Welcome and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1476a

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is September 14, 2021, I believe, and we are super excited today for a continuation in our series of what we're calling the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis series on Mormon Stories Podcast. So just to give a tiny bit of background, a few years ago, Natasha Helfer and I and my wife Margi were overflowing with feedback from people who. Who needed coaching support. And we didn't have enough slots to be able to help everyone. And frankly, we just wanted to have as many people get the help and support that they needed without even needing to pay any money.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] So we decided to do kind of an altruistic thing, which was to release 70 hours of free coaching for anyone going through a faith crisis. And so we created A podcast at MormonFaithCrisis.com, called the Gift to the Mormon Faith Crisis Podcast and did just that. Released 70 full hours, and that exists today. It's helped so many people, but the only thing that's been really frustrating about it is that no one knew about it. And so what we decided to do once we got Carah Burrell on staff, once we improved our video and our audio and beefed out the Mormon Stories podcast studio, is we decided that we're going to bring back a lot of these topics and bring on a mental health professional or coach each week to provide some content on the Mormon Stories podcast channel to support healing and growth.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] Yes. Yes, we do history and truth claims. Yes, we do epic faith journeys. Yes, we do current events and response videos. But we also want to do content dedicated to healing and growth. So we are lucky enough that my dear wife Margi agreed to come on at least twice a month to share with us some of her wisdom. A couple weeks ago, we had Margi on. Margi, what did we talk about?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:51] A couple weeks ago we talked about grounding during times of overwhelm.

Carah Burrell [00:01:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] And I received a ton of positive feedback about that. And today we are covering, for sure, one of the most highly sought after topics in the whole set of topics for navigating a faith crisis. And that is how to communicate with believing family and friends, and specifically how to tell believing family members or loved ones or friends about a faith crisis. And so welcome back. Margi Dehlin. We're so grateful you would be with us.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:22] Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:24] Yeah. And we also want to welcome our viewing audience. We are streaming to YouTube right now and we want to Incorporate comments and questions from our live viewing audience. We also want to live stream to Facebook, but for some reason, that's not quite working right now, so we will get that working. But to aid us in the moderation of comments to tracking time codes and to be a co participant in the role play and just in the content of this episode, we're so grateful to have Carah Burrell. Hey, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:02:57] Hey, John. Hey, Margi. Thanks for the woo.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:00] Yeah, baby.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] Woo.

Carah Burrell [00:03:02] So fun. Let's talk about traumatizing things.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] Yeah. And, Carrie, you'll be representing our live streaming audience as well, so thank you for doing that. All right, so today is a big topic. We plan on going two hours, and what we hope to have is a lot of dialogue and conversation with our viewing audience. We have also solicited comments and question that have been posted to the Mormon Stories blog. And one thing I just want to say is we're probably. Margi, not going to be able to cover this topic in one session. There's so many people that have written in and expressed kind of private or personal situations or scenarios that probably deserve their own attention.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] There is an overview of kind of a framing that we really want to get to today, but then there's also lots of tools and tips and tricks and kind of details and different types of role play. So I think it's safe to say that we're not going to be able to cover today, but this will be a topic that maybe we cover as part of a series. Do you have anything you want to say about that?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:06] Yeah, only to just add and say maybe we'll look at today like an intro of sorts. An intro to the topic.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:14] A way to get started.

John Dehlin [00:04:15] Yeah, I love that. Okay. And so with that, without any further ado, we also hope to incorporate some visuals. And what we. We hope looks pretty decent is a little PowerPoint presentation that we've put together to help kind of give you a few visuals for what you're experiencing. So without any further ado. Should we jump in, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:35] Let's go.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] Carah, anything I need to check in with you about?

Carah Burrell [00:04:39] No. Everyone in the chat seems excited, and this sounds like very much needed information, so we're all pumped.

John Dehlin [00:04:46] All right, so let's. Let's jump in. All right, so the first thing that I want to introduce today is something that will be familiar to some of you but not familiar to others. I did obtain a PhD in clinical and counseling psychology, and I did that because so many people on Mormon Stories podcast and elsewhere just needed support. And I Wanted to be able to support people as best as I could. And the reason why I'm mentioning that is because the framework that I was trained in is a framework that I think is gonna be really helpful for navigating a faith crisis. So I want to introduce exper.

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy as a Framework

John Dehlin [00:05:21] Acceptance and commitment therapy. Not because we're doing therapy here on the podcast, but because I'm gonna be referring to this over and over and over again, Margi. Coaches under this framework. And frankly, if you are looking for a coach or a therapist to get support in your faith crisis, someone who is familiar with the concepts of acceptance and commitment therapy may be really useful to you. Think of acceptance commitment therapy as just a framework. Kind of a secular Buddhism had a baby with cognitive behavioral therapy.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] They came up with was acceptance and commitment therapy. And we're going to be referring to this map going forward. And there are six basic concepts in acceptance and commitment therapy that we're going to be returning to. The first is acceptance. The second is what I call diffusion, which is holding stories and labels and thoughts and feelings and emotions loosely. There's a heavy focus on.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] On being present in the moment. Not living in the past or the future, but living in the present moment and engaging in mindfulness and awareness of your thoughts and feelings in your journey. And then there's gonna be a really heavy emphasis on values and on committed action or commitment. Living in the space of your values. And that was a really brief introduction, but. But I'm gonna be referring to it a lot. But the first thing that I wanted to do to kind of set up this idea is there's a context for what happens when you lose your faith and then when you're terrified to come out to believing family and friends.

Understanding the Weight of Losing Your Faith

John Dehlin [00:07:05] And I just wanna address that right up front. Cause we can jump into how to do it. But what's more important is to understand the framework of what's happened. So I'm gonna introduce a framework. Is that okay, Margi? Of course, yeah. All right. So this is the framework.

John Dehlin [00:07:21] Mormonism is very much a religion that encourages good behavior. And there's nothing wrong with that. And one of the ways that they encourage good behavior is by kind of stories and myths and role models. And, you know, we're taught from a very young age to read the Book of Mormon. And we are taught, you know, the. That there are good role models and bad role models. And the classic archetypal role model within Mormonism, I think, is Nephi. And I apologize in advance, there's no archetypal positive female role model in Mormonism?

John Dehlin [00:08:04] Margi, tell me if I'm wrong about that. Were you given an archetypal positive female role model within Mormonism? Can you think of one that you modeled your life after? No, you can't. And that's kind of. That says a lot. But, Carah, was there a female role model, that archetypal role model that you were given in Mormonism?

Carah Burrell [00:08:26] Millie from Seven Brides for Seven Brothers?

John Dehlin [00:08:30] I'm taking your joking.

Carah Burrell [00:08:33] Sort of. That was my. In my home, at least. How about a scripturally.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Yeah, like a universal role model, female role model.

Carah Burrell [00:08:40] Emma Smith, Shut up and go along with it. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:08:43] No, like, no. Right. Okay. So, yeah, and so I. I apologize that I'm gonna give a male role model, but I think even women had Nephi, maybe as their role model. Margi, did you ever relate to Nephi at all or not really? That wasn't even someone that you related to?

Margi Dehlin [00:09:02] I think because of the relationship I had with the church and scriptures and kind of things. Remember back to my testimony, and I. I don't know that I wanted to be good, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Yeah. But it wasn't Nephi. How about you, Carah? Did you ever want to be kind of Nephi? Is that even a role model that you were connecting to, not connecting to it?

Carah Burrell [00:09:24] No.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] Okay. All right. Well, many. I think that says something about how the Mormon Church needs to work harder to create positive, archetypal, universal female role models. But many of the. You know, one of the false stereotypes of people who leave the church is that the. They leave because they never believed in the first place, that they just wanted to sin, that they really weren't committed, that they were weak. And I found the opposite to be true with the people that I work with on the podcast, people that we've had interviewing on Mormon stories, people that I've coached. And, Margi, maybe you've experienced this as well.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] These were the people that cared the most. In fact, they lost their faith not because they cared so little, but because. But they lost their faith because they cared so much that they wanted it to be true, that they studied it more than other people, and that they were just really intense in living it. And that can create all sorts of problems. But many of the women and men that I've connected with sort of fall under this paradigm of the Nephi effect, which was that they were the APs on their mission, they were the zone leaders on their mission. They were the Relief Society presidents, they were the sister missionaries that didn't even have to serve a mission, but they were in it to win it.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] They got married early, they got married in the temple. Many of them didn't have sex until they were married. They had kids as soon as they could, and they were serving faithful in all their callings, going to the temple. And what I wanted to sort of really emphasize is from very early on, for many, many of you listeners, your relationship with your parents was based on you being Nephi, you being the good child, you being the obedient one, being the faithful one, and your ego, your sense of self, your sense of efficacy, your confidence in the world. Just the way you moved about in so many instances was that you were the good child.

Identity as the Good Child and What Is at Stake

John Dehlin [00:11:20] You were Nephi. And even if you were kind of that prodigal child who in your teen years goofed up or messed up or caused problems, you probably had some sort of salt on the road to Damascus moment or alma, the younger moment. Again, only male role models there where you got right. You, you returned as the prodigal child and you became the faithful one. And then from then forward again, your parents often rewarded you with kudos and love and affirmations, saying, oh, I'm so glad you're faithful.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] And you developed a connection with your parents or your loved ones that was tied to your faithfulness. And frankly, you got a lot of ego food, you got a lot of affirmation and positive affirmat for your faithfulness and for your righteousness. And within Mormonism, I think that is a key part of our journeys and that is why losing your faith and talking to believing family and friends can be so hard because you actually received food, ego food, support affirmation for your role as being a righteous, faithful one. Now I want to check in first with you, Margi, and then care with you and with the audience to see whether people are even vibing with this point. So, Margi, is this something that you connect with and in your life and or with the people that you coach?

Margi Dehlin [00:12:49] I totally connect with it. And I would even say, you know, you mentioned ego and you mentioned affirmation. I think it's even deeper. I think that's how a lot of us felt love. That's a lot like we had that. That's where the hustle was, where we had to become something to get the love. So it's also a lot, it's, it's more vulnerable than that. It's, it's really deep, right? It's, that's how we felt love. That's how we felt approval. So. And there's a lot we can say about that with regard to like moving into health, but you may not want to go there quite yet.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] Yeah, but you relate to that for sure. Carah, do you relate to that and. Or are any of the listeners and viewers kind of.

Carah Burrell [00:13:36] Yeah, I have two comments on that. And I love how Margi just said, um, that's how you know your parents sometimes that's how you relate to each other. And when you're speaking in love languages, I think a lot of our parents, like my parents love language for me is when they see me bear my testimony in church and I can make my mom cry by my words. And I know that that's how she knows that she succeeded as a parent is when she gets to see me, you know, posting pictures that I just got back from the temple. And all of those things are all baked into why my mom loves me.

Carah Burrell [00:14:03] And so when I tell her I won't be doing the things that are the number one source of love that she has for me and I know that it is really a painful place to break. And you have to develop new love languages or just altogether like you're talking about. The NE HIPAA effect is just kind of disregard that. That's. I'm not going to be that child for you anymore. You're going to have to develop new love languages for me.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] And jumping ahead.

Carah Burrell [00:14:24] I'm so sorry, but you have.

John Dehlin [00:14:25] We're getting there.

Carah Burrell [00:14:26] That is so true. It just. When Margi said that, that's what registered really well with me, is developing a new way in that. In that sense. So I didn't mean to jump ahead, but.

John Dehlin [00:14:36] No, no, that's fine. So were you the good?

Carah Burrell [00:14:39] Were never the good until only when you first have. Because I was the youngest of five and I was already a smart ass my entire life. So I was already told my mom my. If you want to label a child, I would have been labeled like wild child is what my mom always told me. I was always the one that was like being too rowdy and like, oh, I'm worried about Carah. I'm always. She's a. I always knew that my mom was worried about me. So then when you become a teenager, the way that you undo that is the one way you can be performative is at church.

Carah Burrell [00:15:04] And so that's where you take on a new identity of like, my mom always thought I was this way. Well, I'm going to show her up. I'm going to show her that I can be Laurel's presence president. I can show her I can get married in the temple. I'll show. She thinks, I'm gonna be this. Oh, I'm gonna be this. And you kind of have to work out how much of it is your own genuine belief and how much of it is performative for your parents. And then years later, when you kind of break down, this isn't working for me. I'm having all this cognitive dissonance. Like, you actually have to really shuffle between how much of this was performative, how much is it my own.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] So when you got married in the temple, you know, how did that make your parents feel, Right? Did you feel like. Did you feel like you were, you know, being on that path that your parents always wanted you to be? And did your parents reinforce that?

Carah Burrell [00:15:45] Yeah, and yes and no. Because in my Mormon Stories episode, I talk about how I had just had this big breakdown with my mom, and she had, like, read my journal, and she had tried to drag me to the bishop to repent. And so I had to make it very clear that I'm not doing this for you, Mom. I'm doing this because I always wanted to get married in the temple to a worthy priesthood holder, you know, So I had to make that more, like, explicitly clear to her that I am actually choosing this for myself now. And you can say there's a lot of conditioning my entire life that actually went into why I chose it.

Carah Burrell [00:16:13] But having those at 19 years old, those are really hard conversations to have with your mom about the things that you're doing in their religion. It's hard to tease out those different things. But of course, they're super proud, and they cry on your wedding day because you, yay. You chose what they wanted you to choose, you know?

John Dehlin [00:16:26] Yeah. And. Yeah. Thank you, Carah. And so whether you were always the good child, maybe like me and maybe like Margi a bit, or you were kind of the wild child of the prodigal child, maybe a little bit more like Carah, once you reach adulthood, if you go on your mission, if you get married in the temple, if you start having kids, you're kind of on the path that makes your parents proud. And what I think we're kind of highlight is that there really is an element of conditional love within. And I'm not just going to say not just Mormonism, but probably all parenting in or out of religion.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] There's an element where parents try and imbue in kids a certain set of standards or morals or values, and then the kids try and make their parents proud, but it definitely exists in Mormonism. Within spades. Margi, you look like you were not sure about that.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:13] This is what I look like when I'm thinking over what you're saying. That's what I was doing.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] Okay, okay. Yeah. But I just want to introduce this idea of most of us wanted to be Nephi at some point, and most of us sort of learned to sort of depend on, for our ego, for our sense of happiness, for our sense of health, feedback from our parents that we're good, that we're the good child, that we make them happy, and that this becomes our role.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] So when we then lose our faith and feel terror about it, what is really going on is that we're recognizing. And you guys can check with me and tell me feel this way. You're recognizing internally two things, that, number one, you're about to disappoint your parents or your siblings or your children or your loved ones because all of a sudden they are going to see you fall from grace.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] And the extent to which your identity, your self confidence, how you view the world was dependent on being Nephi to everyone, was dependent on making everyone feel secure and happy that you were a great person. You are now all of a sudden terrified that you are about to fall from grace and no longer be viewed.

John Dehlin [00:18:32] And number one, disappoint them for your fall from grace. And then number two, you are no longer going to get the ego food of being Nephi. So many of us is like, I was Elders Quorum president, I was in the bishopric, I was AP on my mission, I served a mission, I got married in the temple. We ourselves, internally became dependent on other people's approval. That's how conditional love works. You're pleasing somebody else to make them feel happy and secure and healthy, almost like you're telling your parents, you did a good job as parents because I did all the things you wanted me to be.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] And now I'm Nephi. There's this unhealthy, codependent relationship where you're giving your parents or loved ones ego food that you're on the right path and that they did a good job and that they can feel so comfortable in the world. But then you got mutually reinforced ego food for yourself and confidence that you were a good child. And that is kind of the unhealthy, codependent, conditional love paradigm that underlies our terror in coming out to believing family and friends once we lose our faith. Now, Carrie, you're nodding your head. Why is that?

Carah Burrell [00:19:45] Yeah, Yeah. I think that just is a really good summary of kind of what I was trying to explain before about the ego food and that you're kind of. Yeah. What is the wording you just used where you're kind of in a mutually beneficial, unhealthy.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] I mean, it's, it's, it's as normal as the human experience and it's an unhealthy, codependent relationship.

Carah Burrell [00:20:03] Yeah. It just reminds me of like basic tribalism 101 in like, this is the tribe. And if you want to conform and you want your needs to be met, whether it's a roof over your head and food and college and everything else that goes into something you're going to need to conform to, this is the tribe that your family's kind of in. And that's what I think has grown a lot of like humanity, honestly. But then when you need to break out of it, if it threatens your relationships and threatens, you know, grandparents not wanting to, kids not seeing their grandkids and just all these inner family dynamics, if we can find a way to navigate when you need to break away from the tribe that raised you, how to do that in the healthiest ways possible, which we're obviously going to get into.

Carah Burrell [00:20:42] Um, and if you wouldn't mind, I'm going to read just a quick comment that Shannon wrote. She said maybe it's a good thing that the church didn't have any female role models that forced us women to look outside of Mormonism, which is part of my shelf breaking, because isn't that interesting? Because a lot of those female role models you might look at, look to, those are not going to be well behaved women necessarily. So you're going to kind of get better mentorship.

John Dehlin [00:21:03] That's a good point. Margi, did you want to add something?

Margi Dehlin [00:21:06] Oh, I was going to add because when you look at we named our children after people and who I named in particular, like our girls, you know, it was like revolutionary. Yeah, it was Clara Barton. Clara's named after Clara Barton, who was the founder of the Red Cross, or Maya Angelou from Maya. So, yeah, it's very true.

John Dehlin [00:21:29] I love it. Okay, so I'm going to take some time just to show and read a couple comments because there's a lot of really good comments coming in and I'm just going to highlight a few. So Bobby England writes, I was the third born son. Two older brothers were somewhat wayward. I was always the obedient one. Total Nephi effect. I love that. Amber writes, I've been out for 10 years, but my parents and I haven't been able to have the conversation yet. I'm scared they won't fully accept it. They won't listen to my perspective. And that's just every so many people. I cannot count on the roles of the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:22:07] How many people stay active, stay engaged just because they're terrified that their parents or their loved ones or their co workers are going to find out that they're in faith crisis? So you are not alone if you are still active in the Mormon. And we don't care if you're active or not. We support Mormon Church activity. We support people that need or want to leave for health reasons. But I just, I want you guys to know that if you are currently staying in the church, feeling trapped because you're terrified to tell your family or loved ones that you've lost your faith, you are not alone.

John Dehlin [00:22:40] There are literally probably hundreds of thousands of you in the Mormon Church today. So Amber, I just wanna say you're not alone. Amber also writes, you know, obedience meant love in your family. I wanna give a shout out to Anthony Miller. Anthony Miller has been on Mormon Stories podcast before and he is, I hope, going to be a part of this series on the gift of the Mormon faith. CR super wise human.

John Dehlin [00:23:04] Anthony, thanks for following and joining us today. Anthony writes, absolutely. My sense of personal and moral identity was completely enmeshed with the forms of my belief, my roles and callings, and my Nephi effect manifestations of growth and faithfulness. So that's just beautiful. And we just love how many people are commenting. Katie Modoff writes, my parents associate being a good person with being religious. I hate disappointing them. Part of the reason I like sharing these comments is because it lets our listeners know they're not alone. And I just wanna encourage you if you can go to the live stream now or later and you can actually read through these comments on YouTube and share your feedback, read other people and just realize that you're not alone.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] Okay. You know, Taylor writes that confidence feels good when there is a million kids. He's talking about how, how he derived lots of confidence from being faithful to Jodas writes, I'm still codependent. I left almost three decades ago. There are just so many amazing comments here. So anyway, what I want to do now is jump to the next slide. We're going to go back to the acceptance commitment therapy slide. And what you'll notice sort of at, let's just say seven o', clock, seven or eight o' clock on the slide is this notion of diffusion.

Defusion: Holding Labels and Stories Loosely

John Dehlin [00:24:34] And diffusion is a really important concept both within Buddhism but also within acceptance and commitment therapy. And what diffusion relates to is how interwoven we get with labels, with roles, with stories, with our thoughts and our emotions. And it's basically if you study secular Buddhism at all. And I want to recommend the Secular Buddhism podcast, Sarah, if you'll add, Carah, if you'll add that to the notes for this, I'll tell Sarah, if you'll notice, yeah, secular Buddhism is a great way to learn about this, but basically the idea is that labels and stories and emotions and thoughts and feelings, they all are necessary, but they all can be chains that bind us.

John Dehlin [00:25:24] And one of the things you'll learn from the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Retreat, which we'll also add in our show notes, we talk there in mental health section about how negative labels can be kind of lead chains, but positive labels can be what Noah Roshetta refers to as gold chains or what secular Buddhism refers to as gold chains. And it turns out that Being Nephi can be a golden chain.

John Dehlin [00:25:49] In other words, it's a chain that limits and binds you. And Mark, you're nodding about that. Can you just tell us how you're resonating or vibing with this idea that Being Nephi can be a golden chain? Why are you nodding about that? Well, someone who was the good girl, maybe a little in your family, I

Margi Dehlin [00:26:07] think an insight that I have around that is being in that position, you are constantly looking outward for who you are. And so I, I don't think it's a mistake that so many people come to us for help coaching to our retreats who resonate with the knee, being the Nephi, because I think it keeps you disconnected from yourself. You're basically looking to the other, your parent, to tell you who you are. And so in that way, it's surely a golden chain because it keeps you, it keeps you on a path and it keeps you from disconnecting from yourself. You're only connecting to either what, what you need to obey at the moment, how you need to sort of be approved of in the moment.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:01] And you're always striving, you're never resting. You can never be in that situation. You're always doing. It's always about actively. And that is exhausting. And most people burn out or have some type of. And they come literally saying, I don't know who I am.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] Exactly. I love that. That's exactly what was coming to my mind. When you are trying to fill a role for somebody else, even if it's the good role, it's exhausting. And there's, there's is always. I'm going to say this directly to the camera, your desire, your need, your dependence on being. Nephi has come at the cost of your own self discovery, your own self knowledge, and it's likely come at the cost of your own mental health and wellbeing. You probably have had high anxiety, you probably have suffered from scrupulosity or perfectionism. You're on this treadmill of worthiness. And one of the big downsides to the, to this codependent, you know, Nephi effect sort of situation is you've spent your life hustling for approval and love of other people.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] And that's spending time in your life not necessarily doing what's meaningful to you, what's part of your values, what brings you healing and joy and growth. It's basically living someone else's script for you. Now, I'm not saying Mormon church is bad. I'm not saying religion's bad. This is all part of the kind of Richard Rohr second half of life awakening that's going to happen. No matter what tradition you are raised in, or even if you're raised as a good atheist or good agnostic, you're still probably going to disappoint your parents if you like, start believing all of a sudden because atheism or agnosticism didn't work for you.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] Now, Carah, I saw you nodding really quick. I just want to check in with you either on the comments or just with what you were nodding about, because I want to just get your feedback on that. Or were you vibing with that idea?

Carah Burrell [00:29:03] Just vibing across the board on that.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:05] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:29:06] I don't have a whole lot to add.

John Dehlin [00:29:07] Okay, that's fine.

Carah Burrell [00:29:08] Other than I wanted to read, I'm so. I cannot pronounce her name. Akism. That's not. I'm sorry, I can't do it. It's a. It's like a European looking name. Uh, but vibing along with what I was saying earlier, they said from an evolutionary perspective, the fear of being shunned is so powerful because of hundreds of thousands of years. We were essentially doomed without the protection of the tribe. And I. When you're talking about anxiety and talking about conformity and all of these things. I mentioned this again in my Mormon Stories interview that when we were leaving Mormonism and you're trying to search for meaning and things, the very first place that I found a lot of peace was in study evolutionary biology and understanding the reasons why things are kind of baked into my programming.

Carah Burrell [00:29:48] And if I don't acknowledge that and I am consistently trying to fight against it instead of working with it. Then I'm just in a place of like pain and frustration. So I really encourage people to analyze why they're feeling this anxiety. What is it from. Had it gave us an evolutionary advantage maybe that we are trying to work against now by trying to break out of this mold, this pre written script for us that could be just baked into our, our programming over hundreds of thousands of years potentially.

Carah Burrell [00:30:16] And to recognize that like again like you're not alone, you're not crazy. These things are, they're very difficult to break out of. And so give yourself patience and hope that there are other people in all different walks of life, not just Mormonism going through the same thing and that you're not crazy.

John Dehlin [00:30:30] Yeah, I think. Thank you, Carah. I think it's Akeem and Akeem Ach I M. If you want to type in how to phonetically pronounce your name, we'll try and get it right. But thank you, Akeem, for that comment. Thanks for all the comments. Margi, did you want to add something to that?

Margi Dehlin [00:30:46] I was just thinking of another kind of thing that came up for me in looking at parenting, you know, at this point in which you're. A lot of times our pain becomes a seed for a new way of being. So if we look at this also, I'm looking at children being asked to show up to fill the needs of parents. That's really what this whole structure does. It's sort of like children learning how to make their parents feel happy, children learning and then following in line to have their parents feel proud, to feel like they've done a good job, to feel like. And it's only been in the last probably five years, as we've started reparenting more conscious parenting, realizing how incredibly insidious that is, how unhealthy.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:41] And that is another takeaway from sort of the Nephi and the, the counter of being layman and Lemuel of this structure where we as children and this will come up today, this is why I'm bringing it up. Because once you start having difficult conversations with your parents, oftentimes children start feeling like they need to take care of, of their parents, that they need to actually, even though they're suffering the child, even though the child needs help and understanding that they start to be in that role of again needing and they may not understand why. And this is why. It's because we've grown up on some level showing up to sort of Cater our personalities, cater who we are, cater what we want in life so that our parents feel happy.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:33] And that's deeply problematic.

John Dehlin [00:32:35] Yeah, it. It. I've come to feel like it borders on abuse for a parent to pressure a kid to feed the needs of the parent I used to think I want to be. I want my kids to make me proud. I want my kids to live the life that I want to live. And if I'm feeling all sorts of emotions, my kids need to have, help take care of and. Or help manage or alleviate or assuage my emotional needs or frankly, traumas or inadequacies. And part of, you know, what you guys all need to understand as parents, but also, if you have parents that you're afraid to talk to, is that it is inappropriate for an adult parent to look to their kids to.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] To feed their emotional needs, to manage their emotional needs, and to take care of their emotional needs. Literally, being a parent means caring about your kids enough to just want their own fulfillment and development and putting your own emotional needs aside. And that's something we get so wrong in Mormonism. And so I need you to understand that now, because as you're terrified to talk to your parents, you need to understand that it's wrong for them to be putting that on you. And so you need to understand that, and it'll help you in your future as you raise your own kids to learn to not do that.

John Dehlin [00:33:58] And I'm getting a big nod from Margi because you. That's part of the whole conscious parenting thing. And I just want to ask Carah if you'll add Margi and I on the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast. @MormonFaithCrisis.com we have an episode or two on conscious parenting. If you want to understand more about conscious parenting, we'll put a link to that in the show notes. But going back to acceptance, commitment therapy, this idea of diffusion, if I just had to summarize it, it's a really awkward term. But what it means is when you think of diffusion, I want you to think of holding labels loosely, holding stories loosely, holding emotions loosely, learning to separate you from the labels.

John Dehlin [00:34:42] The good child, the bad child, the parent, the son, the good son, the good daughter, you know, apostate, faithful, learning to hold stories loosely, labels loosely, relationships loosely. And that is its own lifetime worth of mental health management and meditation and mindfulness and psychological practice. But you have to at least understand these labels and stories so that then you can start observing them and holding them at a distance, because the Idea is to break those chains. You want to break the chain of being the Nephi. You want to break it not because you don't want to be a good person, but because that chain of being your mommy and daddy's faithful little girl or boy is limiting your growth, it's limiting your health, it's probably negatively affecting your mental health and your physical wellbeing and limiting the potential of what you can be.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] So you want to break it. Okay, and so now I want to sort of take you to the next part of. And this is probably the most difficult of all parts of this conversation. The next part of this conversation is learning to accept the reality of conditional love. What do I mean by that? If we return to the ACT model, what you'll see is that at, let's just say 10 or 11 o' clock on the ACT model is the idea of acceptance. If you study Buddhism, you will know that acceptance is the foundation of Buddhism. Buddhism starts with the premise that life is suffering. Now, why would any effective, successful world religion start with the idea that life is suffering?

Suffering, Relationships, and the Costs of Coming Out

John Dehlin [00:36:38] It's because that is the reality. It's not that all life is suffering. It's not that all relationships are only suffering. But there's no way to avoid suffering in life. And ironically, and we can talk about this in future episodes, the more you try to avoid suffering, the more suffering you probably often cause yourself. So what is, you know, the example that we often give is the pink elephant. You know, try not to think of the pink elephant. Elephant. You're going to think about it, you know, 50 times in a minute. Try not to have sexual thoughts. You're going to think you're going to sexualize shoulders, you're going to sexualize hymns, you're going to sexualize every part of your Mormon experience.

John Dehlin [00:37:21] Trying not to have sexual thoughts. And I'm going to just say it right here, trying to avoid the pain of disappointing your parents, trying to avoid your downfall as Nephi. No longer being Nephi, as becoming Laman and Lemuel, trying to avoid that is likely going to cause you more suffering.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] And so as you're contemplating this is just one of the most important things I could say. As you're contemplating talking to believing family and friends, your parents, etc, about losing your faith, you're gonna want to be thinking about, how do I do this in a way to where I can stay Nephi? I wanna keep being Nephi and come out to them. And so one of the ways that we screw up is we immediately try and come out and Couple the coming out with, here's all the reasons why. It's not because I'm bad, it's not because I'm immoral, it's not because I wanna sin.

John Dehlin [00:38:21] I'm still a good person. So it's because of Book of Abraham, it's because of Joseph Smith and his polygamy and polyandry. It's because of, you know, the, the seer stone and the hat and the kinderhook plates. And you want in LGBT stuff, you want to sort of come out in a way that couples justifications so that you can not have to accept that you are about to be downgraded in the eyes of not just your parents, but your siblings, your children, your ward members, your friends and everybody.

John Dehlin [00:38:54] And what I'm going to say is that frenetic, frantic attempt to maintain the role of Nephi, to stay as Nephi in everybody's eyes, is likely doomed to failure. But what's worse is it's likely to increase your suffering because what you're going to do is create in them the backfire effect. You're going to make them terrified that you're not safe, that you're trying to change their faith faith, that you're trying to pressure them to follow your path. And you're going to make them think less of you. You're going to fulfill the stereotype of being the angry ex Mormon missionary that's trying to deconvert everybody. And you're going to make them not want to let you be around them.

John Dehlin [00:39:38] You're going to make them not want to let you be around their children, other siblings, ward members, and you're going to make your bishop or stake president want to excommunicate you. So what I'm trying to say is non acceptance of falling from grace as Nephi will be the source of pain and discomfort. And the alternative to that is accepting.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] This is the hardest, one of the hardest things I'm going to tell you today. We're going to tell you, accepting that you have fallen or will fall from grace and will no longer be Daddy's good little girl, will no longer be Mommy's little Nepha, will no longer be the ward's, you know, faithful priesthood leader or Relief Society president, that your mission president will now look down on you as a disappointment, accepting that reality now is actually likely your gateway to healing and growth. And that is one of the most counterintuitive and super hard things to understand about communicating with believing family and friends. Now, I'm going to pause for a second and first I'm asked, Margi, what's coming up for you? When I, when I say that, do you agree? Do you disagree? What are you thinking?

Margi Dehlin [00:40:54] I totally agree. I agree. I feel like within, as in so many things in life, in this, in this particular situation, that the only way through is through. And when you start kind of, of taking those steps to go through, that is when you actually have the chance for liberation. Liberation from approval, liberation in the sense that you know yourself and you're connected to yourself and you matter to yourself, which up to that point you matter, you keep trying to matter to your parents, you know, and so I, I think it's just, it, it's a beautiful thing. And I would just say the other part of that is there are pieces that are painful in that suffering.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:46] There are things in suffering that change the way we live. They change the way we relate. And some of those pieces in my suffering, I think in our suffering had us realize that, you know, some of the healing that maybe we wanted to do with our parents or with some of the relationships we had, there were limitations there. We maybe couldn't do all that work ourselves. But when you have experiences where you suffer in parent child relationship, sometimes the only healing you have is with your own children is that marker or what it felt like.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:28] You remember that pain of being misunderstood or not seen or not valued for your courage or not, you know, and then it changes the way you show up for your children. And that's where the healing for you can happen, is in that relationship.

John Dehlin [00:42:45] So let me tell you, let me see if I understand what you're saying. What you're saying is, yes, we have to accept that we may be an eternal disappointment in the eyes of our parents or loved ones. I always like to say that sometimes a post Mormon can cure cancer or win the Nobel Peace Prize, and this is in all high demand religions. And they'll still likely be an eternal disappointment to their parents. And it's not because their parents are evil. It's because the parents have been taught this plan of happiness that's actually sad heaven, where if any one person doesn't reach celestial kingdom, then the whole family's missing Ms.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] Empty Chairs. They're, they're missing somebody. So Mormon parents and family members and loved ones come by this honestly, but they're just, there's no changing the fact that you've broken the eternal circle of family for them in sad Mormon heaven. And so you just have to accept that. But what you're saying is, you know, we titled the Podcast or the series the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. What I hear you saying, Margi, is one of the huge gifts is even though you have to accept, accept that and there may be grieving and mourning that comes along with disappointing your parents or other loved ones, one of the huge gifts is you won't be the cycle, the dysfunctional, broken cycle of toxic, codependent, unhealthy parenting relationships will stop with you and you won't be passing on that toxicity to your children. Is that. Is that what you're saying?

Margi Dehlin [00:44:12] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] That's beautiful. I love that.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:14] That.

John Dehlin [00:44:14] Thank you for sharing that, Carah. I'm seeing you nod and you're also monitoring the comments, any feedback from you personally and anything you want to share from the listeners or viewers.

Carah Burrell [00:44:24] The comments are really, really active and people are really connecting with a lot of these things. It is the number one most painful, like, deeply painful, physically wounding, mentally exhausting part of leaving the church is how to figure out how to communicate. It feels like now all of a sudden you. You don't have the verbiage, you don't have the language to speak in English to your parents anymore. Suddenly you're speaking, like German or.

Carah Burrell [00:44:46] And you're like. And I always, I think John says this too, you know, going by the motto of like, less is more, that you don't need to always be talking about every single thing that's on your mind. Like, again with the Nephi effect. If you only knew about the Book of Abraham or the Book of Mormon, you'd be on my side. And that is just not advantageous. They're not in a place to hear that. And it's, it's. Sometimes it comes down to like, okay, if you're speaking one language, I'm speaking another one. The only thing we need to communicate is about the fact that I'm not going to be going to that church anymore.

Carah Burrell [00:45:12] That's just the basics of the conversation is I'm no longer that. The reasons why everything else that takes language that I don't have yet, that you wouldn't even be able to listen and understand yet. And we are going to have to meet at that place when we can hold space for one another, that we're on different paths. But that's usually not going to be in the first year or two or decade or whatever it is, depending on the family. Right. So that's the first thing on my mind. And then I am reminded of when Leah was here, when Leah Young was here, and, and she said one of the Most beautiful things is how difficult it is to hold space for somebody who's not holding space for you, that you're able to see them as the product of their conditioning and they're not seeing anything good in you.

Carah Burrell [00:45:49] They are just seeing you in a fall from grace and being okay with that, being okay that they're not in a space to listen to you and understand why you're doing the things you are doing. And just sitting with that and being comfortable with it while still having love, unconditional love back. For them, seeing them is the process, product of their decades of being grown up, growing up in the church, having maybe pioneer heritage. That is such a difficult thing to do. But if you can get to that, like, how do you ever just, you know that feeling when you get to that place and you're like, I have so much love for my family, for humanity, for what the church gave them and for what it gave me, and I can put that in its own little box and I'm going to be completely fine and okay that I've disappointed them, but I am an adult.

Carah Burrell [00:46:29] I've taken the good lessons and I'm moving on with it now. And, and whether or not they respect that, it's going to be irrelevant because they don't have the language to understand me. And I'm just going to move on from it. And in real terms, I just wanted to add that, like, I, sometimes I'll test myself and see how comfortable I feel. Remember we were talking about grounding with checking in, you know, as I'll do things when my family come over that I normally wouldn't do, but I know to my core are not sinful things. And we're having a big family party over July 24, and I poured myself a mixed drink in my house.

Carah Burrell [00:47:00] It wasn't my family's house, it was my house house. And they saw that there's a bottle of liquor on the. That is a very normal, not Mormon thing to do is to drink at a family party, you know, and it's beautiful. And of, and I, I, I was like, okay, I know that my family's gonna see that out there. And I know they're gonna go in the car ride home and they're going to be talking about it and they're going to be whispering with each other. Am I okay with that? Yeah, I'm okay with that. Because I know that there's, I know to my core there's nothing wrong with this.

Carah Burrell [00:47:24] I'm not getting drunk in front of my family or my Kids, I'm doing completely normal, adult thing right now. Now. And I'm gonna let that be their problem for now, and I'm gonna separate their confusion for, like, alcoholism and, like, what does this mean for Carah Now I'm gonna let them think that on their own, and I'm sorry that they think that, but I'm gonna be living a very normal, adult postmorm in life, separating myself from their anxieties and their fears.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:48] It's like, let's applaud for. That's healthy differentiation.

John Dehlin [00:47:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:53] And that, honestly, there is a lot of grief work, I think, in that. That grief work has to happen for us to get to that place. And also, on a level, showing up for ourselves with those things we always relied on our parents for. And that's reparenting, which is something different. But this. That is a crucial, crucial part of getting to that place. Leah describes where you're going to show up in a way that the other person can't show up. And the superpower that allows you to do that is, I've got me. I've got me. I don't need you to get me, because I've got me.

John Dehlin [00:48:29] Yeah, I love that. And we're gonna. We're gonna come back to that. We're gonna come back to. I just want to do two things. First of all, I want to at least Highlight One comment. J.C. jorgensen writes, I'm watching a few minutes behind, but this is. So this is putting all of my inner turmoil into language that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:48:50] And I'm so grateful that people are finding that. I also. So there was another comment earlier on about somebody that's never been Mormon, and they're writing that even though they've never been Mormon, that this conversation is helping them also put things into context. I also want to shout out to those who are donating through super chat. YouTube has a feature where if you want to financially support this program, we give this away for free. But we want to be able to pay people like Carah and Margi and Leah, Natasha and others who help out with this type of stuff. And so. So we want to thank Mark Fuentes for his Super Chat donation.

John Dehlin [00:49:26] And if any of you on the YouTube stream want to support us, we just always appreciate that. Okay. So going back to this idea of acceptance, you know, that's one of the hardest things you have to do is accept that you are going to be a disappointment. And so I've got this idea of unbecoming Nephi. You have to just take off the Nephi and discard the Nephi. And the alternative to that is learning to accept the reality of conditional love. So this is a two part thing that we're kind of highlighting as the next step, kind of in the time codes or in the flow of this conversation is you have to just, just meditate and do daily meditations on the fact that I'm no longer Nephi, I'm no longer Nephi.

John Dehlin [00:50:18] I'm no longer daddy's little good little girl. I'm no longer that perfect person. You know, there's that line in the Frozen song, you know, do you guys remember the line, maybe some of you listeners, where you're kind of letting go of the good girl, that perfect girl is gone. That's the line from Frozen, the Frozen song. Let it go. There it is, actually can be refreshing to let go of that perfect good or boy. But it's hard. And so acceptance means learning to accept the reality of letting go of being that perfect girl or letting go of being Nephi.

John Dehlin [00:50:57] And then accepting the fact that you now will become a disappointment to many people. And then recognizing, and this is just really so really hard, is realizing that there's a good chance that your relationship with your parents or your relationship with your kids or your relationship with your bishop or your mission president or your good friends or your siblings was based on conditional love.

John Dehlin [00:51:22] And we all at our core want to believe that our parents loved us or love us unconditionally, or that our spouse loves us unconditionally, or that our children love us unconditionally. And that sometimes is true. And this will be a. We talk about, you know, Christ talked about sifting the wheat from the tares. Coming out as a non believer will kind of be a sifting. You'll find out which relationships were authentic and real and you'll find out which ones were based on conditional love. And that is going to be hard. That is going to be its own death. You will have multiple cuts, paper cuts or lacerations when you discover which relationships were based on conditional love.

John Dehlin [00:52:07] And there's a bitterness to that, there's a sadness to that. You'll have to grief to grieve. And that will leave some holes inside of you. But there's also some gifts even in that. And so Margi, I'm going to ask you, I'm going to throw this question to you.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] What in the world. Let's just say you, your parents are now you're an eternal disappointment to your parents or you lose siblings that no longer want you in their life. Or you lose a spouse who divorces you because they no longer want you to be in the marriage. Or you lose kids that are ostracized from you now because your loss of faith or friends or your mission president now is disappointed in you. What in the world can be the gifts of the loss of seeing those relationships for what they are? Because for many of you, you, it's going to be months or years of suffering as you realize that you've lost or downgraded relationships. What is the bright side to that? There's a softball for you, Margi. What's the bright side?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:10] Well, I don't know that it's going to feel like a bright side for some time, but I do feel like for me, some of that. I always talk about it like the clearing of the room, like my room of people kind of cleared out out during a certain point in time. But what that allows you to do if you do grieve and if you do give yourself time to feel the loss of those relationships, is you'll process actually what you miss, what you desired, what you had hoped for.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:47] And those things will point you forward to relationships. You'll know what you're looking for, you know, and I think it kind of. It serves as a driver forward. So I always say my room cleared quite a bit, but sometimes there's a clarifier in that. And then there can also be a real intentionality around who do I want in that room, who's welcome in my room? Not just people who were born and think that, you know, they should have access to me, but this, it really can be a gift to my children. Always talk about it like chosen family. Like to choose to have this power of choosing who you want to surround yourself with and then to feel and create and practice unconditional love and respect and regard in sort of your own.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:45] Your own realm of being. That's been one of the most beautiful parts. It took time. It took a lot of time to sort of slowly cultivate that. But I really feel like I'm in a place in my life now where I just have a lot of good love. And when you have that good love that you know what you're looking for and the things that are important to you when you have it, it's like no other. And when you look back and you look at, you know, you have this sense of acceptance for what people were offering and their own level of unconsciousness. It's not on purpose, but you're like, wow, love is large.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:30] Love is really huge. And yeah, maybe mistaking some of the love from before, it just can blow your mind. It can blow your mind a bit.

John Dehlin [00:55:42] So I'm hearing that it can tell me if I'm summarizing this right. I think what I hear you saying is clearing out, you know, and some relationships will be lost, others will be downgraded to lower levels of intimacy, and we'll talk about that. But that will create holes. But that allows you to then fill the holes with healthier relationships that can be more edifying and meaningful. Is that part of what I just heard?

Margi Dehlin [00:56:07] Yes. And the process of loss can clarify to you what matters most in intimacy and loving relationships in your life. And that's priceless to. To have a sense for what you need, what you value, and what love feels like when you're loved. Well, I mean, that. That's a gift. Like, for me, that's been worth it.

John Dehlin [00:56:32] I love it. What do you want to add, Carah, or what. What are you?

Carah Burrell [00:56:35] The best job in the entire world. For many reasons, but one is I get to hear Margi's wise wisdom and words coming straight into my ear holes through these headphones, like I'm not missing a word. So I love how you said that things that were more unconscious that the. The way that you love the way that people love you. In Mormonism, it's so prescribed in a lot of ways of who you can love and to what degree. But don't show empathy too much. And this is your eternal family here. And, and how you're talking about, like, choosing your own new family, set on. On a new, new values.

Carah Burrell [00:57:06] And I know that that is the scariest thing. There's nothing scarier than forging new pathways in your brain and going out into uncharted waters in that way. But I can say that, like, as you were describing, that I'm putting myself back maybe two years ago when I went through those things that, you know, it's equal, it's weighty, it's heavy, it's. It's difficult. You feel like your life is finally on your own terms, but then, yeah, your life is finally on your own terms. Like it's. It's this equal part of, like this yin and yang that is so painful but so rewarding. And like you're talking about.

Carah Burrell [00:57:39] Yeah, choosing your own family, choosing your own values. Yeah. I especially love that you're going from an unconscious state into a more conscious one. You can be a lot more intentional. And I always like to say that. I think. I think Mormons, they genuinely know that they're is even if they're trying to hold tight to the, the churches like LGBTQ type doctrine around people. I think a lot of Mormons know that there are way too many people that don't fit within that box and those parameters within, within the church. And the second that they break out of it, they go, oh, this is a lot more complicated than I thought it was.

Carah Burrell [00:58:12] Oh, there's not just these two genders. There's not just these two prescribed, perfect ways of expressing sexuality within this context that was written, you know, ages ago. People are free to love, love other people and be involved in, you know, going to their friends, gay weddings or just. There's so many areas where you can just love openly and express the love you have for different types of people, different races of different cultures of people. You don't feel held back anymore. So there's just a whole wide world open to you of receiving love and giving love.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:45] That's right. So beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:58:47] I love it.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:48] Love is large.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] All right, and listeners, please, please feel free to give comments or questions and we'll have Carah maybe convey some of those also during this conversation. As as they go, I just created a summary slide now. The gifts of telling loved ones about your faith crisis. So so many of you are like, should I do it? When should I do it? How should I do it? What I've summarized from what we've talked about so far is the gifts of telling loved ones about your faith crisis are it can lead to relief and better mental health.

Gifts and Potential Growth From Coming Out

John Dehlin [00:59:18] Because being Nephi or daddy's perfect little girl can be exhausting. It can be draining. It can really affect your mental health, your physical health, sometimes even chronic fatigue or autoimmune diseases can come from just the unhealthy cortisol and chemicals streaming through your veins. As you're basically living an inauthentic life and doing a bunch of things that aren't healthy for you for a long, long period of time. So breaking those golden or lead chains, it helps give you relief and better mental health. It helps you see relationships for what they are, as painful as that may be. To find out that relationships were sometimes very conditional or only conditional.

John Dehlin [01:00:03] At least you get to now live in reality and see the relationships for what they are. You can replace the lost or downgraded relationships with healthier ones. But then where Margi is really helping us understand and Carrie, you reflect the to this improved self knowledge, you can have the opportunity to become strong and independent. We're going to talk about that in a bit and you get to help eventually start living like you said, Carah, living your best and most authentic life. So those are some of the many gifts of why you should consider coming out when it's right for you. But again, you need to have acceptance and the reality of conditioned love built into it so that you're not fighting against the inevitable and that frankly, you're not disappointed.

John Dehlin [01:00:49] Because if you go into disclosing to your family and friends that you're no longer a believer and you're expecting the worst case scenario, which is that they may be disappointed and sad, they may even cut you off, you may even lose the relationship. One of the nice gifts of a faith crisis can be when orthodox Mormons surprise you because there are orthodox believing Mormons who believe in unconditional love or who care more about people than beliefs. And you may find that, you know, one of the really great comments that we got on the Mormon Stories podcast post about this episode is that sometimes we live in fear.

John Dehlin [01:01:28] We're so terrorized by the fear of what might happen when we come out that we invent in our mind all sorts of worst case scenarios that actually may not come to pass. Your parents may surprise you, you don't want to expect that, but your parents may surprise you, your siblings may surprise you, your children may surprise you, your spouse may surprise you. You know what, one of the most fun discoveries that I've found is how many partners in a marriage or in a relationship have been going through a faith crisis and then when they, you know, alone terrorized that they'll lose their loved one when they disclose, they disclose to their loved one only to discover that their, their loved one has also been going through the same faith crisis.

John Dehlin [01:02:14] But they too have been terrorized. To tell you that's happened in marriages, that's happened in parent child relationships, that's happened in sibling relationships. We don't want you to go into the disclosure expecting that. But sometimes best, you know, worst case scenarios, you lose the relationship. But there are, there are possible positive outcomes that can include unsurprising love from the believer to discovering that they also are going through it. And, and, and you know, those are all possible positive outcomes.

Carah Burrell [01:02:46] Carah, what about this possible outcome I've never heard discussed? Maddie asks, could we talk about the denial that comes but with telling family I told mine last year and they act like the conversation never happened and it was really ugly to too when family just.

John Dehlin [01:03:00] Okay, so that is a great point. So, so the, the, so just to close out the one point I was trying to make is if we go back to our ACT model, there's the concept of being present, which is at 12 o'. Clock. And I just want to say that, that in your mental health, please understand that sometimes living out of fear of the future can terrorize you and bind you and can limit you from healing and growth. And so not assuming that the worst case scenario is always going to happen can be really healthy, along with accepting that the worst case scenario may happen.

John Dehlin [01:03:43] Now, going to the point that was just made, Carah, and this was something that was reflected in the comments on the Mormon Stories podcast blog. There are so many people when they come out who expect bishops or ward members or parents or family and friends to do what would seem completely normal. Which is to say this is like everyone's dream. Oh my gosh, you've lost your faith. I can't believe it. I thought the church was true. I love you and respect you. I think you're brilliant. Tell me everything about why you lost your faith. Tell me everything you've written, read, tell me everything you've learned.

John Dehlin [01:04:20] I'll sit here for the next 15 hours and have you hold class on why you lost your faith. Said no orthodox Mormon ever. Right. Like the. The most common reaction is what we call the crickets effect. And you need to understand that that is going to be the most likely reaction. The most likely reaction you are going to receive is that no one ever wants to know anything about your faith crisis. And so many orthodox believing Mormons will never ask you about it. So many ward members are going to just disappear. The most common reaction is no reaction at all. You should know that, you should expect it, you should understand it and you can embrace it because that is called the crickets effect and that is what we should expect.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] Now Margi, I want to give you a chance to respond to that and then Carah, I want to give you a chance to ask a follow up question to that.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:15] So one thing I was just going to build on that the reason why I feel like. And you can, you know, add or the reason why I feel like it. That's such an expected response. If we look at this is it is the way the church oftentimes responds to conflict. Like, you know, it's sort of like we don't do conflict or maybe I'll say differentiation.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:40] Well, right. Different opinions. Well, we're not taught how to do that in a church scenario. There's kind of one narrative, one train track. We're riding in a lesson that takes us from point A to point B and we're kind of all along for the ride, just nodding our heads or giving the 10 answers that are expected. And if you add on to that family culture, we all have family cultures. They're real. We have family conflicts cultures. What is, how does our family deal with different opinions? How do we deal with conflict that arises? And I think for many people, they don't just have the church kind of layering of how we deal with sort of differentiation, which is just, we don't, we don't really.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:26] But they have a family culture layering as well, where it's like, wow, we've never, we're just stunned to silence. We, you're just, we're going to walk around it and pretend like it never happened. And so I think being able to step back with a lens of more like an anthropologist kind of of like, how, how did we deal with conflict in. How did I see conflict resolved or worked through in my home? How did we deal with differing opinions? How did we. It can kind of normalize it and allow you to see it's really not about you. It's, it's, it's about those people in your kind of family system and what they do to cope when they're scared.

John Dehlin [01:07:07] Yeah, because, you know, religion is what people build their lives around. Their careers, their jobs, their education, their marriage, their, their community relationships. So it's just like for you, it was terrifying to consider losing your faith and then when you lost it, it's been very hard.

John Dehlin [01:07:25] Of course, believing loved ones are not going to want to know anything about your faith crisis because they're going to be worried that they'll get infected and that they'll have their worldview fall apart too. So that's why they never ask. Don't take it personally. And there's a, there is a pro and a con to the crickets effect to them not wanting to talk about it. The downside is you're like, wait, I thought you loved me. You know, I thought, I thought we had unconditional love. I thought you really cared about me. I thought you respected me. Me. And my only point there is to go back to kind of the expectations you thought that you were in a relationship of unconditional love.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] And this is one of the hard things to accept. You weren't. They love you, your ward loves you. The ward members respect and appreciate you. If, unfortunately, you continue your orthodox belief in the church, for the most part, it's a conditional thing. Mormon marriages are conditional on belief in the church. Church Mormon parent child relationships are often conditional Unbelief in the church, your ward relationships and your friendships and your sibling relationships are largely based on the conditionality of mutual belief in the church. So when you break that deal, they're terrified, they're afraid, and they are going to want to create distance from you. And you should go into this expecting and knowing that, not.

John Dehlin [01:08:51] Not denying reality. That's the downside that, that, that, that, you know, they're gonna not want to talk about it. It's going to make you feel like you weren't really loved unconditionally. There is a positive side because by them not wanting to talk about it, it means you don't have to go on this tour of trying to explain it. That is, it can end up probably ruining many, many more relationships as you try and explain it. So please, Don, I don't think that them not wanting to talk about it is all bad. Yes, it means you didn't have the relationships you thought. But it's also good because I promise you what we're going to get to in the role play in just a second is you probably don't want to have this conversation.

John Dehlin [01:09:33] They don't want to know. And having the conversation probably isn't going to go well. So that's my, that's my first answer to that question. Carah, any. Any response to that?

Carah Burrell [01:09:46] Yeah, and I think in real terms, as somebody who I just left the church two years ago, and from the first conversation that I had with my mom up until literally this past weekend, it has still been a constant two years of my mom not getting that I do not believe in her religion, even though she knows what I do for a living. She knows I set this table for a living now. So they took my kids to church last week because they were watching my kids. What are you gonna do about it? Every Christmas, they're still giving my kids church books. Books. They're constantly still.

Carah Burrell [01:10:13] You know, they'll send conference talks. They think that this, this will be the one that'll get Carah back. You know, they still are acting as though there's some hope that if they just have the right, the right conference talk will be the thing that gets her to feel the spirit and come back. And it feels like every conversation, any groundwork that we have done didn't even happen with them. And I think that's kind of originally the comment that I was reading from Matt. Daddy. I think that's a real common problem that a lot of people just a few years post faith transition always have to deal with is their family not Just the cricket effect of them not wanting to know the reasons why, but literally acting like nothing has changed.

Carah Burrell [01:10:53] Maybe it's, I guess you guys can speak to that. Like, is it too difficult for them to literally accept that I put a line in the sand and they just, they go ahead and erase that line over and over and over again? Like, no, I'm literally, I don't believe in this anymore. Going to go erase that line.

John Dehlin [01:11:07] You know, really quick, I want to do a shout out to Jeff Smith who just donated through the super chat feature on YouTube. He wrote the comment, no amount can compensate for saving my marriage with your support. Thanks, John and Margi and Carah for your continued efforts in shedding light. So Jeff, I just want to thank you for those donations. They help pay for Carah and for this, this initiative, the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. So thank you for the, that. Thank you for that comment, Carah. Margi, did you have a quick response?

Margi Dehlin [01:11:37] I was going to just say, like, that is. I feel that when you talk about it, I feel just the not being seen in that. I feel the exhaustion of kind of the resubmit, which I think maybe boundaries there, there might be some boundary work there. But also I see their coping and, and that's painful because I think sometimes you lose people and you start experiencing more of the coping of people. So instead of having a relationship with your mom where you're like talking and connecting about real things, real concerns, you're like hitting up against an Ensign article which is coping. I don't see that as part of your mom.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:17] I see it as her attempt to sort of assuage the pain she's feeling that you don't go anymore, you know, and it's a very different connection. And there's loss in that. It's like, hello, is my mom in there? And it's unconscious, which makes it more complicated because if you, if it was, if it was conscious, you could reach her, you know?

Carah Burrell [01:12:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:38] So it's like this on you. She feels unreachable, which is a loss on some level. It can feel like, you know, where are you? Where did you go? Are you in there? Like, why can't I connect?

John Dehlin [01:12:49] You love me? How about, do you love me?

Margi Dehlin [01:12:51] Do you see me, me? Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:12:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:53] That's painful.

Carah Burrell [01:12:54] In any respect. If you feel unseen, that's lonely, that's anxiety ridden. It's fear, it's. There's so many things that you never want to feel unseen, especially by the people who raised you and gave birth to you. And you felt so seen all growing up and then when you have to walk on your own into your new life now being. Yeah. Completely butting up against Clementine article. It's so. So fortunately I have a thick skin about it and it's kind of like a roll my eyes. But I know for people, other people, it can be a lot more, a lot more painful to be butting up against that constantly. Your parents never get it that I'm not, I'm not part of this faith anymore.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:34] Yeah. There's this idea of if you want to know if it's conditional or unconditional love, differentiate. Go get some data.

John Dehlin [01:13:43] If you want to know if your love is conditional, try differentiating from what you're doing, your loved one wants or expects from you and you'll see how unconditional the love is. That's great. Okay. We want to get to role plays because we know that that's one of the parts that people love and value most. Before we do that, there's one more point that we've been touching on, hinting on that I just wanted to add here. When we, when we talk about the benefits or the gifts of telling loved ones about your faith crisis, one of the last, you know, few points we listen to was self knowledge, becoming strong and independent and living your best and most authentic life.

Self-Sovereignty and Reparenting Yourself

John Dehlin [01:14:18] And this, this introduces a concept, Margi, that you wanted to make sure and mention, which is self sovereignty. And before we jump to that, I'm going to pull back to the ACT model really quick because I'm going to refer to this a thousand times during the gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. But on the right hand side, you'll see values as a really important concept within act. ACT value simply means you getting in touch with who you are, what turns you on, what gets you excited and what you value. And it's something religion carefully trains you not to do. Religions don't want you tapping into your inner drive, your inner interest, your inner wisdom to figure out what you believe and what's exciting for you and what turns you on and what you care about.

John Dehlin [01:15:05] They want you just sort of importing their value, what they care about, what they want you to do. And it's not because they're nefarious necessarily, it's just because that's how the first half of life system works. But if you want to live your most actuated, fulfilling, meaningful life, what you need to then learn to do, and this is part of any good coach or therapist is going to work through this with you, you need to do a values Inventory to figure out what's most important to you. And you need to start living your best life based on your own values.

John Dehlin [01:15:36] Not on values that your church gave you, not on the values that your parents gave you, not even on the values that your spouse gave you. Figuring out what turns you on, what gets you excited, what you want your life to be about. If you had a tombstone, what would you want to be on the tombstone? If someone was going to give an eulogy for you at your funeral, what would you want them to say? These are ways to think about what values are and why they matter. And one really important value you, that Margi wanted to maybe talk about a little bit is this idea of self sovereignty.

John Dehlin [01:16:09] Margi, can you just introduce this concept of self sovereignty and why it's important? And you also have this idea of reparenting kind of parenting yourself. Can you just introduce this really quick and then we'll go to role play?

Margi Dehlin [01:16:25] Sure. So I think when we look at kind of where we come from. Okay. And. And many of our families of origin and how we experienced love and how we were parented, I think a lot of what we feel moving forward and having these tough conversations, it makes a lot of sense, and we kind of have to unpack that. Self sovereignty, to me means that I am actively processing my relationships with people in my life and the incoming data, and I connect with myself about it, and I connect with my values about it, and I intentionalize those relationships. I consider the actual level of relationship I have with that person, for example, which we haven't really talked about yet.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:15] But this idea is oftentimes because it's family, and we grew up in a religion that said family was everything that we look at our. Our family relationships like, they're all level five. My. My relationship with my mom is level five. It's deep. I tell her I should be able to tell her everything. I should trust her, and I should experience this love. Right. Oftentimes people, that's their default family's level five.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] They assume that.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:39] They'll assume it. Right. But when you actually look at the level of relationship that you have with a sibling, with a parent, with, you know, your. Your dad, you're actually like, well, it's actually more of a level two. And we can call once you differentiate.

John Dehlin [01:17:53] Like, I think that's the point you're making. Once you start differentiating, you see that these relationships that you just assumed were all fives. Oh, my ward. I've been bishop in my ward. I was Relief Society president. They really love Me, they'll care about when I lose my faith. Oh, my mission president really valued me. He'll care. He'll want to know why. My siblings, they're my best friends. Care. I think you've had this right. My siblings are my best friends. I tell them everything. My sister's gonna just super want to know every little detail about why I lost my faith. Not. Not true. They're not all fives once you start differentiating, Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:18:28] Yeah. And oftentimes not even before then. Before then, we still have this posturing of like, I'm fine. I'm great. Are you fine? Yeah, I'm fine. Like, we have that perfection. Yes. And we don't talk about the, you know, so even before I would say. But I would just say, kind of take a moment to reflect on. That's an important piece of. Kind of honoring yourself, of seeing relationships for who they. For what level they really are. So it's not uncommon for people to go in with a level five disclosure. Let me tell you about. With a lot of vulnerability, with a lot of, like, you would just.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:02] Your dearest human, but you're actually talking to your mom, who's like level two, which it's like we talk, you know, about the day and my kids and what's going on with our, you know, family's lives and people. And occasionally.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:18] And occasionally, like, I'll get into, like, an issue about my child. So there's some depth there, but it's not a whole lot. Well, you might want to consider matching, you know, the. Your approach to the level of relationship you actually have. So in other words, your conversation would be more of level two. It's like, I'm going to give you kind of basics, but I'm not going to really go in. So that's.

John Dehlin [01:19:41] That's that we're going to come back to that. But. But the self sovereignty point is, what if you. If you have been dependent on your parents for ego, for self confidence.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:53] Right.

John Dehlin [01:19:53] If you've been dependent on your spouse, if you've been dependent on your ward, how the community looks at you, your stake, your ward.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:02] You know, you. Sovereign sovereignty. You've. You've basically outsourced sovereignty to an external.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:20:09] System. And that's, you know, that's natural. That's normal. Like we said, a lone monkey is a dead monkey. We all do it. It takes a village. We all got to adulthood by leaning on the esteem of our parents, our siblings, our children, our grandparents, our ward, our bishop. Bishop. Yeah, but there is a better way. I Think there's a healthier way. So can you talk about self sovereignty and how people might start moving in that direction?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:36] Yeah. So self sovereignty is the first time I kind of felt that was from Brene Brown braving the wilderness, where she talks about until you belong to yourself, until you brave the wilderness of just being alone with your, you know, meaning you're true to yourself and you lose people and you're in that wilderness place, you never belong to yourself and you'll never belong anywhere else. And so it's this idea of self advocacy, of self honoring, of connecting with yourself, of coming out of these structures where you for so long showed up for the needs of others and beginning to kind of show up for your own needs as well. Your own needs, you take into account, you trust your own voice and you practice, you know, kind of the application of your values in different ways as you kind of live your days. That's how I look at self sovereignty. It's inner driven.

John Dehlin [01:21:36] Yeah. And so isn't there a psychological shift where in learning to, instead of constantly needing the validation of others, do. Do you work with your clients about a way to kind of. Of provide your own self validation? Is that what you talked about?

Margi Dehlin [01:21:54] Is that what you're thinking with reparenting? The idea behind reparenting. Yes, is in part some of that, particularly if that works really well if you were in a really, you're feeling rejected or abandoned. But it's also in those times when you find yourself having tough emotions or that you're able to show up for yourself in a way you wish your parent had in a way you deserved as a child, that you start offering it to yourself as opposed to wanting your spouse to do it when you can't do it, or that you kind of practice being whole, self sustaining and showing up and not abandoning yourself to run to the. Because that's what happens. Right. When we're busy taking care of our mom who's distressed, stressed, we tend to leave ourselves to do that. We leave our own emotions, harm ourselves.

John Dehlin [01:22:48] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:49] We harm ourselves. We may betray ourselves for that. And this is how we've learned to kind of cope. And this is all part of the system. And so that's a little bit about reparenting. It is a practice. It's. It can be daily for people depending on if they have a lot of harsh judgments that they hear that is like a parental voice in their heads when they make mistakes or when they, you know. And so this idea of reparenting comes up a lot and it'll come up today when we're talking in these conversations.

John Dehlin [01:23:23] I love it. Okay, so that is the, that is the last kind of structural framework that we wanted to share is as a part of your values, you should have it as one of your values to develop self, self sovereignty and to learn to reparent or to parent yourself.

John Dehlin [01:23:42] And that is going to really serve you well. Okay so that is, so that, that was my best idea this morning as I was thinking about how to provide a framework that is the framework we wanted to share with you as an introduction because I think those are some of the most important structural things that speak about why we're so afraid grade and what's going on when we actually do come out. I hope that was useful.

John Dehlin [01:24:08] And again we'll be coming back to acceptance commitment therapy later. Then, then I, I started to put together kind of a list of some basic tips on coming out and I'm just going to tell you right now we are not going to cover these in depth today. We're going to save for a part two going more into these basic tips. But I want to introduce them them just in a minute so that then when we do some role play you can identify some of the, some of the actual tips being employed in the role play. So really quickly when you are planning to disclose to believing family members that you no longer believe, it's important to understand your own attention intention to get clear on what it is you hope to accomplish by having that conversation with them.

Practical Tips for Disclosing to Family

John Dehlin [01:25:00] Them. Margi, you talked about this idea of checking in with them to ask permission because a lot of people don't want to know or they don't even want to know what you're going through. And, and just this idea of informed consent before traumatizing them or sharing something with them really hard. Margi, we're going to be talking in another episode about asking permission to come out to them and talk to them about something really hard card. We're gonna be talking about matching the level of relationship. Matching your disclosure with the emotional intimacy levels in the relationship. That's really important.

John Dehlin [01:25:36] Thinking about proper time and place, whether you do it in private or in a more family setting, those are all important things to consider. Whether you do it through face to face or on the telephone or over email. I never recommend text.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] We could talk about that another time. Creating an environment of safety with them so that they feel safe, that they don't feel like you're trying to ruin their life or convert them to your point of view. Less is more is something that we're going to be talking about today, which is minimizing the actual words you use and the content you try and share.

John Dehlin [01:26:14] Healthy boundaries are going to be really important as they try and lure you into unhealthy types of conversations. That's something we're going to be practicing today. And then I'm just going to reiterate acceptance. Acceptance, Acceptance versus resisting reality. And then the final thing I'm going to add, there is a concept of getting help, relying on a coach or a therapist to kind of help prepare you for this type of intervention and then also to decompress what happens afterwards. So those are just some basic tips. We're going to cover those at a future time. I just want to introduce them them. Now it's time for everyone's favorite part of these episodes, roleplay. What do you think, Margi? You ready for some role play?

Role Play: Ineffective and Effective Disclosure

Margi Dehlin [01:27:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:27:01] Are you excited for role play?

Margi Dehlin [01:27:03] Excited? Well, I'm ready.

John Dehlin [01:27:05] Carrie, you've told our listeners in the past you're a fan of role play. Is that right?

Carah Burrell [01:27:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:08] You're amazing at it.

Carah Burrell [01:27:09] Call back to your own joke. Your own failed joke there, John.

John Dehlin [01:27:12] Inside joke.

Carah Burrell [01:27:13] No, John's referencing something I said in Kelly trust interview. Go watch it anyway. Not. You have to watch the entire five hours to get the joke.

John Dehlin [01:27:22] We just have a little humor here and there. What were you going to say?

Carah Burrell [01:27:25] Yeah, who do I get to be in this role play?

John Dehlin [01:27:27] Yeah. Well, we'll see. We'll see. So this is the time of role play and we're going to role play three different scenarios. The first scenario we're going to role play is the minimalist disclosure. So Margi is going to play the role of the. Well, let's start with the unhealthy disclosure. Right. So Carah, I'm going to. I'm going to put you on the spot. Spot. And do you want to. Do you want to represent the unhealthy disclosure or the parent who's res. Or family member that's receiving the unhealthy disclosure?

Carah Burrell [01:27:57] Yeah, like I can role play my mom really easy.

John Dehlin [01:27:59] Is that, can you do that? Okay, so I'm in a role play to begin the unhealthy disclosure. And you're going to. You're going to be your mom. Is that okay?

Carah Burrell [01:28:09] Yeah. Oh, I'm doing it with you, not Margi.

John Dehlin [01:28:10] Yeah. And then Margi's going to. I'm going to roleplay the healthy disclosure with Margi. Is that okay?

Carah Burrell [01:28:15] Oh, yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:16] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:28:16] Okay. So I'm gonna. This is an unhealthy disclosure. And this is where more is more, where you're unsafe. So going back to the basic tips, I'm gonna model not making them feel safe. I'm gonna model terrorizing your loved one. I'm gonna model unhealthy boundaries. And I'm in a model making them feel unsafe. And more is more versus less is less. Is that okay? Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:41] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:28:41] So you're going to pretty much do, like, typical things. Somebody just read the CES letter or something and they just want to, like, let their mom know that they hate the religion they came from and nothing healthy about it.

John Dehlin [01:28:53] Yeah. So this is the word vomit disclosure. That's unsafe. Here we go. So I am child. You are. Mom. Are you ready? Mom. Okay. All right. Mom, I know that you. I know that you're, you know, in the middle of a really stressful thing where all, you know, we're preparing for a family reunion. And I know this is a really hard time, but I've got something on my chest and it's really important and I just. I need you to know about it. All right?

Carah Burrell [01:29:21] All right. You get in the car wreck?

John Dehlin [01:29:23] No.

Carah Burrell [01:29:24] Get somebody pregnant.

John Dehlin [01:29:25] Are you worried? Are you worried?

Margi Dehlin [01:29:26] Out with it.

John Dehlin [01:29:27] Okay. All right. So I just need you to know that I no longer believe the church is true. I have decided that the Mormon Church is probably more like a cult than a church, and it's really harmed me. And there are a lot of reasons why. I need you to know that. I haven't lost my faith because I wanted to sin. But the truth is that I started reading about Joseph Smith and I realized that Joseph Smith.

Carah Burrell [01:29:58] Well, what were your sources? Where'd you even find this information about Joseph Smith? Okay, well, you need to stick to church approved sources. That's your first problem, John.

John Dehlin [01:30:06] Well, mom, can you please just hear me out? Joseph Smith was a polygamist. He married 30 wives.

Carah Burrell [01:30:12] Yeah, and I already know about that. You know what? There's a lot of things you'll find on the Internet and they're actually, they're. They're called anti Mormon lies for a reason. John, you know better than to go searching around on the Internet.

John Dehlin [01:30:23] Mom, I need you to listen to me. It's not just. It's not just.

Carah Burrell [01:30:26] This is because I didn't hold you enough as a child, is it?

John Dehlin [01:30:28] No, listen, mom, it's not just that.

Carah Burrell [01:30:30] Because I was a working mom.

John Dehlin [01:30:31] It's that he used a stone and a hat to translate the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon is not a historical document.

Carah Burrell [01:30:37] Are you hearing this? Stuff. This is not true. You're just making stuff up. You're just trying to sin, probably. John.

John Dehlin [01:30:43] No, Mom, I'm serious. This is really important to me. And I need you to understand that the things that I have learned are credible. That the church is not true. And I want you to learn the same things I've learned so that you can not be captivated by an unhealthy organization. I'm trying to save you, Mom.

Carah Burrell [01:31:05] You think that the church is not true when just look at all of the good fruits. Look at the temple. Remember your covenants. Everything your father and I have given you. Everything. You're a college educated. You have. Have a beautiful family. Now. What happened? This is. This is not the way that I raised you. You know better than this, John, to be searching around on the Internet for reasons to believe. All of this anti Mormon business over here. Just stick with what you already know. I can't believe that you'd be so easily persuaded like this.

John Dehlin [01:31:32] Look, you know that I'm smart. I was ap on my mission.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:35] And.

John Dehlin [01:31:36] And you sound like you're disappointed in me. You sound like all of that up, but you sound like you're just some.

Carah Burrell [01:31:42] Probably some podcaster that you found on YouTube. Why are you trusting these other sources? Trust what you already know.

John Dehlin [01:31:49] But mom, it sounds like you're disappointed in me. I'm still your good little boy. I just. I've learned some things and you should care about these things if you love me.

Carah Burrell [01:31:58] Yeah. I am disappointed in you because I had a. A really hard time raising you. Your dad was at work all the time and we took you to church and we taught you the right things. And I can't believe you'd give that up just for some.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:09] Some.

Carah Burrell [01:32:09] Some anti Mormon lies.

John Dehlin [01:32:12] All right, beautiful. Margi's nodding. Hopefully the audience related to some of that. Carrie, you can tell us if any audience members have made any comments that are.

Carah Burrell [01:32:23] People are commenting on my face. I just channeled Carol. It wasn't. That's my mom. I just. I've had this conversation before, so I'll be like, what would Carol say?

John Dehlin [01:32:30] Okay, well, if there's any comments you want to browse through really quickly, let us know if the audience is at all vibing with that ineffective role play. That was ineffective role play. Those are things you don't want to do. Going into details, not having a healthy, calm set and setting.

John Dehlin [01:32:50] More is more word vomiting all over them, making them feel terrorized, making them feel like you're trying to convert them. Those are all you know, crossing unhealthy boundaries, modeling control. They're not accepting the fact that you're going to be a disappointment. Those are all things you don't want to do. Now we're going to do is turn the time over to Margi. We're going to do some healthy role play. Margi is going to model the healthy disclosure and I am going to model the parent now and we're going to model a healthy role play.

John Dehlin [01:33:27] So we'll put these in the time notes in the time codes so that you can jump forward to these points as you need to. But Margi, is there anything you want to do to set up the, the, the tenants of your disclosure?

Margi Dehlin [01:33:39] Yeah. So here is, are some things to know about, you know, the type of relationship this is. So in order for me to give this type of role play and the responses I have, have, this person is a relatively safe, safe person in my life that I'm talking to. I would say probably a level 2 to 3, which is oftentimes where we tend to be with family relationships. And yeah, I kind of feel like, yeah, those are the main points. You're safe, you're, you're a reason.

John Dehlin [01:34:16] You want to communicate that they're safe,

Margi Dehlin [01:34:18] they're a safe person. So not highly volatile, not highly antagonistic, not highly defensive. You're relatively safe.

John Dehlin [01:34:25] You want to make them feel safe.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:26] And we have kind of a level 2, ish, 2 to 3 relationship.

Carah Burrell [01:34:31] And can I add one more thing? I think from the role play John and I had. I just remember the way that John was acting when he's doing an unhealthy disclosure. It sounded like when you're in that position, it's like reaching for. We remember we're talking about acceptance and all of the things you just mentioned, it sounded like when somebody's in that unhealthy place, they're desperate that if I can just get this one thing out, Hear me out on this one issue too. But that space is already not established for everything that you're talking about.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:57] Right?

Carah Burrell [01:34:57] So this is the space that you want to establish. If that space isn't there, you will not be heard, no matter how much you want to say. But listen to this point. But I still, I'm still going to be this, I have good reasons to leave. I'm not gonna let you down. That space is not even, we're not even in the room on the same planet of that space. So like give up, give that part up and work towards what Margi's gonna do here.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:17] That Is so true. And can I just say holistic psychologist. I feel like everyone can know that

John Dehlin [01:35:21] contact, that's a good for the show notes that's a good reference.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:25] Something she always talks about is when you're over explaining that's a sign you're seeking approval. We don't over explain with people. We have secure attachment with with and so anytime you're in this place of like hear me, hear me, I'm going to give you more and more details. We don't want to ever be in that place.

John Dehlin [01:35:43] My friend Roger Hendricks, who we've had a Mormon stories, he always says when you're explaining your losing. Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's not your role to explain. Okay. So you're gonna model a healthy disclosure. You're gonna make them feel safe. Less is more. Are you gonna do the love sandwich where you start out with something loving then do the disclosure and then end with something loving. Are you gonna do that?

Margi Dehlin [01:36:04] So this is someone I value in my life. This is a relationship. I, I, So the things I'm saying, everything you want to say in this, you want to be true. So if the things I'm saying are not true to you, you don't value the relationship or you don't then you would want to put things in place that actually are true but that are positive or so that's an important thing is we don't want people lying now.

John Dehlin [01:36:26] Oh, go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:26] I have one more framing that we're going to care about environment. So this is not, this is something I will have cared about before we talk and the environment, what that we're looking for is something that is kind of low stimuli. There's some privacy that we can have and it's a good time for me, a good time emotionally for me and as far as I can tell it's a good time of day, good time for them. They're not rushed for an appointment. They're not.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:55] So those are a couple things. And another thing people tend to do sometimes is they add drama to the environment and timing. They'll like over care where it's like I have something really important to tell you and I want to meet you at 8 o' clock clock and at my living room. And and I learned this from Natasha. It like you dramatize the environment before you ever talk. It's like now the person's like oh

Carah Burrell [01:37:19] my gosh, I have to go over

Margi Dehlin [01:37:20] at 8pm and it's in the living room.

John Dehlin [01:37:23] This is really gonna happen. Is he addicted to porn?

Margi Dehlin [01:37:25] We Want to be sensitive that we're careful about privacy, we're careful about being a good time, but we're not dramatizing over.

John Dehlin [01:37:32] Dramatizing what's happening.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:33] Okay. All right. Okay. Okay. So this is a. Oh, and I'm going to say one last thing. Margi's going to be doing this, you know, face to face. I want you to think about how your. If you decide to disclose through email, a lot of these same principles apply about the love sandwich, about making them feel safe, about less is more and. And set and setting. Is that okay? Because I think this disclosure that you're going to do verbally probably could apply to. To a written email as well. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:07] And I'm going to break down the steps.

John Dehlin [01:38:08] Okay, let's do it.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:09] People can see.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] All right, so we're. So I'm the parent.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:13] You want to be dad.

John Dehlin [01:38:15] I'm dad, and you're my daughter.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:17] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:38:17] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:18] Okay. All right, so the first thing I'm going to do is the invitation. So I'm going to say. Start by saying like, hey, dad, it's good to see you. How are you doing?

John Dehlin [01:38:29] Good. Yeah, everything's great. Everything's always great. How are you?

Margi Dehlin [01:38:34] I'm feeling pretty good. I have been wanting to talk to you for some time and I'm curious. You know, it's kind of feeling vulnerable for me right now, so I'm curious if it feels like a good time for you to kind of listen and hold it or if it's. If we should try for another time. I mean, does this. Do you feel in a position where you feel like you could listen and. Wow. Because I'm feeling kind of scared.

John Dehlin [01:38:56] Wow, that's. Oh, my gosh. Well, now I'm really worried if something happened, but it's so nice of you to ask. Yeah, I'm. I'm actually feeling okay right now. And now I'm a little worried about what's going on, but.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:08] But yeah, I always want to talk to you and, and, and help in any way that I can.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:13] I really appreciate that. Yeah. And to be honest, things have been a little bit challenging. Nothing for you to really, really worry about out. But things have been kind of challenging for me and I just. I'm feeling really grateful that for our relationship and that I have you in my life and that I can actually, on some level, you know, be in a position to share a bit of this because I wonder if you're seeing things or observing things at all, that maybe this will help explain it, so.

John Dehlin [01:39:43] Oh, well, thank you for those kind words of support. And, yeah, thanks for asking me. I'm very eager to hear what's going on.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:52] Yeah, I think the big news is for a while now, I've been feeling, oh, a lot of things, but for now I'm feeling like I need to step away from the church. I'm feeling this desire to have more space during this time, and I know that that may be particularly hard for you to hear. Is it feeling hard for you to hear?

John Dehlin [01:40:16] Wow. Well, this is. I mean, this is every parent's kind of worst. Every Mormon parents worst nightmare. Like, yeah, this is. I mean, honestly, this is the worst possible news you could probably give me.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:29] Wow. Okay. Well, I hear that and I, I can appreciate your feelings around that. I feel like this will be good for me and so I would really appreciate your support on it. What I can tell you is I feel like this will be really healthy for me and I don't want you to worry about me. I feel like I'm still the same person I've always been, that a lot. Like my values are still my values, but that for me, when I'm kind of considering my health, this is a decision that just is feeling really, really right for me.

John Dehlin [01:41:09] Okay, so.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:10] So I've just done safety. Sorry, I should have told you that. So I provided a simple explanation. I'm going to step away. I use those words because they're not really clear. And for a lot of people when they're in this step, they're not really sure. They're not sure what they're doing. And it doesn't necessarily benefit the parent to know I've made this decision and here's the decision and, but, so it's.

John Dehlin [01:41:34] Can I, can I add something there?

Margi Dehlin [01:41:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:36] So when you use the term stepping away, that actually was a tiny bit jarring for me as a coach. I use, I sometimes have recommended slightly softer words like I'm, you know, my, my. You know, Margi and I are, are kind of working through our feelings about the church. We're, we're, you know, we've. We've had some questions about the church, and right now the church isn't feeling, you know, church activity right now isn't a super healthy thing for us. We're finding that it's just not right now a healthy thing for us or for our family. And so all I just wanted to say is we're taking some time to work through that and to process it and to figure out what that means for us.

John Dehlin [01:42:22] And I, and I'm just saying there's a subtle word difference between stepping up, stepping away. I think that's what you used and kind of. Of figuring things out. It's kind of a soft. It's kind of a soft way to describe.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:34] We could use space instead.

John Dehlin [01:42:36] Taking some space. Taking space, taking a break.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:39] Another thing is we're. We're taking a pause. We're put. We're placing a. A pause. All these things are things you can say. And language is important. And so for everyone, use terminology that feels true and good for you. This is just to give kind of a structure or a flow as to what it would feel like. So. So, yeah, one thing. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:43:00] Remember we were talking about the values, and John always. I remember him talking about that you need to reevaluate. Maybe honesty was a really high priority for you when you were Mormon, and maybe now it's not advantageous to this relationship. So it sounds like that's the honest thing to say, is that we're stepping away, but it's not advantageous to the type of discussion you're having. And that's why John's trying to, like, use softer terminology.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:20] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:43:20] So I think what you were just saying is people need to actually think, how high stakes is this to my family right now? What will resonate with. In a way that will not cause them to flip a table and freak out? What's the softest way to put it? And maybe that is using less honest language about what you're actually. Maybe you're completely an atheist now, or maybe you're completely never going back to church. But if you say that in such direct terms, it's not advantageous.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:44] That's.

Carah Burrell [01:43:45] At this point in time, that's.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:46] That's beautiful. And to me, here's. Here's me. If It's a level 2, 3 person for me and they're safe, I'm gonna say step away way. But that's me. And that's why everyone has to kind of use the language and assess the relationship like you're saying. And the softness required. Right. For this situation.

John Dehlin [01:44:06] And Mar, is it okay if we flip now and I. I do mine.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:09] I'm not done yet.

John Dehlin [01:44:10] Oh, go ahead. Okay. Yeah, keep going. So we're back in role play now.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:44:13] Okay, so we haven't finished your role play. Okay. Keep going.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:16] But that was the safety. That was kind of creating safety. I validated your feelings. And then I also kind of said, hey, my values. I'm still the same person. I'm still the same. Which is meant to Sort of, hey, kind of assuage. I'm not saying everything's the same. I'm saying a lot of my values are the same. Okay. And then I'm gonna say, you know, I really appreciate where you're coming from. And I would never want to, you know, try to persuade you to, you know, understand or to see my point of view or to show you learn, because I, because I support you doing what feels best to you. And I also ask that you do the same for me. That I need that from you right now, and I'm asking for it and I, I will give it to you. And I'm requesting it as well.

John Dehlin [01:45:04] But, sweetie, I, I, I get a sense that, you know, honey, I sense that you have probably been watching or listening to podcasts you shouldn't. That you probably stumbled on anti Mormon literature. And I want you to know I've read it all, I know it all, and I've studied Fair Mormon and I've got answers for any question you have. And so if you are losing your faith, either I can help you resolve it, or I can get you in touch with people that can resolve the next one.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:32] Now to this one where you're trying to persuade me.

John Dehlin [01:45:34] No, yeah, actually, you're right. Go ahead and do it. Go and do it.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:38] But I can't respond. I can't do it.

John Dehlin [01:45:40] Go and respond.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:40] Okay. Yeah. I really appreciate where you're coming from, and I think it's important that this journey is my own. Own. But I appreciate your offering, but I

John Dehlin [01:45:49] really want to help you. I really want to support you.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:52] I really hear that. And I think it's a journey I have to make on my own. But I appreciate you offering. The boundary is repetition. So sometimes boundaries, words, oftentimes if you have a really insistent person who's. We'll show that in the next one. If someone's really kind of. Then there are other boundaries you can make other than words, especially if they're not listening to your words.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] I love it. Okay. What, what? Any other parts of the disclosure you want to share?

Margi Dehlin [01:46:19] No, that's the main thing. It's just sort of. And it can look really different for different people. But those tenants were there. Oh, yeah. And then when we end, it's like, hey, I really love you. I appreciate you. Thank you for giving me this time and space.

John Dehlin [01:46:31] I love it. Okay. So if it's okay. That was beautiful, Margi. Thank you. We're gonna flip it and do the same thing. I'm gonna just give my standard disclosure and you Play the role of, let's just say a spouse. So you're my, you're my believing wife. I'm a non believing husband. And I'm going to come out to you and wait.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:51] Am I doing this well or am I doing this?

John Dehlin [01:46:53] You're going to be reasonable. Yeah. You're not going to be pro, you know, argumentative or problematic because the purpose.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:59] Give another option.

John Dehlin [01:46:59] Yeah. What I just want to do is kind of now do it right in my words so that people have kind of.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:05] This is so important.

John Dehlin [01:47:06] Two different, two different options.

Carah Burrell [01:47:07] Is that okay?

Margi Dehlin [01:47:08] That's great.

John Dehlin [01:47:08] Okay. Okay. So I'm non role play. I'm non believing husband. You're non believing wife or you're believing. And we'll have this as its own time code. Okay. So. Hey, sweetie, I've got something kind of important I need to talk to you about. And do you have a few minutes? Is this a good time?

Margi Dehlin [01:47:30] Yeah, sure, sure.

John Dehlin [01:47:31] Okay. I wanted to begin just by saying, first of all, there's nothing. There's nothing like there's no big problem. There's nothing you need to be afraid of. I actually am seeing this is really good. But I don't want you to worry. This, this is, this is something that I feel like is going to be really good in the end. But what I wanted to just say is, first of all, I want you to know that I love you as my wife. I am happier now in many ways in our marriage than I've ever been. I'm so committed to you. I love you so much. And I'm just grateful for the loving and supportive wife that you've been over the years. And I've. I've loved our journey together. So I wanted to start by saying that.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:17] Okay, now I'm a little. And okay.

John Dehlin [01:48:22] Yeah. Well, I just want to start that because I really feel those things and, and I. I don't want that to get lost because that's probably the most important thing. I just want you to know how much I love you and how much you mean to me. Now, I know that this. You're probably afraid. So let me just tell you the main thing I want you to know.

John Dehlin [01:48:38] And this is, this is difficult, but my relationship with the church is kind of changing. I don't know how it's going to end, but I'm in this process of learning things about the church, not feeling perfect, not feeling great in the church and trying to figure out what it means.

John Dehlin [01:48:57] And, and basically just wrestling with the church. And I just wanted to let you Know this so that you're not surprised, so you don't hear from somebody else. And I just want you to know that I'm going through that right now. And.

John Dehlin [01:49:13] But I also want to let you know that I'm. I. You are safe with me. Me. That I care about our relationship more than anything. And I am never going to ever share with you any of the doubts that I have. I'm never going to try and take your faith away. I respect you and your faith so much that this is something that I'm going to be working through, and you don't need to worry. And I just want you to know that I believe we're going to be okay in the end. And. But I just wanted to let you know ahead of time. Time that that's what I'm going through.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:48] What does that mean for us? I just. I'm so scared. What does that mean? What does all this mean?

John Dehlin [01:49:55] Yeah. Yeah. Well, what I want to reassure you about, to make sure you feel safe, is that I'm committed to you. And what it doesn't mean is that I'm questioning our marriage. It doesn't mean that I'm questioning my faithfulness to you. It doesn't mean that I'm going to now start. Start doing unhealthy, irresponsible behaviors, that I'm not going to go off a cliff. I'm going to be the same loving and kind, devoted husband and father that I've always been. It just means that I'm working through some questions that I have. And it may mean that for a time, I might need to not always go to church or take a break for a season to try and work through all this.

John Dehlin [01:50:42] But I want you to feel assured that I'm not changing at my core who I am. I'm not changing my values. And that I'm as committed to you and the family and the children as. As. As ever.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:58] Can't you just go on Sunday? Do you have to not go? Like, what about the kids? What do we say to the kids? I just don't. Like, can you. Are you leaving? Like, are you thinking you're gonna leave?

John Dehlin [01:51:10] Those are. Those are. I'm. I'm. Yeah. I'm. I'm so sorry that this is scaring you. I can tell that this is scaring you. And I just want you to know I'm not leaving. I am committed to you. I'm committed to our kids. And I want you to know that I'm gonna need to, you know, as I'm wrestling Through this, I'm gonna do my best to make it minimally disruptive. So I'm not going to talk to the kids without your, your consent and approval. I'm not going to go like trying to go all over the Internet and spread doubt and fear with other people. I will attend church with you as much as I can if it can be healthy for me.

John Dehlin [01:51:49] I'm going to just be there right by you and give you and the kids time to adjust. I'm not going to change any of our basic commitments. I'm not going to start drinking. I'm not going to start smoking. I'm not going to just immediately stop paying my tithing or stop wearing my garments unless we talk about that first. I am going to go as slow and as steady and as communicative as I can with you so that we walk through this journey together and so that it's minimally disruptive to you and to the kids.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:21] Well, that means a lot. This is scary, but that means a lot to me and I wish I could could. I don't think I want to hear what you're, I'm not ready to hear the things that you're. But I really do like sharing things. So I think I just need some time and space to think it through.

John Dehlin [01:52:39] Yeah. And I just want to re, re reassure you that I won't be sharing. I, I, I respect your faith. I respect where you stand. I respect that our family right now was created under the, you know, common belief in the church that the kids are all in it. And I'm not going to do anything to try and persuade you to no longer believe or to like mess with the kids beliefs intentionally. We're going to walk this path together and I am going to do my best to make you and the kids feel safe while I'm working through this. You have my commitment on that, that and I'm going to go through it slowly.

John Dehlin [01:53:21] Hopefully we can hold hands together and go through this. I don't know where it's going to lead, but I want you to feel secure that I, you have my love and support, so do the kids. And I'm going to check in with you every step of the way on any changes that might happen so that you never feel misled, you never feel deceived, and you never feel like I've betrayed your trust. Because it's really important to me in this process. Process that I not betray your trust.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:52] Okay. Thank you, love. I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:53:57] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:57] I feel like a level, like a level four or that was mean by that. Just like a very safe because. Because you gave a lot as the person who to me you. You gave a lot. So did you it to me it felt like an intimate as opposed to the one I was doing, which is like a level two or three where there were some boundaries there and you're trying to kind of of right with yours. That felt very open and intimate and generous. That was a really. Yeah, it's beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:54:29] Oh, thank you. Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:54:30] Carah, as somebody who had that conversation like two years ago, I am like just the same with Leah's. Remember to me like literally the same thing. Maybe I was wearing the same exact outfit with the same bun in my hair, you know, and into a couple role plays. I get the emotions going and I'm like, oh, I had that kind of conversation. That was congratulations to my husband, by the way. He. Without listening to any of this stuff. I think my husband did a really good job. I was Margi in this situation two years ago. John was definitely in Aaron's position and I think Aaron did a great job.

Carah Burrell [01:54:58] But because we come from a religion that is has a covenant path and it's so black and white, no matter how gracious and generous how my husband talked to me, I was doing Mark. You kind of alluded to it like, well, what does this mean? I immediately went to like, does that mean you're not baptizing the kids? And now I look at the shame of like, oh my gosh, my somebody else is gonna have to baptize our kids. That's all I'm thinking about. I'm not listening to what you're saying anymore because I'm panicking that my kids baptism's coming up or I'm panicking that I'm going to be okay.

Carah Burrell [01:55:24] I have to vision myself sitting in the pew alone. I have to vision myself going to a temple wedding by myself without my husband there.

John Dehlin [01:55:30] All of the, you know, not those

Carah Burrell [01:55:33] necessarily get divorced, just the, just those could happen too. But just the basic like standard Mormon logistical things of, oh, I had a vision of our life being along this line and then the rug being ripped out. Now what does this mean? What is this, what is this going to look like? I've never had my brain go through this painful like muscle process of re evaluating what it's going to look like to have a mixed faith marriage that is so immediately kind of traumatizing and you get hot and you get like get flooded and you're almost what they're saying doesn't even matter anymore because you're just like, you're kind of having a freak out.

Carah Burrell [01:56:09] And so when we, the main thing I think we're talking about is making it safe. That just so you know, I'm not going to do anything that's going to disrupt the safety. And so along those lines, we had a good comment from Thomas I wanted to introduce where he said the concept of not talking about any messy church history, even objectively with my spouse, doesn't feel like something I can immediately agree to you. What is wrong about me feeling this? So John, you said in that role play that you're like, I'm, I'm not going to bring up church history things which I think that's when, when mixed faith marriages go from non mixed faith and they both leave together, it usually comes from like, okay, give me a little breadcrumb of what have you been learning?

Carah Burrell [01:56:49] So yeah, that's a great, that's just kind of like off the table in that immediate conversation, I think. But eventually things are going to need to be shared about.

John Dehlin [01:56:59] So let me, let me explain kind of the strategy around that. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:57:02] Because it's important.

John Dehlin [01:57:02] And thanks for, for reading those comments and sharing them, Carah and Thomas, thanks for making that comment and that question. First of all, let me give a couple stipulations. This isn't, you know, we're not, you know, this isn't true like the, the approach I just gave or the approach Margi gave. It's not like they're the one true or the two true approaches. Everyone's approach is going to be different. These are just some techniques that we've developed over time that we found who worked for some people. So you're gonna have to decide, be your own internal authority and decide what's best for you and your family.

John Dehlin [01:57:31] So I just wanna say that there's nothing that's quote true, capital T about these approaches. But let me tell you, Thomas and everyone, the strategy behind the make them feel safe. So this is something I've talked about in a million different places. There's this thing called the backfire effect where take abortion or take gun rights or take, you know, the immunization, like the COVID vaccine.

John Dehlin [01:57:53] There's a psychological dynamic that has been demonstrated in some cases where when you go to your loved one or friend with evidence that actually demonstrates to them that their closely held belief is wrong, when you provide them with evidence that actually demonstrates that it's wrong, what you actually create in them sometimes psychologically is what's called the backfire effect, where they actually, when they feel threatened to their core in terms of their own identity, political identity, religious identity, worldview. They actually sometimes recoil and even hold tighter and believe stronger in the things that you try to talk to them about. So, Thomas, you may have a desire to want to do the word vomit, as we say, and read them the high points of the CES letter.

John Dehlin [01:58:51] And all I'm going to say is there may be a time where they want to know that usually, and we just talked about this usually, you know, when I was watching Margi's eyes as I was disclosing to her what the believing spouse or family member hears, you're saying, I've lost my faith. Everything's going to be okay. In their mind, all they're hearing is, you're going to divorce me, you're going to start cheating on me, you're going to become a drug addict or an alcoholic. My eternal family has now been destroyed. That's all they're going to be hearing almost no matter what words you say. That's why we recommend keeping it safe, the right time and setting and minimizing the words, because it's likely going to go bad no matter what you do.

John Dehlin [01:59:34] And that takes us back to the concept of acceptance. You should just accept that it's never going to be as good as Margi's response. Or is my response to Margi. It's going to be likely. Tears and weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth and sometimes even anger and shouting. Now, you don't have to engage in that, but you should just expect something really bad, and then hopefully you're pleasantly surprised, but you can make it worse. And so what I'm telling you, Thomas, is there's a strategy behind less is more. And the strategy is that over time, if you make them feel safe, if you make them feel like you're never going to try and convert them them out of the church, if you never try and shove the reasons why you've left the church at them over time, psychologically, you're not creating the backfire effect, and you're making them feel safe.

John Dehlin [02:00:26] And once you've made them feel safe, over time, you actually increase the likelihood that someday they might ask you what the things were that caused you to lose your faith. And that's the strategy, Thomas. It's not that you're never going to tell your spouse or your kids or your parents or your siblings or your loved ones what the things were. It's that you're going to have a higher likelihood of them actually caring and Wanting to learn themselves if you haven't made them feel defensive and if you haven't already generated in them the defensiveness of the backfire effect. So that's the strategy behind less is more.

John Dehlin [02:01:08] And Thomas, I hope that makes sense. And what I want now to do is take us to the next role play. Role play number two is handling attempts to debate and rescue around content. Now, we talked about this a little bit, but what often is going to happen is you're going to feel like you want to descend into the argument and they're going to feel like they want to rescue you or save you or debate. Debate about the reasons why you lost your faith. And so what I'm trying to say is you don't want to ever do that. You don't want to get into that debate.

John Dehlin [02:01:42] It just leads to tension, it just leads to arguments. There's this saying, you never can convert someone out of a position emotionally or no, sorry, you can't convert someone out of a position they arrived at emotionally with logic or evidence or reason.

John Dehlin [02:02:00] They likely arrived at their faith from an emotional place. And you're not going to talk them out of it using facts or evidence or logic. And so you don't want to try. And so the best you want to do is not get into the specifics. And then if you need to, if they're really insistent on wanting to learn, you refer them to resources that they can check out on their own where you're not their teacher. So let's now move to the role play number two, Margi, which is handling attempts to debate or rescue about content. So what we'll do is we'll jump to the part of the role play where one of us is the believing rescuer and the other is the believer who's going to, you know, who's going to try and either put up a boundary or actually engage in the debate.

John Dehlin [02:02:54] Now, Carah, you and I role played this a little bit when you were the believing parent. Parent where we were trying to get into the problem. So let's just role play really quickly. So I'm, I'm the person who's lost their faith, you're the believer. We're going to remind people what that role play is like. So I'm going to say I'm going to do a bad role play of, of attempting to debate. So. So, mom, I've discovered that some things about the church aren't true. Did you know that Joseph Smith was a polygamist?

Carah Burrell [02:03:24] You don't know about that? I don't know about that?

John Dehlin [02:03:27] No, no, no, listen, listen.

Carah Burrell [02:03:28] You've got some wacky sources.

John Dehlin [02:03:30] No, no, no, listen. The church's own website has an essay about polygamy and it says that Joseph smith had over 30 wives.

Carah Burrell [02:03:36] You know those things can be hacked. I don't believe.

John Dehlin [02:03:39] No, mom, I'm talking about the church's own website.

Carah Burrell [02:03:41] No, even if he did, you know that he's a prophet of God and it was those things, they're ceilings for, you know, eternity. But you're, you're trying to like, look for reasons and try to find reasons to not believe that he was a

John Dehlin [02:03:52] prophetic 14 year old girls.

Carah Burrell [02:03:55] Read the Book of Mormon and you'll feel the spirit.

John Dehlin [02:03:57] No, mom, listen, just listen to me. Read the Book of Mormon. No, mom, will you listen to me? Will you listen to me for just a second, please? This is important. Joseph Smith married 14 year olds. He married other men's wives. He, he, he engaged in polyandry.

Carah Burrell [02:04:11] That was a normal thing back then. You're, you were just completely looking for reasons to go and smoke cigarettes with your friends behind the door.

John Dehlin [02:04:19] Mom, Joseph Smith was a, was a sexual predator. He was a pedophile file.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:04:24] Well, all right, if you want to believe that, go ahead and go smoke cigarettes now with your friends if that's what makes you sleep at night. But you know the truth. You know that he was the prophet of the restoration. You know that you can't deny the spirit that you felt. You know the Book of Mormons. True. No other man could write that book. So I don't care what he did. He's obviously a prophet. I know it and you know it. But whatever, whatever, John.

John Dehlin [02:04:46] Okay, that was great. And I hope you, you know, you probably, if you've already tried this with bleeding family and friends, you know that that's often how it goes. Those, it's worthless. Okay. So now Margi, let's model a different approach. So go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:00] So I'm a little bit confused because I was going to have us modeling as the, how would you put it? Non believing. I don't really love but to the believing because for me that's where I was envisioning oftentimes at like family gatherings. You, you don't want to talk about it. You are living your life as has and moved on from the church, but you have believing people coming up, trying to bring it up, trying to say,

John Dehlin [02:05:26] okay, so let's do it. So I'm going to be either way works, but I'm going to be the believer. You're going to be the non believer.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:34] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [02:05:35] I'm going to come at you with either wanting to know what happened or debating with you and.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:40] Do I know you?

John Dehlin [02:05:40] Well, let's just say that I'm. I'm the average parent or sibling.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:45] Okay, so you're an average sibling to me.

John Dehlin [02:05:48] Yeah, sibling. Let's just say I'm your. I'm your. I mean, yeah, these things kind of matter.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:53] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:05:54] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:54] Am I close to you?

John Dehlin [02:05:55] Yeah. Let's say I'm your sibling and you lost your faith and I'm the return missionary. Ap. I've read all the apologetics and I want to get into it with you. And what I want you to role model for us is healthy boundaries and how to handle, you know, the, the, the attempts at rescuing or debating.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:15] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:06:16] Is that okay?

Margi Dehlin [02:06:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:17] Okay. So, Sister Margi.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:21] Hi, Jed.

John Dehlin [02:06:23] So you just, you know, I heard that you had the talk with mom and dad and I heard you lost your faith and I've heard you've been. You've probably been on Mormon Stories podcast or reading the CES letter, and I just want you to know, know that I have read Fair Mormon. I. I've read it. I know all the answers and I'm eager to find out what are the things that cause you lose your faith and. Let's talk about it.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:48] Yeah, well, I appreciate what you're trying to do here in connection, trying to connect with me around it. I actually, I don't really feel like. Like it's a good time or place to do that, but I appreciate you making the effort.

John Dehlin [02:07:03] No, no, seriously, like, this is important and I. I want you to know I can really help you. So let me just ask you if it's okay. Was it Book of Mormon historicity? Was it that? Was it the steel and the horses in the Book of Mormon? Is that what caused you to lose your faith? Because I've got answers for that.

Carah Burrell [02:07:18] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:18] I can really see this is important to you right now, but I. Because we're about ready to have dinner. I just in. It's kind of a fan. I just don't feel like this is. And you know what? I. To be honest with you, I value our relationship. You know, in a way that I value it more than this conversation. So I value it way too much to actually have this conversation with you.

John Dehlin [02:07:41] But I'm strong. I want you to know that. I have my testimony. You could never shake it. You could never affect my testimony. I care about you and I just really want to know. Was it polygamy? Was it Joseph Smith's polygamy? I want to. I've got answers. I can tell you. You.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:55] Yeah, I hear that. And I think we're getting ready to have dinner, so I'm. It's probably not the time or place to have this.

John Dehlin [02:08:02] What if you don't have the dinner excuse?

Margi Dehlin [02:08:04] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [02:08:04] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:05] Then it would be like, I value you too much to have this conversation with you. I feel. I feel your desire to have it, and I value this. I. I value our relationship way more than to have this conversation.

John Dehlin [02:08:18] I promise. I promise you it's not going to affect our relationship. I will.

Carah Burrell [02:08:21] Will.

John Dehlin [02:08:22] I will love you no matter what. I just want you to tell me because I want to help you, frankly.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:28] So don't worry about our relationship.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:29] I hear that from you, and I'm still not going to have the conversation with you. What I would love to hear about is how it's been since you've been back and what's been lighting you up lately.

John Dehlin [02:08:40] Okay, so that was kind of.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:42] I would redirect.

John Dehlin [02:08:43] Okay?

Margi Dehlin [02:08:43] So I said it twice. So if you have someone that keeps coming at you, repetition is a boundary in and of itself to repeat what you say. People get that usually really, really quickly. Another thing you can do is just redirect and say, I really appreciate that. You know what? Something I've been curious about, though, is what you've been at. And then redirect it in an earnest way around a conversation you actually want to have with the person. Okay. So that's another way you can go about it sometimes. You know, I've been in situations before where I've actually been physically cornered by someone in a. Like a party situation where I've just physically left them, where I'm like. I've tried all the stops I've tried. And so then you create a physical boundary of having to actually just. Just leave.

John Dehlin [02:09:32] Okay?

Margi Dehlin [02:09:33] So those are all boundaries.

John Dehlin [02:09:34] I love that. Let's. Let's do a quite. Let's do a slight modulation on the role play.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:38] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:09:39] In this case, we're besties. You know that we have unconditional love.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:44] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:09:44] You know that I'm safe. You know that I'm going to love you no matter what. You know that. And you know that I'm going to believe. I'm going to believe what you tell me about the church and about the church history. And so I'm going to ask you,

Margi Dehlin [02:09:57] how about I do that? And then you model it.

John Dehlin [02:09:59] Okay? Okay. All right. So you are the believing wife. I'm the believing husband. I'm the non believing husband. Now we have a relationship that's a five. And you're going to ask me to be your teacher, and I'm going to tell you kind of one tip I recommend. Sometimes, even when somebody really wants to know, when you feel safe, I'm in a role play, not being someone's teacher. Okay. So that's this role play for the. For the time codes.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:10:28] Not playing, not being someone's teacher. So go ahead and ask the question.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:32] Okay. Hey, I've been thinking about, you know, when you came and you told me that you were having issues and I was curious. I really. I'm feeling like I want to kind of connect with you about it. Is there something you would recommend that I read or. I kind of start with ask me

John Dehlin [02:10:50] to teach you to. Ask me to tell you. Oh, in the role play, ask me to tell you what I learned.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:10:59] That's what most people do.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:00] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:11:01] You just gave the answer in your question, so. Sorry, sorry. Roll back. What you're going to do is the believing spouse is ask me to teach you. You. What I've learned that caused me to lose my faith.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:12] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:11:12] And I'm in a role model, not being your teacher.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:15] Okay. Hey, love, I've been thinking a lot about you and kind of the things that you mentioned the other day, and I was really curious. What. What is it that you've learned about Joseph Smith that's so disturbing? What. What have you found out?

John Dehlin [02:11:31] Okay, so, sweetie, I. It means a lot to me that you'd ask. It's so rare that people ask. And. And you're. You're giving me a lot of trust by asking, and I really do. There's part of me that really wants to share with you everything that I've learned, but there's a couple things that I'm worried about. One is that you're going to feel like I'm trying to take your faith away, and I'd never want that to happen.

John Dehlin [02:11:59] But also, I don't want other family members to be able to blame me for taking. I don't want your parents to think that I caused you to doubt. I want this to be your journey and I don't want to influence it. And there's this idea of a dual relationship where I just. I want you to figure things out for yourself, and I don't want to in any way negatively influence your life and your journey. And so what I'd like to do is instead of teaching you, I. It's. If it's okay. I want to point you to some essays that the Church has published. They're called the Gospel Topics essays.

John Dehlin [02:12:36] They're on the church's website. There's ones on polygamy, there's ones on the Book of Mormon. There's ones on Joseph Smith's use of a stone in the hat in the Book of Mormon. There's one on DNA in the Book of Mormon. These are some of the issues. But I, I would rather you start the journey of, of self discovery and learning.

John Dehlin [02:12:55] And, and I think a really safe, healthy place to start is on the church's own website with the Gospel Topics essays. And what we can do is maybe I can give you those links. You can start with those.

John Dehlin [02:13:06] And then once you've gone through those, if you have more questions, I can point you to other resources like Mormon Stories Podcast or the CES Letter for further learning. But how do you feel about having your own learning journey and me, me not mixing up our marriage and our relationship with. With trying to be your teacher?

Margi Dehlin [02:13:27] That feels great to me.

John Dehlin [02:13:29] You sure?

Margi Dehlin [02:13:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:30] Do you feel like I'm kind of blowing you off?

Margi Dehlin [02:13:34] No, I don't. I think it makes sense. I'll start with the, the church essays. I didn't know they had that.

John Dehlin [02:13:39] Okay. Beautiful. Okay. So that is, you know, sort of handling attempts to debate and rescue about content or requests for you to be the teacher future. And those are some approaches that we have found worked. Carah, do you have any quick reactions, comments from listeners or reactions yourself?

Disclosing to Difficult or Toxic People

Carah Burrell [02:13:59] The, the main comment that I'm seeing is, you know, when things are a little bit more intensely high stakes, where like you're going to be talking with somebody and this is a toxic person, but you need to tell them something. And you could have all the right strategies. Remember going back to Leah's thing and you can show up in all the right ways. Margi had to come around here and grab a microphone. Cause she had that very important point to make that like, what's your advice for people? Where they know they need to have these conversations with people, but they're working with a very difficult individual and they're kind of setting themselves up as best they can for a successful conversation, but the other person might just be too toxic to handle. What would your advice be?

Margi Dehlin [02:14:41] Yeah, I think so. One thing I would add to where John says, come in with low expectations with regard to how people. I have a letting go of people's reaction, like practicing how you want to show up what your intention is and then letting go of Their reaction, their response there. Because that is not. You don't, you can't control that, that's beyond you. And they're going to just have it, you know. So what I would rather have you focus on are things that actually are within your control. So like your tone, are you emotionally connected to the person you know? You know, have you kind of taken care of yourself, kind of arriving?

Margi Dehlin [02:15:21] But yeah, toxic people. I'm trying to think, you know, I would guard against really communicating overly with toxic people in general. I think that's some of the sorting we do when we intentionalize why am I coming out to this person or sharing? And then I would probably, I might if I had, if I really felt like I had a strong intention to come out to someone who's volatile, let's just say aggressive at times, or someone I don't have a lot of trust in, then I would probably really cater it to like informant information and probably be prepared to use a lot of boundary statements. So get very clear about what I'm going to say and what I'm not going to say.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:09] And holding boundaries and that's, that's really difficult work for most of us because I think for many of us we think the hard part is setting a boundary, but actually the hardest part is like that point where you're holding it in conversation because it feels really uncomfortable. I don't know, you know, when you're saying it again, that's holding a boundary. Like this is not something I don't feel comfortable sharing with you right now. Or and this is not, yeah, I still don't feel comfortable sharing, sharing with, with you right now. And you're basically saying I've, I've sometimes had to say it four times, you know, or redirecting and trying to hold the redirection or this is, this is very skilled.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:49] It's like PhD level. So I'm like, have a whole lot of compassion for yourself. Take good care of yourself. Be sure that this is someone you really have to disclose to and get your boundaries straight and just make sure you're coming at the right level of intimacy.

Carah Burrell [02:17:04] See, and I have two follow up question and a comment to that is when I have those conversations with my family. Remember you just said about you know, having low expectations and if my intention for this conversation is to not change their mind, it's only to communicate information. My intentions for their behavior are going to be. My expectations for their behavior, I mean, are actually going to be quite low, that I'm going to change their mind. All of that is just not even part of the entering my brain at that point. And so remember you're talking about like when John was role playing with me and it's like, oh, if only I could just say this one thing that will change your mind.

Carah Burrell [02:17:37] Giving up that sense with like a toxic person. If you can already admit in your mind that this person has a history of. Anytime I've been vulnerable, anytime that I have needed help, anytime that I have done X, Y and Z with this person, how have they reacted? Okay, what would give me, what would inform any new decision that they would act differently. So just giving up a sense that if I can communicate in this one way, they'll absolutely see it my way or whatever.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:00] Letting go. Like.

Carah Burrell [02:18:01] So, yes, when you're talking about that really uncomfortable boundary, I've been in that space where it's like, oh, I want to say something, I want to say something. Oh, I have a good comeback to that. Oh, I know that if, but just like, it's not worth it, it's not worth it, it's not worth it, it's not worth it. Just communicate the information and then suck it in and then, you know, go text my sister later or something else where I can get it out. But it's not in this situation with my parents right now. And then on top of that, so Stephanie was asking where she can find more information about this level two, level three stuff that, that you were, that you're mentioning and kind of putting people into these different.

John Dehlin [02:18:36] I, I, I've thought about that. Unless you do, do you have a quick reaction to that?

Carah Burrell [02:18:38] Yeah. Okay, speak more to that and then where they can find more information on that.

John Dehlin [02:18:42] Yeah, so, so this, this whole series on Mormon Stories podcast is called the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. And as I mentioned at the beginning, there's a website called mormonfaithcrisis.com where there's 70 hours of free coaching. And already me and Margi and Natasha have given this content away for free. You can go there and get it for free. And in there we record a full two and a half day retreat where we talk in depth about mental health, going through a faith transition, communicating with believing family and friends, healthy sexuality, and we talk in depth about conscious parenting and we also talk about these levels of intimacy.

John Dehlin [02:19:22] And there's several individual episodes where we've gone into for another two or three hours on communicating with children after a crisis of faith, communicating with your bishop and ward leaders after a crisis of faith. You know, just coming out to believing family and friends, all the different, you know, things grieving. So we want to just point you to that website, Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis, which is@mormonfaithcrisis.com 70 hours of free coach that one retreat. If you just google Mormon Stories Retreat and just watch that two and a half day retreat, that is probably the single most thing I'm most proud of in the 16 years I've been doing Mormon Stories podcast is the content that me and Margi and Natasha have developed, recorded and shared with you guys.

John Dehlin [02:20:09] So we will be doing more of this here on Mormon Stories podcast. So you can expect a weekly episode on the this going forward but mormonfaithcrises.com is a great place to start. I will say just really quickly that we want to make sure that if you value this part, this type of content on Mormon Stories Podcast and you're not already a donor, we would ask you to please consider voluntarily making a donation if you really want to see this content continue again.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:43] And

John Dehlin [02:20:45] we want to make this financially sustainable. So you can go to mormonfaithcrisis.com, click on the donate button and become a monthly subscriber. 10 bucks a month, 20 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month, anything you can afford. We will use that to again pay for care services to, you know, provide Margi a thank you for her expertise. We're going to have Natasha on just this Thursday about healing from sexual shame.

John Dehlin [02:21:09] We would ask you to please support this series so that we can keep providing it to you for free. Again, if you can't donate and support, you don't have to. We give you this for free anyway. But if you are in the position to support, please do so. Also you can always make a donation through the super chat feature on YouTube.

John Dehlin [02:21:30] A lot of you are benefiting that and I think Facebook has a feature called Stars, but that's my kind of of answer is check out Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast and check out in future weeks because we're going to be coming back to this topic and we're going to make sure make it really easy for you to find this content on Mormon Stories. Margi, did you want to add something?

Margi Dehlin [02:21:49] Yeah, I was just going to say if Stephanie's question was about levels of relationship in particular, that's something maybe I'll consider writing a blog about. It's something I do a lot in coaching work with people, but I don't think I've written about it and I do know it is on Gift of the Morning Faith Crisis and we can do it here. If that's something that's interesting to people, that is something we can go into greater depth. And then one last thing too. Was it Andrew who wrote about the toxic.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:17] Someone wrote a comment about the toxic person. And kind of one thing I wanted to just say about that is something we don't give enough thought to around kind of of mental health and good boundaries is sometimes you don't need to engage with a toxic person at all, period.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:36] And I think because of the way we've been brought up and how other centered we are and especially if that person's a family member. But we also have a difficult time with boundaries. And so you know, there is something to deciding sometimes that the conversation does not need to be had bad. And if it affects your mental health going into that to, to kind of feel like you're, you have to do that. It, that is a great reason to say no right there. You don't have to, you don't have to take the hit.

John Dehlin [02:23:10] Yeah, I, I so many of you made comments and shared your experiences on the Mormon Stories blog. I'm just going to share one. Melissa writes, we have never felt the need to announce our decision to resign and you could, you could exchange for that your loss of faith or whatever. She goes on to say part of that decision was in watching others deal with the backlash of their coming out. However, we are very open to share when people ask. I have found peace in setting healthy boundaries, being mindful of the intent of questions and pausing before responding. Three years later and our family is much happier and healthier.

John Dehlin [02:23:46] There's hope, but it's not a race. Just take it one day at a time and do what's right for you. I'm going to add to that there are other people that just comment. For some it's the right answer is never coming out. It's never having this conversation at all. And we want to make sure you feel the freedom to decide that maybe your parents have cancer and they're in their 90s and you just realize that you're going to choose compassion over authenticity and say with their few months that are remaining in their lives or they're just toxic people where they're never going to get it.

John Dehlin [02:24:16] Maybe the parents in their 70s who are just never going to be able to accept and you might just decide that for you the answer is to actually never have this conversation at all. And so we're going to have a future. Part 2 of this episode where we go into more depth, take more questions and comments. Talk about some of these tools more in depth and explore the many variety of options which can include never having this conversation at all. Do you agree with that? Margi?

Margi Dehlin [02:24:44] I really agree with that. I think think being able to identify that this is something that's very personal to you and you know, being able to be in this place, the power to choose who you allow in to see that is absolutely a key component and it's a completely viable choice. It can be a really, really healthy choice. I see this a lot of times when people live across the country from their families families and you know, there's not. But you know, yeah, listen to, listen to yourself. Honor yourself. Honor your own values. And you know, there are many, many ways I feel like to do this in a healthy, honoring kind of way.

John Dehlin [02:25:30] I love it. And with that there's a comment I'm going to share. JC writes, thank you so much for your work and effort. I think this is to all of us in helping so many people live true were to themselves and overcome trauma. You are doing an amazing job. And Margi looks absolutely beautiful. So we just had to give that shout out.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:51] Margi, well that's very nice.

John Dehlin [02:25:53] Thank you. Did I embarrass you? Well, it's JC's fault. So JC, thank you for embarrassing Margi. I appreciate it. Okay, so this is only part one. We've gone a little bit over what we wanted to. There's so many comments that we weren't able to get to to. There are comments on the Mormon Stories podcast page and other things that we want to share. I do want to share one last thing. We just announced the Thrive Initiative which is a new website called thrivebeyondreligion.com where we're going to be having a lot of events. So many of you have been asking how do I go to a faith crisis retreat?

Community Resources and Closing Part One

John Dehlin [02:26:29] How do I meet other people who need our support? So there's two things I'm going to sort of just plug to end. If you're needing support, if you want to go to a retreat, one of our faith crisis retreats. If you need extra support, if you go to thrivebeyondreligion.com events you will find several events that are coming up. One of them is a faith transition retreat that Margi and I, Natasha, will be at. And the only reason I'm plugging it is because I know that these events have changed many lives. Lives. So if you go to thrivebeyondreligion.com events, find the Faith Transitions Retreat. It's October 15th to 17th, 2021.

John Dehlin [02:27:12] It's going to be in Provo. And you can register today for that retreat. And you know that is something people have been asking for. I want to let you know about it. There's another event. The next Thrive event that's open for registration is Thrive Day in November. So if you guys heard about the big Thrive event we had in the Salt palace two years ago, we're having another one. And today is the first day we're opening registration. That is November 14th at 10am in the Salt Palace. And you can register for that today. We are planning on 5,000 people attending. We've got a lot of really cool things in store.

John Dehlin [02:27:53] We also have Thrive St. George on February 11, and we also have Thrive Alberta, Canada also on February, sorry, on January 22nd. And we want to let you know that we want to host more Thrive events in your area. So if you want to actually host a Thrive event, you can now go to the Thrive website and you can click on the page how to host an event. And we will help you host your own Thrive event wherever you live.

John Dehlin [02:28:32] And we also are looking to create face to face communities through Thrive. And you could also go to thrivebeyondreligion.com right now and create a local face to face community where you can meet people in real life to get the support you need. So those are some resources I wanted to let you guys know about. Margi, did you want to add one last thing? Thing before we go?

Margi Dehlin [02:28:52] I was just gonna get back to just sending our final support and love around a really difficult, challenging topic. And these are really, I feel like advanced level skills that most of us, you know, you know, they're new for most of us and we're asking a lot of ourselves in trying to kind of show up in these ways during a difficult time for ourselves. So just wanted to send love, support and a recognition of that and then just, you know, a little ask of just being good to yourselves as you are navigating this tough terrain.

John Dehlin [02:29:34] I love it. Well, it's so great to have you, Markie. And we're grateful that you're willing to just volunteer your time to help people in need. And you're a lovely companion and partner. Partner. So thank you for joining us. Thank you, Carah, thank you so much for, for being co host and for moderating the comments and doing all the production. Any final thoughts or words you want to share today?

Carah Burrell [02:29:59] Any day where Margi's here and there's a role play is a fabulous time. And you killed Nine. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to, like, really bring back my improv rob from high school.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:11] It's amazing.

Carah Burrell [02:30:12] I really feel like I'm doing my theater director proud right now.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:16] Okay. It's a gift to witness and your insight carrot.

Carah Burrell [02:30:20] That's okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:21] Amazing insight.

Carah Burrell [02:30:22] It's all right. I listened to some good podcasts before. I'm just regurgitating things I've heard. Just kidding.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:28] I'm seeing you duck my compliment, but, you know.

Carah Burrell [02:30:30] Okay, good. All right. Thank you, Margi. I will not boundary your compliment.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:34] Never.

Carah Burrell [02:30:34] I will accept it. I will sit with it. I hear your compliment and I'm gonna go home feeling really positive about myself. Beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:30:42] All right, well, Carah, it's great to have you. Thanks so much for all you do. And many people have said you've breathed a breath of fresh air into Mormon Stories podcast, and I want to echo that. And thank you for doing that.

Carah Burrell [02:30:54] Oh, thanks.

John Dehlin [02:30:55] Yeah. All right, everyone, you guys take care. And know again that we are going to continue this series. This Thursday afternoon, you can expect an episode with Natasha Helfer. We're going to be talking about healing from sexual Mormon shame. It's going to be really valuable. It's going to be part of this gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis series. And again, if you value this type of content, if you're not a donor to Mormon Stories Podcast and you want to see this content continue, you can make it happen by donating. Go To Mormon Faith Crisis.com Click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor and we will provide this content as long as you find value in it.

John Dehlin [02:31:32] So thank you so much. Thanks for all the support. Please be good to each other and stay in touch. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com provide us with feedback and subscribe on all the different social medias. Check out our TikTok. Carah. I mean, I'm hoping that maybe some of these role plays will end up on Tick Tock.

Carah Burrell [02:31:50] Yeah, I edited the one last one with Margi. I put that one on Instagram because it's like nine minutes long, but I didn't want to edit it down because it's so important. Important. So I'll try my best to put some of these on Tick Tock because I have a three minute limit there now.

John Dehlin [02:32:02] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:32:02] But I think I took some notes. I think there's some really good little nuggets that we can post that'll be helpful for people.

John Dehlin [02:32:08] Beautiful. Yeah. Well, I also have to say, check out us. Check us out on Tick Tock or Tick tock channels, Mormon Stories podcast on Tick Tock and we have over 70, 000 followers now and over 1.2 million likes. And our Tick Tock is really helping a lot of people and caring. Sarah, you have been leading that effort, so thank you.

Carah Burrell [02:32:27] Now it's the guests. It's just me doing this, but it's people sitting in this chair pouring out their like life and all of this vulnerability that we are so grateful people take the time and effort and put themselves out there that we're even able to distill it and put it into something that will be hopefully validating and helpful and spur people to go onto the YouTube or the the podcast app to go listen to the full thing and facilitate their own healing and growth and just continue onward and upward and all that.

John Dehlin [02:32:57] I love it. I love it. So check out us on TikTok. And finally, if you like this, email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com and let us know. Or leave a comment in on YouTube or wherever you get this episode. And then if you have ideas on how we can make this time better, make it more efficient, make it more constructive, things we left out, things you want us to cover in future episodes. We will literally generate content, content that meets your needs. So please just communicate with us, leave comments on our blog, leave comments on YouTube or email us@mormonstories gmail.com and we'll get you the content you need. Thanks everybody. Love you guys. Stay in touch and we'll see you guys all again very soon for another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care. Thanks, Carah.

Carah Burrell [02:33:39] Thanks, guys.

John Dehlin [02:33:40] Thanks, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:41] Thank you.

Part Two Introduction and What Is Working

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1476b

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, Dr. John Dehlin. It is September 28, 2021, and I could not be more excited. I think that's true. I could not be more excited for today's episode. I am so thrilled and excited to have back in the house the one, the only, the amazing Margi Dehlin. Hey, Margi Dehlin.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:26] Hello, everyone.

Carah Burrell [00:00:27] Welcome.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] Welcome back.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:28] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Why are you here?

Margi Dehlin [00:00:29] Why am I here? What am I doing here?

John Dehlin [00:00:33] Margi is here for part two of our discussion that we started a few weeks ago on telling loved ones about losing your faith. And we were able to kind of COVID a framework which dealt a lot with acceptance and what I call the. The Nephi complex, which is the fact that so many. Well, what I want you to do is go back and watch part one. It's a super important foundation for what you are going to be hearing today. So episode 1476A. Go back and watch that and then come back to this. If you haven't seen it or if you're joining us live, you can listen to this today and then go back and listen to that next time.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] Either way, we're here for part two of of our discussion that is part of the series on the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast. So if you go to mormonfaithcrisis.com right now, there's over 70 hours of free coaching to help people through a faith crisis. And literally 10 times a day, someone messages me on Instagram or Facebook or email and says, I just, I'm starting a faith crisis. I'm about to die. My marriage is about to end. Please help me. And my first reaction is, have you checked out the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast, which me and Natasha Helfer and Margi created a few years ago?

John Dehlin [00:01:50] Ine say no, and then I say, go there. But what we want to do is start bringing this type of content to Mormon Stories podcast, the regular stream with the improved video, with the improved lighting and audio, and with the much beloved and all around super popular Care Burrell. Hey, Care Burrell.

Carah Burrell [00:02:10] Hey, how are you doing? People who follow me on Instagram will know that I have a little bit of a voice problem right now. So I got lozenges, I've got some tea. I won't be talking very much today because. Cause I don't want to cough into the microphone, but I'm excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] It's good to have you.

Carah Burrell [00:02:24] Yeah, thanks.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] Yeah. So what you can expect is around once a week Someone like Natasha, someone like Margi, a coach or a therapist who specializes in healing and growth for people beyond Mormonism. We will be releasing episodes on the Mormon story stream for this type of content. So that's what you're in store for today. I do want to do a quick plug for the thrive beyond religion or the Thrive beyond Mormonism conference. Thrive Day 2021 is November 14th in the Salt Palace. Sarah Edmondson, Edmondson, Edmonton of a little bit culty podcast, former nexium victim and author of the book scarred and also co star in the HBO series the Vow will be keynoting at Thrive day along with lance Allred, former NBA basketball player, first legally deaf NBA basketball player, played with LeBron James and the Cleveland Cavaliers.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Recovery from the Allred group, former, you know, polygamous cult. Lance Allred is going to be keynoting. Natasha will be there, I'll be there. Bill Real will be there. Radio Free Mormon will be there. Monica Crowfoot from the native American women episode that we did is going to be there. And Luna Corbden from the book recovery agency and many, many more. Lots of cool tiktokers. Carah, your voice isn't working.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:45] I know.

Carah Burrell [00:03:45] I am going to absolutely my own words that I'm like I'm not going to be talking very much until I have something to say, obviously. No. Yeah. So should I announce announced that we're doing a tick tock panel. So I'm really excited for this. Clint asked me to put together a tick tock panel. So we put our heads together of like flying different people in honestly even to come to this panel. So we have Kyleen, we have Xmo Lex, we have ex Mormon Mindy, Jack Mormon. His name is Jack Price. So Jack Mormon who does the like lips and eyes things. He's so funny.

John Dehlin [00:04:15] He's so funny.

Carah Burrell [00:04:16] Jordan and McKay, Devil Trout and me. So if those names ring a bell and you're on TikTok, you'll know that we got like some real heavy hitters, some real hilarious people. So I think around 1 o' clock at the thrive event, we're gonna be doing a different panel, different Q and A. I'm not quite sure exactly what it's gonna look like yet, but it's gonna be so much fun. So forgive my voice. I kind of sound kind of cool though. So I'm not opposed to talking to the microphone. I kind of sound like really? I sound like kind of a cool chick. I sound like somebody who works at Quicksilver who's like, hey, can I get A room ready for you.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:46] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [00:04:48] Anyway, so I'm really excited for that. People please come out and we'll do like a meet and greet and stuff too. So if those names ring a bell and you're excited about that, come we can get like pictures and hang out and just. Yeah, just like a meet and greet at Thrive as well with all these people. So yeah, it's gonna be fun.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] All right. Yeah. And what are you guys going to be doing in your little skit? Like, what is it?

Carah Burrell [00:05:10] We have an hour and I want to say probably the second half for Q and A and then the first half I think, think I don't know what it's going to look like quite yet, but it's going to be phenomenal. Cuz I've got like some of the most amazing people.

John Dehlin [00:05:20] So like comedy kind of maybe a little bit or I am not sure.

Carah Burrell [00:05:23] I want to make sure. Whatever it is, it's going to be the best use of everyone's time. I haven't decided yet what I think we're going to be doing, but all right. We got all the coolest people put our heads together, we'll come up something

John Dehlin [00:05:33] fun at a minimum. Yeah, cool and fun. So we, we appreciate your patience as we do public service announcements. It's literally to help you heal and grow and thrive. And we want everyone to be there. This is a nonprofit event. Our friends the Martins are putting down like 15 grand just to reserve the Salt Palace. Nobody's making any money off of this. We are paying our speakers, we're paying our speakers airfare, giving a speaker fee, but nobody's profiting from this event. It's 25 bucks a person for a full day of healing and growth. We're going to help you meet people and all of these cool people that I mentioned are going to have booths.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] So if you want to meet, you know, if you want to buy merch from, you know, Carah, if you want to meet a Radio Free Mormon, a Bill Real. If you want to meet Monica Crowfoot or buy a have Luna Corbin sign their book, you know, any of these tick tockers. We will have booths available for these people that you may want to meet so you can meet and greet them during the breaks, during lunch, etc. So it's going to be amazing. Please tell the world, please come support us so that we don't reserve the Salt palace and then nobody shows. That's probably not going to happen.

John Dehlin [00:06:40] But more importantly, buy your ticket now before it sells out. Because the Thrive for Women conference which is actually this weekend already sold out. They had to upgrade the venue three times. So before you aren't able to get your ticket, go to thrivebeyondreligion.com events. Carol will put that in the show notes and in the. In the comments, and we'll make sure buy your tickets now, and we're gonna have a great time. Okay, so that's enough for the public service announcements for now.

John Dehlin [00:07:09] You are in for what I think is a really important show. Last time we talked, Margi and I kind of set a foundation that, if I were just to summarize, the foundation would be that the best thing you can do when you have a faith crisis and you plan on letting your loved ones know is practice acceptance, which means that they may surprise you pleasantly, but more likely than not, you're going to disappoint them and they're going to be sad, and you should just accept that.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] Today, what we're going to do is we are going to go through kind of micro details on the process of coming out. So here's what we're going to cover. We're going to cover why, you know, thinking through the why of whether or not you come out. There are reasons to not disclose, and there are reasons to disclose. So we're going to cover that. We're going to cover when to come out or not come out. We're going to cover who you should and shouldn't come out to. And we're going to talk about how to come out and what maybe what to say or what not to say.

John Dehlin [00:08:20] And I also have to say that sometimes people, members of the LGBT community have. Have said to me, john, using the term coming out is offensive to us because disclosing about a faith crisis, you know, shouldn't be using the same language about, like, coming out about your sexuality. And I'm torn about that only because I've had LGBT people also tell me that disclosing about their loss of faith was actually more difficult than disclosing their. Their sexuality or their gender identity. Now, having said that, I want to be respectful to the LGBTQ community, so I'm going to try not to use the term coming out, but if I mess up, you guys can correct me or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] So that's kind of my intro for today. We are live streaming this on YouTube. We're super grateful for all of our YouTube people, and we have also solicited your comments and feedback. So we want to just ask our YouTube people who are listening if you've got a particular situation, a concern Whatever it is, we would love your comments or questions, and we'll try and entertain those live. So, without any further ado, Margi, what would you like to add to the introduction you just heard?

Margi Dehlin [00:09:36] Well, I don't think I need to add anything into the. To the introduction, honestly. We could move to what's Working if you wanted, but you did a very nice job on that intro.

John Dehlin [00:09:46] Okay, so the what's Working segment, that's a good idea. Thank you. Love. The what's Working segment is something that we did on the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast with Natasha, where we just start the episode by just talking about one thing that's working in our lives to help us heal or grow or have better mental health or better relationships or whatever. So, Margi, I'm gonna ask you to go first. What's working for you right now, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:10:11] Okay, John, so something. I have a couple things. One thing that is working for me recently. Just last night, John and I made an amazing apple crisp. And what really worked about that apple crisp was a double crumb. I did a double. I just doubled the crumb kind of part of the recipe, and it was delicious. We had a couple of our kids come over. We turned on the outside lights, lit the fire. It was beautiful. So I'm just leaning into fall right now. The weather's changed a little bit, and I'm loving using our outdoor space, which we kind of. We worked on this past winter. So apple crisp, baby, Fall season. That's my first thing.

John Dehlin [00:11:01] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:02] And you were part of that, John. John was an important part of making that apple crisp.

John Dehlin [00:11:07] Yeah, that was actually fun to cook with you again. Like, when Covet happened, we started cooking a lot together, and that was a real joy. That was working for me quite a bit. It's just slowing down and cooking meals with my love. That kind of fell by the wayside as Covid has let up a little bit. And so it was so nice to cook with you again. I agree.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:25] Yeah. We're bringing it back.

John Dehlin [00:11:26] Bringing it back.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:27] We're bringing it back.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] Gosh darn it.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:28] The second thing, I kind of. I mentioned it in my Instagram feed, but I'll bring it up here. I received a book from a friend of mine, so shout out, Holly. And this is a book where it's not for everyone, probably, but it's just hit me up strong. It's daily. It has, like, a daily thought to it. It's written by Mark Nepo, who I actually hadn't heard of before the book, but I'M just loving it. I've been doing it the three days I get up, meditate and then read the little excerpt. I would probably say it maybe takes two or three minutes to read. And then I'm going to ask for a little journal for my birthday coming up.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:08] Because they ask little questions at the end that are really simple. Take you through a little process and an example of something lately. I was just telling John this morning, one of the most recent days was about how oftentimes with pain it brings up kind of the.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:27] It's called Chinese handcuffs. I don't know if you guys remember those weaves where you put your fingers in to the little weave paper and then you, when you try to get your, your fingers out, it tightens and you can't. And it was an analogy about pain that if you kind of, if, if you're acting against pain and trying to just sort of get out of it, it becomes tighter and it has like a tighter grip. Whereas if you lean in, if you lean into it and release into it, then you're able to kind of remove your fingers and that kind of sufferings lessened. Simple things like that.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:02] I don't know, it's meeting me where I live in a simple way every morning. So those are two things that are working for me right now.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] I love it. I love it. Well, you're working for me. That's one thing that's working. Having you work with me in this capacity, I appreciate it is also working for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:21] Thank you. That is also working for me.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] Because honestly, being in a marriage where we can partner on something that's meaningful, that gives, I don't know, that's. That's exhilarating, it's edifying and I love that. My brother Joel challenged me to meditate every morning because he felt like my brain was going crazy. Why are you laughing, Margi? That's rude. That's so rude. Carah, why are you laughing? That's also. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:47] There's nothing, there's nothing funny about that. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] So. No, he just felt like it might help me. So I've started meditating. Use the Waking up app by Sam Harris. And I've been meditating twice a day. And that's been nice. Just to do a little 10 minute guided meditation helps me be more aware of my brain as it tends to ruminate on things. And then also I have been listening to music a little more. I find that music helps soothe me a little bit. And I, I used to Love listening to music all the time. So I discovered rediscovering Jerry Rafferty. So you guys, if you've heard Right down the Line or Baker Street, Jerry Rafferty was like our super popular singer songwriter of the late 70s, early 80s, and I've been listening to one of his albums, and sometimes it gives me good feels. Yeah, so that's been working for me. Carah, your voice.

Carah Burrell [00:14:45] I gotta take myself off mute. Okay, that's coughing.

John Dehlin [00:14:47] What's working for you?

Carah Burrell [00:14:48] I like that you said music, because I think in this space, like, we get kind of obsessed with, like. Okay, if I'm not working now, I need to, like, be listening to something that'll help me for work. I need to be listening to another podcast, and I need to take so many breaks from thinking about anything Mormon related, religion related, psychology. I need to take a break from that stuff. So John knows this. I listen to Rocksteady and Caribbean Queen on this. On this playlist. I just literally have a playlist. And that's all I listen to for sometimes hours. I was driving into work today.

Carah Burrell [00:15:18] I'm like, I gotta get pumped, gotta get going, and I just can't do Rock Steady. Yeah. I love how good I sound in my. I can hear it. Thank you, Marky. Yeah, like, I just love songs that get me pumped and are like funky and make your hips move. And I totally forget about any worries or anything I have to do with work.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:35] So, yeah, that's brilliant.

Carah Burrell [00:15:36] Music that makes your hips move is my thing. That works.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] That's working for you, dude.

Carah Burrell [00:15:41] Like, if you're not here, I say I shouldn't say it, but I tell the machine to. You know the one that starts with an A? I just like Blankety Blank or same Play rock steady at volume 10. Oh, please do not turn on. Oh, my gosh. But anyway, all right. That's what works for me. A very other. My life is pretty much chaos otherwise, but that works really well.

John Dehlin [00:16:02] I love it. Okay, well, thanks, Carah. And thanks, Margi. And thanks our listeners. If listeners, if you want to share anything that's working for you. Yeah, we've got several listeners now tuned in. Go ahead and just type in on YouTube what's working for you, and we'll ask Carah to read just. She'll just. She can jump in and share anything that's working just here and there, just to kind of share the love. Because we know that, you know, what we're not setting up is a new religion with new cult leaders. Like, we know that many of you listening and watching are actually smarter or wiser than we are.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] So we would love to learn from you. That's part of what we do. Okay, so, Margi, let's dive in. I would have to say I said this yesterday in an amazing episode with. With Thomas and Cece Stokes, that by far the hardest part of a faith crisis is, is communicating with believing family and friends. I think I can just say that it's not the spiritual stuff. It's not losing God or Jesus if you lose it. It's. It's not even community. Those things are all huge. But I would say the biggest thing, number one big thing, is like, do I tell my spouse? Do I tell my parents?

Clarifying Intention and Values Before Disclosing

John Dehlin [00:17:17] How am I going to pull this off? And so that's why we're doing two full episodes on this. And so as we. As we kind of COVID this, let's start with why. Because I think, Margi, one of the things you often love to do is. Is focus on intention. Can you just introduce this idea of intention?

John Dehlin [00:17:40] I don't know if I'm putting you on the spot, but I would love you to talk just for a bit about intention and how that might color, you know, how that might help inform and make your coming out more effective. And then we can talk about reasons to not disclose and reasons to disclose. But anything you want to say about intention?

Margi Dehlin [00:18:03] Hmm, sure. I view connecting with the intention or the why. I. Okay, just on the spot. There are a couple things I connect with. The first is it tends to clarify. It tends to clarify a lot of things all at once.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:21] So by identifying why you're wanting to tell, what the purpose is for you to tell can often, I think, shed it sheds the extra. It clarifies kind of to you what's important. And usually it points to a value or two. So I really like it for that, the clarifying nature of it. But I also love that it becomes the driver.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:49] Especially I think, in situations that are as murky and uncomfortable as these, right. Where we're. We're talking about communicating something's something that's hard, something that's new to us, that feels uncertain, it becomes this driver. It becomes a momentum that pushes you forward. And that can be really helpful, I think, when we're feeling scared and we're feeling vulnerable.

John Dehlin [00:19:15] I love it. Yeah, I love it. And I'll add that I think one of the most important reasons to get really centered on your intention for disclosing is it can help you decide that in some instances, you really shouldn't be disclosing.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:30] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] Because if you're. If you're disclosing for the wrong reasons, it's just going to harm you and other people. You know, Margi, I'll tell this quick story. When we were first married, I sometimes wonder. I don't know, my personality is quirky. Sometimes I feel like if it's true, you get to say it no matter what. Even if it's harmful or hurtful. You just speak the truth.

John Dehlin [00:19:54] And I think I entered into our marriage hating lies and hating hiding things so much. I saw so much damage with secrets being kept and lies or things being hidden that I'm just like, nope, truth always wins. Truth in all circumstances.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] And. And sometimes I think in our arguments, I would. I would just say, hey, anything goes if it's true. And I think I learned pretty quickly with you. Do you. Do you remember the quote you shared with me one time? Should I share it or do you want to share it?

Margi Dehlin [00:20:26] I don't remember. Is it around causing harm or something?

John Dehlin [00:20:29] I think you said to me once, truth without compassion is cruelty. Oh, you remember that? How come I remember that and you don't? And you said it, told it to me. Now you're probably like, she's probably having, like, traumatic memories in her brain and that's why she's so quiet. No, but, but yeah, you said that truth without compassion is cruelty or can be cruelty. And I realized then that there's nothing, you know, that if you're living an advanced, sophisticated, enlightened life, there's no such thing as one value that's going to be governing your behavior. A lot of people really value truth, but the truth is that truth is only one of many values.

John Dehlin [00:21:19] And compassion should be a value, and kindness should be a value, and empathy should also be a value. And so as. As you're kind of thinking about your intentions, you should probably start by getting centered on your own values, because your values should govern everything you do. And as we talked about acceptance and commitment therapy last time we had this episode, value, I'm going to return to ACT or acceptance commitment therapy again and again and again. Values should literally govern every, every aspect of your life. Just because you're no longer religious in a orthodox Mormon way does not mean that you don't have values. And so again, as you're thinking about coming out and as you're starting to think about the whys, I think one of the most important things you could do is literally write down your values, and I'm going to recommend a few values to you.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] Kindness, compassion, empathy, Are there any other values, Margi, that you would add that might help govern and shape your disclosure or non disclosure or those, the big ones. And honesty. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:34] Sometimes it's an authenticity value.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] Authenticity, that's huge. Authenticity. That's, that's amazing.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:40] And I will just point out because you, you brought up values and I feel like we could actually do an episode on values and how to, how to come up with those and then how to make those lived values. Because it's one thing just to kind of identify eight values and say, okay, those are my values. It's another thing to come up with values and develop how those values show up in your daily life, how they show up now and then, how you would like to have them show up. And oftentimes you find people who are feeling, I don't know, like a disconnect in their life.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:15] What they'll find is they actually hold a value, but that value actually is not being actively lived in their day to day experience. So that kind of would be, that might be a fun thing to do. But my point was to bring up, you know, these situations that we bring up come, you know, when we decide to tell our loved ones or to kind of share our change of faith with people close to us. Sometimes it brings up a conflict of values. And that's where you find a lot of people hitting, you know, where they stagnate and feel stuck. They have authenticity, they're wanting to tell, they're wanting to have this sense of being true to themselves.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:55] But they also value relationships and they can feel like, right, it's going to disrupt their relationships or it may be safety, it disrupts their sense of safety or their parents sense of safety. And that's where values can get a little bit complicated.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] Yeah, yeah. And I'll just say it one more time. If there's anything I've seen in the Mormon faith crisis world, it's that Mormons who lose their faith and we come by honestly, but Mormons who lose their faith value honesty and authenticity over kindness and compassion and empathy. And so what they do is they beat people over the head with their truth billy club and they do damage, they damage the other people, they damage themselves and they damage their relationships and nobody wins. So you have to temper, hear me now or believe me later, you have to temper your values of truth and authenticity with the values of kindness and compassion and empathy and, and just love.

Reasons You Might Choose Not to Disclose

John Dehlin [00:25:00] So having said all that, once you have gotten grounded on your values, then you should start thinking about your why, your motives for disclosing And I think we should now list. I don't know, we're going to list maybe up to 10 reasons for not disclosing. Now this is John de Lynn, probably the world's number one. Sort of like disclosure, especially in Mormonism and post Mormonism. Why are you laughing, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:25:34] Some truths are funny.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] Yeah. I'm like telling you that you don't have to disclose. It is absolutely a valid decision to not disclose your faith crisis with loved loved ones and family. And now we're going to give you 10 reasons why. Are you ready? Okay, here goes. Margi, do you want to start and just not list them? But do you want to start with number one?

Margi Dehlin [00:25:59] I love that one.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Okay, what's number one? What's the first reason to not disclose? Potentially.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:06] Yeah. And this, this may seem a bit strange from how we were raised culturally within a rel that is really high demand, but it's because it's private, because you don't have to, because it can be just yours alone and that has value. Or it can be just, you know, a very narrow set of people. You choose to tell that that's fine, you don't owe anyone anything in disclosing. Right. And I think that's, that's something, that's it with our families and with our. I think that we've been kind of taught this by being asked all sorts of questions and being modeled, that we owe it to people to tell all sorts of things about ourselves and that, that's on one hand.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:57] I think we've also been taught to hide those things that aren't, you know, don't fall in line as well. But it can feel a little bit difficult or strange to kind of hold this sense that what's yours is yours and you, you don't owe your truth or these inner parts of you or your vulnerable parts to you don't. You don't have to show them to people who haven't earned the right to hold them.

John Dehlin [00:27:23] Yeah, I love that. And one of the best illustrations of this is kind of like every other major world religion. Like if you look at Baptists or Catholics or Lutherans or Presbyterian, every, every one of them will tell you religion's a private thing. Like in, in non Mormon realms, you know, absence kind of high demand religions or cults. Basically people just tell you, you don't talk about religion in polite company. You just don't. If you're in a family gathering, you don't talk about religion. You talk about sports, you talk about the weather, you talk about the Children, you talk, you gossip about other people, but you just don't talk politics, religion or sex in, in, in mixed company or in, in friendly company.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] And so if, you know, and if a Lutheran or a Baptist or Presbyterian decides to stop attending a certain congregation, I just promise you their family members are probably not going to care very much. Maybe not a Baptist, but definitely an Episcopalian or a Unitarian or a Methodist or a Lutheran. And so the rest of the world models, the rest of kind of the Protestant and even Catholic world kind of models this pretty well. I'm sure Buddhism and, and Hinduism can be similar. Maybe, but.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] Yeah, so, so it's private. You owe them nothing. And you know, that's, that's a really good reason to not disclose. Okay. The second reason to not disclose is compassion. Margi, do you want to, do you want to hit that one? You want me to go, you want me to take that one? Okay, so the, the extreme example I always Give is the 90 year old grandmother dying of cancer. Do you really need to sit grandma down who's, you know, on hospice and tell her about peep stones and polyandry and kinderhook plates and tell her that her entire life has been a fraud months before she passes from this earth.

John Dehlin [00:29:20] Now that's an extreme example, but I'm sure you can think of a lot of examples of people that it just wouldn't, wouldn't be served by you disclosing and, and maybe that's somebody who's not mentally well. Maybe they're, maybe they're depressed. Maybe they, maybe they were addicted to substances and Mormonism was the way that they got clean and left their addictions. Maybe their going through a particularly traumatic experience in their lives and the church is what keeps them healthy, insane. Maybe they're in a marriage where if they lost their faith, it could jeopardize their entire marriage.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] You know, maybe it's a missionary on a mission. Maybe the elders knock on your door and they're in the middle of a mission and it just wouldn't be good for the elder or the sister to have you shoving Jeremy Reynolds in their face. There's lots of reasons, compassionate reasons why you just don't disclose. And I am just going to say that non disclosure is for, for reasons of compassion is an absolutely valid thing.

Carah Burrell [00:30:32] Can I ask a question? Are we going to be getting into like the ego of this? Like, about how. When you're asking the why, I always stop and try to think of like, what is the little id? What is the ego in my, the Back of my mind actually trying to say in these, obviously I do this for a living, but in my interpersonal relationships I have no interest in like shoving anything down anyone that I know's throats for those reasons because it's like what, what is actually going to be gained out of this? Because I know that person and I know that they know what's better for them than I know what's better from them.

Carah Burrell [00:31:02] And there's a planet of 8 billion people who, there's a billion Catholics, a billion Muslims, a billion Hindus. What is the good of telling one person what I know to be true now versus there's still billions of other people who believe things that I think are wrong. Like that, that you know what I mean? Like, it's like it just feels like there's an ego that a lot of people in this new truth telling motive, they're not taking into consideration that like one person isn't going to make that big of a difference if you have to shove something down your throat if it comes at the cost of like you're saying like being just not compassionate to what they feel like is right for them in their life.

Carah Burrell [00:31:41] So I think people should just kind of take that like the bigger picture, a thousand foot view. Is it really that? Is it really necessary to do that?

John Dehlin [00:31:48] So I love it.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:49] I love that comment. One thing I really like about that too is I think unless we process and do the work, you know, then we end up on a level just reproducing the structure we were in on the other way. Like the other way. So we are missionary just in reverse, just in the other way. And so we end up kind of duplicating still a very problematic paradigm from the other way, you know, and I've heard that be a criticism of kind of the post Mormon community a bit is just how didactic it can feel on the other side where if you want to talk about what like real, if we want to talk about a more enlightened view or what it would involve like this up to opposite of growing up in a very cult like or let's just say highly controlled container.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:41] It would be choice, it would be actually that you feel free to navigate your life in a post Mormon existence, you know, feeling completely free of paradigms of, you know, feeling like you're again in another formula or in another. Yeah, conformity model.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] Yeah, I think Carah, what? That's. That's right, Margi. And I think Carol, one way to kind of say what you're saying is it can be very Selfish and ego driven.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:09] For you to be jamming your issues on everybody else. Like, really, What? Like, how about just like get a therapist, get a coach, find a close friend. But why do you have to shove your mess on everybody else? I mean, now, obviously, when it's your spouse who you need to talk to

Margi Dehlin [00:33:26] or which will get there, other people

John Dehlin [00:33:28] you love, that's a different thing. And we're going to get to that. But, yeah, consider whether you're just being selfish. Is that kind of what you're saying, Carah? Yeah. Okay, that's great. So, yeah, I think selfishness is the opposite of compassion, kindness. That's a great point, Carah. Thank you for bringing that out. You too, Margi. Okay. The third reason to not disclose is that most people do not want to know and they don't want to talk about it.

John Dehlin [00:33:57] You know, do you want to, you want to, you want to do this one? Okay, so, you know, the. One of the biggest cliches in a faith crisis is the letter. Writing the letter. You know, we know about Jeremy Reynolds writing the CES letter. How many of you have written the letter? And it's kind of like this 70 page. Every issue you've ever, you know, learned about, every historical issue that you ever confronted, every social justice issue that the church, you know, has ever violated with 10,000 footnotes. How many of you have written that email or that letter that you thought was so important and you just had to share, you know, do.

John Dehlin [00:34:39] Do weeks and months and years of research and then you had to share that with everyone you knew. And so you write that letter or you write that email and you send it to everybody. And Markie, can you tell us what the most common responses to that letter and. Or email usually are?

Margi Dehlin [00:34:57] Oh, well, it's usually silence. You say crickets.

John Dehlin [00:35:02] Crickets. That's called the crickets effect. So that's part of it. And then in your experience, or

Margi Dehlin [00:35:11] there's usually there can be a new rhythm kind of introduced where they try to reconvert you. You'll notice just a lot of. That's, that's.

John Dehlin [00:35:21] But, but in the, in this, in the subsection of they don't want to know, in addition to the crickets effect, in your experience, what percentage of those emails or letters actually get read?

Margi Dehlin [00:35:33] Oh, yeah, Very few.

John Dehlin [00:35:35] Yeah, almost none. So I, I didn't mean to cut you off there. I was just trying to. I was like trying to have you read my mind. I apologize for that. But most of those emails and letters, number one, never even get read.

John Dehlin [00:35:49] And number Two, they, they don't get responded to. So you're kind of like shaking your fist to the wind. And then there's always, you know, we'll talk about the backfire effect. And, and like you said, Margi, kind of the, the bad side, that also happens. Totally. And we're going to talk about that next.

John Dehlin [00:36:06] But, but the point I'm making is they don't want to know. Most people don't want to know. And so why are you going to be. This goes along with the idea of compassion, but why are you going to be shoving stuff down people's throats that they don't want to hear? And you know, and it's hard all the time. Just yesterday when we did, you know, we'll do a six hour interview with a couple. We did this with the, with Thomas and Cece Stokes. And you know, a question they asked me, Margi, are any of our family even going to watch this? Right. Carah, I'm curious, what percentage of your family members actually watched your Mormon Stories podcast interview and like, gave you feedback about it?

Carah Burrell [00:36:48] Oh, none for sure. Like, are you kidding me?

John Dehlin [00:36:52] Margi, how many of your fam. When you did your beautiful interview with me or your TED Talk, you know, thrive talks or whatever, what percentage of your family members came to you and said, oh, man, I loved your, your podcast interview and I loved, I loved it or even gave you feedback about it, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:37:10] Yeah, very few.

John Dehlin [00:37:11] Yeah, they don't, they don't want to know. And it's not that they hate you. You know, some people need therapy because there's no response. Like this cricket thing. I'm not trying to trivialize it. It causes. People sometimes need therapy. It's really disturbing when you think about the fact that these are your parents, these are your best, your siblings, maybe your best friends, these are members of your ward that you were maybe Relief society bishop over or served with or served over as bishop or elders Quorum president. Like, if anybody you. These were people you loved, your best friends. These people should care.

John Dehlin [00:37:46] And they don't. And they don't. Because, you know, who wants to go through a faith crisis? It's traumatic and hard. We wouldn't have 100 plus, we wouldn't have 1500 hours of Mormon stories podcast episodes if a faith crisis wasn't hard and traumatic. And so of course they don't want to go through that. So they don't want to know. So have I beaten a, Have I beaten a dead horse? Margi, do you want to add anything to that?

Margi Dehlin [00:38:12] Just that I think. I mean, we live in a time that's hard, and I think there are reasons for people grasping onto structures really tightly. And so you. That goes back to that compassion of understanding that for some people, it's a mental health. Like, they're just holding on. And so, you know, they can't handle this at this time. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of compassion to be had and understanding that life is stressful and. Yeah, people may have. They may be protecting out of a sense of really, this is the way they can be alive right now is to hold on to this structure.

Carah Burrell [00:39:00] Did you say everything that you wanted to say about that before we move on to the next point?

Margi Dehlin [00:39:03] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:39:04] So the next problem would be maybe they try to reconvert you if you disclose to them what your problems are with the church.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:13] Yeah. So true. I think oftentimes they. What ends up happening is you become now a focus in the family, particularly, too, if you. A lot of your family members are still active and you are differentiating. So, Yeah. I think inadvertently it can create a new rhythm where you're experiencing an increase in Ensign articles in your inbox or your mom drops by and wants to tell you about the lessons she taught on Sunday, or. And. And so as you're trying to transition and you need space, you're actually being brought even more, and it becomes just a highly stimulating, highly triggering kind of event for you where it increases. You're getting an increase to the things that you're actually feeling.

Carah Burrell [00:40:04] Really. Really.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:07] You know, triggered by.

Carah Burrell [00:40:09] Yeah. And I think that goes back to John's point a couple seconds ago about how, like, your parent, like, it's. It's crazy making behavior when you go through something and your family doesn't understand. This is the hardest thing I've ever gone through. The crickets are there. And then to add insult to injury, they don't even understand. And now they're just, like, throwing enzyme articles at you. Yeah. Not even understanding. Like, this is the last thing that I want to see right now.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:32] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:40:32] Is you doubling down with me instead of just listening.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:35] That's right.

Carah Burrell [00:40:35] I don't know. It feels like. It feels like that. The most painful thing to me in Mormonism, honestly. Sorry. To anyone who's watching right now. John's trying to fix my. Fix my camera. So. Camera's on Margi, but it's my face.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:48] But your voice.

Carah Burrell [00:40:49] Yeah. Like. Yeah. One of those most painful things is, like, you are trying so desperately to feel heard and feel seen, but your family members are Taking the side of the thing that's kind of hurting you. And they were choosing that over you, and it just. It feels like a dagger in the heart every time.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:06] That's right. And it adds. Quite frankly, it adds a layer of stress to you. You're already going through something hard and. And now you've got an added layer with relationships. Yeah. Really true.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Yeah. So. Okay. Yeah. So I just have to tell people that I apologize that Carah's camera just went out. We. We've got some. Just some technical glitches. So you're gonna have to just listen to Carah and see me and Margi. So our. Our condolences. Care. I'm sorry about that. If we. If I can fix it while Margi and you were talking.

Carah Burrell [00:41:38] Sincerest condolences.

John Dehlin [00:41:40] But. But I'll just. I know it's. It's a tragedy, actually, but. But I. I'll just add, yeah, they're going to try and reconvert you, and you need to just know that ahead of time because why wouldn't they? If. If they really believe it's God's one true church, if they really believe you're ruining. You're making heaven sad for them. If you're breaking the eternal family and creating empty chairs, why wouldn't they try and reconvert you? And. And so, you know, that's another reason to not even talk to them about it. In addition to the fact that it's private and it might not be compassionate and they just simply don't want to know.

Safety, Emotional Readiness, and the Backfire Effect

John Dehlin [00:42:17] Okay, the next reason that we have is safety. In other words, sometimes it may not be safe to disclose for you and Margi. I'm wondering if you've got thoughts on that first, and then I can add or you start. Okay, I'll.

John Dehlin [00:42:36] All right, so let's just say you're a BYU student and you're under the honor code and you have a faith crisis. Guess what? It's probably not safe for you to come out because you could get kicked out of byu and that's. You know that I almost want to yell the word cult when. When I say that. But that's a fact. You will get kicked out of BYU and probably add one to two years to your education, not to mention all the time and money you lose.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] You know, disclosing. So it's not safe. You may live in a home with abusive parents and you may not be of age yet to move out. May not be safe. You may be on a mission and it may be too disruptive. You may be with A spouse who wouldn't support you. You may be relying on someone financially right now to take care of you or to give you housing or shelter. You may be in a marriage that wouldn't withstand it, or you may just be in a particular stage in your marriage or life where it would just be too much, adding too much to your mental health or well being, maybe to the person you might disclose to, to the family system, you know.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] So for all sorts of reasons considering safety, like don't fall on your sword is what I like to say, don't disclose at your own peril. This should be common sense. If it's going to hurt you, if it's going to meaningfully hurt you, damage you, I'll say that if it's going to damage you to disclose, don't disclose. Now, there's a difference between pain and damage. It will be painful to disclose. So I'm not saying don't disclose if you don't want to experience pain. Pain is inextricably linked with usually disclosing. And you cannot grow without pain. It's like lifting weights makes your muscles hurt.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] Disclosing is going to be painful, but that pain often will lead to incredible growth. But having said all that, if it's going to damage you, why would you ever disclose? Don't do it. Just keep it to yourself, get to a safer place or wait till your system or your family is in a safer place and then disclose.

Carah Burrell [00:45:03] Carah, I just wanted to quickly add that we have a 50 super chat from Jason Ream. So thank you for that. And second, I just want to say we love Jason. Yeah, we do love Jason. And second, I wanted to say that it is ironic that I have no voice today and my video is out. So you win this one patriarchy. I. I feel your wrath. All right, sorry. Continue.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:25] Not. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] I love it. I love it. Thanks, Carah. And if I can get your thing working, I will. Margi, is there anything you want to add to the safety conversation?

Margi Dehlin [00:45:34] Yeah, I think so. I'm going to add that, you know, your emotional state and psychological state is part of that safety, that matters too. So this is a big deal. It's an incredibly. I think it can be a really unsettling journey. It can be a really uncertain journey. And so also, if you're having a hard enough time dealing with your own mind, quite frankly, and working through, you know, your sense of identity or, you know, what you want from life, and that's enough, quite like really that's enough to hold that. That's another reason not to disclose. You matter. Your experience matters. And taking care of yourself, your, again, your emotional wellness, your sense of psychological health is. It should be something that you consider as well.

John Dehlin [00:46:31] Yeah, I agree. That's probably the number one consideration. If you. A faith crisis is difficult enough just to deal with all the holes that develop. The spiritual holes, the community holes, the family holes, the marital holes, the sense of meaning and purpose. It's traumatic. It's. It's often.

John Dehlin [00:46:51] It's often. It's often as bad or worse than losing a loved one who passes away. It's bad. Again, LGBT people often tell me it was harder to come out as losing my faith than coming out as gay. And we know that coming out as gay sometimes can be super traumatic. And so for all those reasons, just take care of you first. Your safety. I love that. Margi, thank you for re emphasizing your own personal well being. If it's not healthy for you to disclose, don't disclose. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] Okay. The next reason to not disclose is the backfire effect. Again, this goes along with the people don't want to know sort of thing. But you also, and I've said this a million times, but if this is the first time you've tuned into Mormon stories, you. I'll just say it really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] If you go to the you're not so smart podcast, there's. We'll put this in the show notes. There's an episode called the backfire Effect, and in that episode, it tells you something that's kind of disturbing. Think abortion. Think, you know, global warming. Think gun control. Any issue that's polarizing the vaccine.

John Dehlin [00:48:05] When someone is presented with evidence that contradicts their worldview that is tightly interwoven to their identity, right? Political identity, religious identity, any type of their identity. When you present them with evidence that is actually true and factual, but that goes against their closely held beliefs, they actually cling tighter to their beliefs than before. So you actually strengthen their beliefs by challenging them with evidence. You strengthen their beliefs. That's the last thing you want to do, probably, if you've gone through a faith crisis, is make your loved ones believe even stronger in the thing that you've lost faith in. And so you just have to realize that it's not your job.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] And so not only is it not your job, but you can make it worse when you disclose, because they'll get defensive and then they'll want to. They'll feel unsettled, they'll feel that cognitive dissonance. Oh, my gosh, Carah's lost her faith. Oh, that's terrible. She was so strong. Margi. Margi lost her faith. Oh, I can't deal with the cognitive dissonance. Let me double down by reading Fair Mormon. Reading Fair Mormon. Reading Fair Mormon. And now I'm going to shoot you with the ammo of fair Mormon as a response to the distress I feel knowing that you lost your faith. So backfire effect is a real reason why. Carrie, did you want to say something about that?

Carah Burrell [00:49:36] Yeah. My camera doesn't work though, right?

John Dehlin [00:49:38] Not yet.

Carah Burrell [00:49:39] Okay. You guys should see how hard work John like Margi will be talking and John's jumping up trying to work on my camera. Don't worry about it, John. And he's running back when she's finishing up what she's going to say. No Fair Mormon is like that's actually too progressive for my parents. They send me Book of Mormon evidence conference stuff as you guys might already know, if you follow me. So I just wanted to add the Scott's comment. If Margi, if you have want to speak to this, if you have any idea, he writes, why is it that people don't want to know? Is, is it what is the reason people feel that way? Is it ego, survival? What's your opinion on why people like to double down and you know, forcefully inject the backfire effect when they're preventing presented with, you know, facts.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:25] Yeah, well I'll offer some things and then if you have ideas or, or then John too. I mean sometimes I feel like it's. It's this idea of protecting, protecting your world, protecting what you've sacrificed so much for. And so I think there's that a real level especially I see that more and more now. I think it can be a very. When you've invested so much, given so much money, given so much time. I think there's actually. Isn't there a psychological principle around that sunk cost fallacy. Right. So that's something that I see. What are some ideas you have?

Carah Burrell [00:51:10] Yeah, I think sunken costs as well. That people's entire mental health I guess is dependent on this organization to keep them afloat through a very difficult life. And any information that counters that their brain is only going to look for reasons that it's more true instead of less because they're feeling like, like alarm bells, alarm bell, something's going off. If you lose this, we're gonna die, we're gonna sink, we're gonna drown.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:35] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:51:36] So they are more invested in looking for reasons. It's true. Instead of ever being open minded to the possibility that they're wrong. That's kind of how I would frame it.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:45] And then I'll add a third thing. There's a really good episode I did with a friend named Dr. David Christian once who talked about utility Mormons and validity Mormons. Because you think that, that people's big decisions in life are just related to facts and evidence.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] And if, you know, you just give people the evidence and the facts, they'll make the right decisions. But if you've been paying attention at all in 2021, you'll know that facts and evidence do not necessarily lead to a consensus because of confirmation bias and these sorts of other dynamics. And one of the things David Christian taught us is that some people aren't Mormon because it's true. They'll say they're Mormon because it's true. They'll say it's because of the, you know, the, the history and the, the Book of Mormon and the feelings I got from the Book of Mormon. Well, that proves it's true. Well, we all know that none of that feelings don't prove anything's true or we would need science.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] We would just trust our feelings. The truth is that some people are what are called utility Mormons. So there's validity Mormons, utility Mormons. A validity Mormon is Mormon because they think it's true. And if those people truly value evidence, then the evidence can lead them out of the church because they'll be like, whoa, I was Mormon based on the evidence I had. Oh, now there's new evidence. Oh, well, now I realize it's not true. It's time to get out of here. Because I found out it's false. That's what a validity Mormon might do.

John Dehlin [00:53:15] A utility Mormon is Mormon because it works for them. They're Mormon because it's a it. I'm worried my spouse might cheat on me. And it helps my spouse stay in the church. It helps keep our marriage strong or I don't know how else I'd raise my kids without the church. So it helps me raise my kids or I'm lonely. I'm this poor person who has no friends. When I go to church, people care about me and love me and they invite me to things. So the church works for me.

John Dehlin [00:53:47] So most Mormons are, are, are utility Mormons, not validity Mormons. And that's why they don't care. If they don't care about your 80 page CES letter, because they don't. They're not Mormon because of the evidence to begin with, there's that saying that we've Said often on Mormon stories, you can't deconvert someone with evidence from a position they arrived at through emotion. Does that make sense? You can't deconvert someone with evidence from a position they arrived at emotionally. That would be my answer to Scott. How's that?

Margi Dehlin [00:54:23] I'm gonna add one last thing. Sometimes that you see as sort of foundational, so. And it's an emotional foundation is just. There's a reason why I feel like religions kind of create a brokenness in human beings, natural man thought, where we need a savior to sa us. And I think oftentimes, psychologically, we absorb that message of needing someone to make us. To make our sins be okay or make our humanness be okay. And we take that in and believe it about ourselves. And so when we do, when we innately. And. And then they have all these models where we're never good enough. So then our existence, we live that time and time again.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:09] It's like we can't seem to do all the things they want us to do. We have pain and suffering, and then we're told it's because we're. But are we praying and doing all. And, you know, inevitably we're not. And I think that reinforces, over time, this sense of like, I can't do it on my own. I'm like, depraved. I'm like, you know, on my own, I've got nothing. And that's a message that I think religions can reinforce, and it allows for religions to thrive, quite frankly, because you grow up thinking, I think I need it. Without it, I'm nothing.

Carah Burrell [00:55:47] Right, Sorry. John's running over.

John Dehlin [00:55:50] Okay, so that's another reason is backfire, effects and. And, yeah, safety. So what do we go on to the next one? Okay, so the next one is the next reason not to disclose. And this may be all we get through today, that we're already an hour in and we're just on point one of rule, you know, lessons and rules for disclosing.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] The next reason not to disclose is gossip. Being made a project, being shunned and ostracizing. In other words, there are a lot of downsides to disclosing. Do you want me to talk about this? Okay, so you will be gossiped about in your ward or congregation. You will be gossiped about by your family members. They will all talk about you behind your back. You will be mentioned in a priesthood executive committee or whatever the bishop thing is these days, when the bishop gets the Relief Society president and all the major ward leaders together and they talk about the ward. They will bring you up in peculiar.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] It will get around in your ward. You will be made a project. All of a sudden, people will be bringing chocolate chip cookies to your door saying, we miss you. We heard. You know, you aren't doing so well. They'll be showing extra love to your children if you have children, trying to save them from their wicked parents that have lost their faith. And you'll be made a project.

John Dehlin [00:57:22] And. And it. Once they realize you're lost and there's no way of bringing you back, then they will ostracize, most likely ostracize and shun you and your spouse and your children potentially. Like, these are all real consequences for most Mormons when you disclose. And so unless you're willing to face that, and if you're not ready to face that, don't disclose. Am I being glib, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:57:54] A little. But I think. I mean, and this may be variable.

Carah Burrell [00:57:59] It.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:59] Living in Utah, certain areas in Utah, this may be something that is, you know, something weighty to consider as opposed to if you live in Ohio and there's more space between you, you know, ward buildings. And so that's something just to consider.

John Dehlin [00:58:21] All right. Yeah. Gossip and shunning and ostracization.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:24] We're wired to be external. Growing up Mormon, I think, so that's something that hurts us initially. Leaving is we. Oftentimes it's. It's not unusual to feel a sense of sensitivity that we're wrong, things are being said about us, or people are judging us in ways that we think are incorrect. Were wired for that. We were in a conformity religion where, you know, it was. We were wired around everyone looking the same, thinking the same, and kind of. So it is understandable that it comes up and that it's difficult to manage.

John Dehlin [00:59:01] Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Another reason not to disclose is the risk of church discipline. The worst thing you can ever do is be perceived as a threat, potentially by your ward or stake president. And once you start telling neighbors, family, friends, ward members about your loss of faith, there's a very real chance your bishop or stake president will think you'll interpret. You know, I'll. I'll tell this story really quickly. I have a. I have my dear friend who has a friend who all they did was they stopped going to church in their Utah ward. And then people started saying, hey, you know, why. Why'd you leave?

John Dehlin [00:59:45] Why'd you stop coming? And they're like, oh, we don't want to tell you. And they're like, no, really, we want to know. And then he's like, no, I don't want to tell you. I don't want to mess your faith. And they're like, no, no, no, really, we really want to know. Will you please tell us? They're like, okay, well, you know, we read the CES letter, we read the gospel topics essays, and so we lost our faith.

John Dehlin [01:00:05] Then those members turned around and went and told the bishop that. That this person was trying to convince them to leave the church. Swear to secular heavenly Father. That happens, you are at risk. Even if you are disclosing to someone, you feel safe that it can. And even if all they do is, like, go back and tell their wife or their spouse about the conversation they had with you, that spouse might go tell the bishop, which is actually what happened also in this case. And so, for all those reasons, unless you're open to potentially being on the other end of excommunication or disfellowship, you need to really think.

John Dehlin [01:00:46] Think deeply about whether or not you want to disclose. Margi, I know you observed a disciplinary counselor, too. Anything you want to add to that one?

Margi Dehlin [01:00:54] No, I think that's great.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] Okay. Is it fair to say disciplinary councils aren't fun to be a part of?

Margi Dehlin [01:01:00] They're not fun, no.

John Dehlin [01:01:01] What was your. What. What was your action the day after my disciplinary council?

Margi Dehlin [01:01:08] I resigned.

John Dehlin [01:01:09] Yeah. You resigned from the church.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:10] Yeah. Yeah, because for a lot of reasons. We can do an interview about it if you want.

Carah Burrell [01:01:16] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:01:17] I'm putting Margi on the spot. All right. I just made my wife officially uncomfortable. Um. All right. A last thing to consider about, a last reason to not disclose is that there's another pathway which is just keeping things ambiguous. So lots of people, I would say half. Half of the active Mormons in the United States in 2021 don't believe the church is true or don't believe on some fundamental level in major parts of the gospel. But for all the reasons we just mentioned, they just keep it ambiguous. They attend when they have to, they stay out the foyer, they skip meetings, they show up once a month.

John Dehlin [01:02:02] Whatever they have to do to keep it ambiguous, that's. That's what they do. And that's a real. There's a valid. You know, I talked to somebody yesterday if I wanted to become a Canadian citizen, but I. But I, you know, valued being an American citizen. For whatever reason, I'd rather have two passports than one.

John Dehlin [01:02:20] So, you know, if you want to just keep your membership because there might be benefits, why. Why disclose and make a big deal about It. Why not just, you know, some would argue, have your cake and eat it too, and just keep your membership. Be super ambiguous, keep things private. And, you know, that's one way. And we're actually going to practice or role play how to keep things private in. And ambiguous in just a second. But those are all the reasons not to disclose.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:54] And I'm. I'm gonna just say, personally, I think if you're in a place where you can kind of do ambiguity, I just. You're probably in a privileged place. You know, that's just something that I want to kind of put out there, meaning that you. You probably fall in a box of kind of where you have a certain level like that an LGBTQIA person may not have that same choice or opportunity to. To remain kind of ambiguous. There are mental health reasons that ambiguity may not be a healthy choice.

John Dehlin [01:03:33] Yeah. Oh, abs. Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:36] Yeah. Okay. So we have now. We have now discovered all the reasons not to disclose it. It turns out there are. And I know these. These sort of answers are going to make some people angry, especially if you're kind of on your kick of, like, authenticity or truth or like the harm the church causes.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:58] Well, we respect that.

John Dehlin [01:04:00] We do.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:00] And support that as well.

John Dehlin [01:04:03] Yeah, we do. Right?

Margi Dehlin [01:04:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:06] Yeah. But. But having said everything that we just spent an hour saying, there are really good reasons to disclose. And so now we're going to do the reasons to disclose. So, Margi, you came up with this one. One really important reason to disclose is boundaries. Maintaining healthy boundaries that are being violated. Would you like to describe the situation?

Margi Dehlin [01:04:30] Yeah, I mean, some situations that come to mind would be like a parent that repeatedly wants to have conversations about you not attending church. Or have you thought about your children and not being temple, you know, temple, married or. So you find that you're having these.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:50] Well, you're having a paradigm show up in relationship where you're getting a ton of Ensign articles, and it's really adding stress to your life on a regular basis. You might want to kind of disclose then in a way to kind of boundary.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:10] So an example of that would be to just kind of clear up, well, why weren't you at church? You know, we noticed, you know, that the children have been saying that you're not going to church. I talked to Maddie, and Maddie was saying that you guys haven't been going recently. And so can you tell me about that? Can you tell me what's going on? Or at a dinner conversation, people pick up, and then all of a sudden you're the focus of a dinner conversation, or there are always church conversations on Sunday dinner with extended family, and you're feeling completely triggered, and then you start not wanting to go, or these are all areas where it's starting to affect you in a way that probably is daily.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:52] And then you may want to disclose and just say, hey, you know, we have some things going on, and for us right now, those conversations aren't feeling really good. So we'd like to not. We'd like to have some space around that for the next little while. I'd like to say no to extra Ensign articles now. For now, I'd like to just not have this be a topic of conversation, but I'd love to talk to you about all these other things.

John Dehlin [01:06:18] I love it. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. So. And it's not just, you know, sometimes it's well intended grandparents, sometimes it's well intended siblings, sometimes it's ward members, church leaders. There are all sorts of people that are. Are potentially going to want to violate your boundaries. And one really clear, clean way to. To get them off your back, either for you or potentially for your children, if you have children in the home, is just to disclose so that they'll leave you or your kids the f alone.

John Dehlin [01:06:54] And they mean well. They're actually trying to save your souls. They love you, but sometimes you just need to put up a healthy boundary. And again, if you're in a place to do so, boundaries is a really good reason to disclose. Right? Okay.

John Dehlin [01:07:11] The next time or reason to potentially disclose is when your value for authenticity sort of outweighs any of the risks or concerns that you may have any of the potential negative consequences of disclosing and also. And including kind of, you know, any concerns you have for your own safety. So if. If at some point you just feel like, I mean, this is the most common scenario where people have to disclose. It's when they can't not disclose. It's when they feel like they're about to explode. Like it's a matter of integrity. And they're starting to get sick themselves, starting to develop chronic illness, depression, anxiety, just living inauthentically. And that's honestly one of the main. You're nodding, Mar. You. Why are you nodding?

Margi Dehlin [01:08:13] Yeah, I'm just thinking of, like, the cost of filtering. There are so many people that are filtering what they say when they're around certain members of their family, and it's just. It's so exhausting. And people just start to shrink and they feel like they're getting, like, smaller and smaller and Smaller to live in the same state space of their life, you know?

John Dehlin [01:08:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I'm kind of going to say the opposite of what I said before. Before I said, if it's unhealthy or unsafe for you to disclose, do not disclose. I will also say if it's unhealthy for you to stay closeted, to stay hidden. If it's unhealthy for you not to disclose. That's a double negative, then disclose.

John Dehlin [01:09:00] Let me, let me eliminate the double negative. If it is going to be healthier for you to disclose, then you should disclose. You should not sacrifice your own health and well being for someone else. Even for your mom and Margi. I want and care. I want to know if either of you guys disagree with me on this, if it's going to upset one of your parents to have you disclose or if it's going to upset your spouse or upset your kids, but your own health and mental health and well being will be sacrificed at the altar of your nondisclosure.

John Dehlin [01:09:40] You know, it's up to you. It's your personal choice. My opinion is that you should seriously consider disclosing versus, versus suffer and suffer with the anxiety and the depression and the eventual chronic illness and eventually thoughts of death by suicide that is definitely a, a frequent consequence of continued non, non disclosure of staying in the closet. LGBTQ people will tell you that. And people in a faith crisis will also tell you that it can be hazardous to your health and. Or deadly to go an extended period of time never disclosing. Carah, I know you're kind of at the edge of your seat. What would you like to add?

Carah Burrell [01:10:28] Yeah, it's a good indication. When I take. You can tell I'm taking the mute off. It's like, very obvious now, huh? All I wanted to say to that is we're talking about so many issues all coming into one. From what we talked about last time about how to talk, how to say it, how not to say it, how to not word vomit out everything that's on your mind, all of these things into one. It's just making me think about the thing that I wish I wouldn't have done when I told my mom is I. I didn't give her any indication that I was having a faith crisis until I told her, I am done, I am leaving, I'm never going back.

Navigating Repeated Pressure and Setting Limits

Carah Burrell [01:10:58] You know, she had no indication. And so I think the compassionate thing to do would be, yes, for her to know, to put up a boundary that everything's. We're on an understanding now. But the whiplash that I think I put my family through now, as I look back, feels kind of cruel because it came out of nowhere. They had no idea that I was having any problems. Does that make sense? So I'm just trying to like combine all of these ideas into one about probably would have been. Would have been smarter. So.

John Dehlin [01:11:24] Yeah, I love it.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:27] If you want to add Margi, just

Margi Dehlin [01:11:29] that I notice that for women in particular, this is a tough one when.

John Dehlin [01:11:34] Yeah. Why is that?

Margi Dehlin [01:11:37] I just think we have lots of. There are lots of reasons. I think within culture there's still a lot of self sacrifice involved where women are held up the more they sacrifice themselves and caring for others. So there's, you know, at best, sort of a mixed message culturally about that. It's like have a job, be a professional, but also don't drop the ball on these things that are at home either. And so. But then if you add kind of the Mormon layer, I just feel like from the beginning, the of our like being born in the real. I just think we're so relationship identified. You know, I think we're someone's daughter and then we're someone's wife and then we're someone's mother and it's always other.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:22] We're always looking after people. We're always kind of feeling responsible and taken care of. And this can be a tough one. And I think I view it as like one of the most important shifts for women transitioning out is this sense of where am I and where do I fit in and who's taking care of me and coming back to yourself. Which is why I gave the thrive talk coming home.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:51] It's this idea of we should actually be starting there. And when we start there from a place of taking care of ourselves, everything else is, is. Is made better in a healthier way. It may not be more comfortable or as comfortable to all those involved, but it's like healthier because you are actually coming from and being able to. To give that which you have given to yourself. We can only give what we are able to give to ourselves first. So that's a tough one. I'm just sitting here feeling how difficult and challenging that can be for particularly women coming out of a conservative religion, coming out of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:13:35] I know that there are going to be many women that are just vibing with you right now and that's so it's one of the reasons you have wisdom for everyone. But I just know so many people are grateful for that comment.

John Dehlin [01:13:46] You Just made. So thank you. Thanks Margi. And yeah. Is it, is it possible that in Mormonism there's just this extra burden on women to always be the pleasers, to always be making everybody happy and to self sacrifice and, and I just love that idea that, you know, I just want to reiterate it. Don't sacrifice yourself. You know, the Giving Tree. The, the Giving Tree is the most heinous story in the history of literature because the, the Giving Tree ends up a stump and don't end up a stump. You know, take care of your own mental health and well being and if you need to disappoint people and hurt people for your own health and well being, especially if you're a woman, do it, do it for your own health and well being.

John Dehlin [01:14:37] You deserve it. You matter. Your health and well being matters. And at the end of the day, especially for adults, if it's your parents, if it's your grandparents, they are adults. And at the end of the day it's not your job to take care of your parents or your grandparents feelings. It's nice if you can be kind, but at the end of the day, don't save your mom or dad or grandparents at the cost of your own health and well being. Not just for your spouse or your children that may depend on you, but for you because you matter and you deserve good things.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:13] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:15:13] Is my camera working? Oh, damn. Look at that, you guys. John just set up his camera. He set up his, his iPhone.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:19] Never give up. Never give up.

Carah Burrell [01:15:22] This is like a totally different lighting situation. Good job of John.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] I know we do our best. It's better than nothing.

Carah Burrell [01:15:29] I mean if the roles were reversed and your camera went out, I don't know if I would try that hard. Gosh, you're so nice. Thanks, John. You guys can see my tea maker in the backyard. You know that I'm backyard. I said backyard behind me. It is kind of a backyard of stuff. Yeah, my backyard back there. Um, the only thing I wanted to say is like I really hope that people listen and implement a lot of these things because we're talking about really hard things to do. And I guarantee like the, the, the weight and the pain of losing your faith and losing these things, it can be replaced by this outrageous, amazing new high, this new belief in yourself and in your own abilities to put up boundaries.

Carah Burrell [01:16:10] And I can say that while my faith crisis and losing my faith and telling my family and all that turmoil was like one of the hardest things I've ever done on the other side and Putting up boundaries and applying, like my brain for the first time, it feels like in my life in a way that was butting heads with my parents and from my tribe and where I came from. While it was hard, it was one of the most invigorating things I've ever done. And so you get a boost of confidence and you realize your own strength and you move into your own self and it's really, really, really cool.

Carah Burrell [01:16:43] So all I want to just say to this is, like, if somebody's in this really dark space to just lend some encouragement that even though it can be a really dark, sunken place, like if you can apply some of these cool things, like, you can come out on the other side knowing yourself and your strength so much more than you did back there.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:00] So I'm so glad you mentioned that because I do feel like this has been a little bit heavy today, bringing out, I think, a lot of the hard, and there is a lot of hard to it. But there's, there's a reason why we called the original kind of podcast the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis is because there are gifts in it. And I think we. There is a sense of becoming, through a transition away from faith, where you become who you are meant to be and you create that. You're the one creating that and you get to differentiate. And yes, you get to start practicing all these healthy things of laying down boundaries and advocating for yourself and deciding how you want to live your life. And there is also a great deal of excitement and empowerment in that process as well.

Carah Burrell [01:17:50] Right on. I was just going to say, I remember my son was born, see, June 2020.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:58] And.

Carah Burrell [01:17:58] And I left the church summer 2019. So one year later, my dad asked me, so are you gonna bless the baby at church? And I thought that was such a weird question. Cause I was like, they know I haven't left it. It's going back to boundaries. And just like you guys already know, my stance is clear, you know. So all I said to my dad was like, no, that is a ritual for babies in your church, in your religion. I'm not a member of that religion, so it wouldn't make sense for me to do that type of ceremony for my son. But. But we'll find something else meaningful to do. And my dad was like, kind of like taken aback that I was just like, bam. And no, right? And I was like, confidence. I was like, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Margi Dehlin [01:18:37] So true.

Carah Burrell [01:18:38] You're like, look at me.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:39] Be a grown ass dude.

Carah Burrell [01:18:40] Look at me go, yeah. And you just do that enough times. You're just. And then you start podcasting. And now look at my. No, like, you just do it enough times. You just like. Yeah. Which was really funny because now, for some weird reason, my parents are actually really proud of me. Me that, like, I. They're like, your hair. You're so retired. I wish this is not a podcast.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] And they're proud of you.

Carah Burrell [01:19:01] So weirdly proud of me. I know. I've been. I don't want to talk too much about the Book of Mormon Evidence Conference that I went to this past weekend, but my parents are weirdly proud of me and what I do for Mormon stories and working for John de Lynn. I don't know what makes sense in their brain, but they're like, carrie, you're so articulate, and we're bragging about you to all these people. And I was like, I don't think that you should be bragging. I don't know if these people, like, really do. You know how these people clash? Like, we're on kind of polar opposites here.

Carah Burrell [01:19:26] But, like, it's. It's kind of cool the more that I've stood up for myself and grown into my. My new voice since leaving the church. Like, they're weirdly proud of it, even though we have totally different beliefs. So that's, again, just, like, if that sound resonates with anyone, just give it a go. Just really try to, like, step into your new, authentic self, because it feels like miracles are happening. Yeah. Within my relationship with my parents, even though we have totally different beliefs, it's kind of crazy and cool.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:52] And that's a great thing to remember, too, is just this idea that you may be in a space right now that really what you're seeing is a lot of loss and you're experiencing a lot of, let's just say, deaths, these little deaths of life. And that's valid. You know, there are spaces and times where this transition process may be bringing you feeling of just, like, I'm having a lot of loss.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:18] What I've found is there's almost always a sense of partnering where something is being born. There are also births bit by bit, that you can see little things being planted, little things that didn't exist before. And sometimes it can be helpful to just be on the lookout for those things, because I think the losses are. Can be very evident. Right. You feel slammed by those. The births can be a little bit more nuanced, a little bit more subtle and harder to see, but they're there too.

John Dehlin [01:20:50] Love it. I love it. All right. This is so fun. All right, so now we're on to the fourth potential reason to disclose. And what I wrote there is the idea of altruism. Altruism, which is wanting to help other people.

John Dehlin [01:21:09] And this is a tricky one because it has to be balanced with compassion and safety. Other people's safety in yours and an ego. Ego. Yep. And all those things. And it is a legitimate, you know, I guess I'm. I guess I try and be. And maybe all three of us try and be living examples of this idea that there are.

John Dehlin [01:21:30] There are legitimate reasons to educate people about the. The truth about the Mormon Church and the harm about the Mormon Church. Because there are people who, if they knew the truth about the church, they might either engage it in different ways and, or they might leave it. They might pay less tithing, they might give less effort to it, they might protect their children in a different way from the church. There's all sorts of different ways that people might make different decisions if they either had the truth about the church or knew about the harm the church was causing LGBT people or women or youth or whatever.

John Dehlin [01:22:12] And so part of the mission of the Open Stories foundation is to help promote informed consent within Mormonism and to help discriminate minorities so to alleviate LGBTQ suffering, to. To prevent, you know, youth, young women, young men from being overly sexualized or, you know, taught toxic masculinity to. To prevent teachings of racism that are inherent in the Book of Mormon and the Book of Moses and in Mormonism to promote the status of women so that they're not second class citizens. You know, there are all sorts of ways the church harms people, not to mention pressuring people to give time and money under.

John Dehlin [01:22:57] Without the la. Without full informed consent. So if you decide one reason to disclose, and this is probably the most common reason people want to disclose, and that's why I'm hesitant to even mention it, because people can want this at the expense of compassion and other people's safety in their own. But altruism is one main reason people want to disclose, and it's a legitimate reason. Carah?

Carah Burrell [01:23:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] Oh, were you wanting to say something?

Carah Burrell [01:23:24] I guess. I mean, if I'm holding this in my hand, that means I'm off mute. But I mean, it's. Yeah, that's. I definitely think you said that very well, of needing to balance things. And I mean, I think everyone in their heads, we can have real life ramifications to the church's teachings where like one plus one is equaling Two where, like in, you know, a certain family, let's just call it mine. I don't know, maybe there's some trans individuals, let's say. And very directly, the church's teachings about families and gender identity is the very thing that is causing suicidality in a trans family member. And there is.

Carah Burrell [01:24:03] It's a clear as day, you know, connection. And if I can get the family member to be a little bit more nuanced in their beliefs and work around the edges, that's my altruistic thing, because I want my trans family member to stick around. You know, like, I'm not trying to take away someone's faith, but I'm trying to have people have a lot more compassion and nuanced belief on these areas. But if somebody's just gonna throw the CS letter at somebody's face, we, like, we were talking about the backfire effect. That's not the way to go about it. But it is this altruistic out of compassion for people who are being harmed by the people that I love.

Carah Burrell [01:24:35] You know, people I love that are in the church can still do harm to people that I love that are outside the church. So it's balancing how to go about this in the same smart way. That's what I have to say.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:44] That's right. Strategic way.

John Dehlin [01:24:46] That's great. Thanks, Carah. Yeah, I'll just add that for. For. If you had asked me, I stayed active in the church for 13 years after I lost my faith, and people are kind of blown away by that. If you had asked me during most of that time why I stay in the church, one of the main reasons, well, was to help people in it.

John Dehlin [01:25:08] And I felt like Mormon stories could be more successful if I was still a member of the church. But I also enjoyed it myself. But also I didn't know of a way to raise healthy, happy kids outside of Mormonism. And I was terrified that I would have no framework to help my kids be happy, healthy kids without the church. And, you know, that's how I felt at the time. Something that's been really profound for me are these recent Mormon Stories podcast episodes. I think Lauren was one. And I think yesterday with, with Thomas and CeCe, these, these younger people who are having babies, who, as soon as they hold that baby in their hands for the first time, they say, I can't raise this baby.

John Dehlin [01:25:49] I can't raise this beautiful, innocent child in this church anymore. Ethically, morally, I'm not going to do that to them. And I'd never thought about that before. And so you know, that's just another way of saying that. Oh, and I'll say, sorry, I'll say one more thing as well. You know, confirmation bias is true, and there's a lot of people that don't value evidence, that don't want to hear about your faith crisis and who won't read that letter if you write it. That's all true. And there are people, and maybe it's a minority, but there are people who do value evidence within Mormonism who do want to know, and they just simply don't have the information yet.

John Dehlin [01:26:30] And just yesterday in the podcast, we had several people write in that they didn't Learn about the CES letter until 2000 or 2001. Five or six years into the existence of the CES letter, the majority of Mormons have never heard of Mormon Stories podcast, and we're in our 16th year of production. The Mormon bubble is so strong that most Mormons have never heard of any of this stuff, let alone the gospel topics, essays, or any of the factual church history. So there are going to be people who want to know and would want to know, and they just need somebody to reach out and tell them.

John Dehlin [01:27:08] And for all the pain of coming out, you know, as. As disclosing as someone who's lost their faith, one of the hidden nuggets of joy, kind of like this is almost like a missionary phrase, like if, if there be only one, you know, precious shall be your place in heaven. If just you convert just but one person to the gospel, sometimes by coming out, you will have at least one or a few family members who love and trust you and who value evidence, who will become aware of the problems about the church, become aware of the history and. Or become aware of the potential harm that will be caused by their continued membership.

John Dehlin [01:27:50] And they'll become enlightened, they'll wake up and they'll take control of their lives. That's why I do Mormon Stories podcast. That's why lots of other people do what they do. And so you shouldn't expect that anybody's going to care or respond, but there will be a few who do. And those people will probably always feel indebted to you for your love and compassion and for the sacrifice you make by disclosing. So that's a reason to disclose.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:18] Margi, one thing. Can I go back to your parenting idea where you were talking about raising healthy kids that how, how could you do that without the church? And I think I just wanted to make that connection, that it goes back to the thought when I Was answering.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:36] What was his name's question. What was his name? Anyway, when we were. I was, yeah, Scott's question about. And that unworthy model, that deficit model of our kids are depraved. See, and. And we as parents are programmed in the church that we are wholly responsible for them, like for their actions, for their choices. And so we're looking at them like you're an empty cup, like, we need help. We need help giving you morals because look how like, we know you're depraved. So we just need all the help we can get. We need the church and we need these magazines and we need to be doing.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:10] And it creates this anxiety and frenzy all around. Scarcity, around their goodness. And that's. That's just something that's very interesting when religion creates a problem that then only they can solve, basically. And I just really. I don't believe that anymore. I look at my kids and it makes me feel sad that for so long that was the way I thought of them.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:36] And now I look at them and it's strange because we have two older children and then there's a little bit of a gap. And then we have two younger, and we parented two teens, and amidst the excommunication, but mostly in the church until they left home. And then we have two younger ones that were teens and not parented in the church. And the connection we had to rehabilitate our relationship with our older two, to connect in a way that we were able to foster with our younger two without religion, without that layer of. Of seeing them as like, you're gonna get into trouble. You've got no virtue, you've got no inherent ethics and values.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:17] And so, you know, you're just a mess waiting to happen, and we gotta get you there on Sunday and how are you? And there's just so much anxiety and that goes into that, as opposed to just looking at them as, you know, worthy, inherently worthy humans. And from there, connecting with them as they are. And what do you want and what are you feeling and how are you connecting with school or not? And, you know, how can we show up for you? Or like, do you need space? Or. It's just a profoundly different experience that having had those two and being able to actually compare and contrast them, I. I really challenge that belief and I think it does a lot of harm.

John Dehlin [01:31:01] Love it. Thank you, sweetie. That's powerful stuff. Okay, so altruism is one of. Is the third of four reasons we have to disclose, and then the fourth reason we have to disclose which is probably the most important reason of all. All, ladies and gentlemen, and not gender, non binary people, I now present to you what Margi and I, and maybe even Carah, believe is the most important reason to disclose. And that is emotional intimacy with loved ones. People that have earned our trust. Now, Margi, this was yours. And so if it's okay, I'm gonna have you start this one and then I'll chime in. Chime in. Is that okay?

Margi Dehlin [01:31:48] Yes. And I think we're going to touch on it a little bit later as well with the who segment. So I'm going to keep mine short. But what I would say is there are times where people, we have people in our lives who have earned the right to hear our vulnerability or some of those kind of tougher things where if we were to share it, it will actually build intimacy in the relationship as opposed to if we don't share it. And then it eventually comes out or then it can feel like a loss or a bit of a. I wouldn't want to say necessarily a betrayal, but I guess it could, but sort of like, why didn't you trust me with that?

Margi Dehlin [01:32:31] Or why didn't you feel comfortable sharing that? And so. And being able to really show up in this, all the beauty of what comes from when we're vulnerable with each other and we hold it and we, you know, love and show up for each other in that space. It's like a beautiful, beautiful thing.

John Dehlin [01:32:50] Yeah. Amen. And I'll. I'll put. Maybe I'll say it a different way as well, just to kind of give you backup. And what I would say there is that one of the biggest things you need to be mindful of as you've gone through a faith crisis is not making your loved ones feel betrayed.

John Dehlin [01:33:16] They are. They are likely going to feel like you've betrayed them anyway just by losing your faith. Because if, for example, if you're in a marriage, that temple marriage where both of you believe, then you lose your faith, they're going to feel like you betrayed them by losing your faith. They're going to say you broke the deal. Your parents may feel betrayed, your siblings may feel betrayed, your ward members, if you've been a leader in your ward or stake, all the other people who depended on you are going to feel betrayed.

John Dehlin [01:33:47] That is likely to happen. But if we're dealing with the spouse particularly, you don't want to add to existing feelings of betrayal. Also the extra baggage of them feeling like you lied and hid things from them. I have seen marriages end Or I've seen people in faith crisis dig even bigger holes for themselves as they hid their faith crisis from the people they loved most. And not only then did they have to manage the mixed faith relationship. They had to rebuild the trust of the person who felt betrayed that you hid something from them or lied to them or kept it from them for too long.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] This usually happens when you, like, you know, a man. You know, a man or woman will go on a business trip and start taking off their garments while away, or they secretly stop paying their tithing, or they're reading and studying all these books and they're discovering all these problems, and they keep it from their loved ones, who they should be trusting and loving and. And being fully honest with. So if you are in a relationship where your loved one might feel betrayed by you not disclosing to them, then I highly recommend disclosing, or you risk something potentially not very good happening. So that is, you know, that's.

John Dehlin [01:35:18] And so you know that, really, I think. Oh, and the other part of that is your children. So check this out. A brother, brother and sister, and non binary friends. The last thing I ever want to do as a parent. And I thought about this as I had lost my faith and I was raising my kids in the church. I thought, wow, why don't I just not tell my kids? Let them enjoy all the benefits of being raised in the church. And then when they're 30, I can tell them I lost my faith. Then I envisioned the day where my kids. Let's just say they discover they get married.

John Dehlin [01:35:50] Let's say they. They go to seminary, they cave to the pressure, they go on a mission, they go to byu, they get married in the temple, and then they learn that the church wasn't true, or they realized that they're gay or lesbian or bisexual or transgender, whatever the case may be. Or they just sacrifice educational opportunities or a career that they would have had. They would have made very different choices. They would have had kids later, or maybe not had kids at all. Whatever the reasons are, the last thing you want, trust me, is your kid coming to you. When they're 30 or 40, their life is blown up, they're in the midst of a divorce, kids are involved.

John Dehlin [01:36:29] And your kids are saying to you, oh, wait, you knew all along that the church wasn't true and you didn't tell me. And I made all these crucial life decisions based on information that you withheld from me. I don't think you want that.

John Dehlin [01:36:48] So for those reasons, for the people who are under your Care for the people who rely on you for. As a matter of trust and of confidence, especially for a spouse or children. I think you owe it to them. That's my opinion. You may feel differently. I feel like you owe it to them to disclose. Carah.

Carah Burrell [01:37:09] The only thing I want to add to that is that's so true. I'm glad that I kind of went through a faith deconstruction. I don't care if people stay in the church, but I think people should confront the problems with the church on one hand, the harm it does, and then the truth claims of the church. I think every Mormon should go through deconstruct. And then if you want to reconstruct a more nuanced version of the church and how you're going to make it work, I encourage people to do that. But I do think it's in everyone's best interest to come face to face with these issues.

Carah Burrell [01:37:36] So the way that I just was kind of thinking about what John just said is I wish that I would have deconstructed earlier. Like, my sister left the church and she didn't want to tell me anything, and I wish that she would have. And my. My husband, he was speaking of emotional intimacy. He went probably an entire year listening to Mormon stories. And I was like, what are you listening to? You know, we were like renovating a house. And he would be like, I'm listening to this. It's kind of interesting. But I was kind of like, I don't know about that. John de Lynn, you know, and so I wish he would have shared with me and had the emotional intimacy, but he was too afraid that I would have because I think I said something stupid when I was like, newlywed, that, like, if you ever left the church or you weren't a priesthood holder, I would divorce you.

Carah Burrell [01:38:15] I said something stupid like that that I had no idea I said that was still in his head. So he was petrified of being emotionally intimate about the things he was learning. And he didn't. He was going through his own personal, quiet deconstruction. And so I think, to John's point of like a smart reason to declutter. Disclose something to a loved one, even though there are. It has to be weighed and has to be smart. I personally wish that the people who left the church around me would have shared things with me earlier, even if it meant I just kind of was more nuanced, didn't take things so seriously.

Carah Burrell [01:38:49] I probably would have done a better job of like, loving gay people earlier, you know, like that's not a bad thing to do. You know, just like coming to a more nuanced perspective in my early 20s instead of late 20s, you know, it's kind of how I think of it.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:02] That's super valid. And I don't, I, I don't think you're alone in that either. I've heard so many people say the same. Like, I wish I had known earlier. I wish I had found out earlier. So I'm just gonna say I really love what you said and that you added children. Because I also, I think anytime you're with close people and they're observing behavior, we just don't want to create patterns of lying.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:25] I just don't find that to be a great template for healthy relationships. So if you have a child that's like, I've noticed, why is mom not going to church? Or, you know, if you're in kind of a mixed faith situation and one person is starting not to go to church, and you have that, you know, person saying, oh, I don't feel well, or I don't feel.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:44] Kids tend to, over time, they can sniff these things out. So being able to kind of create a template for healthy relation over relationships overall and not creating patterns of sort of lying, evasiveness and how you disclose and what you disclose, as we've kind of talked about a little bit, you. You can do a lot with that. You can choose how much you say, how you know to what level it becomes disruptive or dramatic or scary. You have a. There's a, there are a lot of tools and things you can work with to convey that in ways that I think for a child, it wouldn't be particularly disruptive.

John Dehlin [01:40:24] And actually we have an entire series on the gift of the Mormon Faith crisis about how to come out to your children after you have a crisis of faith. So we can put a link to that. Also, specific episode in the show notes.

John Dehlin [01:40:37] There is an episode on coming out to your kids, and it's like three hours of just coming out to your kids. And so we want to add that to the show notes. I'm going to add also, Carah, on top of what you said about Aaron, I cannot tell you how many couples I've met where the, the wife and the husband were both going through a faith crisis, but were both afraid to tell the other, sometimes for years.

John Dehlin [01:41:04] And then finally one is, like, about to not want to live anymore. And they come out to their spouse terrorized, terrified at what the consequence might be. And the spouse was like, me too, me too.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:18] Yeah. At the same time.

John Dehlin [01:41:19] And I've seen this happen with parent and child relationships. I've seen this happen in sibling relationships. Now, don't get your hopes up. That's not going to be the norm, but it happens way more often than you think. And for sure, if you, if and when you come out publicly, there will be cousins or aunts and uncles, nephews, nieces, missionary companions. I mean, Carah, when you did your Mormon Stories episode, did you find a bunch of people come out of the woodworks?

Carah Burrell [01:41:48] Yeah, yeah, especially my family. My parents are converts, so not my family as much, but my husband's family for sure. Crisco bike is always in the comments. That's my husband's cousin. So just tons of people came out of the woodwork. And I. I love reconnecting with people that we don't have. I mean, normally you don't have anything to talk about, but now with faith crisis stuff, you have endless amounts of stuff to talk about. Every single person that I've gone to high school with in Provo that's lost their Faith has probably DM'd me, you know, so, like, that's kind of fun, like, to reconnect with people.

Carah Burrell [01:42:17] And people feel less alone. I feel less alone. You feel like you're less crazy and stuff. So, yeah, like John was saying, like, don't get your hopes up necessarily, but, like, you will be a little bit invigorated and a little bit surprised, I think, by how many people are sharing in the same struggles and it'll make you feel less alone.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:33] So, yeah, beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:42:36] Yeah, totally. Okay, so I am gonna do a call an audible here. As they say in the football biz, we. We are. We still want to do role play because that's part of the. The part of this series that people really like most. We've only got 15 minutes before we hit the two hour mark. And so I'm going to call an audible. There's going to be a part three to this series, which I don't think is horrible. I think that this is such an intense and in demand topic. This is probably, like I say, the number one topic I ever get. So we need to do at least two more hours on it. Is that okay, Marky Boo?

Margi Dehlin [01:43:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:10] Yeah. Okay, Carah, is that all right?

Carah Burrell [01:43:11] Can I just read one comment really quick? So, H. Benduzula, that sounds really good with my, like, puberty rasp here too. Gave 50 in the super chat. I just want to thank them for that real quick. And Melissa mentioned, is truth more important or is comfort my faith Crisis was the most painful, most difficult thing I ever went through. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. However, I am so grateful I went through it. And I totally agree with that as well. I remember thinking to myself, crying on the phone to my sister once, like, I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy. So that's balancing the compassion and stuff, but also, it's so complicated.

Role Play: Responding to a Believing Parent or Ward Member

Carah Burrell [01:43:52] It's so messy. I think that's what the entire, like, too long didn't read of this. This podcast is about. It's. It's messy, it's difficult. Just lead with compassion. Lead with empathy. And for all sides, for people in the church, outside of the church, people being harmed by the church, people who benefit from the church. Just be smart. Take everything into consideration when going into these conversations and then know that for yourself at the end of the day, take care of yourself.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:16] Yes.

Carah Burrell [01:44:17] Find. Find new tools to rebuild your life. And yeah, thank you, Melissa, for that comment.

John Dehlin [01:44:22] Yeah, love it.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:23] And compassion for yourself, too. You know, you've never done this before, and for many of us, we can feel like snails without a shell. It can feel really overwhelming. We can feel really tender. And so having some compassion for yourself as you. As you go about it. And I think it does tend to get better. So if I can just kind of send that message too.

Carah Burrell [01:44:44] Yeah. I remember Sam Shelley in a self on the shelf video that I found early on in my faith crisis. I remember she said early on, like, you will do it wrong. That made me feel so much better.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:53] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:44:54] Of like, you will mess it up. You will do it wrong. Accept that to begin with and then, like, think about how to do it less wrong, knowing that you're already gonna probably do it wrong. Things will be compassionate with yourself. You've never done this before. This is a whole different terrain of coming out to family and friends. This is a whole different part of your brain that's being operated that's probably never been tapped into before. You're growing into a new self. So, yes, be like super compassionate for yourself while you're trying to balance these things. It's overwhelming, for sure. But guess what? There's totally a community here that's done it, that's in the trenches with you. We got your back. And I also wanted to ask, are we going to be doing a Q A at the end or do you want me just to integrate the comments as I find them?

John Dehlin [01:45:30] So I'm. I'm torn because I.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:33] We.

John Dehlin [01:45:33] We agreed we wouldn't go over two hours and there's. I Just saw a couple really great questions or comments and we really want to do a little role play. So let's do a little role play and then if there's time, we'll answer a question or two. But we'll also, Carah, if you don't mind and well, let me just ask this. Anyone who's watching or listening, if you've got a comment or question, go to the post the episode on Mormon Stories podcast called Telling believing family and friends and you've lost your faith, it's like eight episodes back and post it as a comment. And then what we'll do on one of the follow up episodes is we'll remember some of these questions or comments and we'll address them as part of the series. I just don't want to finish this episode without doing some role play.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:14] And if we have enough questions, we could probably even do a Q and A episode.

John Dehlin [01:46:17] Yeah, we'll do a cute.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:18] We will if there. Yeah. Or enough. Know that that's something we can do.

John Dehlin [01:46:23] Yep. Plus I have to always tease care that we know that Carah loves roleplay because she told us that on Mormon stories. Yeah, true.

Carah Burrell [01:46:31] Brilliant. Yeah. We just circle back to it time

Margi Dehlin [01:46:34] and time and time again because it never gets endlessly.

Carah Burrell [01:46:36] Apparently the more I overshare, the more water we'll have to talk about.

John Dehlin [01:46:41] Okay, so we're going to role play to two scenarios really quick. The first scenario and the reason why we role play is because people really struggle to know what words to use. And so role playing helps you get a sense for actually how to host a conversation. So we thought of at least two role plays. If you guys want to recommend other quick role plays, we will pay attention to it. But the first role play we're going to do today is a ward member who is saying to you, this is a common scenario where, where a ward member is trying to dig about why you have stopped coming to church and they want to dig.

John Dehlin [01:47:29] And let's just say that you're not ready to disclose anything yet, but they're trying to pry by asking about you. And so I'm going to be the ward member, the annoying, well intended, believing ward member. And Margi, you're going to be. You're going to model a boundaried response. How does that sound? Okay, do you want to model a boundary response?

Margi Dehlin [01:47:54] Yes, I will.

John Dehlin [01:47:54] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:55] I will give it my all.

John Dehlin [01:47:56] Okay, so this is, this question is always maddening because, you know, it's not like you moved. You know, if you lose your faith, they, they know where to find you. So when they say I'm missing you, it's kind of silly because they pretty much always know where you live and they could visit you at any time. But anyway, having said that, I am now going to play the. We're at the grocery store and I'm bumping into you, and you haven't been to church in three months. All right, ready? Oh, Marky.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:27] Hey there.

John Dehlin [01:48:28] How's it going?

Margi Dehlin [01:48:29] It's going pretty well. How about you? How's life been?

John Dehlin [01:48:33] It's. It's good. Yeah, it's good. Hey, you know, I just had to say we've. We've really missed you at church, man. We've missed you.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:45] Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:48:49] Yeah, but, like, we've missed you. Like, it's. It's been weird not seeing you there. Like, is everything okay? Like, is there anything, like, we could do to help?

Margi Dehlin [01:48:59] Oh, thanks so much. Yeah. Things are going pretty well. Yeah. Thank you. I really appreciate it.

John Dehlin [01:49:06] Yeah. But, like, I. I was just wondering, like, what's. What's going on? Is. Is there something going on that we should know about? Because we just. We love you so much and we just want to help you. Is. Is there anything we can do to help?

Margi Dehlin [01:49:20] Oh, I don't. I don't think I need any help right now, but I really appreciate the offer. How. How has life been for you? I would probably redirect at that point or I might move on. So a redirect would be like, how's Mike been doing? How's the family? What have you guys been up to? If I wanted to continue with this person, if I like this person well enough, which I. Then you can redirect at this point, I would probably say, you know, I'd probably doing body cues where I'm pushing my cart and kind of getting further and further as we're repeating. But part of holding a boundary is also just repeating. It's one of the best things you can do.

John Dehlin [01:49:58] Yeah. So I'll say. Yeah, you know, we're all great here. Like, we've been loving church, and we had a great lesson on Sunday about, you know, the covenant path and how important it is to stay on the covenant path. That's been amazing. And honestly, like, I've. We've missed your kids, too. Like, your kids, you know, we haven't seen them in primary or in young men's or young women's. We would just love. Is there. Is there anything we can do to kind of get you guys back to church?

Margi Dehlin [01:50:29] Oh, so we're back. Even though I said okay. So a really insistent person, I'd say, yeah. One thing I like to do is repeat what they've said. So, like, I haven't seen you at church. I'll say, yeah, we haven't been at church. Yeah, thanks so much for the interest. Have a great day. And I would leave or, you know,

John Dehlin [01:50:48] you're a little more abrupt than me. I would have a hard time doing that.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:51] Well, I don't mind people feeling a boundary. I don't mind. So I like to boundary with warmth if I can. So I'll start with warmth. I don't always have to have warmth if the person is disrespecting the boundary. But I like to start to pair a boundary with warmth. So I'm smiling at her. I have a fair amount of pain of patience. But you don't have to, like, there are no rules here, you know? And if it's a person who is not your friend, you definitely don't have to be overly warm. I just like that pairing of like, you're going to receive a boundary from me. I'm going to be warm. And it may feel like a boundary because that's, that's a good lesson for you that you're actually, you actually are overstepping.

John Dehlin [01:51:34] Yeah. And I think we're taught that it's our job to help make everything okay for everybody else within Mormonism. Like, our job is to make sure no one else feels bad. Our parents can't feel bad. We don't want to offend our ward member. We don't want to make a bishop or someone feel uncomfortable. And I think what I learned from Brene Brown is that sometimes you do boundaries because you love people, not because you hate them. You do boundaries because you want to have a chance of saving the relationship, not because you want to ruin it. And so sometimes a boundary may feel shocking to somebody. It may make them sad or feel off put. But the truth is sometimes that can be the only way to have the relationship even survive. Is that true?

Margi Dehlin [01:52:16] That's right. Because it limits the damage and the exposure of this interaction.

John Dehlin [01:52:22] Yeah. It's like a good. It's like good fences make good neighbors. So I'd like to drop back into role play one more time. I'm going to be more persistent.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:30] So can we. You be a new person or you're the same person?

John Dehlin [01:52:33] Yeah. I just want you to model. Just instead of just driving your shark shopping cart away, I want you to. Are you smiling?

Carah Burrell [01:52:40] I have a joke.

John Dehlin [01:52:41] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:52:42] Because it's like, that's not uncommon, like, living in Salt Lake that, like, around the corner, there's another person from church who also is like, oh, hey, you haven't been to church a while. So if you say no to one person from your ward, there's another one at the grocery store who's around the corner as well. It's just. That's the nature of living in Utah sometimes.

John Dehlin [01:52:58] So I. I do. I. In short of you just walking off with your shopping cart while they're, like, talking.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:02] No, I held it. I created a boundary and held it

John Dehlin [01:53:05] first, and I want to just take it a little bit further.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:07] Okay, go.

John Dehlin [01:53:08] So. So. So you asked me about my husband or whatever. My spouse. And I just want to come back and I just want to say, okay, so, yeah, my husband's great. Or my. My. My wife's great. But we've really missed you. In particular, we've missed your children. We really love your children, and we love having them in young women's and young men's. Little Johnny is so cute in primary. We miss his voice, and we're just really worried that they're not getting the love and the help they need. So is there really. Is there anything we. What's going on? Can you just tell me what's happened? Like, I'm really curious. What, What's. Is there something that's caused you guys to. To no longer come?

Margi Dehlin [01:53:50] So I really feel your love and concern, and thank you for that. I feel like I've answered this a number of times now around what's happening, and all I can say to you is there's nothing really that's happening with us other than we're not attending church right now. So I really appreciate. I'm glad to hear that everyone's well, that your husband is doing well, and I. I kind of have to go now, but I'm wishing you well. Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:54:19] Why would. Why would you. Why would anyone not attend church?

Margi Dehlin [01:54:24] Like, now. I would now. I've already said goodbye. Now, this is the thing. There are people that want to engage with you.

John Dehlin [01:54:32] Taps out, man.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:33] There are. I've. I did this for, like, years in Logan. Years in Logan. There. There are people that they don't mind. I. Here's my new favorite boundary phrase from holistic psychologists that I'm teaching my children right now, and I just love it. I'm really surprised you feel comfortable asking me that. Just let it lie. Like, just let it float in the air.

John Dehlin [01:54:57] Let's practice that.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:58] I'm really surprised you feel comfortable.

John Dehlin [01:55:00] I'm going to be the. I'm going to be the annoying word person. So is there anything that's happened in your marriage that's caused you guys to stop coming to church? Is there some? Is like, are your kids okay? Is there something wrong? Wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:15] Like, I really hear your concern, Brent, in that, and that feels kind of personal. I'm really surprised you feel comfortable asking me that.

John Dehlin [01:55:27] That is so non Mormon of an answer.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:29] And this is why. And this is why. Boundaries are like a new language for people. Self advocating is like something we never saw modeled, we've never done for most of us. So it is a skill. It's like a language. But like any other skill, it can be learned. Any other language, you can practice and learn it. And it. It. What I like about it is it's information for the person if they want to receive it. But it. It also keeps you healthy. It keeps you in a place of empowerment as opposed to every time you run into someone in the store, really, you're going to feel thrashed by whatever comes out of their mouth.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:10] Like, that's a hard way to live. That's no way to live. Especially in Utah where the population is such. It is. And the percentage of Mormons. Right. Yeah. I feel strongly about it because to me, I work a lot with women and caretakers and it. This is something that comes up all the time. All the time. And it is such an exhausting way to live.

John Dehlin [01:56:34] Yeah. I love it. Can we. I want to extend the role play just a tiny bit. Will you now be the annoying ward member? And I'm going to tell you how I would answer. An overly persistent, great person. So let's just flip it around. You're going to be the. The busy body ward member.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:51] And I'm going to be. I'm going to try and model how I would respond. Is that okay? Okay, go ahead.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:56] I don't. Oh, my gosh. It's been so long since I've seen you. It must have been. Wow. It's. It's been. It feels like even months since you've been at church and boy, we've been. What's been going on?

John Dehlin [01:57:08] Oh, hey. How's it going? It's so good to see you. I've missed you too. And yeah, honestly, everything's great. Like, Margi's great, the kids are great, and things have honestly never been better. So it's so kind of you to ask. We've missed you. To swing by if, you know, if you're ever walking down the road and you see Us, we'd love to talk. Like, we're just. We love you guys and we miss you guys, too. And anytime you guys want to talk, just let us know.

Carah Burrell [01:57:37] But.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:37] But you've disappeared, is the thing. It's just like we never see what is. What has happened there. There must have been something that has changed because we. We used to see you and now we just. We don't ever.

John Dehlin [01:57:52] You know what? Everything is great. Like, literally, things have never been better. I'm doing really well at work. I'm traveling some. Margi's doing great. My kids are awesome. And there's. There's literally nothing wrong. In fact, things are better than they've ever been.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:06] But. But the change, though, I mean, just the change of what? You attending. And now we just don't. We don't see you at all. There's that, you know, that change. And your kids just. Your kids aren't going to church anymore. And we care about. I'm used to seeing them there in primary. Johnny and Betsy and, you know, Logan there and, you know, I mean, I'm just. Have you thought about your kids?

John Dehlin [01:58:36] Yeah. It's so that, you know, I can tell you really care about me and my family, and I really, really appreciate that. And I just want to say that. That we're totally fine. Everything is great. And I can tell you, really, you're concerned about us, that we're not attending. And all I just want to say is just, you know, everything's great. We're just. We're doing our thing right now. We've stepped a little bit back from the church, not because there's any problem, but we're just kind of thinking through stuff and figuring stuff out, and I. That might be weird or hard for you, but everything. I'm just telling you we're happier than we've ever been, and we're doing great.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:22] Yeah, you've stepped back. That's it. You've stepped. Be careful, John. I feel like once you do that, I've. My uncle. My uncle thought for a while he was having questions, and he just. And their family. Oh, what their family went through. It was terrible. It was just. I don't. I don't think you want this, John. I just. I don't think you want to step back. I'm not sure that you're thinking of your kids, of. And you may be thinking it's one thing now, but, you know, I'm telling you, I've seen it. I've seen it in my own family, and it does not play Out.

John Dehlin [02:00:03] Well, can I just say, you are so kind to care so much about us. I can feel your love. I'm channeling my inner Leo Leah Young here. I can feel your love. I know it's sincere. I really appreciate it. And I just have to tell you, Margi and I are happier than we've ever been. Our kids are doing great, and I just. Thank you so much for your concern. I'll. I'll note it, but we're doing great and I wish you well. Maybe we'll come back and visit right now. The best thing you can do for us right now is not make us a project and not.

John Dehlin [02:00:37] Not even worry about us. Just give us the space to kind of just work through stuff, and that would be the best gift. The last thing we want to feel is like people are gossiping about us or judging us.

John Dehlin [02:00:49] So if. If, if, if, you know, if you care about us, really care about us, and if you want to even have a hope that we'll ever come back, I. I think I just want to say that the kindest thing you can do for us is just to love us as we are. Not as members, not as people who attend, but just love us and accept us as human beings and not gossip about us and just treat us like you.

John Dehlin [02:01:14] You know, love us and care about us for who we are, not directly tied to our relationship with the church. Could you do that for us and for our kids, mostly? Is there a way you could just love us unconditionally and not have all this factor into it?

Margi Dehlin [02:01:30] You know, I. I just can't imagine. I can't imagine you saying that you're happier than ever. I can't imagine that being true with you. You stepping away. You know, I know you think you're doing the right thing. I know you do. It's clear you think you're doing the right thing, but I know I've seen it. And so best of luck to you, John.

John Dehlin [02:01:51] Love you. It's good to see you. Take care and swing by anytime. You guys are awesome and take care.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:59] Okay? Can I just say, your approach is so you. And I could not live my life in Logan or like, doing that with as often as I saw people. My whole day would be talking and explaining to people who actually I don't have a relationship with anymore. I'd be like, I'm talking. More of my time is being put into grocery store and whatever, dry cleaners and the people at the. But that is so you. And for. For some people, that, that. That situation, they could Use that for someone in the church, for example, who they liked a little bit more or who they had. So I like that. We are a foil.

John Dehlin [02:02:39] Yeah, we can, we can. Different approaches differentiate and see things differently. As you mentioned, I am the. I'm the great overseas disclosure. And so for me, if they're going to really get in my craw, so to speak, then I'm going to have the conversation because it's kind of fun for me. I'm not, I'm not going to try and like, dash their world, but I'll engage. I have to. I have to admit, I take a slightly perverse pleasure in, like having that type of conversation with somebody.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:05] That was. That was a wee bit clear.

John Dehlin [02:03:07] And frankly, I couldn't do more of a story's podcast probably if that weren't true. Carah, what are you laughing about?

Carah Burrell [02:03:14] Just, you're like saying that you're the king of over disclosure. I was like, yeah, look at what you do for a living. Like, oh, somebody wants to talk to me at the grocery store. Like, yeah, I'll engage.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:23] Bring it, bring it.

Carah Burrell [02:03:24] Like, my peas in the frozen aisle are like melting in my cart. I think, John, you would spend a half an hour explaining yourself and being, like, very articulate. I just was gonna read a comment from Jared that said that people are really enjoying these role plays. By the way, this is my favorite part here and at home anyway. And they said about the part, like, I think we can also talk about what's working for us. We miss your kids. They need a good foundation. And you can reply with like, actually, we've been doing X thing. That's been working for us really well, going back to what we started this podcast with, like, what is working for us?

Carah Burrell [02:03:59] Great. I feel like, oh, you've been missing us at church. Do you think it'd be an appropriate time to tell them, like, oh, we haven't been there because where we're doing other things, things that work for us

John Dehlin [02:04:07] on Sundays now what you can say is, oh, yeah, my kids are. You know what? I'll tell you something exciting about my kids. They're going to be attending the Thrive conference on November 14, where Jesse Funk is going to be doing an especially for Truth sort of Thrive youth focused event. I'm kidding. I'm teasing a little bit, actually. That's true. If you have youth who need community and support, Thrive, Nov. 14. They can register at thrivebeyondreligion.com and attend an event catered to youth. It's going to be amazing. But anyway, I was joking.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:38] Well, you provided a script right there. A valuable script. Yes. I think those words could work amazingly well when they say, oh, whatever, we miss your kids, that you can say, hey, we've been speaking of our kids. We've, we've been doing this and this with them and it seems to be working well, you know, and that's why you haven't seen us as much. Brilliant.

Carah Burrell [02:04:58] Yeah, thanks, Jared, for that comment.

John Dehlin [02:05:01] Yeah, love it. Okay, one last role play and then we're going to end for today and we're going to do a part three and maybe a part four of this series. So, Margi, I'm going to play the role of a bishop. Mormon bishop. You're going to play the role of needing to ask to be released from your calling.

Carah Burrell [02:05:18] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:05:20] And I'm not going to want you to be released. And then once I begrudgingly accept you being released, I'm gonna try and find out why. And your job is to just smile. But also, you don't want to be perceived as a threat.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:37] Okay. So I value you.

John Dehlin [02:05:39] You're in the scenario now of valuing that.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:41] So maybe I have a mixed faith, like my, my husband still goes or something.

John Dehlin [02:05:45] Or you. Or you would. You know, you live in Utah and you don't want your kids to be shunned, so you don't want to tell them about the CES letter. You don't want to over disclose and you want him to leave feeling good, even if it means you're going to have to bite your tongue and smile and repeat something over and over again. But I'm going to challenge you not to do the shopping aisle thing where you just bolt with your shopping cart. I want you to leave me feeling good.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:10] I gave you three boundaries before I moved my cart.

John Dehlin [02:06:13] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:13] That was quite generous.

John Dehlin [02:06:14] Well, I'm going to be an overbearing bishop and I'm going to challenge you with responding in a way where I feel good at the end of our

Margi Dehlin [02:06:21] conversation knowing that I can't hold how you feel.

John Dehlin [02:06:25] Sure.

Carah Burrell [02:06:25] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:06:26] Just within reason, this is going to

Margi Dehlin [02:06:27] be a challenge for me because I, as a female, having been in offices, like, I don't mind making bishops a little bit uncomfortable. So. But I'll, I'll try.

John Dehlin [02:06:38] Margi, sweet little Margi doesn't suffer fools. And that is one thing about Margi. I'm like, waving to the person that was mean to us. And Margi just kind of like, huh, you know, she's not overly nice to people who have hurt our feelings.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:52] Yeah. Or I don't extend like, oh, come by. You can see us. Because I'm like, I don't want to see you in any form.

John Dehlin [02:06:58] I'm not inviting another way for you

Margi Dehlin [02:07:00] to come see us.

Carah Burrell [02:07:02] I was just laughing. But I love how Margi's like, I don't mind making bishops uncomfortable. It's like Bishop's M.O. is like, making other people uncomfortable. So it's like, let's dish it out a little bit.

John Dehlin [02:07:11] It's their job description. All right, well, we'll. We'll see how you do. Is that okay, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [02:07:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:07:15] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:16] So you know how I do. Are you assessing me? Are you going to decide how well I do?

John Dehlin [02:07:19] No, I have unconditional regard. Regard? Yeah. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:24] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:07:24] So. Hey, Sister Delynn, so good to see you.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:27] What'd you want to talk about?

Margi Dehlin [02:07:28] Well, first off, thanks for meeting with me. I know you're probably busy.

John Dehlin [02:07:31] Oh, my pleasure. This is why I exist, so I'm happy to help you. How can I help?

Margi Dehlin [02:07:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:37] Hope everything. I hope everything's okay. Is everything okay?

Margi Dehlin [02:07:40] Yeah. Yeah, things are. Things are going pretty well.

John Dehlin [02:07:43] Well, I. You know, I just want to say that we just love having you in primary. It's been so great. You've been so good with the kids, and we just can't thank you enough for your service in Primary.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:52] I really appreciate that, and I've really enjoyed my time in primary and I really have enjoyed being with the kids the last year and a half, you know, giving lessons and getting to know them. So that's been a pleasure. I did want to let you know, however, about a change that I'm feeling, and I just kind of feel like the timing with our family and some things going on, it's going to be really helpful for me to be released from my calling now.

John Dehlin [02:08:22] Oh, my gosh. What's. What's wrong? What's going on?

Margi Dehlin [02:08:24] Oh, there's nothing in particular that's wrong. It's just, I think with the timing and some things that are going on with regard to kind of time management and kind of where we find ourselves, we just are. It would be a. I've thought about it, and I feel like it's a good time to be released for me.

John Dehlin [02:08:44] Well, Sister Delenna, I really appreciate you come. Appreciate you coming.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:46] Of course.

John Dehlin [02:08:47] I appreciate your honesty with me, but I just want you to know you can trust me. And I. I will. You know, I. I pray regularly. Like, I. I take my position as bishop very seriously. And I just want you to know you can tell me. I Care about you and your family. And so I want you to know you can tell me when something is wrong. I want to know because I want to be able to help you.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:14] Oh, I appreciate that. I really do. No, it's really just a timing thing, but thanks.

John Dehlin [02:09:22] So, like, I mean, in my mind as a bishop, I'm not stepping out of the role play. I'm like, okay, is her husband looking at pornography? Is he cheating on her? Is she cheating on him? Are they bankrupt? Like, did someone lose their job? Okay, so I'm gonna step back into role play. So, like, is. Is your husband doing okay? Is there anything I should know about what's going on there?

Margi Dehlin [02:09:45] Oh, yeah, he's doing. But you could ask him too. But, yeah, he's doing great.

John Dehlin [02:09:50] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:50] Again, really, there's nothing going on. This is more of a timing thing, balance of family type of situation, and I'm needing to rebalance. So really a timing thing. So. Yeah. So if we could talk about the releasing, what would really work for me with the releasing and what I have to offer is I kind of feel like I could probably show up for two to three more lessons. Let's just say three more lessons I can teach. And after that, I'm gonna have to say I'm probably. You can't count on me for that anymore. So I did feel like I wanted to let you know. I think this is.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:23] I'm going to step out now. This is a really important part. Because otherwise, by the time people hit the bishop's office, they've usually been suffering for a long time. Like, it's not easy for many people to kind of take this, make this move, is what I'd say. And so by the time you get here, most people are exhausted, feeling frayed, feeling overwhelmed. And so what can happen is the bishop has a sense of. Sense of. And this isn't intentional, but there's a sense of power around. You don't know when you're going to get released. It's not up to you. When you get released. It could be two months from now.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:59] They can start saying, we don't have a person. We're still looking. We're. And then you're in someone else's hand. So I, like, I'm. I'm making an intervention here and saying what I can offer. Right. This is a service, what I provide. I'm not getting paid. So that's. That's what I'm doing. I just wanted to explain it. So. So what I.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:20] So going back into role play, what I'm saying is, you know, so, yes, I thought it was really important to mention that. I feel like I probably. I have about three months. I mean, three weeks more of lessons. I feel comfortable I could teach through that. And I'm willing, I'm totally willing to offer that. After that, probably pull in primary president or substitutes or. You're going to probably have to figure it out from there. But I did want to let you know that.

John Dehlin [02:11:42] So, Sister Dylan, would it be okay if, if I just. I'll start looking and I, I just. If it's okay, can I let you know when, when we find a replacement. Could you just keep serving until we find a replacement?

Margi Dehlin [02:11:56] Unfortunately not. I wish I could definitely. If it's earlier, let me know. I would love to hear that. But if I'm going to have to say three weeks, I've really felt like I've thought about it and three weeks is kind of what I have. But I am willing to offer that. And I know, I know the primary has substitute. A substitute list. I mean, that's something. Sure. They can figure it out.

John Dehlin [02:12:19] Okay. Sister Dylan, I appreciate it and I'll, I'll. I'll get you released and thank you so much for your service. I just have to ask you this, though. There have been several members of the church lately that have been losing their faith, struggling in their testimony, and I just want to know, how's your testimony doing? Is your testimony okay? Is there anything I should know about, like, you know, your testimony and how your, how your faith is?

Margi Dehlin [02:12:49] Oh, you know, I'm feeling really good about where I am right now. Thank you for asking.

John Dehlin [02:12:55] But, like, is there any, you know, have you been, you or your husband been struggling with any doubts? We've had some. Some people leave the ward recently because of kind of faith crisis stuff, like listening to bad podcasts and things like John Dehlin. And so, you know, it. Is there anything like that that maybe I could help you with to resolve your concerns?

Margi Dehlin [02:13:14] So I'm, I'm stepping out now. I'm not going to speak for myself because as you said, I value my husband attending. Or. Right. My spouse attending. And maybe we have children that are attending. Is that right?

John Dehlin [02:13:26] Yep. I don't want to get them in trouble.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:28] So what I'm going to say so that now I'm stepping back in. I'm.

John Dehlin [02:13:31] But I'm.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:31] I'm blending my experience with theirs with an outcome in my values. Right.

Carah Burrell [02:13:36] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:38] So what I would say. Hold on now.

John Dehlin [02:13:44] So I'll just say, you know, a lot of people have been losing their faith lately.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:48] And I just want you to know that I've studied this stuff, and I can really help. And so is it possible that you or your husband or some family members are having a faith crisis? And is there anything, you know, I can do? Is your faith okay? How's your faith?

Margi Dehlin [02:14:03] So, again, I just. I really need you to hear me when I say this, okay? Our family's fine. Our family is fine. You've been great. I know. You know, boy, our family really enjoys the word, and we appreciate all the work you do. This is something that's about timing that I'm sensing and that I need. And so. But other than that, there's nothing for you to worry about. Thanks for your concern, though.

John Dehlin [02:14:29] I think that. I think that does it. Thank you, sweetie. That was good. Did that feel hard?

Margi Dehlin [02:14:34] No, not. Not too hard.

John Dehlin [02:14:36] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:36] I mean, I did have to pivot, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. Hopefully that was helpful.

John Dehlin [02:14:41] That was great. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, basically, what Margi just tried to model is what I call, like, biting your tongue and smiling, and you're just repeating and repeating and repeating, and eventually, if you don't want to actually harm the relationship, you just keep saying the same thing over again and smiling. So, you know, everything's great. No, thank you for asking. No, seriously, everything's great. I love you guys.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:05] Or. This is a timing thing. This is a timing thing. And you just have to say it two or three times. People get it really quick like, nope, this is a timing thing. Yes, but your family is your or is your husband. No, this is a timing thing. And once you say it two or three times, people are like, yep, I'm not getting you further.

John Dehlin [02:15:21] Yeah, the words I like to use are, oh, thank you so much for asking. No, everything's great. These things are really stressful at home right now. You know, my husband's traveling a lot, and we just kind of need to simplify. And don't worry, we love church. We love, you know, you guys. We love our community. Everyone's doing great. We just. We just need to simplify right now. But as soon as things clear up, we'll let you know, and we'll be right back, you know, potentially. So thanks for your concern. Just give us a little space, and then we'll let you know when things clear up. That's kind of the language that I like to use, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:58] Yeah, And I think this is where. Because I. I know that's your approach, and I love that that's your approach, and I've seen that approach. And so here's where you have to connect with yourself. I don't lie. So I don't say I want to see someone if I don't want to see someone because it creates more trouble for me and more problems. And then it messes with my authenticity. And I don't like feeling like I'm sacrificing authenticity. So with the bishop, I. I said things that I thought were true. My family loves. Right. I didn't say I love it. I said my family loves or my family values this ward or, you know, on a level, I can appreciate the work that you do, we appreciate the work you do.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:39] But I'm not going to say things that are overtly not true because that feels uncomfortable for me. And so everyone can be different and this is just a differentiation thing. But you'll note that in kind of when you compare contrast how I respond in some of these role plays as opposed to John.

John Dehlin [02:16:57] And for me, I. I feel fine using positive and vague language, knowing that, that it. With the intent of my language being to disarm to make them feel like I'm not a threat, to make them feel like everything is okay and to not raise alarm bells. And I'm not. I don't, I don't believe in overt lying either. But who knows? Maybe I will come back. Maybe I will change my mind.

John Dehlin [02:17:23] Yeah. So for me, I'm okay just saying words that make them feel disarmed and that make them feel reassured that everything's fine. Because really? Yeah. A bishop's going to be bummed if he can't serve in a calling, you know, and a ward member is going to like be bummed if you're not showing up. But they'd much rather just have a happy positive response than to think you are going down the rabbit hole and are about to become a threat and take a bunch of ward members with you.

John Dehlin [02:17:53] So for me, we definitely agree that the upside of just keeping it positive and light and non specific is way better than any engagement that's going to trigger their alarm bells and make them feel like there's. You're a potential threat. That's what I think.

Carah Burrell [02:18:08] Agreed.

John Dehlin [02:18:09] Okay.

Carah Burrell [02:18:09] Agreed.

Closing Part Two and Event Announcements

John Dehlin [02:18:10] All right. Well, we are not done with this topic. In fact, we only got through. Was it one of the six things that we wanted to cover? Yeah. So we are going to do a part three and maybe even a part four of communicating with believing family and friends.

John Dehlin [02:18:27] If you need more help right now, go to Mormon faithcrisis.com and you can scroll in the first 10 or 20 episodes to episodes where we go into depth on these topics. And while I'm at it, I'm just going to ask if you value Margi coming on this program, if you value Natasha coming on this program, if you value Carah helping out with this program and you want to see more Mormon faith crisis navigation content on Mormon Stories podcast, I have a favor to ask. Please go to mormonfaithcrisis.com click on the Donate button there and become a monthly donor. That money that you donate is separate from the general Mormon Stories podcast fund.

John Dehlin [02:19:09] We're trying to provide extra content in addition to the content we already provide. And if you become a monthly donor@mormonfaithcrisis.com we promise we will use all of that money to bring people like Margi and Natasha, other mental health professionals get care support. We promise to use that money to provide good content. We don't believe in bringing professionals on and not making it worth their while. And so if you value this content, we'll know that by you guys becoming a monthly donor, if we find that nobody values this content, we may just stop doing it or do it a lot less because that's how this business rolls. Sustainability is what keeps us alive. All right, so, Margi, any final words before we part for today? I love that shirt you're wearing.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:00] Thank you. I went for a pattern.

John Dehlin [02:20:02] Yeah, it's very rare. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:05] But living large.

John Dehlin [02:20:06] You look super cute.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:07] Thanks, babe. I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [02:20:08] I can say that because I'm married to you.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:10] Thank you, everyone, for the discussion today. Carah, you're a trooper.

Carah Burrell [02:20:14] Thanks. I just wanted to add that my husband is watching right now, and he did just text me that I look like I'm going snowboarding and that I look cute. So all spouses are being complimented right now.

John Dehlin [02:20:25] Aaron, you're awesome. I'll compliment you. Shout out to Aaron. Thanks for holding down the fort so Carah can come work.

Carah Burrell [02:20:32] Yeah, that's right, babe. Yeah, Aaron's awesome. He, like, got. He got a little bit like, Carah's the best. I'm gonna go clean the house for three hours last night, so.

John Dehlin [02:20:42] Holy moly.

Carah Burrell [02:20:42] Great husband award.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:43] Wow. Wow.

Carah Burrell [02:20:45] I don't know what happened. I woke up to a brand spanking clean house, like, every room, too. So all of this is possible because my husband is freaking awesome.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:54] It's amazing.

John Dehlin [02:20:55] I want to make some reference to sign language, but I'm gonna. I'm gonna show restraint.

Carah Burrell [02:21:01] All right, tell me after.

John Dehlin [02:21:04] It's a recent TikTok TikTok episode where you did a little sign language.

Carah Burrell [02:21:08] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:09] Well, sometimes I make a joke that you don't.

Carah Burrell [02:21:11] I know, I know. I took that one down. My sister said that was weird. And I was like, all right, I'll take it off. Now everyone's like, what are you guys talking about?

John Dehlin [02:21:17] We're making veiled references to nuance. Final thing, thanks to everyone who commented today. If you want to ask a question or share a concern or your scenario, please go to mormonstories.org Leave a comment in the comment section of the post. For this series. It's about six or eight episodes ago and we'll hopefully include your comment or question on air. Thanks to everyone who commented or asked questions today. If we didn't get to your comment or question again, please go post it on mormonstories.org in the comment section. We'll include it in a future episode. And the last thing I just want to do is just remind everybody we've got a ton of really cool Thrive events coming up.

John Dehlin [02:21:57] Natasha and I and Margi are doing a retreat in just a few weeks in mid October in Provo, Orem. If you want to spend two and a half days with me, Margi and Natasha get all sorts of content and specialized content for healing and growth. You can go to, you can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com events and you can sign up for that retreat. You could also. Well, Thrive for Women is this weekend, but it's already sold out. So if you don't have you, don't forget if you have a ticket, don't forget if you do have a ticket, make sure and go. You'll see the wonderful, amazing Carah, Natasha, Margi will be there as a participant. Dana Bun, our friend David Bun. Dana Bun, Lisa Hacking. So many amazing people.

Carah Burrell [02:22:43] Laura Schnell.

John Dehlin [02:22:44] Laura Schnell. Yeah. So go to Thrive Time for Women if you have a ticket. If you don't, then the next thing you can do is sign up for Thrive Day November 14th. Adults will have so many. It'll be a full day in the salt palace of amazing content. If you're, if you have a youth 12 to 18 years old, you can sign up for Thrive Day for youth on the Same website@thrivebeyondreligion.com events. We'll put links to all this in the show notes. And there's going to be Thrive days. There's going to be thrive St. George, thrive Southern Canada, Alberta area.

John Dehlin [02:23:18] There are all sorts of Thrive days that are popping up in the kind of January, February, March time frame and all you got to do is go to thrivebeyondreligion.com events, find an event near you, and if you want to organize your own Thrive event in an area near you, we literally will help you organize your own Thrive event where we'll send Carah or send Natasha or send maybe even Margi down to wherever you live and. And help you host your own event and help you find local speakers. That can be amazing. So if you want to host your own Thrive event, go to thrivebeyondreligion.com events, email Clint@thrivebeyondreligionmail.com and Clint will help you organize a Thrive event where you live.

John Dehlin [02:24:01] So that's it. Please support us. Donate to moreinfaithcrisis.com to see this content Continue. Margi, if people want to reach out to you for any of your services or expertise, what should they do?

Margi Dehlin [02:24:15] I have a blog, website. I mean, Beauty in the now. Or you can follow me on Instagram. I'm on Facebook. There you go.

John Dehlin [02:24:26] All right. Yeah. Check out beauty in the now.org for more Margi amazingness. She is a coach. She tends to be full. But if you are looking for some coaching, Margi can sometimes help. And there's lots of other good coaches and therapists as well, so. All right, that's it. Carah, thanks again for joining us. You. You went the extra mile and you came in while you were still recovering from being sick. So thank you for coming in.

Carah Burrell [02:24:53] Yeah, I grew up, you know, watching the Olympics, 1996, and I just drove here thinking, like, this is my Carrie shrug moment. Like, this is me on the vault right now, putting in the effort, winning the gold medal. So I showed up. I did the job. I hope my coughing wasn't too obnoxious. Thanks for everyone for bearing with me. This is a really fun one, though. I'm glad I didn't miss it.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:13] Okay, let me do this.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:17] Why?

John Dehlin [02:25:17] Coming in. It's just a joke.

Carah Burrell [02:25:19] Yeah. Oh, coming in. He doesn't feel like this was Olympic gold medal.

John Dehlin [02:25:24] No, it was. No, that was a sincere slow clap.

Carah Burrell [02:25:27] Oh, great.

John Dehlin [02:25:27] Did I not look sincere?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:29] That feels like an oxymoron. Are there sincere slow clubs? I feel like slow clubs by name.

John Dehlin [02:25:33] Okay, that was a lame attempt at being funny. That was me trying to be funny. I'm always trying to be funny now, Carah. Yeah, it's your fault.

Carah Burrell [02:25:39] Yeah, yeah. He's always trying. Trying is the operative.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:42] Keep at it. Keep at it. Bit by bit.

Carah Burrell [02:25:45] All right, I hope you guys are all really enjoying this, like, fun interpersonal work atmosphere that we have, like the Delins. And then, Carah, this is like Three's Company.

John Dehlin [02:25:53] Kind of like, come and knock on our door. That's Three's Company. That's a reference that few of you will get. But if you're old, if you're 52 or older, you'll know why I just sang come and knock on our door.

Carah Burrell [02:26:05] Or you watch Nick at night growing up.

John Dehlin [02:26:09] All right, everyone, take care. Stay, stay good. Be good to each other. Email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com if you have feedback. Thanks for your support, and we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Part Three Introduction and Recap

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1476c

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 5, 2021 and we are super excited to have back in studio today the Margi Dehlin. Hey, Margi.

Carah Burrell [00:00:15] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] We are continuing our series on telling believing loved ones about a loss of Mormon faith. And we weren't sure how many episodes this part would take but it's clearly an intense and a complicated and an important enough topic that it warrants at least three episodes.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:35] The content goes on and on and on.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] We hope that people are valuing it. We're getting a lot of really positive feedback that people are really enjoying this series. And Margi, really appreciating your feedback. And they're also appreciating my co host, Carah Burrell. Hey, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:00:51] Hey Johnny.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] Hey, Margi.

Carah Burrell [00:00:53] I love these. I mean they're just so helpful. I love it.

John Dehlin [00:00:57] And you're back.

Carah Burrell [00:00:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] You were sick for a bit.

Carah Burrell [00:01:00] Yeah. How's my voice sound? I think I'm like 99% back to normal. Right?

John Dehlin [00:01:05] Yeah, yeah. Thrive for Women was a huge success.

Carah Burrell [00:01:08] Margi will tell you, but it was a riot. It was so much fun, Carah,

Margi Dehlin [00:01:16] all the other women. Yeah, it was a moment to be had for sure.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Well, it's great to have you back here.

Carah Burrell [00:01:21] Yep, thanks. Glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] So really quick too. I'll be very quick. These are really important announcements, but I'm going to make them really quick. The first really important announcement is we have a retreat coming up weekend after next. Carah, is it 13th October 13th, 14th and 15th. So here are the details. If you are struggling with a faith crisis, if you are struggling in your marriage, if you are struggling in a mixed faith marriage, if you are wondering how you can raise kids after a faith crisis, if you are trying to improve your sexuality or your sexual relationship with your spouse or significant other, if you are lonely and are looking for friends or if you're looking for community, any of those things.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] We have what is a really important event. It's October 15th, 16th and 17th. It's me, it's Natasha Helfer and it's Margi will be in Provo or, or Aurum for three. You know, it's, it's Friday night, October 15th, Friday night and then most all days, all day Saturday and almost all day Sunday. And it's just going to be one of these intensive faith crisis retreats. We've done these for many, many years. It's co sponsored by the Open Stories foundation and by the Thrive foundation and frankly by Symmetry Solutions and Natasha, but it's really affordably priced. It's basically the cost of two to three hours of coaching or therapy.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] But what you get is two and a half days of not only coaching and therapy, but direct FaceTime with me, Margi and Natasha and you'll be able to meet people, possibly people who live in your general area, find friends, make community, hear feedback from others. It's a really important event. And so if you are struggling, we really suggest you consider signing up. You can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com events and you can scroll to the Faith Transitions Retreat there and, and you can sign up right there. Also, if you can't afford the registration fee but you really need or want to be able to come, we just need you to email thrivebeyondreligionmail.com Tell us your situation, tell us why you really want or need to be able to attend and tell us your your situation financially and we will do our best to find a host or a donor to subsidize your ability to attend the retreat.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] So that's announcement number one. Just the only other announcement is November 14th in the Salt Palace. We have an amazing Thrive event scheduled. We're not going to really plug that today other than to say RFM will be there. Bill Real will be there. Sarah Edmondson from A Little Bit Culty podcast and the Vow, she'll be there. Former Nexium survivor Lance Allred will be there. Former NBA basketball player Carol will be there. A bunch of tiktokers will be there. It's going to be an amazing event and, and we want to fill it. We've had to put down like 15, $20,000 to the salt palace just to register it.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] We really want to fill the event. Tickets are on sale and they're going fast. Go to thrivebeyondreligion.com events and register now for Thrive. Thrive for women was amazing and we think this event's going to be equally amazing. So those are my plugs. Anything you want to add, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:38] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] All right. Carah, anything you want to add?

Carah Burrell [00:04:41] Nope. I will just make sure that these links are in the show notes. So you have no excuse. You're going to be like, where am I going to the links. I will make sure that I'll make it as easy as possible.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:50] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:04:51] All right, well, we welcome all those who are joining us either through YouTube or Facebook. We really want, we live stream these because we want them to be interactive. So please do share your situation, share your questions, share your comments, and Carol will help us integrate them into this conversation.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] If you have questions or a situation you want Margi or I or Carah to react to in the live stream, we want to do that. And then also we always welcome or appreciate donations made either through YouTube or Facebook or just directly through MormonStories.org the Super Chat feature on YouTube is really convenient, but those donations help us keep this program alive. So thanks to everyone for that. All right, so we have done two parts so far, Margi.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] We basically, in part one, we went through a really detailed discussion of kind of like reasons to not disclose to a loved one or partner and then reasons to disclose. And that took up the full two hours, and I think it was really powerful. So if you haven't listened to part one, we really recommend you check that out. And then part two, we talked a lot about, you know, when to disclose. And, and in both of those episodes, we did a lot of role play. Do I have that right, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:06:12] We connected to the why. Why to disclose.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Oh, right. Values.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:17] Yes. And then also I think we actually got into reasons as well. And I feel like we're doing when today. Okay, we're going to start with when today.

John Dehlin [00:06:29] So. So, yeah, what's left? We've talked a lot about intention, about values, and about, you know, why you would and wouldn't disclose, but there's just a lot of kind of granular details about disclosing to believing family. And the first thing we wanted to cover today was kind of the when. And basically we wanted to talk a little bit about safety and, and disclosing in a way where you're going to maximize the chance of. Of that, of that disclosure being effective. So I guess the first thing to think about is kind of set and setting when you're going to disclose. And there's probably more and less stressful or optimum times to disclose. So, Margi, why don't, why don't you start with that? Just give a little bit of background and then jump in.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:20] Yeah. And can I share just a really quick side thought? I feel like we've shared it before, but I just, I think the nature of what we're doing here in these three episodes, it's just a great reminder that these are strategies, what we're giving you. And this is a messy process. And so, you know, not to get too aspirational. I think here we have to be very gentle with ourselves and, and realize that we can do many, many of these things, many, many sort of right things and still have outcomes that are uncomfortable because it is messy. So I just wanted to kind of put that out there just for kind of a healthy, you know, kind of a healthy perspective going into it. What we can control, what we can't control.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] Yeah, yeah. It's, it's. Well, I guess it's. It's fair to say that every situation is going to be different and there's no one right way to do anything. And part of what we're trying to do on the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis series is nurturing people their own ability to figure out what's right for them.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:33] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] So we don't want to be the gurus saying this is the way to do anything, but we do want to share tips and tricks that we.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:39] Strategies. And we would love to optimize you feeling maybe less regret later.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:47] If we could say that for yourself as opposed to. Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] Yeah. And I think you also make a really good point, and we've tried to emphasize this when we've talked about acceptance.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] And, you know, we did talk about the Nephi complex in that first episode. It's going to be messy. There's no way to do this perfectly so that you avoid your parents getting upset or your siblings getting upset or some sort of collateral damage and kind of accepting that messiness up front is probably really important.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:15] Exactly. Yeah. Okay. But to begin on the when, one of the first points would be, you know, at a time when you're not feeling a particularly stressful. It's like it's a particularly stressful time for you or for the person that you're hoping to share with. So just taking a quick, you know, assessment of what your life situation is like, and there's going to be inevitable stress if you're probably going through a type of faith transition. So. But we're looking for just to connect with yourself as to, like, if you're feeling quite reactive or quite, you know, pumped up or if you're. If you can kind of get to a place of.

Timing Your Disclosure and Reading the Relationship

Margi Dehlin [00:10:01] Of calm and then let's say you're talking to a parent, then you would kind of want to look in their life as well to see, you know, that they're not, you know, suffering from a major illness. They haven't just moved and are feeling overwhelmed. We kind of want everyone as calm as possible.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I've. I've seen people, like, choose to disclose, you know, during an anniversary or, you know, during a family event, like a Thanksgiving or a reunion or Christmas, when there's going to be a lot of moving parts A lot of stress. And this, this, this is kind of stressful enough. It's difficult enough to, to try and do it when this is the only major source of emotional distress or load.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:55] Exactly. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] I love it. Okay, so. So the next, the next thing I wanted to talk about is, is kind of another factor in when to disclose or not is, is, you know, figuring out is kind of where you are in your cycle. And so there's kind of early on in the cycle where you're still wondering if the church is true or not. You're still, you know, maybe you still want to stay in the church and maybe you just want to be a progressive believer and, and, or you're really still not sure if you want to even stop attending.

John Dehlin [00:11:37] And my feeling is that, you know, you can think a little bit about where you are in the process, and if you're really early, if you feel you're still just trying to get your feet on the ground, kind of get your bearings, it can make sense to wait for a while until you're really sure it doesn't have to be that way. But, like, there's a really big difference between kind of being early in the process where you're still trying to figure things out, and being much later in the process where you're like, nope, I'm sure about this. I know that my testimony will probably never be the same again.

John Dehlin [00:12:10] I know that I've stopped going to church and I probably won't be able to go back ever. And that, you know, sometimes having a bit more. Being a bit more towards the certainty side versus the uncertainty side can be a better time to disclose. Because again, if you're, if you're just kind of wobbling, but you're going to be right back as a progressive Mormon, staying in the church and attending, you know, there may not even be a need for any type of major disclosure. What do you think about that?

Margi Dehlin [00:12:41] Yeah, I really like that. And I think even emotionally, that can work, because I think, you know, if you, if you're in this still emotionally wounded place, which is a natural place to be, where you're, you know, the dust is still kind of settling, but you are feeling like you are still actively bleeding. That can oftentimes, I think when we're looking at having conversations with loved ones, that comes across and so, and it can interfere with a sense of the clarity we kind of want and the groundedness that we would hope that you could feel during this kind of time of upheaval. So, yeah, I feel like there's the cognitive side of kind of having sorted through things.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:29] And also hopefully you have had that emotional support, time to vent, time to explore grief and feelings of betrayal. And very natural, that natural kind of wave of emotions that we all have to work through. And either we can catch it in a down wave, right. A down kind of part of it, or we wait until sort of that ocean of emotion is kind of semi. Semi settled.

John Dehlin [00:14:00] Yeah, makes sense. Okay. A third is, you know, just the environment itself and how much stimuli is around. You want to talk about that, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:14:11] Yeah, so that, that's another thing that I think can come up for people is just kind of the fact that we, what we don't want is extra stimulation in the environment. We kind of want the conversation to have the focus so you can think about where you want to have it with regard to where it's calm also maybe where you feel safe. So maybe it's at your home where you feel kind of a sense of safety and you know, you might want to think about timing what time of day not only works for you, but also works for them so that you don't feel rushed or you know, stressed in any way that there's some time constraint where it has to be completed by oftentimes too like public places can be tricky.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:03] So like restaurants or when you're talking about these things are a little less conducive than say a park or a place in your home or so just some ideas is kind of take in or consider the idea of environment.

John Dehlin [00:15:24] I love it. Yeah, you, you definitely don't want like tons of people, tons of interruptions, tons of people running around, maybe even kids running around. And you kind of want some privacy and some confidentiality. So, so that everyone could just feel comfortable and kind of channel and be kind of in the zone. And that's not always possible, but it feels like that's optimum.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:48] It's a nice strategy. At least something to.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] Yeah. Carah, I'm just curious as you're kind of thinking about your experiences and even the comments that people are making, what's coming through your mind?

Carah Burrell [00:16:04] That I like how Marky just said like what would be optimal and it you, if you don't feel like you had it, like I, I'm thinking back to the lot of the conversations I've had with my family and maybe it didn't go well because it felt like, oh, something is just coming to a boiling head and I should probably talk about it now, cuz if I don't, I'm going to explode. That's probably a time to ground yourself and realize that this is probably not the right time and space. And if you're wondering why that conversation didn't go well, it's probably because of like X, Y and Z, you know, and that, like, you can show up better next time and in the future and stuff.

Carah Burrell [00:16:37] So, like, I just, I'm thinking about all of the ways that I could have done things a little bit better and hopefully the listeners will just slow down and like, it's. It's a very important conversation and you're not always going to do it right. But these are just some like, mental checklists to think about if you want to set yourself up for success.

John Dehlin [00:16:56] I love that idea, Carah. That it's just, there's no rush, there's no hurry. People sometimes feel like, oh no, my beliefs are changing. I've got to tell the world immediately. And how about you don't have to tell the world and you don't have to tell anyone immediately.

Carah Burrell [00:17:11] I literally, the day after my shelf broke, I went on Marco Polo to like five of my closest Mormon friends. And I didn't want to tell them what happened. I didn't want to tell him what I read. But I did want. I was like, I know you guys have been worrying about my family and like, what my husband and our mixed faith marriage is going to look like. Just so you know, I'm leaving the church. Just so you know. I just felt like I had to get it out there as soon as possible. And I don't know what, you can psychoanalyze me. I don't know why I felt like I needed to tell all of my friends immediately, but I did. And I don't really know the point of it now, but I'm so glad

Margi Dehlin [00:17:43] we're talking about this because I do think for some people, for a large amount of people actually, and I really feel for this, is that you're feeling distressed oftentimes is what you're feeling. You're feeling this sense of overwhelm, of feelings that are really uncomfortable. And so I think oftentimes unexamined, what you want to do is get it out.

Carah Burrell [00:18:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:08] And so it's a really natural, actual. Actually it's a natural inclination for us to have to sort of want to just, just get it out of you. And so. And the issue with that only is that oftentimes when we do that, it creates more tumult and pain for ourselves. And that's why I actually have a lot of compassion for why people do that. Because it's a lot to hold, honestly. And we also come from a culture where we have been, like, it's a bad thing to hold things back. Like we're supposed to. We were put in these places where we have to prove and share all of our thoughts and feelings, and we're really accountable for that. So there's just a lot to, you know, be gentle about with all that.

Carah Burrell [00:18:56] Yeah. Yeah. Very well said.

John Dehlin [00:18:59] I love it. All right, so there's the next part of the when is also very much tied to the who. So first section was when. Second sections, who. But there's kind of some crossover because there is a. There is, I think, at least one instance where timing really, really. I've seen timing really matter. And that's when you are in a marriage or, you know, you have a significant other, and if you are the, you know, losing your faith, partner or spouse, and you have a believing spouse or partner and your marriage, you know, or relationship was very much rooted in or based in or tied to sort of a faithful Mormon contract, temple marriage, that sort of thing. One thing that I've seen cause a lot of problems is waiting too long to tell your significant other. And I'm seeing both of you guys nod your heads here.

Carah Burrell [00:20:07] We talked about that a little bit last time, right?

John Dehlin [00:20:09] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:20:10] That you were saying, like, that actually happens sometimes. And I was just discussing about, like, with my husband. I didn't realize how, like, how out he was until it was, like, way too late. And then I had, like, my own existential crisis. Just, it's. It's a heap that goes on. It's like lots of faith and you haven't told me so.

John Dehlin [00:20:25] Exactly. Yeah, yeah, we. We have covered this before, and I think it just bears mentioning again that one of the saddest things I've seen because your. Your believing partner is going to, you know, first of all, they're the most. Hopefully they're the most important thing in your life.

John Dehlin [00:20:42] In my optimal world. I love my parents. Margi's more important to me than my parents in terms of, like, my. The majority of my life, Margi's more important to me. I love my kids. My kids are super important to me. But, like, my relationship with Margi is the most important relationship in my life. That's just a fact. And so because that's so foundational and because when we got married there was an agreement about faith, then changing that agreement is inevitably going to feel like a potentially a significant betrayal just in and of itself.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] So that is something you're likely going to have to deal with is kind of the changes in the terms of the relationship. If you add to that the complexity of your spouse feeling betrayed. Spouse or partner feeling betrayed that you waited way too long to tell them.

John Dehlin [00:21:36] And or, and again I mentioned this last time. Let's just say you're on business trips and you start secretly drinking or you start secretly, you know, trying, you know, experimental drugs or you secretly stop wearing your garments or you secretly stop paying your tithing or any of the things that were kind of foundational to your contractual agreement as a spouse or a partner, then you're going to have to process the double betrayal. The betrayal of them feeling like you change the deal and them feeling like you've been lying and hiding things from them. So in terms of, of the when I suggest sooner than later with your significant others, but sooner rather than later with your significant partner spouse and I recommend not changing any of your behaviors that are considered taboo or risky without an explicit renegotiation of your contract with your partner or your significant other. Margi, did you have something you wanted to add to that?

Margi Dehlin [00:22:40] And then Carah only that I really love that I really love the idea of because I think so it's so common when you know, all of a sudden we have a mixed faith situation that the believing I don't really love the believing non believing but we just will use that because it's easy terminology. But the for the belie spouse that they can feel very out of control and I love the coming together because it, it's this reminder of and a solidifier that we can, we have our own values that we can come together and it gives that believing spouse at least a voice as opposed to kind of feeling like you're just a done deal and now you're off and doing your thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:28] And that I think, I think we've gone into that it creates this dynamic of digging in their heels and feeling like they really have to protect their turf. So it's just a beautiful. Love it all the way around.

John Dehlin [00:23:40] Yeah yeah, yeah. If and care. Did you want to add anything to that?

Carah Burrell [00:23:45] The thing that's just on my mind is I edited a TikTok of Leah and Cody Young's interview when you suggested to them that you need to have like a new marriage negotiation contract. And Leah wrote this really beautiful document about what she hopes to base their marriage on now in the future that they don't have the foundation of the church. That that is not going to be what's moving forward in their future for Them. It's something that's in the past. It's crumbled. So what are we going to share our values on? What are we going to teach our kids? So I was trying to look for the, the tick tock and maybe I could put it in the show notes in a minute.

Carah Burrell [00:24:16] But I just really think that's a beautiful idea that, you know, me, 19 year old Carah jumping into a marriage and you kind of feel like, oh, it'll be fine because if we just follow the gospel's rules, we'll be fine. And then when that, when you don't have that structure anymore for your marriage, it does feel like, oh crap, we have some real sorting to do about our values. And so I'm have to find that video of Leah Young's. But I don't know if you wanted to explain any more of that concept. Maybe not, but I just thought that was a really beautiful idea for married couples to do.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:47] Yeah, that's a great idea.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] Yeah. Yeah. We should have another, we should have our own episode on, on the, the idea of second and third marriages. But it's just this idea that.

Carah Burrell [00:24:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] From Esther Perel, I think we first heard about it. Everyone's going to have at least three marriages. Not everyone, but most people are going to have at least three marriages. And it'll either be to the same person or to different people.

John Dehlin [00:25:11] And what that means is if you're, if you end up having one marriage for your whole life, it'll probably go through at least three or four or five different major phases. And each phase can require its own contract negotiation where all the understandings and the agreements fall to the floor and you pick back up the ones that you know because you're both going to change over time and the relationship's going to change as well. And so there'll be, you know, every, let's just say seven or 10 or 15 or 20 years, there'll be this renegotiation where you kind of things aren't working. It feels like everything's falling apart.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] And you'll want to work with the therapist or coach or just with, you know, with each other. You'll, you'll need to let everything fall to the ground and then figure out who are you now, who's your partner now, and then what are the new pillars or foundations of your relationship? And that's, we can, we can add Esther Perel's book there and we can just add also the Leah and Cody Young, you, you know, Mormon stories.

Carah Burrell [00:26:12] Yeah, I can like cue it up to the, to that part of the interview even and put that in the, in the show.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] That's great.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:19] Yeah, I can, I connect with that for a minute because I actually, for me, I feel like it's more than three. Like way more than three. If you, if you look at things like, you know, early marriage and what it, you know, what the purpose of kind of early early married life is with two people, well, that's quite a bit different than when you have a baby or young children. There's a serious negotiation and shift that goes on there that if you're not looking at intentional about. Right. The old, the old things that used to work are not going to work for that. And furthermore, teens all of a sudden, like being the parents of teens and having a marriage during a time of teenagers is fundamentally different.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:06] Empty nest. Oftentimes the, the very values or the attributes in a human being that make, you know, such a great partnership when you're having kids and a spouse that, or spouses that are, you know, wonderful wage earners or out sometimes like by the time emptiness nest hits, they're not great companions. They're not the people actually that you're like, let's go travel. Like fundamentally different aspects of, I think partnership come out at different times of life, let alone illness. If all of a sudden now you're a caretaker of a partner. I just think there are so many marriages within a single marriage. That's all. Yeah, so many changes.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] That's great stuff. Okay, so that kind of wraps up the when of, you know, when to think about disclosing. Let's go ahead now and move on to the whole who you should and shouldn't feel the need to, to disclose to. And Margi, I think this is where we want you to introduce a concept that has received a lot of very positive feedback in the retreats, in the workshops that we do and the coaching. And I think we, we developed, we kind of co developed this concept with Natasha Helfer. So I want to make sure and give Natasha credit for this. This is something that's come out of our retreats, the one that we're having in a couple of weeks that we want people to consider attending if they like it. But will you introduce, Margi, the concept of level of relationship and level of emotional intimacy that matches level of relationship.

Safety and Intimacy Levels in Close Relationships

Margi Dehlin [00:28:51] Yeah. So it's a very simplified version of how to kind of look at safety within a really safety and intimacy within a relationship. And I'll tell you what, you know, how you can use this, but let's Just go through. There are five basic levels, so it goes one through five. And if you kind of think of one as kind of the most, let's just say shallow, we're going to talk about the weather, we're going to talk about what we're eating, what we've been up to, maybe a book we're reading, that's kind of level one. And then you kind of level five would be, as Brene Brown kind of talks about kind of the short list.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:36] It's like the people you can. You don't necessarily need to filter a great deal for. You can show your full self and you feel accepted, cherished and loved. Kind of in those spaces of vulnerability, you can talk about a wide variety of topics on, you know, so that's kind of level five. So if we were going to kind of fill out that level two would be maybe you add a little bit of depth in there with talking about your children or, you know, kind of some, some basic worries there. You add, you know, so there's some depth. There are some topics where you can maybe go a little bit deeper.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:13] Right. Level three is kind of mixed. It's sort of like, you know, I have maybe, maybe a few subjects I can go deep with you and I kind of know what those are, but I also have areas that I know I can't actually trust you with. So there's a lot of navigating with like a level three, but it's a kind of a balanced relationship. Four is where you're not filtering a great deal, but maybe you can't talk about church stuff or, you know, marriage

John Dehlin [00:30:42] just to kind of sexual stuff or

Margi Dehlin [00:30:44] more sexual stuff or so to kind of fill that out and why this can be helpful or in what situations this can be helpful. Is that when we're talking about. I know I brought this up before, but when we're talking about families, many times, like when we're talking about mothers or dads or a sister or people assume if it's family, it's level five,

John Dehlin [00:31:07] but that they should be spoken to as if they're level five.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:10] That's right. Or that all family relationships are level five.

John Dehlin [00:31:14] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:15] And it's simply not the case. So pausing and actually taking a look at what, what that relationship is like for you and, and where you feel safe and where you don't feel safe and what your experiences have been when you've been vulnerable in certain areas and really pausing to reflect on those relationships is so empowering to you. And it also serves as a filter for you to be able to know on what level you want to sacrifice, on what level you want to kind of, what would I say, like, expose yourself to that person.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:54] It's just great for kind of. It's like a filter, it's like a clarifier for you. And before you kind of jump to that, level five is the ultimate. That what we want are all kind of. This is also really helpful when, when we went into coaching as a family with our coach, Liz Dalton, one of the things that she pointed out in our family culture was that we existed too often on level four and five in our family occasions, meaning we always were having these kind of heavier, deeper, intimate conversations. And it is healthy in relationship with people to balance out. So let's look at one relationship, my relationship with John.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:42] I want times of level five. I want to be able to be able to be able to be vulnerable with John and to feel safe. I want level threes when we're out to dinner where maybe I can share some things, but we're also talking about things and we want to be level one where we're game playing and we're playing and we're laughing. So the ideal is that we can all move between these levels. Right. In any given relationship and we're not kind of sticking. So level one is not necessarily like not a great relationship. Sometimes fun relationships have their place, you know, and fun is definitely important in the scope of a single relationship.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:24] But for the purpose of this discussion, it is to help, you know, on what level to disclose. If you have a level three relationship, we're going to have you match disclosing to that level of relationship and not go in with a level five when it's actually a level two relationship. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:33:42] Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:43] Overload something.

Carah Burrell [00:33:45] Yeah, I, I hope that especially if you're young, like, really learn. Listen to what Margi just said. Cause I seriously, if I had a time machine and if I could go back and tell myself one thing when I was like a teenager, it would be that, like, some people are not level five. Some people, you're having fun and you're conflating, you know, sharing things about yourself and you're assuming that there's a level of emotional intimacy that's actually not reciprocated, that you think is going to be there and you're setting yourself up to be really disappointed and like really early on understanding if people are going to be showing up in the same way that you want them to be.

Carah Burrell [00:34:18] And if that's just. That's not the person that you're vibing with, it's probably not going to be a good idea to vote, like, invest emotionally in sharing things about yourself. It's just not going to get there. And then the second thing I wanted to add is, like, I want to ask this question to both of you because I'm just thinking in my mind is like, I'm the type of person who. I'm confident enough that if that does happen now, now that I'm 32 years old and I can tell my mom over the weekend, she made some assumptions about why I don't go to church and why I don't believe in the Bible anymore.

Carah Burrell [00:34:49] And she had some assumptions, and so I corrected her. And that takes a level of vulnerability, that takes like a level 4 vulnerability to be like, I'm going to share with you, actually, my reasons. So I wanted to ask for somebody like me who I can show up and I can say exactly what's on my heart, knowing full well it's going to go over her head. It's going to be. She's not going to process it. She's just going to go back, reiterate her own opinions about me in her head. I. All I can say is I did, is I showed up and I articulated myself well.

Carah Burrell [00:35:18] But for people who are in a space where, like, I need my mom to get me, and then they're just going to be disappointed. Do you know what I mean? There's just. There's different types of people where it's like, okay, somebody has been back, backstabbed me 500 times. I can still talk to them, but, like, I don't want to show up in a way that I'm gonna set myself up for failure. So, like, you have to show up in the conversation knowing, like, how if this person doesn't do what you think, or, yeah, just. You know what I mean? Mormon moms, like, you still need a relationship with them. I'm still going to be a level four with them. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:35:50] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:35:50] Did that question make any sense?

John Dehlin [00:35:51] Yeah, maybe. Yeah. And maybe you'll be level four with your mom, or maybe you'll be a one, two, or three. Like, the way I like to think about it is that emotional intimacy is really about kind of like taking your heart out of your chest where it's protected, and showing your full, most authentic, vulnerable self to somebody of your choosing. That's what emotional intimacy is, by being raw and being vulnerable. And this comes a lot from the work of Brene Brown. By being raw and being vulnerable, you simultaneously have the potential to develop more deep and meaningful relationships with people. And you have the potential to really get hurt because obviously, you know, the people that you hate are almost always the people that you once loved.

John Dehlin [00:36:42] You really don't hate anyone that you never really, at some point, didn't love unless they just really hurt you or your family in some significant way. But generally speaking, we only hate people that really betrayed us that we once loved because they hurt us so bad. And so sometimes a parent can, can be a relatively safe person to really confide in, and sometimes they're just not. And sometimes you really do have to just say, when it's mom or dad, we're talking sports, we're talking weather. Maybe I'll tell them certain things about my kids, but even then, maybe sometimes they'll judge me or give me advice that is not really welcome.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] And sometimes you actually really do have to boundary a parent to a one or a two level. And so I, I, I'm not disagreeing with you, Carah, but I am just saying that from my experience, not all parents are always worthy of a four. Does that make sense?

Carah Burrell [00:37:34] Yeah, yeah, that's exactly kind of the, the you have to be so intentional with these people. So we talked about earlier how, like, don't automatically assume that just because they're your parents or a close family member that they're a four or a five. But I'm at a. I'm comfortable enough to share whatever the opinion is on my mind, whatever my mom wants to know about me, my life, what I do for living, my beliefs, I' to share. But I don't get my feelings hurt if it completely goes over her head. If she completely forgets the conversation that we have. It's just like, that's my mom, you know, And I just, that's the expectation I set.

Carah Burrell [00:38:04] But I still feel good when I, I'm able to express myself because if I, if I always saw my mom and every thought that occurred to me was like, oh, I want to tell my mom this, but I can't because she's like a level one. I was like, I don't know if I could live like that. You know, it's like, but you have to take a special type of person, though. Like, I don't get my feelings hurt, you know? So, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:24] And I think the key that I see that you're doing is that you're connecting to yourself about that, which I think is the most important part. Because here's what's tricky. People sometimes do surprise you. And sometimes your experience with someone could be a level two. But amidst this process, you might be curious and decide to disclose something intentionally to see where they are in the present moment with you and then you collect the data on that and maybe they'll surprise you. And I don't, I do think there are situations where that can be healthy, where it can be like, okay, I think I'm in a grounded enough place.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:05] Things have been maybe problematic in the past, but I'm going to go in and I'm going to be a little bit more vulnerable than maybe what this relationship is. And I'm going to see, I'm, I'm gonna see what comes and I like that because on some level when you, when it, you can do that and take care of yourself, then what you can kind of say is I provided you the opportunity though.

Carah Burrell [00:39:29] Yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:30] I, I, I didn't negate you the opportunity of growth. I gave you that, that choice and that, you know, possibility. Now maybe they're not going to take it. Maybe they're gonna, and by the way, it's not just people being, you know, mean or you know, sometimes it's just narcissism, it's just that you share something personal and you have a parent that

John Dehlin [00:39:55] just can't see you or emotional immaturity.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:57] That's right. Or so it's not always overt. And for some people that, especially if they've grown up with that, that they don't feel seen that not having negativity is not the most wounding thing. Sometimes the most wounding thing is that they don't feel seen that they, and so this really is, I feel like you do have to connect with yourself and I, I think honor where you are and honestly unabashedly advocate for your well being, for your health and your mental well being.

Carah Burrell [00:40:31] Right on. I love that.

John Dehlin [00:40:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you, Carah. And thank you, Margi. Couple of quick things I, One of the most difficult things I see people experience in my coaching and in these retreats and workshops is mourning and grieving the downgrade of a relationship. So they think that their parents are fives, but then they're continually getting hurt by their parents for what they say or what they do and what they realize is there are my parents need to be a 2 or 3 because it's not safe for us to talk about our kids right now or it's not safe for me to talk about my spouse or it's not safe for us to talk about religion.

Downgrading Relationships That Are No Longer Safe

John Dehlin [00:41:17] And every time we do, I end up being injured. And so what that means is they have to say, all right, there are these X, Y and Z. I'm not going to talk to my parents about. And if they try and talk to me about it, I'm going to have to boundary them. And what that means is their relationships. Where it used to be you could tell them everything, now you can't. And that actually is like a death. Sometimes the downgrading of a relationship translates into something that feels like a death that you have to grieve because you think, you thought, and we talked about this in episode one when we talked about the Nephi complex.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] You think that you're unconditionally loved and sometimes you are, sometimes you're believing family members will surprise you, but sometimes you're not, sometimes you're not unconditionally loved. Sometimes that familiarity was conditional. That level five relationship was conditional on both of you being, being faithful to the church. And as soon as one of you is no longer faithful, they're no longer safe for you. And maybe you're no longer safe from them. And so you, sometimes you have to boundary each other. But the point is a lot of people get really disappointed. Like, I can't tell my dad. I used to be able to tell my dad everything and now I can't.

John Dehlin [00:42:25] I used to be able to tell my mom, I used to be able to tell my sister everything and now I can't. You are going to have to grieve that you're going to miss it, you're going to be sad about it, it's going to feel like a death. It may take you months or years, but it's better to drown, downgrade somebody than to have them wreck your mental health and well being and your energy and your life. And so ultimately, and it also preserves the relationship. Renee Brown was really good about teaching us the boundaries of are not only to preserve your health and wellbeing, they're actually useful to, to protect the relationship you're in.

John Dehlin [00:43:01] Because if your parents are constantly violating your boundaries and hurting you, you're going to end up wanting to cut that relationship off. Whereas if you're able to boundary them effectively and downgrade the relationship, you'll be able to start communicating in a way to where you're not constantly injuring each other. And that will preserve the relationship, but you will have to grieve it. You will be sad about it and it will put a hole, it will feel like a hole in your soul. And the only thing I can say about that is the gift of The Mormon faith crisis is that you can, you can replace that hole that your mom or your dad or your sister used to fill.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] You can fill that hole with a better relationship with your spouse, with a better relationship with a friend who you're more connected with, with new adopted parents that you meet at a retreat or a thrive or at a workshop, or just in your local community. You can find loving people who do love you unconditionally that can fill in those holes. And it'll feel like a loss at first. It doesn't have to be a long term loss. Does that make sense, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:44:12] Yeah. And I just wanted to add, I just want to validate because when you. I'm still so close to my faith crisis that I just want to validate anyone else who's listening that, like that, dang it, I have to downgrade this relationship because of this blah, blah, blah. Just like this dumb thing that this religion. That's not true. And you just, you kind of rage against the church and you kind of have to go through an angry stage because you're so frustrated that these relationships will never be the same again. So I just want to validate that there's like that angry space. We talked about this in Leah Young's episode as well.

Carah Burrell [00:44:40] Just how frustrating it is that we have to learn so many of these things for something that, in my opinion, isn't true and isn't founded in reality. And that hurts a lot of people. And it just is really frustrating. Like when your parents still hold on to it more than they're even their love for you and that becomes conditional. There's a frustration there. I just want to validate that it's hard. It's super hard to go through super hard.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:59] It is. I just feel like the wounding is real, that loss is real. And I think you can actively grieve someone who is alive in your life. You can grieve the relationship that you know will never be. And that is something that I feel like takes a lot of work, it takes a lot of practice. And we mention things like, you know, you're gonna have to grieve and you're gonna have to feel the loss. And I just think that deserves its own episode. I don't know that we actively know how to do that in our culture, that we see practices of what it means to grieve and what it means to feel the loss and process loss in that way.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:43] So that could be a potential episode, but giving yourself time and space for that. I love everything that you guys have said around this. And I would just add, you know, I feel like I've said it before, but sometimes we don't get to heal in the relationships where we're wounded.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:05] We don't have control over that. And I think it's natural, particularly as children to want to heal our relationship with our parents, to take that on and to single handedly want to make that happen. And I would just say to that that that's some of the hardest work there is, is to kind of know when to give up on the CPR for you and to channel that energy perhaps into other relationships that help you strangely heal the relationship with your parents. And one example of this is with your own children. And so sometimes I feel like I have healed aspects of some of the more hurtful parts of my relationship with parents, with my children in saying, here are things that have hurt me, here are things, here are ways that I, I can, you know, connect to needs that were unmet.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:10] And I turn around and I look at my children and I'm just all over those things. And I'm probably missing other areas. I'm sure I'm, you know, messing up in other areas because that's, that's parenting for you. But we can heal parts of ourselves through not only reparenting ourselves, but also in how we show up for our children and at least saying it's gonna stop here and my children won't know the same pain.

Carah Burrell [00:47:38] That's so powerful. And the only thing I wanted to add is how you just said that you will reparent yourself. And I just love the idea that even though you're downgrading some of these relationships and that's painful, that you get to say goodbye, you get to let go of the person that needed to be that people pleaser, that needed that validation from your parents or whoever, that you get to also grow out of that person that needed that for survival. As a teenager, I had to go to church, I had to, I had to bear my testimony in sacrament meeting every month to show my mom, don't be worried, I have a testimony to be all the things that she wants

John Dehlin [00:48:15] me to be or to be proud

Carah Burrell [00:48:16] of you, to be proud of me. Because this is her love language is showing up in this way and conforming to her ideas about what makes a good person. Not only do I get to downgrade that relationship that hurts, but I get to grow out of it, to be my own person.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:28] Now that's great. You get to be free of it. Yeah, you get to be free of that.

Carah Burrell [00:48:33] Just the expectations that for me were put on me from five days old when I had a baby blessing. Like, it's not to me, it's just, it's not fair to fit within this box, to conform within a religion that might work for my parents, but that caused way too much mental anguish for me to try to fit within. So it's time to grow out of it.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:52] Yeah, that is. It reminds me of the first time I read shefali Savery where she said something like parental approval is a major form of manipulation. And I was like, it really made me stop and think about, you know, whether you agree with that statement unilaterally or not. What I loved was it stopped me in my tracks as to how I wanted to use approval or not with my children as opposed to letting them connect with their own experience without me as a part of that.

John Dehlin [00:49:29] Yeah, I love it. Okay, really quickly I want to do a quick shout out and care you can show this comment. Our dear friend Mindy Caldwell is in the chats today. Mindy just did two episodes with me on the Chad Dabel Lori Valo episode and she's the the wife of Steve Caldwell who she's married to Steve Caldwell who did did the COVID Vaccine episode and they're related to the Shannon Caldwell Montez. So and I've been joking and yeah,

Margi Dehlin [00:49:59] she's part of our chosen family.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:01] So Mindy Caldwell.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] So I'll just read Mindy's comment. Mindy wrote, I'm so glad that you mentioned this. Different marriages even with the same person. Steve and I have definitely had a few different marriages in our 25 years together. And then Mindy goes on to write, these episodes are incredibly valuable. Thank you friends.

John Dehlin [00:50:18] Thank you Mindy for that feedback. And I also just want to echo what you just said, Margi, which is that Mindy and Steve along with several other couples have come to be like family for us. So there's this idea of family of blood and then there's kind of family of choice. And by moving to Salt Lake we've been fortunate enough to find, you know, several couples that they don't. You know, I still love my parents and I still have a relationship with them. I still love my siblings to have relationships with them. The relationships have changed a little bit, but now we have new families and couples that we've gotten to know, including the Caldwell's that have become like family to us.

John Dehlin [00:50:57] And that has not only filled the void that we once that that was created when we had to down shift some relationships, it's almost put that sort of that hole to overflowing because our life feels so much richer now to have these friends that we can tell almost pretty we could tell everything to and they can tell everything to us. And it's frankly a deeper level of intimacy than often we have with our own parents.

John Dehlin [00:51:27] And so that's really powerful. And then I just have to say, Margi, I just loved that what you and Carah both talked about, reparenting yourself, if I had to summarize what I heard you say, is that another gift of the faith crisis is that some of the damage or injury that you experience from your parents of origin, the, the gift of having experienced that and even of having to down level some of those relationships is you get to change how you parent your own kids. And the, the multi generational pattern can end with you. And what you lose in downgrading a parental relationship, you can gain in upgrading the type of parent you end up being to your own kids and hopefully they won't pass that on to future generations and you get to reparent yourself in the process.

John Dehlin [00:52:21] And, and Carah, to your point, to me it. A faith crisis isn't just processing the loss of religion. To me a faith crisis also represents maturation because living in that first half of life that Richard Rohr talks about of like being dependent on your parents approval and like hustling for that love and hustling to requiring your own sense of feeling whole and good to be dependent on your parents or even your spouse, frankly.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] What if you could upgrade that so that your core sense of health and well being is just tied to your own values? And you knowing what you are, knowing who you are, knowing what you care about and you feeling great about yourself just because of who you are and you're living authentic and true to yourself. And if your parents or your siblings or your community or even your spouse can't really fully love and embrace you, you're. You're walking still with your head held high. That doesn't. None of us are an island. We all need eventually, I think to have partners and, or you know, loved ones who love us unconditionally and care about us.

John Dehlin [00:53:35] So I'm not saying you graduate to never needing any friends or community or unconditionally loving relationships. But what if your core source of strength and comfort and validation is yourself and not your parents and not even necessarily your partner? Does that sound scary?

Carah Burrell [00:53:57] Yeah. And it just reminds me of like. I don't want to get off topic too much, but I think in Mormonism we are so afraid of. What I would dream is like moral relativism or like your parents are going to see you making up your own rules and stuff. And so you're so afraid to trust yourself. And there's this awkward space between. You decide what your moral, your values are and what's right and what's actually right and wrong. What actually makes me a good person, what actually makes people want to be my friend or not be my friend, what makes me a good person, a good citizen, all of those things is you have to reshuffle all of that stuff now.

Carah Burrell [00:54:31] And there's this confusing period I think everybody has to go through. And a lot of people have not figured out some of those things. Just because you left the church doesn't mean you're a good person, obviously. So, like, you still have a resorting to do and you're afraid that your family's watching you and you're never okay. Just like being in your own skin, being yourself. So I like what we're describing here is like, once you get to that spot that you feel okay in your own skin and your own values without a religious structure around it, that gift of like, oh, I have an inner, like, I know that my parents are going to call this morals relativism.

Carah Burrell [00:55:04] They're going to think that this is evil. But like, deep down, what do I think about it? And you get to ask yourself that and you get to really ponder on it. And you're like, no matter what stones that they hurl at me, I literally am like, nope. I still, I feel, I still know that I'm doing the right job. And to be honest, a lot of things in religion are very surface level. And that's one of my least favorite things about religion. I have some things I like, but my mom judges the most surface level things down to, like, if my parent or my kid's hair is combed.

Carah Burrell [00:55:32] She. She thinks that I'm like a neglectful parent. I'm like base level things just. It's like, okay, well, that's. I know deep down that I am a good mom. And I know that deep down I am a good person and that I'm okay and that I'm making my way in the world. And I'm sorry you don't feel the same way, but that's. You just. You separate yourself, you mature and you're like, no matter what stones you hurl at me, I'm like, I know I'm okay.

John Dehlin [00:55:54] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:55:55] And I don't want to talk too much, but the place that I learned that, to be honest, was on TikTok, because you kind of live for the algorithm and live for views and stuff. And put up something that I know is good. Put up something where I'm just going to talk into the camera and know that this opinion is. I'm so glad I was able to articulate myself on this. I've never been able to say this to anyone. I'm going to put it up there. It gets almost next to no 3,000 views. But I'm. But you're okay with it? You're like, whether somebody likes it or not, I'm happy that I did it. And, like, that literally retrained my brain to not look for approval. And then in that I got started getting people's approval, but then I'm already okay without it. That makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:56:31] Yeah. That's great.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:32] So anyway, that still reminds me of Brene Brown when she talks about braving the wilderness. That's what the wilderness is. The wilderness is like that space where you don't. You don't have people and you're forced to look to yourself to kind of. And her whole. I love that book. It says, like, a lot of different things, but one of the major concepts is if you can't, in a. In a moment, advocate for yourself, connect with yourself, you will never belong because you don't belong to yourself. So how do you expect to, like, navigate spaces with other people if you don't? On some level, you have to brave the wilderness first.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:11] You have to, on some level, do what you're describing, where you feel alone, where you feel like you're separating, where you feel like. And that you understand, sort of. I'm not willing to take a hit to fit in or to get more likes or to have my mom think the world of my parenting today, or. Or that on some level, you stand in the wilderness and you stand alone, but you're not alone because you're actually connected to yourself. And ironically, that's where we have the greatest possibility of ever belonging.

John Dehlin [00:57:43] Love it.

Carah Burrell [00:57:43] You're not alone because you're standing with yourself.

John Dehlin [00:57:47] Yes. And there's actually a Facebook comment that we can highlight to. Debbie Hole writes on Facebook, to quote, frozen, to quote, you are the one you've been waiting for. Close quote. And then Debbie writes, sometimes Disney just nails it. Be your own authority. And I really do think that is probably the pillar of our. Let's just say the gift. That. That's the key theme of the gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis series is moving from the prophet as being your authority, your bishop, your ecclesiastical leader, your parents, your bishop, whatever. Transferring that locus of authority from an external source into your own inner authority. You are the person you've been looking for. Thank you. Debbie Hull.

Carah Burrell [00:58:33] And I just want to highlight one comment. Juneteenth says. These are all the things I didn't realize I need to hear, but I really do. Thank you so much. This is so validating to me right now. So I'm glad people are connecting with the stuff that we're talking about. It's some of the hardest but most important kind of growth and conversations that I think need to happen.

John Dehlin [00:58:54] So for sure. So let's go to the next kind of who we've, we've already talked about partners and I mentioned kind of during the when that you know, your significant other needs. In my opinion this is my values but should be your top priority. But a very close second for me is children.

John Dehlin [00:59:19] And this is something that goes way back for me. I'm, you know, I'm, let's just say I'm in Logan, I'm in Cache Valley and I had a friend who it turns out he had, he had had a, he had been through a faith crisis years before I ever went through it. And this was an older gentleman, a guy who lost his faith, you know, before Mormon stories had even started. And I, I used his professional services and I found out that he was just pretending to be a believer, that he had an orthodox believing wife and he didn't. He, he felt like if he came out to his wife as an, as a non believer it would ruin the marriage.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] And he decided that he lives in Logan and his kids are all in Cache Valley. The last thing he wanted to do was, was basically take all his kids out of the church and then have them have to live in a very conservative Mormon area where they get ostracized and marginalized.

John Dehlin [01:00:27] So he made the decision as a non believing Mormon parent to just not tell his children, even his teenage children that he didn't believe. So he basically just made the decision to hide and lie and live a double life to his spouse and to his children. Now I am not standing here today in condemnation of that friend. And I know that there are many people listening and viewing who feel like and or in actuality really do need to make that choice again.

John Dehlin [01:01:01] Intrinsic source of authority. Everybody's got to make their own choice and there's no one right choice. I do want to sort of say how I came out on that and there's probably three Things I want to say. I think it would have. Mark, you tell me if this is true. Let's just say, starting with my relationship with you, what would it have been like for you if I had just hid. Hid my faith crisis from you, found friends I could talk to about it, hid it from you, lied to you about it, and just for years, pretended like that never happened to me? And then at some point, you found out, what would that have been like for you? Would you have wanted that?

Margi Dehlin [01:01:44] Well, can I. Can I also just point out, in my relationship with you, I. And I think this is true for most people, you can sense when someone's in pain and suffering. So I. I could visibly see that you were struggling with something and that you were sad and that you were slowly isolating a little bit. And so I knew something was wrong.

John Dehlin [01:02:12] Yeah. Spouses usually know.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:16] Yes. And so I think, you know, what I appreciated in that moment was kind of what Carah was saying and we were talking about earlier was that you trusted me enough to give me an opportunity, a possibility that it was hard to hear. I definitely cried. I had my own response, but it gave me at least a choice, and it gave me the opportunity to have you not be alone in it. And I did not want you to be alone, feeling the way you were feeling. And I think a lot of partners would feel that way, would. Would be like, if you're going through something difficult, at least let's share it.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:58] Let's try to. To work through it together. So that's kind of my. But if it had gone on. Is that what your question is? If it had gone on, it would make me really sad. And I have this feeling for my kids, too, that I. I say hit me hard because I'd rather be hit hard with something and have you not be alone. Then you hold it on your own and to know later you suffered years and years, you know, and you were completely by yourself.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] Yeah. And that in. That brings me to kind of this metaphor that I use about two ships sailing together. You can sail side by side together in a relationship, but as soon as you start hiding and lying who you are, imagine two ships that just start drifting apart and drifting apart and drifting. Drifting apart. It can start out small, but just add, you know, hours and then days and then weeks and then months to that change, of course, you can wake up. You know, you can just start. At first you're hiding your faith stuff, but then you're hiding who you confide in. And then you start confiding in other

Carah Burrell [01:04:08] friends and Then maybe you hide your coping.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:12] Now you're coping with all the hiding because we are not made most of us to hide things.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] Yeah. So as you're internalizing your sadness and your fears and your anxiety, anxiety fearing that if you tell your loved one the truth they'll leave you, it starts to generate depression and anxiety because we're not meant to internalize all those feelings. And so then you start self medicating either through, you know, depression or binge watching TV or sometimes people turn to alcohol or drugs or other types, you know, spending money or other types of relationships. And what ha, what happens is you self medicate. You self medicate, you grow more and more apart. You get comfortable learning to hide in life from your spouse. And what people find is you do that for a year or two years or three years or five years and you've grown too far apart, you've done too much damage and sometimes the relationship isn't retrieval after that.

John Dehlin [01:05:04] And not to mention how much harm you do to your own mental health and wellbeing as you engage in all that self medicating from hiding and lying so much from your spouse. And that's just not good for you. And so those are two reasons why I think hiding is just not, not the way to go with your significant other. But I also want to add about your child. And this is what I decided because even after you and I lost our faith, Margi, I told you that I didn't believe anymore. You read no Man Knows My History by Fawn Brody. You concluded you didn't believe anymore as well.

John Dehlin [01:05:38] We still stayed in the church for another 13 years. Why? Because we had been conditioned to believe and think that you can't raise happy, healthy kids outside of Mormonism. And so we're like, well, I don't know of a better way to raise kids. I've never heard of somebody raising a happy, healthy kid just in a secular way, which was a more reflection of our ignorance and conditioning than it was any actual truth out there. And that makes perfect sense to somebody that wasn't raised in a high demand religion. Did you want to say something?

Margi Dehlin [01:06:05] And you also really, am I right? You wanted to experiment with the idea of whether you could change the church from the inside.

John Dehlin [01:06:15] Yeah, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:15] Like I remember you actually kind of feeling quite to try it out and see if that was something you could do.

John Dehlin [01:06:21] Okay, keep totally true. But then I had to think about, okay, let's say we're going to keep raising them in the church. Do we tell them that we no Longer believe, because that introduces all sorts of complexity. Because then you're, like, bringing them to church, and then they learn about Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon, and they're taught the LGBT people are living in sin and that people who smoke are bad people. And all the things they're learning. And we're continually having to kind of correct all the things they're leaving a church and kind of process and deprogram their conditioning. And that's a challenging thing.

John Dehlin [01:06:55] Long story short, what I think you and I decided is we needed to tell our kids that we no longer believed, whether that was raising them in the church or leaving. And the main reason why is there so many crucial decisions that a kid is going to make if they're being raised in the church? Things like, you know, well, messages they're going to hear around sexuality, messages they're going to hear around masturbation, about modesty, messages they're going to hear about LGBTQ gender identity, sexual identity, whether or not they serve a mission, all the things they're going to be learning in seminary and an institute and in college about church history.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] And then who they marry, do they marry in the temple? Do they marry another faithful person? Do they go on a mission and, you know, do they pursue an education? How soon do they pursue an education? How soon do they start getting married and having kids?

John Dehlin [01:07:51] And what I realized is the absolute, one of the absolute last things I wanted as a parent was to have my kid get to age 30 or 35 or 40, thinking that we were believing orthodox Mormons, thinking that we believed it all.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] Then for them, losing their faith in the church, realizing that it wasn't true, or realizing they were asexual, or realizing they were gay or lesbian, realizing that the whole Mormon dream had fallen apart for them after they had made decisions about college and marriage and children and all and tithing and all those super important things. And when all that fell apart for my kids, and it will for over half of your kids right now, if you're raising your kids in the Mormon Church, over half are going to leave it. Almost a guarantee, on average, it's a guarantee that over half of all your children will leave the church.

John Dehlin [01:08:47] The Mormon dream will fall apart. When that happened with our kids, the last thing I wanted was them to be able to look at me and say, you knew, you knew this wasn't true, and you kept that from me.

John Dehlin [01:09:03] I would have made very different decisions about my mission, about college, about my career, about my marriage, about my. My tithing, about when and when and when, and when to have kids and when not to have kids, about my reputation and how I spent my time. I would have made very different decisions, mom and dad, if you had been honest with me. And you hid and lied this, you hid this from us. You lied to us. I never want to face my kids. And so for that reason I feel very strongly that even as young as 8 years old or 10 years old, if your kids are still in the church, it's very important that the non believing parents feel free to be honest and open with their kid about what they do and don't believe and, and that they don't hide the truth from their kids and they don't lie to their kids.

Carah Burrell [01:09:58] Yeah. And I just want to make anyone who's never been Mormon before, I just want to make a quick distinction that this is the, why we call Mormonism a high demand fundamentalist religion, or sometimes it's called a cult because this is not a Catholic church where you show up twice a year or something else. This is, you dedicate your time, talents, resources. You change your underwear, you change your diet, you sometimes change where you live and money and give money 10% of

John Dehlin [01:10:22] your income for life.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:23] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:10:24] It's not something that you can raise your kids in casually, quite honestly, it's quite a full time commitment. And so the truth claims of Mormonism matter because you are teaching your kids what matters about life and what they should invest their time in. And that's why Mormon stories, we take time with truth claims and we're also taking time to discuss how to leave the church and how to communicate with believing family and friends because these decisions are so weighty on so many people's lives. This is not like another casual religion. So I just want to make that really clear that that's why we spend so much time on this.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:58] Yes. To add on to kind of what you were saying. So we did tell our children. We also decided for a time to give the reins to our children and let them decide what they wanted to do, if they wanted to go, if they didn't want to go, what they believed, what they didn't believe. We started having a lot of dinners with questions if we had. And we were like we were moving in and out. Children were changing at any given time, who was going, who wasn't. We, John and I oftentimes would rotate who would go to sacrament. If we had any child that wanted to go, we would go. One of us would go with them. And it took kind of years for that to kind of play through. And at the time that John was excommunicated, we had three children in kind of roles of presidencies in. In the church at that time.

John Dehlin [01:11:57] Laurel's president. Beehive president.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:59] That's right. One thing that I do think is interesting to bring out is. And this is tricky for people I think at that time, you know, and hindsight is 20 20, I don't know how this shakes out in the wash. This is the messiness of parenting and doing this. But I think we felt. Did you feel good about kind of giving the reins to our kids and having our kids decide John in those moments and navigate for themselves?

Talking With Children About Faith Changes

John Dehlin [01:12:29] Yeah, for sure. Because if we in this, this is something. And we have a whole series of episodes on this on. On Mormon faith crisis podcast. So if you go to mormonfaithcrisis.com there's. There's a whole two or three hours on communicating with your children after a faith crisis. Check out that episode because a lot of people can benefit from that episode. But Margi, I think you were really ferocious about this and I followed your lead, but I was glad I did. We don't want to become the kids new extrinsic authority if we don't want the prophet or Joseph Smith dictating our kids lives. But then we step in and say we're pulling you out of the church because it's a cult and it's untrue and blah, blah, blah.

John Dehlin [01:13:11] How is that any different? So you and I, even after we stopped believing, we. I got excommunicated. You decided to resign because the disciplinary council was so horrific. We were committed to letting our kids make that decision for themselves. And for several months afterwards, our kids kept attending church and we would attend with them. We would take turns, we would attend with them. We were committed to letting them decide their relationship with the church. And that way they couldn't blame us if something bad happened. And that way when they got to adulthood and later, they could always just say we were in the driver's seat for the major decisions we made in life.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:47] And I feel like that sounds good, doesn't it? But it kind of. There is a kickback to that that I feel like is worth noting. And John, remind me, wasn't there a study done recently of members and how many. Wasn't it children under 18 that are LGBTQ or. There was some IA and wasn't it. Do you remember that? Okay, I thought there was a study kind of that was done that showed that the percentage of. Of members that will have LGBTQIA children or. And that it was pretty high.

John Dehlin [01:14:24] Oh, yeah. They. They've surveyed BYU students recently.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:27] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:14:28] And I think the results are that somewhere upwards of 20% of current BYU students are somewhere on the LGBTQ sexual identity and or gender expression spectrum.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:41] One out of five.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:42] Here's a bit of irony. So John gave a TED talk, the Ally within, and our intention and our idea with it when he gave that TED talk was being an ally. And we were thinking. I'm going to get choked up. We were thinking that we were advocating for other people's children. But the truth is we have numerous LGBTQIA children. We do, but we didn't know it. And that's what's hard about, is that I do feel like with some of our children that they're having to work through a lot of messaging that they took in while they were navigating that on their own. And that's tricky. That's just a tricky thing. But we as parents don't know. We may not know how, you know, whether our children are as they're growing up. And so that, to me, was a bit of a blind spot that we had that I just think is worth noting.

Carah Burrell [01:15:49] So it sounds like you're saying even if people choose that path to stay in the church, they have to really come to terms with the likelihood that they might have an LGBTQIA child that is absorbing damaging. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:02] Messages.

Carah Burrell [01:16:04] And if. If that's where your values are. Because quite honestly, some people's values might not be like, the higher value is just to keep. Keep the peace until, you know something, some explosion happens. But what I think Margi's trying to say is you don't know from the time they're eight years old on what they could be absorbing until, you know, there's some suicidality or some kind of attempt or something till the. The crap hits the fan. And we don't want that to happen. We don't want our. Our youth to be getting toxic messaging that they could be internalizing for years before you tell them that these messages aren't even true.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:40] Right.

Carah Burrell [01:16:41] And we've been putting you in an environment, setting you up for some really unhealthy messages.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:46] A hundred percent.

Carah Burrell [01:16:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:48] Yeah. So for all those reasons, I recommend telling your spouse as soon as you can, or your partner, significant other, and your kids, frankly. Now, if you are a non. If you are the doubter, the non believer, and you have a believing spouse, you don't want to just pull your kids off separate, violate your believing spouse's confidence or you know, betray them by, by. From their perspective, trying to take the faith away from, from the kids. So you want to do that with your believing spouse. And there's a whole series on Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis about navigating a mixed faith marriage. You want to do that thoughtfully and carefully. But communicate with your kids. Now is rounding out the subject of the who. There's this idea of deeper relationships. Margi, have you already covered that or is there anything else you wanted to say about?

Margi Dehlin [01:17:37] I feel like it kind of blends with what we were talking about with levels. But, but if you have people, what I would say is during this time you deserve to be surrounded and by people who love and support you and where you're not going to feel this constant fear that you have to filter for them and you have to protect them. And so yeah, absolutely, you can consider disclosing to people who you feel you have that level of relationship with because they're some of your best resources during this time.

John Dehlin [01:18:16] Yeah, absolutely. And so you just do an inventory and sometimes it'll be your best friend from college or high school, sometimes it'll be a friend in the ward. But don't just, you know, don't just trust everyone. You don't have to tell most people. And we talked about that. Most people don't deserve to know. Most people don't want to know. We did a whole discussion about that. For the reasons not to disclose. You can go back and reference that episode but there's plenty of people. The most common response to someone coming out is losing their faith is no response is like cover your ears, cover your eyes, I don't want to know, let's never talk about it again.

John Dehlin [01:18:56] And that's what you should just expect. And so since most people aren't going to want to know or if they do learn, they're going to fight you about it or argue with you about it or try and change you or fix you. You really should just make sure that anybody you disclose to has really earned your trust and your confidence and is going to be safe with you.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:17] That's right.

Carah Burrell [01:19:19] And I don't want to take us back to what we were talking about a second ago, but Gen camp, you are awesome. And I was actually already going to read this question and then they put in a super chat as well. So if you wouldn't mind, I just wanted to highlight this question because we were talking about we, we like to role play. We like to give people actual language and ideas and I want to kind of set up this scenario to give people a better idea. So how did you guys do it? Jen asked during this time that you allowed them, meaning your kids to attend or not, how did you talk to them about your newfound knowledge, assuming, like about truth claims of the church, how did those conversations happen? Like, how much detail did you go into about what you knew?

John Dehlin [01:19:58] It's a great question. Do you want to, do you want to answer that?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:02] You can go first.

John Dehlin [01:20:03] I feel like, yeah, Jen, I do. I don't know if you heard this before. I do want to refer you to. We did a whole several hour episode on communicating with children after a faith crisis. And so we won't be able to do that justice in the time that's remaining today.

John Dehlin [01:20:19] But just to give you the short answer is depending on the age of the kid, you can say certain things. So you can, you know, let's just say they're five years old and you're reading them the story of Noah, Noah's Ark, and you're reading about the flood and the, you know, the God killing all men, women, children and animals in the flood, you can say to a five year old, now, this is the story in the Bible.

John Dehlin [01:20:45] It's just a story. Mommy and Daddy don't believe that God would kill all the men, women, children and the animals. So you can, you can let your 5 year old know things that they're hearing. Another thing, let's just say your 6 or 7 or 8 year old is taught in church that the second coming of Jesus is coming and there's going to be plagues and fire and, you know, brimstone and that the unfaithful are going to torture, you know, bleed and die.

John Dehlin [01:21:14] You can tell. Or your kids are taught that people who smoke are bad, right? Or the people who drink alcohol are bad. You can have conversations with your kids even if everybody's in the church and even if they're still attending and say, mommy and Daddy don't believe that everyone who smokes is bad. Mommy and Daddy don't believe that God curses people with dark skin for wickedness. Mommy and Daddy don't believe that, that God kills men, women and children with the flood.

John Dehlin [01:21:42] That's, you know, and, and we, we would turn that back to the kid and say, hey kid, you don't have to believe anything that feels wrong to you. So if anybody ever teaches you anything about God or Jesus or any truth that feels wrong or sad or not right, you have the right. And even if Mommy and Daddy teach you things that don't feel true or Right to you. You get to decide what, what you believe and what you don't. Young child. So without even getting into peepstones and polyandry and you know, the kinder plates, you know, and DNA in the Book of Mormon, you know, we were comfortable having those conversations with kids while we were all still very active. Does that make sense?

Carah Burrell [01:22:20] Yeah, yeah. Jen added, my kids are 15 through 25 and I think the short answer on that, what would you say John, is for people like that have you're, they're, they're in high school, they're in college age, there's no reason that they can't actually find out what their values are and if they match up with the church one way or another.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] Yeah, totally. And one of the things that we got really comfortable teaching in a mixed faith scenario is this idea of the following. Daddy believes this, daddy believes X, mommy believes Y. What do you believe as Z. So one of the most effective, and you could do that at any age. 15 year old, 17 year old, 18 year old, 21 year old, you can say the church teaches X, daddy believes Y, mommy believes Z. And then child, what do you believe? And that's a really effective way to kind of have these sorts of conversations and model the idea that everybody doesn't have to believe the same thing. That in a family that loves each other, we can have different beliefs and still love and support each other.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:30] Yeah, a couple, a couple other thoughts are just for me personally, I really like one on one. So talking to a child, to each child separately, that allows you to kind of curate what you want to say to the child's age, to their personality. We had one child that as a child I feel like maybe 12. Okay. So like you know, just going into was just like tell me everything, I want everything.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:02] And, and so I like, I love the idea of it being child led a little bit. And so, and we used a lot of these things that we're sharing today. At least the initial conversation we didn't overwhelm. It wasn't trying to get them to, to see the whole thing. It was very much like, you know, we have some differences, things are coming up. This is how we feel about, you know, we have some differences in belief and we're needing some space. And so you may notice mom and dad doing some different things. And then from there we had these debriefings. When our kids did go and attend, when they would get home normally we would have some type of meal and we would ask what did you like?

Margi Dehlin [01:24:48] What didn't you like what resonated with you, what didn't resonate with you. And sometimes questions are the best things for kids to start connecting with themselves. That is what you want. You want kids that start connecting with what they think.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:04] That's one of the most protective things they can have. Right. Because that's where I feel like the church grabs us, is that when we. We actually don't factor in the equation at all. We hear. That's what we think. Right. We hear what something we need to do and we do it. We. And so that's kind of a loose form of how we went about really fostering our kids. Curiosity, asking questions, what they thought about things.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:37] And the church, if you're in the church, it really offers countless, countless scenarios for you to have conversations like this. Like, I feel like we were having them all the time. So also thinking that it's not one conversation you have, but now it's a way to connect with your kids long term. So numerous conversations.

John Dehlin [01:26:00] Love it. Yeah. Yeah. Takes time. And that should be its own episode kind of communicating with kids. But I think we've, hopefully we've covered a lot about that. As far as just rounding out the who conversation, I would just say need to know basis only communicate with those who need to know. I don't even think you need to tell bishops necessarily. We've modeled this before. We did some role play where you just tell the bishop, I, you know, we need to be released. For now, we've just got some really busy summer and things are kind of crazy.

John Dehlin [01:26:38] So, you know, I don't even think you need to disclose your, your lack of faith to your bishop or stake president. And there are all sorts of reasons why that could be dangerous. And ward members to ward members. We've got a whole episode on the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis about communicating with ward members. They don't need to know, neighbors don't need to know. And you can get in all sorts of trouble about people gossiping about you and communicating, making you a project, and even you facing church discipline just for telling ward members that you're questioning your faith. So I say you're safest to focus on a need to know basis and try to avoid telling anyone who isn't safe to tell unless you want to be an activist.

John Dehlin [01:27:22] And it's a legitimate choice to just say it's my values to tell everyone, because I would have wanted to know. I'm grateful for those who spoke up and let me know about the problems, because we all know the bubble is real. And so, so you can choose to tell everyone to post it on Facebook, to post it on YouTube, to post it on TikTok, to come on Mormon Stories podcast and tell your story. You just have to realize there is a cost to openness and it. It can.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:55] And a gift.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] There's a gift and a cost. And you just have to decide if you are really ready for the gift and the cost of, of speaking up publicly, because it's real.

Carah Burrell [01:28:07] And may I add, when you do speak out publicly, as I started to do on TikTok and a lot of other people, you find a new community of other people who are also kind of badass and also want to speak up and you get a new, like, chosen family. Like we were saying, you find other people who are like, yeah, I'm not going to let this cost risk analysis haunt me anymore. I'm just going to start speaking up and you'll find other badass people too.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:28] Yeah, I love that.

John Dehlin [01:28:31] So we've got a couple more things we're going to try and talk just as we round out this episode. We're going to. We're trying to keep these to about two hours each. The next kind of main segment is kind of the how. How do you disclose to believing family and friends?

How to Disclose: Direct and Indirect Approaches

John Dehlin [01:28:47] And there's different ways to do it and you could think of it as kind of more and less personal ways to disclose. And I would even think of I. Or more direct and maybe less direct ways to disclose. I don't know exactly the right word, but let's explore it for just a bit. So let's say there's anywhere along the spectrum from sitting them down and talking to them face to face, right? Let's just say that's on one side of the spectrum. Maybe a little bit more towards the middle would be like a phone conversation or a Skype or a FaceTime conversation where you're not necessarily in the same room.

John Dehlin [01:29:30] But let's just say you can see each other and hear each other to just a phone call, which would be just hearing each other. Then there's kind of the. The less. I don't know if it's direct or personal, but if we keep moving down the spectrum, there is, you know, doing it through email, right, where you're writing it down and thinking through all your thoughts, sharing it in an email form and then sending it it and then letting them read it at their own leisure and then respond at their own leisure. And then obviously, I think the. The way to disclose that I recommend least would be through text I just don't think you should ever really tell anyone this sort of thing through text or even like Facebook messaging or direct messaging.

John Dehlin [01:30:16] So that's kind of a spectrum. Margi, how do you think about which ones may or may not be appropriate? Again, let's introduce this concept of safety and, and levels of safety now to the form of disclosure. Can you see where those things might map together? Does that make sense?

Carah Burrell [01:30:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:38] And let me just say I think there are strengths to all these and there are weaknesses.

John Dehlin [01:30:43] There's no one right way.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:44] Yes. So I mean, and one thing I notice is, you know, there's increasing vulnerability, increasing exposure. So face to face, you're going to have a lot of vulnerability and a lot of exposure with that that you have a little less of if you choose email. And there is no right way. There's probably just a way to kind of pick maybe the best match for what your, you feel up to and what type of relationship it is and how safe you feel. So does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:31:20] Yeah, totally.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:21] Okay, so if we were going to look at face to face, should we do like strengths and like the strength of face to face is that on some level you have all the information. You're having body language and they have, you have facial expression, you have body language, you have presence, you have, you know. Yeah. The energy behind you're just. You have a shared experience.

John Dehlin [01:31:50] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:51] That's one of the strengths.

John Dehlin [01:31:52] So much of communication is body language. It's the tears welling up in your eyes that may not come through in a phone call or in an email. It's the quivering lip, it's the body language. If they're uncomfortable, how they're sitting, how they're folding their arms. If you, if, and frankly, if you want to communicate sadness or vulnerability or how difficult this has been for you, it's going to be way more effective to communicate that in person than through email. Because email, you can't always read tone, you can't always read the emotion in an email. Sometimes you can, but sometimes you can't.

Carah Burrell [01:32:26] Carah, I've never heard of this before. I love this. Alex said. My wife and I just finished a course with Leah, Leah Young and decided to do a bit of a mix. And me wrote a letter and read it to them via Zoom. It was a good mix of personal and boundary setting.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:42] That's a great hybrid.

John Dehlin [01:32:43] Yeah. And that's a shout out to Leah. What I like about that is that, you know, you want to be careful what you say.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:50] Yes, this is a weakness.

Carah Burrell [01:32:51] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:32:52] Yeah. Because if you, if you have, you know, we talked about this. If it's just like I'm going to just tell you all the problems and I'm going to be angry and you need to get nervous and flustered. You can really do damage. So if you take the time to write out the letter ahead of time, then you can be really thoughtful and careful about what you say. But then I like the idea of a hybrid of reading either in person or over zoom because then they can feel the emotion and it can, it can feel more personal. What did you like about that?

Carah Burrell [01:33:21] Yeah, yeah, exactly what you said. Yeah, And I'll make a joke too that like if they start yelling at you like my Internet's going out boundary.

John Dehlin [01:33:28] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:33:29] Look at that. Yeah, you're cutting out. Sorry, bad connection.

John Dehlin [01:33:32] I can't hear you.

Carah Burrell [01:33:33] Yeah, I think.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:34] Yeah, keep going.

Carah Burrell [01:33:35] Sorry, I was just gonna say. And then I would, if I did that with my parents now, I would love to be like. And now I'll be open for questions like a Q and a segment. You know, at the end be like, I said my piece, here's what I want to say now. I will be receiving questions. But.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I really like that because it takes some of the harder aspects of the face to face. Like for me it's. I'm a much better writer and I can be really intentional with my words. So it takes that.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:01] But it also the other. Another part of Face to Face that can be hard for people is if they have strong emotions. So if you, if you do have someone who's more of a volatile personality or someone, or if you have the type of relationship as a child where you care for your parent, you're a little bit more of a caretaker or a little more, you take on the parent role sometimes I think that can be a tough ask for you.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:32] So if you have a parent, then that really breaks down and is wanting you to take care of them, that's a tough face to face ask. Or you have a really angry parent that now is on a tirade and now you're put in this place of, you know, a large effort. You've just made a large effort and now you've got a large effort boundarying session in, in place. So those are some of the tricky aspects of Face to Face is just they have no space and either do you to process before you get the reaction. You're going to get the reaction in real time. And sometimes space is good for everyone.

John Dehlin [01:35:11] Carah, would you mind reading Elsie and Weeza? We have two really good comments. Do you. Do you mind reading those?

Carah Burrell [01:35:17] Because. Planning on it anyway. The one about being able to talk out loud. Yeah, drive. That one or a different one.

John Dehlin [01:35:24] The. Yeah. Being able to talk out loud. And then Weeza. I communicated via email.

Carah Burrell [01:35:28] Oh, you want to do Weeza's first?

John Dehlin [01:35:29] Either one.

Carah Burrell [01:35:30] All right, I'll do. Is this first?

John Dehlin [01:35:31] No, either one.

Carah Burrell [01:35:32] You want me to read it?

John Dehlin [01:35:33] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:35:34] Weeza wrote, I communicated via email and asked people to respond through phone if they wanted to chat. Since we live far away, my mom and stepdad did not respect my wishes. Wishes. And the response was difficult to read.

John Dehlin [01:35:47] Okay, so that's. Wheeze is sharing their experience with us. Any reactions to that, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [01:35:56] Just how this experience oftentimes is a filter of sorts where, you know, the data that comes in is it. It can be a hard. It can be hard to take. You know that you can make requests and you can, again, show up in this way of good faith. And what comes back at you can be disappointing.

John Dehlin [01:36:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Wheeze is just reminding us that you can plan it all like you said and do it all right. And people may be and probably will be upset and mean or unkind or insensitive in some important way, and you should just, you know, do your best and maybe they'll surprise you, but be prepared for something not going so great. And then Elsie's comment, too. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:36:38] About Thrive.

John Dehlin [01:36:40] No, no, no. Being able to talk out loud.

Carah Burrell [01:36:42] Yeah, that was about thrive.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:43] It is about thrive.

Carah Burrell [01:36:45] So being able to talk out loud was so good for me. I went to Thrive women's conference last Saturday, and it was a big game changer. And I met her, by the way, and we have. Because she's. She's always in the chat. Hey, I won't say your real name, but now I know it. Big game changer. I'd never spoke out loud to others until that conference. Until at the conference. I guarantee so many people felt the same way as well. Never able to share your concerns with anybody that's been close enough to be vulnerable with. And it's. Even though most people there you're probably meeting are strangers, but they've been through the same stuff. And that ups your level of, like, emotional intimacy to a stranger almost more than, you know, your children that are believing or your parents.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:21] Yep.

Carah Burrell [01:37:21] So that's what an. That's what a faith crisis does, is that you have an immediate level of. I mean, Margi, you were there, like, the. The level of vulnerability in that. In that room of 800 women. People ask like, will it be online somewhere? And I was like, I don't think it ever should be. Because it was just so.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:36] I agree.

Carah Burrell [01:37:37] Just like a good space for people to finally just share what was on their hearts.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:41] Yes. And noting that how many. When they did the raise of hands in the beginning, how, how for so many who attended, that was the first event, Public event they'd been to.

Carah Burrell [01:37:52] Yeah. How many. Because we had people stand. I'll just describe at the beginning, Lisa Hacking said, how many of you. Da da da da. How many people had to tell a white lie to be here? And people will stand up. So they did a lot of thrive events and then they asked how many people. This is the first post Mormon event you've ever been to.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:09] What was.

Carah Burrell [01:38:09] What's your estimation of how many people stood up?

Margi Dehlin [01:38:12] Oh, I mean, what do you remember? I would just remember it being a lot.

Carah Burrell [01:38:15] I remember wanting to cry. I remember getting chills. Yeah, it was. It felt like 90%. It felt like every single person of an 800 room.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:22] Yeah. Stood up.

Carah Burrell [01:38:23] It was like, like, yeah, I got chills. So just. Yeah. Back to Elsie's.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:27] So we celebrate you, Elsie. That's amazing.

Carah Burrell [01:38:29] Yeah. And it's. It's really hard. I totally understand. Like, I think we talked about this last time, like, so many of these conversations. It's the first time you've ever even needed to have these hard conversations and you don't. And you're going to be messy and stuff and it's going to be difficult. So go easy on yourself. But any opportunity you can come to post Mormon event and you get to vibe with other people and learn from other people, see how other people have done that. We had like lighthouses, which is what we were calling the women who were like, had already been kind of like down the pathway a little bit further, that people could reach out and connect with that thrive for advice and stuff.

Carah Burrell [01:39:03] Like, there's. It's. It's such a difficult thing. But I just. I'm just so happy for all the people that showed up, showed up for their. For themselves, you know, to like improve their mental health, get a new community.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:15] So, yeah, I do think for. Is it wisa. One thing I do want to just. If I could highlight that I think is important is it's natural for our brains to focus on people's reactions, especially if they're disappointing and if they hurt us and that we should process that. I would also add, do not forget Weeza, to give yourself a lot of positive reinforcement. A lot of like, just treat yourself is what I'm going to say. Like, you just did something hard and you did something. I feel like that's brave. It took a lot of courage. And don't let that get lost in, you know, people's reactions which you have no control over. Don't let it take away from the great effort and the great courage that you show in these moments. Not any of you love it.

Carah Burrell [01:40:18] I'm gonna cry. It was so beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:20] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:40:21] So well said. Good job. Oh my gosh. Like, it's speechless. Go on.

John Dehlin [01:40:26] What are you feeling, Carah?

Carah Burrell [01:40:28] Nothing, I just. It's so hard. I still. We still are the dms. We get the thrive. I'm just like so many just. It's like really things are coming to a head that just. There's so many people in this really toxic space that they want to get out of. They don't know how, they don't know how to navigate it. But there's. This is the. Between what we just did at thrive in this conversation. I'm just so happy that like people are doing the best for themselves and their families to get out of this space that doesn't serve them anymore. Like, it just makes me happy.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:59] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:41:00] Yep. Amen. All right, well, so that's kind of the how. There's no right answer, but just be mindful about it. And there's. You can do any combination. You can write it in email or in a letter form, or you can speak it, or you can write it and then speak it. You can do it in person, you can do it mixed over Skype. You know, just Sky's the limit. But just be, think about how safe the person is that you're going to be speaking to. Think about what their reactions might be. Think about your own level of safety and security and well being and pick the right method that matches the person.

John Dehlin [01:41:44] Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Okay. The last thing that I think we're going to be covering today is the what it's sort of like what do you disclose? And I'm going to give you my preference. And I've talked about this before, but I'm going to give you what I think is the most effective response I've seen on average. And that's the less is more approach.

Role Play: Telling a Spouse About Losing Your Faith

John Dehlin [01:42:13] And I'll just, I'll role model it right now. Can we do a role play, Margi? Because people really love the role play. Is that okay?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:42:19] Okay. All right. So I'm going to do a bad role play and then a good role play. I'm going to do a. What I think is an ineffective disclosure, and then I'm going to do an effective disclosure. Is that okay?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:29] And what's our relationship?

John Dehlin [01:42:31] So you are my spouse, and I think we've kind of done a flavor of this role play, but I think we can never get enough of it. So you're a believing spouse? I'm. I've lost my faith and I'm disclosing to you kind of for the first time. Is that okay?

Carah Burrell [01:42:49] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:42:49] Is that all right?

Margi Dehlin [01:42:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:42:51] Okay, You're a believer. All right. Okay. So I'm going to do the more is more approach. All right.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:57] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:42:57] And see how that goes. And then I'm gonna do the less is more approach and see how that goes. Is that all right?

Margi Dehlin [01:43:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:03] Okay. All right. And you just give me your caded reactions. Okay?

Margi Dehlin [01:43:07] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:43:08] Okay. You ready? Carrie, you can jump in if you have anything.

Carah Burrell [01:43:10] Can I be like a whining child asking for a cup of milk? I'm trying to make it realistic.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:15] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:43:15] You can be a teenage believe in teenage daughter with mom. So I'm dad disclosing to mom and daughter. How's that?

Carah Burrell [01:43:23] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:23] Do you want it? Oh, so you're not doing one on one either. So look, you're doing a lot of things.

John Dehlin [01:43:28] So I'm choosing. I'm choosing right now to disclose to my. My wife and daughter.

Carah Burrell [01:43:34] Are we also at Disneyland? And we're like, we're in line.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:37] Are we at a family gathering where

Carah Burrell [01:43:39] it's like, this is just not a good time. We're like happiest place on earth and you want to drop a.

John Dehlin [01:43:43] We're mixing. We're mixing. Seen too many variables. But I'm just trying to. I'm just trying to incorporate. You care.

Carah Burrell [01:43:48] Okay. I don't need to be incorporated. I am so self secure. I don't need anybody.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:51] As if you want to do another one. Carah could be a teen. A teen child.

John Dehlin [01:43:56] Okay, well, we'll see.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:57] I don't want to because people have been asking.

Carah Burrell [01:43:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:44:00] All right. So I'm disclosing to you more is more approach. You ready?

Margi Dehlin [01:44:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:44:04] Okay. All right. Hey, sweetie. I've got something I need to tell you. Is that okay? Do you mind sitting down? Because I. I need to talk to you.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:12] You.

Carah Burrell [01:44:12] Oh, okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:13] Do I need. Wow. I need to sit down. Sure.

John Dehlin [01:44:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:16] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:44:16] Well, this is kind of serious, so I kind of need you to be prepared for the fact that this is really serious.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:23] Okay, Now I'm scared, but sure.

John Dehlin [01:44:27] Okay. So I. I've Been studying a lot about church history, and I stumbled on this website called Letter to a CES Director. And. And then I also stumbled on to a podcast called Mormon Stories Podcast.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:47] Okay, so those aren't church sanctioned, are they? Where that's not a church. Well, neither of them.

John Dehlin [01:44:54] I mean, I don't want to get too focused on that because I more want to talk about what I learned from those. From those sources.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:02] I'm not surprised if you're having issues right now, given where you chose to look. So I'm not sure I will actually am interested.

John Dehlin [01:45:11] Okay. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:12] You going to a random place? If it would be different, if it was like a church website or a church saying that, that would be different.

John Dehlin [01:45:19] Okay, well, I don't want to get too caught up in that, so let's just say also that I read essays that are on the church's website. They're called the Gospel Topics essays, and they're on the church's website. And I. I read this information from there as well. Does that make you feel better that they're actually on the church's website?

Margi Dehlin [01:45:36] I'm not sure any of this is making me feel better, but carry on.

John Dehlin [01:45:40] Okay. All right. Well, anyway, so from reading these various sources, I've learned some things that have been really troubling for me. The first thing I learned is that the Book of Mormon is not a translation of an ancient record, but instead, it's. It's like fiction that Joseph Smith kind of like. Why are you shaking your head?

Margi Dehlin [01:46:01] How could you possibly know that? How could you? I mean.

John Dehlin [01:46:05] Well, you would have to read the material to find out.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:07] No, I actually don't. I actually don't have to read the material.

John Dehlin [01:46:10] How is it that you can judge

Margi Dehlin [01:46:12] without even reading testimony? There's nothing I need to. To read except the Book of Mormon and to know my own heart.

John Dehlin [01:46:20] But if. But, but I'm your. I'm your spouse. You love me. You should trust me. I've read these things. You haven't even read them yet. You're giving me an opinion about something that you haven't even bothered to read yet.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:31] I'm not going to read the sources if. If what you're saying right now is things you've read now have affected your testimony, you're right. I won't be reading any of that.

John Dehlin [01:46:43] But then.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:44] Because I value. I value my relationship with the church and with the Savior and with my. Too much to do that.

John Dehlin [01:46:54] But you're. But this is like a ostrich sticking its head in the sand. Like this is the cult mentality of,

Margi Dehlin [01:46:59] like, people loved me. You would never ask me to do this. And if you. If you loved the church and you valued the church and our family in it, you would never do this.

John Dehlin [01:47:12] No, no, no. I love.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:13] So I don't trust you.

John Dehlin [01:47:14] I don't tell you this because I love you. I am telling you this because I don't want you to be in a culture cult. And if you're in a cult, you're not. You're not. You're basing your life on not all the information.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:24] Not what love feels like. This is not what it feels like.

John Dehlin [01:47:26] But I'm telling you the truth. Truth is love.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:30] You may think it's the truth, but anything that leads away, leads us away from the truth of the gospel and leads me away from my own testimony to what I know is true. That's not true. That's no truth that I have any interest in.

John Dehlin [01:47:45] But did you know that Joseph smith had over 30 wives? Did you know that? Did you know that he had 30 wives?

Margi Dehlin [01:47:50] I don't want to hear hearsay. I don't want to hear.

John Dehlin [01:47:53] It's not hearsay. It's on the church's own website.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:57] I won't be reading anything that comes between me and my testimony with the church.

John Dehlin [01:48:03] And.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:04] Well. And I'm done with his conversation.

John Dehlin [01:48:06] What?

Margi Dehlin [01:48:06] And I'm done with this.

John Dehlin [01:48:07] I'm not done. I wanted. There's. I've got a whole list of things that I wanted to read.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:10] I am walking away, but you can't see it because I'm sitting in this chair.

John Dehlin [01:48:16] Okay. Carah.

Carah Burrell [01:48:18] Love it.

John Dehlin [01:48:19] What are your. What are your reactions? Are there any.

Carah Burrell [01:48:21] First of all, I just wanted to highlight a bunch of the comments where everyone's just like, I love Scott's comment. Margi is so savage as a believer. It's just like, it feels like a window into the past. Perhaps even actually ironically.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:39] No.

Carah Burrell [01:48:41] Really? Okay, good, good, good. Yeah. Okay. Maybe a window into my past. Then I was like, that sounds familiar. Yeah. And I think we're going back to the Nephi complex thing where it's like, you loved me before, you'll love me again. I don't want to be downgraded in your mind. You know, like, it's like, if I. If I only tell you something that you know is immoral, is blank, I'm going to throw out a church history fact that you know on an objective level is an immoral thing. If I throw that out in this conversation.

Carah Burrell [01:49:10] What is the logic behind that? Like, does. Has Anyone ever been like, oh, when you put it that way, suddenly my like disarmed and now we're not fighting anymore. It's like, no, you've already gone to that emotional place. There's no point in bringing up like kind of like objectable facts about what Joseph Smith did. You're, you're beyond that. You're too emotional to be talking about it.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:29] I am defending my turf for sure. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:49:32] Like there's that we, we hope that like, if only you hear one thing, you'll change your mind. It's not the, it's not the space, it's not the tone. Just cut it out.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:42] The right fact.

John Dehlin [01:49:43] Yeah, yeah. And Mindy, our friend Mindy, adds John, you can't call it a cult. Instant shutdown. And that's. I was trying to model a bad example. So part of what I'm saying, Mindy and listeners, is Mindy's right. Rule number one is never say things like pedophile or sexual predator or cult when you're disclosing to a family member. That's the more is more approach. And it immediately is going to put those walls up, make them feel defensive and, or offended. And so Mindy's right. Don't use those words. I was basically trying to, to illustrate that when you do the more and more approach, you start getting pulled into this conversation about what are your sources, where did you get this information from?

John Dehlin [01:50:27] I feel dark. I've never heard this, this stuff before. You know, you'll even tell your believing family members that you got this information from the church's website. And Carol, what's the common response when you tell them? This is from stuff I read on the church's website. What do they say?

Carah Burrell [01:50:43] That it's been like co opted by somebody who's lying or that it's misinterpreted

John Dehlin [01:50:48] or someone hacked the church's website. Right? Yeah. You just. The more information you give, the more you start to have an argument. You start, it turns into a debate and it gets derailed and it goes sideways. So yes, Mindy, you're right. Never use the term cult or sexual predator or pedophile or any of those words when you're coming out.

Carah Burrell [01:51:09] In my opinion, and in my opinion as well also I agree with you. And I just wanted to add, we talked about this before and if Carah has one thing that I want to say, I've been in those bad situations. I've been online for a very, very long time. I used to be the Mormon conservative girl on Twitter that was arguing with the ex Mormons. And if you want to shut down a conversation really quick where I have nothing else that I want to hear you say, call the church a cult. Call Joseph Smith a pedophile. Throw out the worst things, because that's an ex Mormon who's on an ego trip who just wants to hurt a Mormon's feelings and tell you that you are a moron.

Carah Burrell [01:51:41] Yeah, that doesn't, that's not, not conducive. If you actually care about somebody and you want what's best for them, don't intentionally hurt their feelings. If we are telling you that this

Margi Dehlin [01:51:50] isn't helpful, it's like, don't go in with the bombs. Yeah. It's the heavy hitters.

Carah Burrell [01:51:55] Yeah. Be smart enough. My, my one major critique of the ex Mormon community generally is that we act like we love science all the time. Scientifically. We know how the brain works. We know what the, like the backfire effect. We know these things on a psychological level. Let's put them into use and take like our ego trip. Have that be in the backseat and like the person driving the car is an empathetic person who actually cares about the person that's in the conversation with you and not just hurling insults just because you can. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:25] Good.

Carah Burrell [01:52:25] That's great.

John Dehlin [01:52:27] Thanks, Carah. I'm excited to be able to read a comment from Scott Bob, one of our super fans. Scott writes, once it gets to a certain level of anger, there's no turning back until we're all cooled down and what. Scott. Hey, Scott, thanks for your support, your endless support on YouTube, because you do great work there in the comments, Scott. But Scott's reminding us that our brain has different compartments. And one of the compartments of the brain is called the amygdala. It's the emotional center of the brain. Some call it the reptile brain or the lizard brain or the monkey brain. But what we know about the brain is that when you're emotionally triggered, and I'm Margi, I'm guessing I emotionally triggered you with my.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:07] I think, I think for a believer this would be emotionally triggering severely.

John Dehlin [01:53:11] I mean, it would be comparable to like a lion charging at them in the wilderness. The brain often can't distinguish between physical threat and psychological or emotional threat. So you're. You're potentially going to be triggering them at the level of a lion charging at them on the savannah. That's. That's how bad it can get. And all of a sudden they're not going to hear any words you say. Their IQ is going to drop. They're going to be less intelligent, and that's you, too. When you get triggered, you become dumber. And all of a sudden, instead of both being of average intelligence or above average intelligence, you're going down into the below average intelligence.

John Dehlin [01:53:47] You're insulting each other, you're yelling at each other, you're just speaking from an emotionally charged space. And until you cool down and your brain kind of resets and shifts to the cerebral frontal cortex, the place of executive function functioning in the brain, you're just going to be doing damage to each other. And so Scott reminds us that that's why the more is more approach is almost always destined to fail. You're going to inevitably push each other into the triggered space. You're going to fight, you're going to yell at each other, you're going to do damage, and you're not going to actually make any positive progress.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:20] True, I agree. And I also think there's this idea of emotional intelligence that we can have that's part of healthy intimacy, where you can realize when you're entering into your partner's china shop. And what I mean by that is we all have these spaces inside us where it's fragile in there. Right. There's a lot of china. And what we don't want to do as partners is to go in with a bat and start swinging it around and breaking all the china. What we want is what to. To have a moment of realizing, I'm going into this space, there's a lot of china for my partner. So how do I do that without breaking everything in there?

John Dehlin [01:55:11] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:11] And that's just. Just taking emotional care of another human that you love.

John Dehlin [01:55:16] Beautiful. Thank you, Margi. All right.

Carah Burrell [01:55:21] And would you mind if I read one quote?

John Dehlin [01:55:23] Yeah, please.

Carah Burrell [01:55:24] Can I. Can I announce the person that we've been talking to on Facebook real quick?

John Dehlin [01:55:27] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:55:28] We've been planning this for a few months, actually, maybe even, like, way before I even worked here. Like, you've been already talking with Anthony. So a lot of the ways that I learned a lot of these good scales was three street epistemology. And if you don't know what that is, look up Anthony Magnabasco. Look up street epistemology. There's Facebook groups, there's Reddit threads, there's YouTube channels. Cordial curiosity is another great one. So we. I would like just to announce that we are going to have. Am I allowed to say this? You're not mad, are you? We are hopefully, hopefully working on. I'm making sure it's going to happen. I Will drag him from Texas here with my own two bare hands to get Magni. Anthony Magnavasco to come talked to us about street epistemology on Mormon stories. So I just wanted to throw that resource out. Exciting.

John Dehlin [01:56:10] Yeah, we're excited. And we'll also. Do you mind adding that to the show notes? We'll add street epistemology there. Street epistemology is just basically a really effective approach at talking to people about their beliefs. I don't know that it's necessarily. I don't. I'd have to think about how relevant it is for the disclosure sort of piece because I'm trying to focus on the less is more approach right now. But it's definitely a super crucial tool to talking to other people about their beliefs.

Carah Burrell [01:56:41] Yeah. Starting off with just how we both agree what is true, how people

Margi Dehlin [01:56:46] go

Carah Burrell [01:56:46] about exercising those values and how we arrive at what is true. And just as a society, like it's important that we have the same starting points of what is true. How do we decide what's true? And so even though I'm past disclosing to my parents about my faith crisis, I still use the tools of a street epistemology all the time to talk to them. And it, it puts like a thousand foot view on the conversation. We're not talking about the issues, we're talking about how we derive truth. And I think it just elevates the conversation and takes emotion out of it because it's just a good back and forth way to, to go about having these difficult, these difficult, problematic conversations. So yeah, definitely look that up, guys.

John Dehlin [01:57:26] Thank you. Yeah, and we're looking forward to that. I'll do the less is more role play with you now. And then I think there's a way to slip in some of the Socratic dialogue method, Magna Bosco stuff after the, the brief disclosure because I think there's actually a real place for that, even the disclosure, but it might come after the actual disclosure. So we'll, we'll jump back to that. And yes, I'm excited to have Anthony here. So Margi, I am now going to do the less is more. So this is a different role play. I'm going to now do the less is more disclosure. So we're going to reset, we're going to back up and I'm going to do the less is more. How does that sound? Are you ready for that?

Margi Dehlin [01:58:06] I'm ready.

John Dehlin [01:58:06] Okay, here we go. Hey, sweetie. I. Oh, and by the way, I'm going to also do the love sandwich approach where I'm going to start by. By showing a lot of love and support, helping build a sense of safety. Then I'm going to disclose briefly and then I'm going to end with a lot of love and kindness and support. I call it the love sandwich approach. And you're going to notice me do that here. Is that okay, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [01:58:34] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:58:34] Okay, so let's try and begin. All right. Margi. Hey. I needed to talk to you for a couple minutes. Is that okay?

Margi Dehlin [01:58:43] I think so. Sure.

John Dehlin [01:58:44] Okay. The first thing I wanted to say is how much I love you. I want you to know that I. I am so grateful for our relationship. We've been married 25 years. I consider you my most important partner. I. I care so much about you. I want to be able to tell you everything. I never want to keep anything from you. And I love that you and I have this relationship where we can tell each other everything. And so I just appreciate that. And I appreciate how safe you make me feel and how you care about my well being. And I never doubt that. And so I just wanted to start by just saying I genuinely appreciate that and I love you and I love our relationship. And I've never felt more committed ever to our relationship than I do right now.

Carah Burrell [01:59:35] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:36] That's really lovely to hear. Is something going on? Is there something.

John Dehlin [01:59:41] Well, I do. I do need to share something with you, but that's the first thing I wanted to share.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:46] Because I need you to know that you are my number one. You're the most important thing to me and I adore you. And, and that's why I feel so safe coming to you with something that I need to share.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:57] Okay. I got that.

John Dehlin [01:59:58] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:59] Thanks, babe. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:59] Okay, so here's what I needed to share with you. And this is going to be. This may be a little bit hard. I need you to know that my relationship with the church, my feelings about the church have been going through some changes.

John Dehlin [02:00:17] And I'm. I'm. I'm having some questions about the church and there's some things about the church that I'm struggling with. And I just. I need you to know that. And it's been really hard and it's been sad for me and I don't like it, but I'm going through it and I just, I needed you to know that. And I just want to add that I respect your beliefs so much that I have no desire to like, get into details with it about you, to, to talk about any of the specifics. I just didn't want to Hide it from you. And I wanted to let you know.

John Dehlin [02:00:53] And I also need to add that I'm not planning on making any changes. I'm committed to you as ever in our marriage. I'm not going to be changing any of my behaviors anytime soon. So I want you to feel safe that, like, nothing's going to change other than that. Right now, I'm just working through some things, and I wanted you to know about that.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:19] Well, that makes sense, because I feel like. Is that why you've been isolating a little bit more and I've kind of noticed you being sad more? You've been sticking to yourself more?

John Dehlin [02:01:29] Yeah. And I. I wasn't sure if you'd noticed, but. Yeah, I've been afraid to tell you because I was afraid that if I told you the truth, you wouldn't love me anymore and that it might hurt our marriage. And I care about our marriage more than anything else. And so I've been afraid to tell you.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:47] I'm really sorry you've been feeling sad. I'm a little bit scared because I don't have a sense for what you're talking about or what it means for us, if that makes sense. So are you talking like you've lost your testimony? Are you thinking that? Like, what. What is it? What does this mean? What do you mean by.

John Dehlin [02:02:05] Yeah, it's definitely. It has to do with, like, the church's history and the church's teachings, but I don't. Like, I'm still trying to figure it out. And so what I need.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:16] Well, maybe I can help you.

John Dehlin [02:02:18] Yeah, well, what. What I. What I would like to do is, is kind of like, show you the utmost respect, because I never want you to feel like I'm trying to damage your faith or that I'm trying to change your faith. And I'm still trying to figure it out. So if it's okay, I'm just going to be working through this stuff. I'm not going to make any behavioral changes, but I'm just going to be processing it. And when I get to the point where I really understand where I'm landing with all this stuff, I'm willing to maybe share with you some of the resources that

John Dehlin [02:02:51] I've been learning from, But I would only want to do that if you were requesting it, because I never want to ever be in a position where you feel like I'm trying to change your faith or damage it. I want to show you total respect in that regard. Does that make sense?

Margi Dehlin [02:03:08] I really appreciate that. And this is just really overwhelming because I don't have a sense for how this is going to work out. So, like, what. What you don't believe and I do and what that means for our family, like, we're just different now. And now we're just like, I don't know how this works.

John Dehlin [02:03:27] Yeah. Yeah, it's scary, and I understand why it would feel scary. And so for now, I would just say let's take it. Like, I'm committed to, you know that that's not changing, that I love you, that I support your faith and that I'm in the long haul with you, and that I'm not going to go acting out. I'm not going to start drinking. I'm not going to go doing things that violate any of the agreements that we have. If I make any behavioral changes, it would only be through talking to you about it. But all you need to know for now is I'm just working through some stuff.

John Dehlin [02:04:03] I don't want you to learn this later. I know you've been sensing that I've been struggling. And so for now, what if we just take it day by day? But I'll be communicating with you all along the way.

John Dehlin [02:04:12] I just need you to know I love you. I'm going through this, but I'm committed to you. And, you know, that's. That's all I just wanted to say for now.

Carah Burrell [02:04:23] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:24] Well, it's really, really hard to hear, but I'm glad that you told me.

John Dehlin [02:04:29] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:31] Keeping it. Keep talking to me, please.

John Dehlin [02:04:33] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:34] I don't want to be blindsided by anything.

John Dehlin [02:04:36] I will. I promise you, I won't surprise you with anything. And if. If I come to any really firm conclusions, I'll let you know. But I also am going to just be supportive of your journey. And I'm never going to try and tear your faith down or tell you things that are going to destroy your faith because I. I love and respect you too much. Okay. Carah, I'm curious if you have any reactions to that and if the viewers or listeners have any reactions as well.

Carah Burrell [02:05:08] Elsie, just wanted to say, sweetie, first clue that something is up, you know, that kind of like, almost puts a scary tone to it, but besides that.

John Dehlin [02:05:17] Yeah. So maybe don't. Don't use those types of terms. I don't know if that wouldn't work.

Carah Burrell [02:05:22] The only reaction that I have is I. I'm just thinking. Tell me if this is crazy. I want. I almost wish we had data on this. How many people, even after listening to this, is, you know, a good idea? Sit down. Have this conversation would actually do it because it is still so scary. You can have the tools, you can have everything. Because I'm trying to think back of how my husband or whoever discloses their loss of faith. It's like small snide comments over the course of, like a year until something comes to the head where it's like, will you give our kid a blessing?

Carah Burrell [02:05:52] And now it's like, now I need to tell you. It gets loud, but it gets loud, that saying, you know, like, all right, now that our child's about to get baptized, or like, we need to bless a baby, or somebody's asking for a blessing in the ward and you need to tell. And now you're suddenly fumbling for words. And now as a wife, I'm like, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. I'm getting it now. Now all of those snide comments are coming together and, like, I don't know what the right answer is because it's so difficult to have this conversation. It sounds so intense, but, like, what can you do to give people reassurance that, like, you should have this sooner, this conversation with, you know, a level five, with your spouse, your believing spouse. What can you do to give people the confidence to have this hard conversation?

John Dehlin [02:06:40] Margi?

Margi Dehlin [02:06:42] Oh, me?

John Dehlin [02:06:42] You want me to answer?

Carah Burrell [02:06:43] Do you have any answers? I don't know. It just seems like it's feels like a climbing mount kiln. Like, I'd rather just not and just wait till I have to, you know?

John Dehlin [02:06:52] Yeah, yeah. And maybe that's the right thing. Maybe trickling it out over time is the right way. Sometimes that can just lead to this feeling that you're always tearing the church down and being negative about it and growing resentment.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:08] Yeah, resentment can grow for the person who's doing that because they know they've got all this building up inside and they're not. And though for the spouse, because the spouse is like, what's with all the digs? Like, over time you can accommodate. Accommodate. But usually as we accommodate, we build in resentment, too. And blow. Eventually blow.

Carah Burrell [02:07:29] That's.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:29] So neither of those are super great. For the people, the phrase choose your

Carah Burrell [02:07:34] hard comes to mind. One of them is going to be hard. Yeah, I guess that's. I'm answering my own question.

John Dehlin [02:07:39] Yeah, yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:07:39] Like, things are going to get hard no matter what. Just choose which one that you want to invest in.

John Dehlin [02:07:44] Like, exactly. And with the less is more approach. And I'm not saying it's the one true approach, but I'm just going to make the argument with the less is more approach. Let's just say your Margi still is going to get as upset in the less is more approach as she did with the more is more approach. But isn't it better to just start with my relationship with the church is changing and I'm struggling with the church without introducing the added complexity of polygamy and polyandry and cult talk in the Book of Mormon. Because let's just say Margi, you're still going to have that charged emotional reaction. Isn't it better to keep it simple than adding two and three and four other layers of complexity on in the conversation that give all sorts of different avenues for fear, for anxiety and for insults and injury and explosion?

Margi Dehlin [02:08:37] A hundred percent. And I think the word overwhelm comes to mind that the more you kind of pile on during that conversation, the more you're apt to have a mind or, you know, someone's sort of psychology blown in the moment. What you did in the second one that I, I do feel like tends to work. That's why I didn't give a. A pretty strong reaction is you did a lot of calming. A lot of calming to the. And most people do respond to this is the work of John Gottman. It's called the like you can have a harsh startup which you did the first time and what happens when you start in a harsh way as opposed to what you did the second time.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:22] So there is science behind this. And I think most people do respond to being calmed. Not that they won't have uncomfortable feelings, but you're less likely to have that where you're both triggered and yelling at each other per se. So. But yeah, the choose your hard. What I like about the thing about the first approach where it's this steady drop is it tends to harm your relationship with yourself because on some level you're not saying what you. What is inside you that you really want to say, even if there's fear around it. I think we with people we love, we want to be known.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:01] So that starts to erode your relationship with yourself and then it also erodes the relationship with your partner. Because what's. What's. You gotta build. You've got an anger build and you now you've got a pattern of behavior over time developing that erodes the relationship and it actually breeds distrust. Because if I have a partner that's saying snide things about something I treasure or is important to me, I'm going to not trust them as much. I'm going to Be like, what's going on? Like, that's something that's. And it will erode over time. And so that's what we don't want with this. I do feel like it takes a lot of courage, but just like a wound, like, has to kind of be opened and have things kind of.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:46] It has to be cleansed to heal. Let's open it up. Let's get it to the point that we can actually get the stuff out and then move into sort of healing and, and kind of dealing with it. So, yeah, that's kind of my.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:01] But yeah, there's no avoiding pain and suffering on some level in this scenario. It's just whether you want to strategize to increase your chances of minimizing damage long term and increase the chances that you will have an intimate, shared, respectful evolution of a relationship.

John Dehlin [02:11:25] Love it.

Carah Burrell [02:11:27] Yep. Well said. Do you mind if I read a couple comments? This is a really good question by Tyler that asks, as a non Mormon, is it much more common for a husband to initiate these discussions? How does a woman navigate the patriarchal nature of many Mormon marriages? So if you are like a woman who loses her faith and you're coming out to your husband, this, this was a moment at thrive that I got chilled at. I can't remember who said it. Tell me if you remember, Margi, where somebody said it was during the panel about how many times. Maybe it was Donna Kelly, how many times in a Mormon marriage where you're in equal disagreement with your husband and because they have. The patriarchy discussion's over.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:05] Oh, I feel like it was Donna.

Carah Burrell [02:12:08] Did I say patriarchy? I meant to say priesthood, but both. Anyway. Does that sound familiar, though? Yeah. And everyone was just like, yup, you know, and like how many times where it's like, well, I'm sorry that you've lost your faith. I wonder how that, that women who lose their faith first in a marriage navigate that. I don't know the answer, but I think that's a really good thing to acknowledge that the way that, that the priesthood plays out in marriages, the power dynamic. Yeah. Like, you can't deny that men throughout Mormon history have said, we're doing this thing come hell or high water, because I have the priesthood.

Carah Burrell [02:12:40] I have a more direct line to God, whatever you want to call it. And we're going to keep raising our family this way. You're going to need to like, you know, put up with it. So I just, I don't know, maybe we can get into that another time. But I think that's a good thing to highlight.

John Dehlin [02:12:53] You know, I. It would be really cool to do like a, a large survey about whether on average, you know, what percentage of time it's the man, the Mormon man who loses his faith first versus the woman. It was always my impression that more often than not, it's the man who loses his testimony first. Then I did a mixed faith marriage retreat where we had 20 couples. Maybe it was 40, but it was exactly split in half. Where in half the relationships it was the woman who's the disbeliever, and in half it was the man. So that, that led me to believe that can very much be equal. And.

Carah Burrell [02:13:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:34] And yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:13:35] So I'm thinking isn't statistically that more women, like, side with progressive causes and movements and feminism and that men, Mormon men are traditionally a lot more conservative. So I can imagine on, along those lines, maybe they're kind of buckling down to like, the conservative beliefs of the church, while women are more interested in progressive values that lead them out of the church. Perhaps.

John Dehlin [02:13:55] Yeah. On average, in my experience, and this is just averages, men tend to be more, a little bit more validity Mormons than utility Mormons where they're like, wait, it's the history isn't what I thought. The truth claims, the archeology and the DNA isn't what I thought. Okay, I'm leaving. That's not to say that women can't leave for validity or truth claims reasons, but I think maybe men slightly more often leave for the truth claims types of reasons. And I would say that's also true that women maybe a little bit, on average more than men might leave because of the treatment of women, because of people of color, because of racism, because of the treatment of LGBT people.

John Dehlin [02:14:38] And I will add just the feelings of, like, the church isn't working for me. I'm tired, I'm worn out, the perfectionism is wearing me down. Yeah, I'm bored. Or I'm just like, I'm not feeling edified. Maybe a little bit more, on average women would leave for those sorts of reasons.

Carah Burrell [02:14:55] Yeah, I mean, I really fit in well. I really love, like the sex Mormon community and all the things we're talking about with thrive and stuff. So I was probably a utility Mormon at the time because as a woman in the church, that's where my friend circle is. That's where I'm edified. I'm not getting edified. Like, the utility is. There's no utility at that point. And that's when I started turning into what are the truth Claims even to begin with, you know, so women. Yeah, maybe I guess we're just relieve society and so many things you're given that community and if you're like, oh, what's wrong with me? Do I not fit in here? And you start. Wheels start turning. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:30] Thanks for that question.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:31] I will say. Can I just say one, like a couple observations. I have had some clients where, you know, the, the woman came, left before their husband, so the wife came out and left. And it's been really, really messy with the priesthood and patriarchy being part of it.

Carah Burrell [02:15:52] Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:53] And it's much like in more dramatic ways and where it spreads to other areas of the relationship. And let alone that you also see a bit of a dynamic as. Even if the husband follows, you can see as the woman becomes more empowered that there are these tensions that come up as they try to redefine roles with that that are, you know, they can be deeply, deeply. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:29] Problematic change in power dynamic and, and

Margi Dehlin [02:16:32] which can be much harder.

John Dehlin [02:16:34] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:34] In my experience, which is limited because I only see who I coach and who comes. So. But I see for men giving up power. Yeah, it can be very difficult.

Carah Burrell [02:16:46] Interesting.

John Dehlin [02:16:47] It's kind of undeniable that in patriarchies and the Mormon church and the Mormon families are patriarchal. Like literally they're patriarchal.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:55] It's the husband who presides. I mean, that's in the proclamation on the family. The husband presides and provides and the woman's job is to nurture the kids. And that's in the proclamation of the family. And. Yeah, and. And when a wife loses her husband, loses her faith first and is saying, I'm not down for this and now I'm going to start feeling empowered and learn about feminism and get my own authority. It means there's a zero sum game there.

John Dehlin [02:17:23] The husband is going to feel like he's losing power and authority. Now that doesn't have to mean their marriage gets worse and their relationship gets worse, you can lose power. And I would argue, husbands, that if you can trust the process, you will lose power and improve your marriage. Because when a wife is. Is more herself, more healthy, more happy, feeling stronger, she can have better mental health, better physical health, better emotional and even sexual intimacy can come about as a result of your wife becoming more empowered.

Carah Burrell [02:17:58] Right on.

John Dehlin [02:17:58] You agree?

Carah Burrell [02:17:59] Even though John is a man who said it, I could have said the exact same thing. No, you said the. You said it perfectly. And to that point, I just want to Add that Mormons sometimes I think can, I was saying earlier can be kind of surface level and not looking at the deeper things that are coming from, okay, my wife has a faith crisis.

Carah Burrell [02:18:16] She could be gaining all this self confidence and so on and so forth. But if all you're seeing is that she's not wearing her garments and now she's wearing a tank top and now you're gonna have like a little lizard brain. You're like, oh, other men are looking at her, she's gonna cheat on me. If you're looking at surface level things, you can get really frightened about your wife's faith crisis. I'm assuming like, and I was telling John yesterday at lunch that even the things that two years after me and Aaron's leaving the church, faith crisis, just me showing my body a tiny bit more than normal, like slowly acclimating myself to like a crop top, you know, your own body to my own body.

Carah Burrell [02:18:49] Like my husband's like, okay, I have to deal with this. I'm like having some emotions about this of like, yeah, isn't that crazy? Like we got married under the contract of like I would be covering these parts of my body that they're only for you and now that they're not and they're like on tick tock like, and I'm at thrive in like a crop top, like how you feeling about that? And he's like, oh, I have some like misogyny. I need to like you know, untangled angle. So if you have to have, I luckily can have that conversation with a non believing spouse. I cannot imagine how difficult that would be if you are not wearing your garments anymore as a non believing wife and your husband is still feeling like they have ownership or whatever over you.

Carah Burrell [02:19:22] I can't imagine how difficult that would be. So on that note, I'm just gonna go ahead and suggest that we have some type of panel. I wanna, I wanna, I wanna have more non believing like mixed faith marriage discussions on Mormon stories of how women untangle themselves from their husband presiding with patriarchy and priesthood and how women grow into themselves. Like John was saying, like that'd be a really cool discussion. So I hope we can continue that later.

John Dehlin [02:19:48] That's great.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:48] Yeah. One thing back to what you said is this idea of thinking about it like you need, you know, oftentimes we look at relationship like, okay, here's what I would say to the, to a priesthood holder, you know, patriarchy husband who has a woman coming into her own is like, this is an invitation for your relationship to actually become healthy because you can never build a healthy relationship of intimacy with an unhealthy dynamic or an unhealthy human. So it's like, I do think it's interesting because oftentimes, and it's part of this is the way we've been brought up, it's like, okay, well, you. I feel like I'm healthy and then I'm going to get with someone who's a little less healthy, but we're going to have a healthy relationship.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:38] Somehow. It's like it, it doesn't make, it doesn't work that way. We have to independently bring our own happiness, our own health, our own well being, our own purpose, you know, our own vitality. And we each have to bring that to the relationship. But our relationship can, can only be as healthy as we are as individuals, period. Full stop. It's not like coming together, we get to magically make health from unhealthy dynamics and unhealthy people.

Carah Burrell [02:21:09] Yeah. And can I add to that with this comment? I think it's perfect. Paige writes, I was, I was first to lose faith. It took a lot. I can't read. It took a long to walk. Time to walk, talk to my husband. Luckily, I have an amazing man and he knows I'm smart and a critical thinker. He followed me with no conflict. And so if you have the highest, like, degree of emotional intimacy is like, trust. In a marriage where I, like, we're acting like that never happens. But let's, let's also acknowledge that totally does that there are the rare couples and the rare people where the emotional intimacy in a marriage is still so good, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:21:46] Sure.

Carah Burrell [02:21:46] Where like, I'm coming to you with this problem. I'm being open, I'm honest. And the spouse is like, I trust you so, like, implicitly that I know that you would never make such a intense decision if it wasn't really serious. And I want to hear everything. Yes, that does happen, you know.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:03] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:22:04] So, like, that's really cool. And like, that's, that's a cool standard. So I don't want to act like it never happens because it does. And I've known friends who've had parents, Mormon parents in Orem, Utah, who their son sat their parents down, said, we've lost our faith as well as our spouses and the parents. First response was, I respect you and your brother so much. Tell me, what have you learned? And now they have to move out of Orem, Utah, because they're like a former bishop who lost a Smith. You Know, like, that does happen rarely. And I think that's really cool to acknowledge that, like, you can, you can have such good emotional intimacy with your. Your family members that they want to hear you out.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:37] But absolutely, absolutely you can. And ultimately everyone loses with patriarchy. Everyone loses with this idea of one person having more power than the other men, too. So think of it as an upgrade for everyone.

Carah Burrell [02:22:51] Upgrade for everyone. I love that.

John Dehlin [02:22:53] Yeah. And Paul even writes, Paul Hadlow writes, does anyone have to lose power? Can it be that the husband and wife could both become more powerful? I like that idea.

Carah Burrell [02:23:03] You won't see it that maybe in the church right away, but take a

John Dehlin [02:23:07] while to get there.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:07] Think of it as like the abundance model.

John Dehlin [02:23:10] Not a zero, something, not a lot back. Yeah, I, I have said before that a faith crisis doesn't so much ruin a marriage as it reveals a marriage. It basically shows you how. How grounded you guys are as best friends with unconditional love versus you're married because you both believe in the church.

Carah Burrell [02:23:28] That's great.

John Dehlin [02:23:29] And, you know, you guys have to figure that out. And you can still survive one way or the other, but it's certainly easier and smoother if you're best friends and unconditionally loving each other regardless of the church. So.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:42] And thinking about it, like, okay, here we. It's marriage number two or time for marriage number four.

John Dehlin [02:23:48] Number three.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:49] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:23:49] Right on.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:50] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:23:51] Yeah. Like we were talking about earlier with.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:52] Yep.

Carah Burrell [02:23:53] Leah's marriage contract and that you go through different cycles of marriages, and whether it's kids or you base your life on having a shared values around Mormonism or not. Like, it's really so cool that you can bond over a new set of values, even if you have to reevaluate them and even if it's hard. Like, there's so much beauty still.

John Dehlin [02:24:14] Yeah. I love it. Really quickly, as we kind of round out this episode, there's one thing where Margi in the. In the more is more role play we did. You asked me for my sources and what, what I, What I recommend doing in the less is more approach is not becoming the teacher of your loved one. In other words, every doubting Mormon's dream is to have all their loved ones say, what are you learning? Tell me what you're learning and where you're learning it from. How can I learn more? That's. That's the reaction we all desperately want and feel like we need it. Almost never comes.

Avoid Becoming Your Partner's Debate Opponent

John Dehlin [02:24:57] Believers almost never want to know anything about why you lost your faith or where you learned your information from. But I would just say even if they do, there's risk in answering those questions about what you've learned and where you've learned it from or, you know, providing detail. And the risks can be things like, number one, again, they ask you, you tell them, and then they still get upset. That's probably the most likely scenario, even if they ask for the information. And once you tell them, they can still get triggered and be upset. And so that's one of the risks. But then another risk is they can turn around and tell people that you were trying to get them to lose their faith.

John Dehlin [02:25:42] And I've seen this happen in wards, with bishops, with, with ward members, and in, in, you know, in family relationships that they ask. So you tell them all the things you've learned and all the reasons why you're doubting, then they go tell everybody else what they learned from you. And then all of a sudden, you're being, you're being blamed for trying to take their faith away when they asked to begin with. And so, and then the third thing is, is that, especially if it's your significant other, right, Even if it's your spouse, you don't want to be married to your teacher. That's a power differential.

John Dehlin [02:26:15] You want to be married to your lover, you want to be married to your best friend and your lover, not their parent or their teacher, you know, teacher, you don't want your partner to be your parent. You don't want to be a child, like, figure to your partner either. And so just letting them have their own journey and saying, I don't want to give you any of that information.

John Dehlin [02:26:35] If you beg and beg and beg over weeks and months, maybe I'll share with you the book that I read or the PDF that I read or some podcast episodes, but I want you to go on your own journey, and if you end up learning this stuff and, or changing your belief, I want that to be fully your decision. And I don't want ever to be the, the one in the position of, of, of having taken your faith away from you. I want that to be your own walk in your own journey. And that's why I just, in the, in the less is more approach, I generally discourage people from, from taking the bait to become the teacher of the believer who might be asking questions. Margi, what's your reaction to that? And then, Carah, I'm curious if you have a reaction as well. Anything you want to.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:24] I wholeheartedly agree and support that. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:27:27] Carol, what do you think of when I, when you Hear me say that

Carah Burrell [02:27:30] I have kind of a weird answer, so forgive me.

John Dehlin [02:27:33] There's no one right answer.

Carah Burrell [02:27:34] Okay. So the first thing that comes to my mind is, well, I don't want to discredit like that patriarchy is real and all of those things within marriage. I also want to add that, like the way that like sexual shame culture and stuff, I think it's also plays into not just women's psyche, but men's psyche. And I think the power dynamic goes well in Mormon marriages. We talked about this in Drew Manning's episode that was my first day working here. And we talked about from the very get go show how unhealthy it is to set up a marriage where one's a porn addict and one's the one who's always checking on them or one's in a faith crisis and one's the person like always sending them enzyme things.

Carah Burrell [02:28:17] Just, I just see this, this through line, this, this repeated thing in a lot of unhealthy Mormon marriages where, oh, we have to get to this standard at all times. Like, oh, you have to get off of porn and we have to get this. We have to always be showing up on time. Like, like they have just mismatched, mismatched ideas of what the high standard should be in the household. And John, you're kind of describing like a, like let me be your teacher and how, how problematic that can be because now the standard is get to where I'm at as if that's always the right standard. And maybe that's not like, let's get, let's give up the idea of where I'm at as an atheist is where you should be.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:58] That's so good.

Carah Burrell [02:28:59] So this is the nuance hoe really coming through. So like I say this all the time in live streams when people ask me what they should do is like, I don't know your mental health. I don't know what pieces of Mormonism you're holding on to that keep you here, that keep you alive, that keep you able to function. And I don't want to be the cause of you giving that up. So for whatever it is within a Mormon marriage, there's an. Whatever the imbalance is, is like, you need to get to this spot because I said so, because the prophet said so, or because I have a whole like gaggle of ex Mormons over here and we know that we're right.

Carah Burrell [02:29:34] You need to get to the other side, the ex Mormon side. I just think we should give up the superiority of arrive at where I want you to arrive at. That's my opinion on it.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:43] Ooh, that's so good. I feel like, too, that how often do we pick up the authority? It's like, well, we don't want that, but. But now I'll be the authority for you. Or we have. And I have a really great friend that works as a therapist in Logan who works with a lot of LDs, former LDs.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:01] She's really worked extensively in the population who was telling me. What I've noticed about the culture overall, Mormons, ex Mormons, is they struggle with similar things. Mormons struggle with having all these expectations and judgments. And they have this way of, you know, the world should look and things should be. But so do ex Mormons. Ex Mormons have a really, like, firm idea of what an ex Mormon life should look like and what it. What it should feel and what you should do and how you should act. Right. And she was saying the opposite. If you. If people want to move beyond kind of Mormonism, you can't move into, like, another paradigm, just another, you know, structure of the.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:48] The. The way that you actually move out of it is choice. It. It's brilliant from where we come from, high control, being told, everything's external. It's. It's like just let everyone choose. And if you can model that on some level, having patience and showing trust and generosity in this process with another human, that may move at a different speed than you, that may have to sort through and have a different process than you. Right. But that your concern is that that person be able to choose that. That person be able to have their own process. That's just, to me, a beautiful thing.

John Dehlin [02:31:28] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:31:29] Yeah. Well said. And I think we're kind of to have a summary of, like, a lot of the last three episodes we've done, we've been talking about the backfire effect. And then if you actually even want somebody to get to where you're at, you do need to make them feel safe. And you're just describing a level of safety right now, I think.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:45] And maybe be honest about your agenda. Right. Be honest about how your needs may be making this really murky for your partner. Right. Because you feel lonely or because now you're feeling in a new space and want to be joined.

John Dehlin [02:31:58] Yeah. To kind of summarize what I'm hearing from you guys is, number one, differentiation. We used to think of it as sameness is good. We all need to believe and think and do the same things, and that's good. And a new mindset is differentiation is Good. We can share the same values, some of the same core values. But, like, if you think certain things differently than me, if you believe certain things differently than me, if you behave certain ways differently than me, there's actually a strength in that. It's diversity. It's individuality. There can be a strength to that. And so I really like this idea of individuation and. And choice. Choice. And what is it? I just said the word. Not differentiation. Differentiation, right. Is that what I said? Help me out.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:48] You did say differentiation.

John Dehlin [02:32:49] Yeah. Yeah, that differentiation can be good.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:53] And then oxygen.

John Dehlin [02:32:54] Yeah, it can be oxygen to the relationship because different people can bring different values to the relationship. But, Carah, I also love what you said as well. You shouldn't necessarily want them to get to the same place as you. But ironically.

Carah Burrell [02:33:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:10] You maximize the probability that someone is going to feel safe enough to start learning the information, which will then give them the best chance of eventually arriving at some of the same conclusions that you've arrived at by empowering them to take their own journey.

Carah Burrell [02:33:32] Yeah. By saying that I. Right now, like, if this was a real conversation between, like, a believing dad and me, that's exactly what I would say is like, I. I want to give you this space. I want to. I want you to be in the driver's seat of your life. Because no matter how much I want to, like, strangle you and be like, no, but you believe these dumb things, that, that. That air of superiority over somebody else is what I was trying to say. Yeah, that air of like. But you just. You're. You're so dumb. You don't know what I know. If only you would just listen to me.

Carah Burrell [02:34:04] Yeah. Like, release that. It is just not conducive to what you're actually trying to achieve. A good relationship. Even if you wanted them to leave. Because when people feel that of like. I. I'm sorry to use the porn example again, but I, I. One of the most frustrating things to me that I think is toxic in so many Mormon marriages is them, starting with, my husband's a porn addict. And now we're constantly having, like, this constant wrestle of, like, policing and sexuality. Policing, sexuality, all of that stuff. Just like, I just. You have to do what I want you to do. And you just constantly feel like there's, like, a mom instead of husband.

Carah Burrell [02:34:36] Wife. It's like mom and a son that's always in trouble, that's always getting, like, suspended from school. I just. I think that's such a toxic environment for anyone, really. Relationship, husband, wife, mother, son. Daughter. All of that stuff that's just like this ickiness that I think comes out of a place of ego that is just not conducive to her, like, human flourishing. That's kind of just. I'm trying to take, like, a little bit more of, like a. A wider scope to, like, what do we really want to achieve here? Like, let's. Let's zoom out a little bit and think more intentionally about why we're doing what we're doing. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:08] Why we're together. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:11] And if. And if I had to just. I can make. There.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:13] There.

John Dehlin [02:35:13] It's rare that I can kind of make guarantees in this business, because the truth is, whoever you're disclosing to, you can't control where they're going to end up. They're ultimately gonna have to go on their journey. But there are two things I can guarantee. The extent to which you try and force them to think and feel and to arrive at the conclusions you've arrived at. The degree to which you try and force them, you actually are going to strengthen them going in the opposite direction and slow down the. And reduce the probability that they'll ever arrive at the place where. Where you've arrived. So that's, number one.

John Dehlin [02:35:49] Resistance creates. You know, control creates resistance. And if you try and control them or force them, you. I guarantee you, you will create that resistance. And then the second thing is for the people whose spouses have eventually come around, it's been when they've backed off. So I can guarantee you, you increase your probability of eventually being on the same relative page with your partner or spouse or loved one if you back off.

Letting Partners and Children Have Their Own Journey

John Dehlin [02:36:17] Let them feel unconditionally loved and then let them have their own journey. I can guarantee you you're going to increase your probability of eventually arriving on the same page. I can guarantee those two things.

Carah Burrell [02:36:29] Yeah. Because you're taking. It sounds like what you're saying is like you're taking your foot off the gas pedal of like. Of authority and control. Just take your foot off that gas pedal and you'll find that, like, you're just. You're able to fly downhill now.

John Dehlin [02:36:42] Yeah. To go with your metaphor, give them the steering wheel.

Carah Burrell [02:36:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:45] Give them control of their own gas pedal. Let them drive their own car and just let them feel like you're. You're their coach cheering them on wherever they go. Much better than, like, trying to take over their steering wheel, take over their gas pedal and then just make them want to jump out of the car.

Carah Burrell [02:37:00] Yeah. Yeah. Now can I ask the million dollar question, though. This is the question that I guarantee is running through everyone's minds right now. Is. All right, so we talked about earlier about, well, what if you have a believing spouse and they are taking their kids to church where they are learning harmful, like LGBTQ messaging or they're learning harmful things about, like, sexism or racism or that just generally speaking, you don't, you, you're angry that your, your family or your parents or whoever are giving money to something that isn't true, and they need to know the truth because there are harmful messages in this. So how do you, how, how do we bring this discussion together of like, well, there's actual harm that you're teaching your kids here while at the same time, all right, fine, go to church.

Carah Burrell [02:37:43] I'm, I'm gonna let you be in the driver's seat of your own life. How do you best negotiate those two really heavy problems that we're trying to. That's the, that seems like the million dollar elephant in the room question to me.

John Dehlin [02:37:53] And I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna do this intentionally. I think we should have that be another episode because I, I, I, I think that's its own episode. And Part four, maybe with a different title, because that's slightly different than the Disclosure piece. Yeah, but it's, but it's. What comes next?

Carah Burrell [02:38:12] What comes.

John Dehlin [02:38:13] So let's write this down as, as a next major topic that we explore.

Carah Burrell [02:38:18] Yeah, it's, it is just, it feels like the million dollar question, how do we go in with relationship? Because there are so many people. I've heard you guys, I'm sure have, too. People said, because my family's in the church, because they support the church and because I'm gay or I have a child that's gay, or a million other different things. I won't have a relationship with my parents because they support the church. And that's its own topic that we have to probably go into.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:39] And that's valid.

Carah Burrell [02:38:40] Yeah, Yeah. I don't want to invalidate any of that. If that's what's best for your mental health. And you cannot look your parents in the eye and actually act like everything's okay. Like, hi, you know. Oh. When it's like, I know deep down that you, like, hate everything I stand for and I hate everything you stand for.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:54] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:38:54] Like, that's its own, like, you know, toxic brew that we have to figure out.

John Dehlin [02:38:58] So we will do how to navigate mixed faith parenting and how to navigate mixed faith relationships. We will do that. Let's write that down. Carah.

Carah Burrell [02:39:07] We promise that with an emphasis on like, oh, and like, no.

John Dehlin [02:39:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:13] Should we, should we end with the acceptance piece? Okay, great.

John Dehlin [02:39:17] Yeah. So there's two pieces we want to end with. So we've now kind of laid out for you in three episodes our best advice for disclosing to a believing family or friend member. We want to add end with kind of two reminders. One is boundaries. And so we're not going to go into boundaries today, but you will likely have your loved one want to violate your boundaries, whether it's by getting angry at you, insulting you, trying to control you, asking you questions you don't want to answer, trying to get involved in your marriage, trying to involve, get involved with your kids, ward members, trying to bring you back to church, bishops, you know, potentially calling a disciplinary council, believing Mormons.

Accepting Messiness and Seeking Support

John Dehlin [02:40:02] There are a thousand ways they can and probably will try and violate your boundaries. And so you, you, we need to have a follow up discussion about healthy boundaries. That can be its own episode. But just be prepared to have to boundary people that won't respect your boundaries. And frankly, in Mormonism we're almost groomed to, to not have boundaries, to not believe it's okay to have boundaries and not to enforce boundaries on other people. You're smiling, Carah.

Carah Burrell [02:40:35] I had this conversation with my mom yesterday. I'm really taking in the things that I learn here and like putting it into play with my mom. I literally had this conversation with her yesterday because she wants to talk to me about all of these book of number and evidence things and she wants me to read stuff. And I was like, just so you know that if you want this conversation to happen and you want me to talk about truth claims, I want you to be prepared that I'm going to respond to them. And that might make you upset, but I, I, I don't want to read this book.

Carah Burrell [02:40:58] I don't want to enter this conversation if it's going to be upsetting to you. And I just want, I explained, literally explained, like conversational consent. Like, just so you know, like in Mormonism, we're kind of groomed. I even said that to her yesterday, like to answer questions from Bishop. She, and she agreed with me. She's like, I was like, I don't want to have conversations that are going to be upsetting to each of us, like either of us.

John Dehlin [02:41:18] So I just, and honestly, even if your mom says, yeah, I want to have the conversation, sometimes you are going to have to be the wiser.

Carah Burrell [02:41:26] Right.

John Dehlin [02:41:27] And just Say I know this isn't going to go anywhere and then put up the boundary.

Carah Burrell [02:41:30] Yeah, like sometimes that's required. Yeah. Reading the body language, reading the signals that like she. Yeah. When Mormons, they, they're like, oh, but I'm so right. I want to get into this with you and be like, ah, this isn't quite fruitful.

John Dehlin [02:41:41] It's not going to be good for us.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:42] Or even you start it and then in the middle you notice it going awry. And then I notice you're getting a

Carah Burrell [02:41:47] little bit emotional right now.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:48] We can.

Carah Burrell [02:41:50] It's it. These are heavy topics when you disagree on truth claims and what is actually a valid historical source. So, yeah, yeah, there's definitely heat to the element. But I love that just yesterday I was able to. I do boundarying stuff. Did I tell you this? I told Margi this at Thrive though. You know, my mom said to me though what she said I sounded so scripted and I did, but I sounded in my voice and she's like, she's like, Carah, you sound really scripted right now. And I was like, oh, I forgot. I can't have, I can't do a lot of the implicit implementing this stuff because my parents know me too well and I was like, oh, I don't talk like that, do I? So I gotta be more clever with how I implement this stuff.

John Dehlin [02:42:28] Yeah. And, and Margi, let's do an episode on boundaries. Because I just think. And you, you've got a lot of thoughts and expertise about boundaries. So we'll do, we'll do an episode on boundaries. But it's an important part of this disclosure. True.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:40] It's a huge part for sure.

John Dehlin [02:42:42] Yeah. And then Marg, you want, do you want to make a final point about acceptance? We've, we've talked about that.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:47] Yeah. Just a final point around this idea of accept that it's messy, accept that you can do all the right things and things can still end up feeling painful, feeling really uncomfortable and where you experience a lot of loss.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:05] So there is plenty of acceptance. I feel like to, to be practiced here. And also I'm gonna pair the acceptance of kind of reality and what is and kind of the mess of it to be seek support. So seek support amidst like whether that's, you know, a walk every day with a close friend, whether that's a therapist, whether that's a coach. You deserve support. Support is something that you should feel. It's like a form of self love and showing up for yourself. And this is definitely one of the areas where I think Support can be, can make all the difference. And then my last thing would be celebrate.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:53] Celebrate your wins. Don't let other people's reactions steal from you. Those moments of your growth, those moments of you moving into your own right, coming into your own, advocating for yourself, differentiating from relationships that have had strong, a strong hold over you for years and decades. So that's kind of my pairing. Accept that it's messy. Accept that it hurts sometimes. Accept that there's loss. Seek support where you, where you need it, you deserve it, something you deserve. And then celebrate your wins.

John Dehlin [02:44:27] I love it. And I'll just say get a therapist or a coach. We've got great therapists and coaches now in the post Mormon space, whether it's Natasha Helfer, Margi, Leah Young, the people at Symmetry Solutions. There's so many, you know, there's so many good therapists and coaches out there. Julie diazevedo Hanks so many good people.

John Dehlin [02:44:47] So get a coach or a therapist to help you through this disclosure process. It can really be helpful. And I'm just going to end as I, as I began. If you are struggling with your faith crisis, with believing family and friends, parenting. If you're struggling with how to disclose we are having a retreat just in a couple weeks. October 15th, 16th and 17th. It's it's me, Natasha Helfer and Margi for two and a half days in Provo Orem area.

John Dehlin [02:45:20] It's a faith transition retreat and you can go to Mormon Faith crisis. No sorry thrivebeyondreligion.com events and you can click on the link to sign up for this retreat. There are still a few spaces left. People have told us for years and years and years this has saved their marriage, it saved their lives, it saved their family relationships. People make all sorts of mistakes and then when they learn this information they say I wish I would have learned this information earlier. Well, you have a chance to so you can come to the Thrive center in Provo orem area again October 15th, 16th and 17th. Me, Margi and Natasha for two and a half days will be there.

John Dehlin [02:46:02] You'll, you'll make new friends, you'll create new community. You'll get direct hands on one on one or group one on group support and it can be really healing for you. So I just want to make sure and make that shout out and then of course don't forget to register for Thrive Day, November 14, 2021. It's going to be amazing time. We Hope to have 2,000 people in the Salt palace and care is Going to be there, Margi. Lots of other people. Don't forget to sign up for Thrive. That's our, that's the end of today's what we got. Margi, thanks for joining us for the series.

Final Reflections and Farewell

Margi Dehlin [02:46:39] Yeah, thank everyone for joining us too.

John Dehlin [02:46:42] And if you really value Margi and Natasha and others coming on in this series for the gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis, this sort of coaching help, we need you to support it. So please go to mormonfaithcrisis.com click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor and those donations will be able to help us to keep bringing Margi back, to bring Natasha on, to bring other therapists and coaches on. We want to have healing and growth content as a part of the Mormon stories podcast, Facebook feed and YouTube feed and, and you know, all the feeds. And so we need your support if you want to see this type of content. Continue, please donate at. Become a monthly donor@mormonfaithcrisis.com and that will allow us to keep it going. Any final words, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [02:47:34] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [02:47:35] Okay. Well, you're lovely. It's great to have you. Thanks for sharing your wisdom with my audience. I know they love and appreciate you.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:42] Absolutely. And thanks to Carah and you and the audience. I really appreciate everyone showing up and sharing this with us. So.

John Dehlin [02:47:51] Yeah. And Carah, it's so great to have you moderating the chats, providing input and feedback and even sharing your wisdom with everybody. Thank you so much.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:59] Amazing wisdom.

Carah Burrell [02:48:00] I'm working on it. Working on some wisdom just two years post faith Crisis. But I love, I just love this job. I love having these conversations. This feels like the most important things that are happening in the world sometimes happen in this room where it just feels like these are the conversations that people are really needing. And the comments show that too. Like people are really appreciative that we're having these conversations, giving people tools, role plays, just good motivation to get out there and do the hard work on themselves and in their relationship. So, yeah, thanks everyone for watching. It's been really fun.

John Dehlin [02:48:29] Well, Carrie, you've helped up our game. You've helped re energize Mormon stories and people love having you here. So thank you.

Carah Burrell [02:48:38] Yep, thanks for having me.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:39] We see you.

John Dehlin [02:48:40] And Margi, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much for being here.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:43] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:48:45] And this ends our series on, you know, disclosing to believing family and friends about a faith crisis. It's a three parter. We're going to put it together in one single post. Kind of a Part A, B and C. We're going to put it all in one post. Please share this with any. If you have any family or friends or loved ones that are petrified or scared to disclose to believing family or friends, please share this, this episode with other people. That's a great way you can support us in addition to your financial support. Just sharing the links. Because if. If there's people that need this stuff and they never pay a dollar, but we help them improve, save their marriage, improve their relationships, keep families divided.

John Dehlin [02:49:25] That's the overall mission of the Open Stories Foundation. That's why we all get up and do Mormon Stories and we want that to be the outcome. So please share this with everybody. Thanks for your support. Give us your comments on the blog post or here on YouTube or on Facebook. We read every comment. We'll. We'll cherish it. We'll learn from it. Please give us your comments. Email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com if you have any feedback. And again, if you donate to Mormon Stories, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:49:52] Less than 1. I have a thousand. Do donate. That's okay if you can't donate. We still want you to benefit from the programming, but if you don't donate and you can, and you want to see it continue, please just become a monthly donor@mormonstories.org click on the Donate button. This will pay for Carah. It pays for Gerardo, it pays for Brooklyn, it pays for me. It pays for these facilities, Internet costs, cameras, lighting, all that stuff costs money. And we need your support. So please become a monthly donor and we'll keep doing this stuff for as long as we can. Thanks to everyone. Thanks to everyone who commented on Facebook and YouTube. Your comments make this more valuable. So thank you so much. All right. Carah, you're awesome.

Carah Burrell [02:50:34] Yeah. Margi, the delins. It's always nice to hang out with the delins for an afternoon.

John Dehlin [02:50:39] And if you're. If you're loving this live stream and you're around Today, tonight at 7 o', clock, we're having John Larry Larsen back. We're going to be doing a live stream with John Larsen about the. The Willie and Martin Co. Handcart companies. And it's gonna be a treat because John Larsen's always a treat.

Carah Burrell [02:50:59] It's gonna be really fun.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:59] And you guys just don't quit.

John Dehlin [02:51:01] We don't quit.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:02] You go into the night, Carah.

John Dehlin [02:51:04] Carah's basically a slave driver. Like, I'm like, we need less content. And care's like, we need more content.

Carah Burrell [02:51:09] Yeah, that's. That's how it is. Definitely. That's the dynamic for sure.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:13] Margi's not believing this is fun to observe right here.

Carah Burrell [02:51:17] What's going on? My girls are always asking me, when's Opposite Day? Today's opposite day, girls. October 5th.

John Dehlin [02:51:24] All right, everyone, take care. We'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Bye, everybody. Bye.

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