Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Your mom and me, we've seen this life with eyes that only see in black and white. Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under Support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Sam Young [00:01:03] Tune me out if you must

John Dehlin [00:01:09] I

Sam Young [00:01:09] know you've heard enough

John Dehlin [00:01:14] But I sing this song Just because I hope you'll be wiser than your daddy was I hope you'll be wiser hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is August 30, 2018 and we are amidst a very important time Again, I'm John Dehlin, your host, and we are here today to interview Sam Young. Many of you will know that we've been following Sam Young for quite some time. Not only is he a dear friend of mine, we go back many, many years. His dad and my dad were business partners back in the 80s in Houston, Texas. But recently Sam Young has been trying to fight as a former Mormon bishop for improvements within the LDS Church. And Sam Young started an organization called Protect LDS Children. He's been fighting over the past year to help the Mormon Church improve its practices in terms of interviews for children, stopping sexually explicit interviews and trying to prevent more sexual abuse of children within the LDS Church. And now after leading a march in Salt Lake City, after getting tens of thousands of people to sign petitions, after personally protesting and abstaining or voting opposed in ward and state conferences and even general Conference, Sam concluded these efforts with the 23 day fast in Salt Lake City to protect LDS children. That's two days longer than Gandhi fasted now on August 28th. I found about this on August 29th, but on August 28th there's a letter that is dated informing Sam Young that he a disciplinary council to excommunicate him will be convened Sunday, September 9th at 6:00pm at the Lexington Building in I don't know, is that Sugar Land, Texas?

Sam Young [00:03:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] And so we have brought Sam Young back because we want to interview him and hear from him and find out how he's doing and get the update and figure out what we can do to support Sam and to help promote his Cause so, without any further ado, Sam Young, welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast.

Sam Young [00:04:01] John, it's always a pleasure to talk with you, my dear friend. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] And I can't say that I'm happy about this news.

Sam Young [00:04:12] Well, I'm certainly not happy about it. I'm not surprised. I've known that this was a possibility all the way along. I was threatened with it last January and they finally decided to pull the trigger on it. So I'm not happy about it. And even though I've had plenty of time to get used to it, frankly, when I got, I got a text message yesterday that the state Executive secretary, who's a friend of mine, wanted to stop by. Now I knew why he wanted to stop by. He did not want to tell me. But when I was done with that exchange with going back and setting the time, I tell you, my stomach was turning, even though I've had plenty of time to get used to it. So I'm not sure how I feel when it actually happens, what emotions will arise.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] Yeah, well, this is near and dear to my heart because as people know, I was also excommunicated. And so I love you personally. I believe in your cause. And we need to support people who are going through disciplinary councils because they're barbaric and medieval and violent. And we all need to give Sam our support. So, Sam, let's go back a little bit. There are going to be people maybe who are listening now who don't know the story. So let's give the one minute story of this movement up until the fast. And then I want to ask you a couple questions about the fast. But can you just give our listeners a quick update as to what you've been doing for those who have been on Mars during the past year?

Sam Young Discovers His Daughter Was Questioned

Sam Young [00:05:51] Last summer 2017, I found out that my daughter, when she was 12 years old was asked sexually explicit question behind the closed doors of a bishop. It introduced her to pornography, introduced her to masturbation. I had no idea this happened until 10 years after she left the Young Women's program. I asked if it had happened before or after that entire time she was in. Now that got me very upset to hear this was done to my child. And then I found out it happened to three more of my children. So four out of my six children were asked sexually explicit questions behind a closed door. I knew everybody in the world knows that's wrong, dead wrong, except members of our church. I believe that the apostles even know that it's dead wrong. So I launched a crusade to get this changed in our church. I was very naive. I thought it would be an easy change to make. It's common sense for most everybody. But I didn't realize how dug in the church can be to things that need to be changed, that everybody else has changed. So that launched me on this path. I subsequently found out that this has happened to countless people. It's a very, very common practice in our church to ask sexually explicit questions, and it's mandated you take kids behind closed doors. So I found out I've collected thousands of stories of people, adults who were harmed while they were kids and anywhere from suicide to physical sexual abuse and then to psychological sexual abuse. And they're just all kinds of horrid consequences that have come out of these interviews.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] Yeah. We have well over 250 people joining us. This is one of the largest live streams we've ever had, so I want to welcome all our listeners on Facebook Live. The messages of love and support are streaming in, Sam. I'll read some of them as I can. Listeners who are joining us through the live stream, please post questions for Sam in the feed and we'll ask them as we can. So, Sam, you were a former bishop of the Mormon Church, which is important, and you're still an active member who still attends. I think that's a really important thing to mention.

Sam Young [00:08:25] Yeah, but John, I want to correct you on that. I'm not a former bishop. I am a bishop.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] That's right.

Sam Young [00:08:30] In our church, when you're a bishop, once you're a bishop, you're always a bishop. I just don't have a congregation today, but I have that. Being an ordained or being a bishop the rest of your life is something that I never really paid attention. And frankly, I think almost all bishops in the church don't give it a second thought. Now I realize I am an ordained bishop. I can speak as an ordained bishop, not a former bishop, not an ex bishop, but as a bishop in the Mormon Church. And I have been speaking out with my. As a person who has this calling behind his name, I love it.

John Dehlin [00:09:16] I want to encourage all our listeners to please post this live stream on their Facebook page, on their profile so that you can have as many family and friends here about what's happening. So those of you who are comfortable, please share this feed now on your timelines. I'd love to get over 300 or 400 people or more paying attention. Okay, Sam, so you did a fast for 23 days, which is two days longer than Gandhi. We interviewed you maybe at the Beginning of your fast and maybe a week or so into it. I don't know the details, but tell us at the end, how many, how many pounds you lost in that fast?

The Hunger Strike and Physical Toll

Sam Young [00:09:56] Well, I did a month preparation beforehand. I lost 14 pounds during the month long preparation. I lost another 21 pounds during the fast. So a total of 35 pounds.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] And you also tried to get Mormon church leaders to engage with you. You invited apostles and First Presidency members to come have conversations with you. You even tried to connect with

Sam Young [00:10:24] the

John Dehlin [00:10:24] church before it started. What was your success at getting church leaders to engage with you during that hunger strike?

Sam Young [00:10:32] Well, zero success. I actually was not inviting them to come engage with me. I was inviting them to come meet with survivors, victims, parents, or anybody that's concerned about this policy. They have created tens of thousands. No, countless victims. They have created. And according to the gospel of Jesus Christ, we should be ministering to those that are wounded on the side of the road, especially when we're the ones that beat them up and threw them in a ditch and left them there for decades. So that's who I was inviting them to engage with.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] And what was your success?

Sam Young [00:11:20] Well, we went. So I fasted for 23 days. The first 15 days we held this temple side chat with an apostle, or hopefully with an apostle. So each day we invited a different apostle. Every apostle failed to show up. So we got no response to ministering to those that Christ commanded us to minister. Actually, he didn't command us. He gave us these beautiful parables. He taught us what we should be doing.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] And they didn't show up.

Sam Young [00:11:55] They didn't show up.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] Okay, so you go back home. What was it like to start eating again after fasting for 23 days and losing 34 pounds? What was it?

Sam Young [00:12:07] 35 pounds?

John Dehlin [00:12:08] 35 pounds. What was that like? You couldn't just pig into a golden crowd buffet, right?

Sam Young [00:12:15] No. So that this is all planned, early July, what I should. Should do. So you're supposed to ease back into eating, which I did. I spent the first two days I was very careful about what I ate, and I was actually careful all the way through until a few days ago. I'm still a little bit careful, but no, initially it was fruit juices, fruits and vegetables, actually, fruits and vegetables that were in the form of baby food. I think I was being maybe more careful than I needed to, but I just wanted to make sure I did not have problems coming out of the fast.

John Dehlin [00:12:57] But you're healthy and doing okay?

Sam Young [00:13:00] Yeah, doing super.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] Okay. So I actually had, I had a dear friend ask me just a week ago if I thought you were going to be excommunicated and I put the odds at least 50% that they were going to leave you alone, the church was going to leave you alone. Because just like with Tyler Glenn and Dan Reynolds, even though they have definitely done more than what has gotten many people excommunicated in the past. Same with Lindsay Hansen Park. It seems like the church has backed off on excommunications over the past year or two after seeing with Kate Kelly and myself and Jeremy Runnels and others that so often these excommunications only make the voices stronger, the people they excommunicate and helps make them look more barbaric, causes a ton of people to resign from the church. I actually, I rarely, you know, I'm going to kind of quote myself, but I'm going to read a little Facebook post that I made this morning because it sums up how I feel. I wrote a little letter to the church and this is what I wrote. I wrote and I'm pulling it up on Facebook. Dear LDS Church, it is completely stupid for you to hold the disciplinary council on Sam Young for his work with Protect LDS Children. The result will be one, you will cause many more members to leave and or resign from the church, especially millennials and progressives, which will make your culture even more toxic and your church smaller and weaker than it already is. Two, you will make Sam even more popular and celebrated than he already is. And then I put insert Obi Wan Kenobi reference here, which is the reference to if you strike me down, you only make me stronger. I wrote, trust me, I know about these things. Mormon stories listenership has increased significantly since my excommunication and my support. And they're gonna just make you more loved, more celebrated, and they're gonna give you more support for Protect LDS Children. Number three, you will strengthen a culture that already harbors and protects abusers, which will lead to even more sexual abuse. And of women and children, that should probably be one, not three. And four, you will draw more attention to your backwardness and make you look even more like a bigoted, out of touch, patriarchal organization in the eyes of the public. You will lose ground on literally all fronts. Cancel the disciplinary council immediately. You're welcome. Love, John Dehlin. So that reflects my prediction that they were probably most likely to leave you alone. But I guess the absurdity, the ridiculousness of the Mormon Church exceeds even our already low expectations. So, Sam, talk to us about whether you thought this was going to be an outcome after your fast. And then take us through every step of what you've heard so far. And if you're willing to share backstory of conversations with bishops and stake presidents, bishopric members, so that we understand everything that's led up to this, so that we just have the full history, so that we can document how the Church deals with people trying to improve it from the outside or from the inside.

Letter to the Church and Excommunication Notice

Sam Young [00:16:25] Okay, so you had, what are the

John Dehlin [00:16:26] origins of this disciplinary council? And then how did you first hear about it?

Sam Young [00:16:30] Okay, so the first time I was threatened with a disciplinary council was last January, January 28th. I've been having a hard time getting a hold of the stake president as far as meeting with me. Had been months that we. I kept getting put off. So I finally wrote a letter and posted on my blog, as I do almost every letter I write, and basically said, the Church is unchristlike. If you don't care about what's happening to our children, you're unchristlike. I got a call the next day to set up a meeting when I said that he was unchristlike. I've since taken that letter down from my website, but that's what generated the appointment for me, because I wanted to discuss the problems with these interviews and present him with the Sacred Stories of Sacred Children, the book of all these testimonials of horrid things that we've done to our children. Anyway, at that point in time, he threatened me with excommunication, said that I am apostate. That I am an apostate because I'm speaking out against the Church and its leaders. Now, that's one of the things they put in the letter that I'm charged with, is repeatedly speaking against the Church and its leaders. And I told them, look, I'm not speaking against the church as leaders. I'm speaking against a policy. Not doctrine, not theology, not the leaders, not the Church. Just a crappy, stupid, irresponsible policy that everybody else has gotten rid of. So he said that if I keep speaking out openly, they'll have to protect the good name of the church. My lieutenant said, protect the good name of the church. First of all, I'm really not concerned about that the good name of the church will be protected by being good. I'm concerned about the children. But actually, the good name of the church is being trashed by what we are doing to our children, not me. If you want to protect the good name of the church, then let's make it good with regards to how we treat Our kids. There was no resolution on that. He stuck to his guns and I kind of stuck to mine, so. But nothing was mentioned from then until I received this letter. Now, I did meet with him two or three times, probably twice between that day and the week before I came up to do this action. So I've been pretty darn transparent in everything that I've done, notifying everybody what I'm going to be doing. I sent a letter to him telling him that I was going up Salt Lake, I was going to be doing a major action. He called me in and said, sam, I've received revelation that I should share this with you, this message with you. Walk away. Walk away. Turn it off. Just walk away. And he meant walk away from the cause of protecting children. He then gave me a blessing, and I thought that was a really sweet gesture for him to give me a blessing. He and the bishop in his stake president's office, and he blessed me that I would make the right decision. I think I made the right decision to go forward with the hunger strike. So that was the last thing that we met about a month. A little over a month ago. And then I received today's letter.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] So. And I had the good fortune of attending your soccer meeting with you. And it just so happened that your stake president and bishop were both there. So I was able to meet them. And so it's kind of fun that I know these guys and they seem like kind of nice guys. And I talked to Jason Moore, my buddy, Jason Moore, and he told me the stake president is this car salesman guy, successful used car salesman. It was so funny that he started out his testimony or his talk by saying, today you'll be hearing from a lawyer and a used car salesman. But that's who's presiding over your excommunication as a used car salesman, right?

Sam Young [00:21:03] Well, he sells new cars, too. He's a general manager for a dealership here in town.

John Dehlin [00:21:11] But he's kind of loved, right? He's. He's not.

Sam Young [00:21:14] They're good guys. Yes, they're good guys. Have been friends for a long time.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] Yeah. Okay. So how did it feel when you got the letter? What was it like? Like, personal feelings of Sam Young. This is. You've been a bishop in the stake or in an adjoining stake? You've been a member a long time. You've been on, I think, the stake high council of your current ward. How did it feel to have friends give you this letter?

Receiving the Disciplinary Council Summons

Sam Young [00:21:40] Well, so my stomach turned when I first realized what they were coming over to give me. When they got here, my stomach was no longer turning. I felt sorry for these two. And again, they're friends and have been for a long time. They were given a task that can't be very pleasant to go over to deliver this letter of a church court to a friend of theirs that they, they know that it's excommunication. It's obviously been discussed in the state presidency. So they know that's what this means. So I felt sorry for them a little bit. But I was also angry and disappointed, John. So disappointed in that. This is the response of the church to somebody standing up and speaking out for truth and for following Jesus Christ's mandate that you harm these kids, you deserve a millstone of being drowned in the sea. That's a pretty serious charge that Jesus Christ gives. So somebody stands up for the children. The response of our church is shut your mouth, sit down, and if you don't, which I didn't, we're excommunicating your butt out of the church. It's just so disappointing. What kind of a church is this? In fact, I told them and I was a little angry when they were here, nodded them, I tried to read, said, I'm not angry at you guys. I'm just angry at our church that we recently had a name change, that we're no longer supposed to be called Mormons. Frankly, it looks to me like we should take the name Jesus Christ out of it entirely because we are not following Jesus Christ when you excommunicate somebody. We're speaking up to protect our children. So I had a mixture of anger and supreme disappointment.

John Dehlin [00:23:38] What about personally as a member of a church that you've loved and served for so many years? So not frustrated at the church's stupidity, but just as someone, you know, as a member of a church that you've loved and served and have respected in the past. What was that like for you personally?

Sam Young [00:23:57] That's a super, super disappointment and also a feeling of great betrayal. John, Everybody has seen how I've gone about this campaign. It's not been, let me write a post here and then three months later complain about it, and then the next day complain about it. It has been pushing with all my heart, might, mind and strength to make something happen. That is the same thing I did in all my callings in the church. When they gave me a calling, I am focused on that thing. I am super dedicated to the responsibility that I'm given. So, yeah, there's a great feeling of such disappointment for having put all this effort into A church that cares nothing about the damage they have done to our kids.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] Let me go ahead and read the letter now. Do you have a full version of the letter available somewhere? Oh, here it is. I'm gonna. Can I read it and then you can respond to it?

Sam Young [00:25:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] Okay. Dear Sam. Okay. It's dated August 28, 2018. It's on LDS Church letterhood letterhead. It's titled Houston, Texas South Stake, and here's what it says. Dear Sam. Oh, by the way, who are the two friends that delivered it again? I know you told us, but tell us again.

Sam Young [00:25:28] Well, not their name.

John Dehlin [00:25:31] With their position. Not their name.

Sam Young [00:25:33] Yeah, one is the stake executive secretary. The other is the stake clerk.

John Dehlin [00:25:40] Okay. Dear Sam, this letter is a formal notice that the Stake presidency will convene a formal disciplinary council in your behalf, the result of which includes the possibility of excommunication, disfellowship, formal probation, or no action. The reason for this council is that you are reported to have acted repeatedly in clear, open and deliberate public opposition to the church or its leaders. You have, among other things, one, encouraged others to vote opposed to church leaders, and two, organized more than one public action that expressed opposition to the church or its leaders. All right, let's stop there. What responses do you have? I'm going to read the whole thing, but I'm going to have you comment as we go. What do you have to respond to that first part of the letter?

Sam Young [00:26:29] Well, I'm opposing a policy. They're saying by opposing a policy, you have opposed the church and its church leaders. I disagree with that. I don't agree with that. I'm supporting the church and supporting the church leaders. By seeing something that is so dreadfully wrong and totally ignoring it. Well, that's not supporting the church. That's not supporting the church leaders. So you. When I was partners with your dad, I can remember a day that I can't remember her name, but she was one of our salespeople. And she walked out of the restroom, and she had a piece of toilet paper that was streaming behind her from underneath her dress. So I guess I'm not sure how that exactly happened, but it just was comical that she had done something where you got this toilet paper streaming behind her. So I could have ignored that, but rather than ignore it, I went up and told her about this so that she didn't look like an idiot. You know what? I was a friend to her when I did that. I would not be a friend of the church if I was to look at. Look at all the harm we're doing, I'm just going to turn my head and ignore it. That's not what Jesus Christ would expect. My integrity can't allow that. And if someone sees a problem in the church and does nothing about it, they're not supporting the church. They don't love the church. They're not supporting the leaders. They don't love the leaders. So I am not opposing the leaders or the church. I oppose a policy. But they. So that first paragraph and then item number two, they've conflated policy with church and its leaders.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] Yeah, yeah, I don't. I totally agree with you. And one of the most heinous things I've seen about the church is that, you know, a lot of people like to make the claim the church doesn't change. I violently disagree. Not violently, but I vehemently disagree. If the church does anything, it changes. But what's so sickening about it is that it pretends to get divine revelation from the church, but then it only responds out of direct public pressure from courageous dissidents who speak out publicly against the church by getting lots of priorities and membership support and former membership support to agitate for change, then what the church does is it punishes the people that were the instigators of change and then later makes the change, claiming that it was divine authority. And it's a very. Number one, it's deceptive, but number two, it's kind of uncool and ungrateful to always punish the people who are actually the main causes for positive change. So, Kate Kelly, I don't think we can argue that ordained women in Kate Kelly improved, you know, at least in a small degree, the situation for women in the church. I think that the work that people like Jeremy Runnels and I and others have done to help the essays come about and to help increase the church's honesty and transparency with history. I don't think anyone can argue that that's been a positive thing for the church and its transpar. And yet so many of the people that instigate get punished. And of course, the September 6th, Maxine Hanks, she's joining us now. So many of the people that have helped move the needle in the church, the church ends up not thanking but punishing and then claiming that they made the change through divine revelation. So I agree that you are a friend to the church. And I think it's tragic and impolite and not classy class less for the church to always punish the people who care so much about it. That they try to actually instigate change and are successful in instigating change. Sam, I'm going to say this. I've been watching this stuff for a long time. I have never seen an activist project like yours make so much explicit direct change in the church in such a short amount of time. You actually achieved the church literally changing its policy in real time parallel to your efforts. And of course they've never given you any positive acknowledgement for your work and in fact are now choosing to punish you. Any responses to that?

Sam Young [00:31:30] Well, I don't need the positive acknowledgement. I get more positive acknowledgement than I should from all the people that are supporting this, all the people that have been helped from all the victims. I just got a ton of positive feedback. I don't need one ounce of recognition. What I'm looking for is protect our damn kids church. That's what I want to have happen. And if they were to say, Sam, just admit that we were going to do this anyway and we'll do it, say good, you're going to do it anyway. In fact, I've already said that, that they already have this in the works. We just, it's time for it to happen. So no, I don't need the credit.

John Dehlin [00:32:16] Of course you don't need the credit. But it's classy for an organization to give credit or at least not punish the people who are trying to help it. And I think you are literally helping the church and the church is going to be better because of your efforts, which makes it all more heinous and egregious that you're being excommunicated. Okay, really quick. We are up to 590 live listeners on Facebook Live. I don't think we've ever gone above. We're now at 600. We are now at 600 people on the Facebook Live stream. I want to encourage everybody who's listening right now to share this event on their public Facebook page and encourage everyone to watch it. I want to see if we can get above a thousand. I don't think there will ever have been a Mormon related Facebook livestream. To break a thousand. We're at 600 and if you guys will all share this right now, I know we can break a thousand. So everybody right now please go to the little share link. Share this in groups you're a member of. Share this on your public page. Encourage people to tune in. Let's break a thousand. Okay, back to the letter. Sam, what about its concern that you're encouraging people to vote opposed to Church leaders. That sounds like you're asking people to violate their temple covenant, to never speak ill of the Lord's anointed. What would you say about that?

Sam Young [00:33:32] What an idiotic thing that is. If I'm violating my covenant does not speak ill. I'm not speaking ill of the church leaders. And I'm going to be interested to see what evidence they have that I've encouraged people to vote opposed. I've been pretty careful to not encourage people to. Vote opposed if they're not opposed. I've encouraged people. We have a beautiful law of the law of common consent. It is mentioned several times in the founding documents of our church in the doctrine of covenants, talking about violating temple covenants. I feel like I would be violating my temple covenant if I didn't vote opposed. When I feel like I should vote opposed because I made a covenant that the first covenant I made was that I would obey the law of God. Well, the law of common consent is a law of God. In fact, it was. It's in his own words in two sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. Most of the standards we have in the church, you can't find Jesus Christ pronouncing the words. In fact, many of the standards, you can't even find them in the scriptures. But here we have the law of common consent. So yes, I've explained that many times to people. And if you're opposed, rather than just leaving the church, you know, we have this beautiful commandment from Jesus Christ to live the law of common consent. So what I'd say there. And incidentally, to vote. So we can't vote opposed. I can't talk to people about how they're gonna vote. What is the sense of even voting if you've got to remain silent and just sit there and see, Well, I wonder how other people are going to vote. You can't even talk about it. That's idiotic. You can't talk about voting or voting opposed. We should have the free will without consequences to obey Jesus Christ. Law of common consent.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] What if the church says it's okay to vote opposed sort of as a matter of conscience for you, but to rally and encourage others to vote opposed takes it from a personal act of conscience to a social activist, kind of like Berkeley style, 70s sit in where you're trying to turn the church into like a political progressive, liberal, hippie, radical kind of movement. And that's not what the church is. That's not how the church operates. The let people vote opposed by their own, but don't Try and rally and marshal people to vote opposed.

Sam Young [00:36:41] It says all things must be done by common consent. It doesn't say all things must be done by common consent. And shut up and don't talk to anybody about it. No, common consent. We're talking about. He uses the term vote. If we're voting and we are voting and the word vote is used many times in the Doctrine of and Covenants, then we should have a right to talk about our vote. This is a silencing mechanism that should have never been a part of our church. There is nothing that says anywhere in our scriptures that you don't talk to anybody about how you're going to vote or you don't encourage them to say, you know what, if you're opposed to live the law of common consent as opposed to go out there and saying, you know what, let's all vote opposed. No, mine was, if you're opposed, you can vote opposed. Frankly, there are many people that would not have left the church if our church were obeying Jesus Christ commandment of common consent. It gives people a voice. Many people leave the church because they have no voice in the church. But Jesus Christ gave us the vote or gave us the voice.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] What if the church. What if the church were to say to you, sam, you are not the prophet. The prophet is the prophet. Jesus Christ is at the head. We receive our revelation from the Lord. We don't. It is not the way of the church to have members agitating for change. And for us, as God's chosen leaders in connection with God, to be taking instruction from a printer cartridge salesman in Houston. We get our instructions from God. And it's not the member's job to be agitating for change. It's God's job to tell us what changes we need to make.

Sam Young [00:38:44] Okay, good. If it's your job to follow what Jesus Christ has told you, follow what Jesus Christ told you, which is put everything up for common consent. A prophet of the church in 1906 or something like that was called to testify before Congress, Joseph F. Smith. And he stated under oath, so I hope he wasn't lying. Under oath, he stated that a revelation is not binding on the church until. Until it's been presented for a vote of common consent and been approved by a simple majority. So if the prophets are telling me, sam, we don't take orders from you, you're right, you don't. You should take them from Jesus Christ. I'm taking my orders from Jesus Christ. You should, too. Here it is right here in black and white. We should be doing everything by common consent. And now when you throw into what we're talking about, we're harming our children, how in the world is that not part of common consent? That I'm not giving any consent for them to take my child behind a closed door and ask her if she masturbates and all the other dirty, filthy questions that they're allowed to ask? No, I've withdrawn my consent. Unfortunately, my kids are grown, are grown now. But I wish I'd taken this action, but I didn't know what's happening. So I would say, yeah, well, good. Take your orders from Jesus Christ. And I happen to know what a number of those orders are right here. Put stuff up for my vote and everybody else's vote.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] What if they were to say, sam, you must not believe that we're inspired by God. You must not believe we're prophetseers and revelators because if you did, you would trust that we are doing God's will and that the current policies are God's will. In other words, Sam, you must not believe they're prophetseers and revelators if you don't believe that their current policies and practices aren't of God.

Church Leadership, Fallibility, and LGBT Concerns

Sam Young [00:40:50] Okay, they have admitted that prophets and apostles have made egregious mistakes. So I'm not going to stand here and listen to them say we don't make any mistakes. Every policy we put out is directly from God. No, it's not. They have condemned almost every prophet, not almost every prophet. The majority of the prophets and apostles, they have condemned what the vast majority taught about race and the priesthood. They've condemned our past racism, our past teachings, our past doctrine, our past policies. They've condemned that. Well, they've kind of thrown those apostles under the bus. But I appreciate that they've been honest with regards to how the race and the priesthood came about. It was men making stupid racist decisions. That was not God's will. Once I found that out that I had been deceived for the vast majority of my life, and now many of the things that I believed and was taught by prophets and apostles is false and condemned. Not just now. They made a mistake. No, we condemn it. That's what they said. They condemned it. Well, at this point, that drives me right back into common consent. How do I know if they're speaking as a man or not? Frankly, I don't know if they're speaking as a man. But Jesus Christ put into effect a check and balance. He said put it up for both. We're taught in the doctrine or in the Book of Mormon that the majority seldom picks what is wrong. The minority is the one that picks that. Well, we've got a minority of 15 men that are dictating these policies without putting it through the scrutiny of common consent. So do I believe they're prophets, seers and revelators? I do. And I know they're men. Not believe I know they're men. And Jesus Christ said, don't put your faith in the arm of flesh. I put my faith in the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. And one of those important, gorgeous, wonderful laws of Jesus Christ's commandments is common consent. If they're prophets, seers and revelators, I'm willing to say that act like that. Prophets, seers and revelators follow Jesus Christ.

John Dehlin [00:43:26] So the second charge is organizing public action that expresses opposition to the church or its leaders. That's clearly what got Kate Kelly and ordained women in trouble. What about that? That you shouldn't. You know, it's one thing to talk to your bishop, your stake president to write the prophet, it's even another thing to vote opposed. But doing public actions that shame the church, that hurt the church's reputation, that members should not be engaging in public activism that expresses opposition to the church or its leaders.

Sam Young [00:44:04] Okay, I would say what the hell are they constantly talking about protecting the church for that is not important to Jesus Christ has never been important to Jesus Christ. Point me one place Jesus Christ ever said protect the church. No, it was protect the children. That's where we should be focused is protecting our own kids like every other church and youth serving organization in the country has already been done. So you're asking me why would so doing a public action. So what do you do to save children? We're talking about children's lives here. We're talking about children being scarred for decades, if not their entire Life. There are 70 year olds that have reached out now that are just starting the healing process. They've lived with deep horrid wounds from childhood up until their 70s. What is the proper thing to protect them? There's no proper, I look at it, there's no proper way except to go after protecting our children. Somebody gave me this analogy. If you saw Bucky baby stroller with a baby in it rolling down a busy rolling down the street, do you sit there and say let's call a committee and figure out what we're going to do about. No, you run out into the street and you save that baby immediately. You don't give it a second thought we have children that are committing suicide, that are attempting suicide, that are having suicidal thoughts, that are being abused by bishops, sexually abused by bishops. So if somebody is going to say, you've got all this red tape to save these children, I'm going to look at you. No, Jesus Christ said you go through the red tape and forget these children and don't go out to see. You're going to be. He is going to check you into the sea. Okay? You're a goner as far as he is concerned. So anyway, so those are some. I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to respond to these things, John, but there are some immediate thoughts. I've got a whole week to think about this, listeners.

John Dehlin [00:46:30] We're up to 710 people on our livestream. That is amazing. We've doubled our highest number ever or more. If we can get 300 more, we'll break a thousand. So I'm just going to keep encouraging our listeners to share this on Facebook, on social media, on Twitter, on Reddit, wherever they can share it. Let's break a thousand. We've only got 280 more people to go to break a thousand. Sam, we already know about the suicides that come from trying to be LGBT in the Mormon Church. Is it, you know, is it fair to say in your experience that suicides also come from either the sexual abuse that people experience at the hands of leaders and at the hands of perpetrators that are protected by leaders? That's one. And is it fair to say that suicides and depression can also come from just the shaming, grooming, perverted questions that bishops and stake presidents and mission presidents often ask church members and children and 12 year olds and 8 year olds and 7 year olds and missionaries in the church.

Sam Young [00:47:44] Is it fair to say that, well,

John Dehlin [00:47:47] this is a matter of life and death for children, for adults, for youth, as is the LGBT suicide problem.

Sam Young [00:47:57] There's a saying that goes like this. Shame kills. Shame kills. We're shaming our children. Now, I have thousands of testimonials of that very issue that the shame coming out of the either sexual abuse or the psychological sexual abuse that we're putting onto our children behind closed doors. I have thousands of testimonials of shame causing suicidal ideation, suicide attempts and actual suicide completion. So I've got thousands of testimonials. But you know what, John? I'm not an expert on this. I kind of feel like I'm an expert, but I've never been trained in this. The Mormon Mental Health association just Put out a document calling for changes to the very thing Protect LDS Children has been calling for for a long time. They are experts and they've explained the harm, the great harm that comes out of what we're doing. So the experts will testify to it, the professional community, the therapist community, the scientific community and the, and the real community of the actual people that we harmed. All of it is a gigantic witness that what we're doing. Yes, puts our children at risk of death,

John Dehlin [00:49:23] which makes it very serious. Okay, I'll continue with the letter. And we've posted a link to the letter in the feed, so check it out. We will convene the council at 6pm on Sunday, September 9 at the Lexington Building in the Stake offices. If you are not able to attend at this date and time, please let me know as soon as practicable. So right now, Sam, do you plan on attending September 9th at the Lexington Building in the Stake Offices?

Sam Young [00:49:54] I do.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] Okay, really quickly, do you, do you want support? Is there a way that people can. You know, I was so touched that at my disciplinary council, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people showed up at the building. They did a candlelight vigil. It was deeply moving to see the parking lot of that Stake center full with supporters and media. How would you feel? Would you like people to show up if they can and support you?

Sam Young [00:50:29] I think that would be great. And I'm not going to organize anything except I think I want to do a live video, maybe an hour, hour and a half before it begins, similar to what we did at the temple. Side chats. Maybe this would be a chapel side chat,

John Dehlin [00:50:49] but

Sam Young [00:50:51] people have already started talking about putting something together, so I would definitely welcome that.

Community Vigils and Public Support

John Dehlin [00:50:58] Okay, so this is John Dehlin calling on all our listeners to consider buying a plane ticket flying to Houston next weekend to show up on Sunday, September 9th at 6:00pm to show their in person physical support for Sam. I'm gonna go home now and talk to Margi and see if it's a good time for my family to have me be gone. But I would love to be there and I would love to see as many of you who are listening join us as well. And as soon as we, as soon as we find out who's organizing a vigil, then we'll, we'll be sharing that information. So everyone please look into plane flights now while they're still relatively cheaper, and look for information on that vigil. But it's the Lexington Building. We need an address for that building. Can you share an address of that building? At some point. Not now, but at some point.

Sam Young [00:51:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:53] Okay. All right. So you are invited to attend this disciplinary council to give your response to the above. Although we welcome your attendance, it is not required. You may also submit your response in writing. Whether you attend is, of course, your choice. Disciplinary councils are sacred, confidential, ecclesiastical proceedings. If you do choose to attend, your attendance and participation are conditioned upon your agreement to respect the process and abide by the standards governing the proceeding, including the following conditions. Number one, everyone who attends the council, including you and me, will sign an acknowledgment that the council will be conducted privately and confidentially and will not be recorded in any form. Anyone unwilling to do so will not be allowed to be present at the council. If you decline, you will not be allowed to be present. And any statement on your behalf to the council will have to be submit. Have to the. Submitted in writing. So there's a typo. Will have to be submitted in writing. Now, Sam, I. I only have one question about that. What do you think about them saying you can't record your own disciplinary counsel? I can see, you know, them wanting to protect you and your privacy, so, you know, not allowing any recording that you don't consent to have. What do you think about them forbidding a recording of something that you would want recorded for your own safety and protection? It sounds like an attempt to avoid accountability on the church's part, to avoid a PR disaster and sort of like a secret combination where they want to be able to do what they do in private but not be held accountable. What do you think about that?

Sam Young [00:53:36] They call it sacred and I'll just say crap. They want it to be secret. I guess they want to avoid. I don't know what they want to avoid, but it's just. I think it is so foolish that this is what our church is organized around is secrecy, non transparency. But frankly, it's not a huge issue for me. I'm in the right here. They're in the wrong. I've got history on my side. I've got morality on my side. So I'm. I'm okay with that.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] McKenna Denson is joining us. Thanks for joining us, McKenna. And she is reminding us that people can have vigils in their local cities. So I want to encourage people who can't go to Houston to organize whatever city you're in. Salt Lake, you know, Logan, Provo. I don't care where you are. Dallas, dc, London, Bangalore, India. I don't care. I want to welcome everyone to use their local Facebook communities on Mormon spectrum. So go to mormonspectrum.org map find the map with the community near you. Use those local communities to host local public vigils of support for Sam where everybody shows up, they bring their Facebook cameras and they live stream any get together where one or two are together. It is sacred. It is of Christ or God. Show your support for SAM in whatever city you live. If you can't make it to Houston, but hopefully you guys can come to Houston as well. Okay, Number two. You may call witnesses at one at a time whose testimony is relevant to the issues I have set out above. However, any such witnesses must be identified to me in writing by name, ward and stake at least three days in advance. You must also provide to me in advance and in writing a description of the subject matter on which they will testify and the content of their testimony. Oh wow, that's new. So if, when you. I'm going to read this again. So when you submit the names of your witnesses. And I had five witnesses, by the way, my dad, who's an active believing member, my mom who's an active believing member, Bill Bradshaw, who's an active believing member, my brother Joel who is an active believing member, and then Mike Euband who is a member of my ward. And they all spoke and I had to provide their names ahead of time. This is new though. They must also provide in advance and in writing a description of the subject matter which they will testify. So they want to screen inappropriate subject matter and the content of their testimony. So now they've got a litmus test for the testimonies of the people. So whoever you call to testify on your behalf has to pre provide a testimony to be screened to see if their testimony is adequate to serve. I am dying at this to serve as a witness on your behalf. He goes on to say, in order to offer testimony, witnesses must be members of the church in good standing. I will abide by these same rules in regards to any witnesses that I may call. Okay, so do you have, what do you think about that litmus test for witnesses? And do you have any idea who you might call? I have an idea of who you might call, but I'd love to hear what you want to say about that.

Inside the Disciplinary Council Process

Sam Young [00:57:27] Well, it just is so silly what they're doing here. So we're going to come to the time constraint here shortly. But I look at the time constraint, I look at them putting these, you know, all these requirements on witnesses and you're thinking we're dealing with my eternal salvation. Or do they not even believe that stuff anymore. They're dealing with my eternal salvation, yet they put all these restrictions and requirements and vetting procedures for this council. It just to me is silly that they're going through all that. This should be a serious matter. Where you're looking at. We're not talking about this man's. We're not talking about a traffic ticket here. We're not talking about him not being able to pray for the next week or take the sacrament for the next month. We're talking about excommunication, which voids all of the saving ordinances for me and for my family with regards to me severing my relation, my eternal relationship with my wife and my children. If that is. If it's that serious, you would say, you know what, we are going to give the widest latitude possible so that we have as much information as possible to make this decision as opposed to doing all this. We want the subject matter, Just all the requirements they have.

John Dehlin [00:59:08] Yeah. Is their testimony legitimate enough to be witnesses?

Sam Young [00:59:14] So they're making judgments before we even get in there. With regards to what can and cannot be presented.

John Dehlin [00:59:21] Well, I can't help but nominate Bill and or Lynn Moore as witnesses on your behalf. Bishop Moore, he's a dear friend of mine. I'm sure he's loved and respected. He's from your ward. And I don't know if he's willing or able. He or Lynn, an amazing Lynn Moore, if either of them are willing or able. But you obviously had them come to the. To the conclusion of your fast. And I saw Bill's lovely speech and I love that family. So that's my little vote. I'm sure. I'm sure you didn't need that nomination.

Sam Young [00:59:57] Well, I'm not sure what I'm going to do on witnesses yet. It's kind of interesting that. So we got the letter. I come in and sit down. My wife's there and my oldest daughter, who's completely believing. Active member of the church, but she also completely supports this cause. So actually, we had two of my daughters there and my wife. And so my wife read the letter first. I hadn't read it yet. She reads the letter, then she gives it to my oldest daughter. She reads it, and my oldest daughter said, I want to be a witness. Yes. So that was kind of cool. Very cool. So I've got a couple volunteers for witnesses.

John Dehlin [01:00:41] Wait, you broke up for a second. Did you say your wife volunteered?

Sam Young [01:00:45] Yes. After reading the letter, she immediately said, I want to stand. I want to speak for you. I want to be a witness.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] So wife and daughter are your first two volunteers to witness on your behalf. Okay, well, we can't wait to hear who. Who ends up doing that. And I hope that you'll ask them to write out their comments and we'll share them. I want to interview after the disciplinary council, if you're willing to come back. And that's some information we'd love, maybe even bring them on to talk about their experiences, if they're willing. So keep that in mind, will ya?

Sam Young [01:01:24] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] Okay. And then three, Any proposed testimony from witnesses must relate to the specific issues described above. So in their testimony, they have to. It sounds like. Okay, what they're saying is they have to speak specifically to the point of you're encouraging others to vote opposed to church leaders and you're organizing public actions to express opposition. So they're basically also constraining their testimony to only address the charges that they've laid out. Any. Any quick response or should I just keep going?

Sam Young [01:02:02] Keep going. That's okay.

John Dehlin [01:02:03] I anticipate that it will take about 15 minutes for the evidence in support of the above issues to be presented to the council. I remember that they read charges against me. And then you will be afforded three times that. Wow. So they're expressing their generosity. You will be afforded three times the amount of time that they have to testify against you, which is 45 minutes to give your response, as mentioned above, if you choose not to attend the council. Okay, so one thing that I just thought was interesting was there's this perception that the High Council is divided six for and six against, and that you've got six people kind of making the case against you and six people advocating for you. If that happened, I never saw it because I was dismissed before any council person was ever able to speak. Have you been a part of the Stake High Council and is it normal for the witness or the accused person to be present while the 12 high councilmen argue for and against your position? Do you know?

Sam Young [01:03:12] Well, I've been on several High Council courts and they do divide up. At least we've always divided up. And so on one side of the table, you draw. It specifies how you do this in the doctrine covenants, how you divide it up and draw kind of draw lots. And so you have. One side of the table is to make. It's not to be. To advocate for the church or to advocate for the person that's on trial. It says something like they're supposed to make sure that the not needs, but the. Something like the needs of the church are protected or have been adequately represented, and that the maybe rights of the victim, the rights of the person on trial, that their rights have been represented properly. But the way it's always worked is that in the ones that I've been at the high council, they don't say anything, but they've got little pieces of paper. So while either the church is talking or I'm talking, they can write questions that they'll pass to the president that he then can ask, decide whether or not he's going to ask that question. But they never could say anything. But once the person was excused, then the stake president would ask, was the rights of Sam properly represented? And I've never seen a case where they always pick kind of a foreman in each group who is going to answer that question. And so he'll just say, yeah. The only thing I've seen people say, yes, his was represented the church, yes, his was represented. But I don't recall that happening while the person charged is sitting there in the room.

John Dehlin [01:05:37] Okay, really quickly, why attend Sam? Why? If let's just assume you don't maybe believe the brethren are always inspired, they're flawed, let's just even go further and say maybe you don't believe all the church's truth claims or that this is God's one true church on the earth, why not just resign? Why attend a disciplinary council? Either A, if you don't totally believe in all the things the church teaches, or B, if, you know, some would say don't attend because it submits to their authority and it sort of acknowledges their abuse and gives them too much power and credit. So why do you even want to attend your disciplinary council?

Sam Young [01:06:21] Okay, and after I answer that, then I want to come back to this last paragraph we read.

John Dehlin [01:06:26] Oh, we're going to come back for sure. I just didn't want to miss this question.

Sam Young [01:06:28] Yeah, okay, so why should I attend, John? I am concerned about the children. That's why I'm going to attend is to this. So this has already gotten press coverage. This is already going to widen the awareness of what we're doing to members. It'll widen the awareness. It'll widen the awareness to parents of what is going on. Now, if I was just to resign, well, that doesn't do much. But for me to go stand with my head high and speak out in the open, address these issues out in the open, I'm going to have an opportunity, talk to the high counselors, talk to the stake president about this very cause of protecting children, and it will also raise awareness and already has raised a bunch of awareness of people that are not in the church that had never been members. So they can see, by golly, I've been investigating the church. They hid this fact from me that my children will be taken behind closed doors and asked sexual questions. People need to know that before they make a decision about the church. So I could resign, but I don't see it as helping the children nearly as much as going and having the opportunity to address the media. And I'm not sure exactly how that's going to happen, but I know there's going to be continued media attention and to address the men sitting in that room.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] Yeah, it's kind of an Abinadi moment for those who know the Book of Mormon where Abinadi spoke out against the chief priests or judges or whatever it was. And who knows whether there'll be an Alma, like a high councilman who or presidency member that is touched by your testimony.

Sam Young [01:08:29] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:08:32] And was it Alma who was the judge that converted because of Abinadi's testimony? Alma, yeah, it's been a while since I've read the Book of Mormon, honestly.

Sam Young [01:08:41] Well, the.

John Dehlin [01:08:43] So

Sam Young [01:08:46] I love the example, the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. And his example has meant so much more to me in the last few years to keep drilling down, jeez, look what he did here, look what he did there. He did not wither from publicly speaking out against all that was wrong with his own church, with his own organization that he had founded. I don't know how many years. I'm not going to wither in front of these men. I'm going to speak out just as Jesus Christ did or just as Abinadi. What would have happened if Abinadi had chickened out and said, you know what, I don't want to be put on all those logs and have them lit up. No, he proudly spoke out. Or Samuel the Lamanite here, the supposed righteous people, where the church was. The church was there amongst the Nephites. They're trying to kill that guy. So I have all these examples that I've studied and been taught all these years. It just doesn't make any sense to throw all of those wonderful examples out the window and just say they're threatening me with excommunication. I'm not going to worry about the kids. I'm just going to resign. No, I'm not.

John Dehlin [01:10:11] Okay. I love it. That's how I felt too. And it turned out really well. All right, as mentioned above, if you choose not to Attend the council in person.

Sam Young [01:10:21] You skipped one of the most important paragraphs. No, I don't think I did the 15 minutes.

John Dehlin [01:10:27] Oh, I anticipate that it will take about. I think I read that, but I'll read it again.

Sam Young [01:10:31] But I didn't get to comment on that.

John Dehlin [01:10:33] Okay, I'll read it again so they know what you're saying. I anticipate that it will take about 15 minutes for the evidence in support of the above issues to be presented to the council. You will be afforded three times that or 45 minutes to give your response. So what do you want to say about that?

Sam Young [01:10:46] Okay, so you take a look at any court proceeding. If it's a serious crime that has been committed, that thing is going to go on a long period of time because the consequences are serious. 15 damn minutes for eternity. That is how serious they take. Their own doctrine is, oh, yeah, 15 minutes. Yeah, we're willing to dispatch you to hell. Actually, it's not hell. It's to outer darkness. That's where the apostates go as outer darkness. They'll take 15 minutes to determine that after a lifetime of service in the church. It's just I look at that and say, the church is not serious about this. They made the decision to excommunicate. 15 minutes. No, this is not a serious thing when that is the kind of time they're willing to give.

John Dehlin [01:11:48] So anyway, in all fairness, it's 15 minutes to read the charges and 45 minutes for you and your witnesses to respond.

Sam Young [01:11:54] So let's take 45 minutes. So 15 minutes.

John Dehlin [01:11:57] They're going to make an hour. That's an hour total.

Sam Young [01:11:59] They're going to. Yeah, an hour total for eternity. An hour total to determine outer darkness. I mean, just to me, that paragraph alone says, you know what? We're not serious about this. We don't believe in Jesus Christ. We want to get rid of your mouth, you've got to shut up. And we're going to shut you up in 15 minutes and 45 minutes. And by the way, Sam, it's shutting you up for eternity. You're going to hell. No, you're going to someplace worse than hell.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] So one of the issues that always comes up is, and I'm going to keep reading the letter, but I'm just going to ask this now. People always suspect that the church headquarters is involved, that it's not just a local matter. I'm not sure it even matters, but a lot of people like to make a big deal about the fact that this wasn't a local decision that this came from Orders from above. Do you have any comments on that sort of sort of talk?

Sam Young [01:12:58] All that would be pure speculation on my part. What I want to do is give my state president the benefit of the doubt that he is being directed from on from Salt Lake City. I will find it hard to believe that he has not been, but I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. He would not be doing this if he wasn't ordered by somebody about it. Right.

John Dehlin [01:13:22] Okay. I'll continue with the letter. I feel inclined to let you know that if it is your ultimate desire and if you wish to avoid this process entirely, you have the option to request that your name be removed from the records of the church. If you should make such a request, the council will be canceled and I will work with you to supply all of the information that you need to bring about that result. They always seem eager for you to resign over go through with the council. Any responses to that? You've already responded to why you're going to the council. Any other responses to their generous offer to let you go away quietly and resign?

Sam Young [01:14:02] So you had asked the question, do I believe the instructions came from Salt Lake City? That paragraph right there would be the indicator. This had to come from Salt Lake City because the stake president. I have mentioned it numerous times to the stake president and bishop that I don't want to lose my membership in the church. That's not my object. I do not want to lose the membership. However, the children, the safety of my grandchildren and all the other children in the church is more important to me than my membership. But I don't want to lose it. So this paragraph was written by somebody. Either my state president has lost his memory or he was mandated to include that in this as an additional attempt to silence me so I don't end up in this court.

John Dehlin [01:14:51] Why did they ask me this question? Why do you want to stay a member? If you don't have orthodox beliefs and if you really don't believe that the brethren are being led by God, why do you even want to stay a member?

Sam Young [01:15:05] Okay. Well, first of all, I don't believe they're being led by God. I don't know if they are. I mean, they make a lot of good decisions. So hopefully those come from God. But I am not there to know whether or not they're speaking for God. But the other part is, why would I want to stay in the church? This is my church. I've been in this church for decades. My kids, most of my kids are in the church. My wife is in the church. I have a community in the church. And when you say that I don't have orthodox beliefs, John, what the hell are the beliefs we should have? I believe in the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. I am working my rear end off to follow those teachings and example of Jesus Christ. That's not Orthodox. We. What the hell is orthodox? Maybe orthodox is not believing in Jesus Christ and not following him. But as far as I'm concerned, orthodox is. This is the church of Jesus Christ. I follow him, I follow his teachings, I follow his example. The best that this frail, 65 year old, imperfect guy can do.

John Dehlin [01:16:25] But I didn't hear an answer to why you want to remain a member.

Sam Young [01:16:29] Because this is my church, because my wife is in it, most of my kids are in it. I think it's a great community. I frankly think I've got a good bishop and a good stake president. I've got a lot of people in my ward that I love. I've got. I mean, that's why the church does give me an avenue to actively follow the teaching example of Jesus Christ. It provides plenty of opportunities to serve as an ordained bishop. I've now found another way that I can minister to people as an ordained bishop. And I'm taking advantage of those things. Being outside of the church. Well, I would lose that little piece. I'd lose something in common with my wife and my kids. Something in common with a lot of my friends. So anyway, there are several reasons that I want to stay in the church. It's my church.

John Dehlin [01:17:26] We have a listener that wrote this is dawn. She writes, September 9th is Russell M. Nelson's 94th birthday. Did you know that?

Sam Young [01:17:38] Well, you know what? Maybe we'll make this a birthday party. Let's have a birthday party in the parking lot. That is so fun.

John Dehlin [01:17:50] Yeah. That's interesting. Thank you, Don. Someone needs to confirm that, but that's pretty interesting. Okay, so. All right, let's continue with the letter. We're almost done. Sam, I know that. So he says, sam, I know that. Heavenly Father lives and loves you. We are his children. His work in glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. I know that his son Jesus Christ is central to God's plan to help us return to him and live with our family forever. The atonement of Jesus Christ is real. He is our Savior and redeemer. No matter the course you decide to take in this life and no matter the outcome of this disciplinary council, as his representative in the stake where you reside. I stand ready to help you and your family in any way that I can. I will be here to meet with you and to work with you and to help strengthen. There's a typo. Strengthen your relationship with Heavenly Father and his Son, Jesus Christ. My hope is that you will choose to change your course and to return to the covenant path. Sincerely, President, Houston, Texas South Stake. So he bears his testimony, says he's still willing to help you return to Christ's covenant path. What is your response to that?

Sam Young [01:19:14] Help me.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] Help you return to the covenant path

Sam Young [01:19:23] or left the covenant? So. I've never left the covenant path. The covenant that I made at baptism was to mourn with those that mourn, to stand as a witness of Jesus Christ. I'm standing as a witness. I am the only one that is standing up to mourn with those who mourn amongst the leadership of the church. So there were 39 bishops that stood up to mourn with those that mourn while I was in Salt Lake City to offer an apology, a heartfelt, detailed apology to those that we've harmed so much. Yeah, I'm here to mourn with those. I'm on the covenant path. What covenant path am I not on here? So that would be my first. I would invite them, come join me on the covenant path. I made a covenant that I would not countenance unholy and impure practices, talk about an unholy and impure practice, take a child behind closed doors and ask them gross, sexually filthy questions. That's an impure and unholy practice. Come get on the covenant path with me to live that covenant. So my hope would be that the entire council would get off their butts and get on the covenant path that they keep talking about. It's also interesting that he talks here about the family can be forever. They are about to cut me off from my family forever. And they're gonna produce 15 minutes worth of evidence that I'm worthy of being cut off from my family. What the hell is that? To put that thing in there. Yeah, they're gonna spend an hour to decide that. Yeah, we're gonna cut him off from his family forever. It's just weird to read through that. I mean, I think he had a good intention, but looking at it from my side of the table, You treat. We treat a rapist in our society better than they're trying to treat me. A rapist is going to go to jail for a period of time, for a number of years. They are cutting off my eternity rapist. They're going to give plenty of time for all the evidence to be presented for the accused to be totally represented in that thing. But what do I get here? 15 minutes of accusation from the stake president. They're going to listen to the stake president, period. And they give me 45 minutes. That's right. A crummy hour to decide. Yep. We are going to treat you worse than a rapist, Sam. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:15] I just have to add that Joseph Bishop, the sexual abuser of McKenna Denson, to all parties that are known, has yet to be excommunicated for raping McKenna Denson as a Misha president in the MTC in Provo. We know of thousands and thousands of actual pedophiles and sexual abusers in the church that the church never excommunicated and let them. Maybe they disfellowship them. You know, maybe they slapped their hand. Maybe. But we know that the church has literally excommunicated, literally not excommunicated, thousands of known rapists, child sexual abusers and spousal abusers. And yet you're going to be excommunicated when tens of thousands of rapists and sexual abusers have not been excommunicated.

Sam Young [01:23:13] Yep, Very interesting. So they didn't. So for rape, they didn't cut them off from their family for standing up to protect the children. Yeah, that merits outer darkness.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] Yeah. McKenna writes Joseph Bishop remains a Temple recommend holding member, but Sam Young gets excommunicated. Shout out to McKenna Denson and her courage. All right, so that. That's the end of the letter. Sam, a couple other questions. Let's see what can. Oh, one thing. Jayna Powers is offering to organize something in Salt Lake City area, so check out Jaina if you want to help. I would love to see. I'm wondering if the Wacca women are all with Kim Sandberg Turner. I'm a huge fan of her, Steve Holbrook and the Utah Valley Post Mormon community. There's so many communities in Salt Lake that could team up to organize a massive action or demonstration on Sunday in Salt Lake City. I want to call for everyone to participate in that. They can't go to Houston and everyone who wants to organize something local. Sam, we ought to put a page together of local protests of support for you or vigils for you. I hope you'll act as the central hub for that. How can people help if they want to support you? What can people do?

What Supporters Can Do and Call to Action

Sam Young [01:24:46] Well, you were talking about sharing this podcast, this live stream. I would like to encourage people to continue to put a spotlight on this problem to share all over the place that this blog about the excommunication. I think it's like 400 shares that have been made of that, which is amazing. That's the most that has ever happened. I've had a couple hundred shares on various things during the. When I was up in Salt Lake City for the fast. But talk to your neighbors, talk to your friends, talk to your family about what the church is doing here. Rather than stepping up to protect our children, they're stepping on to protect our children. So I just say share it all over the place as far and wide as you can talk.

John Dehlin [01:25:43] Wait, you're saying share anything about this interview, your letter, what else?

Sam Young [01:25:49] That's right. Anything that you can share that relates to this. Like, there are now three news articles that have been published. I haven't had a chance to put them on my Facebook page yet, but just look for ways to share and write and talk about this.

John Dehlin [01:26:09] Well, yeah, what new. What news coverage have you received so far? Do you know someone saying Newsweek has posted an article.

Sam Young [01:26:16] There's news. There's an article in Newsweek. There was an article on, let's see, channel 13 in Salt Lake City, channel 2 in Salt Lake City, that were both on their website. And somebody reported to me this morning that it was on channel 13's some TV coverage. TV report. I have not seen that yet.

John Dehlin [01:26:38] Okay. So I'm just. I just posted the Newsweek article. Let's see. It looks like the Salt Lake Tribune has. Has posted an article now. And I think all three, at least three of the local news stations have, you know, TV stations have posted articles.

Sam Young [01:27:05] Okay, super.

John Dehlin [01:27:07] So one thing people can do, and that's Scott Pierce. Thank you to Scott Pierce of the Salt Lake Tribune for publishing an article. Listeners can contact any of the media that they know, local or national or international, to encourage, to make journalists aware and to encourage them to cover this, because this needs to be a global story. In August of 2018, we now have the Catholic Church under heavy pressure. It's been shown that they've paid out over a billion dollars in settlements to, you know, to families, victims of abuse as they protected and supported priests abusing and abusive priests. So this is a great time for this story to come out because it's a national, international, global trend. Okay. So there's a lot of people calling for mass resignations and basically saying, like, with Kate Kelly, like, with me, if the church is going to punish Sam for this, I don't want to be a member of it anymore. And so they're going to go to websites like QuitMormon.com I believe or QuitMormon.org and. And use this as an occasion to resign from the church. It's QuitMormon.com do you have any statements on whether people do or don't decide to resign from the church over this matter?

Sam Young [01:28:36] No, not really. When people resign or when people decide to stay in the church, I congratulate them on whatever decision they make. Only they have all the information necessary to make the decision that's proper for them and for their family. So if somebody picked this time to resign, I'd say, well, good for you. Congratulations for taking a courageous action, taking. Doing something that you believe is right. Some people have consequences when they resign with regards to their family, with regards to friends, certainly with a church community. So I would not encourage it one way or the other. I'd simply say whatever decision you make, that's the right decision and I commend you for that decision.

John Dehlin [01:29:40] Okay, so people can make that choice. There are people calling for a mass resignation, and so if you want to be a part of that, that's up to you. I'm not sure how constructive that is. I haven't participated ever in mass resignation events. But it's people's choice. Do you have a sense that this is a genuine discipline, a council trial, where evidence is going to be evaluated fairly, or do you have the sense that the decision has already been made and do you have a prediction of the verdict or the outcome?

Sam Young [01:30:16] Well, I would be shocked first of all, if they considered the evidence. Fairly. If you presented this evidence to anybody outside of the church and probably a huge amount of members of the church, I don't think anybody would say excommunicate the guy. However, I think the deck is super stacked against me. Number one, I've already had the conversation with stake president back in January where he accused me of speaking out against the church and its leaders. And I said, no, I'm not. I'm speaking against Apollos. He said, yes, you are. I said, no, you're not. Yes, no, yes, no. It just became childish. And so the state president is leading the charge on this thing. I know his feelings already, otherwise he wouldn't have called the council. He's already made the decision. And then this thing of giving me an out to resign, give me an out to resign that also would indicate the decisions have already been made here. So I would expect excommunication because I'm not going to bend in the face of protecting children in face of all of these victims that now are finding a place that they can open up. They found a safe place. They have started, many have started the healing process just as a result or during Protect the Children, Protect LDS children. So I'm not going to quit speaking up for them. And it sounds to me like that's what they're calling for.

The Church on Trial for Child Protection

John Dehlin [01:32:05] Yeah, I think one of the most important things for us to take away from this is the church would like us to believe that Sam Young is on trial. But the truth is the LDS Church is on trial. And we're going to see how they respond to the trial that they're under, which is the trial of caring for children, of justice, of compassion, of integrity, of leadership. The church, the LDS Church is on trial September 9th, not Sam Young. And so it's so fitting that that's Russell M. Nelson's birthday. Basically, the Mormon Church and Russell M. Nelson are on trial on September 9, Russell M. Nelson's birthday. And we're gonna see how the Church stands in that trial. And that's kind of where that's where we are, Sam. And so since the Church is on trial, I'm gonna ask you to close by telling us what does the Church need to do to get you to stop this wonderful movement that you have started, you and all your supporters. What does the Church need to do to get out of the hot seat and to get you to stop doing this work?

Sam Young [01:33:28] It's right there. No one on one interviews, no sexually explicit questions ever go to what the Boy Scouts have gone to. Let's go to what the Catholic Church has gone to. By heavens, in the Catholic Church, if a priest asks a kid during confession, do you masturbate? They fire his butt out of there. The same with every other church. We have it set that in many stakes. Ask the kids about masturbation. That is horrendous. Anyway, those are that for me to go away. There you got the 10 things. If they were to implement those 10 words, I had acquiesced everything that they're asking for to protect our children.

John Dehlin [01:34:18] I love it. Well, Sam, we've had thousands of people join us for this live interview and I couldn't read all the people saying how much they love you and support because it would take another five hours. But just know we've had 475 people like this episode. We've got 24 shares thanks to the 24 people out of thousands who actually had the courage to share this on their public timeline. If you really want to help Sam, if You really believe in protecting the children then right now share this interview on your Facebook stream. I'm a little bit embarrassed. I don't mean to shame people, but out of the thousands that have tuned in, only 24 people have shared this on their wall. That shows an incredible amount of fear and control. And I just want to encourage those of you who really care about children and who are in a safe position to do so or who are even willing to take a risk to stand up for children to please share this video far and wide so that you can stand for truth. You can support Sam John.

Sam Young [01:35:30] Yeah, there are legitimate 24 sounds a little low, but there are legitimate reasons why people can't share this. There's a lot of fear. There are severe consequences like losing your livelihood. So those that can't share, talk to your non member friends about this. They are going to be horrified at what we're doing. And every non member friend you talk to, because everybody can do that. I think that raises the awareness at least by one. But generally they're going to talk to other people too.

John Dehlin [01:36:06] I have great news. I'm just informed by Alan Mount, who I love, who has helped out with the Bill Riehl marriage on a tightrope podcast that we have over 373 shares. So I stand corrected. Oh my God, that's amazing. And I just needed to refresh my page so we had 373 courageous listeners share this. And you know what, thank you and I'm really sorry for doubting so many of you. Huge kudos and love to the 373 courageous people who are willing to share this on their walls. I'm humbled and I deeply apologize for jumping to a hasty conclusion. And I'm very proud of those of you who can, and you're right, those who can't are not to be shamed. Not everyone's safe to do so. But talk to your friends, talk to your family, talk to bishops, talk to stake presidents, talk to ward members, get the word out, talk to journalists, do everything you can, protect your children. And so you know, don't let your children be interviewed by bishops and stake presidents alone. Ever. There's so much that we can do and kudos to everyone who is behind you, Sam, and who's supporting your amazing work.

Sam Young [01:37:33] Yep, I offer the exact same kudos. Thank you very much. This is what is making this movement work. Not me. It's all the people that are supporting in all the ways they're supporting.

John Dehlin [01:37:47] Yeah. And Joanna writes. Share on Twitter Reddit and all social media. That's true as well. Nadine McCombs Hanson, who I love, who is on our board, she says it got shared in a lot of groups, which is more productive than sharing on a personal wall. Nadine reminds us to share in Facebook groups. That's awesome. Great idea, Nadine. We love you. Nadine is on the Open Stories foundation board. Kim Sandberg Turner is on the Open Stories foundation board. She joined us. I think Steve Holbrook on the Open Stories foundation board joined us. Huge shout out to everyone in the Open Stories foundation who makes all this possible. We're really grateful for everyone who has helped out and who's helping out. All right, well, I think we're coming to a close. Close. Thank you. This has been a wonderful interview. I'm really proud of this interview and I'm really proud. You've done a fantastic job, Sam, with this interview and with all your work. You're a hero to me and to so, so many. Thank you. And Sam. Oh, we're at 404 shares now, so we've. We've exceeded 400 shares. Thank you so much to everyone who shared. Sam, will you give us a closing testimony or comment as we conclude this interview? A closing testimony or statement or witness or whatever you want to say? This will be, you know, this is your interview before your disciplinary council. I anticipate that in, you know, one and a half weeks, we'll have you back and you will have been excommunicated. But that hasn't happened yet. So what do you want to say as a final exhortation, witness, testimony, you know, whatever it is? What final words do you want to have for Mormon Stories listeners, for people who check out of the Internet on the, you know, on a week before your disciplinary council?

Sam Young's Closing Testimony and Farewell

Sam Young [01:39:54] Well, Number one, I don't feel like I'm going as a lamb to the slaughter. I feel like I'm going as a lion to roar for the protection of our children. Some people have said that I'm a wolf. I'm a sheep in wolf's clothing. No.

John Dehlin [01:40:22] Wolf in sheep's clothing.

Sam Young [01:40:23] No. Sheep in wolf's clothing. No. No. Okay. And that. Okay, so what do they say? I'm a sheep. No. I'm a wolf in sheep's clothing.

John Dehlin [01:40:31] Wolf in sheep's clothing. That's what members would say.

Sam Young [01:40:33] Okay. That's what some people say. Frankly, I have taken my sheep's clothing off. I don't feel like I'm a sheep except to one concept, and that is the teachings and example of Jesus Christ I'm willing to be a sheep there, but I've taken my sheep's clothing off to reveal who I am. I'm somebody that's concerned about our children. When you mentioned testimony, I immediately went to something that may not be appropriate, but it was looking at Jesus Christ that the. I'm so glad that I have the testimony that I have today. The faith that I have today, which when I say faith, it's got to have evidence behind it. Faith is hope with evidence. So my faith is now firmly rooted where I think it was most of my life. It just was covered up by a bunch of crap. But it's firmly rooted in the gorgeous teachings and example of Jesus Christ. Talk about you hear things about the wheat and the tares being separated today. Well, Jesus Christ, I like his parable where he was separating the sheep from the goats, and his sheep were the ones that cared for those that were marginalized, those that had been harmed, those who were naked, those that were hungry. I love that. And that's exactly what this movement is about, is to help so that more hungry, wounded people are not created as children, and that we reach out to and recognize and validate and listen to and help in the healing process for those that are the least of these in Christ's parable. So there's my testimony.

John Dehlin [01:42:33] Lion for the lying for the Lord, lying for the children. That's Sam Young.

Sam Young [01:42:39] Well, from day one, that's the way I felt when I found out what had happened to my daughter. I was Hawaiian.

John Dehlin [01:42:47] Bill Moore responded on the comments, and he said, he's there for you, Sam, as a witness if you need him. Now, I don't want to pressure you to choose Bill, but.

Sam Young [01:42:55] Well, thanks, Bill. I really appreciate that, my friend.

John Dehlin [01:42:57] I love Bill real. I mean, I love Bill Morgan. I love Lynn Moore. I love the Moore family, and I'm just honored that they have joined. Yeah. And someone else wrote, not all heroes have capes. And I think, Sam, you're a hero to so, so many. So you are a hero, brother. You've done a great job. And I just can't tell you how proud I am to be your friend and to be a small part of helping you protect the children. So thank you.

Sam Young [01:43:31] Gigantic part, my friend. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [01:43:35] All right, we love you, listeners. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. This has been a world record, record shattering live broadcast of Mormon Stories podcast. We have had well over 400 shares of this episode. 420 shares. 546 likes or loves. Over 720 people were joining at its peak and we're just so thankful. Please, everyone share this information every way that they can. Social media, friends, family, bishopric members, stake presidents. Share with everyone. Post this on all the social media. Speak to everyone. Thank you so much for your support. Fly to Houston with me to show up at Sam's Visual. I can't confirm that I'm going, but I'm going to try to come to Houston. Come with me if you can. If not, organize or join a local vigil on Russell m. Nelson's birthday, September 9th. Wherever you are, we want to have vigils everywhere and invite local media to your vigil. So wherever you are, invite the news to come to your vigil so that you can get local press coverage in your support of Sam Young on the eve of his excommunication. So please support us. Please support Sam. There'll be some. I hope that there'll be some massive demonstration in Salt Lake City on September 9th, and I'm hoping that those of you in the Salt Lake area can come to that or organize one in Provo or Logan or Ogden or wherever you are. So look to Mormon Stories Podcast and Protect Thaddeus Children for aggregation of any vigils or events that are taking place. We want to aggregate those so that people can know where to attend and how that is really important. Finally, I just want to thank everyone who supports Mormon Stories Podcast. We couldn't do this without your donations and support. So thanks to everyone who donates. Thanks to the Open Stories Foundation Board of Directors and the Open Stories foundation staff for making all this possible. This episode will be produced by Cody Layton. So thanks to Cody for making this possible. I also want to give a shout out sorry to Tim Corey. Tim Corey has been helping out with the Open Stories foundation for several months now, and I think he was a crucial supporter of your fast here. Is that right, Sam?

Sam Young [01:46:16] Yeah, Every. Every single day. He was wonderful.

John Dehlin [01:46:19] So a huge shout out to Tim Corey, who's been amazing and helpful in that effort. And please donate to Mormon Stories Podcast. If you can go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button. 10, 20, 50, $100 a month, whatever you can afford. These donations are what allow us to have an office, to have equipment, to have Internet broadband, to have staff, to have accountants, to have equipment. All the things that we need to run a podcast only happen through your donations. So please donate today. Sam, if they want to donate to Protect LDS Children, how do they give donations to you?

Sam Young [01:47:02] Well, if you go to protectlvschildren.org there's a donate button right there.

John Dehlin [01:47:09] And they can donate because you've spent tens of thousands of your own dollars, not to mention the time and the neglect to your business. So, you know, support Sam financially. Is that fair to say?

Sam Young [01:47:24] Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:47:26] All right. And Sam, if you're willing, we'll have you back to talk about your disciplinary council after it happens. So we hope you'll be willing to join us again to tell us about what happens. Is that all right?

Sam Young [01:47:36] Sure. Of course.

John Dehlin [01:47:38] And Mormon Stories listeners, stay tuned for more epic Mormon Stories interviews. We've had some of the most successful interviews of our life over the past several months, and we've got amazing ones planned. So please continue joining us for Mormon Stories podcast in the weeks and months and years ahead. Love you, Sam.

Sam Young [01:47:58] Love you, John. Thanks very much.

John Dehlin [01:48:00] Get ready for the maelstorm, the firestorm. You're gonna have a thousand reporters reach out to you and good luck with that.

Sam Young [01:48:07] Let us know how that's the case. That'd be great.

John Dehlin [01:48:09] Yeah. Someone posted that in the comments that some reporters have been trying to get a hold of you but don't know how. If listeners want to get reporters in contact with you, how do they get reporters in contact with you?

Sam Young [01:48:23] Well, probably the best place is my email address, which is liberty samsn.com liberty-samsn.com

John Dehlin [01:48:37] if you want to put reporters in touch with Sam.

Sam Young [01:48:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:39] All right. Love you, brother. Love all our listeners. Tune in again soon for another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Wiser is a song written and performed by Mormon Stories listener Russell Ash. A message in the intended for his children to have love and kindness be their guiding star.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.