Introduction and Episode Overview

Guest [00:00:00] We like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners. To help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community, Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 22, 2018, and we are so super excited to have Bishop Sam Young with us today. Say hi, everyone, Sam.

Sam Young [00:01:13] Well, greetings again.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] Greetings again. We've had Sam on several times on Mormon Stories podcast. Today we are doing an update. We're doing an update with Sam and the Protect LDS children.org initiative because, number one, Sam has been threatened. He's been labeled as an apostate by his church leaders. So we're going to dig into that and talk about threats for disciplinary council. His safety has been threatened by someone, and we're going to talk about that and sort of the price of being an activist. And then Sam's got future plans for protect ldschildren.org including March for the Children, which is an event that's going to be held March. March 30th in Salt Lake City, where we're going to March for the Children and deliver something to church headquarters at the end of the march. Is that right?

Sam Young [00:02:03] Yeah, we're delivering ice cream cones to all the employees at church headquarters.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] You just made that up. Is that true?

Sam Young [00:02:09] Okay, scratch the ice cream cones. No, we're delivering something super important. We're delivering the petition.

John Dehlin [00:02:15] Right.

Sam Young [00:02:16] Which contains.

John Dehlin [00:02:16] We'll talk about it.

Sam Young [00:02:17] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] Okay. So without any further ad. Let's see. So, Sam, let's begin by talking about your interactions with your stake president. It is super difficult to do anything in terms of activism within Mormonism, and as long as nobody pays attention, you're kind of fine. But as soon as people start paying attention, news media starts paying attention, and you start getting traction, the church gets nervous. And Mormon Stories has been sort of a podcast of record for so many people who have been on the receiving end of disciplinary councils, from myself to Kate Kelly to Deborah Snuffer to Marisa and Carson Calderwood. You know, so many different people. And we want to just make sure and record the history of your trajectory because it looks like it may be ending similarly. And we'll see. Maybe the church will get smart. Don't forget Lori Lee Hall. She also is someone we've chronicled. So, Sam, can you tell us about your interactions with your stake president, starting back as far as you want to go?

Sam Young's Journey with Church Leadership

Sam Young [00:03:41] Well, I'll just go back a year. Last January, I had an interaction with the stake president. I've been working with him and the bishop for about two years to form an outreach program for members that were struggling with questions about the church. They were having doubts. They were going through a faith transition. There's really no support within the church for people to ask questions and kind of work through that journey. So it is a very excruciating and lonely journey and we lose almost everybody that goes through that because the only place you have to reach out to is the ex Mormon community, which these are wonderful people in the ex Mormon community. But, you know, they're going to look at it a little bit differently as far as where they might encourage people to go as people within the church like me, that folks that are going through this transition, I can understand it. I wanted to be there to just to have a safe place for members to discuss their concerns whether they leave the church or not. At least they've got a vehicle to stay in the church and answer the questions from a faithful perspective. Anyway, we'd been discussing for two years. The last meeting had was January of last year. And that was to tell me they had decided not to do anything. Okay. Then this movement about protect LDS children started up. I've been reaching out to him for a long time. And finally, about three weeks ago, by

John Dehlin [00:05:13] the way, you've been doing this interesting tactic of writing them letters and then publishing the letters so that people know what you're communicating with them about. Am I right? Is that kind of.

Sam Young [00:05:26] I am publishing everything. I'm being transparent about everything. And here is the reason I'm doing that, unbeknownst to me. So I'm a member of some secret closed Facebook groups where you can discuss matters. And I had been discussing things for a good while and turned out there are spies in these groups that copy all the stuff you're thinking, all the stuff you're writing. Well, months worth of my posts and comments, which I write a lot, were copied and sent to my stake president. Now, I don't know if the guy edited them and edited out all the good stuff I said about my stake president because I was Relating how excited I was that we are going to be able to create a safe space. Our stake is going to lead out in this. But I don't know what was sent to the stake president, except this guy told me it's massive what you've written. I've sent it all to your stake president. Once that happened, I realized, you know what, if I am going to be spied on, I'm just going to be totally transparent. Whatever I post in the secret, in the groups that are supposed to be private, I'm putting it everywhere. I'm going to put it on my blog so that I don't have to worry about being spied on if you're going to spy on me. Hey, look, everybody knows the stuff already.

Guest [00:06:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:56] And I'm just going to say that this really follows the pattern. Denver snuffer Kate Kelly, myself, so many others that the church uses spies to track what people's online activities are, their freedoms, you know, their free expressions of conscience. In my case, they had home teachers, they had members of my stake High Council, and they had apologists with fair, with the Maxwell Institute, all secretly trying to gain access to groups spying on me in person and in private and all gathering information that they would collect and send both to church headquarters and to bishops and stake presidents. And I just think it's important for the world to know that in some ways the modern LDS Church acts like the KGB or the CIA. And yeah, they have every right to do that. But I just think people need to know. And part of what's so weird about it, and I learned this from Kate Kelly in her early processes, is the church doesn't always act fairly and transparently about why they do things. And so it has not been uncommon for them to actually malign and misrepresent people and give a different public reason for why they were excommunicated in terms of how they talk about it in the press versus kind of what's said behind the scenes. So if you're not transparent, you really do run the risk of the church misrepresenting and maligning you or innuendo being spread by apologists like Fair Mormon in the past or Daniel Peterson or others in the past who like to spread issues about it involving sexual matters or adultery or other sorts of things so that they can sort of spread

Guest [00:08:49] use

John Dehlin [00:08:49] smear tactics to kind of malign people's reputations so that the real reasons of why someone's experiencing a disciplinary council are hidden. And so I just think it's crucial that you're doing this. And so it's smart and it's sad that you need to.

Sam Young [00:09:03] So the church really struggles with transparency, and I'm not. I think that's a problem for my church. I think my church needs to get much better about that. Our handbooks, our policy books, those should not be hidden from the very members that those policies apply to. That's just one example of no transparency. So I am going to be as transparent as possible. So that was last. So I didn't have any communications for about a year. Not communications. I sent a lot of stuff. You can go to my blog. You can see letter after letter that I have sent to my local leaders. But. So about three weeks ago, the bishop and I met with the stake president. And the stake president asked me if I was an apostate. And I told him, well, no, I'm not an apostate. I'm glad. He asked me if I thought I was an apostate. And I told him, no, I wasn't. He said, well, Sam, you are an apostate. I said, well, no, I'm not an apostate. He said, yes, you are an apostate. And then he pulled out the definition of apostasy, which is if you openly oppose the church or its leaders, that's apostasy. So he read that, and my response was, I'm not opposing the church, which. I'm not opposing the church. I want the church.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] You are helping the church. You are like the church's best friend. You're saving the church so many lawyer fees and lawsuits. Right.

Sam Young [00:10:33] There are now people that are pushing me to incur. I don't even want to talk about that. Yeah, the church has a ton of liability on this. We need to make the changes not because of the liability of the church. We need to make the changes to protect our children from the terrible things that have happened to people. But the side benefit is that the church is going to look better in this whole thing. The side benefit is our bishops are going to be protected from the dangers they have of liability in. In taking a child all alone, behind closed doors and talking about sex. Let's see. You know what? I lost my train of thought, John. I'm great at that these days.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] No. So the bishop says, okay, apostasy. And then you're saying, I'm not.

Sam Young [00:11:23] Yeah, the bishop wasn't saying that. The stake presidency was.

John Dehlin [00:11:26] Right. Right.

Sam Young [00:11:27] And so when he read that, I said, I'm not attacking the church. I'm not attacking the leaders. I'm attacking. I'M openly opposing a policy. It's not doctrine that I'm opposing. It's not theology that I'm opposing. It's a crummy policy that we've got.

Apostasy Charges and the Church's Response

John Dehlin [00:11:44] But what they always do is they say that to ever defy your priesthood leadership is also grounds for apostasy. So we have that woman who's recently discussed that Mormon Leagues provided some of the audio for her interactions with their stake president or bishop. I don't. I don't even know the details. I think it's Tiercy Hadlock or something. And basically, last case, if you just don't obey your leaders, then you're an apostasy.

Sam Young [00:12:10] I was stunned at that, that.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] Are you stunned? Why are you stunned?

Sam Young [00:12:13] I was stunned at that interaction that was recorded where it basically was exactly that you have to obey the stake president. Well, wait a minute. Okay, so. But that's not. The stake president basically insisted that this was apostasy, that I was openly speaking out against the church and against its leaders. We didn't ever reach a meeting of the minds, that it was only about policy. He told me that he has an obligation to protect the good name of the church. I pushed back that this is not protecting the good name of the church to be harming our children. And then he said that I needed to stop speaking out in public, which I also said, well, I'm not going to stop doing that. And then had my press conference four days later in Houston and two major TV articles, really great TV articles. They spent a lot of time on this. So let me just tell you that I've got really good stake and bishop. They're really good leaders. I think what's happening here is we're all out of our depth. You know, I've never done this before. I don't know how to be an activist. I've made mistakes as I've gone along. I'm still making mistakes.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] What are some mistakes you've made?

Sam Young [00:13:34] Well, I think I've kind of roughed up my stake president in some of the communications I sent to him. And he brought up one of those where I said, what we're doing. Well, I don't want to say what I said, but he brought that up, too and said, here's what you had to say about me. Okay, well, that was on my blog. He didn't ask me to take it off of my blog. I took it off my blog anyway because it was a little bit harsh. So I think that was probably a mistake. But it got me an interview with the State president where I could.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] So they were avoiding interviews for a while.

Sam Young [00:14:14] Well, I don't know if they're avoiding or not. It sure seemed like that because I was reaching out to them for months, asking various questions and reaching out to them. So I don't know if they're avoiding. Maybe he was just totally busy. I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was very busy, which a stake president. It's amazing they have time to accomplish everything they do with a full time job too.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] But he felt a little beat up.

Sam Young [00:14:41] Well, I don't know how he felt. He brought that up and I could see that. I wouldn't say beat up. I think I treated him a little rough in some of my communications. I think I would rethink that. But I was getting very frustrated. Now. This is not a book I'm publishing. There's no way I would sell the stories of our sacred children. 360 people have written the hideous consequences that they endured as a result of bishop interviews. I've got 2,500 stories that people have shared with me. After a while, that gets in your soul, that gets in your brain, that gets in your heart. And when people, good people in the church continue to do these things, it has come out in anger sometimes. And that anger sometimes has been launched in my leaders. So I think I've made some mistakes in my communication with leaders.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] Okay. And we're not going to do these perfectly, you know.

Sam Young [00:15:42] Well, so what I think is that none of us really have a roadmap on this thing. The stake president and bishop who has ever faced this kind of situation before, where you've got a figure that has suddenly become public about an issue that the world cares about now, Kate Kelly's issue of the women getting the priesthood. The world really doesn't care too much about that.

John Dehlin [00:16:04] I don't know about that.

Sam Young [00:16:06] Well, maybe they all care about it. But no, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] There was global people. People cared globally about Kate Kelly.

Sam Young [00:16:13] So there's another mistake I made right there.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] No, it's okay. I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just saying people do care globally about women, but it's far fewer than should.

Sam Young [00:16:24] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] And people did care about my excommunication globally because it, you know, it represented the church acting in a medieval way, in a modern time, which is censoring and silencing people. So anyway, I'm. That's just my opinion.

Sam Young [00:16:41] Sure. But you're saying they've never handled.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] Are you saying, are you saying there's a different level of care with your initiative, which I'm totally open to talk about that.

Sam Young [00:16:51] Here's the care.

John Dehlin [00:16:52] I want you to be able to talk about that without, you know, having cater others feel.

Sam Young [00:16:56] Yeah. Here's the career is they have never faced anything like this before. How do you go about this? This is apostasy. Well, jeez, that can blow up in your face. Because I'm going to be open about that. And then if. Then what do you do at that point? It's just they've never faced this before. Who has faced this? Your stake president. He probably was out of his debt there. Kate Kelly's was probably out of his debt there. I think he was out of their debt.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] I almost feel sorry for them because they're kind of victims. I mean it's really not about them as people. They're victims.

Sam Young [00:17:33] Yeah. And so I need to. I'm coming to understand that better. So I don't fault my leaders. They're trying to sort things out and this is added to their plate where they already have a ton of serious issues that. And just running a stake and running award. There's a ton of stuff there.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] Yeah.

Sam Young [00:17:57] So.

John Dehlin [00:17:57] Okay, so how did you leave it with your stake president? So you're disagreeing with him about what is and is an apostasy. He's frustrated with you about how you've characterized him or potentially sensitive about that. How did you leave it with him?

Sam Young [00:18:16] That I was not going to stop speaking out about this. And that was pretty much the end of our. That was a three hour meeting. So the first two and a half hours I was talking about what we're doing to our kids now. The response was we don't need to make any changes. We're not going to make any changes.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] Did he show concern about the children? Did he show any empathy for what you were saying?

Protecting Children from Harmful Interviews

Sam Young [00:18:39] Okay, so I presented. I presented here.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] I hold it.

Sam Young [00:18:45] I presented the book. I brought two. One for the bishop, one for the stake president. And he was really good. Now I really love that he did this. He put his hand on the book and he said, I believe all these stories and it's shame on the people that caused this to happen. And that was it.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] Okay, but did he acknowledge that there was a problem? Did he acknowledge that something.

Sam Young [00:19:10] No, no, he did not acknowledge the problem. He said, we don't have a problem. We don't need to make any changes. He said that I was way behind the times. And, you know, so we discussed why I.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] You were way behind the times.

Sam Young [00:19:23] Yeah, the church has already made the changes. The church had come out with a statement after the petition march up here. And I pointed out, well, yeah, they came out with a statement and it's a really crummy statement, but it was. I'm glad they did it because it basically says one on one interviews behind closed doors. Parents might be able. Might wait outside, somebody. We encourage a parent or an adult to be somewhere in the building and the. The bishop can ask whatever the spirit whispers in his ear. Well, yeah, that's the exact problem. I'm glad they did that. I'm glad the church did state what our interview process was. So anyway, we talked for two and a half hours about that issue and I credit them for giving all that time. And then for a half an hour it was back and forth on I'm apostate.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] Okay, so.

Guest [00:20:15] So

John Dehlin [00:20:18] he basically said, we're doing fine, you need to stop, you're an apostasy. And you told him, I'm not going to stop?

Sam Young [00:20:26] Basically, yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] Did he say that a disciplinary council might be.

Sam Young [00:20:31] He did not intimate any disciplinary council. But here's the way I interpret it. What he read about apostasy directly out of the handbook. The handbook says that if you are in apostasy, that's a mandatory disciplinary counsel. So if we have a disciplinary counsel and I'm sitting there saying I'm not going to stop working to protect the children, well, what is the outcome if you're not meeting their demands, the church's demands? Well, it's excommunication. I still. John, I want to say there's no way anybody is going to excommunicate me for standing up for the children and standing up openly, that might happen, but that is not deterring my cause at all.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] So one of the criticisms that I received from people that really don't matter, but the criticism gets out there is that I wanted excommunication, that I was seeking it. Right. And I'm just wondering, some might say, if you're saying, hey, you called me an apostate, like, do something about it. Some might say that you're kind of seeking excommunication, that you want it.

Sam Young [00:21:41] So I do not want it. But you know what? Him calling me an apostate, frankly, I think is a good thing. Him defining that, that it's speaking out against the church and against the leaders and they have to protect the church's good name. I looked at and said, I need to change how I'm talking about this because I really am speaking for my church. I'm speaking for the protection of my leaders and I'm certainly seeking to protect the good name of the church. Somebody that is fighting the petition and saying, no, no, no, we want to have one on one interviews. We want to continue to be the most dangerous church in America. The only one we've got a safe haven for pedophiles. You want to talk about. We've created a paradise for pedophiles to come to. We've got it. No fingerprints, no training, no background checks. Behind closed doors, interviews. Yes, you can talk about sex. Yes. All that grooms the children for the pedophile. He knows that vulnerable children. They watch the kids. They watch the kids. And they can spot who's going to be vulnerable. Vulnerable. And they start working on them because they know they've been already groomed to talk about sex behind closed doors. If you're fighting for this, you know what? You are going to make our church look bad. Come on the side of the petition. Join the 15,000. Let's make the church look good.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] Yeah. It seems like what the church should be doing is teaching children to never tolerate an adult to be asking them inappropriate sexual questions privately. And that, you know, not only for themselves, but when they become parents and have children, they should be learning that certain conversations are just never appropriate without a parent involved. Isn't that what should be happening?

Sam Young [00:23:39] Absolutely. That's happening everyplace else. We're the only institutional church in America that tolerates this kind of behavior. That's institutionalized in our church. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] Yeah. Okay. So from your perspective, you're not an apostasy. So going back to this question of you wanting excommunication, it sounds like, I mean, what I think would be tempting as someone who's been through something similar, is just to feel like, hey, excommunication will bring more media attention. And so you want to kind of dare the church to act because it will help the cause. Do you relate to that at all?

Sam Young [00:24:20] Well, I've heard many people say that very thing that. Sam, it's going to be really good when you get excommunicated. That's going to go to the national news. Well, guess what? It's going to go to the national news regardless. Excommunication doesn't matter. That would make it a more juicy story. I don't want it to be more juicy. From that standpoint, the story speaks for itself. That is what speaks for our children. Not my excommunication. This. The media is. We've got national media. It is coming. John. This march with 1,000 people. That's going to be a historic thing. It's going to be a beautiful thing when the church makes the changes. But the national media is going to be interested in this.

John Dehlin [00:25:03] So what if somebody says, Sam, you don't really believe that the church is true. You don't really believe that the leaders speak for God. So attempts to change the church are really insincere. I've heard very prominent people say behind closed doors that unless you're a literal believer working diplomatically behind the scenes with the power structures that be from within, you're really not a friend of the church. What if someone were to argue that your tactics are likely to backfire, create the backfire effect, make the churches less likely to make the change. And you're actually not a good actor because you're not an orthodox faithful member.

Sam Young [00:25:48] So I would say I have a lot more respect for those apostles than that person that is telling me that for somebody to say, sam, they are going to not make any changes because it's now public people are calling for these changes. It's been called for in the national media, been called for in the local media that they would use the. They would get defensive and say, we're not going to do the right thing because people want the right thing. No, they're going to do the right thing. These are good people. Okay, I believe they're good people.

John Dehlin [00:26:28] But Sam, they've showed time and time again that they struggle to do the right thing, or at least the right thing as we believe, like for them. What if the right thing for them is that the law of chastity is super important and children and youth especially need the guidance and support of their priesthood leaders on matters of chastity and that's the right thing to them.

Sam Young [00:26:52] So that is not what the petition is all about. Okay, Whether or not the law of chastity is important, it's about whether the.

John Dehlin [00:26:59] Whether children need leaders to help them live the law of chastity, their counsel and guidance.

Sam Young [00:27:05] Okay, so that's one thing, whether the leaders can be involved in teaching about chastity. But our deal is it shouldn't take place behind closed doors one on one. And there should not be sexual, explicit sexual questions asked behind the closed door, period. It shouldn't even happen with the adult, with the parent. But if the parent's there, at least they can control the situation.

John Dehlin [00:27:37] So what if their reasoning is that a kid is going to be less likely to be candid and honest and open in front of a parent? That they need that confidentiality with the bishop because maybe there are things that they wouldn't want to tell their parent or that they might trust the bishop in sharing.

Sam Young [00:27:58] So that's a super good point. And so the petition calls for no one on one interviews. There should always be a parent, which that's the preference, or another adult of the child's choosing. So somebody that the child has confidence in, somebody that's going to represent the child in that interview like a parent would, somebody that's going to protect the child from anybody ever. Asking that child, how many fingers did you use when you masturbated? That's a question that puts so much shame on our children. It's been asked many children. It should. I can't imagine a parent tolerating that kind of question or another person of a trusted somebody that is chosen by the child to be with them.

John Dehlin [00:28:44] So what do you think is most likely. What is the most likely outcome, do you think. Do you think they're planning to deliver a letter? Because that's.

Sam Young [00:28:55] No, I don't think they are.

John Dehlin [00:28:57] In my experience, they have a process. And the process is you're warned that you are in apostasy. You have now been warned, and the next step is them delivering a letter saying that you've been called to a disciplinary council on a certain date.

Sam Young [00:29:16] So I have no idea what they will do. I think, again, this is something new to them. They don't know exactly how to proceed. But I'm not concerned about that. I actually don't care about that. This is what I care about. So if they send me a letter, fine, I'll figure out what to do with that. But I am going to go forward, along with 15,000 other roaring lions, thundering voices, to call for the protection of our children, regardless of whether I get a letter. And I have no idea if I will. I just doubt I will.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] Would you be spiritually. Do you feel like there would be any spiritual legitimacy to your being excommunicated?

Sam Young [00:29:58] Absolutely none. Not one drop.

John Dehlin [00:30:00] Why not, if you believe they're God's servants?

Sam Young [00:30:04] Well, I believe they're men and they admit that they are men and they're fallible. I mean, I love that, that in the last few years they've been saying that, that they are men and they make mistakes so good. Fine, I got that. So that they speak with God. Well, I don't know when they do or when they don't. I just know we've made a ton of mistakes over the years. We have now condemned our past Racism, We've disavowed the past doctrines that we had surrounding race and the priesthood. If we have to disavow and condemn what we were doing, you know what, we were not doing the right things. Somebody made a mistake along, a whole bunch of people made mistakes. And I love it that our current apostles have had the courage, now if they've had the courage to condemn and disavow teachings, I think they're going to have the courage to stand up and say, yep, we are going to protect our children. We, you know, the baptismal rates in the country are down, in the world are down. The conversions. If the world knew when those missionaries knocked on the door what was in store for their 12 year old daughter when they go to church. Nobody's going to join the church. We don't want to hamper the missionary efforts either. I mean, so this is going to protect the children, protect the bishops, protect the church. Well, now how about protecting, enhancing the, the message that we have to the world as opposed to, we got all this great stuff and we're going to ask your child to masturbate behind closed doors and you're not going to know about it. So I can't remember your question, but there's your answer.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Do you really care about baptism rates? Are you really concerned about the church's baptism rates or is that just rhetoric?

Sam Young [00:31:53] So John, you know, I was very interested in creating a safe place for people to talk about their questions and concerns because you don't have it at church. And a big part of that was I recognized that the church for some people doesn't work. They have made the decision to leave and it was a good decision to leave. But unfortunately that was the only decision on the table. The only option on the table. They didn't have the other option of, hey, here's how you can work through these things. Here's how you can look at them like for me it is, we got gigantic problems with our history. I don't care about our history. I care about what we're doing today. If we got good stuff today, then it's good for people. So for people to join the church, I'm okay with that because they're intelligent human beings making a decision, what is best for them. I respect and applaud that decision. But I don't think it's good that we have what is waiting for them behind closed doors in the chapels.

Live Audience Questions and Member Support

John Dehlin [00:32:59] We've got about 15 minutes left of this interview. We have 256 people joining us live. It's One of the largest live audiences we've ever had on Mormon Stories podcast. I want to encourage people to make comments or questions right now. You can ask Sam directly any questions or comments. If you have criticisms for Sam, we want to hear those, too.

Sam Young [00:33:21] No. No, we don't.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] I'll read a couple. Richard writes, if this church is so great, why are so many leaving by agency?

Sam Young [00:33:31] That's a good question, and that is a super question. You read through the stories. So many people, this is what caused them to leave the church, is the shame, how they were treated behind closed doors by good bishops. Unintended consequences. They didn't know what they're doing. They're untrained. But as a result of the hideous consequences that they experienced, they left the church.

John Dehlin [00:33:58] Yeah, they did all right. Emmanuel writes, they will have the courage in 10 years and make people believe it has nothing to do with you, but it's because they had revelation from God. That is absolutely true. If you look at all the changes made with women in the church, they simultaneously made a bunch of changes and then punished ordained women for being the instigators for that change. If you look at the work that we've done with Mormon stories, work with Hans Mattson, with Marlon Jensen, and with all the other people that contributed to that, it is absolutely 100% guaranteed true that our work helped contribute to make the essays and the church's transparency a reality. And they excommunicated me and are trying to smear Mormon stories because they never want it to look like revelation comes from the grassroots. They want it to always look like the revelation comes from above. And they're going to. You know, that's basically what Emmanuel is saying with you as well.

Sam Young [00:35:01] So can I comment on that?

John Dehlin [00:35:02] Yeah, please.

Sam Young [00:35:02] Okay, so here's what I would love to have happen. I don't need any credit for this. If they make the change, I want to look at them and say, super, they made the change. But here's what I'd love to have happen is that between now and March 30th or soon thereafter, they were to come out and say, we've been preoccupied with. The prophet has had health problems and health issues, so he hasn't been fully functioning for a good while. We've just had a change in leadership with a new prophet. We've got two new apostles that we're going to be calling. All this is big stuff on their plate. But now they announce we've been working on these changes for the last year. We are so thankful that when God gives Revelation, it's not just to the apostles, but he works through the good members of the church, too. And so thank heavens, this revelation that we've now received from God to make these changes, the members are already on board with it. So that God has not stopped giving revelation because the prophet was incapacitated. He's working through his people, too. So I don't know if that will happen. But you know what? It could be the case where they've already been working through this stuff, and they're going to be making those announcements soon.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] Joyce writes, bigotry, sexism, and abuse of LGBT people will never become acceptable in a religion. That's not your cause today, but people are associating your cause with LGBT causes. What do you think about that?

Sam Young [00:36:37] Associating it with lgbt? What does that mean?

John Dehlin [00:36:39] I mean, they're bringing up LGBT comments in this conversation. What are your thoughts on that?

Sam Young [00:36:44] Okay, this change, you know, here in Utah, there's a gigantic suicide rate bigger than any place in the country, like three times the average of the country. And I think a lot of that, the LGBT issues, play into that. But you know what? This issue about all the shame we're putting on children, I think also plays into it. When you look at these stories, is it two thirds of them where the adults said that as kids, they thought about suicide or they continued to think about suicide when their 20s, their 30s, their 40s, or they attempted suicide? And the horrible sadness is there are people, there are kids that have died by suicide because of the shame they couldn't get rid of from what was happening. In these interviews now, you will also find a ton of stories where it is about an LGBT kid that went behind closed doors with the bishop, and the bishop said some pretty bad stuff, that if that stuff was said to me, I would be damaged for I don't know how long. We're not trained. We certainly don't know how to address these things. And the kids often don't even understand their own sexuality. And then they're talking to a bishop that doesn't understand it, and he says things that are hurtful. So this will actually help our LGBTQ kids to get sex completely out of the purview of the bishop and have somebody else there just to make sure that it doesn't go off track.

John Dehlin [00:38:27] Kristen writes, this has a lot to do with LGBT children questioning their orientation and bishop shaming them into thinking their way of love is perverse. Chris Keever writes, john, my wife and I love you and what you are doing. I remember as A youth, the pressure I felt as a teenager to be perfect and if I feared the shaming that could possibly follow living in a smaller community, I feel like I didn't want that for our children and we don't attend church anymore. I thank you and Sam for your efforts and hope this helps our younger generations. Beck writes. Sam, thank you for acknowledging as a member that the suicide rate is correlating with the LDS Church. You are a testament of an amazing member of this church. Thank you. Hopefully change is to come. I'm no longer a member, but we must help these kids. Natasha Alfred Parker writes, the reason LGBT Issues comes up with this issue is because this population has been toxically shamed in these interviews. Same with masturbation. Thank you, Natasha. When we make normal behaviors and feelings sin, these problems come up in interviews on a regular basis. And I have to add one comment. Jenny writes, one in five high school students report that they have suicidal thoughts according to Salt Lake Tribune 2018. And there's just one comment that I had to read that was really heartbreaking. It basically said, melissa writes the interviews and the pamphlets given to me as a child made me wish for death. What would you say to Melissa?

Sam Young [00:40:02] Melissa, I'm sorry that happened to you. It was wrong. The shame that you experienced from everything, including the teachings that we shouldn't be teaching that masturbation is next to murder. I'm sorry that happened.

John Dehlin [00:40:19] Or sex out of wedlock. Right.

Sam Young [00:40:23] Murder is murder. Okay. Once we start comparing sexuality to that, it hurts our kids so much.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] What if it's in the Book of Mormon, though?

Sam Young [00:40:34] Well, wonder if it is in the Book of Mormon. Let's interpret the thing differently than we interpret it today. There's a lot of things that we interpreted at one point in time, one way, and we changed how we interpret that. Okay, so Melissa, let me just say, I hear you. We see you. We're sorry that happened and we are working hard to make sure that kind of thing does not happen to the kids in the future.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] We are Tim Burt writes, and we're going to be interviewing Tim Burt soon. He is an LCSW working in Idaho. He's got some great information and stories for us about what he's done. So shout out to Tim. He writes, we are making a difference by asking members to talk to their bishops and setting boundaries on interviews and other issues. Yeah. What's the call to members, Sam, for active believing members, what can they do?

Sam Young [00:41:24] Okay, so here's I don't know when the church is going to make a change. Church Leadership, but the church itself, the members, we can make the change right now. Parents, number one, don't allow behind closed doors, all alone with your child to happen. Be in every. Not some, be in every interview. Don't allow sexual questions to come up. Take control. Take responsibility for the sexual development of your own child. I wish I'd done that. Maybe I thought I had done that. I didn't know it had been taken away from me behind my back, behind closed doors, in my own congregation. So, parents, make sure this doesn't happen to your own children. Talk to your bishops. Let them know your concerns. Let them know your boundaries, the boundaries of your family. No one on one interviews, no talking about sex. So there's a lot there. I hear every single day of parents doing this. Some parents are successful. And I got an email last night, hey, the bishop said, absolutely, you can be in every interview. How cool is that? But there are also parents that are getting pushback to say you can't be in the interviews. And if you insist on that, then your child can advance. But that's number one for parents. Number two, bishops, quit doing this right now. You have liability if you keep doing this. Bad things are happening in your watch.

John Dehlin [00:42:47] Sam, talk briefly about bishops and stake presidents that have reached out to you to actually show support for what you're doing.

Sam Young [00:42:54] Well, I'm still expecting my bishop and stake president to express support. That hasn't happened yet, but they're in a tough spot. I haven't had any stake presidents reach out to me, but I have had bishops. There are three sitting bishops that have signed the petition. There are another seven bishops I know of that have either reached out to me or been reported to me that have stopped doing this.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] Did the bishops sign it using their names and are they public or are they private?

Sam Young [00:43:20] None of them are public, so they call me.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] Is that interesting?

Sam Young [00:43:24] Well, yeah, It'd be nice if we had that culture where you could be open. But there's a problem with that. If your business is all tied up with Mormon, good Mormon people, it's likely that you are going to lose some of that business. If you are open about things. A bishop, what kind of consequences does he incur with his stake president? Is he going to be released? Who knows what? But we don't have a culture yet where we can be as open and honest as we'd like to. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] Oh, go ahead.

Sam Young [00:43:56] I just said we got to get to the March before 11:45.

John Dehlin [00:43:59] No, we will for sure. That's how we're going to end okay. Jen Holley writes, the church should have a bishops in training program where they get the training four to six years before they are instituted as bishop. A degree or degrees. Other religions have trained clergy. It shows the lack of it in Mormonism. Having dentists, realtors and businessmen trying to counsel people is so damaging they overstep. And this is such a chaotic patriarchal system. Yeah, the church kind of brags that it's got lay clergy. What are your thoughts on training of bishops and stake presidents?

Sam Young [00:44:33] Well, it would become a lot less problematic if we didn't allow one on one interviews and if we didn't talk about sexual. We're never going to get the bishops trained to where they're experts on this. So let's just get it out of that purview. Let's get it back into the home, back in the family. But yeah, that's a big hole. We don't have good training.

John Dehlin [00:44:57] Daniel writes, they'll come around eventually, though it might take a few generations of leaders. In my case, the faith crisis became devastated when realizing that all the shaming that nearly drove me over the edge was for nothing. It hurts so much and I still struggle with it. Matters of sexuality need to be addressed, not demonized. Sending you lots of love from Norway. Sam, what do you have to say to Daniel?

Sam Young [00:45:21] Daniel, someday my dream is to travel to Norway. So there's what I have to say. But yeah, let me just say I am sorry that what happened to you with regards to all this inappropriate, unnecessary shame. We are working hard and I know you're working with us. We're working hard to totally eliminate this from the good church that I'm a member of.

John Dehlin [00:45:45] Jesse, stay our good friend Jesse. Hi, Jesse. He writes. I'm curious if Sam has come to see any way we can sue the church over leaders refusing to listen to us about one on one interviews when we object. I'm curious about what legal ground I have. I'm really serious about wanting to, to sue the church on my kids. Bishops ignoring my requests and you know, could it be argued that there's a class action lawsuit awaiting for the harm that the church is doing to children?

Sam Young [00:46:16] I can't tell you how many people have called for a class action lawsuit. That's not what the petition is about. I think the church needs to be really worried about that because there's now a safe place for people to express what the problems are that they experience. And parents are realizing the dangers for their children. And if bishops are pushing back against this, and now we know the harm that's coming, that's a huge liability for the church. But I'm not a lawyer or anything, so I don't know much about that. We are just pushing to get rid of that so that you won't have to worry about this happening to your children.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] Some people might think that this is like a movement largely of non believing post and ex Mormons. We have a comment from Tony Peterson. He says, sam, thanks for your patience in dealing with active members like me. As we work to protect the children, the bishops and the church in a me too world like we have now, it makes sense for everyone involved to make these changes. No changes in doctrine is necessary. You are doing God's work. Talk to the extent to which you have acting believing members supporting what you're doing.

Sam Young [00:47:33] Okay, we have a bunch of active. I don't know the count, I just know it's a lot because again, I now have people reaching out to me just like Tony right there. Tony wrote an essay, we put it on our blog about why he decided to support the petition. And they're all good reasons that every single member would agree with. And I've had more people reaching out to me. You and I were talking about somebody that has quite a voice in the Mormon community. I don't know if he's quite ready to go public with that, but once people see that it's safe to come out in public like Tony. I don't know if Tony's received a lot of pushback, but once people see that there are people speaking up, oh good, I can speak up. That is starting to happen.

John Dehlin [00:48:23] Jake writes. Sam, what do you say when people claim that you have an agenda? And I'm going to qualify because I know you're going to say your agenda is the children and the church. What do you say when people say you have a hidden agenda that isn't the agenda that you're stating publicly?

Sam Young [00:48:39] Well, I don't have a hidden agenda. I'm about as transparent as you can get. There are things, I mean, hidden. What the hell do I hide? It's all out there in the open. All the.

John Dehlin [00:48:53] How about all the money you're making from this?

Sam Young [00:48:56] All the money I'm making from this? Yeah, all the money.

John Dehlin [00:48:59] Have you invested personal money in this, John?

Sam Young [00:49:02] I really don't want to go into the. I don't want my wife to hear the amount. Actually, my wife knows what I've invested in this. It's a ton of money. It's a ton of money.

John Dehlin [00:49:12] I'm going to say Thousands of doll. Would it be fair to say that,

Sam Young [00:49:15] well, you're getting close. When you say thousands, it's a ton of money and time. Well, the time. It's basically more than a full time. I don't know how many hours. I spend 10 hours a day, 12 hours a day on this. And now I don't get to all the stuff that I'm asking to people reaching out to me. So let me apologize to everybody that are sending me emails and messages and all kinds of things. Have patience. I'm going to try to get it to it all, but I know I won't. So just. I thank you for sending the messages and thank you for the support. But yeah, it's become a huge time. Has a huge time demands at this point.

John Dehlin [00:49:59] It's interesting that you're getting some bishops supporting you and then other bishops not. What are you hearing from members that actually go to bishops and try and have this thoughtful conversation with them? If you had to give a pie chart of like percentage of bishops are responding this way versus that way. Are you seeing variability in how bishops respond when members.

Sam Young [00:50:21] Maybe 60%, yeah, that's a good idea. We'll do it for your child. 40% saying, no, we're going to hold your child back in his priesthood ordinations. We're going to not give temple recommends if you insist on being present. So it actually is most of the bishops, but again, this is a small John. I still don't have a huge reach. The vast majority of Mormonism never heard of this, even though we think it's big. That's why we're continuing to work for the things that bring attention and awareness, so people will be aware of what's going on.

John Dehlin [00:50:55] Cecelia writes, do you think your relationship with John Dehlink influence the decision to charge you with apostasy?

Sam Young [00:51:02] No, I don't.

John Dehlin [00:51:05] All right. Why are you willing to be associated with accused apostates?

Sam Young [00:51:19] I love the gospel of Jesus Christ. That's what's driving me to do exactly what I'm doing. How beautiful are the teachings and example of Jesus Christ? One of his teachings is to love your enemies. Now, John's never been an enemy of mine. I've known him since he was 8 or 9 or something like that, and then lost track of him for 50 years. But Christ says to love your enemies. I found something out really interesting over the last year and it is Christ did not complete the statement he left. He gave us half of the phrase and the other half I have discovered at this point. He said Love your enemies. And here's the rest of what he could have said. Love your enemies and they'll become your friends. So I'm going to love whoever is an enemy of mine. I'm going to look for a way. Sometimes that's hard. It's not hard for John because I never considered him an enemy. But somebody that's considered an enemy, I am going to love them. You know, Tony that wrote this essay and is an extremely faithful member of the church. We were never enemies, but boy, we were at odds when we started discussing because he had all these suspicions and what are you trying to do? Attack the church? Attack the leaders. We had that nice conversation and sure enough, we came out as dear friends at this point. So I'm not going to avoid people that somebody considers an enemy of the church and I should stay away from them. My savior said, sam, you go love your enemies and you'll discover they'll become your friends. So there's why I'm not going to walk away from you, my dear friend.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] I appreciate that. One of our listeners, I have a couple more questions and then we're going to hit. Maybe I'll be a little late to lunch. Are you late to lunch? Okay, just somebody said, what about the scenario of a kid that's being sexually abused by their parents? You know, they need to be able to talk to a bishop in confidence so that the bishop can protect them. What would you respond to?

Sam Young [00:53:31] That is a super good question. Go to the petition, read the petition, sign the petition. And what it says is there should be no one on one interviewseither the parent or another trusted adult chosen by the child so that now you read through the stories. We have had horrible experiences with bishops untrained, handling a child, coming to them about sexual abuse in their home, horrid stories, how they were, how the untrained bishop treated them. Well, let's take that out of a one on one situation. Let's put another adult in there. Hopefully that adult will help protect the child from these questions. I'm hoping that the adults that are the bad actors, the bishops that are the bad actors, that asking these terrible things would not ask it when somebody else is in that room that's not a parent. So there it is. Let's not do it one on one, but provide the avenue for the child to come talk to the bishop.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] One of the things that hasn't sort of been discussed on Mormon stories is a few weeks ago the Utah state legislature tried to offer a bill that would make it illegal for Someone being interviewed by their bishop or stake president to record that conversation. Do you have thoughts about that? And that it was backed explicitly by the church and originally one of the two legislators who proposed that bill denied that the church had any involvement with Steve Urquhart. We broke that story and within a day the church was admitting that it was definitely encouraging legislators to support that bill, which in my mind means the church was really behind the bill, most likely. What are your thoughts and reactions to the church trying to make it harder for there to be transparency and accountability in terms of these interviews?

Sam Young [00:55:32] I think we need to go the exact opposite direction that they need to be more transparent. We need as opposed to stuff happening behind closed doors. And now we say we're going to make everything possible, that it doesn't come out what happened behind those closed doors? No, we need to have more transparency. More transparency protects everybody that is in the right lack of transparency. That protects the bad actors.

The March for the Children and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [00:56:02] All right, so let's close because we have to end and you've got a march coming.

Sam Young [00:56:06] March, yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:07] Okay, so let's talk about the march. What is it? Where is it? How can we help out?

Sam Young [00:56:12] On March 30, 2018, there's going to be a march for the children here in Salt Lake City. We're going to gather at the City county building. March the five blocks. I measured it yesterday. It's 7.7 miles, so not even a mile. We're going to walk, but we're going to walk those five blocks to the church office building and deliver there. The how many ever signatures? The initially I wanted 10,000 signatures. We're well over 15,000 at this point. We're going to deliver the names of the signatories to the church and we're going to be delivering the sacred stories of the sacred children whose childhoods were destroyed behind closed doors. Now, this is again to bring awareness. If this is already on the minds of apostles and they've been talking about this for a good while, great. It's just going to confirm what they're already looking at, but it's going to raise the awareness. This is going to be a historic thing. We're standing up to protect our church, protect our children, protect our bishops. I don't know. I know Kate Kelly did some marching, but this is just going to be a huge thing. We expect at least 1000 people come join us. Come stand up, speak up, take a short walk with us. And your children, your grandchildren will be proud of what you did. You'll have a story to tell going forward about what you did to protect your children.

John Dehlin [00:57:47] And if you know this march isn't responded to, will the march become an ongoing, regular thing? Do you have plans after the march at all?

Sam Young [00:57:57] No. Nope.

John Dehlin [00:58:00] Last march ever?

Sam Young [00:58:01] No, of course not. I'm out to protect the children. If this does not reach the awareness where most of the church, most of the parents now know what is happening. Because I can't tell you how many people said, oh, nobody asked those questions. This isn't happening until. So I don't know what's going to happen after the march. I have a limited focus as it is, so I'm just out to march is what we're looking at. We may do things after that. Oh, by the way, come get a free sandwich. Last night somebody volunteered and said, we will provide 1,000 sandwiches from a restaurant here in town. So come eat a sandwich with us and then we're going to take a march.

John Dehlin [00:58:47] All right, last question. So, yes, everyone, I'm going to show up with my family. I think my dad, Dave Delin, even signed up for the march. I'm going to bring any of my kids that want to come. Let's have a party. Let's have fun. Let's have sandwiches. Let's protect the children. Be there on March 30th with us. Let's have over a thousand people. Last question for you, Sam. Recently it was reported that you received an email kind of receiving a threat to your safety and the safety of your family. What do you want to say about that?

Sam Young [00:59:20] Well, come to the march. Come to the march. Let's make that a big deal. Yes, I got a threat. It was not kind of a threat. It was a threat against me, my business and my family. I took it very seriously. I've taken it to the police, I've taken it to the church. We'll see what happens on that. But that is not going to. Frankly, it has caused my gut to wrench when I think about this, what the consequences could be. But I had never received a threat like this before. Now I'm putting that behind me. I'm going on a march. I'm going to. We're going to protect.

John Dehlin [00:59:56] It is harrowing to. It's hard enough to do this work. It must be super hard to do this work and to feel like your safety or the safety of your family might be threatened.

Sam Young [01:00:08] Yes, that's a big deal. I don't know if somebody came to me and said, here's what I have been threatened. Here's how I've been threatened. I Don't know if I would be able to. In fact, I know I wouldn't be able to empathize with him. I probably would have said, geez, that's really terrible, how you doing? But I wouldn't have felt inside what I feel inside. You probably can relate to me as having received threats to you person, to your business. My wife told me the other day, she said, sam, I'm really not. I don't think they would attack me or the kids. I'm concerned about you, but I'm really concerned about somebody attacking the business, attacking our office where it shut down our office for a period of time that that could affect our income. So, yeah, it's been a. It's played some mind games with me, but the cause is too important. We're moving forward.

John Dehlin [01:01:04] All right, well, I just want to thank the hundreds and hundreds of people that have joined us live for this event. Thank you for your comments and questions. Want to thank everyone who supports Protect LDS children. Jonathan Streeter has been super helpful. Natasha, Alpha, Parker, Tim, Burt, anyone else you want to shout out for their support? There's probably too many.

Sam Young [01:01:23] Yeah, there's a ton that. So thanks everybody that is helping with this because it is a bunch.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] Yeah. And thanks to everyone who's joined us today. Thanks for your support of Mormon Stories. Those of you who support Mormon Stories, make this possible. If you want to be able to keep Mormon Stories alive, the Open Stories foundation alive to be able to help be a megaphone and an amplifier for these good works. Please support us today@mormonstories.org $10 a month, $20 a month, $100 a month, whatever you can afford. You know, we are trying to play an important role in building public awareness and transparency and accountability. And Sam, I just can't tell you how proud I am to be your friend, your supporter, how much we love and respect you, how effective we think you're being and we're gonna fight with you till the end and beyond.

Sam Young [01:02:14] Thank you very much. I appreciate it and I really appreciate your support all the way through this thing. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] Alright, love you, Sam.

Sam Young [01:02:20] Love you, my brother.

John Dehlin [01:02:22] All right, everybody, thanks for joining us. Take care. So long and we'll see you guys again soon on Mormon Stories Podcast. Please share this episode on your Facebook walls. Please like the Mormon Stories podcast page. Please give the Mormon Stories podcast page a favorable review. Right now there are people that give us negative reviews just to talk bad about what we're doing. Please go to itunes. Give us a favorable review on itunes as well. Please Check us out at Instagram, Mormon Stories and Twitter. Anything you can do to promote our social media and our credibility there, especially by liking the Mormon Stories podcast, Facebook page and sharing these things on your walls. If you have the courage and ability to do so, makes all this possible. And come to the march. Come to the march.

Sam Young [01:03:09] March. March. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:10] All right. Take care, everybody. Sure. Love you. Appreciate the support. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rocks is a featured single on Angela Sof's upcoming album Second Wind, inspired by her struggle with the faith journey out of Orthodox religion. You can find and follow her on social media as Angela sof band. That's s o f f e on Spotify or angelasof.com.

Guest [01:04:05] So judge me cast me your stones I will lay them back at your feet Take my hand let's walk among we like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do I don't know why we all say Stand in a circle and point a finger or two Tell me how can you see what is buried beneath a mountain of smiles we're all thrown in the same blue water of the unknown so leave your rocks at home. The truth is not what it seems we are told to just be believing the story has never been told and we all need someone to listen to hold our hearts is there beating with so much more than we.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.