You've got. You've got the receipts, and I'm telling you I'm here for it. And yes, John, I would love to talk to you. So email me, let me know. But this is great. No, you're doing good. Keep doing it. Thank you so much.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [02:09:58] Thank you very much. Yeah, like I said, I feel so uncomfortable doing this. So I'm glad that you're listening along, because I don't want to do something that is going to come off as offensive or. I've had people tell me before that with the website, they'll say, well, you're exploiting people with black skin to make the church look bad. I'm like, I'm not trying to. I'm just trying to put out there what's there. I'm really never, ever trying to in any way impose my own experience onto anyone else. But I also understand that it can feel like that. And I don't want to do anything that would feel like I am taking advantage of anyone else's experiences. So I'm so glad you were able to kind of listen and watch with us and talk with us, because it helps me to kind of know that at least I'm not doing something wrong, because I do. I feel so uncomfortable going through this stuff. So thank you so much for your feedback and for your experiences because it means so much to me to be able to help do better in the future, too, when I'm talking about this stuff, because, like I said, it's such a delicate thing. And to your point, there are times where I want to be more blunt and I'm just a little bit timid to do it because I don't want to come off like I'm trying to, you know, exploit those who went through really bad things within the church to make the church look bad. What I'm just trying to do is put it out there and people are going to do with it whatever they're going to do. I can't. I can't do anything with regards to how people are going to process it. All I can do is just put it out there.

Chanel [02:11:15] Correct. Thank you so much. Appreciate you both.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [02:11:18] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [02:11:19] You're the best. I thank you. I can't thank you enough. Thanks, Chanel.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [02:11:23] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [02:11:24] We'll be in touch.

Chanel [02:11:25] Okay, bye.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [02:11:26] Bye, Chanel. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:11:29] All right. All right, Mike. Well, great job. And this is heavy, dark stuff, and. But you've pulled together some really, really great info, and I just can't wait. Well, I don't want to say I'm excited for part two.

Mike (LDS Discussions) [02:11:44] I know that's why these episodes are so important. And I hate, like, it's. Polygamy is going the same way. Polygamy, at least for me, just from, you know, these. These episodes are so difficult because it's just such a. A really difficult thing to talk about. And they're so important. And so, like, from a historical perspective, it's kind of exciting because you could show how all the. Like, with the scriptures, like, I love how all the pieces fit, that it's a 19th century text and 19. All these things fit together perfectly. But on the other hand, it's just horrific when you actually talk about what that leads to. And so it's important. I think everyone should know it. But it's, you know, it's not fun for us, and I don't think it's gonna be fun for anyone listening. And I just hope it's helpful and I hope for people that haven't really listened to some, because I think some of the podcasts I've listened to cover different aspects. I'm trying to do it in a little bit of a different way to try to tie it together into what we've already talked about, which I think will be a little more helpful to understanding where these came from, how the priesthood band started, like, being able to tie it into the book Abraham, I think is really important because it didn't originate with Brigham Young. And so as we go into the next episode, we'll try to tie that with the apologetics, and it won't get easier or any less uncomfortable, but we need to get through it. So we'll get through it, and I just hope it helps some people out there.

John Dehlin [02:12:56] It will. All right, Mike, you're a legend. Thanks for all you do, and we'll see you soon. And thanks to all the viewers and listeners who join us today. Please share this episode with anyone you can. Please be kind to each other. Let's work on dealing with systems, not people and let's just all try and do our work. Because just because you leave the church doesn't mean you have figured out how to root out racism and sexism and homophobia and all the different transphobia all the different ways. So let's just keep doing the work and realize that seeing the church clearly for what it is, as an example, is, is just a beginning step. And progressive Mormons, post Mormons, the church, we've all got work to do. So be kind to each other, be good to each other. Thanks for your support, everybody, and come right back for part two of this series. And we've got much more to come. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care of.

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