Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's March 26th. Today we're doing something that's a little bit unusual. I did a three hour podcast in the morning, kind of a monologue celebrating the Mormon Church's six recent articles in the Liahona about how to support mixed faith marriages. And honestly, there's this theme that we have been covering on Mormon Stories podcast recently, also including the Patrick Mason Fireside that we released a week or two ago. Because what we're noticing is that the Mormon Church is transforming. It's changing at light speed. If you compare it to the Church's pace of change historically, we're seeing in 2021 a historic velocity of change within Mormonism. And most of it is that the leadership under the leadership of President Russell M. Nelson over the past few years. And it's just kind of mind blowing. And so I've been thinking about how in the world can we talk about and think about and analyze and try to understand and even predict the changes that we have been seeing and that we're going to see in the future as an episode? And so today we have what I think is a really important Mormon Stories Podcast episode. It's one that's been in the works for months. Uh, and it's a friendly face that we will be that we are bringing back to Mormon Stories Podcast. And it's definitely one of the top dozen or, you know, few dozen dozen or so episodes of all time on Mormon Stories Podcast. We are bringing back the Roger Hendricks to Mormon Stories podcast. Hey, Roger, welcome back.

Roger Hendrix's Background and Beliefs

Roger Hendrix [00:01:44] Glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] Now, I hope that our listeners obviously know who you are because your episode is one of the most. Well, it's two things. It's one of the longest single interviews I ever did. I think we exceeded 13 hours in our interview and it was worth every hour. But it's also one of the most watched interviews of all time. And I believe that's true both because, Roger, I think you're a fascinating interviewee. You have a ton of really important and relevant experience and your story was fascinating. You're a good storyteller. You're smart, you're wise. Stop me if you'd like, with all the compliments. Feel free.

Roger Hendrix [00:02:21] No, I love it.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] Keep them coming. But. But also, I think it's important to understand Roger's background. You know, we have had Hans Mattson on Mormon Stories podcast, who was an area authority in Sweden. We have had many bishops and former bishops or stake presidents on Mormon Stories Podcast and Relief Society presidents and Stake Relief Society leaders. And, you know, we've tried to have as many kind of like, really orthodox, really devout Mormons on Mormon Stories podcast just to show and to dispel that stereotype that the people who, who are struggling with the church and or leaving the church aren't just people who are weak or wanted to sin or never believed in the first place. But in many instances, it really is, as Marlon Jensen stated, the best and the brightest that are struggling with the church, transforming their belief and, or leaving the church. And so, you know, we've had a lot of people on that kind of fit that mold. But if we're gonna talk about the most senior, most experienced interviewee we've ever had on Mormon Stories podcast, I do think Roger takes that cake. And what I mean by that is Roger not only served as a bishop, he served in a stake presidency. He was a mission president in the Chile Santiago South Mission. He served as a CES director in Southern California for the church, including, I believe, an institute director at University of Southern California. Is that right, Roger?

Roger Hendrix [00:03:43] Right.

John Dehlin [00:03:44] He. He rubbed shoulders with Paul H. Dunn, with Jeffrey R. Holland, with Henry Eyring, with all the apostles and eventual prophets that kind made their way through the church education system or that led the church education system. And there's more. After he retired from ces, in terms of church leadership, he ultimately, after his mission was kind of vetted for general authority, I think, or area authority, I think he made it kind of clear that that wasn't kind of what he was going for in his golden years, we'll call it. But the church didn't want to let him and his expertise go. And so they called him to be a member of the board of trustees for the Deseret Trust Company. And he was called by Gordon B. Hinckley to the Deseret Trust Company, and he served there for 18 years. And I think it's interesting to note we've talked a little bit about the Ensign Peak, which is this nonprofit that the church started to manage the church's cash and investments. And it's been in the news because it now holds over like $130 billion in cash and bonds and stock. And of course, James Huntsman recently is suing the church for misrepresenting what it's with its money because of the reports from David Nielsen that the only way that the church has spent that money that we know of so far in its hundred, multi, hundred billion dollar investment portfolio is to bail out an insurance Company that was failing and to pay for the City Creek Mall. Like, you know, Roger joined onto the Deseret Trust Company along with the guy that ends up leading the Ensign Peak. Is that right, Roger? Roger Clark, yeah. So you guys, you were rubbing shoulders with Roger Clark. And just to give people kind of a background of what you know. And I want to just say go back and, you know, pause this episode. If you want to learn a lot of really cool stuff, pause this episode. Go back and watch my interview with Roger. It's a top hit on Mormon Stories podcast. It's worth your time. And we go in deeply to all of his time serving in the church, including his time working for the Deseret Trust Company. And, you know, we don't want to rehash all that here, but just for those who want to understand why that is such a strategic and important position for the church, can you just talk quickly about what that position is and what types of decisions and discussions you would have been a part of during that time?

Ensign Peak Advisors and Church Finances

Roger Hendrix [00:06:05] Deseret Trust Company receives investment money from members of the church and those who aren't members of the church and the church, not the church, but the churches company, Deseret Trust Co. Invest that money. And when a person passes away,

John Dehlin [00:06:36] what

Roger Hendrix [00:06:36] is left in their trust goes back to the church. And so N. Eldon Tanner started it, who was a member of the first presidency of the church, actually got the church on a sound financial footing when he was called in from Canada, where he served as a very successful businessman and a top legislator. And he started Deseret Trust Company and the members of the church came and have invested their money in. They have received great returns on their money. It's a trusted company. And now the fellow who basically started Ensign Peak Advisors, Roger Clark, was called to be on the board. If you're called to be on the board or as a trustee, you're not an employee. You are a person who oversees the employees and the investments. And for 16 years, I served as the chairman of the audit committee where if any fraud took place, we were the first ones to know about it and take steps to correct those problems. And so it has billions of dollars in its portfolio, but that's not what Ensign Peak Advisors was. Ensign Peak Advisors, according to the Washington Post, has 13 separate entities into which they pour a portion of the tithing money. And it has grown to. Well, now it's probably somewhere close to $130 billion. And so was I privy to that? Well, at least I sat next to the guy who started it. And did all the investing and they invested. In fact, they invested Deseret trust money. So there was a close relationship, yet there's a, there's an arm length relationship. So it's important. I, I had a view of church finances and how the church worked at the highest level with its money. And I'm ready to answer any questions that might come my way on that one.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Love it. Okay.

Roger Hendrix [00:09:33] So.

John Dehlin [00:09:35] But I also get the sense that you, you got to be a part of conversations about the church and its strategy and I'll just say its product or its brand or the types of concerns that the church would be having about its reputation, about movements within the church, within the church, and how the church kind of what it fears, you know, what it, how it measures its success, and then how it talks about and reacts to potential threats, business threats, corporate threats, market threats. I just get the sense that you were plugged into the kind of C level executive thinking at the highest levels of the church. Is that fair to say?

Roger Hendrix [00:10:18] I was at the highest level of Deseret Trust Company. And by virtue of being a part of that, I was able to see the workings of the church at the highest levels. I mean, after all, who got the chance to be called by Gordon B. Hinckley and told what my assignment was? And I remember when he called me, he said, I want you to be a trustee on the Deseret Trust Company. And I said, well, I've never heard of that. President Hinckley, what is that? He says, well, Roger, it's a trust company. And so he just gave me the name and.

John Dehlin [00:11:06] Wow.

Roger Hendrix [00:11:06] I didn't actually know how big that was. And how, if you stay tuned in, you became sensitive to the workings of the church, to the Presiding Bishopric, to the First Presidency, and not so much with the quorum of the 12. We can talk about that. Because companies are not run by the 12. They, they answer to the Presiding Bishopric and ultimately to the First Presidency. We can talk about that later. And so I had my share of talking with them, hearing what they. They. The counsel they gave us and what was important to them. And I felt like I contributed to that.

John Dehlin [00:12:00] Yeah. Okay, so that. Thank you for helping me with that kind of partial introduction. I just wanted to make sure people understood, you know, who we're interviewing in terms of church service. But what's most important today is, and I kind of talked about this in our introduction, the church is a corporation. It is the corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And it is a multi Hundred billion dollar organization. If it were, you know, if it were put next to corporations like commercial corporations, it would be in the Fortune 500, probably in the Fortune 50 for the entire, you know, world. Am I right?

Roger Hendrix [00:12:44] Definitely Fortune 500, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:48] And so the church really is in many ways a business. You can talk about the ecclesiastical stuff, and I'm not trying to detract from that or minimize that or take it away, but it's a corporation and it has to often act and think like a business. And it's a multi hundred dollar billion organization corporation at this point. And so, you know, we all know that the church is hemorrhaging, that the church is in terms of membership, that the church is losing people in droves. You know, the Pew foundation is now telling us that Christianity in general in the United States is in decline, but Mormonism is very much, you know, this church is also very much in decline in the sense that over half now of all Mormons raised Mormon in the United States have left the church and no longer identify as Mormons. We know that the activity levels of, you know, the church boasts 16 plus million members worldwide. Most of the people I talk to estimate that it's really somewhere between 2 and 3 million active Mormons in the world. So we're talking about, you know, a quarter of, of, of the 16 million actually are active and identify as Mormons at this point. And the church is literally in decline. If it weren't for the birth rate in the United States and the kind of over inflated missionary numbers of these high attrition converts from Africa and from, you know, the developing world, the church would literally be in decline. And demographers are saying within 10 or 20 years, as our birth rate declines and as the defections kind of accelerate, we will be a shrinking church even in terms of active membership within the next 10 to 20 years. So given that the church is really struggling, what we see is that Thomas S. Monson, you know, we know that he suffered from dementia, from cognitive decline. There were many years where kind of things kind of really a lot wasn't happening. And then all of a sudden Russell M. Nelson comes on and you see this flurry of changes. And so what we're going to be talking about today is we're going to be analyzing the church from a corporate perspective in terms of product, in terms of marketing strategy, in terms of overall strategy. And we're going to be, you know, Roger is going to be kind of talking about the future of Mormonism and his thoughts on where we're going It's a really important discuss now. Why is Roger, just because he had a lot of church service, why is Roger in any way the guy to do that? Well, what I haven't told you yet is that Roger left CES and for, I would say 35 years had a second career in his life as a management consultant. And as a management consultant, his job was to help struggling companies turn things around and create, grow and move in a positive direction. So he built a very, very successful career as a management consultant. He did a syndicated daily radio commentary out of West Hollywood on social, political and economic trends for nine years. He won five awards for the content over that time. The only reason he stopped that syndicated radio show was to serve a mission in Chile. He's the author of many books. Four of them I'll mention here. One's called Bend, Create and Plan youn Future, which is all about business strategy and changing for the future. He wrote a book called Choosing the the Future of Religion in American Public Life, co authored with Fred Geddes, who I've met, who I believe is a faculty professor at BYU Law School. The Leverage Point, a novel written with Gerald Lund, well known Mormon author Gerald Lund. It's a mystery about the Middle East. And the fourth is the Idea Economy. Why your ideas will have to create. Why your ideas will have to create. Personal wealth and hope in an Age of Uncertainty, which is co authored by Rob Brazell. And so Roger spent a huge part of his life thinking about corporate strategy, thinking about product development, thinking about marketing and helping businesses turn around and be successful. So I really can't think of somebody who's got this one, two punch of all of this experience ecclesiastically, strategically within the church and who's done more thinking about turning corporations around and helping them be successful. So that's why we have Roger on Today. This, you know, buckle in. This is going to be a multi hour, epic in depth conversation, but I'm super excited for it. And Roger, what did I miss in my introduction?

Roger Hendrix [00:17:33] We were going to talk about the, the one thing, the one conflict you and I had on the last interviews that has branded me in the world. And you said we'd talk about that for a minute.

John Dehlin [00:17:53] Do you want to start there or end there?

Roger Hendrix [00:17:55] We'll start there.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] Okay, so what did you, what did you not like about the way. So I, I'll just give my, my overview. I named at least one of your episodes, kind of something like Roger Hendricks, you know, a former mission president, loses his faith. And I did that because I felt like it's always hard to do a headline to try and help people understand in eight or 12 words what they're watching. And of course, when high level people leave the church, number one, Mormons pay attention to that and the brethren care about that and respond to it. So it was an attempt to try and make sure people understood the importance in the level of the interview and why it was important. However, from the very moment I did that, you took umbrage at how I characterized that and you asked me to think about other ways that I could characterize it. And frankly, you felt mischaracterized. So tell us how you would want to be branded and what you wish I would have said and how you would like people to think of it.

Roger Hendrix [00:18:58] Yeah. The brand that really stuck with me, for better or for worse, with Friend and Foe, was that I had lost my testimony. And in the church, those are powerful words. And words are what guide us most of what we do in life. What humans do is we use words to get by in life, to create things, etc. And so that really stuck on me and people who picked up on different parts of the interview I did with you to write articles in that used that label of here's this guy in the church who lost his testimony. Now, I took a position of conscience on LGBT instead. I was taking a sabbatical, stepping back, because I was bothered enough about the issue that it drove me to take a position of stepping back. But you also asked me questions about do I believe there is a God up there sitting on the throne? This is one that people really commented on. And I said, no, I believe that we created God and it works for us. Humans have needs, and one of the biggest needs is to have God in your life. And we create it. Joseph Smith created a very powerful God's story. And so I would have preferred to say Roger's a guy who hasn't lost anything. Goodness, no. But I have evolved and I have taken a position that has been controversial in some circles of active members of the church. And so that's all I have to say about that. I'm, I'm, I'm evolving. I'm still taking a sabbatical, still have taken a position of conscience on that issue and have stuck with that. And that's all I have to say.

John Dehlin [00:21:39] So do you want a follow up question or do you want to leave it?

Roger Hendrix [00:21:42] Follow up question.

John Dehlin [00:21:43] Yeah. Okay. So, you know, there is this typical orthodox Mormon testimony. We all know what that is. I'm not going to repeat it here. So it kind of begs the question if you were, if you're like saying, you know, just in your reframing you're saying that, that we created God, right? Which is very different than God created us. That's like, wait a minute, that's, that's just at the very. If we created God, then all the other testimony points of the testimony glove with Jesus and Joseph Smith and the one true church and priesthood authority in the Book of Mormon and the Bible. That kind of, potentially someone might say, well, then that all goes out the window. You don't have a testimony. So I guess my follow up question is if you haven't lost your testimony, how would you describe your testimony in any way that might even sound remotely Mormon? Or maybe you wouldn't. Well,

Roger Hendrix [00:22:40] I've mellowed a little bit in my explanation of this because it kind of exploded on people when I said it. There could be a God out there and at the same time we could create God. He could be out there and then there are people like Joseph Smith who, who plug in and create, put words to what they experienced and what they felt was true. And I think that that's what sticks, is how we create God with words. And that goes back to Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] That

Roger Hendrix [00:23:32] takes into account the Restoration, the Reformation. And so I've tried to be a little more diplomatic on that, but still my position is great religions have great stories and they have a way of communicating great ideas about God and it's a creation. And Joseph Smith, I think, created

John Dehlin [00:24:10] a

Roger Hendrix [00:24:10] big religion with a big God.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] Right. So would you identify as a Christian? And if so, what does that mean?

Roger Hendrix [00:24:21] You're the first person who has asked me if I identify with a Christian.

John Dehlin [00:24:28] Have to answer if you're uncomfortable. I don't want to cause more problems. No, I want to solve problems, not create that.

Roger Hendrix [00:24:33] No, I'm not uncomfortable. My wife is a Christian and, but I would not characterize myself as a Christian. I wouldn't characterize, I'm a secular Mormon. That's how I would describe myself. And I feel very comfortable telling people that and having them struggle with it or, or challenge me on it. But that's how I would describe myself

John Dehlin [00:25:14] as a secular Mormon.

Roger Hendrix [00:25:15] Secular Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] So I mean, I could hear some saying, all right, Roger, as soon as you say you're a secular Mormon, you have lost your faith. But let me see if I can try and, let me see if I can try and actually listen to you and be respectful for what you're saying. What a part of what I hear you saying is you don't like your faith transition to be characterized as a loss of anything because you feel like healthier and happier and better about what you do think and believe than ever before. And so the negative positioning of a loss just is a non starter, just from the very beginning. Is that part of it?

Roger Hendrix [00:25:53] Yeah. I think that I have always had a secular feel to me. I've respected it. I've had a deep religious feel to me. And so for a great deal of my life, religion was on top of the secular world. In other words, I described a secular world through my religious lens. And all I did was I just substituted and put a secular lens over my religious world. That's all I did. And so I searched for just exactly how would I describe that and tell people, and I came up with secular Mormon. And I feel very good about it. And again, well, by way of repetition, I've always. And it's my belief that most members of the church have a secular sensitivity to them and, and they interpret all things secular through their religious lens. And so if they take the time to understand, you know, where I'm coming from, I just turn the hourglass over.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] I love it. Do you consider yourself spiritual? And is the term spirituality even important to you or not?

Roger Hendrix [00:27:38] I am deeply spiritual and have experimented with spiritual experiences. And at a certain point I had to turn it off a little bit because it was very profound to me. And I just one day said I really got to be far more rational than I am spiritual because I could spend 24 hours a day in a spiritual mode, but I wouldn't be

John Dehlin [00:28:20] neglecting,

Roger Hendrix [00:28:21] I'd be neglecting everything and wouldn't be learning anything. And so that's when I became a very rational person. And right now I am very. I am a very rational thinker, not so much a spiritual thinker.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] Got it. Okay. Anything else? Are we good on that topic? Do you feel restored and do you feel content with that framing?

Roger Hendrix [00:28:55] I think we'll always go back and forth on that. I think in your heart, you know, you think that I might be layering it a little bit, a little defensiveness, and I might be, but that's as good as I can give right now.

John Dehlin [00:29:16] No, I love it. I. I believe you. And honestly, that was probably more me trying to create a compelling title that people would want to watch. It was more about having views and listeners than it probably was accurately reflecting. Reflecting what I even heard from you all. Own up to that. And I'll say, now I believe you, I respect you, and I love, I Think it's. I love the wisdom and the diplomacy and the thoughtfulness of your response. And I just want you to know I fully believe you and I don't think you're playing games and I respect your position.

Roger Hendrix [00:29:52] Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:29:54] Not that it matters.

Roger Hendrix [00:29:56] It does matter.

Overview of the Future of Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:29:57] Okay, so now what I'd like to do is let's transition to the church and the future of Mormonism. This is the title you picked. And why don't we start by you giving us a background of number one, what you did as a management consultant. And by the way, I spent a tiny bit of time at Bain as a management consultant. So we share that as a career, turning companies around, helping them be successful. What is it you want to tell us about your 35 year career as a management consultant that will help us, will help provide a framing for our discussion about the future of the, the corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ. And, and what are you want to talk about? Your methodology and then we'll talk about the points that are like the meat of today's discussion. Anything you want to say as a setup?

Roger Hendrix [00:30:47] As a management consultant, I did two things. One, I would pull into a city and the client would, then who was hiring me would put on a luncheon where I would give, always give future trends, the future of the economy, the future of political races. And so that was the first thing I did. So I'm very steeped in giving of, of creating outlines that give a taste for what we have to look forward to. The second thing I did was I would sit down with management teams and we would set five year goals and one year goals. And so when they, so I would help them create their one year goals, for example. And every company I've ever consulted for always says, well, in 2022 we want to drive, in 2021 we want to drive $20 million worth of revenue and we're only driving say 17 right now. And so my point was how are you going to do it? And no matter what company you are, no matter how big it is, people get stumped on the how. And so what I did was I created strategies off the shelf strategies, 16 of them as matter of fact, that those guys could set their goal and then on the how strategies are how you accomplish things. They could look at the 16 strategies that I gave them. They could pick one, plug it in, and then they could drive all their action plans off of that strategy and that became really successful. If there's anything probably I'm known for with my client base, it is those 16 strategies. And, and so with that, well, those are the two things I do. And so now how does that segue into the future of Mormonism? I thought it would be interesting to create some trends of what, where the Church is going the next 10 or 20 years. Just kind of picking out the strategies they're implementing right now in the church. And once you know the strategy, you know what they're trying to accomplish in the future. And so that's what I did as a management consultant and that's in creating the trends on the future Mormonism. What I did was I just picked the strategies that I see the Church using and projecting that out into the future. And I feel pretty comfortable with those. I think that's where the Church is going. I, I wouldn't, I wouldn't come on and talk like this. If, you know, if they see this interview five years from now and it's wacko, you know, I don't want that. But I feel confident in what I'm doing and what I'm going to share with you today.

Sixteen Trends Shaping the Church's Strategy

John Dehlin [00:34:52] Okay, so you were kind enough to share with me these 16 points.

Roger Hendrix [00:35:00] 16 strategies.

John Dehlin [00:35:01] 16 strategies. And I'll just kind of piggyback on what you just said and kind of read some of them. So there's inside strategies and outside strategies. The inside strategies are product strategy, marketing strategy, financial strategy, ideation strategy, technology strategy, organizational strategy, and human strategy. That's the inside. And then the outside is niche strategy, value added strategy, bold surprise strategy, strength against weakness strategy by the competition strategy, dumping strategy, fortress strategy, milk and maintain strategy, and copycat strategy. So this is just to give you a kind of sense for the internal, the external focus. What I think, I sense is you picked six of these, is that right, that you think are relevant to the direction of the church. Six of these 16. Did I get that right?

Roger Hendrix [00:35:58] I have identified six strategies out of those 16 that I notice in the activity of the Church going forward into the future. And so,

John Dehlin [00:36:14] so it's not, this isn't going to be what you think the Church should do. This is what you're observing that the Church is doing from the lens of your consulting framework.

Roger Hendrix [00:36:24] And will do. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] And will do.

Roger Hendrix [00:36:26] And, and it doesn't mean they won't change, but at least right now, as I observe it, this is where they're going. And, and with that, you can pretty much know whether or not the Church is going to collapse or it's going to survive or it's going to thrive based on that. And so I think these six trends will show you pretty much where the church will be in the next 10, 20 years.

John Dehlin [00:36:59] Okay. Okay, so let's, let's back up and I'm going to ask you a question.

Roger Hendrix [00:37:05] I'm wondering if people are turning off right now the 16 strategies are saying, what in the world is going on here?

John Dehlin [00:37:11] I think we have a, you know, there are some people that just want like a bite sized, editorialized 40 minutes. And that's not my critical mass. My critical mass of loyal listeners want to go deep. They want to understand, they want to take their time. They like the slow marinade, so to speak, and they can't get enough of the longer episodes. Now, I know there are exceptions to that. We are creating shorts now. If you go to the Understanding Mormonism YouTube channel, which is different from the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel, you can watch these little 10 minute, 15 minute, 20 minute excerpts that we are releasing for the people that just want kind of smaller segments. But as long as my donors are supporting me, the feedback I'm getting is deeper the better. And so I, I don't, I don't mind going into depth. I like it, it makes it interesting to me. If we're just trying to keep it short and do sound bites, I'm losing interest.

Roger Hendrix [00:38:05] That's, that's cool.

A Three-Column Framework for Understanding the Church

John Dehlin [00:38:08] So here's my question though. A lot of people as they're raised Mormon, they don't think about it as a corporation. They don't know it's a corporation. They don't think about it as like board of directors and product strategy and marketing strategy. They think of it as God leading his holy prophet and his holy prophets, seers and revelators to transform and save humankind. You know, that's kind of how Mormons think about the Mormon Church. And they think about temple service and sacrament and missionary work and redeeming the dead and just spiritual stuff. There is probably a, you know, a group of people that would be like, hey, it's insulting to think about the church as a corporation. It's insulting to look at the church from a corporate framework. And it's really insulting to talk about the church in terms of its product strategy and its marketing strategy and its governance and its business strategy. And it's super duper offensive to talk about the church and, you know, compared to Coca Cola, compared to Walmart, compared to Target or McDonald's. And to like think of it in terms of like crass, cynical corporate business terms. But I think we're going to kind of do that a little bit today maybe. So what Would you say in response to kind of that people who had expressed that concern about that type of framing,

Roger Hendrix [00:39:34] My thought would be this. I'm going to tell you how I think about it, how I think about the church. I draw three columns. In column one, I put the church, which is Sunday and weekday activities and seminary and membership in the church. The second column is the doctrine of the Church. And the third column is the kingdom of God on earth or the theocracy of the Church. And in that third column, in the theocracy or the the kingdom of God on earth is the money of the church. And with money, you, you can do a lot of things, and the Church does do a lot of things. And Brigham Young said, you know, when you're talking about dollars and cents, you're talking about the church. And, and so you're going today, we're going to talk about that third column a lot. I believe the church is a theocracy. I believe that under a theocracy comes the business of the Church. The Church has no other way other than tithing to make money, store money, invest money, have a rainy day fund. And, and, and that third column, or the Kingdom of God, deals with the politics, how the Church relates to the political entities. And the Church is very aggressive when it comes to interfacing with political bodies. And they don't state.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Right.

Roger Hendrix [00:41:49] The every. Exactly, definitely. And down to the local levels. And so they get involved in politics, they get involved in a big time in business, they get involved in legislation, they get involved with communities. And so whether people don't like that is one thing. But the reality is when you talk like the First Presidency in the Quorum of the twelve, you're talking about guys who are looking at a broad spectrum of interest. And the Church is one of those, a main one, but definitely not the only one.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] Okay, so just for the sake of repetition and memory, what are these three columns again? Tell us one more time.

Roger Hendrix [00:42:49] Yeah, when, when I'm trying to analyze where I think the Church of Jesus Christ Letter of Saints is going in the future, I create three columns. The first column is the Church, which is the Sunday activity and membership in the church. The second column is doctrine. In other words, what are the teachings and the policies and the revelations that guide and form the thinking of members in the church? And then the third one is the kingdom of God or the theocracy. That's it.

John Dehlin [00:43:41] Yeah. And, and while you say we're going to be focusing on the third column, which is the theocracy and the business, the Truth is, they're all interrelated. Right. Like, so, as an example, the world, let's say the United States, starts becoming more supporting of same sex marriage and same sex relationships or transgender rights or whatever, or the civil rights movement in the 60s. Right. Pressures from the outside world can put pressure on the church and sometimes it's political pressures, and then that can ultimately influence doctrine and the lived church experience. Or if the church is seeing people hemorrhaging, then it has to think about what parts of our doctrine, you know, tithing is in decline, but, you know, the church itself, butts and seats aren't what they used to be. We see a decline and tithing's down. That's in column three. So the business isn't doing as well. The product that we're offering isn't really selling. So do we need to start tweaking the doctrine or the theology to, to help stem the tide and to help resuscitate things? So do you agree that they're all kind of three interrelated and the changes in one are often driven by or impact changes in the other?

Roger Hendrix [00:45:02] Yes, I do, but I, I, I think for purposes of a dialogue, I'm going to try and keep those three columns very separate and show how, how especially the third column is changing the church, changing the church in column one. And so I agree they're interrelated, but I'll take my time at showing where I believe the church or the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints is moving either at a church level, a doctrinal level, or at the highest level, the theocratic level.

John Dehlin [00:45:51] Okay. All right, so should we start with point number one, strategy number one?

Trend One: Product and Brand Changes

Roger Hendrix [00:45:58] It's trend number one.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Trend number one. Okay, so these are trends. I'll make sure and write that so I can remember it. Trends. All right, trend number one by, by Roger Hendricks. I'll read it and then there's some bullet points and we'll discuss it. All right, so trend number one that, that you have laid out for us is adjusting the name. Oh, sorry. The leadership will continue to spend considerable time over the next 10 years creating a new religion or church. So that's a, you know, on the one hand, that's a, seems to be like a big deal. It's like what, you know, believers would go, what? A new religion, a new church? That's crazy. This is God never changes. It's the same. God's the same yesterday, today, and forever. And the church never changes. That's a naive, simplistic view, a more nuanced view would be man, the church, if it does anything, it changes. And if you look at the polygamist church, the early Joseph Smith Church, or the polygamist church of the mid-1800s, the theocracy of Brigham Young to the David O. McKay changes like of course, if the church does anything, whether it's with LGBT rights or racism or feminism or sexism or the church is always evolving and it's doctrine. If you look at Charlie Harrell's book like it's the church is always changing its doctrine, evolving the doctrine moving away from polygamy, moving towards this or that, moving away from theosis and us becoming gods towards something else. Like the church is always changing. But let's have you talk about what you mean by by creating a new religion or church that seems radical.

Roger Hendrix [00:47:37] Talking about column one, the church. Okay, look at all the changes that are taking place in the church, from missionary attire to two hours of worship service on Sunday to the coming forward of women who are now advisor area advisors in Europe with the area authorities. What are some of the other changes that are taking place?

John Dehlin [00:48:13] The name change.

Roger Hendrix [00:48:15] Oh well, the name change is my sweet spot. This is where that hit me. And that's not Let me make two comments.

John Dehlin [00:48:29] Number one, what do you mean by the name change?

Roger Hendrix [00:48:31] Just so people know, when Russell M. Nelson said you can no longer use the word Mormon to describe us, that really put members in a unique position, as unique as any position they've ever had to take in their historical as well as present lives. And what that means is that you can't call yourself a Mormon. So what can you call yourself? Well, you can call yourself a member of the church, Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, or you can call yourself a Latter Day Saint,

John Dehlin [00:49:18] which no one knows what that means outside of the church.

Roger Hendrix [00:49:20] And so what it does, it pushes you in the corner of squeezing out of you what this really means. It means that we are Christians. We Jesus is at the head and no longer should we ever think that Joseph Smith is ahead of Jesus. And to the point that when we I start thumbing through Facebook pages and biographies of folks and some of the staunchest members are now beginning to call themselves Christians and Latter Day Saints. But this idea that you are a Christian and this idea you cannot use Mormon anymore. And Mormon has been the word, Mormon has been taken off of everything except the Book of Mormon. And so Russell M. Nelson, in my opinion, has taken a huge strategic step in changing the nature of belief of members of the church. And that's right there in column one. You believe in Jesus, you're not Mormons. And, and so when I look at that, along with all of the other changes, I'm saying to myself, this falls into the strategy of refining the product. The product that the people are putting, are witnessing in their daily lives as members of the church are actually changing. The product is changing. And so now I think to myself, if that is taking place, what else will happen? And I'm thinking probably, probably if we are Christians, we also have got to get the Joseph Smith story right because Mormon, Mormon kind of is, is going into that second column of doctrine. The word Mormon is not doctrine, but it is a serious identifier of how we think about ourselves. And so, so that I think Russell Nelson is in there changing the, the, the mentality of what we think and how we think about God. Now we probably have to get the Joseph Smith story right as we do that. And I've noticed that as we're burnishing, creating a better product for ourselves, all of a sudden I start hearing and seeing articles being written and people talking about the idea that Joseph never translated the plates. The plates, whatever was in that gunny sack that stayed on the table. And Joseph put his head into a hat. There was a stone, he'd look up and he would tell the people what to write down. And when I talk to people in the people like ces, people who are the vanguard of the educational system, that I hear them saying that they, they, they feel pretty good about talking about revelation as opposed to translation. That's a change. And so I'm saying with all of this change, the product is really getting changed. And if I were looking at it just solely from a business standpoint, a strategic standpoint, I think that pretty soon we're the, the golden plates may just drop off the table and we will say that Joseph Smith received revelation to write the Book of Mormon. And that's deep, deep doctrine. And so do I think it's heading in that direction more than likely because there just so much change that's going on to this product. Were now Christians. And Joseph Smith is probably. We're going to go back to the origin in the first page in the Book of Mormon. And it didn't say that he translated, it said that he created or authored the Book of Mormon. Hey, that's good enough for me. And I think people will be happier about that. Simple and more importantly is true. And so that's the first big trend

John Dehlin [00:54:47] where

Roger Hendrix [00:54:50] the church is being changed at a significant and profound level. Becoming Christians, getting our history straight, big Changes in the product, reframing our history.

John Dehlin [00:55:07] And you actually have, as a last point, focusing on, instead of Joseph Smith and the translation and the miracle and the angels and Moroni and Mormon, focusing on the value of what's in the book, not on the story that created the book. Is that right?

Roger Hendrix [00:55:24] Yeah, I think that the book that we have in our hands is more important than how the book was created. It. And we need to have a simple story about how this book was created. If you're going to be a great religion, you usually have to have a book. And the Jews have the Old Testament, the early Christians have the New Testament, Islam has the Quran and, and they're always kind of revelations that prophets receive. And so that's no different than what Joseph Smith did simplifies that story. He received revelation. We have the book. The book is more important than, than how we got the book. And if you're. And I feel comfortable with that, people need a book. People believe in the Bible more than they believe what's inside the Bible. Most people don't know where scriptures are, but they hold up and they, they know there is a Bible, a physical thing that has truth inside of it. And members of the church are the same way. They have their Book of Mormon, you know, in their home. And they might read certain passages in it, but ultimately what they'll do is you've got to believe in the Book of Mormon, the book.

John Dehlin [00:57:14] Right. Regardless of what it says. Right.

Roger Hendrix [00:57:20] They think that what it says is important, but they don't exactly know, you know, everything that's there. We are not. People are not supposed to be scholars in these texts. They're supposed to be believers. We believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God. Right.

John Dehlin [00:57:43] So just to kind of summarize this point, you know, the way I like to think of it is, and tell me if you think this is right. First of all, as the new Mormon history has come onto the scene, as the church has finally been willing to admit after denying for decades Joseph's folk magic stuff, the stone in the hat with the translation, all the problematic fraught history, the polygamy, the polyandry, the this, the Book of Mormon's story, was it Nephi? Wait, was it Moroni? And then all the anachronisms and all the problems with the Book of Mormon historicity and the DNA and not to mention the Book of Abraham. Like once with the CES letter and Mormon stories and Mormon think, once the general membership understands that the historicity of our scriptures are a problem and just Basic Joseph Smith, Mormon history and Brigham Young Mormon history are problems. That becomes a problem and it becomes a weight and it becomes a problem. Embarrassing. And so one of the things I hear you saying is, is sort of strategically, Russell M. Nelson is sort of saying less, less Joseph Smith, more Jesus. Right. And, and that's reflected in de emphasizing how the Book of Mormon was created. That doesn't matter. De emphasizing the translation. Translation really isn't accurate because the history doesn't support that. Let's move from translation to revelation or inspiration. Let's deemphasize Moroni, let's take Moroni off the temples whenever we can. Let's talk a lot less about Joseph, talk a lot more about Jesus because that shift is a smarter shift given the problematic history. And then the second part of that is let's, instead of viewing evangelical Christianity and Catholic Christianity and other types of Christianity, instead of seeing them as enemies, as competitors, we need religious freedom. We need, as we're shrinking, as other churches are shrinking, as secularism is on the rise, as religion sort of under assault, oh my gosh, now we have, you know, respecting of all races, oh my gosh, now we can't do polygamy. Oh my gosh, now we have to accept same sex marriage. Is the church going to take away our tax exempt status? You know, are we under assault? We need the other Christian churches to be our friends. So as we rebrand ourselves as Christians and try to do ecumenical, kind of cross the dominational stuff, we can join the broader Christian community and have them as allies. And so we want to be associated with Jesus and Christianity so that we can have more friends. Is any of that maybe part of the strategy? Am I, am I in any way summarizing kind of some of what you're saying for point one correctly?

Shifting Emphasis from Joseph Smith to Jesus

Roger Hendrix [01:00:29] Well, now we know how profound when you fiddle around with your product, whether you are a religion or you are a company, you're playing around with the building blocks, the very fundamentals of your religion. And when you're going in a direction that is different than where we have been, yes, we're going there. We're going in a new direction. We need to go there. Whether all of the nuances that you suggested are in President Nelson's head and he just receives revelation on those things, I think we just have to now just hold it to what we actually see and then the implications are what you suggested. And I agree with, I agree with your implications. Now it also says that, you know, if we do a good job in working out our product, if we get our product better, we're going to be around. The church is going to be around. If it improves its product and if it goes into a more Christian, a more simple Christian story. If we're able to say that Joseph received revelation and that's the Book of Mormon, who cares if it's 19th century political philosophy or folk philosophy of that particular part of the country? Who cares? Just knowing that he was able to create the book through revelation is enough. All the rest of it, you know, let's make the religion simple. Let's make it Christian driven. And then when you go into these new, what I call markets and you bring on new members of the church and they no longer have to fiddle around with the complex story of Joseph Smith and the plates and even the Book of Abraham, and a new member can say, if people start criticizing a new member about the golden plates and that, the new member can just say, that's what we were. What we are right now is we believe Joseph started it off, but he started it off with the idea that we were the Church of Jesus Christ. That's what we are.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] I do have a couple questions I just have to ask you. I know that we have a lot of points to cover, but these are important to me. The first one is, were you surprised that, like, during the Mitt Romney years of him running for president, we've got the I'm a Mormon campaign. We're like, postering that all over Broadway and, you know, all over the world, the church is telling all the members to, like, join the I'm a Mormon campaign and bear their testimonies. The church is, like, embracing the word Mormon all over the place in their media. They actually have a movie called Meet the Mormons with the premiere in Salt Lake City and Jeffrey Holland's there. You know, just like, you know, on the. On the one minute they're like, fully embracing and trumpeting the word Mormon, and then soon there's a prophet change. And all of a sudden, to use the word Mormon, you know, it's called. Even the church's PR department was called the Mormon Newsroom, right? Like, that was the church's own website, Mormon Newsroom, Twitter, Mormon Newsroom. That's the account. Like, Mormon using Mormon everywhere. Then all of a sudden, a new prophet comes. All of a sudden he says that to use the term Mormon is a victory for Satan. And there's like, no discussion. It's just like everybody's like, okay, whatever you say. And all of a sudden, what was embraced and celebrated by prophets, seers, and revelators, the opposite is now taught and nobody bats an eye. And they just. Were you impressed at how smooth that transition was given the fact that it was literally a 180 by people that we expect to be speaking for God, you know what I'm saying? Were you surprised or impressed?

Roger Hendrix [01:05:14] I was impressed with one thing. I was impressed that President Nelson just changed everything boldly. You know, if he keeps going on the way he is, you know, you have Joseph Smith who revealed through the restoration of the gospel. You have Brigham Young who created a new religious civilization, a theocracy in the Great Basin Kingdom. And you might now have. Russell M. Nelson is kind of the, the prophet along with those two prophets.

John Dehlin [01:05:58] Wow.

Roger Hendrix [01:05:59] Who, whose, whose move is as strategic as anything else. Sometimes I even think more strategic than lifting the band, the priesthood ban and because it forces the members to have to say they are Christians and with that there are great implications. And it's just like Coca Cola, you know, when they, when they started fooling around with their products and then they come up with Diet Coke, which is now selling more than Coca Cola. And that was a great big strategic move. Well, what President Nelson did was a strategic move. And then when I read articles about, you know, about how he received that revelation, his wife said as much as he said about the process. And she said, my husband got to the point now, you know, I don't have to go through any layers. It's just directly to God, you know, and this is where I want to go. And so my thinking about him has changed dramatically. That is the, that's what impresses me the most. I expected the members to go along with it, you know, because that's who we are. We're a top down religion. But the guy who actually makes a big step like that, I just, I could even see guys being prophets saying no way am I going to, you know, am I going to say we're no longer going to use the word Mormon and we're going to take everything Mormon out. And now we're the church of Jesus Christ. I think it's bold. And he's a bold leader. He's a. And so do I like that. Yeah, I like that a lot.

Retrenchment, Risk, and Church Wealth

John Dehlin [01:08:22] Next question. Is it risky? You know, the Armand Moss talks about, you know, assimilation and retrenchment, that the church is always oscillating between up. We're too weird, we're too different. You know, we need to change so the society doesn't want to kill us and run us out and make us illegal and knock us Down. Okay, wait a minute. We've assimilated too much. We need to retrench and go back to our fundamentalist roots more because we need to be distinctive. Because if you water down the church too much, then you risk people losing interest and you're just like every other Christian. And why do we even need you? Why do we even need to come to church? Because we're just a watered down, another now Protestant vanilla of the road church. So there's always this tension between retrenchment and assimilation. And there's always this risk that as we try and become vanilla Christians, Christians like everybody else, move away from Joseph, move away from the distinctive parts about our teachings that you water it down to the point where members just feel like it's not compelling, like this isn't really interesting anymore. It's no longer unique. We're just like everybody else. Do you think there's a risk there?

Roger Hendrix [01:09:40] Yep, always a risk when you're changing your product.

John Dehlin [01:09:47] And

Roger Hendrix [01:09:49] I'm not so sure Armen would have thought that the assimilation versus the entrenchment would go along the lines of us assimilating to the point that we're no longer what we were. We are now a Christian church, which we always have been. And so the model works. But I think again, President Nelson has challenged the model. We're going in a different direction. We're just not oscillating between two values. And do I believe it is a smart move you'll find down when we get into the other trends, it guarantees the church's survival.

John Dehlin [01:10:48] Yeah. Okay, last question about this point. Some would say the church has kind of picked a losing. By picking Christianity, they're picking a losing bet because guess what? Yes, the church is in decline, but so is Christianity. So by jumping into the Christian pot, they're just, they're picking a loser because Christianity is also in decline. Pick any Protestant church. Pick evangelical Christianity. It's all in decline. And so like out of the frying pan into the fire, watering it down. And Christianity is a loser anyway. So it's kind of a lose lose anyway. What do you say about this concern that Christianity is as much of a loser as Mormonism in the long run?

Roger Hendrix [01:11:33] Yeah, I deal with that maybe in the fifth or sixth trend.

John Dehlin [01:11:38] But

Roger Hendrix [01:11:41] there has come a time when not only is Mormonism losing its market and its growth rate is going down, but every Christian denomination in this country is suffering the same thing as you just said. So when you're in business, what you do is when you find that not only your company is losing market share. But when you find that every one of your competitors, you're all losing market share because the service that all these companies or products, all these companies provide are not as popular as they were, they're going someplace else. And so what you do, that's one of the strategies I have, is you do mergers and acquisitions. In other words, what you do is you start merging to one company, starts buying other companies so that they can at least maintain what they have by gobbling up other companies who are also losing. But you put all the losers together and you still have a strong fundamental foundation for your company. And so that's when companies lose market share, they begin to do mergers and acquisitions. Well, for the church, mergers and acquisitions is just a fancy word for starting to be friends with other religions. And the fact is other religions want to be our friends as well now

John Dehlin [01:13:31] because we're rich and powerful, right? And organized.

Roger Hendrix [01:13:36] And we're the biggest game in the town in the western part of the United States, at least in the Great Basin Kingdom. And so.

John Dehlin [01:13:47] Wait, wait. And I just, I don't want to miss this point. We had this conversation earlier. We're the wealthiest church in the world by some measure. We're not just like big in Utah, big in the mountain West. I think it's, I think by some measurements, I think you mentioned to me that we are potentially richer than the Catholic Church. Is that fair to say? We're a big dog, right?

Roger Hendrix [01:14:09] We're richer than the Catholic Church. Catholic church has in cash reserves 50 billion, doll. We now we the church, Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints or the third column, the kingdom of God on earth or the theocracy. And we've got to talk about theocracy because people are going to get mad at me for using that word. But we have 130 billion. Where? How many? 50 billion. We're two thirds bigger than the Catholic church, Catholic. And they have billion two members. And we have 16 million. Oh my gosh. Nobody better try to go to war with us. We're like the United States of America and its military. The military of the United States of America is bigger than the next 10 militaries in the world. And so the church has resources and other churches know that. And we get things done. For example, our association with the Baptist church, as result of our association with the naacp, which just, that's really the core of that, are high powered Baptists from the black Baptist movement in America. And so the church has rolled out its programs to the Baptist Church and, and we helped them Renovate the Medgar Evers center in Mississippi. And so we are telling the black churches we want an alliance with you. And the black churches are saying, we want an alliance with you. And so along with we are not Mormons, we are Christians, there is a sort of merger. And then maybe our core doctrines may be Jesus and some value issues at the federal level and the state level, such as abortion. And so, Yeah, that's, that's what's happening now. That's in my humble opinion. Do I. And, but I think you can see it all around. Can't you? Can't you see our, our outreach and then other churches outreach to us? I mean, and you have Henry Iron spending I don't know how many days in a special council with all the, the big Christian leaders in the world there in the Vatican. And you have President Nelson going and visiting the Vatican. And then when asked what he thinks about the Pope. The Pope and I have a very special relationship. We came to an accord very quickly. It doesn't take much thinking to realize this is important. And the Pope is as interested in his relationship with the Mormon Church in the western part of the United States as we are in the Catholic Church to make sure we have strong walls to go up against secularism and how we're losing members. Everyone's losing members.

John Dehlin [01:18:18] Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting point. Like mergers and acquisitions is one way to talk about it. Another way to talk about it is strategic partnerships. Maybe. But if I think about growing up Mormon, the Catholic Church was the great and abominable church. And evangelical Christianity, they hated us. And we had the God makers. And they're like, you're not even Christian. And you know, it was basically us, them, and we were the only really legitimate church in the world. And everybody else was opposer. And if you think about how dramatically things have changed, we're now friends of the Catholic Church. We're fighting arm in arm with them. You know, it's fascinating to have you talk about this. And if I think about Spencer Fluman, Patrick Mason, Phil Barlow, all those people at the Maxwell Institute, their BYU faculty, even the, some of the stuff out of the Maxwell Institute, there is a concerted effort to do cross ecumenical kind of stuff. I think part of that is so they don't hate us anymore. Part of it is so they don't think of us as a cult. Part of it so they don't demonize us. And part of it is, is because we, we're going to be more successful at defending religious freedom, which some would Say, means defending our ability to discriminate and to teach bigotry in the United States. But we need partners in protecting what we call religious freedom as a church, and we need political and even theological allies. And so what you see as a tax we have to pay is to water down our theology to the more offensive, less traditionally Christian tenets like man becomes God, you know, like there are multiple gods, you know, de emphasizing Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon, kind

Roger Hendrix [01:20:05] of like that man becomes God. That kind of gets to my kind of secular view of things.

John Dehlin [01:20:10] I know, but it, but the, but the Baptists don't like it, and we got hammered, hammered on that. So anyway, I just, I think it's really interesting for you to mention.

Roger Hendrix [01:20:21] I think, Okay, I, I think you're right in business terms. When you feel that your survival is at stake and everybody else in other religions feels like their survival is at stake, they are going to make friends and build walls around what they have. And there's got to be a give and take on everybody's part. This is pretty revolutionary thinking, but I think that that's where we're going. I may be stating it more bluntly than some would like, but I'm being as kind as I possibly can.

John Dehlin [01:21:16] Sure. And just to kind of close out this point, when you think about, like BYU under assault for its ability to have an honor code and to just, you know, to keep gay kids, you know, from act, you know, acting out on, on their same sex attraction or, you know, transgender bathrooms or whatever it is the church doesn't like or doesn't want to make a change on. When you think about same sex attraction and trying to fight same sex marriage, when you think about, you know, the, the church's right to hire and fire who they want, whether or not they have to have contraception in their health care, you know, whatever it is the church doesn't want. There are lots of other religious institutions with religious universities or hiring, hiring, firing policies or local municipal rules, whatever it is. You can just see why the church wants other religions to be allies. And there's this famous saying, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. If secularism and potentially the federal government or state governments or drug stuff, you know, legalization of marijuana or the, you know, openness around drug policy, there are just all sorts of reasons why the church needs allies to fight encroaching secularism in the United States and in the world, or even the threat to the church's nonprofit status, like what religion wants their nonprofit status taken away. So for all those reasons encroaching secularism, growing secularism and shrinking religion means that my new, my old enemies become my new friends. Because the new enemy is growing secularism and the growing power of federal government. And we need these people who are once enemies to become partners. And so we'll partner on all these types of issues because just like with Prop 8, we're going to be more effective in changing a law in California. If it's the Catholics and the Muslims and the Baptists and the evangelicals and the Mormons, we can all act as a lobbying group. We can all act together as an activist group to get our members mobilized. And we can all pool our money so that no one person is flagged as a bigot, so that we can pool together to influence public policy. And like you said, in a theocracy, you are influencing politics and business. And I think we probably beat this dead horse.

Roger Hendrix [01:23:43] Well, I think that summarization is brilliant. I think that goes a long way that that horse runs.

John Dehlin [01:23:56] So it's smart. So it's smart of the church to do that.

Roger Hendrix [01:24:00] Yeah.

Declining Membership Growth as a Driver of Change

John Dehlin [01:24:01] Okay, so we, we move 0.5 up to 0.2. Let's, let's list a third trend, which was number two. Now it's three. You write the lack of growth is driving the leadership to create greater efficiencies so that new markets can be found. And I can read the sub bullets or you can start talking about that overall trend if you want lack of growth driving greater efficiencies and new markets.

Roger Hendrix [01:24:33] Boy, compared to what we have just talked about, this seems a little anemic.

John Dehlin [01:24:39] I don't think so.

Roger Hendrix [01:24:41] Well, I. All the numbers suggest that the church is, is not growing at the rate that it thought it would be growing.

John Dehlin [01:24:54] Can I have to. You wanted to have a back and forth and sometimes listeners don't like when I interrupt. Roger asked me that we have a back and forth. It's his request. So we're having a back and forth. We should define the terms of what we mean by growth. And let me just tell you some things. There's. There's overall membership growth, which can sometimes be an image a ghost because baptisms does not mean butts and seats. So there's, so there's, you know, memberships of record growth and there's also resignations. You know, so, so there's growth of membership of record. There's growth or shrinkage of butts in seats, which is active. Right. And then there's growth of, of money of our assets. And so those are all different Ways to look at growth. Am I right? How are we defining growth? Because members of record growth is different from butts and seats growth, which is different from financial growth.

Roger Hendrix [01:25:54] I kind of like to keep this thing in one alley or one lane, and that is growth in members, baptisms and children of record. That is not growing at the rate that it has now. I think that a good debate on it would be is it really growing or not growing? I think there can be an argument about depending on the variable you choose to measure, it could be growing, but we can get back to that later. Let's just say the baptisms, children of record, it's not growing at the rate that it has been growing in the past. So the leadership of the church would say, what do we have to do now in business? This is what we do. When our, when our quote market begins to shrink and we're not growing at the rate we have, automatically we, we do four things. We adopt a very sophisticated financial strategy. And there are four parts to a financial strategy. One, you start driving your cost down because spending more and more money on less and less results is a fool's errand. So you start cutting costs. But there is this cardinal rule. When you cut cost, you have no right to diminish the, the, the value of the product. The product should continue to improve even when you cut the costs. And, and, and so you have an improving product, you have an and, but you're, you're delivering it at a lower cost. Then the next thing you do is you take that, that, that product that you have given to your clientele and you go out to them and see if they still will buy the product which is now being created more efficiently at less cost. Do they, do they see that instead of cardboard, they get paper and they say, you're screwing us over on what we now buy. And so you go out and you test that. And then what you do is if the members who are receiving your product don't see any difference, even though you're cutting the cost and the materials you're giving to them, to the quality of the missionaries that are going out, etc. Then you have to give them something new, a little something new. And for the church today, they're cutting their cost, but they're improved. The quality of the product continues to improve. They go out, they deliver it to the rank and file members who have been with them for 150 years, and they add something that tweaks and enhances their imagination. And my theory is that it's probably BYU Pathways. And for example, what is that? For those who don't know, it's a person who can get a degree from byu, Idaho, a certificate, an associate of arts degree, or a bachelor's degree in very specific majors that allow them to make more money as they go out into the world. And it started 11 years ago, and it started out with what they say. They start out with 50, and they're now up to 50,000.

John Dehlin [01:30:33] 50,000 what?

Roger Hendrix [01:30:35] 50,000 people who have registered for BYU pathways in either a certificate or an Associate of Arts degree or a bachelor's degree. Now the church is sort of waving the flag. This is cool. People are digging this and we're delivering the same services to them at a cheaper cost to us. So then once you know that, then you, you, you say, now we think we can take this and go into new markets. And, and because unless we go into new markets, we're going to continue to dwindle. So we've got to find a good product that is efficiently delivered with maybe a newbie like BYU Pathways, and we've got to find a market that will respond to this, a new market. And my theory is that the new market which will be eventually the dominant market in the church is Africa, especially Western Africa. And so you go into Africa and you start delivering the services which they have for 20 years plus sacrament meeting, you know, building little chapels, seminary, early morning seminary, Relief Society, etc. Plus you add BYU Pathways in a place like Africa, which has how many nations? 54 nations, 54 countries, rather. And, and the place has 1.2 billion. I mean, Africa is as big as China and as big as India. And they already have a Christian tradition in at least Western Africa. Well, and they do in Eastern Africa, in Ethiopia especially. And the one thing that Africans will, there'll be millions who will be interested not only in the church and the services, but this BYU Pathways. What BYU has done is they have made the getting of a certificate or an AA degree or a bachelor's degree. They've made it affordable for the poorest people in the world. And once you get an African child not only going to seminary, not only taking the sacrament, but also being teeth eventually on BYU Pathways, this BYU Pathways is being delivered to them as opposed to them going to BYU and Provo or BYU in Where's by. In Rexburg or in Hawaii, you can do it online and they'll, they, they show you how to have group participation. And then all of the sudden, Africans who can afford it in the poorest part of Africa, they're saying, the church is delivering more to me than I could ever give to it. I, I will, for example, if I get a bachelor's degree in a country like Botswana, which has 1.2 million, it's desert. The people are very poor. They're bred on agriculture. And the Botswana government, they love their people and they are very excited about organizations that bring in educational opportunities. So you come in and you say to a little African per, you know, an African child, you know, we have, we have primary for you, then we have mutual for you, then we help you with your goals, then we put you on a mission. And what's more, when you get back, you can afford to get a bachelor's degree from a, from a great university in America. And, and in a major that makes you bucks. And so you get. But the people of Botswana turned on to the new efficient church. Plus the new services of the church. And the education part is the secret sauce. BYU Provo is the crown jewel of the church. And next is BYU Idaho, BYU Hawaii. And if it's the crown jewel for us in America who are members of the church, just think what it is to an African child in a poor country like in Botswana and they can afford it and it gets them a better living. They're not going to quibble about tithing. They're not going to quibble about, you know, the golden plates they're going to

John Dehlin [01:37:00] say, or the black priesthood ban that was lifted in 78.

Roger Hendrix [01:37:05] And plus, yeah, and plus we don't have to worry about that because we're in bed with the naacp and our president of the church has addressed their national conference twice. And so as blacks communicate, blacks in America communicates with blacks in Africa. Hey, this is. These guys are okay. You don't have to worry about what they were. It's what they are right now. Plus, they're going to offer you a bachelor's degree, you know, if you're a Mormon. Well, you're not a Mormon anymore. You're a Christian Latter Day Saint. And there. And it makes the difference. That is the difference. And so when, so I believe the church, its best bet is to go into these poor countries and start the church, teach them on the church programs which are delivered very efficiently, cost efficiently, but the quality is still there. And then give them BYU pathways,

John Dehlin [01:38:25] the

Roger Hendrix [01:38:25] growth of the church will increase, not decrease. And that's the trend, I think, that is taking place. That's what I think is between the lines that people have to see about where the church and its programs are going. And I believe that in Africa that will be the cradle of great population for the church. And I believe that Africans will make a lot of money. And I believe that as we throw our ore into the educational sea there it will pay off and we'll be known for that. And we give much more than we get. In other words, the church gives you more than you get. And so I don't think tithing will be an issue. I don't think the priesthood banned, not when you're making more money and not when you're educated and not when you come from a desert that's just poor. And I became interested in Botswana and see how that country closed down to the church and now has opened up to the church. And right now, the last article I read about BYU Pathways, I think in all of the countries that, where the church resides that they now have something like 5,000 people signed up for BYU Pathways. And it's only been in there a couple years. It hasn't been in there 11 years like it has in the spawning grounds of America. And whoever came up with that came up with the big idea, right?

Tithing Strategy and Cost-Cutting Measures

John Dehlin [01:40:41] So I've got a million questions about that when I watch the first of all, I think that's really important. I think that is describing what we're seeing. The first question I had is when I watched Going Clear, the documentary about Scientology, the conclusion is sign because of defections, which we're going to talk about in a second. Because of leaks, because of high level defections and the Internet, Scientology, the membership is in decline, but they're richer than ever and buildings are becoming empty. But, but they're richer than ever and they're more powerful and more successful than ever. So it's this weird situation and that's why I brought up what, what does success mean? Because it just depends on how you're measuring it. And again, tithing's down, right? I'm sure tithing is down or tithing growth is down in the Mormon Church, especially after Covid, but revenues up, like the church is making money hand over fist. And within 10 to 30 years we'll be not just a $200 billion church, we're going to be a trillion dollar church. We're going to be like competing with, with Google and Amazon for the wealthy, Walmart for like the wealthiest corporation on the planet. Because that's just what 7% growth does, you know, over time of your core financial assets. Do you, you know, and so when you talk about cost cutting, you know, the things that I think about are, you know, having Members clean the chapels instead of janitors. I think of having families pay more for missionaries, you know, than the church pays for missionaries. You know, there are all sorts of ways the church can cut costs. Oh, using service missionaries, you know, to staff corporate positions at church headquarters. Like, those are the things that come to my mind. And then of course, I think about when I had some insiders in the church, and I always do, telling me, you know, sort of basically trying to play with models out of Africa where the church doesn't really expect Africa to be giving money to the, to, to the corporate headquarters, but the corporate headquarters doesn't want to be sinking a lot of money into Africa and so finding ways and models for Africa to be financially self sufficient so there won't be a drain, you know, so, so, so anything you want to talk about? Cost cutting measures? Did I hit a lot of them? Are there others that I'm missing? And then also like. So let's start there. Cost cutting measures. Anything else you want to highlight about cost cutting measures that I didn't say? Because I think that's interesting. I think that's important.

Roger Hendrix [01:43:25] Well, you know, those are cost cutting measures when they have volunteers do things that ordinarily they had paid people to do. I'm also thinking about like staffing the professional arm of the church, the bureaucrats that you have to have when you have an organization's corporate or religious. And so they start saying, well, can we, Instead of having 10 employees in X organization, can we do it with 8?

John Dehlin [01:44:11] So downsizing or downsizing, layoffs. By the way, I did receive reports from inside church headquarters that during COVID there were layoffs and firings. And that's got to be viewed as a cost cutting measure, right? Yeah.

Roger Hendrix [01:44:25] And you have to understand. And employees of the church have to understand they're not working for the church column one or for the doctrine column two. They're working for the corporation of the president. They're working for the kingdom of God, for the theocracy, for the government of the church. And it would be foolish for them not to try and do more with less. Even in the professional arm, they. And they do. They will do that. And you know, you have very expensive presiding bishopric offices in every major country or region of the world, and sometimes they cut back on their professional staff. So that's the type of thing I'm talking about. Can you continue to deliver the service at less cost? And one of the ways you do that is to. It's not so much downsizing. It is getting the right size that you can do it because you always over hire when you get things started and you become more efficient as you go down line. So those things, and there are dozens of other things I'm thinking about, for example byu, that when they have to make changes in their buildings, what they, they have a schedule and a building that instead of destroying the building, building a new building, they have a schedule where they replace the windows at a certain time in the life of that building. And then on doors, instead of replacing the whole door, they replace the knobs that you use to get into a building. And so probably the most cost efficient organization I've been a part of, either in my management consulting or at any other time has been what the church has been doing with its efficiency but still maintaining its quality. And so I think that they have every right to do it. They're doing it. And we sometimes think that these guys are just sitting back and not trying to figure out how they can get their growth accelerating again. Now one of the ways that they can do this, this is just a footnote, is the measurements we use to determine whether the church is growing or shrinking is up against the total number of membership records we hold. I think if you use the membership of how many people have temple recommends and are in the temple and paying their tithing against how many people are joining the church, you're going to get a different metric. But nevertheless I use the, the, the old number that everybody else uses and, and so that's it, John. So we've got to ask more compelling questions I think because I sound like the biggest apologist I've ever heard.

John Dehlin [01:48:48] No, no you don't. More questions though. So some would say if the church is like almost richer than God at this point, 120 billion, soon to be a trillion. Some would say tithing doesn't matter because literally if you, if you take the, you know, seven, an average annual return of 7% on 120 billion, and then you take what is estimated to be the annual budget of the corporation of the president of the church, which let's say is, you know, 5 or 6 or 7 billion, the church could literally live off the interest of its current investment assets and not need a dollar more of the churches of the members tithing, but they're still getting the tithing and they're getting the return on investment. And so like some would say the church has got to be like just loving life, feeling like it's just the biggest success story on the planet. Like you said, it's richer than the Catholic Church, it's in the Fortune 500 if not the Fortune 100, if not the Fortune 5 50. If somebody were to say, oh, the brother, not worried at all, they don't care about tithing, they're richer than God at this point, what would you say to someone who said the brethren aren't worried about tithing, they don't need it, or that the church doesn't need tithing?

Roger Hendrix [01:50:11] True or not true, the church needs the, the leadership of the church has, has concluded that tithing is important. It's a key to the future of the church. That gets into my last trend there, and that is. Would you read it?

John Dehlin [01:50:36] You want to jump to the last one?

Roger Hendrix [01:50:38] Well, that's, it's okay.

John Dehlin [01:50:39] Number six, which becomes, I think, number three or four. The leadership will continue to make the church a high demand religion. Tithing is core cost benefit analysis versus tithing. So yes, let's talk about, let's dive in. I'm sorry, is it going out of order okay, or is that distressing?

Roger Hendrix [01:50:58] Fine, it's fine.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] Okay, okay.

Roger Hendrix [01:50:59] It's great.

John Dehlin [01:50:59] So let's talk about it.

Roger Hendrix [01:51:00] Okay. So I, I think the leadership of the church is going to hold tight to being a high demand religion. One of the reasons is that if you have a high demand religion and you don't have as many members as you thought you would have by 2065, you still have a powerful religion because people are still sacrificing for it, giving their lives for it. And so the leadership of the church, I think, has determined that they're going to remain a high demand religion. And there are two things that determine what a high demand membership is, and that is you will pay your tithing and you will have a temple recommend. Now that's, and I think there, there's another strategy that goes along with that, and I think I have that right down there. What strategy did I put down there?

John Dehlin [01:52:07] Well, you talked about tithing in a temple. Oh, no, no, no. Okay. You said cost benefit occurs on the part of the payer. You have to increase the benefit for the same amount of cost. Is that what you mean?

Roger Hendrix [01:52:19] Well, let me just put this. There's a strategy that is just called milk and maintain.

John Dehlin [01:52:25] Milk and maintain. Yeah, that's your third point.

Roger Hendrix [01:52:27] Okay, and what does that mean? That's where you have profit and don't fool around with success. And so you milk, you, you milk your profits in a company and you maintain for as long as you possibly can. And the church has said we're, we're just going to continue to ask for tithing and a temple recommend that keeps us in the high demand category.

John Dehlin [01:52:57] And that's milk and maintain.

Roger Hendrix [01:52:59] That's milk and maintain. Yeah. You know, you can, in any company, you milk the profits and you maintain your position until somebody knocks you off that position.

John Dehlin [01:53:10] If it ain't broke, don't fix it type of thing.

Roger Hendrix [01:53:13] And so the thing that the church has been successful at is slowly but surely building a very dedicated group of disciples. And those disciples pay their tithing no matter how much the church has in its vaults, you know, and, and, and they have a temple recommend, and that's why they're building all these temples all around the world. They're not as big as we used to, they're smaller. But it gets people in the temple. You put that garment on, you get them making covenants, you get them pain tithing. You have powerful people now. Now there is, there is a downside to this, and that is now that we know that there's $130 billion, you know, rocks in the box that we have, there are going to be a sizable number of people in the church who are going to do a cost benefit analysis. They're going to say, like Jana Reese said, she's pretty open about it, hey, I pay my tithing, but I don't pay to the church now. I pay my tithing to what I think are charities or people who can really benefit from it. I don't appreciate $130 billion in the

John Dehlin [01:54:54] bank not being used for charitable purposes right now.

Roger Hendrix [01:54:58] You don't know that it won't be used someday for charitable purposes. You know, it's just sitting there. So, you know, you, you can assume that they won't, but as of yet, they aren't. So you just, you, you're going to get a lot of people and they're already starting cost benefit analysis for what I get, for what I give. What do I get? And, and the church doesn't need my tithing. And in fact, the church is, is very, very rich. Don't tell me it isn't. Don't tell me. You know, the, the brethren look out for the widows. My to. They, they, they're. They're loaded, and I'm not loaded. And I don't know that I'm willing to pay tithing for what I get. The Sunday school, teaching, it's, it's not that cool, you know, sacrament meeting, the, the talks are the same from year to year. I'm not getting anything out of this thing. And so they're going to do that and they're going to be a portion of people who stop paying their tithing. That's the downside of milking and maintaining. And you still get a boatload of tithing coming in. And it's enough to run the programs of the church on a cost effective basis. And so the church is going to hold tight on that for the foreseeable future. They're not going to let up on pain, tithing and having a temple recommend, even if it's pittance in Africa. And what they're doing is looking way down line and they're saying, you know, 20 years from now we're going to have 500,000 African latter day Saints who are the executives of these corporations in Africa and, and who isn't investing in Africa these days? You have China in there and the Belt and Road programs. You, you have billions of dollars improving the health of Africans. I mean, they're coming up. They're coming up and if you educate them, they're going to be making more money. And the church understands that. And that BYU Pathways, that's a beautiful thing, that's delivering a BYU education without having to go to byu. That's cost effective. The services, the quality is the same, but the cost is not prohibitive. Right.

The James Huntsman Lawsuit and Charitable Giving

John Dehlin [01:58:06] Let's talk quickly about Ensign Peak. This week was historic because James Huntsman, a dear friend of mine, son of John Huntsman Senior, who was an area authority and a well known Mormon, you know, business titan and philanthropist and area authority James Huntsman, younger brother of John Huntsman Jr. Presidential candidate, files a federal lawsuit in the state of California suing the church for fraud. And talking about David Nielsen, the former employee of Ensign Peak, who was a whistleblower, who announced to the public that the only two expenditures he knew coming out of Inside Peak for all these tens of billions of dollars the church was amassing, only going to two things. The beneficial life insurance company to bail it out and you know, the City Creek Mall. To, to purchase and maintain a mall. That made David Nielsen mad. He felt like that was not accurately, that was not the behavior of a charity or of a religion. That was more the behavior of a business. So James Huntsman files a lawsuit. It's in the Washington Post, it's, it's international news, Wall Street Journal. It's a big deal. Let me just ask you, number one. And now that we know David. Thank you, David Nielsen, for your whistleblowing. Now that we know that the church is just saving and investing the money and not really doing much in philanthropy. Prior to this whistleblowing act. The church wasn't spending a lot of annual money on global charity or philanthropy. They've had to go back and kind of try and rewrite history to make it look like they were doing a lot more philanthropy than they really were. And maybe now they're going to start upping their global philanthropy because they've been shamed and embarrassed into doing it. Why hasn't the church been saying, hey, instead of investing in Coca Cola and Tesla and GameStop and McDonald's and, you know, t bills and whatever, why hasn't the church been acting like more. More like goodwill or, you know, Catholic charities or whatever, you know, delivering water to people without water, clean water, you know, fighting poverty, fighting hunger, you know, global disasters, aids, you know, immunizations, illness, sicknesses. Like the Bill Melinda Gates Foundation. Do you have any insight into why the brethren have not prioritized global charity and philanthropy with their hoards of cash? Any idea how they talk about that now? They think about it. It.

Roger Hendrix [02:00:41] That question has several prongs to it. One, you're assuming that they haven't upped their humanitarian aid Prior to the scandals, you mean. Well, maybe they have upped them since that time.

John Dehlin [02:01:00] Yeah, they may have. That's not my point. If they have, it seems like they were forced to. It would seem that way.

Roger Hendrix [02:01:06] It may be, but you can't say they. They. They haven't done these things in the past. I'm thinking of primary Children's hospital, which is world renowned now, and that was started, you know, pennies donated. I can remember in Primary when I gave pennies for the primary drive. Primary Children's Hospital drive. And so the church. So you. Let. Let me try and get a more simple answer. One, because. That, because people sue you doesn't mean, you know, you're gonna. It forces your hand. In other words, I, I don't believe anything will come of these lawsuits, but let's just say something does happen. Well, it will. It will happen based upon the. The. The money that they gave that wasn't for a charity like in the City Creek Mall or beneficial life insurance. Okay, so let's say that the church gave beneficial life insurance $350 million. Well, that's what their liability is for. $350 million. And so they would have to forfeit $350 million. They'd have to pay a fine. Well, that. Okay, that's just kind of a pittance compared to your statement that eventually the church will have a trillion dollars. I mean, it can be sued and it can make deals, but there's not going to be a court in the land or an agency in Washington D.C. that's going to sue the church for a full $130 billion. It's going to sue it for what it neglected to observe. And that was charity, education, etc. And that will take years. And the church isn't going to turn over based on that. And James Huntsman, you know, he wants his tithing returned to him. $5 million. Well, he's talking about tithing and the church is under no obligation to have to return the tithing. When you give a free will offering to the church like that. Well, he says they, they, they weren't honest with me. Well, that'll take a long time. And so these lawsuits are, these lawsuits are like stones in the ocean that they're there, but it doesn't disrupt the, the workings of the ocean on a day to day and hour to hour basis or not that much. And so I'm not worried about that. But now I'm talking as a business person. Any entrepreneur that I know of, and I am an entrepreneur. In your life, you see a lot of lawsuits. And so you know that these things are settled out of court, they're settled

John Dehlin [02:05:02] secretly if they're not dismissed.

Roger Hendrix [02:05:05] And usually they are dismissed. The average lawsuit I've been involved in takes four to six years to sort out. And so the church is not worried about that. They are worried, I would think about what we have just talked about. People know how much money there is in the bank and so they start doing a cost benefit analysis. But on the other hand, you know, the church is also rearing up. Rearing is raising up a generation of very dedicated people who are receiving services like BYU Pathways. And now I want to divert just a little bit. Let's take, I want to, I've been thinking recently about a model. You, a model African child who is baptized in the church at 8. And so they go through the programs of the church and when they're young, little kids, like primaries, they like the association. And then let's just take a male, eventually he graduates from primary and he becomes a deacon. And he might get a little bit of leadership opportunity as deacon and then as a teacher and then as a priest. And so he's gone through these programs. The church has helped him make goals. Maybe he has made some goals, maybe he hasn't made others. Boom, he hits 18. He's out in the mission field now. When I was a mission president with some of the, the, the Chilean missionaries who came and were a part of my mission. The church paid for their, their clothes, it paid for their, their monthly allowance. And the Chileans like that a lot. And I would imagine they're doing the same with African 18 year olds. And so an African goes out on a mission for two years. Let's say he's from Botswana and he goes up north to the Congo and it's, the church is doing this efficiently. He's not putting him in the United States, you know, with all the costs associated that. But Botswana, a poor little kid who is able to take a train ride or even a plane ride into the Congo, his life is changing. And so he learns the lessons, the missionary lessons, and he learns how to get up in the morning, he learns hygiene, he learns discipline. And then he returns home after two

John Dehlin [02:08:17] years

Roger Hendrix [02:08:19] and then all of a sudden somebody says to him, guess what, elder, we have BYU pathways. And so all of the sudden this kid is in a four year program and all of a sudden he turns 25, 26 years old. He has been able to afford it. He has a bachelor's degree and. Here comes Apple Computer into Botswana and they're hiring kids with a bachelor's degree

John Dehlin [02:08:59] in marketing who speak good English and have good communication skills, right?

Roger Hendrix [02:09:04] Yeah. And this kid is going to make 50, 60, 70, $100,000. And so that's the model that I think people have to see that is going on. And I don't think the church in all reality, it is expecting everybody to stay active, you know, just keep cutting it in half. Cut it in half? Cut it in half?

John Dehlin [02:09:37] What? In half?

Roger Hendrix [02:09:38] And those who enter into the pipeline, you know, you realize that when you get down to it, maybe 20% will stick. And then of that 20%, 10 will percent will get into the temple and of that 10%, 5 will stay there. And with that 5% who are in that temple and they're getting educated along the way and they're hardcore. And so you have, you, you have little areas of strength built around those temples all around the world. And it doesn't matter if there are a lot or there are a few, if they've passed through all of that, these guys are going to get married and they're going to have little kiddies and they'll, the little kitties will be had, go the same route that their parents went. And so what I'm saying is that I understand as a business person that you go down, but what you do is you find ways to really give new services and it goes up. If you're dedicated enough. And, and so, you know, if I had to put my money on the future of the church, it's in Africa. And I would say you're going to probably be looking over the next 50 years, you're looking at 2,3 million Mormons in Africa. And there'll be CEOs of companies, there'll be professors at universities, they will be Formula One race car drivers. You didn't catch that, did you?

John Dehlin [02:11:37] No, I did. Formula, race car drivers, everything. Right. I mean it's, I think what you're saying is that there's, you can, you can, you know, there's the old give a man a fish or teach a man to fish. There's helping him get water and helping them get sanitation and in preventing disease and you know, all the ways that you can provide some of that kind of maslow lowest, lowest level maslow help of food and water and shelter and sanitation. And what I think I hear you saying is, is the church wants to help and build healthy, strong people. But it's basically saying we're going to do that at a bit of a higher level in the Maslow triangle. We're going to provide them with community, we're going to provide them with life skills, we're going to provide them with an education, we're going to provide them with job opportunities. That's where we're going to target our focus and our emphasis. And we're just going to leave the mosquito nets and the water, you know, water cleansing and the food delivery, we're going to leave that to the Catholic Charities or to Goodwill or to Red Cross disaster recovery. We're just, that's just not our, that's not the way we want to invest in people's well being. But what I hear you saying is not only the church is very invested in the well being of its members in the developing world, that it's actually meaningfully helping and contributing to their well being. They're just doing it a little bit higher up the Maslow's triangle. I, I don't mean to try and rephrase what you're saying, but like that's what I'm getting from what you're saying.

Roger Hendrix [02:13:21] I think you're right. I think that's the bigger strategic vision of the church into the future. And, and some people say, well that's so simple. Yeah, you know, you don't need to be very smart to understand that. Well, if you're so smart, how come you didn't understand it? And so, yeah, okay. And to a business person this makes good sense because it guarantees your survivability. It guarantees your growth. It guarantees that your executives are not sitting around worrying and twiddling their thumbs. They're out there finding ways to solve problems. And fulfill the mandate of the church.

John Dehlin [02:14:21] Two more questions. That was a great avenue to pursue. I'm really glad you jumped on that. I think you're spot on and I love it. Couple. I want to go back just quickly to Inside Peak and James Huntsman just for a couple more things. And this isn't about James Huntsman per se, but it's about David Nielsen and Lars Nielsen and all the members that are mad about City Creek Mall or they're mad about Ensign Peak. There are a couple more questions I have. Number one, there's this question of is it appropriate for the church to be investing billions of dollars in bailing out an insurance company or in purchasing a commercial, you know, conspicuous consumption, materialistic mall that somehow that's not what Jesus would do. That somehow that's not what churches should be doing. What are your responses to people that are angry or sad or frustrated that the church, again, you've said they're not going to be involved in this type, certain type of philanthropy. But they're also, you know, because one thing they could do is like, pay. They could use the Ensign Peak money to just pay for a free education for way more people than just the Mormons. Like, they could invest that $120 billion in education and just provide BYU pathways to even more people. But they're not doing that. But they are buying a commercial mall, you know, with the, whatever Tiffany's or Victoria's Secret or Rolex or whatever it is, and they're bailing out a failed insurance company, which is somebody's like, on Amazon. Alexa just kicked off Alexa stop. We have an Alexa stop. Somehow we just triggered Alexa. So. So what do you say to. What do you say to that concern, Roger? Is that a fair critique of the church or is that, is that a naive or a simplistic critique? Is it unfair? Is the church being super smart or in some way, is that a bad use of. Of an unethical or immoral use of money to the church for a church to be using?

How to Evaluate the Ensign Peak Controversy

Roger Hendrix [02:16:35] Yeah. Let me give the simplest answer I can think of. If you're just thinking about column one, the church, or column two, the doctrine, you'll miss the whole point of what the. What the Kingdom of God on Earth is all about the leadership of the church at the very, very highest levels. They understand that it is a theocracy. They just don't say it. And in Utah. They are the most powerful entity in Utah. That's not going to stop. They even have impact over the legislators on the hill. Now is there anything wrong with that? No, that's what you do to be able to survive and thrive. And thrive. And so when you're in that column three, the theocracy, the kingdom of God on earth. They're talking about a lot of things and they're talking and what they are doing with their money is a long term investment. Now why don't they invest any of their 130 billion right now? Well, they don't need to. Well, they did with beneficial life insurance. Okay, we're going to sue them. The church is only liable for that 350 billion plus interest probably.

John Dehlin [02:18:20] 350 million, right?

Roger Hendrix [02:18:21] Yeah, 350 million. Did I say 350 billion? Just thinking 350 million. So if that's the lawsuit, that's, that's what the church is liable for. They would just pay it off and it's a knit and they'll continue on. And there is nothing in the law that says a church can't get wealthy. And I don't know that money is immoral. Money is the way by which we trade goods and services. And the church evidently has done a good job and they can do whatever they want with the money. And if they say that that 130 billion has to go for education, for charities and reaching out, well, they haven't seen a need yet. They don't do it until they don't do it. I mean you can't charge them for something that they have in reserv that they will spend it and then if they spend it on something that is wrong, then go after him. But until that time there is no case now. Yeah, there is no case.

John Dehlin [02:19:53] I don't care about the case as much as the ethics or the morals.

Roger Hendrix [02:19:57] What are the ethics and morals? What are they doing wrong?

John Dehlin [02:20:00] So some would say Jesus taught, the Book of Mormon teaches materialism's bad. Fine. Costly apparel is bad. Consumption is bad. Jesus message was around saying, be loving and kind. You're a lily in the field. The rich people, it is harder for, you know, it's harder, you know, it's hard for a rich person to even enter the kingdom of heaven. And they're, they're buying a consumer shopping mall with a Rolex and a Tiffany's and you know, whatever, Victoria's secret that it's just not, it's not, not congruent with the teachings of the Book of Mormon. It's not congruent with the teachings of Jesus. And it's just not Christlike. Like, you think churches, you think charity, you don't think churches make a bunch of billion dollar investments in commercial shopping malls so that people can do what rich people do? You know, that's the critique.

Roger Hendrix [02:20:56] Well, again, if, if you understand what the Kingdom of God is all about, it's about those things. It services all people. It doesn't necessarily mean it wears costly apparel, but it makes costly apparel for the people who have the money. And then you make a profit off of that. I don't know. I think we're okay. I am a business person. I have spent 35 years of my life building up a management consulting firm that has helped me and my family to have a degree of wealth. And so what do I spend it on? You know, right now we spend it on the University of Utah in certain programs that we think will benefit the community. And we have that money and we do it, and we do it as a free will offering. We decide on what to do. And so you're talking to a person who. I don't believe that because a church makes money that's immoral. The equivalent of that would be people who get rich are immoral. And then you're into a different philosophy. You're into. And that's how I would answer that question.

Transparency, Leaks, and Institutional Honesty

John Dehlin [02:22:57] Okay, last, last question in this realm. And then we'll move on to the next point. There are a lot of people who feel like the church was dishonest with Ensign Peak, with the mall, with other things. Because, you know, there have been various statements when the public became aware of City Creek and became aware of Ensign Peak and became aware of the 120 billion where whether it's the presiding bishop or Thomas S. Monson or Gordon Mehinkely or whatever, they'll make a statement to the church members saying no tithing was used on City Creek Mall. No tithing was used in inappropriate ways. You know, never has tithing been used for commercial things or inappropriate things, you know, and, and, and there are many who believe that's just dishonest, that tithing has been used or that if tithing gets put into Ensign Peak as investments, and then the tithing plus the interest then gets used on City Creek Mall or Beneficial Life, that's still using the tithing. And so you're deceiving and misleading the membership when you continually make these claims that no tithing is being used. What's your answer to that concern? Is there deception?

Roger Hendrix [02:24:15] I think that's my third trend on my original chart, and that is the church came up against a critical issue and that is it started. The church started leaking like a sieve.

John Dehlin [02:24:34] Okay, I'll read that point. The leadership will invest great amounts to ensure there will be no more leaks. That leaks. Critical issues. Leaks become showstoppers. All hands on deck. I'm thinking of Leah Remini and Mike of the guy just had a Mormon Stories podcast render, you know, high profile defections or important leaks from within the church. You're saying that's a trend and it's a major concern. But I don't want to lose the question of has the Church misled us? Okay, so let's talk about leaks, but please answer that question.

Roger Hendrix [02:25:13] Okay, well, the leak, it was leaked by insiders and outsiders, right? I mean, Nielsen wasn't the only guy who leaked this. We had. What's that? You know, one podcast, Mormon leaks.

John Dehlin [02:25:31] Or Ryan McKnight or.

Roger Hendrix [02:25:33] Yeah, or Mormon. Whatever it was. So the guy from the outside got information and published it where he said, there are 40 or 60 billion dollars in 13 accounts. Then Nielsen, who is an intern insider, then told the world, no, it's a hundred billion plus.

John Dehlin [02:25:57] Right.

Roger Hendrix [02:25:58] And whoops. Oh, really? Well, you never told us that. And, and, and, and so that, so the church was not able to keep that a secret. Now, there are two parts to that. The one part is you never want to get caught having secrets that people discover that take them by surprise. Why? Because you lose trust. But the problem in the world today is we're probably, we have entered a period where there are no more secrets. If people want to find out every bit of information about you and about the church and about Catholicism, they now can do it. The digital revolution is a revolution indeed. And it's not going to get any better. It will probably topple governments and churches. It, and it's a, it is the, it is a raw form of democracy. So much where it becomes a mobocracy. A what? Mobocracy.

John Dehlin [02:27:27] Mob ocracy. Yeah, that was M O B. Mob ocracy. Okay.

Roger Hendrix [02:27:32] It's leadership through mobs.

John Dehlin [02:27:34] Okay.

Roger Hendrix [02:27:35] You know, like January 6th and on our capital. And so you don't want to get caught having a secret that you did not want to reveal to your family or to your client base. And it takes them by surprise. $100 billion plus took the church by surprise. And people then went back and started combing through the words that have been said or over the years. And although the words may be almost sufficient, they weren't absolutely sufficient. And they didn't share that information with the church at large. And the growth of that fund just was so successful, after a while, Roger Clark says, we don't exactly know what you know when asked the question, I don't know what we're going to do with the money.

John Dehlin [02:28:36] And so he was being honest. Right. And I think, I think it's even been reported that that Oaks, maybe even Oaks and Nelson didn't know that the church had that much money because that the church's financial holdings are really on a need to know basis. And I guess up until they reached the highest levels of the First Presidency, they didn't need need to know. And so they didn't know. Is that. Am I speaking out of truth here?

Roger Hendrix [02:29:02] There were only seven people who knew the amount of money in that fund. The three members of the First Presidency, the three members of the Presiding Bishopric, and Roger Clark. And so when Boyd Packer went up to Roger Clark and said, well, how much money do we have in that? And Roger Clark, who certainly does not have the priesthood rank, that Boyd Packer has said, I've been told I can't tell you, Elder Packer. And that's when he was the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. And so they kept the lid on that and then it broke loose. Now the part is. The church must not. It must be able to make sure there are no more leaks, especially if they are compromising leaks, because you continue to lose the trust of the members of the church. As I said before, the problem with that is there are no more secrets. And so if there are no more secrets, then you also run the risk of losing your majestic power. Because power at a certain point is determined by the secret you hold that the others don't have, like a first anointing and a second anointing. And. And then all of a sudden we find out that we, we know what kind of temple garments, garb is worn, we know what the words are said, we know what's said in the second anointing. We now know a hundred billion dollars well, where is our majestic power? You know, and when you kind of lose that majestic power because there are no more secrets that you're able to share with just a select few, then you say to yourself, how majestic is this movement we are a part of? If everybody knows about it, what's special about it? And that's a critical issue. That's the most critical issue that the church will face and how transparent can it become? And once it becomes absolutely transparent, you then say, and if you have a feeling that it will become transparent because there will continually be leaks. One of the more embarrassing parts was somebody leaked the session that where the twelve apostles get around a semicircle and, and things are presented to them that they listen to and, and like, like Gong.

John Dehlin [02:32:16] Right. Like he was the presenter. And you've got them talking about politics and senators and you've got senators presenting to the quorum of the 12 and they're talking about LGBT LBT stuff and same sex marriage and their strategies. Yeah, that was super embarrassing when that stuff got leaked.

Roger Hendrix [02:32:35] And then you have the bubble presentation that was leaked that brought your name into fame and Kate Kelly and others.

John Dehlin [02:32:45] Oh no, Kate Kelly wasn't named. No ordained women was named. It was me and me and Denver Snuffer and Robert Norman. Robert Norman, yeah. And all the enemies of the church. Right.

Roger Hendrix [02:32:57] And so. But you're not the members. We don't. The members actually know what the quorum of 12, what their action items are going to be by a bubble presentation. That is supposed. That's super secret. If I were a member of the 12, I would be livid on that because then what happens is people begin to anticipate your actions. And when they anticipate your actions, then they will move in a direction where you can't be touched by this majestic power. And so this is the critical issue. This goes beyond strategies. This is a problem that is vexing. And so I think now I'm not sure, but I think starting with President Hinckley, it's open the vaults, tell everybody what you have. And pretty soon we're going to, you know, in general conference they'll tell you how much money they have in the kitty. And I think all of that will come. Now, does that negate their ministry in getting a tithe payer and a temple recommend holder in the temple to become strong and mighty over the generations? No, it's a problem. Will it sink the church? No. Nobody has ever been sued for $130 billion. I mean, you know, maybe they could be sued for a hundred for a billion dollars, but that's chicken feet. And, and if, and, and I think if you don't like what they're doing, you know, just leave and you know, don't get so worried about it. And if you think the church has done you wrong, well, like James Huntsman did, okay, bring a lawsuit. I'm not so sure that James Huntsman has been through enough lawsuits to know how ugly those things are. Because when you file the lawsuit, you've got to keep pushing it against the. The defendants, which in this case would be the church. That's hard. And in the meantime, church is doing BYU pathways. It's. And, and one thing I want to correct. It's not that we don't do or the church doesn't do humanitarian aid. We put a lot of food into places where there is a disaster relief and hunger. I just want to put that. Okay, so that's my story. I'm sticking with it.

High-Profile Defections and the Fortress Strategy

John Dehlin [02:36:16] What about the possibility of high profile defections? We've had Hans Mattsson, we had Enzio Boucher. Sort of like, you know, indirectly it be revealed that he lost his faith, but that was well after he was retired. A lot of people think that if we have like a Mike Rinder, high level defection.

Roger Hendrix [02:36:39] Who's Mike Rinder?

John Dehlin [02:36:40] Mike Rinder's with Scientology. And I interviewed him recently and he was like David.

Roger Hendrix [02:36:45] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [02:36:45] He was David Miscavige's right hand man.

Roger Hendrix [02:36:47] Okay, okay.

John Dehlin [02:36:48] So a lot of people just are wondering why haven't we had an apostle or even, you know, why isn't Dieter Uchtdorf, you know, defected after he was demoted from the first presidency? And I don't want to, you know, get sidetracked on that question specifically, but for those who are wanting or hoping to see some high profile defection. Defection, or who are just curious as to why there hasn't been one. Do you have any insider. Has it been more of those? Do you have an insider's view on how they keep those things from happening?

Roger Hendrix [02:37:23] Okay, this is an organizational strategy. We know that when organizations get bigger, what happens is that the elite few, let's say the top 20 positions in a corporation, they get separated away from all the other executives who were very important before the organization got big. So we know that when an organization gets big enough and you have to hire more executives, the top executive council or group of executives, they become more powerful and they become a little more alienated from the tier of high executives who just didn't make the cut in the highest. At the highest level. Well, that's happened in the church. You have you. All of these 70s, you have. Now, it used to be that there used to be just 7-70s and they were close with the apostles, and the apostles were close to them. It was a tight group. And then all of a sudden they implemented a new organizational strategy. And where they had quorums of 70s, now they have a flood of 70s. And those, and the 12 just do not have the relationship with those 70s. And those 12 in the first parenthesis. They keep, they, they keep their counsel. They don't go out and find their favorite 70 and share with him. And there is no 70 that has a powerful word that can sway the brethren, like P.H. roberts may have, or tried to do their managers to keep the programs of the church going. And so, and so you're going to have defections from the seventies. You already have. Paul Dunn basically was a, was a tragic example of that. And then you have Hans Madsen. And then you have this one guy, his name starts with an H. And then you, and then you have the Indian who was excommunicated. I mean, that's just going to happen now.

John Dehlin [02:40:19] George Lee. George P. Lee.

Roger Hendrix [02:40:20] George Lee. And then the guy whose name starts with an H. Hamilton. Okay. He's excommunicated. Well, there's a message here, isn't there? And that is when the, when the power moves away from guys you've always thought of as really powerful. These guys don't feel as powerful. Well, they're not as powerful. They're not as close to the, to the heart of the leadership of the church. And so on a percentage basis, you're always going to have a fallout in a company. We always plan for a fallout of executives at a certain point where they just go, they just don't make it. They either get into trouble one way or the other. And so you, and so if people are preoccupied or are interested in. High ranking individuals being excommunicated from the church, just get used to it. There's a certain percentage who will come and go at every level. That's a straight, that is a statistical, high statistical probability that happens with any group. Now, now you're saying, well, what about now, the 12 apostles and, and the first presidency? Well, will we have a fallout from them? Yeah. You know, eventually there will be somebody who falls out or had a secret here or there. Yeah. You know, and will it make a big difference? Maybe, you know, over a weekend in general conference, it'll be the talk. And then it just, you know, the ocean just continues.

John Dehlin [02:42:28] The kingdom rolls on. It does the stone cut out of the mountain without hands, rolls forth.

Roger Hendrix [02:42:33] Yeah. If Dieter Uchtdorf were to, you know, buck the system, you know, that would be news for a certain group. But the organization is too big to get too preoccupied with any one movement like that. So. No, no, it doesn't bother me. Will it happen? Yes.

John Dehlin [02:43:01] Will it make a big difference?

Roger Hendrix [02:43:02] Will it make It.

John Dehlin [02:43:03] No. Okay.

Roger Hendrix [02:43:04] No.

John Dehlin [02:43:05] Well, I think we're at 0.6. I think we're at the last one. And you've addressed it somewhat, but I'm going to read it anyway. The leadership will play hard to deepen its major strengths in Utah. Strengths are theocracy and money. And I can read the sub bullets if you want, but, but you know, this is interesting for me, like just the, you know, the same sex marriage thing. It seems like the church got super grumpy. That same sex marriage, you know, was kind of first legalized in some ways in Utah, or at least Utah kicked off the chain of events that led to the national legalization of same sex marriage. But even this marijuana thing of a marijuana initiative coming up from the people and then like against the will of the legislature and I would say the church, all of a sudden medical marijuana is legalized in Utah. I'm sure that that was not something the church was super happy about. So I think this is something that's really interesting and at play. So what, what did you want to say about the six trend or strategy?

Can the Church Survive a Secular Society

Roger Hendrix [02:44:07] So what? Well, okay, I have a particular bias, and that is for all of the faults of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, these guys were among the top 10, 15 religious leaders in history. We don't understand what a big thing it was to take people and march them across this continent and settle them in the wilderness, you know, and, and basically build a new society, a new civilization. So I have a particular preference for Brigham Young now. Do I think he has to pay for his misdeeds like the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Yes. Just like every leader in history has done horrendous things. Okay? So I don't dismiss that. The guy came into this valley and he says, here it is. And they, and, and he, he actually said, you know, I'm building a theocracy. And Joseph wanted a theocracy. We can have democracy down at the lower levels, but on top, you have these religious leaders like you have in Iran who, who make sure that the people who get the judgeships and that are, have good, moral Muslim values. And so Brigham Young was no fool. He said, yeah, we're building the kingdom of God on earth here, a theocracy. And, and by and large that has held in Utah. And it's been basically the tithing from Utah that has built up its financial kingdom. And so the church is just not going to say we're, we're losing members and we'll go to zero and we're immoral and all that stuff. Hey, we fought for this stuff. This is, this is ours, you know, and if you want to take it away from us, you have a fight on your hands. We fought for it, we earned it. It's ours. And, and that which means Utah in its growth period, which will double in its population over the next 20 years and will become a very rich state, a diverse state. The church will still, even, will still be the most powerful entity. And that won't cease because it fought the battles, it won the wars, it took its prizes and it has nurtured them. And, and so you're going to find that the church will still be very powerful now. So it's written in the newspapers where in Salt Lake county we lost 5,000 members or something like that.

John Dehlin [02:47:46] Salt Lake county is becoming more non Mormon, more non Mormon. There's actually less active Mormons. They're more never Mormons or non Mormons in Salt Lake county and in Park City Summit county than there are believing Mormons. So there are counties in Utah that are becoming very secular and non Mormon. And then places like Utah county, probably, probably Cache Valley, probably what Summit Count. What is. No, what is the one in St. George County? What is that? The Southern. Yeah, those are even becoming more Mormon, right?

Roger Hendrix [02:48:20] More.

John Dehlin [02:48:21] Yeah.

Roger Hendrix [02:48:22] And so, so, so there may be, you know, a quid pro quo. There may be a give and take on that Utah Valley may become the center of Utah in the future with silicon slopes, for example. And so but let's go back to Salt Lake County. So it loses 5,000, has 5,000 fewer members. And those members that we do have are not as believing as they are in Utah County. Let's say that over the next 40 or 50 years, let's say over the next 30 years, the number of people in Salt Lake county who are Mormons are only 30%. Let me tell you, most every religion would die for having 30% of its population. And so that's not going to be resolved anytime soon. And that's. And, and so, yeah, losing members. But as I said, the church is probably instigating programs that are addressing that. For example, Jana Reese shared part of a survey that was given to her that the church has given out to members and makes you your. My eyes were blinking when I was reading these questions. They're raw and they talk about, you know, what doctrines bug you, what, what keeps you away as it's, is it our harshness? You know, these, now that's cool information they can use to lighten up or adjust. And they will adjust. We already know that. We established that the first hour of our meeting today on the product strategy, they're in adjustment mania. And so the church will be around. Now for those people who prefer not to be. So, so church bred, church broke, who'd like to be a secular Mormon and still would like to use the word Mormon but call themselves a secular Mormon, just do it. You know who's going to hurt you? There are no wolves coming out of the forest to eat you up. Just be who, who you want to be. And in a digital age, that's exactly what people are doing. They are deciding for themselves what they want to be and how they want to believe. And so, you know, you can be a cultural Mormon, you can be a secular Mormon, still be a Mormon, still be affiliated with the Church of Jesus Christ in Utah, but believe me, the church isn't going away. And as a matter of fact, that's where our stake is placed, Utah. And that won't go away. And that's my thinking on that one.

John Dehlin [02:52:06] There's a bullet on fortress strategy. Did you address the fortress strategy already?

Roger Hendrix [02:52:10] Okay, one of the strategies I use is when you're not only number one in a category in a business, you're the only one, then just keep building your fortress higher and higher and you'll, you'll, you'll basically remain the only one. Now there may be people who come and nip at your heels. You'll have to manage that. That's why we have a leadership of the church. But you, you've got to continue to invest in your, in the center of your strength. And that's why you're seeing all these temples popping up in Utah. And, and now let me put in a plug from a Southern Californian who is liberal and.

John Dehlin [02:53:11] You mean politically liberal.

Roger Hendrix [02:53:12] Yeah, politically liberal.

John Dehlin [02:53:15] And.

Roger Hendrix [02:53:19] Who is a secular Mormon who has been a really orthodox Mormon, but who's always had a secular flair. That used to bug my CES brethren and they thought I was a little worldly, which I was. And so. Let me put in a plug for. What was I going to put in a plug for?

John Dehlin [02:53:48] I don't know. We were talking about fortress, right? Yeah.

Roger Hendrix [02:53:52] Well, let's just stop there. I can't, I can't remember what I was going to say.

John Dehlin [02:53:56] Oh, secular Mormonism.

Roger Hendrix [02:53:58] Yeah, I, I'm, I'm, I'm.

John Dehlin [02:54:01] Yeah, yeah, no, he's awesome. He's doing brilliant.

Roger Hendrix [02:54:05] And so, yeah, I, I think you can be anything you want to be and still claim your identity.

John Dehlin [02:54:15] Right.

Roger Hendrix [02:54:16] If you want it to be close to, you know, your Mormon heritage and and after all we're, we're seeing that happen right now. And that happened in Judaism. You know, you have Reformed Judaism, the Hasidic Jews, you have Reformed Judaism, you have liberal Judaism and you have secular Jews and you have the same thing with Catholics. And we're starting to have that in the church.

John Dehlin [02:54:56] Is that a good thing?

Roger Hendrix [02:54:57] Yeah, I think that's a very good thing.

John Dehlin [02:55:00] To have secular Mormons.

Roger Hendrix [02:55:02] Oh yeah, I think you need, everybody can help and yeah, and I think they're probably more secular Mormons than you realize. I think you'll find that people in their private lives are far more private than you realize. But watch out because there will be no more secrets like the, the Good Housewives of Salt Lake City. You know, now these, some of these gals were just true blue Mormons. And, and, and when they reveal their secrets, you go, e Gads, what are we coming to? Well, there will always be a group of Hasidic Latter Day Saints and you just have to face it. That's what I was going to say. You know, in my years teaching the gospel doctrine, I've done that several times. This, you find this almost always, no matter what word you're in. So you put a particular concept on the board and you ask for input and immediately you might get a person who is still trying to work out their feelings about the church and they give off their opinion, which might be a little more liberal. Then immediately you'll get a really dyed in the wool Latter Day Saint Hasidic who fires back and then this person recoils and you can't recoil anymore. You just have to feel comfortable with the hand that's been dealt you. Be free, be relaxed, be yourself and search for your identity.

The Case for Secular Mormonism

John Dehlin [02:57:06] And what's the case for being a secular Mormon versus just an ex Mormon or a post Mormon or just forgetting about Mormonism and just, just being a human being. Why, why do you find compelling the, the identity of secular Mormon versus just forgetting Mormonism altogether?

Roger Hendrix [02:57:23] Well, it, it makes more sense. You can answer more questions and you can answer. And, and so like what? Like being a secular historian who looks through the, you know, all the different records and letters and finds out that Joseph never looked at the golden plates or never looked at the plates or never looked at the stuff in the book.

John Dehlin [02:57:58] Oh, you're saying you just have more knowledge, you're more rooted in truth and actual evidence based living versus fable and myth and superstition. Is that what you mean?

Roger Hendrix [02:58:10] Yeah. And, and it allows you to answer these questions more straightforwardly, more rationally.

John Dehlin [02:58:20] But see, I hear you saying why to be secular? What I'm asking is why to keep the Mormon part. Right?

Roger Hendrix [02:58:28] Oh, for me, personally, yeah. Yeah. 1873, great grandparents and grandparents, Danish converts coming over from Denmark, boom land in Salt Lake City, assigned out to southeastern Idaho, then moved back into Brigham City. And. And I came along down in Southern California with a more liberal mother.

John Dehlin [02:59:06] And

Roger Hendrix [02:59:10] I feel a certain loyalty to them then. I also feel a deep loyalty for people where I was the shepherd in the ward as a bishop, and they're still. And as in a stake presidency and especially on the mission, you know, these young guys. A mission president probably has more influence and power over the lives of young men than any other position in the church. And so I want to be straight with them. I may not believe like I did, but I still want them to know I'm with them. Now. They're. They're. Now they're 48 years old. And so, you know, pretty soon you guys are going to have to put on your big boy pants. You know, you have to, you know, quit going on. On the bottle here, the nipple and queen and. Yeah, just, you know, borrowed light. And I now have young missionaries. Who have maybe become a little more like I have, or maybe just it wasn't their cup of tea. And so they're more likely to contact me. And not that I minister unto them, but we have a friendship. Now there are some missionaries who are ticked at me for taking the stand. I did. I'm okay with that. I have no problem with that at all. And so there. I have had so many rich experiences in the church. I'm not going to give those away. I'm going to keep those. And where I had to make my stand, I made my stand. I'm not mad at anybody. That's my position. I hold that dearly. And has my theology doctrine evolved? Evolved, yes. Lost, no. I still know what it's all about. I know what it is to have a still small voice, but still small voice. Yeah. I'm getting tired, aren't I?

John Dehlin [03:01:55] No, you're doing great. And I know it's time to go, so you've been super generous, so that was beautiful. This has been amazing. Thank you so much. Roger, pull the microphone a little bit closer, if you don't mind, just as we close. And I'm gonna ask you one final question. And then we're done. So a lot of ex Mormons are mad at the church. They feel like they've been traumatized by the church. A lot of them want to See the church destroyed. And so one of the two big questions I always get is, is the tipping point happening? Is the church in decline? Is the church going to cease to exist at some point? And so a lot of them will have tuned in because they want, not only want to know the answer, but they are hoping that you're going to say that the church is in decline. And at some point it's going to do this reverse hockey stick and tank and it's going to be wiped off the face of the earth. And that's not everyone, but that's some of them. And so what I want you to do, if you can, is just kind of summarize your prognostication, put on your prophet, seer and revelator hat. What is the future of the church? Is it going to tank? Is it going to slowly decline? Is it going to stay where it is? Is it even going to increase? What is the future of Mormonism? In summary, as a way to conclude

The Long-Term Future of the Mormon Church

Roger Hendrix [03:03:12] this episode, religion in general in America is shrinking. That will continue to happen. Hence religions will come together to make a stand. The church, the Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints, the Church of Jesus Christ, the Mormon Church, it's making worldwide investments in young people and in education, and that will continue to grow. Will Christianity shrink to the point that it is smaller than Islam? No, no. But it will take on a different definition. There will be cultural Christians, there will be a lot of diverse Christians, there will be a lot of diverse Latter Day Saints. And the future of the church is that it will have a strong core, but it will have people dropping out at a pretty steady rate. But the church will survive. It's powerful, rich, rich, and it's successful and it's shrewd and, and so. And if it changes its metrics, who knows? But what? It will start having a success story.

John Dehlin [03:05:14] But so it could turn things around and even start growing again in a meaningful way.

Roger Hendrix [03:05:18] If it changes its metrics, if it begins to say the number of people being baptized each year compared to, to the number of temple recommend holders and tithe payers, wow, is pretty solid. Our growth is really solid. So you change the metrics, you change the dynamics, and you can do that. But religion in general in America is on the decline and we are a very secular nation. But the nones n o n e s say they are spiritual but not religious. And so they're saying, you know, they're defining religion by different markers and that is spiritual, whatever that happens to be. And so do I believe that there is A place for John Dehlin in Mormon stories. Yes, it's a perfect alternative. It gives an alternative view. And people come in here because they feel loved, they feel warmth, they feel accepted, they feel like it's honest, authentic. And I think you're humble enough that when you get a little too aggressive, you know, you, then you repent to the masses. And that way you're very, you're very evangelical. You know, I, I have sinned, you know, forgive me. And, and when you do that, I love that. I think it's powerful. And that's, and, and that's why this, that you have started will continue to grow just like the, I mean, if the church collapses, John de Lin would collapse. I mean, the alternative. So, you know, you know, you know, Sometimes what you get is not really what you reckon for in the final analysis. And so be strong. Don't let the strong willed Hasidic Latter Day Saint pound you down. Just stand on your own two feet and if you're hurt, you know, sign up for Thrive.

John Dehlin [03:08:18] Just for the record, it's not the Hasidic orthodox Mormons that get me down. It's the mean spirited ex Mormons that attempt to smear and take you down. Those are the ones that are hard for me.

Roger Hendrix [03:08:33] Do you know? And why is that? Because they're competing for marketplace market space that gets back to business. You know, they don't want to be for you because they've got a, some of those guys who are making their living off of or trying to, or

John Dehlin [03:08:54] trying to get attention. It's not just money, it's attention. A lot of people in the, in the social media world, it's like, and it's shares and its views and so people want attention and sometimes they'll even try and make a living.

Roger Hendrix [03:09:10] Yeah, and that is very normal because they want to get, they're in business to get attention. And so the guy who keeps getting more attention is his father, is, is their target. And so I even have a strategy for that.

John Dehlin [03:09:37] What's the strategy? We'll end on this. My wife Sherry's getting upset. Sherry's upset. I need to know.

Roger Hendrix [03:09:45] Copycat.

John Dehlin [03:09:46] What?

Roger Hendrix [03:09:46] Copycat?

John Dehlin [03:09:47] What does that mean?

Roger Hendrix [03:09:48] Copycat is, is that for them to beat me?

John Dehlin [03:09:52] Uh oh, you're giving my, you're giving my potential competitors an idea.

Roger Hendrix [03:09:57] In business, what we say is when you suck, you have nothing going for you. Pull up to the number one or the fortress and just say you are that person and that person will let crumbs fall off their plate. And then you Live on that. But you better get out of there, because eventually that fortress will run over you. You've got to get out, take their crumbs, get out, and then create your own little niche. And so when they're bad mouthing you and when they're seeking for attention, I know what they're saying is, how did this guy do this? Well, you're now beginning to be a pretty big fish in the international pool in podcasting. And you look back on what you've had to sacrifice for that. And these guys, they can copycat you, but they can't do the sacrifice. And so you're right, it's not the Hasidic Mormons who get after you. It is the guys who are. Who are in your market and they want to be.

John Dehlin [03:11:23] And the women. Not just the guys, the women, too.

Roger Hendrix [03:11:25] The women. And I would just take that as a compliment. Well, you have. Sometimes you get a little ticked off at these people, but you're still growing. So what did the ticked off do for you? And they fade away. You know. You know, the fog of war is coming over my head. I'm not. The words are not. Poppy. My poor wife.

John Dehlin [03:12:04] Oh, no, it's great. Okay, we're done. We're done. Wait, just.

Roger Hendrix [03:12:11] What?

John Dehlin [03:12:12] No, no, no. Let me just say. Let me close. Is that okay? So, Roger, I'm sorry to keep you for so long, but you're brilliant and we have lunches that are longer than this, so I don't feel super guilty about that. But you are a dear friend. You have been a really important supporter now for many years. We've had many lunches. We've spent a lot of time together. I'm so glad to have you back, and I really enjoyed this episode. Listeners, I hope you enjoyed Roger's wisdom. Roger, I hope to have you back again on Mormon Stories podcast, but thank you for sharing with us your wisdom, your experience, your strategic insight, and, you know, everything. You're great. So grateful for you. And thanks for coming on Mormon Stories.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

Roger Hendrix [03:12:57] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [03:12:59] Are you done?

Roger Hendrix [03:13:01] Am I done?

John Dehlin [03:13:02] Are you ready?

Roger Hendrix [03:13:04] Am I still on?

John Dehlin [03:13:05] No. Yeah. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com donate if you don't support us. Less than 1 out of a thousand donors, actually, you know, One of what? Less than one out of a thousand listeners or viewers actually donate. We lose donors all the time to Covid and other sorts of things. So we need your support. So if you value this programming, if you want to see, continue, please become a monthly donor. Go to mormonstories.org Click on the Donate button at the top of the page. 1050. 100 bucks a month. Whatever you can afford. We're transparent in our finances. We are 100% dedicated to supporting truth within Mormonism and supporting healing and growth for progressive and post Mormons and secular Mormons. So give us your support, Give us your feedback. Share this with everyone. Give us positive reviews if you can. And most importantly, love each other. Be good to each other, do good to each other. Enter out of the church. Let's be more kind, let's be more loving, and let's do what's right and let the consequence follow. Love you guys. See you soon. Take care and we'll see you guys again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Bye everybody.

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