Introduction and Welcome

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:00:11] Your mom and me, we've seen this life with eyes that only see in black and white.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners. To help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:01:03] Tune me out if you must

Guest [00:01:09] I

Guest 2 [00:01:09] know you've heard enough

John Dehlin [00:01:14] But I sing

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:01:15] this song Just because I hope you'll be wiser than your daddy was I hope you'll be wiser than your daddy

Guest 3 [00:01:29] welcome. I'm really, really glad that this event actually took place. I think it was six months ago or so. I actually contacted John Dehlin and said, hey, Hans Mattsson just released a book in Swedish. Did you know about that? And then things started to sort of roll and eventually we got here. Before we start, I'd like to thank a lot of people because of course there's been a lot of people have done a lot of work to make this happen. So first of all, I'd like to thank Hans and Birgitta and Christina and Rudolf for everything that you've done to be able to make this event possible, to be in this venue. And you will see many other things that they've done as the event goes along. I also like to thank Christopher, wherever he is there, who's been helping out with a lot of things that I can't do myself. And also Stefan, who's been helping with some things. I think he's here somewhere. And Jonathan and Ieva Bautista, who's been helping to welcome the American guests while they're here. And of course John De Lin and everyone else from Mormon Stories who are here today. I mean, this wouldn't happen if you weren't here. So thank you very much. I'll leave the time to John Dehlin and our first happening, the Sweden Rescue panel discussion. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] Hello everyone. My name is John Dehlin, for those who don't know. I am so very honored and moved that so many of you are willing to take some time out of your lovely weekends to join us. My understanding is that we have people here not only from Sweden, but also from Denmark and from Norway and from Finland. Are there any other countries that I am neglecting in The United States, Ireland, Any other. Did we get it? Okay. Raise your hand if you're from Norway. Welcome. Wow. Norway is well represented. We need to do one of these events in Norway.

Hans Mattsson [00:04:17] Welcome.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Several people from Norway. Raise your hand if you're from Sweden, I think. All right. Is there any Denmark? Okay, there is Denmark here in Ireland, in the United States. Raise your hand if you're from the United States. All right, excellent. And we also want to. What? Finland. From Finland. Finland, yeah, Finland.

Guest [00:04:42] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] Okay. Okay. So cool. So exciting. Go Scandinavia. Part of my ancestry comes from Great Britain in England, but a quarter of my ancestry comes from Sweden, so I actually hail from Scandinavia as well. My ancestors. And so it's particularly special for me. And I've never actually been to Sweden before. I've flown through the Copenhagen airport, but I've never been to Sweden. So it's really nice to be in touch with part of my homeland. It's very moving. So we also want to welcome the people who are joining us on Facebook Live. It's very early in the United States right now. Is it something like 6:00am or 6:30 by now? So thank you for joining us. We would really love to have your participation as well. If you want to make comments, ask questions. We'll do our best to monitor this live stream. Some of you will be viewing this later in the day as well. And we just want to thank you for joining us through Facebook. We'll be posting this to YouTube as well, and most people will be consuming this via audio. People will be listening to this, obviously, through the podcast once it's released. So we want everyone to know that this will be recorded. And so if some of you have sensitivities, but hopefully there's enough of you who are comfortable speaking, being seen and speaking publicly, because we just want to show how important Sweden and Scandinavia is to Mormonism. So let me just circle back to that point that there's a reason why. And I need a copy of your book. Will somebody grab a copy of Hans book and bring it here? Let me just. That's the Swedish version. I'll take that. But also an English version. Good. Okay. So there are several reasons why we're hosting this event, and the main reason is. And this is something very important. And I want to thank Travis as well, Travis, for helping make this happen. But Many years ago, 2005, we started Mormon Stories Podcast, and we had no idea to what extent it would have an impact, to what extent it would reach people, to what extent it would help play a role in transforming the lives of Mormons and the Mormon people and post Mormons. But when we started Mormon Stories, we had this hope that together, if we could get a listening and a viewing community together, we could support each other, we could provide meet each other's needs, provide a forum where people could share information, share experiences, and most importantly, connect with people around the world who were struggling. I went through a faith crisis around 2001 when I was working for Microsoft, and it was very traumatic. There was nothing on the Internet available to support people. After I tried to talk to my bishop and family members and members of the ward, even people where I worked at Microsoft, nobody wanted to talk about it. My family didn't want to talk about it, the bishop didn't want to talk about it, members of my ward didn't want to talk about it. And so I suffered for several years feeling completely alone. And so started Mormon Stories with the idea, this is unacceptable. There needs to be a way for people to share, to learn to support each other. And so we started around 2005. And it wasn't within a few years where I started hearing from people all over the world. But for some reason, a particularly high level of people from Sweden started reaching out. And I believe it was Christina who reached out to me, Christina Henke who reached out to me very early on and said, you have a number of listeners in Sweden and we just want to let you know that we're here and that we're paying attention. And that was very exciting for me. And what that did is it grew. It grew to where not only was there a Sweden Mormon Stories community very early on, there were several other Scandinavian Mormon Stories groups that emerged, but something very special that happened in addition to Sweden holding eventually its own Mormon Stories event. But of course, something very magical that happened was Hans Mattsson, who had served as an area authority from Sweden for at least five years, along with his dear wife Brigitte, joined in with the Swedish Mormon Stories community. And that escalated to the point where once Hans and Birgitte went through their faith crisis and, and started speaking openly and speaking publicly in Sweden, it started making the LDS Church very nervous and concerned. And Hans ended up reaching out to Marlon Jensen, who had served here in the area. And they had a meeting in New York where Hans basically expressed concerns to Marlon Jensen. Several of us ended up putting together a survey of over 3,000 people who had left the church so that we could share with the church the severity of the situation, the significance of the problem of people suffering. And Hans and Travis and Greg Prince ended up meeting with Marlon Jensen in New York, shared the concerns not only on behalf of Sweden, but of the entire world of people who are leaving and struggling with Mormonism and in pain and who are suffering. And it moved Marlon Jensen, who was church historian at the time, but also a general authority, to take these concerns back to the LDS Church where he could communicate to the Brethren the severity of the problem. And we'll be getting into this over the weekend. But what that led to was actually Travis taking this presentation to Salt Lake City, presenting the results to several departments within LDS Church headquarters. And Marlon Jensen, as I understand it, used all of this information to help convince the Quorum of the Twelve in the First Presidency to release the Gospel Topics essays that then, along with Rough Stone rolling, have had an incredible influence in awakening Latter Day Saints Mormons across the world to the historical problems that face Mormons. And. And so for over a century, people did not know the truth about Mormonism. Members were not made aware of even the most basic historical facts, like Joseph Smith being a polygamist, polyandry, the Peep Stones, the translation, the Book of Abraham problems. And all of the sudden, because of, you know, all of the things that preceded Mormon stories, but then Mormon stories, but then the Swedish Mormon stories group, and Hans Mattsson and Brigitte and all of your efforts in Scandinavia as well, that led to a groundswell that has really helped transform the Mormon Church today as we know it. And I can't go to a single city in the world where I meet with Mormons, where they don't mention Mormon stories or the Gospel topics essays as being a significant factor in them awakening to seeing the Mormon Church for the first time for what it truly is. So, Sweden, Scandinavia, you guys played a critical role in transforming of the experience of not only a global religion, but also of tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Mormons worldwide. And that's what we're here to celebrate is your role in transforming a world religion. So I just want to applaud you, applaud you for. For your role. And so this event's going to be over two days today. We are going to have two parts. We are going to do a panel to kind of retell that story. We've never had Hans and Birgitte and the members of the Swedish community on video before. We did do an audio recording of Hans and Birgitte several years ago when the New York Times ran their story, but we've never got them on video before, so that's something that's new. And then this Story the Swedish Rescue has never been told by the people who were part of it. And so we are going to be talking about the Swedish Rescue, which I didn't mention in my intro, but one of the very important parts for our listeners of this whole story was when once Marlon Jensen and Richard Turley and church headquarters found out about the Mormon Stories Sweden group and how that was starting to grow and how the entire country was starting to be traumatized by the faith crisis of several Swedes. The LDS Church sent Marlon Jensen and Richard Turley as sort of a SWAT team, as they would say in the United States, to help try and rescue Sweden from what might become the opposite of the second harvest, which was an unharvest de harvest of the Swedish people. And so what we're going to be doing now is we're going to be for the first time telling the story of the Swedish Rescue from the standpoint of the people, some of the people who. Who were involved. Is that right? Is that. Is there anything else I need to do before we launch in? Okay, so without any further ado, I'm gonna take this microphone. Is that okay? Are we getting good feedback from our listeners? Are there any. Are they listening? Are they able to hear? Okay? And I need someone to come over to this camera because it's right. Do you guys mind scooting over? Everyone scooting over one chair. Everyone scoot over just one chair. I need someone to just be at that mic and to re level the mic at the camera just to make sure that it's panned out to all five of the participants. So just. Is everybody in the shot? Is that okay? Okay. All right, so we are now ready to actually launch into this discussion. And we have our microphone. And so we're going to talk about the history of the Swedish Rescue now. So let's begin by having each member of our panel introduce themselves and just tell us really quickly, just in a minute or two, your name, where you're from, and just give us a small sense for your background in the church.

Panelists Share Their Backgrounds and Faith Journeys

Hans Mattsson [00:15:33] Okay? My name is Hans Mason and Hans H. Matson. I'm married to Begita Matson. And maybe, no, maybe a lot of you know my story, but I was born and raised in Ytuboi, or Gothenburg, in English. And now I live in Spain, enjoying the sun and warmth. And I've been taking a really long time to struggle with the faith crisis I've been through. And the first five to eight years I was fighting for the answers that still prove for me that the shoot was Right. But then on a journey from Gothenburg to Stockholm.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] But tell us really quickly, just give someone a 30 second sort of what your life was like before the Swedish rescue started. So before your faith crisis, basically. For those who haven't listened to your story, just say, I was born here. I served a mission. You know, I served in these callings.

Hans Mattsson [00:16:31] I was born in a faithful Mormon family. My father was the second generation. My granddad Oscar was the first one to join the church with Hildegard, his wife. And we grew up in Herbert Matson family as very loyal and faithful and really, really believing and enjoying to be special people, to be selected to have the truth, the only truth that were on the earth. So we were quite happy about that. And of course there was some time at school and so you were the only Mormon, but you were kind of proud of it. So then I went on my mission to England, Birmingham mission. And I served after two years. And after that I went to the military service. Had a blessing from my dad that I will meet someone that will convert to the church. And I did. It was Pegitta. She was serving in the kitchen there. And she's still doing it, but in our home. And we were married in the temple. And I was really, really scared to take her to the temple because I had a terrible experience in my own endowment.

John Dehlin [00:17:53] And we'll get more into your story, so just tell us. Just list the callings you had up until.

Hans Mattsson [00:17:58] Yeah. I was called as a branch president, a bishop in Kongsbache. I was called the first councillor in the state presidency in Gothenburg. I was called as a stake president in Gothenburg. And we moved to Stockholm. And I was called to be a counsellor to the mission president, take care of the northern part of Sweden, like Luli Umi and so on. And then I was called to accept the calling as 70 in the third quarter. Model 70 as an area authority for five years. And there my journey started.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] Okay.

Hans Mattsson [00:18:40] All right.

John Dehlin [00:18:40] Thank you, Hans. Thank you very much.

Guest [00:18:43] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] Tell us your name.

Guest [00:18:44] And my name is Per Ingeberjerson. And I joined the Shirt as a convert when I was about 25 or 26. Quickly thereafter I met Anga, who was with me here today. We married in the temple. I had many different callings in church. I started out as an elder quorum president. And then I worked for a long time in the district as a counselor to the district presidency in the south of Sweden. We were in a situation where we tried to get into a situation where it became a stake. So we were very ambitious and Worked really hard to get more members and more activities. And after that I was called to become a bishop. So I was bishop for about seven years. And during that time I also was working as a president for a company. We also have moved around quite a lot. We were renovating houses and doing a lot of things and had a private company. And then suddenly we moved to China because I got a new position abroad. And that was the first time in a very long time I got time to think. Before that I must be running. But suddenly it hit me. I had time to think, not only do what I was supposed to do, and there came up a lot of different questions in my mindset and I started to search information Internet. I started to order books from on Internet as well. And I think I have a whole bookshelf at home with different books written by Queen and a lot of different people.

John Dehlin [00:20:24] And so around what year did your faith crisis happen?

Guest [00:20:27] Start 2000. 2000. So before.

John Dehlin [00:20:30] Yeah, okay, let's not go into that yet, but we got a sense. So you served as bishop?

Guest [00:20:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] For how many years?

Guest [00:20:37] Seven years in.

John Dehlin [00:20:38] Where was that?

Guest [00:20:39] In Lund, in south of Sweden.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Okay, excellent. All right, good. Let's keep going with the introductions.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:20:45] I'm Christina Hanke, the co author of Truth Seeking the book. I met the Mormons when I was 16 and was baptized as a convert at the age of 17. And I really wanted to serve the Lord, so I even went on a mission. And I was in London 71 till 73. And that's really where my faith crisis started, because it was a really odd mission and we were taught all sorts of strange things that I had no idea about and I guess nobody else either in Sweden at that time. I was rather devastated, I should say, when I came home. But I had nowhere to turn. Where could I turn? My parents was against the church, of course. I was 22 years old. I had nowhere to go, so I stayed. And then I met Rudolf and we married in the temple and we moved to Hoenigen. And I had those doubts in my mind. But I really believed that every person over 25 in the church must have some preparedness inside, deep inside, that the church might not be true. That turned out not to be true. I have served with young women both at the ward and stake level. I've been a primary president for several years here in Honinge. And when I made my doubts official In 2003, I was the Relief Society president of the biggest ward in Sweden. That was hard. But today my whole family, my husband is out and also our four children. So I'm happy with that.

John Dehlin [00:22:35] We'll get there.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:22:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] All right. Thank you. Welcome, Christina. And per Enga. Is that close to how to pronounce it? Okay.

Hans Mattsson [00:22:42] All right.

Guest 2 [00:22:45] Yung Natan Bautista. I'm second generation Mormon. My parents converted when I was about 4 or 5 years old. Grew up in the church from Gothenburg originally, and then I moved to Stockholm because I married a girl from Stockholm. I've served in different callings during my time in the church. I've been as a world mission leader. I've been in as an elders quorum president. I've been Sunday school teacher and in primary as well, and also in young men's presidencies. I served my mission in London south between 96 to 98. And I've been. My journey started when I was young, so I had a hard time telling that I knew the church was true when I grew up. And that was an expectation. So I would struggle with that and then basically went on my mission because I wanted to really give the church 100% of my effort and then didn't turn that well out. But I left the church around. Just.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] We're not there yet.

Guest 2 [00:23:41] Okay.

Hans Mattsson [00:23:41] No, no.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:23:42] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:23:42] Okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:23:43] Take us up to. Take us up to when the Swedish Rescue started. What were you at the time the Swedish Rescue started?

Guest 2 [00:23:49] So at that time, I was critical about things in the church. And then I. At the time, I served as a Sunday school teacher. And basically I lived with a compromise, personal compromise with the teachings of the church.

Guest [00:24:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] All right. So we've given the backgrounds. We've got Hans, Peringa, Christina and Jonathan. Okay, let's start by when did. Let's just say when was the first time any of you remember talking to each other about challenges or issues? Let's just start when the community started forming. So who would have been the first two people to actually talk? Who can tell. Who can tell that story? I want to start understanding how the network builds. Right.

Hans Mattsson [00:24:35] The first time I was really active, I just released as a 70.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] So you. So from 2000 to 2005, you were a member of the third quorum of the 70s?

Hans Mattsson [00:24:44] Yes. And this is 2005 and 6 or something.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] So after you had been released.

Guest [00:24:50] Yeah.

Hans Mattsson [00:24:50] The stake president called me, said, can you go with me to Sudetelje to meet Perigny? He has some questions about the church. I think you'd be the right man helping.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] You were going to help Peringa?

Guest [00:25:01] Yeah.

How the Swedish Rescue Group Came Together

John Dehlin [00:25:01] Okay, so we've got Hans to the rescue. Hans, this is the first sweetest rescue. So you were struggling by 2005, 2006. Tell us where you were at.

Guest [00:25:13] I had been struggling in China for many years, actually, before I came to Sweden. I came back to Sweden, and I know something was wrong. I felt completely devastated because my whole family were members. The only person I could speak with was my wife. She was very supportive, and I'm very grateful for that, I can tell you. And I came to Sweden and I made a list of like seven to 10 questions. I said, I need to get these questions.

John Dehlin [00:25:41] Tell us what some of those questions were. Hold the mic. Right towards your mouth.

Guest [00:25:44] Yeah. It was, of course, historical questions about Joseph Smith, about polygamy. There was about the book of Abraham and. And, yeah, a number of others. I mean, these are just examples. I think these are the questions we all ask ourselves if we start to study the history of the church. And I made a list, and I said, actually, if I should continue to be active in the church, I would like to have some answers on these questions. So I went to my bishop, and he called the stake president and Hans came in and I was there.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] Who was your stake president at the time? If you want to share his name, you don't have to.

Guest [00:26:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:16] What was the name

Guest [00:26:19] you want to stool? Don.

John Dehlin [00:26:20] Okay. Did you just say a name?

Guest [00:26:22] No, no, no. I was just confused. Tried to pick it up first. And I have to say one thing. I was very confused about Hans when he came into the picture, because I understood he was there to convince me about something that, you know, give me answers or something. But in the whole discussion, of course, I could feel that he was partly on my side, if I say so. I mean, I could feel he.

Hans Mattsson [00:26:48] I always liked the truth.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] Yeah.

Guest [00:26:51] I was so confused to start with. Now, why have they sent him to talk to me when he at the same time have a deep understanding of my questions and no answers? I was just confused.

John Dehlin [00:27:04] So the stake president brings Hans. Hans. What was that? So what was it like? What did you feel when the stake president comes to you and says, help me with Piringa. I need help?

Hans Mattsson [00:27:15] You know, before that, I had El Tom Perry telling me about the book that we solve all the problems and I'm gonna need follow them.

John Dehlin [00:27:22] And he was referring to Rough stone rolling by Richard Bushman, I think. So tell us what. What Perry had told. Had said to you. Well, tell us the suitcase story.

Hans Mattsson [00:27:31] Yeah. As a 70, we were in the stake and we had the stake president worrying because he had a lot of questions from some members about the book of Abraham the polygamy, polyandry and so on. And he called me because I was a 70, and I didn't even know the questions. So when I went there with Elton Perry, he was assigned as an apostle to serve in Europe for a year. And we went there, talked to the stake president, there were only three of us. And the stake president explained, this is the problems, you know, and then Elton Perrott with a loud voice said, you know, I have in my briefcase a manuscript that will answer all your questions, and we're going to prove them all wrong. And we're not only going to prove everybody wrong, we're going to go after them and we're going to nail them. You know, he was really loud, and I thought, that sounds good. I didn't know what it meant, but to nail someone, it must be good. Anyway, so after a while, we never get any answers, you know, So I called down to Frankfurt and asked for the book that he had in the briefcase. And we got a very lovely, careful answer. You're not supposed to ask general thought those kind of questions, and that's trigged me a little bit. So when I talked to Peringy there, I was really confused, you know.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] So you had hoped that this book would solve all your problems when you were an area authority, but then you asked for it. They told you, stop asking questions. And so it's a couple years now since you're not area authority anymore. You're still waiting for the questions, you're still struggling with the confusion. And the stake president brings you to solve Puringa's problems, to help him, and

Hans Mattsson [00:29:34] has the same question. And Elton Perry had it in the briefcase still, I guess, but he's dead now, so I can't have him.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] Christina, are you wanting to.

Guest [00:29:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:45] Okay.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:29:46] And I think that the next connection was between Hans Matzson and myself. We were neighbors.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] Okay, wait, wait, wait. So what happened at the end of. Let's just hear what happened at the end. So in that intervention, Paringa, you were confused that he seemed to have as many questions as you. How did that meeting end?

Guest [00:30:00] Yeah, I mean, it ended in a kind of confused way because he didn't have an answer for me and was just confused where he was. He didn't really clearly tell me openly that he had the same doubts as I had, and he also found no answers, but he had no answers to give me. And I basically said to Hans and to the Stake Presidency and to my bishop. And now if I have seven, eight Christians here, if you only can prove Me wrong in one of them I would be happy. Only one is enough for me to have a feeling that there's something true in this church. But I got nothing.

John Dehlin [00:30:35] They picked the wrong guy in Hans to help solve your problems. Hans, you didn't do your job.

Hans Mattsson [00:30:40] They picked the right guy because I like to be honest and seeking only the truth.

John Dehlin [00:30:47] So how did you feel when that meeting ended, Hans?

Hans Mattsson [00:30:50] I feel really dizzy. And I talked to the stake president on the way home to Stockholm and he said, well, at least we have eternal marriage. That's what he said. And I said, well, yeah, he said,

John Dehlin [00:31:04] at least we have eternal marriage if we can't answer all the historical problems. Okay, okay. So what was the next step in the story that meeting ends?

Hans Mattsson [00:31:12] Well, the next step. Is that what Christina like to tell you? But Pering is coming up again. Kristina, you tell her before that.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:31:23] The next step, I think was that the bishop was inspired as well. Because I was an apostate, but my husband and children were still active and we heard nothing from the church. You know, I had no visiting teachers, no home teachers. But then the bishop was inspired to call Hans as my home teacher. That's great. That was so cool. And I. I felt the same as you did. Something is not right here.

John Dehlin [00:31:53] So what. What was the next step in the Swedish rescue? So you. The group formed. Did you guys talk? Was that the next step?

Hans Mattsson [00:31:59] Kirstina and I talked about it. And we also found out some members knew about it.

John Dehlin [00:32:04] How did.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:32:05] Who.

John Dehlin [00:32:05] How did that happen? Where you guys felt comfortable Tell the story of you guys feeling each other out. To know if you could talk to each other.

Hans Mattsson [00:32:12] You tell it.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:32:14] We have known each other for a long time, since we were 17. So I knew. I know Hans family and Birgitta. And so we felt quite comfortable with each other. But of course, when I first started to notice that Hans had the same questions, it was a real surprise. Is this real? And I remember one incident when I was stopping by Hans house on my way to work here. And he came out and we were standing by the car and he looked at me and he said, Christina, you are not crazy. Things are like this. That was great.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] How'd that feel, Christina?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:32:56] It's. Of course I. I knew that I was not crazy, but it was great to be validated anyhow.

John Dehlin [00:33:02] Okay.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:33:03] And. And I knew that Hans, of course was very known to me. He's not the area representative. To me he's Hasse Hans Matson.

John Dehlin [00:33:12] Which means what?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:33:13] Which means that we can communicate on an equal basis. I would say we shared books and ideas.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] Okay, so how did it go from you two being open and honest with each other to a group forming? How did the network grow?

Guest [00:33:30] I just know that Hans. I think Hans called me one day and said, we are going to have a small meeting with a few people who have the same questions as you have and around.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] What year was this? Was this 2006? Was it 2007?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:33:42] I think it was later.

John Dehlin [00:33:45] Do you have an idea what year that first meeting was?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:33:48] I have an idea what year it was because I met this. I think this at the same. It was my daughter's wedding, and that was in 2000. And when was she married? Nine.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] Okay, so three years went by where you guys were doing what. What were you doing?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:34:04] Surviving.

John Dehlin [00:34:05] What were you doing during those three years in terms of your doubts, your questions, your faith?

Hans Mattsson [00:34:10] Reading. Reading. What were you reading?

John Dehlin [00:34:12] What were you reading?

Hans Mattsson [00:34:12] We're reading all the books Sekastina had, like Rough Stone Rolling.

John Dehlin [00:34:17] What else?

Hans Mattsson [00:34:17] We're reading about Emma Smith, the Enigma, Mormon Enigma. Mormon Enigma. I'm reading about polygamy, Compton's Satan, Reagan's

John Dehlin [00:34:30] autobiography, In Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton. You're reading books.

Hans Mattsson [00:34:36] And we listen to John de Lynn. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] Who was the first. Who was the first to discover podcasting? Which of the.

Hans Mattsson [00:34:43] Christina.

John Dehlin [00:34:44] Okay, Christina, talk about that. So how did you hear about Mormon Stories podcast?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:34:49] No, I was probably just googling around and found you.

John Dehlin [00:34:52] Okay.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:34:53] And then you had this program, Stay lds. And at that time, I was still kind of hoping that there would be a way to return. And I listened to you, and I listened to your podcast about your mission in Guatemala, and there were many similarities to my own. So that's why I felt kind of connected to you.

John Dehlin [00:35:15] In London.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:35:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:35:17] Okay. Because that's where the baseball baptisms happened in London.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:35:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:35:20] So there was a direct tie between the London baseball baptism types of shenanigans and what I experienced in Guatemala. Not that you had baseball baptisms. You were there about 10 years after the baseball baptisms era, but the memories

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:35:32] were still alive, right?

John Dehlin [00:35:34] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:35:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:36] So you discovered Mormon Stories podcast first and started listening.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:35:38] Yeah, until Hans. Because I knew that he. He still had hopes that you. He could transform the church and stay and that it would be all right. And you hope for that for many years.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] So it was stale DS that, particularly this vision of liberal progressive Mormons staying in the church and trying to make it work, but make the church better. Is that right? That was intriguing to you?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:36:03] Yes. So you shared that with Hans Yeah, I did. Maybe he had more hopes than I did, but I still. I still loved my tribe, you know, I missed them. I still actually.

John Dehlin [00:36:15] Right, okay. So Stale ds. So, Hans, you started listening as well, and there was reference to that in your book.

Hans Mattsson [00:36:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] You started listening to podcasts, and it was kind of annoying to Birgitte.

Hans Mattsson [00:36:25] Is that right? Yeah, because I was so into it that I nearly forgot that I was married to Birgitta and she thought I was married to you, but she was wrong. But when she said, you know, every time I go to bed, I can hear John de Linds voice. And I'm so tired of that, you know?

John Dehlin [00:36:48] Sorry. Brigitte, where are you?

Hans Mattsson [00:36:49] Brigitte? She's up there.

John Dehlin [00:36:51] Sorry.

Hans Mattsson [00:36:51] Still alive and. Of course. But we also found that there were some people found out that we were talking about things you can't talk about in church. And Pering and his wife met, and we had some from Finland who used to be a missionary in Sweden, who also come and talk to us. And that led up to Swedish Rescue.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] So there was a first meeting at someone's house, Is that right?

Hans Mattsson [00:37:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] Can you talk about that was in 2009.

Hans Mattsson [00:37:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:25] Talk about that meeting now. So who was there and who called the meeting and where was it?

Hans Mattsson [00:37:31] Christina? We had that in your home. So you are so welcome to tell everybody about.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] Yeah. What were you thinking? Why have a meeting? What was your goal?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:37:40] No, but the first meeting we had was with this Finnish missionary that had been here. I met him at my daughter's wedding and he couldn't stop talking to me. So I had to say, I'm at my daughter's wedding. Please come home to me and discuss this. And I told him about Hans Matzson. So of course he wanted him to be there as well. So that was our very first meeting, just Hans and I and this Finnish missionary.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] Okay, and then what was the goal of the meeting?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:38:07] He wanted to talk and talk. You know how it is, don't you? You just want to talk about this.

John Dehlin [00:38:12] Okay, so you want to.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:38:14] You want to test your experiences and your questions against other people.

John Dehlin [00:38:19] Okay, so you guys had that first

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:38:20] meeting, and then shortly after that.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] How did it grow? How did it grow? How did Piringa get involved?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:38:29] So you arranged that meeting rather that autumn as well.

John Dehlin [00:38:32] So there was another meeting with Piringa.

Guest [00:38:36] Actually several meetings in a row. I don't know how many it was, but maybe five, six, seven meetings.

John Dehlin [00:38:41] And this was just Swedes talking about the problems with church history.

Guest [00:38:44] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] So that happened several times over several months?

Guest [00:38:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:48] Several meetings?

Guest [00:38:49] Yes. Correct.

John Dehlin [00:38:50] Okay. How did that grow into something that the church leaders started getting alarmed about? When did the local leaders start getting alarmed?

Hans Mattsson [00:39:01] The whole time.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] Okay, so as you guys are meeting

Hans Mattsson [00:39:04] and talking, they understood that something was happening because I also asked the same question at the priesthood meeting and Sunday school meeting. I didn't tell them that were wrong. I asked them, what would you think about this and things like that in your ward? In my ward. And the state president and his counselors come home and forbid me to talk to my wife about my questions.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] What they say?

Hans Mattsson [00:39:28] They say just that you're not allowed to talk to your wife about the questions. You're not allowed to talk to your children or any members about it.

John Dehlin [00:39:38] So they told you to be quiet?

Hans Mattsson [00:39:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] And how did you like that?

Hans Mattsson [00:39:42] I didn't.

John Dehlin [00:39:43] Why not?

Hans Mattsson [00:39:44] Because I said, you know, you can think that, but I still ask questions because, you know, that's what Joseph Smith did before he has his vision. And. And my wife also heard that they were talking to me about it and she was like a tiger coming out like a roaring Thai lion and said, get lost in tetan and something like that.

John Dehlin [00:40:11] What is it like to the Swedish culture to have someone say, be quiet, don't talk? Does that run in counter to kind of Swedish culture to be told to have a Swede, tell another Swede be quiet and don't talk to anyone about your problems?

Hans Mattsson [00:40:26] It's like you put a red button.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] Which means what?

Hans Mattsson [00:40:29] It means you got fired up and you got demotivated to find out why. And you think that the one person there, or I don't know if you can explain that in English, but he's more or less an idiot.

John Dehlin [00:40:44] Okay? So you come in.

Hans Mattsson [00:40:47] You don't come into my castle and tell me to be quiet to my family because I'm the head of the family and we always talk about everything. Whatever it is, we talk about it. We let the kids know. We don't have secrets for them. Maybe we do, but not all of them. But this is the best thing you can have to get you going.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] Okay. So you got excited, you were told to be quiet. So what did you do about that?

Hans Mattsson [00:41:19] Just ask questions and still going around and meet more people. And of course, I have a twin brother was really worried, so he contacted Salt Lake City and some of the high guys up there that I used to serve with SSMITE general authorities.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] So your brother calls Salt Lake City and says, we have a problem. Salt Lake City, we have a problem.

Hans Mattsson [00:41:41] Yeah. And I Said you really have.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] Okay. Christina, did you want to add something?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:41:48] I just want to add that I can understand the church leaders as well. We were annoying.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] Yeah.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:41:58] It was their meeting, their building, their church.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] Right. And you guys were causing trouble.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:42:03] Yeah. So I can understand them as well. What can they do?

Jensen and Turley Visit Sweden in 2010

John Dehlin [00:42:09] So what year did Turley and Jensen come to Sweden for the Swedish rescue?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:42:15] November 2010.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] Okay, so from 2009, where you're told to be quiet, to 2010, what were the activities that led to Jensen and Turley coming after you had been silenced? How did they get here? What were the steps that led to them actually coming?

Hans Mattsson [00:42:32] Well, I had a call from my friend. Rasband is his name. He's now one of the apostles in the church, but he was a general authority there and we have been serving together. He comes over to Sweden. To Sweden.

John Dehlin [00:42:52] Neil Rasband comes to Sweden.

Hans Mattsson [00:42:54] Yes. And we met on a restaurant in downtown Stockholm.

John Dehlin [00:42:59] Just Rasband and you and your brother, right?

Guest [00:43:02] My.

Hans Mattsson [00:43:02] My wife and I and my brother and his wife. And a raspberry.

Guest [00:43:08] Okay.

Hans Mattsson [00:43:09] And then he was very nice, very open minded and we could really talk like friends about my issues. The questions and, and. But there was still was no answers to really the questions. And, and that place we try like one example, we talk about why do we have. I asked, why do we have 50 men that are prophets here and revelators? And we don't have any. No one see anything. We don't reveal anything. And so no prophecy, no revelation. And he said, well, I was there personally when I present him glad of revelation. And I good, tell me. Because I said, my daughter is married to a man. He is Pentecostal. And when we say that, we have a prophet ask, oh, what did the prophet say? And I said, let's go shopping. Well, there's nothing really that reveal like you need a prophet. But he said, well, I was there when President Hinckley said we should build a smaller temple. What?

John Dehlin [00:44:30] He listed that as a revelation?

Hans Mattsson [00:44:32] Yeah. And I said, you know, both you and I being in the business world, we're sitting with councils with high positions and this is a normal way to look how you do business. If it's too expensive to have large temples, you build smaller ones. We don't call that revelations. We call it inspiration then. And we go on business and then.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] Right, Good business.

Hans Mattsson [00:44:59] Yeah, very good business. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:01] Okay.

Hans Mattsson [00:45:01] And then he said, well, before this year is ended, I will send Elder Jensen, who is the head of the historic, and he will have one of the best historicians with him to Meet with you.

John Dehlin [00:45:15] So Rasband promises an intervention from Salt Lake City.

Hans Mattsson [00:45:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:19] Jensen and Turley.

Hans Mattsson [00:45:20] Yeah. And before he left, he didn't have any answers, but he gave his testimony that he know the Mormon spoke was true, that Joseph Smith was a true prophet. This is only true living church and so on, so on. And I was kind of frustrated over there because I thought he was saying that because if you don't warn your neighbor, the sins will be up in your head. So kind of he was not God. Can't blame him for not testify for me. So I had a problem. But he said something very interesting in the end, I also have a brain.

John Dehlin [00:46:01] So he looked, he turned to you and said, I also have a brain.

Hans Mattsson [00:46:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:04] What do you think he meant by that?

Hans Mattsson [00:46:06] I'm still wondering, but I hope it means that he can also think like me. But he's not allowed to say it, but. I know, I don't really know, but.

John Dehlin [00:46:16] Because what I thought of when you told me that story was the comment Elder Holland made when he was being interviewed by PBS where he said, I'm not a dodo, I've read a few books and I went to a pretty good school. And he's basically saying not everyone who's intelligent leaves the church. There are thoughtful, intelligent people who know all these things, but still remain.

Hans Mattsson [00:46:40] I guess that's part of it. Yeah. I'm glad you told me. At least someone having inspiration.

John Dehlin [00:46:48] Okay, so anything between Rasband leaving and the Swedish Rescue. How did you guys hear that they were going to come? So tell us about when you found out that the Swedish Rescue was going to happen.

Hans Mattsson [00:46:59] Can I ask you, do you know anything about this?

Guest 2 [00:47:02] When?

Hans Mattsson [00:47:03] Before the Swedish Rescue.

Guest 2 [00:47:06] So I guess my situation, I was in silo in parallel, so I was studying together with my wife. And then I don't recall the year, but if it was 2009, the rescue was. I think we were doing it quite. So we were doing it hardcore from 2008 on Earth, you know, just me and my wife, we got access via a friend to really some old records, first hand records from the U.S. so we had, you know, an interesting time going.

John Dehlin [00:47:33] So your faith crisis started how?

Guest 2 [00:47:35] Yeah, so my started way back when I was younger, but so I came across things during my mission and made a compromise that I'm going to live my life in the church. But then my wife, she was faithful, so I didn't want to disturb because I brought it up with her several times but she didn't want to hear about it. So I made this compromise and then suddenly, via a friend, she. She got into it. And also by the Proposition eight, that got us attention, we couldn't really explain

John Dehlin [00:48:00] in California in 2008. That's the right timeline.

Guest 2 [00:48:03] Yep, yep. So that. That. That really got us because we couldn't stand for that.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] And during 2008, 2009, 2010, did you know that Hans was having a faith crisis? Did you know about Baringa? Did you know Christina?

Guest 2 [00:48:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:16] So how'd you hear about them?

Guest 2 [00:48:18] Yeah, so Hans used to be my stake president when I grew up in Gothenburg. Yeah. But we heard this rumor about Christina, that she wanted to start her own little ch. A rumor. And we also heard about Hans, that he's. He's losing his mind. And I had an experience when I was going to church and I met Hans in the hallway because I was a Sunday school teacher at that time. And I just met Hans and he just seemed distressed. And I just took. He didn't go into detail, but he just seemed. He wasn't content being in church at that time. So he was basically walking in. In the corridor.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] Same word in Gothenburg.

Guest 2 [00:48:51] No, this was in Stockholm now.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] In Stockholm?

Guest 2 [00:48:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:53] You moved to Stockholm. You live in Stockholm.

Guest 2 [00:48:56] So what happened then was when we were studying on our own then I'm gonna call Hans. So I called Hans up and then I got. Okay, so he's on the. My wife claims she was one calling Hans, so maybe that's probably the truth. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:08] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:49:09] So she called Hans.

John Dehlin [00:49:12] But Hans, who called you, you don't remember? Yeah, he was Eva. Wives are pretty much was. Right.

Guest 2 [00:49:20] So. But in that scenario, we understood that, you know, there were other people that knew what we knew because obviously we found out during our mission. But there came a lot of new stuff when the Internet opened everything. So polyandry was a big thing. I never heard of that before 2008, I think.

John Dehlin [00:49:35] Okay, so at what point did you get joined into this group?

Guest 2 [00:49:39] I guess we were fairly early since we contacted you. So I guess we were at this meeting at your house as well. And I just want to say that when we studied, at least I still studied in a way. I wanted to find out that it was all true. I didn't want to find faults. I was just digging more. There needs to be answer to this. So during this process, we talked to all our friends in the church. Do you know about this? And you know about that? And we're not going to brag here, but I'm not bragging, but quite a few of our friends started getting questions alongside with Us.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] Due to that, we talked to everyone here in Stockholm.

Guest 2 [00:50:12] Yes. And also in Gothenburg. And I mean, Anna is here and Morgan is here. That was due to our information.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] Your missionary work.

Guest 2 [00:50:19] Yeah. So we have a. We have a lot of people on our conscience here going down the. Down the road.

John Dehlin [00:50:24] Okay, so at some point you joined in the questioning.

Guest 2 [00:50:27] Yeah, the weekend, Fairly early, maybe 2008, I think we were. We were co. Writing with you from 2008. So we were also invited to Swedish Rescue when that. So basically Hans enabled that Swedish Rescue and we were invaded alongside with some other people that were, you know, also questioning things.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] So who first found out the. That Turley and Jensen were coming in? The dates. Who was it that first found that out? So, Hans, tell us that story of. Of how it actually rolled out.

Hans Mattsson [00:50:55] The Area Authority, Ingvar Olsson. He. He was calling on a secret meeting

John Dehlin [00:51:04] and he said, hans, there's a secret meeting.

Hans Mattsson [00:51:07] And I said, I can help you because I know all the ones you should call to come. And he said, no, I go through the bishops and they will call the ones that will be on that meeting.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] So he wanted to control who could attend.

Hans Mattsson [00:51:23] Yes. And he sent out a letter to invite all of us to come to this meeting. We didn't call it Swedish Rescue then. We called it the meeting with the professionals of the church historical department. They can answer all the questions.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] So people received a formal written letter in late 2010.

Hans Mattsson [00:51:43] Yes. It must be about October.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] Okay.

Hans Mattsson [00:51:47] Yeah. But I also helped them, but I didn't know about it because we had an extra meeting with Christina, inviting all of us that have questions and were excused to be the voice of the devil and follow his path. So we were there talking about this event and prepare to.

John Dehlin [00:52:12] So did you guys actually get together and plan how you would approach the meeting? Talk about that meeting, the pre meeting. Where was it and who.

Hans Mattsson [00:52:20] Well, we thought that when they come all the way from Salt Lake City to meet us, we thought it was wonderful because now at least we will have answers to our questions because they were historians. They know everything and we know, but they know even more, as we understood. And we like to be organized, so we don't talk about this and talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] So what was your plan going in? What plan did you have?

Hans Mattsson [00:52:50] Now Christina will give you the plan.

John Dehlin [00:52:52] Okay. Okay.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:52:54] Yes. The meeting was in our house just about, I think, a week before the actual Rescue Sweden meeting.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] Were you there, Jonathan?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:53:03] Yeah, you were there? Several of the people.

John Dehlin [00:53:07] Was Puringa there?

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:53:09] Were you there?

John Dehlin [00:53:11] Okay.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:53:12] No, I don't Think. No, I don't think.

John Dehlin [00:53:14] Okay.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:53:14] So in the pre meeting, it was about 10, 15 people there, half women and half men, as I remember it. And the women were all. Oh, they were. We were. It's not true. That's great. But I think the men still hope. Hope that somehow. So I don't. I did. I, I didn't share your hopes anymore that they would give us any answers.

John Dehlin [00:53:37] So the men were hoping that they would give good answers.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:53:39] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] And the women were basically saying this, this proves it's not true.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:53:44] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:44] Okay.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:53:45] Yeah, that's great.

John Dehlin [00:53:45] The women were the pessimists.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:53:47] So we were discussing what questions, what questions were we going to bring up and how we were going to behave. You know, like we're going to be polite, we're not going to be aggressive and things like that. And also the questions that we had, that's. You were there as well, Jonathan. Do you remember anything else?

Inside the Swedish Rescue Meeting

Guest 2 [00:54:04] No, but I think that that basically was the summary. But in retrospect, I think the meeting didn't turn out that great because it was too many questions. You know, we, we covered too much space. So we, we just. It just.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] So you put a big list of questions together and you're thinking there was too many questions.

Guest 2 [00:54:22] And in retrospect.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] Well, we'll talk about the meeting now. Okay, so you got all ready, you got your list of questions. What tone were you going to go into the meeting? What tone did you decide to have during the meeting? A hostile tone? Not a hostile tone.

Guest 2 [00:54:32] No, no. From my perspective, I thought this was a great opportunity. I thought it was a great sign of good faith from the church. They brought actually their chief historian and also brought a general authority and they came genuinely to respond to our questions. That was the. With the spirit. I went into that meeting and I had genuine hopes that I would get some sort of answers that could satisfy me. But most of all because this was the time, every time you brought up this thing with anybody believing in the church, you always got the question back that, are you sure this is really correct? Are you sure? You know, you got some right information? So what I went into, I wanted to have the information validated for that was, I guess, one of my key,

John Dehlin [00:55:10] because we're all primed to think that it's anti Mormon literature. Anything that causes you to doubt that sounds uncomfortable, that makes you feel uncomfortable, that must be Satan. And the material is labeled as anti Mormon literature, so that then it's viewed as dangerous and so you want to leave it alone. So you are just wanting to be validated. Is this stuff legitimate? Are these questions legitimate? Are the historical problems legitimate?

Guest 2 [00:55:35] Yeah. And could there be some good arguments and reasons for why it happened?

John Dehlin [00:55:38] So give us something.

Guest 2 [00:55:39] Yeah. So polyandry, for instance, that was one of my biggest issues. And every time you brought that up with anybody active, you said, no, that's impossible.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] There's no way Joseph Smith married other men's wives.

Guest 2 [00:55:50] There's no way he could marry somebody else already married. There's no way he could send away a missionary and marry his wife while he was away. And when I heard it the first time, it just. That really rocked my world. So, I mean, like, basically for all other issues I came across, I found at least explanation that I could live with. But for that point I just couldn't be satisfied by, you know, there was nothing that really could justify that.

John Dehlin [00:56:15] Okay, so the meeting was held where. Where was the Swedish rescue held? Who wants to.

Guest 2 [00:56:20] It was in the Westerhorninge chapel.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] And that's here in Stockholm?

Guest 2 [00:56:24] Yeah.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [00:56:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:25] Okay. And was it morning?

Guest [00:56:26] Evening?

Guest 2 [00:56:27] Evening.

John Dehlin [00:56:28] Evening. And tell us the setting. So around what time is everyone showing up?

Guest 2 [00:56:33] So I think it was at 7ish or something.

John Dehlin [00:56:35] Hold the mic. Towards your mic.

Guest 2 [00:56:36] It's about 7ish if I'll do it. So it was a surprise. All the people that had questions, we gathered there and we then found out that all the bishops and all the stake presidents that were associated with us. So from my ward, if I was there from a ward, my bishop would be there and my stake president would be there and they would sit in the back and they didn't say anything, but I knew they were there. So that was a surprise.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] How did that feel? To know that you want to have this genuine exchange, but that your bishop and stake president are watching everything you say? What was that like?

Guest 2 [00:57:09] I actually didn't think much. I thought it was positive because then I thought they will also now understand that what we're talking about is actually for real. And I have a small episode around it, because before the meeting I've heard that one of the. One of the highest leaders that still believes he talked to a friend of ours. And I know that my friend told me that he had asked him, you know, what is going to come up on this meeting, because I don't know anything.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] So a lot of the bishops take presidents.

Guest 2 [00:57:38] I don't think they had a clue,

John Dehlin [00:57:39] didn't have the background.

Guest 2 [00:57:40] No. So I thought it was good. Now at least they can. They can understand that we're just not Making things up here.

John Dehlin [00:57:45] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:57:47] But in the aftermath, I get another perspective on why they were there, because they basically. We can go into that later, but

John Dehlin [00:57:53] like ecclesiastical monitors, right? They were watching you.

Guest 2 [00:57:56] They basically wanted to give us an ultimatum at the end.

John Dehlin [00:57:58] Okay, we'll get there. Okay, so who wants to tell us about the. The opening to the meeting and kind of how the meeting started and how it was approached? Who can tell us who's the best to kind of tell us how the meeting started, who conducted and how it progressed? Okay, so how did it open? So you think about how many people are there total?

Hans Mattsson [00:58:22] Well, we reckon that we have about 20 of us.

John Dehlin [00:58:26] And then 20 questioning Swedes.

Hans Mattsson [00:58:28] Yes. And then you had more or less the same from bishops and about 20 bishops and presidents and some other enthusiastic people there, like my brother enthusiasts.

Guest [00:58:43] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:58:45] Jensen and Turley.

Hans Mattsson [00:58:46] I was out there to meet Elder Jensen at the door and hugged him. I said, I'm glad to see you. And I said, well, I'm glad you're here. You probably can help us a lot. I thought the third time, you know, third person like to help me from me have helped me. But anyway, we come in there.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] I wonder what he meant by help us a lot, because you hadn't been able to help Paringa very well.

Hans Mattsson [00:59:09] But he didn't know that.

John Dehlin [00:59:10] He didn't know where you stood.

Hans Mattsson [00:59:12] Well, he know what I stood because I was there. But we had good experience together, 70s, and he knew who I was and what I like to say and why. I said, okay. And he. Yeah, he was a little bit nervous, I guess. So. Yeah. So we were sitting there and Ingvar Olsson, who's the leader of the meeting, who's the area authority, present? Everybody. And we also had the president of the Europe area. Kupiski. Kupiski. And he was there as well. And we took about one hour to present who we are. My name is Hans Mason and I've been in the chair for so many years and so on and so on. And all of those guys were telling me it took so long time. So I tried to interrupt and said, hey, can't we start to ask questions soon?

John Dehlin [01:00:15] So an hour was burned up with everybody introducing themselves.

Hans Mattsson [01:00:19] Is that right?

John Dehlin [01:00:19] An hour was.

Christina (Swedish Rescue attendee) [01:00:20] Was.

John Dehlin [01:00:21] Go ahead, John.

Hans Mattsson [01:00:22] Take and take.

Guest 2 [01:00:23] So one thing was that they. Beside the point that we all introduced ourselves for a very long time. I mean, Elder Jensen took a significant time in the beginning just to set the tone. And he talked about the spirit of the dead.

John Dehlin [01:00:35] Before the introduction.

Guest 2 [01:00:35] Before the introduction.

John Dehlin [01:00:37] Tell us what Jensen said.

Guest 2 [01:00:38] Okay. So he started off introducing. And we're here together to answer question. And then he started, you know, there's two spirits, the spirit of the truth and the spirit of the devil. So he set the tone, you know, that you could either be on that side or that side. And while we approach these issues, we should do it in.

John Dehlin [01:00:54] How did you like that framing of Jensen? Beginning by framing it as you're on the side of the Lord or on the side of the devil.

Guest 2 [01:01:00] I thought it was great. No, no. But it's.

John Dehlin [01:01:06] How did that feel? What did you think?

Guest 2 [01:01:09] Well, I was still at a positive mode, so I didn't think to. But obviously points to the direction that, you know, if you don't agree or if you don't come with the right answer, we would obviously be on the wrong side of the line. But it's just. Yeah, it was. It kind of put a tone of. Not threatening, but, you know, tuning up the volume a little bit or turn up the pressure a little bit. That is serious stuff. And that we have a responsibility to also lean towards the good side, irrespective of what the answers were. You know, we have a personal responsibility to. To see it either in the light of faith or in the light of darkness.

Guest [01:01:45] Yeah. As far as I remember, it was a clear signal. You can't stand the middle ground and ask these questions. You have to choose. You have to go on this side or this side, and this side means you're out and this side you're in.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] How do you like that?

Guest [01:01:56] I mean, for serious people, like all of us. I mean, if you have very serious questions, which almost your life depends on, you don't feel very versatile, very respected. If you are treated that way, I think that's completely the wrong way to do. I just can't understand it. I have to say that because anybody going through this faith crisis, I did it alone for many, many years. Besides, my discussion with my wife was the only person I could talk to. I didn't talk to my children. I didn't talk to anybody else for many, many years. And that takes a long time. That's a very deep thing within you when you go through this faith crisis and then be treated that way. That was ridiculous.