Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Rose Sorenson [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Lead

Rose Sorenson [00:00:43] thou me on the night is dark and I am far from home.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] Hello, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin, and it is August 23, 2016, three days after my 47th birthday. It's a Tuesday and I'm broadcasting from North Logan, Utah, in my basement, and I'm very excited to be continuing my series on Mormon missionaries in the 21st century, specifically in the 2010s. We've interviewed four people so far. The feedback on the interviews has been very strong, very, very positive, and I'm excited to begin my fifth interview in the series. This interview is with Rose Sorenson. Hey, Rose. Welcome to Mormon Stories.

Rose Sorenson [00:01:36] Hi, John. Nice to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] And a shout out to some of your siblings who I think are listeners to Mormon Stories.

Rose Sorenson [00:01:43] Oh, yes. Thank you, Laura and Daniel and Mariah and Teddy for all listening. You guys are great and supportive.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] Excellent. All right, so we're trying to cover different aspects of the mission experience and of early return or loss of faith. And so I'll just give a quick preview of Rose's story, but then I've read through her experience and it's definitely worth staying for the whole thing. But in Rose's case, what you're going to be hearing about is someone who started experiencing doubts as a 12 year old and started having concerns then, but decided to serve a mission anyway. In part, Rose, if I understand it, to kind of strengthen your faith, is that right?

Rose Sorenson [00:02:33] Correct. To kind of figure it out once and for all.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] Yeah. And in your case, as you titled your email to me, missionary turned atheist, apparently you became an atheist on your mission, is that right?

Rose Sorenson [00:02:44] That is correct. I served the last few months of my mission as an atheist.

John Dehlin [00:02:49] Yeah. And then, you know, we'll talk about this. But you decided to go ahead and finish out your mission. So in this case, there wasn't an early return, but we're going to dive into sort of what it was like to not be a believer and to try and serve when you really didn't believe anymore and what that did to your mental health, how the mission treated you, how your mission president treated you, what types of mental health services you received, and then what happened once you got home and why you felt compelled to want to do this interview.

Rose Sorenson [00:03:25] That sounds perfect. I'm excited to share.

John Dehlin [00:03:28] Yeah. All right, so tell us just a little bit about one minute, kind of your. Your Mormon family growing up and what the church meant to you as a kid.

Growing Up Mormon in Idaho and Early Doubts

Rose Sorenson [00:03:38] Sure. So I grew up in Idaho Falls, southeastern Idaho, which is very religious, has a lot of Mormons. A lot of people call it northern Utah. And so what comes with that is a lot of the typical Mormon culture. And my family was very religious. There's six kids and two wonderful parents, and it was a very loving home. We read scriptures every morning, went to church every Sunday. Everybody went to seminary. I've had, you know, three of my older siblings all went on missions, you know, served full time. Yeah, I just say, very typical, very active Mormon family.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] And for you, was there ever a point where you really just believed it and you were just sort of a traditional Mormon, or did that not ever? Did you never have that luxury?

Rose Sorenson [00:04:26] I would say that, like you mentioned earlier, around the age of 12 is when my questions started popping up, and I couldn't just blindly believe. But there was about a year in high school after I had had a bunch of questions, and I didn't feel like I was being perfect. And I was like, I'm going to go.

John Dehlin [00:04:43] What were those questions? Let's start there. What were the questions as a 12 year old? You're having them.

Rose Sorenson [00:04:48] Yeah, I remember. The very first one is right. So when you pray, you're supposed to close your arms, you know, bow your head and keep your eyes closed. And I thought that if I didn't do that, then something bad was gonna happen to my family, that it wasn't gonna be a good prayer. And I realized when I opened my eyes that nothing happened. It was fine. And that was the beginning of realizing that a lot of these rules are not 100% stonehard. And then as I grew older, I remember a huge one was the church's stance on the LGBTQ community and thinking that that was unfair. Like, I didn't have any of those sexual feelings at all. But I just did not see that as a loving stance from a loving God and a loving church.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] And this was when you were a young teenager?

Rose Sorenson [00:05:33] Yeah, I think it was around 15. And I kept bringing it up in seminary, kept asking questions that, you know, if people have agency, why are we supporting Prop 8 and different things like that? And I never got an answer. I always just got blown. Blown off.

John Dehlin [00:05:47] Okay, now did, did people around you know that you were having doubts and concerns? Were you pretty, were you pretty vocal about it or.

Rose Sorenson [00:05:56] I would say it's pretty vocal that my parents were great about letting us ask questions and think for ourselves and find answers for ourselves. So I always express things to my parents and always express things to my bishops. I was really good about going and telling them any little thing that I thought I did wrong or any questions that I had so I could get, you know, the correct church guidance.

John Dehlin [00:06:18] Okay, so you were telling us, were you telling us about a time when you, when you were able to obtain some belief? Is that where you were going?

Rose Sorenson [00:06:26] Yeah, that is correct. So it was about the age of 17. So a little bit of a preface. I have more of a tendency for depression and anxiety, kind of like Sage in that second episode was talking about. And the intense Mormon guilt has a tendency to accentuate that to an extreme. Right. So I went to a Mormon therapist at the time who told me, oh, well, if you just do everything the church tells you to a t, you're gonna be happy because then you won't have that guilt. So that's what I did. I went full head on in. I, I didn't listen to any music that swore. I did my fast and testimony meetings perfectly. I went even when my family didn't because, you know, extended relatives would be into town. And it made me happy more or less because I didn't have that, that guilt that I was doing one single thing wrong.

John Dehlin [00:07:15] Were you, Were there, were there sort of normal teen things that you were doing that were making you feel guilty before that time?

Rose Sorenson [00:07:24] Honestly, I was a fairly good kid. I listened to some songs that swore. I swore. I smoked marijuana once. I stayed out late and, you know, had a boyfriend before I was 16. I had a long term boyfriend. But honestly, more or less, I was a pretty good kid.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] Okay, but then you went hardcore at age 17 and that made you feel better.

Rose Sorenson [00:07:49] Yeah, because I didn't have those nagging feelings in the back of my head that I wasn't. That I wasn't perfect, that I wasn't good enough, that there was one more thing I should be doing. Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] So the church is true.

Rose Sorenson [00:08:00] Right? Look, I'm happy just like they said I would be.

John Dehlin [00:08:04] Okay, so what happened next?

Rose Sorenson [00:08:07] So that's when I. So 17 and then 18 in high school and trying to figure out where to go to college. And I realized that as a, as a human being with natural tendencies, that I had a hard time following the rules to a T. So I figured going to BYU would help me stay on this, the straight and narrow path.

John Dehlin [00:08:26] Okay, so BYU Provo.

Rose Sorenson [00:08:28] Yes, correct. BYU Provo.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] And that's hard, that's hard to get into these days, right?

Rose Sorenson [00:08:32] Correct. If I was able to get into it, I'm a very studious person and probably a bit of luck as well.

John Dehlin [00:08:38] So how was your BYU experience?

Rose Sorenson [00:08:41] Terrible? Oh, no, it was pretty terrible. What happened? Well, I tried to be perfect and I wasn't happy anymore because I just couldn't maintain it. And I think honestly the religion classes opened my eyes. More specifically, I can tell you one thing that came up in my Book of Mormon class is talking about the doctrine of neutral grounds. I don't remember all the facts now because it's. I mean, it's been a few years, but essentially that everybody in this life starts out on a fence, or at least that's how it's explained it to me. Everybody starts out on a fence. And if you choose the Mormon Church, if you choose the right way, then good, you're on Jesus side. But if you ever leave Jesus side, you can't go back to that fence. You go to Satan's side. And I had two older siblings, Teddy and Mariah, that had left the church. And they were loving, awesome people that did service, that cared about people, and I thought that they were better than a lot of the kids at BYU that I knew. And that was. That just hit me, learning more about doctrines like that. It just didn't make sense.

John Dehlin [00:09:50] That doesn't sound like a doctrine. That sounds like someone's pet theory.

Rose Sorenson [00:09:54] Fair enough. I wish I could remember it. It did say it in the manual.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] No, I'm sure someone called it a doctrine, but no, fair enough.

Rose Sorenson [00:10:02] Maybe doctrine, that is too strong of a word, but it definitely opened my eyes.

John Dehlin [00:10:05] Okay, so you started having a little bit more doubts as a freshman at byu.

Rose Sorenson [00:10:11] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] What was dating like at byu?

Rose Sorenson [00:10:16] I thought it was difficult. I didn't fit into what I think a typical Mormon guy wants because I refuse to be conventional. I love to go outdoors and go snowboarding. I didn't go to all the family home evening activities. I. I wanted to be a civil engineer. I was a little bit more open minded. So I think a lot of guys are intimidated by me.

John Dehlin [00:10:38] And how'd that make you feel?

Rose Sorenson [00:10:41] It made me feel like there was something, that there was something wrong with me more or less. Yeah, but I wasn't. I wasn't willing to conform to something that I wasn't. So I just continued having fun and going off and doing stuff outdoors, regardless of what all the guys at BYU wanted to do.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] But it makes you feel lonely or broken if guys are choosing all these other girls, right?

Rose Sorenson [00:11:03] Yeah, definitely. Lonely, broken. Seeing these girls that not all of them, but a lot of girls that had no ambition for their life, that they were here to find their husbands. And look, they succeeded at that. They went on those great Mormon dates.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] That's hard. So if you're not having a great time at byu, what in the world would make you want to go on a mission?

Rose Sorenson [00:11:29] Well, because I have more of a perfectionist attitude. I wanted to figure out if I was going to make the church my thing for the rest of my life and I was going to do it perfectly or if I should give it up and try and find more meaning in my life. I was tired of being on that fence more or less between the two. It's a really uncomfortable place to be, to be unsure about your beliefs. I would envy the Mormons that were so sure of themselves that could stand up at church and say, I know this is true, because I couldn't. But I couldn't leave either, because I would go to hell.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] Right. Had you heard about feminism at all at this point?

Rose Sorenson [00:12:11] I had. My mom is very strong. She is a lawyer. She is a bit of a feminist herself. And so she was always teaching me to be an empowered woman. And my dad, even to his credit, was always great about that. He said, a girl's best friend is a college degree.

John Dehlin [00:12:28] That's great. Did you identify as a feminist as a freshman at byu?

Rose Sorenson [00:12:34] I don't know. I think in reality I did, but I had a hard time placing that label on myself because a good Mormon is not supposed to. But a good Mormon girl is not feminist. She's submissive and meek.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] So what year did you start your mission?

Rose Sorenson [00:12:48] So I started my mission March of 2013. I inputted my papers right after they made that age change because I figured that was my sign that I need to go on my mission and figure it out.

John Dehlin [00:13:00] So you were part of that crazy wave of younger sister missionaries?

Rose Sorenson [00:13:04] That's right. I turned in my papers the week afterwards. There was, you know, five other sister missionary or potential sister missionaries in the chair next to me waiting to meet with the stake president. Yeah, it was an exciting time.

John Dehlin [00:13:19] Well, cool. Okay, so tell us a bit about, you know, your mission experience, maybe starting with The MTC or anything you want to share about the process.

Struggling with Faith During the Mission

Rose Sorenson [00:13:28] Sure. So I entered the mtc, and it was hard from day one, if I look back through my journals, I talk about how much of a struggle it was trying to figure out if I believed in my testimony. I would sit there in these classes and think, am I going to run out? Am I going to run out? Because I don't believe this. I don't know if I can believe this. But a stubborn part of me insisted on staying until I knew for sure it was not true.

John Dehlin [00:13:54] Okay.

Rose Sorenson [00:13:54] That was the goal. That was. That was my one drive. A lot of people go on their mission to serve other people or because they believe it's true. But my entire goal was to figure out if it was true or not true. And I wanted to be 100% sure no matter what.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] So what'd you do to try and find out?

Rose Sorenson [00:14:11] Sure. My. The main thing that I did to figure it out is I'm a very logical person. I naturally wanted to go through and disprove the church by all of their history and all the other things that have inconsistencies. But I decided that the best way to judge a spiritual organization was by spirituality. Right. That you can only test it by itself. That's even kind of how the scientific method works, more or less. And so I took it as Moroni's promise. I was going to prove Moroni's promise right or wrong, because it does say, ask if these things are not true. So I was like, oh, perfect. Okay, I'm going to research. I'm going to read the Book of Mormon. I'm going to pray. I'm going to follow all the rules. I'm going to bear my testimony and figure out if this is true or not true. And I read the Book of Mormon about four or five times on my mission. Made lots of marks in there every single time. Because that's what I want to figure out. Tomorrow night promise would come true for me.

John Dehlin [00:15:14] Okay. And so as you're reading it, you're reading it with the intent of getting that answer, is that right?

Rose Sorenson [00:15:21] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:15:22] So would you pray every time you finished the book?

Rose Sorenson [00:15:25] Yes. Pray intently every single time. And I would feel nothing. I would sit there crying because I wanted to feel something so, so bad, but I just. I just couldn't. I don't know. And I always thought that there was something wrong with me, but after four or five times, maybe there's not something wrong with you.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] What was it like to bear your testimony when you really didn't have one. Do you remember the process you went through? Because I had to do that too. I'm not judging you. Like, when I am on my mission, I'm about to do my first discussion and I'm like, I don't really know it's true, but I'm supposed to bear my testimony. So I just decided to do it anyway. What was that process like for you?

Rose Sorenson [00:16:09] Oh, that was very difficult and it changes. Throughout my mission, my main goal was to always say what I did believe, more or less, and I learned ways to sort of get around it. So I remember giving a lesson with Martha and Winton, this really sweet elderly couple that were interested in the church. And I remember saying, you know, I, you know, I hope this church is true. I know it can give you a great sense of community. I know that you'll feel better about life after death because that was one of their huge concerns. I just said, I did never say that Joseph Smith was a prophet, that the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I didn't say those things because I didn't believe those things. But at that sort of relatively early part of my mission, I still believe that it could help them in their lives.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] So I've thought about this a lot. I'm guessing that more and more kids are going on missions not really believing, but I'm imagining you saying those words and having your companion kind of look at you and later say, sister, what's up with that testimony? That's not how they taught us to bear a testimony. That sounds pretty weak. Did you get any grief from your companions when you would give non traditional testimonies?

Rose Sorenson [00:17:22] I did. I did, more or less. But surprisingly, I would say real quick that only one missionary that I'm aware of realized that I didn't believe.

John Dehlin [00:17:31] They weren't even paying attention.

Rose Sorenson [00:17:33] No, that's the thing is I realized that people, if you have that sort of bail over you or that sort

John Dehlin [00:17:40] of chip in your brain, I call it the chip in the brain.

Rose Sorenson [00:17:43] Yeah, chip in the brain. You're not really listening because I. Well, I'll get onto about my homecoming talk and talking to the stake president. But you have that chip in the brain. You can say almost anything and people will just hear what they want to hear.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] Okay, so talk more about as you're serving your mission, trying to get a testimony and not getting it. How did that, how did you experience that and then what did you do to try and cope with that?

Rose Sorenson [00:18:12] Sure. I know that it definitely being on a mission where you're Supposed to feel so confident about your testimony and you're supposed to help convert these people. And not being able to convert myself, it triggered my depression and anxiety pretty heavily. I started having constant migraines every day. I started something called vocal folds dysfunction, where you're so stressed out your vocal folds won't allow you to breathe. A lot of physical symptoms. And I guess now would be a good time to get into the fact that I told my mission president that I had trouble with my testimony and that I was depressed about it and set up for me to see the mission therapist. And like Sage, I was told I have three sessions and if I couldn't figure my crap out, I was gonna be sent home. So what do I do? I go to the three sessions. You know, she more or less tells me I'm actually not qualified to be a missionary, and I shouldn't be a missionary if I can't figure this out. And then I fake it. I'm like, oh, okay, great, you fixed me. I guess I'll just go back to my normal missionary life now because I was determined to stay.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] So first of all, we had some people say, oh, that three session limit, that's not true. That's not real. Tell us your mission if you're comfortable.

Rose Sorenson [00:19:31] Yeah, I was the Georgia Atlanta North Mission.

John Dehlin [00:19:34] Okay. And so that three therapy rule was also true. Three session rule was true for you. And then, and then again, we've had several missionaries report that their therapists didn't seem to really want to treat you for mood disorder or an anxiety disorder. What was their treatment?

Rose Sorenson [00:19:58] Their treatment was kind of what I got when I was 16. That, oh, you're feeling guilty because you're not good enough. You're not following the church rules. So let's give you a church outline of what you can do to make you feel better. Let's see if you read the scriptures and if you testify more that you do believe even though you don't, that will help. And they did give me a couple worksheets on, like, more positive thinking, which is helpful. Right. Because I had negative thoughts about myself. But it was true, more or less. Fixing depression and anxiety with the church, which is. That's not the same thing.

John Dehlin [00:20:34] Yeah. And when that's part of the problem, it's a very difficult diagnosis to receive. But it sounds like your therapist made you feel worse about yourself and your situation.

Rose Sorenson [00:20:45] I definitely felt worse by the end. I think she was extremely judgmental and she thought that I shouldn't be on a mission and maybe I shouldn't have, but I did a lot of service. I loved helping people. I loved talking to old ladies that were lonely and getting to know the people in the south and trying to find a commonality between other Christian religions and Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] So the lesson you learned or the decision you made after three sessions was tell us again.

Rose Sorenson [00:21:16] I was just going to fake it. I was going to tell the mission president and the therapist that, perfect, you fixed me, I believe, more or less. And I'm going to continue being on a happy believing missionary.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] And what does that do to you when you're struggling with anxiety and depression? You reach out for help and then you realize that the only way to get by is to just lie and internalize. What does that do?

Rose Sorenson [00:21:42] It makes you feel even more lonely, which accentuates your problems if you don't have somebody to talk about it. I can't talk about it with my companions. I was specifically told by my mission president, do not tell anybody else. You know, don't talk to anybody. I had a really hard time. And so, to be honest with you, what I started doing was we had cell phones. We didn't have iPads yet. We didn't have iPads my entire mission. But I figured out a way to call some of my siblings that weren't Mormon anymore, and I would talk to them about it. They were my therapists. They were the ones that gave me courage to keep going because they knew that I wanted to be on a mission and I wanted to figure it out.

John Dehlin [00:22:17] Were these believing siblings or non believing siblings?

Rose Sorenson [00:22:20] These were non believing siblings.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] And they were still supportive of you staying on the mission?

Rose Sorenson [00:22:24] They encouraged me to stay on the mission. They specifically would not answer my questions about doubting or about Joseph Smith or anything like that. That because they said that it was my journey and what I needed to figure out.

John Dehlin [00:22:38] So how do you break the rules with a companion that's supposed to be with you all the time? I don't get how missionaries do that.

Rose Sorenson [00:22:47] Let's see, so specifically with the rule with the phone is that if a companion was taking a nap, I would take the phone and go outside. And because it was Idaho or Utah numbers, it didn't look too suspicious. There's a lot of people in our ward with Idaho and Utah numbers, so I wouldn't do it that frequently. But whether they're taking a nap or if they went to bed early, I would sneak out at like midnight and call and then delete the numbers. And I wouldn't do it too frequently. And as far as my knowledge I never got caught, so.

John Dehlin [00:23:16] And did the mission have a system for reviewing your cell phone records?

Rose Sorenson [00:23:21] Yes, they would. They could see what all the phone numbers that you called. But because these are Idaho and Utah numbers, we had a lot of people that have moved to Georgia from Idaho and Utah. So I don't think it looked too suspicious or at least not enough to raise a red flag. I mean, they've got thousands of numbers to look through.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] Okay. Okay, cool. All right. So what was it like as you continued just internalizing and speaking to your siblings, but trying to stay on the mission? What happened?

Rose Sorenson [00:23:53] I would say that my, you know, my testimony and my hope of figuring out that the church was true just slowly declined. You can read through my journals that, you know, I slowly write out a list like, okay, well, I do believe that life after death is a possibility. I do believe the church is good for people. Different things like that. That list would get smaller and smaller and smaller as I read the Book of Mormon more, as I prayed more, as I pondered, as I got blessings, you know, priesthood blessings. It just slowly dwindled until there was nothing left.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] So by what month was there nothing left?

Rose Sorenson [00:24:31] I would say completely nothing left. There was about three months.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] Three months to go on the mission. So you were.

Rose Sorenson [00:24:37] Yeah, three months ago.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] So you were 15 months in. And how did your symptoms of depression and anxiety progress?

Rose Sorenson [00:24:47] I would say they actually were more of a roller coaster. That at the beginning, it was the hardest because here you're thrown into a whole new environment. You're the embassy. You're in a whole new. You're in Georgia where it's hot and humid. You have new companions that you're supposed to spend 247 with. You can't tell them anything. But near the end, I would say near the end, I actually got better. Then my depression and anxiety went down because I was figuring out what I believed. That was my whole. That was my mission, to figure out what I believed. And I was able to do that. And I found coping mechanisms. I spent more and more hours doing service. I opened up to my companions a little bit more and explained to them, you know, hey, I have a really hard time, you know, proselyting all the time. Let's do more service because that's something we could both do to feel successful and get out of the house. And then I also asked my mission president to switch me to an all biking area so that I could spend more time outside. And if you're biking to appointments, you're spending a lot more time in between appointments. You don't do as many appointments. And all of those sort of coping mechanisms made the mission easier for me and I was a little bit happier.

John Dehlin [00:25:57] Did Moroni's promise ever come true for you?

Rose Sorenson [00:26:00] No. Well, I mean, if you think about it, he said to ask if it's not true. I mean, in a way it did. I am so at peace. I know the church is not true. I can say that so passionately and so peacefully. So.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] Okay. All right. Thanks, Moroni. So it says you said in your write up that you started planning your departure from the church as a missionary. What was that like?

Rose Sorenson [00:26:27] That is correct. It was a little bit. Actually, I think it was a good thing. I actually wrote out all the list of things that I wanted to continue from the church, wanted to do service. I wanted to still go talk to old ladies just because they were lonely. And then I got to contemplate while I was still in a mission where there was not a temptation. You know, do I want to drink or not? Do I want to have sexual relationships or not? Do I want to go to church ever again? I got to ask all those questions when it was just theoretical, when I had to just think of it as abstract. And so that helped me make, I think, good decisions for my life now.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] So you're able to plan in sort of a chill, relaxed environment.

Rose Sorenson [00:27:13] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] You mentioned in your write up that Emma Smith and polygamy had figured into your doubts and questions. Had you ever by this time stumbled on any Internet sources that talked about these issues? Mormon Stories, CES Letters, MormonThink, any of the books by this time, had you been exposed to any of those resources?

Rose Sorenson [00:27:38] I had looked it up a little bit. On Mondays when you go to the computers, I would specifically choose a computer my companion could not see me look at. And I went on a couple. I cannot remember the name of this website, but it was about, I think Post Mormons or something about trying to be a Mormon, a non believing Mormon. I would go on blogs like that and just read and read and read. And I remember looking at the ex Mormon videos.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] New Order Mormon, Was that it?

Rose Sorenson [00:28:05] New Order Mormon? Yeah, that was the one I looked on. New Order Mormon. I even made an account. I almost made a post. I think I was really close, but I refrained.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] Okay. And you said the ex Mormon, I'm an ex Mormon videos.

Rose Sorenson [00:28:20] Yeah, I love those because those people

John Dehlin [00:28:22] were actually Trey mentioned those too. Trey mentioned those too?

Rose Sorenson [00:28:26] Yeah. You talked about how the Mormon stories are just an ad. The ex Mormon stories has substance.

John Dehlin [00:28:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so those things you're checking out, what was it about Emma's story or polygamy that bothered you?

Rose Sorenson [00:28:40] Oh, God. I'm trying to remember now because it's been a while. It's nice to be a little bit separated from the church. But I remember polygamy. Oh. Thinking that was not okay. First of all, my conscience told me that's not okay. And realizing that Joseph Smith, right. He married 30 women, is that correct?

John Dehlin [00:29:01] Like that? Yeah.

Rose Sorenson [00:29:02] Yeah. That it was a selfish thing to do, that he had these women. Was it? You send their husbands on missions and he would marry them as well?

John Dehlin [00:29:11] Sometimes, occasionally.

Rose Sorenson [00:29:12] Uh huh. And of course, as missionaries, we were taught if somebody brought up polygamy, like, oh, it's not a doctrine anymore, you know, we don't believe that it's. You do believe in polygamy, then you're not part of the main sect of Mormonism. But now. Correct. Correct me if I'm wrong. I could have my facts wrong, but that really. My, My little brother Daniel did a lot more research than I did and he was saying that in heaven, in the celestial kingdom, there will still be polygamy. But that isn't a valid reason that if you look at the statements, they didn't get rid of polygamy because they thought it was wrong. They got rid of it because it became illegal in the United States.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] Yeah. Doctrine and Covenants 132 is still part of the canon. So polygamy is still part of our doctrine. And even our current apostles only remarry women who haven't been sealed because they get sealed to their multiple spouses. So yeah, we still are polygamous church. We just don't practice it civilly because it's not popular.

Rose Sorenson [00:30:21] Yep. But it was interesting. They never, they never really broadcasted that. They more or less told us to whitewash the truth to come up with a better justification for it. Or at least maybe that's just what I did, because that's the only thing that could possibly make sense.

End of the Mission and Coming Home

John Dehlin [00:30:36] Did you ever find other missionaries who doubted? Were you ever able to talk to any other missionaries who questioned or had

Rose Sorenson [00:30:44] concerns on my mission? As far as I'm aware, nobody else doubted. I was.

John Dehlin [00:30:51] You wouldn't know.

Rose Sorenson [00:30:53] How could you?

John Dehlin [00:30:53] Because you were told not to talk to anyone.

Rose Sorenson [00:30:55] Right, Exactly. But it was interesting. I mean, the first two parts of the series, you were talking to people from the Roseville, California mission. Yeah, I, from a friend of a friend started writing a missionary from the Roseville, California mission that didn't believe that Went home early because he told a visiting apostle that he didn't believe.

John Dehlin [00:31:14] Oh, Six Degrees From Roseville should be the name of this podcast series.

Rose Sorenson [00:31:20] So that was the only other person that I could talk to on my mission that was an active missionary that was having serious doubts.

John Dehlin [00:31:26] Okay.

Rose Sorenson [00:31:27] It was from the Roseville, California mission.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] Awesome. Something's wrong with that mission. Or right. Depending on your perspective. Okay, so how do you. So you decided that even though with three to six months to go, you didn't believe anymore, you're planning leaving the church as a missionary, you decided to stick it out. So what was the end of your mission like? And then talk to us about ending the mission.

Rose Sorenson [00:31:52] Sure. It was really difficult. It was really difficult to be on a mission and bearing my testimony when I didn't know it was true. I mean, we mentioned that I had nothing left to. I have nothing left to even possibly say. I had one companion who was especially difficult, who got angry at me for not praying enough, but she didn't want to leave the house at all. Like, she was the one who didn't want to leave the house but would criticize me for not praying. And during personal study, instead of reading the scriptures, I would read how to Win Friends and Influence People. I would read the Hiding Place. I would read any other sort of inspirational book that I could get my hands on. And she was very critical of that because that wasn't me being good enough. So that was difficult. Okay. My very last companion, Sarah, I could just give a little shout out, first name. She was very sweet. I actually ended up did telling her because I could not keep it inside anymore. The first two weeks, she tried to convert me, tried to help, you know, bring me back. And she realized that I had a lot of conviction and that I was happy with my decision, that I had a reason for every single piece of doctrine that I disagreed with. She had a lot of admiration. She's still very active. We still talk all the time. She's a very sweet companion. And so she just made it her. Her mission more or less to give me a last good transfer to let me do all the service that I wanted to. That if we needed to bear our testimony in a lesson, she would do it. She would, you know, take over that role, which was really, really sweet of her. So I would say at a good last. Last six weeks, because of her thumbs up to Sarah. Thanks, Sarah. Haley did that as well. There was one other companion.

John Dehlin [00:33:35] Okay, thumbs up to Haley. All right. So any final words with your mission president? Any closure with with him the last

Rose Sorenson [00:33:45] month, we got a new mission president.

John Dehlin [00:33:47] Okay.

Rose Sorenson [00:33:48] So this new mission president, I just didn't bother telling him in the closing interview. I did my fake testimony, I did my testimony of the things that I sort of believed, and he gave me a pat on the back and said I was an honorable missionary.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] Okay.

Rose Sorenson [00:34:05] All right.

John Dehlin [00:34:07] So maybe lacking a little bit of the gift of discernment there.

Rose Sorenson [00:34:11] Sure. And I mean, I would like to throw out a quick note for missionaries that, you know, did not get an honorable release. That, that really bothered me that I did when I was an atheist, when they released me. Here's these missionaries that go home for medical reasons or for all sorts of reasons and because, because their mission president doesn't believe in their story or thinks that they were sinning too much that they do not get an honorable release. And just here, because I, maybe I lied too good that I was a good returned missionary.

John Dehlin [00:34:44] Do you feel guilty for lying or misrepresenting?

Rose Sorenson [00:34:48] I don't. I don't. Because when I tried to be honest, they didn't want me to be honest. They wanted me to lie. They wanted me to not tell any companions, tell anybody I was doing, sorry, better missionary work than some, some missionaries who would sit around and do nothing all day. But they believed I was at least out doing service with a, you know, a name, name tag saying that I was from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I didn't do anything bad to represent the church. So, no, I don't feel guilty for that.

John Dehlin [00:35:19] Okay. So what was it like coming home?

Rose Sorenson [00:35:23] So I had already planned out that I was going to give my homecoming talk. And then I had two weeks before school started in Colorado. I was going to go to Colorado State University away from Utah and Mormons and everything. So I came home the day after I came home, I drank coffee and took my garments off

John Dehlin [00:35:45] the day after.

Rose Sorenson [00:35:46] The day after.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] Wow. What'd your parents think about that?

Rose Sorenson [00:35:50] My dad didn't know at the time because I still wore semi modest things. Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:55] Unlike now.

Rose Sorenson [00:35:56] Unlike now.

John Dehlin [00:35:57] Just kidding. I'm kidding. No, they're beautiful shoulders. I'm just kidding.

Rose Sorenson [00:36:03] Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, so I came home, drank coffee, took my garments off, and then that Sunday I gave my homecoming talk. And here I'm giving it without my garments on, you know, a little bit of coffee, breath even. And I just tell everybody about these wonderful people I met in Georgia, about this courageous lady, Rhonda, who was fighting HIV and who, you know, really wanted to believe in life after death. And she was so, so courageous or. I don't know. There was brother, Brother Reed who, you know, read the Bible non stop and had all these facts and he was a less active. And he, you know, wasn't sure about coming back to the church, but he would always be honest to us. He would always tell us if he didn't read like he said he was going to, or if he didn't go to church like he said he was going to. I just told all these stories about awesome people because that's truth. There's people that have honesty and courage and service out there in Georgia. And I, I don't even think I said, in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. I just said amen.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] Wow. No, go ahead.

Rose Sorenson [00:37:11] Oh, and even afterwards, right. The bishop gave me a nice firm handshake and told me that this is great. Now you have a chance to try and convert your older brother. That fell away from the church.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] So was anyone onto you by listening to your talk? Did anyone come up and indicate that they could tell something was off?

Rose Sorenson [00:37:31] The only person was one of my cousins in the audience that is a less active Mormon as well. She was the only one she used, the one I had not told her yet. And she's like, hey, I think I know now. That was the only person that indicated to me, though that anything was wrong because of that little chip in the head.

John Dehlin [00:37:51] Yeah. You had a cousin without the chip in her head.

Rose Sorenson [00:37:54] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] Okay. And so you took off to Colorado and how are you doing now?

Rose Sorenson [00:38:02] I'm loving lives.

John Dehlin [00:38:03] Really?

Rose Sorenson [00:38:04] Yeah. It's the best decision I ever made. People here are mostly. Most of the college students are atheists or agnostic or they're like, oh, I used to be Catholic and it's not a big deal. We can just talk about other things. It's not really a topic of conversation. If anything, it's just interesting. You know, they ask about, oh, is that magic underwear? True. We're out at the bars. Those are the sort of questions I get asked. And it's just a fun party topic, if anything.

John Dehlin [00:38:32] What do you, what do you base your morality in? Now, obviously, maybe alcohol or marijuana or sex. Maybe you don't see those things as bad or evil anymore. But. But a typical Mormon fear is, oh, my gosh, if you don't have the rules, you're gonna just go crazy and. And live a life that isn't healthy, that doesn't lead to happiness. Talk about that for a bit, if you don't mind.

Rose Sorenson [00:38:59] No, of course. I definitely felt that way when I was on my mission. And that was one of the reasons I was scared to leave is because I didn't want to go down that dark path of misery and destruction. And one of the benefits of thinking about what my moral decisions were going to be those last few months of my mission when I didn't believe. So I came back and I don't think that drinking, you know, word of wisdom, word, you know, law of chastity, are correct doctrines for everybody. And. But I follow my conscience. And something that my sister Mariah told me that helped me a lot is that you follow your conscience and your conscience may change from day to day. That, you know, sometimes, you know, you might feel bad about, you know, going out and getting too drunk. Let's say, well, guess what? That's perfect the next day. Let's change it. Let's not do that. Or sometimes you may feel perfectly fine doing that because you had a great time and you were with friends and you were just laughing. But I would say overall, compared to most people in Colorado, I'm fairly conservative. But I just follow what my heart tells me and what my conscience tells me is right or wrong. If I feel guilt or not has nothing to do with Mormonism. It has nothing to do with any doctrines, just what I feel day to day.

Life After the Mission and Finding New Values

John Dehlin [00:40:07] How have your anxiety and depression been since leaving the mission?

Rose Sorenson [00:40:12] Sure, so I've always been prone to anxiety and depression. But since I was finally able to get the help that I needed, I saw a psychiatrist and got some medication, saw some loving therapists, and it really is great. I can tell you that I haven't had a sad day in several months. And sure, my life's not perfect. There's gonna be ups and downs, don't get me wrong. But it is so more well managed because I don't have the Mormon guilt, because I've gotten the help that I needed, because I'm able to contact my, you know, loving family all the time, and I have a true sense of who I am and what I believe.

John Dehlin [00:40:49] So feeling better than maybe you did

Rose Sorenson [00:40:51] on your mission, that felt better than I ever have in my life. Felt better than, you know what I say 12, when it all started, felt better than any of those times.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] That's great. That's great. So. So do you. So do you have advice? Start out for bishops and stake presidents that are interviewing prospective missionary candidates? Any advice for them?

Rose Sorenson [00:41:22] I would. I don't know if I necessarily have any specific advice, because I think I had good bishops and stake presidents. I would say that in the rush of sending all these new missionaries off because of the age change. I did disclose that I had a tendency for depression and they said that they were going to have me meet with a therapist to make sure that I was good. Now, they never did. They never followed up on that, which, I mean, that's. I don't know what that means, but they probably should. It's good. And that they should realize that if they're not going to offer proper mental health care out on the mission, they need to make sure those missionaries realize what they're getting into.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] What advice would you give to mission presidents about dealing more effectively with missionaries who doubt.

Rose Sorenson [00:42:12] I would say actually talk to them, that they're struggling to not just brush it under the rug. But I would say that my mission president more or less didn't care what I had to say. He didn't want to. He didn't want to have to worry about it. The people often that are having a faith crisis on their mission, as we heard in the other parts of this series, have a lot of mental anguish going on. They should realize that and give them attention instead of worrying about the numbers.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] Your Mr. President was thinking about numbers a lot.

Rose Sorenson [00:42:51] Yeah. He was very high up in. In Doterra and so he had a very sales mind orientation. He wanted us all to be salesmen and get the perfect numbers and be as successful that way as we could.

John Dehlin [00:43:08] What advice would you give the church about mental health resources for missionaries?

Rose Sorenson [00:43:13] I would say to offer more. To offer more than three sessions. That. That is ridiculous. I remember you hearing sage that you. What do you say? Usually it's at six sessions that you can only barely begin to see any change on average.

John Dehlin [00:43:26] That's when you should expect to start seeing change. But not. But not, not necessarily enduring, lasting change, right?

Rose Sorenson [00:43:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:43:34] That's just when you can expect it to start making a difference.

Rose Sorenson [00:43:37] Yeah, I know that they did better. By the end of my mission, they gave us these packets about how to deal with anxiety and stress and different mental health concerns. And I thought that was a good step forward.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] Okay, good. How about how you were treated when you got home? I guess you didn't come home early, so you didn't have to deal with any of that.

Rose Sorenson [00:43:59] But I mean, back to what I was saying about with my mission president, the fact that I got an honor of release and I had a lot of missionary friends who did it that were way, you know, way had more of a belief than I did and converted more people than I did, but because at the very end, they did one thing wrong or because the mission president didn't believe they were really sick, they didn't get an honorable release. That made me feel guilty as I was sitting there telling the, you know, the. Was it the high council, that room, all the room of old white men that here, look, I'm a perfect returned missionary. No, I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:44:34] It's weird that they reward you for lying and they punish you for being honest.

Rose Sorenson [00:44:40] That's exactly how it feels. That's exactly how it feels.

John Dehlin [00:44:44] So overall, do you regret serving your mission?

Rose Sorenson [00:44:48] I do. I do regret that I had to feel all of that pain and loneliness and anguish and that I had to lie to people. But the one thing I do not regret and that I'm not sure I could have gotten somewhere else, it's my firm testimony the church is not true, that I sincerely believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not true. That's what I believe. And I got that for my mission and I am very grateful for that. I don't know if I could have gotten it anywhere else.

John Dehlin [00:45:19] How do you know it's not true?

Rose Sorenson [00:45:22] Well, how do people usually describe that the church is true, that they feel very calm and peaceful and that it makes sense? They have all those things that line up in their head, feel that way. I feel a burning in my bosom to tell you that this is not true, to live my life outside of the church, that I don't feel guilty, that I am so happy. I feel more sincere with this testimony than any testimony I've ever given in the 22 years that I was an active Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:45:55] So it just feels right to you?

Rose Sorenson [00:45:57] Yeah, I mean, I know that's no solid thing and that's because it's spirituality. It's harder to prove or disprove or say how you feel. But I can tell you that I'm 20, 24 now, that this is the most comfortable I've ever felt with my beliefs, the most sincere and genuine they ever felt, excellent.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] If There's a young 18 or 19 year old who's doubting their testimony and thinking about whether or not to serve a mission as a semi believer doubter or as a non believer, do you have advice to give them?

Rose Sorenson [00:46:38] Yeah, I think I would tell them because that's what I was, right. I was, you know, 19 years old trying to decide if I believed or not, that try and figure it out without a mission. But yes, that's how I got my answer and I'm grateful for that. But if I could have done More research or if I could have searched and pondered and prayed more and figured it out without a mission, I think my. I would not have wasted those that year and a half and I wouldn't have had as many struggles.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] So try and figure it out before you decide to go.

Rose Sorenson [00:47:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] Do you have any resources you would recommend to help them figure it out?

Rose Sorenson [00:47:12] I definitely love Mormon stories. I follow you on Facebook, the ex Mormon stories. I really appreciated the New Order Mormon. And even if you read the Book of Mormon, you can figure it out. You know, I wrote in there all sorts of contradictions that I found, all sorts of things that I didn't agree with, that I didn't feel comfortable with. You don't have. I mean, there's all sorts of sources, church sources that you can find that would help you figure it out for yourself.

John Dehlin [00:47:38] What about the Book of Mormon made you think that it wasn't true? Do you remember? You may not remember details, but I

Rose Sorenson [00:47:44] remember the introduction page. It says Joseph Smith's name as much times as it says Jesus Christ. Isn't that a little bit egotistical? Little things like that or the fact that the first half of the Book of Mormon, they refer to Christ and Jesus Christ. Sorry, Christ and God is more of trinitarian and near the end is when they separate out into the Godhead. Right. Those are things that I found out before reading anybody else's sources. Just from reading the Book of Mormon four or five times, you realize that there's inconsistencies.

John Dehlin [00:48:17] Okay. Okay, cool. And where's your family now in terms of belief? So you started out at some point, all eight of you believed, right?

Family Impact and Reflections on Belief

Rose Sorenson [00:48:29] Yeah, correct. So I'm gonna put my fingers here for people on the video. So I have eight siblings. Two left before I went on my mission. And then while I was on my mission, blissfully in Georgia, not really able to contact people. My mom, my sister Laura, and my brother Daniel all left the church. And then I came home and I decided to leave. So now it is my father and my oldest brother that are still active members of the church.

John Dehlin [00:48:56] Why'd your mom leave?

Rose Sorenson [00:48:58] My mom didn't believe for the last 20 years.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] I think she said holy moly.

Rose Sorenson [00:49:03] But she grew up in a family that was split, sort of. Mom believed, dad didn't, and she didn't like going to church and people judging her for that, the inconsistency. So she decided to believe and raise us because, you know, church has good standards, good morals, but she didn't want us to have the inconsistency. She did that for all six of us kids. Really, really brave, amazing woman.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] Wow. And then, and then what made her leave? Do you know?

Rose Sorenson [00:49:33] I know her big hold up, big hold ups were women in the priesthood. Yeah. If I had to claim one thing that was a real stickler for her, that would be it.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] You said she's an attorney, right?

Rose Sorenson [00:49:46] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] Yeah. Okay. Okay. Well, cool. Well, this has been wonderful. I really, really appreciate, Rose, you being willing to share your story with us. And I think it's an important piece to the overall series. So thank you so much for joining us. Do you mind ending with kind of what your testimony is now? And when I say testimony, I don't necessarily mean religious. Just what are the things you believe in now?

Rose Sorenson [00:50:15] Sure. I believe in being a good person. I believe that family is very important that I love mine so much. And I am very grateful for my dad, who is Mormon still. I just want to say that really quick that he taught us to be good people and to think for ourselves. So I think it's important to take that chip out and to think for yourself. And whatever decision that you make, whatever your conscience says, go with it. Have a lot more faith in yourself. And like I said before, I believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not true.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] You're a missionary still?

Rose Sorenson [00:50:53] Exactly. Well, this is the best mission I've served.

John Dehlin [00:50:58] All right, Rose. Well, thank you. Did I call you? Thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories listeners. If you're interested, please feel free to make comments@mormonstories.org Rose. Hopefully you can answer or respond to some of those comments. Please only post respectful comments. We don't want any disrespectful, mean spirited comments aren't necessary. We're going to be doing more in this series, so please tune in in the weeks and weeks and maybe even months ahead for more on this series. Also, just a quick thank you to those who financially support Mormon Stories. Your donations make this possible. All donations are tax deductible and go towards keeping the Open Storage foundation and this podcast and other podcasts alive. So if you're able and willing to support us, you can go up to MormonStories.org in the top right, there's a little PayPal button. You can choose how much you want to donate each month and that will be what allows us to keep this going. So thanks to everyone who supports us. Thanks for those who are willing to support us in the future and for those who live near New York City. I just wanted to remind everybody that October 14th, 15th and 16th, we'll be having a retreat in New York City. We've got some great people lined up. Abby Huntsman, the daughter of John Huntsman Jr. And the fox News correspondent, along with Carrie Sheffield, who also is a postmortem who works for Fox News. She's a graduate of Harvard, Masters in public administration. We're going to have Clark Johnson, who was an original cast member of the Book of Mortal Mormon musical there as well. And we're going to have some other special guests. So Please go to mormontransitions.org if you're interested in attending that retreat in New York City. We're going to have some fun. All right, Rose, you've been super patient. Thanks again for joining us. Please, please join us again.

Rose Sorenson [00:53:09] Thank you. John had a great time.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] Take. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Rose Sorenson [00:53:41] When with the wounded heart, anger or mouth, I draw myself apart, searching my soul.