Welcome and Guest Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's December 7, 2020, and today we have. I say this frequently. Today I mean it. Extra. Specially today we have an all star interview for you. And when I say stars, I really mean it. These really are stars. Today we are interviewing Heather Gay and Dre Nord of Da Da Da Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Hey, guys. Hi. Welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Heather Gay [00:00:38] Thank you for having us.

Dre Nord [00:00:39] Yeah, thank you so much. This is a dream.

John Dehlin [00:00:42] Are you guys delighted or terrified? Both. Both.

Dre Nord [00:00:45] Yeah, easily both.

Heather Gay [00:00:46] Easily both, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] No. So I'm going to be honest. This is my first Real Housewives experience in my life that I hope you guys aren't mad at me.

Dre Nord [00:00:58] John, it's mine, too. Is it really?

Heather Gay [00:01:01] Okay. Yeah, mine too, actually. First Real Housewives I've ever done.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] No. But, yeah, I've never seen it before, but we're four episodes into this season and it's a show for those of you who don't know Real Housewives, we'll talk about it. But it's a show where they pick around six housewives and they just. It's kind of reality tv, free for all. A lot of fun, a lot of interesting personalities, a little bit of drama. Is that fair to say?

Heather Gay [00:01:32] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:01:32] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] And covering a lot of really real and important themes. And it turns out I have a personal connection to some members of the cast this year. And I won't give any spoilers away, but I've watched four episodes. The fifth episode is coming soon, and it's going to be dealing with, you know, there are the Real Housewives of Salt Lake has several either current or former members of the LDS Church, along with some people who have never been Mormon before. But all of them right now are living in Salt Lake City. And it's kind of a little bit different for Salt Lake City, and it's different for the LDS Church to be profiled in this way. And so we are not going to be focusing on the actual show today. We're going to be focusing on the stories of Heather Gay and Dre Nord. Heather is one of the six, you know, Real Housewives, and then they're allowed to bring on their friends. In this case, Dre is a. Is business partners with Heather, and we're going to talk about that. And it's quite an inspiring story because these are resilient women who have inspiring stories as women and as entrepreneurs and on Mormon Stories podcast. It is such a real deal. We have so Many, many women who once the faith crisis happened to them or their spouses or their families, they weren't always left in the best situation. And some women are left really having to scramble and scrape to figure out what their life is going to be once their world is turned upside down. And for me, I'm most excited. You know, it's great to have celebrities in the studios, but what I'm most excited about is that we have two women who represent strength and resilience and they have inspiring stories. So that's what we're going to be talking about. Heather and Dre, they're best friends, they're business partners, and without any further ado, let's get started.

Dre Nord [00:03:36] Let's do it. We're excited.

John Dehlin [00:03:38] Okay. Anything you want to correct about my intro or add or take away? No. Did we mention Bravo? Did I mention Bravo?

Heather Gay [00:03:44] Well, Real Housewives is on Bravo tv, and in the first episode, I think they said. They said the word Mormon like at least 40 times. So, you know, Mormonism is a character in the show. And it's as much as it's been. I wouldn't even say character. A current thread in the show as much as it's been, you know, the thread of my entire life. So, like, people have criticized, like, us talking too much about Mormonism, but it's informed every choice I've ever made. And so if you're gonna do a show with me on it, Mormonism is going to be a part of it.

John Dehlin [00:04:15] And let's face it, they're not gonna come to Salt Lake City and not wanna talk about Mormonism. That's like, Margi and I have watched like 10 seasons of Survivor. They love Mormons on Survivor.

Heather Gay [00:04:25] We're good at surviving, aren't we?

John Dehlin [00:04:27] Almost every episode of season of Survivor has Mormons on it. And they want you to talk about it, right?

Heather Gay [00:04:32] Yeah. Well, the truth is, Real Housewives is kind of like Survivor and minute to win it with Project Runway, like, all combined. So it's all kind of fast paced Survivor type mentality. So reality TV for what it is. You cannot have a show in Salt Lake City and not address Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:04:50] Yeah. And it's good. I think it's good for our culture to have sunlight, and they say sunlight is the best disinfectant. So here we go. You guys ready?

Dre Nord [00:05:00] We're ready.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] Okay, so what I want to do is we're going to tell two stories in parallel because these are best friends, these are business partners, and their stories start out separate, but then they converge and then Things get really interesting. And so what we're going to do is kind of like go through different phases of their lives and go back and forth. And then once the story emerges, then we'll just have a natural kind of one to two interview. But whose story should we start first?

Dre Nord [00:05:31] I think probably mine, because I went through my faith crisis sooner than Heather did, so that makes most sense to me. Does that work?

Heather Gay [00:05:41] Yeah. Since I'm midstream right now.

Dre Nord [00:05:43] Yes, she's midstream. She's in it. She's in the thick of it. But I think Heather and I have always. Well, first of all, let's just how we met, right? Yeah, absolutely. Because our. Both of our oldest daughters went to school together. They were best friends in elementary school. But by the time I met Heather, I was already out of the church. I was a single, divorced mom.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] And we're going to back up and tell your story. Is that okay? Okay. Okay.

Dre Nord [00:06:05] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] Yeah. Okay.

Dre Nord [00:06:06] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:06:06] Keep going.

Dre Nord [00:06:07] Okay. And so we kind of ran in different circles because Heather was the Relief Society president or Gospel doctrine teacher at the time, or both. One of those. And so we ran in different circles. And I never would have known that Heather and I had such similar upbringings and that we were so similar in just our history and the way that we see the world because we were

Heather Gay [00:06:32] so different and the way we practice our faith.

Dre Nord [00:06:34] Yeah, exactly. And I always say Heather was the exact type of Mormon that I was. I was raised. I grew up in Virginia, in Northern Virginia, right outside of D.C. but to very, very faithful, devout parents. I used to call us Fundamentalist Mormon, but now I am transitioning that to, like, more doctrinal Mormon. It was really intense. The. The kind of Mormonism that we practiced. It was very, very much based on doctrine. And I am a rule follower. And I was teasing you before, John about, you know, you've questioned things since the beginning. I didn't question. I just did what I was told and I believed it and I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:07:17] How many siblings?

Dre Nord [00:07:18] I'm the oldest of four.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] Okay.

Dre Nord [00:07:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] And I assume one of your parents was working in government somewhere.

Dre Nord [00:07:23] Yeah. So my dad, he didn't work exactly in the government, but he worked for a company that did that was contracted by the government, and that's why we ended up moving to Virginia when I was 8. We lived in Northern California and then moved to Virginia. And it was a really great place to grow up. I loved it. And I mean, we were in the same ward as John Huntsman, John Mary Kay were in our ward yeah. Jeff and Cheryl Flake. Cheryl was my mom's best friend. They were in a cute trio together and they sang at all of these, like different senate dinners and stuff. And it was just.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] Jeff Flake was a senator in Arizona.

Dre Nord [00:07:53] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] He's been big in the news.

Dre Nord [00:07:55] Oh, yeah, yeah. And I actually really love Jeff. He's.

Heather Gay [00:07:58] We're going to name drop a lot. John.

Dre Nord [00:08:00] I love it. I love it. I mean, you can't. Not when you like grew up in that area. Like there's just there were, you know, everybody knows the Mormon politicians and they.

Heather Gay [00:08:08] Mormon royalty, one might say.

Dre Nord [00:08:10] Yeah, exactly.

Heather Gay [00:08:11] You know, hated on by the world.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] And I've met John and Mary Kay and they, they do listen to Mormon stories.

Dre Nord [00:08:17] Oh, well, shout out. Shout out to the Huntsman. I, I love them. And yeah, I. That was how I grew up. And. But it was a different experience, I think, growing up on the east coast as opposed to growing up in Mormon Utah. But I was very devout. I was early morning seminary, seminary president. Like all of the things. I'm probably the last person that any of my friends or any of the ward members would have thought could ever leave the church.

Growing Up Mormon: Faith and Family Life

John Dehlin [00:08:48] What were the types of typical Mormon things that your family did? You know, there's always the scripture study in the evening.

Heather Gay [00:08:55] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] You guys do all that stuff.

Dre Nord [00:08:56] Yeah. But we, But I feel like my parents took it to the next level. We were only Motab, like when we were on Sunday. On Sundays. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:09:04] For the full official name Mormon Tabernacle Choir, if you don't mind.

Dre Nord [00:09:08] You know, we. We didn't change out of our church clothes on Sundays. Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:15] That's intense.

Dre Nord [00:09:16] Yeah. And. But like, I had the rule of, like, I couldn't go on a date with the same person more than twice. But more than that, I was just heavily.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] You gotta explain that.

Dre Nord [00:09:25] So I couldn't.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] This is all over. This is Utah too. Why would your parents not let you go out there?

Dre Nord [00:09:29] Because they did not want us. And specifically me because I had two younger brothers between me and my youngest sister. And so I was the only girl for a while. And I think there was a lot of concern that I guess I would like meet a boy and maybe have sex. I never would have, but they just didn't want me to have a boyfriend because they just, you know, love chastity.

Heather Gay [00:09:54] That's.

Dre Nord [00:09:54] It was just too slippery of a slope. And so I was allowed to go on a date with the same boy twice. And then I would have to go out with someone Else.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] Can I just say, as someone with a psychology PhD, that's a tiny bit unhealthy for me. Because if you want to have a successful marriage, you need to learn about emotional intimacy. And to learn about emotional intimacy, you have to develop a medium to a long term relationship and understand each other, learn to care about each other, learn to communicate. And if you're always chopping up those relationships until you go to BYU and then you marry the first RM you meet or University of Utah, wherever you go, then you actually get married, never developing some skills of just basic emotional intimacy. Now, I don't want to, you know, fill in your story.

Dre Nord [00:10:37] No, but fun fact, I did marry my first boyfriend.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] Okay?

Dre Nord [00:10:40] So, yeah, I mean, so I guess it worked, mom and dad, but. But we did find, like, great ways to get around that. Like my boyfriend, my second boyfriend in high school and I married the first. But my second boyfriend in high school, he had a good. Who was gay, but he hadn't come out yet. But like, I would always go out with him because he was like just our fun, like, ballroom dance best friend. And so I would go out with my boyfriend twice and then I'd go out with our fun friend and just check the box, you know, and that's how we got around it.

Heather Gay [00:11:16] And let's hear the law, not spirit of the law.

Dre Nord [00:11:18] Kids are creative, you guys. But yeah, just. We were. But more than that, like, you know, of course we didn't play sports on Sunday, which was big on the east coast, because.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] Were you into sports?

Dre Nord [00:11:29] Yeah, but my, my brothers were more. I played softball and my brothers played baseball and soccer. And it was, that was tough because we would have to initially tell our coaches, like, oh, we can't. We don't play on Sundays. We're Mormon. That's just not gonna happen for us. And I don't know if people in Utah have that same experience. Probably not, but, you know, it was just part of my whole life. And all of my friends were just the girls in my ward. I was incredibly shy, and so I didn't really have a lot of friends in school. And I heavily relied on the church for everything, for my social circle. My best friend and I sat on the Interfaith Youth Council of D.C. we were the two Mormon representatives all through high school. And that was a wonderful experience. I loved being the Mormon representative for that because I was able to be exposed to, you know, different religions and different cultures, but also kind of push my own agenda and it fed my need to be right. And I was able To. Even though I appreciated seeing everything else, it just reaffirmed my faith that, like, this is the right way, this is it. And I remember having a conversation with my friend who was on the council with me, and she said something to me like, oh, don't you think it's so sad that, like, they seem so happy, but they just don't even know. They don't know the truth. And that was truly how I felt. And I felt a little sadness too, of, gosh, you know, I have it all. I have all of the secrets. And these people are so good, they're so wonderful, but they don't know what I know. And that was very much the type of Mormon that I was.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] I'll just jump in. I grew up in Texas, in Houston, Texas. But I know a lot about these Maryland and Virginia Mormon wards. They're a lot of powerful, kind, you know, important, good people. So these Virginia and Maryland wards are very strong. You know, Marriotts are there, Huntsmans are there, Orrin Hatch is there. You know, it's like political royalty, Harry Reid, you know, all these people. And then. But, but the wards, number one, it's so cool to feel so special. You're in, you know, Utah calls it abroad or in the Mission field.

Heather Gay [00:13:44] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] And that means outside of Utah. And. But so you're in these really powerful, fast moving places, but you feel special and better than everybody. And it gives you this sense of a little bit of persecution, but also of superiority where you're in the minority, but you're better than everybody. And then you've just got these intense, high functioning wards with a lot of affluent families, great activities, great youth programs, and they're amazing. It really is an amazing way to grow up. Tell me if I'm wrong.

Dre Nord [00:14:17] Oh, absolutely. I loved it. I wouldn't have traded it for the world. And it was actually quite a culture shock. When I moved to Utah my senior year of high school. It was actually devastating because the church was so different here and the social aspect of it was so different here because I was, of course, like I said, I was really, really shy, but I was very nervous about moving to a new school when I was 17 years old and just barely coming into my own. And then I just kept thinking, okay, I'm gonna have the girls in my ward, I'll have the girls in my ward. And I didn't have the girls in my ward. It was totally different. We moved to Alpine.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] And before you graduated?

Dre Nord [00:14:55] Before I graduated, yeah, we moved to Alpine. So I did my senior year at Lone peak the year it opened.

John Dehlin [00:15:01] What a, what a culture shock.

Dre Nord [00:15:03] It was a real culture shock. And it was hard. It was, it was really tough on me.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] What's the difference? How would you describe the difference between Alpine high schools and Virginia high school?

Dre Nord [00:15:11] Well, first of all, it was all white people.

John Dehlin [00:15:13] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:15:14] That was the biggest thing. Like, I grew up in a predominantly Arab and Persian area of Northern Virginia.

Heather Gay [00:15:21] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:15:21] And so I was used to a lot of diversity and I was used to being special because everyone did know that I was the Mormon. Like, there were only 13 or 14 of us, I think, at our high school, it was a smaller high school for that area. And we kind of, everybody knew that that's what we were. And we didn't party and we went to early morning seminary and all of those things. And then. And that was so much of my identity. That was my identity. And so when I came to Utah, I didn't have that anymore. So I was like, well, what am I?

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Because I'm just like everybody else.

Dre Nord [00:15:55] I'm like everyone else. And I. I truly did. It really was like, I'll have the girls in my ward because those were my best friends, even if they didn't go to my high school. Because our ward pulled from like three different high schools in Virginia. In Virginia. Yeah. Then when I moved to Utah, I was like, okay, well, at least I'll. I'll have some built in friends. And I really didn't. I had to fend for myself.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] Words can be clicky.

Dre Nord [00:16:16] Oh, and my ward, it was rough.

John Dehlin [00:16:19] A lot of these Utah areas have had families living for generations in the same ward. And so everybody you have, you got your set of friends. They're even sometimes girls and maybe even boys can be really protective about who's in the clique and who's not.

Heather Gay [00:16:34] And I know parents are super protective. Yeah, absolutely. Like, who is that? I don't know her.

Dre Nord [00:16:41] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] And it can leave your kids. And my kids got this really bad because here I am, a Mormon podcaster in Utah, and the parents are like, I don't know, stay away from him. And so our kids often felt excluded in their own ward, and it was kind of sad.

Dre Nord [00:16:54] So, yeah, I definitely experienced that. And Alpine's no exception to that as far as, like, legacy families that have been there forever and they all already had their friends and their grandparents grew up together and all of those things. And I think Alpine's different now, but just because it's grown so much. But, you know, in the late 90s, that, that was my Reality. So that's kind of how I grew up. Do you want me to kick it to Heather and she can fill in her growing up?

John Dehlin [00:17:21] I'll ask you a little bit more about your upbringing, but after. So let's bring Heather in, have you do the same thing. Take us up to just painting the picture of kind of your upbringing, and then we're going to jump back and talk about any, like, big, dramatic things that happened in high school or college, and we'll kind of go back and forth. So, Heather, give us kind of the same background from your perspective.

Heather's Mormon Upbringing in Denver

Heather Gay [00:17:43] Okay. I grew up in, for the most part, in Denver, Colorado, and my parents were both absolutely devout, committed, creative, cool Mormons. You know, and we. My identity was very much one of, like, a superiority, you know, we were Mormons. And we were not only Mormons, we were cool Mormons. You know, we were beautiful Mormons. We were successful Mormons. We were like three kids, six kids.

Dre Nord [00:18:09] Whoa.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] And you were in the Brooklyn.

Heather Gay [00:18:10] I'm the middle daughter, so I'm the third child. And I'm the second daughter, so there's three boys and three girls.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] And your maiden name, Are you able. Are you okay? Sure.

Heather Gay [00:18:18] Yes.

Dre Nord [00:18:18] Deans.

Heather Gay [00:18:19] Heather Deans.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Deans, yeah. And what did your parents do? Work with.

Heather Gay [00:18:22] So my dad, he had had a background in government and worked for the FBI. I was born in California. He was at the language institute in Monterey.

Dre Nord [00:18:31] Oh, yeah.

Heather Gay [00:18:31] That's amazing. And did kind of cool things, you know, like Russian espionage. Then he, like, parlayed that into a Bureau of Land management. He discovered Indian artifacts. He was just a cool guy. And then he had. Had then, like, transitioned into an oil and gas company. And that's what we were. He primarily did when we were in Colorado. And I grew up, you know, I thought I grew up superior, for sure. I felt wealthy. I felt sad for people that weren't Mormon. I remember his business partner at one point was trying to adopt a child. They were struggling with infertility. And I don't know the context of it, but I remember we brought them over. We sang as I have loved you. We are hooking them up with LDS social Services. And I just remember thinking. And I was probably 10, maybe nine, you know, thinking, I feel so bad for them. You know, I felt bad for anyone. And I thought, they're going to see our family, they're going to feel our love. They're going to feel the same spirit, and they're gonna be like, teach me more. You know, that's how I approached everything. Kind of like I was,

Dre Nord [00:19:37] you know,

Heather Gay [00:19:38] advertising the church by the idyllic childhood I had.

John Dehlin [00:19:42] Every member a missionary, right?

Dre Nord [00:19:44] Every member of missionary, especially in the mission field that is like, I think mission field, right. Like we can all identify with that at least. I totally can.

Heather Gay [00:19:52] Totally. I mean, it was my whole world. My best friends were Mormon, you know, my dad was my soccer coach, my sister was seminary president. We, I remember like my mom, my little brother was born while, you know, at. He's 10 years younger than me. And I remember it was a Sunday and my dad had taken us all to church and he wanted to stop at like El Pollo Loco on the way home. And I as a child was thrilled, you know. Cause we're getting like takeout food on a Sunday. But I also had a pit in my stomach, you know, because this meant, you know, we're cracking the seal. And I have moments like that when I remember, like, I remember one time my dad like hit his thumb with a hammer or something, like very cartoonish. And he said God bless it. And I thought I was.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] God bless it? Yeah, like anger.

Heather Gay [00:20:42] Yeah, God bless it. And I was like, I was sick.

John Dehlin [00:20:46] Cause Mormons.

Heather Gay [00:20:47] What Mormons don't take the name of the Lord in vain. And that was akin to me of like seeing my dad hanging up the phone with another woman. I mean, that's the level of emotional reaction I had to any aberration in the script. And we did early morning scripture study as a family. And when they came out on cassette tape, my mom would press play on the cassette tape and she'd be like dry heaving. Cause she was pregnant, you know, but had a hot breakfast and we'd have to follow along on our Books of Mormon as it went around the room. And you know, it was like 6am and I hated it, but I loved it because makes you feel cool, like strong and valued and safe, you know, and structured. And I, I loved it. And I, I, you know, I felt like they were doing everything right. And you know, I just felt special and lucky, I guess would probably be the term. And then the oil and grass, the oil and gas market kind of crashed. And my dad had developed other businesses, franchises. And he had the opportunity to extend those franchises in Utah. And I knew my, I'd always spent summers with my cousins. I had seen all of my relatives were in Utah still. And so When I was 15, my family moved from Denver to Salt Lake City. And I had attended Academy for Girls at BYU in the summer. And I had met a couple girls. Well, I had met one Specific girl that lived on Walker Lane. And I remember Walker Lane because my parents, when we sat at, like, the banquet at the end of, like, the camp, they sat. You know, we sat together. Cause we were friends. And my parents met this, her parents, and they said, oh, where do you live in Utah? And they said, walker Lane. And my parents immediately recognized it and knew what it was. So I was like, oh, locker room.

Dre Nord [00:22:32] That's pretty cool.

Heather Gay [00:22:34] And we ended up moving into that same junior high boundary. And my first day of school, I came back and I was just being, like, led through the school, you know, by a guide, another student guide that was clearly not going to be my friend, you know, but I was going to have this happen. And then my friend Amy from Academy for Girls and EFY came running out and was like, Heather. And we had this, like, reunion. And she was, you know, one of, like, the five families, you know, she was in that circle of elite Mormon wealthy families. And she lockered. She had me locker with her. She had me forget everything that the student guide had taught me. And I was immediately kind of. I mean, what would be, like, embraced by this group of really elite Mormon women?

Dre Nord [00:23:21] And.

Heather Gay [00:23:22] And I remember later my dad told me that he had had a conversation. He had friends and connections here. He had gone to high school at Highland in Salt Lake. So he had contacted some of his friends when he was franchised in the business to find out who he should employ. And, you know, it was always like, who knows who? And he. I remember him asking his friend, who didn't have a daughter my age, like, who should Heather be friends with? And he said, well, if she's friends with Margaret, you're golden. If she's friends with Kristen, you gotta worry. And I was friends with both of them because they were both in the same group. And this was my first introduction to kind of wolves in sheep's clothing. I did not know Mormons that didn't live it. I didn't know them. I didn't know they existed. I didn't know.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] And when you say didn't live it, tell the audience what you mean by that.

Heather Gay [00:24:14] Mormons that smoked and drank when they weren't at church. Mormons that, you know, drink coffee. Drink coffee and just didn't tell anybody. Mormons that didn't attend the temple or didn't care to attend the temple. Mormons that, you know, lived in the gray. My dad was the head of security when the Denver Temple was dedicated. And it was this big thing that he would drive the prophet. And we all got to be in the celestial room for the dedication of that temple. And that was, you know, I mean, we were, we were cool Mormons and my dad was cool and funny and, you know, awesome. And they lived it as much as I know they lived it. And so coming to Utah was my first kind of foray into people that did it for the culture, but didn't live it because they believed it. And that was both thrilling for me as a teenager and also, you know, terrifying because what's real, you know, and I had a proclivity to all of the things not Mormon. So it was scary to me that I could walk that line and still show up with these esteemed Mormons on Sunday and nobody was the wiser.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] You know, these are called Utah Mormons. Utah Mormons are Mormons that maybe are in it for the culture, but not really in it. And oftentimes this is going to sound weird, but the most devout Mormons are the ones who are living in the mission field. And I got to say, it's so bizarre that Utah is Utah and the rest of the world is the mission field. So when we say the mission field, we mean everywhere in the world but Utah. But sometimes the Mormons outside of Utah are just way more into it than the ones, the ones here. And that makes sense, right? It's just, it's so pervasive. It's like swimming in the water, right?

Heather Gay [00:26:08] Yeah. I'd be like, well, wait a second, I thought they were Mormon. They're like, well, they are. What do you mean he went up her shirt?

Dre Nord [00:26:14] You know what I mean?

Heather Gay [00:26:15] Like, things like that. He went up her shirt. You know, like, what do you mean they were drinking? You know, like in eighth grade, I had a friend ask me to smuggle a beer on our Washington D.C. trip. And I was so naive. I opened the beer and I poured it into. I took a shampoo bottle, poured it out. I mean, I was a cool friend, you know, I was like, well, I'm not going to partake. But I opened a beer and. And I poured into a shampoo bottle, screwed the lid back on and took it in my suitcase for a four day trip. And then was like, who wants a beer? And you know, unscrewed. You know, it's like I just had no concept of anything. I was just, I was, yeah, that was my story. So I, you know, I came to Utah when I was 15.

Utah Mormon Culture and Social Hierarchy

John Dehlin [00:26:58] And so when we talk about Walker Lane, I just have to say Mormon Story Studios is in Holiday, Utah. I live in Holiday, Utah. It's Kind of like east bench, southeast of Salt Lake city, but maybe 10 minutes away. 10, 15 minutes away from Salt Lake City. Kind of more up against the mountains. And this is kind of like one of the really elite areas of Mormonism in Holiday. I understand it that some of the Mitt Romney lives here now. So, like, Mitt Romney could have lived anywhere in Utah. When he moves to Utah, he moves to Holiday. Right. Some of the stakes in Holiday are the most wealthy stakes in the entire church. So a lot of old money, a lot of really super nice homes. And Walker Lane is this lane where you follow it. There's also a wander lane too. But I mean, yeah, just gorgeous homes, old money.

Heather Gay [00:27:45] Yeah. Like this, the cheapest home on Walker Lane. Even it was just a lot would be over, you know, millions of dollars.

Dre Nord [00:27:52] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:27:53] Yeah. Yeah. Big money.

Heather Gay [00:27:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:55] Okay. Okay. So do I get the sense then that you as a teenager struggled with the rules or kind of played with the rules and the boundaries?

Heather Gay [00:28:06] Yeah. More wild than I asked, for? Sure.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] Okay.

Heather Gay [00:28:08] Talk about that. Well, I was just, you know, I was. I was a wild child. What were the rules? Well, the rules were you didn't drink, you didn't smoke, you didn't swear, you didn't kiss boys, you didn't date boys, really, you know, you didn't. You weren't immoral, you. Immoral meaning like, you know, anything below this Mason Dixon line, John.

John Dehlin [00:28:34] Which is why for me, it was below the neck.

Dre Nord [00:28:36] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:28:36] He wouldn't let anybody touch your body. You wouldn't ever feel the stirrings of sexual desire. You know, you kissed, but, like, you kept it clean. And I, you know, you just kind of followed the Norman Rockwell courting rules. You know, like, he picks you up, he brings a corsage, you go on a date, he, you know, opens the door, he brings you home. And like, I was kind of thrust in this world where that wasn't happening for me at least, you know, And I just wanted. Which high school I went to? Olympus Olympus Junior and then Olympus High. And I just wanted to kind of experience anything and everything. But I still knew that, like, no matter what I did, I had to come home and be Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:29:24] So was it duplicitous? Were you doing things in secret and just not telling?

Heather Gay [00:29:28] Yeah, absolutely duplicitous.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] What were the things you were doing? If you want to share.

Heather Gay [00:29:31] Yeah. Well, I mean, I was like, I would go to a party where there's jungle juice in an igloo, you know, and I would drink it like, jungle juice is like, fruit punch and I don't know, like, ever clear. Yeah, ever clear. Like, whatever kinds of alcohol they could find. Because we.

John Dehlin [00:29:45] You know, these were Mormons hosting the.

Heather Gay [00:29:47] Yeah, absolutely. And that's why I think I was, like, even able to. Because I was with my Mormon friends. And this was a little bit of a different context for my parents. Here I was friends with the. With the right. Friends with the right girls, with the right people, and I don't think they even wanted to, like, look under the covers.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] You know, I just have to say, when. When you. When you. When your parents and you live outside of Utah and you decide to move to Utah, unless you know better, you're thinking, man, we've got a grade out in the mission field. But when we move to Utah, it's going to be, like, the best Mormons, and our kids will be the most righteous and the most faithful, and. And I guess your parents found that maybe it was the opposite.

Heather Gay [00:30:24] It was the opposite. You know, I never really ever had an open conversation with them about anything. Like, I would never.

John Dehlin [00:30:30] They didn't want to know.

Heather Gay [00:30:32] They didn't want to know, and I did not want to tell them. And it wasn't like, hey, I'm really struggling. Like, these kids that you think are, like, it's so great. I'm friends with them because their dad's the stake president. He's in their authority. And, you know, they're wealthy and they're beautiful, and they're all Mormon, and they're all married, and none of them are from, heaven forbid, a broken home or, you know, any other faith. You know, my friends were solid, wonderful Mormon families. And so it was kind of. At first, it was an opportunity for me to, like, get away with things, you know, under the blanket of, like, so jungle juice.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] What are the other things?

Heather Gay [00:31:08] Jungle? I mean, we used to go to Geppetto's up on Murray Holiday Road and buy cigarettes from the vending machine. And, like, we didn't even know, though. I didn't ever. I smoked one time, and it was a pack of Camel, unfiltered, and I was sick in the gutter. Like, I thought I was going to die. I thought I had overdosed because it was a cigarette, and I was revoltingly sick, and that was, like, my only experience with that. And I just was experimenting with things because I was able to for the first time, and my sister never did, and I assumed that my brother never did either. And so I. I felt tremendous guilt. But the only reason I did it is because I could do it and still be Mormon. You know, I would not have done this and been like with the wrong crowd in Colorado and I probably would.

John Dehlin [00:32:03] Meaning with Mormons. Yeah, with Mormons it's. With Mormons, if you sin with non Mormons, it's bad. But if you sin with Mormons, if

Heather Gay [00:32:10] you sin with Mormons, then we're still, we're all toeing the line is what I like to say. Like, I'm still showing up for class, I'm still showing up for, you know, seminary. My family isn't having any public embarrassment or shame or humiliation because the kids

John Dehlin [00:32:26] are in on it.

Heather Gay [00:32:26] Because we're all in on it. We're all secretive and we're all coming home and my world didn't shatter. You know, I really used to believe that if I took one sip of alcohol or I made out with a boy that hadn't taken me on six dates, you know, like I was. My parents would see it and feel it and know it, and I would be absolutely devastating them and bringing shame onto the family.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] Right. What about in your prayers with, with Heavenly Father? Because if you're living a double life and your parents don't know, but you, you know, you're having fun, you're still encouraged to pray and you're encouraged to repent and, you know, you're taught about the law of chastity and. Which is don't have sex or anything like it. Word of wisdom. No alcohol, no drugs, no tobacco, no coffee, no tea. What about when you're praying? Heavenly Father, he knows. Right, Right. Did that even. Did you do prayers like that?

Personal Devotion, Prayer, and Rebellion

Heather Gay [00:33:21] Yeah, well, we had family prayer every single night and every single morning. And my personal prayers were, you know, I, I did all the things like I did personal progress. I was writing in my journal and when I look back at my journals, you know, they were pretty much just the journals of a, of a 14, 15 year old girl. You know, they weren't overly spiritual. But I remember the pivotal moment I had that was kind of for me. I was attending this friend from Walker Lane. Her older sister, who was 19 at the time, got married and I was attending her wedding reception. And I was kind of, you know, in that, in between, duplicitous phase of life. And, you know, we, we thought we were rebels, but it was few and far between that we ever got our hands on anything that was, you know, worthwhile. But I was definitely toeing the line, you know, just like what, like whatever it's called, walking the line. And I remember I went into this Little. They had that little chapel offside where they show the video with all the songs, and it was of her, like, being embraced and in front of the temple. And I was. I sat in there alone. It was maybe, you know, three, four minute video. And I thought, okay, this is what I want, and this is what I've always wanted. But I just thought I had to, like, you know, diminish myself, to have the fun or to be part of the group or to have the boy like me. But what I really want is this. And I'm going.

John Dehlin [00:34:50] Meaning.

Heather Gay [00:34:50] Meaning I want a celestial marriage. I want a temple marriage. I want to be a virgin on my wedding day. I want to have a man, you know, put me on that little cement riser with the temple behind me.

John Dehlin [00:35:02] Virtual missionary.

Dre Nord [00:35:04] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:35:04] And I want a beautiful, eternal family founded on the principles that I was raised with. And that's all I want. And that is, you know, and I want it honestly. And I made a huge, like, shift in. It was the somewhere I'd have to look at when she got married. But it was around my junior year, and I ditched kind of all of my friends that were anything. And then the other friends that were like, the good families, we kind of all started being good. And so my senior year, I feel like I was like a true, true Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:35:38] And it was because of. I remember that moment. It was like I made the conscious choice to live worthy of what I was working for.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] Yeah. Yeah. And Mormonism, it's really. It feels, you know, it's either feels really good to be the pure one that doesn't ever mess up, or it feels really good to be kind of the. The repentant one, the prodigal child, the Alma, the younger, as we call it, the Saul on the road to Damascus that has that. That kind of like reawakening. And then you commit yourself to righteousness.

Heather Gay [00:36:07] Yeah. And I never repented. I never told anyone. I never told my bishop. I never told my parents.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] Okay.

Heather Gay [00:36:11] I never did anything fundamental. I could never even say it out

John Dehlin [00:36:15] loud that I avoided the shame train.

Heather Gay [00:36:17] I avoided. I avoided accountability. Or it wasn't like, I'm going to feel good again. It was just like, I'm going to live the way I'm professing I live.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. Okay. This is great. So, Dre, let's come back to you. How did you manage, like, the. The rules and the friends and the righteousness and even the spirituality part, you know, in parallel to.

Dre Nord [00:36:42] So I, I. It's so Funny, because we have so many parallels, but, like, that kind of a streak of rebellion I don't relate to at all. I was terrified of ever being that person. I never would have been. And so I just. I was straight arrow as they come. And I remember I. Even after I graduated high school, I had a boyfriend, and he was in my ward, and he, like, touched my boob over my shirt. And I broke up with him that night and said, you don't honor your priesthood. I can never be with someone like you. And that was. I mean, so that was. That was my reality. Like, I didn't know anything about anything. And I wasn't curious. I didn't want to know. I just wanted to follow the rules and be a good girl and have my temple marriage. I had sent a boyfriend off on a mission, my first boyfriend from Virginia. And he had stayed in Virginia, obviously, and I had moved, but that was my thing. I was like, he's going on his mission. I'm just gonna be home. I'm gonna go to school and wait for him to get home, and we're gonna get married, and that's gonna be my life. I didn't want anything else. I didn't want to experiment with anything. I just wanted to be the best Mormon.

Dreams, Education, and Early Ambitions

John Dehlin [00:38:00] So I'm gonna ask you a question. I'm gonna ask Heather also after we're done with this little segment. But what about dreams for yourself regarding education or career? Because we know the family dream of being like, the housewife, the house. Lots of big families, you know, celestial marriage. What about education, your talents and your dreams and a potential career?

Dre Nord [00:38:25] So, I mean, that's what's actually probably the most devastating thing about this story is I really didn't have any. I think I always knew I was smart. I was the smartest kid in my family, and I always got good grades, and I was talented. And I was always told that by teachers. I was in, you know, the Gifted Intelligent program at school. I always excelled, but it was never what was first, and it was never really even part of what I wanted to do. And it's funny because, I mean, I've always been an entrepreneur. I had my first business when I was 19, when I had sent my missionary off.

John Dehlin [00:39:03] And what was that?

Heather Gay [00:39:04] A girlfriend.

Dre Nord [00:39:05] And I had a vintage clothing store in Provo on Center Street. And my dad was teaching at BYU at the time. He was teaching entrepreneurship. And I talked him into letting me do this business. If you'd give me the money. I think it was like $2,000. If he would give me the money. Yeah. And I would. And I promised that I would take his class at byu, and that was kind of our deal. And it's so funny because I never took it seriously. Here I was, 19. Like, I think of now, like, my daughter, 17. If she came to me and wanted to do a business, I would be like, what? This is amazing. Like, absolutely. And for me, it was like, oh, this is just a fun hobby. Like, this is what I'm gonna do while my missionary is in Canada. And so it was just a fun thing that I did. It was never something that I considered that I would, long term, ever be an entrepreneur. The end goal was to be a mom and to be a wife, stay at home mom.

Heather Gay [00:40:06] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:40:06] And I think back on, you know, what kind of school I probably could have gone to, and I never considered it. It was, you know, of course I wanted to go to school, but it was like, I'm gonna go to school until John gets home. And that's. That was just my plan, you know, and there are a lot of things I look back on and think, you know, and even when I first got married to my first boyfriend, we lived on the East coast. We lived in D.C. and he had an opportunity to have an internship for the Department of Treasury. His dad was high up in the government and got him that internship. He also got me an internship at my dream job, the Smithsonian. And that was absolutely. I was obsessed with ancient culture and museums, and if I ever were going to, heaven forbid, have a job or a career, that's what I wanted to do. And we figured it out with the finances. His was an unpaid internship, and so was mine. And one of us had to let it go. So who do you think let it go? You're gonna break my heart. I let it go. I know. And I became Smithsonian. The kicker is that he went to the internship for two weeks and decided it wasn't for him, but he didn't. Couldn't tell me. And so then he didn't ever continue his internship. And he actually. We got in big trouble for this. But he would actually walk with me to the Metro station. I would go to my secretary job. I was doing front desk at somebody that, you know, had hooked me up with a job in the ward. And he would pretend to take the metro into D.C. to the treasury, but he had given up the internship. And instead of. Would go home and meet the missionaries in our ward, and they would play video games. And once. And I didn't even know. And once our bishop found out about

John Dehlin [00:42:04] it because he was afraid to tell you.

Dre Nord [00:42:05] He was afraid to tell me. Yeah. And so that was like the. Even. The kicker is, once we got called into the bishop's office, it was so embarrassing and just horrifying. You know, you can't be having the missionaries over to play video games. And I was like, what? How do you have time to do that? I thought you were at your internship. And no, turns out it just wasn't a good fit. I didn't like it. And I'm like, okay, well, I could have been doing the job of my dreams. But you know what? I don't even think I really had that much resentment. I think I just accepted it and was like, well, that's not your role and you're my role.

Heather Gay [00:42:42] It's your beautiful wife.

Dre Nord [00:42:43] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I do. Those are like. Heather and I talk a lot on our podcast about sliding door moments. And it's like those. If you made the train or not, you know, how would your life be different? Or if you did this or not, how would that be different? Yeah. And like, for us, that's like, absolutely. One of my sliding door moments had I just dug in and said, no, my career is important too, and what I want to do with my education is important too.

Heather Gay [00:43:09] But that wasn't even a thought.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] No.

Dre Nord [00:43:11] It wasn't even a discussion. Yeah, it was. That's. That's not the priority. What I do with my education was absolutely not the priority. Even though in hindsight, I was much better equipped to get my education and to do that internship and all of those things.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] Yeah.

Dre Nord [00:43:31] You know.

John Dehlin [00:43:31] Yeah. There are certain ways where I think it's fair to say Mormonism has gotten better with time. But my mom, my grandma, you know, my sisters, I'm older and they were older than me. They were all taught your job, one or two years of college the most. But your job is to get married as soon as possible and start having babies. And a four year degree is kind of a waste. Now, that's my. My sisters and my mom and my grandma. You guys are younger than me. And that's still going on today. Like, not always, but a lot of. A lot of our culture is still that way. And that's just kind of mind blowing. That that's not a thing of the 50s or the 60s, but that's like the 2000s and 2000s and even now 2000s.

Heather Gay [00:44:16] I think now we're just cage year about how we cloak it, cloak the messages we give our daughters, you know, because I'M the only girl or the only daughter in my family to have graduated from college, and.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] Okay, so tell your story that way about dreams for yourself. We'll go back and forth, so. Dreams for yourself. Oh, did you want to finish something?

Dre Nord [00:44:35] Can I go to the bathroom? Yeah, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:44:36] It was so fun, but we're going to keep going.

Heather Gay [00:44:38] I'll just tell my version while you go.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] Yeah, you.

Dre Nord [00:44:40] You go. So sorry.

John Dehlin [00:44:42] No, it's good. It's good.

Dre Nord [00:44:43] I've had three children.

John Dehlin [00:44:45] It's to the left.

Heather Gay [00:44:48] So kind of similar to Dre, I was, you know, I knew I was smart. I knew I was good at school. I tested really well. I had, you know, average grades because it was not that big of a deal.

Dre Nord [00:45:05] And then I.

Heather Gay [00:45:06] But I was also really good at playing the piano, and so I got a piano scholarship.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] You haven't played on the show yet, have you? Have you played?

Heather Gay [00:45:12] I played in, like, a home tour, just, like, a little ditty, but, you know, I've lost a lot of it because you lose most of your gifts when you dedicate everything to a family. But, yeah, I got a scholarship to the University of Utah because I auditioned. I had a piano teacher who was on faculty at the University of Utah, so it made sense for me to audition for their piano department. That I also kind of auditioned with byu, too, and the University of Utah gave me a big scholarship.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] Nice. Those are competitive.

Heather Gay [00:45:44] Yeah, it was exciting and thrilling. And then BYU gave me, like, a talent award, which was, you know, a nominal amount, a couple hundred bucks every semester, but you had to take eight hours of music credits and do all these things. And I assumed my parents would want me to go where I got the scholarship. I just assumed that it was just like, it's money, you know, it's this. It's honorable, its status. And they were pretty adamant that I did not attend the University of Utah. And this is when. This is, like, the biggest sliding driver,

John Dehlin [00:46:15] because why talk about that rivalry and what that means?

Heather Gay [00:46:18] They would say, well, they both went to Utah State and the University of Utah. So they. Neither of them attended byu, but they. I lived in Holiday, and if I was going to be a piano major at the University of Utah, it made more sense for me to live at home where I had a piano, where I had access to practice, where I could commute to class, rather than renting a piano practice room and living on campus and having kind of that collegiate experience. And so my parents approached me and basically said, we'll give you the money of your scholarship. We'll pay for everything. Like, you had the scholarship if you choose to go to byu.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] Because.

Heather Gay [00:46:58] Because what they said was, because, you know, my parents are very cool people. I don't. I mean, they, they had friends of all faiths. You know, they were missionaries. They were, you know, setting up people with LDs, social services. They were cool. And they, I think they. I almost feel like now looking back, like they just didn't want to say the backward dumbass thing, you know, so they said, we want you to have that experience of living away, not living at home nice and not, you know, we want you to have the experience of going away to school and we want you to go to byu.

John Dehlin [00:47:33] So I thought what you were going to say is that because BYU is the Lord's university. Because in my Mormon world, growing up, like, the University of Utah was viewed as rebellious Utah State. And I've got nine years of grad school at Utah State. I love the Aggies. But there was this perception that Utah State was kind of the farmer school

Heather Gay [00:47:50] or the Partier school, like the bad party school.

Dre Nord [00:47:52] Totally.

Heather Gay [00:47:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] But the BYU was where the righteous, faithful Mormons go. It was called the Lord's University.

Heather Gay [00:48:00] It is the Lord's University.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] But that wasn't why your parents wanted you to.

Heather Gay [00:48:03] Well, that's what they said to me. But they were. I knew we were BYU fans. I mean, even though I never even made the connection that they hadn't attended BYU because we were devout BYU fans. I remember one year, sixth grade, Mrs. Utavitz's class. For Halloween I went as a BYU fan. And I was so, for Halloween, so insulated and so naive to what that represented to the world. I thought BYU was like Auburn or Michigan or Ohio State. And I wrote BYU with a sharpie on these white. I wore my dad's BYU jacket. I wore a BYU hat. I didn't realize. And I kind of cringe now thinking back. Like I walked through that parade, like just blatant Mormonism, billboard style.

College Experiences and BYU Life

Dre Nord [00:48:43] Billboard style.

Heather Gay [00:48:43] And with zero shame, zero even awareness of what BYU was.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] When I went to byu, we like to think of it as the Harvard of the west, but I think only BYU thinks of it that way. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:48:58] And I think there was some status

John Dehlin [00:49:00] there for my family, for Berkeley or 10 other schools.

Heather Gay [00:49:04] Not.

John Dehlin [00:49:04] BYU is a good school, though. It's a. Academically, it's a very good school.

Heather Gay [00:49:08] Yeah, BYU wasn't great for me.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] Oh, okay. Okay. All right.

Heather Gay [00:49:12] I mean, I studied.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] Why not? Why not?

Heather Gay [00:49:14] Well, I chose my major was humanities because I knew I wanted I had had a teacher in fifth grade say, you should be an attorney. You are quick and you're a great debater. That's fifth grade, Mr. Johnson. No, it was Mr. Poole. Thank you. Mr. Pool cut off his fourth finger in a lawnmower, too. But Mr. Poole and I, that had stuck with me because that's. Now that I look back with an adult perspective, in hindsight, you know, no one ever mentioned a career to me.

Dre Nord [00:49:44] Yeah. It's not something that we are taught.

Heather Gay [00:49:47] No one had ever said you would be a great lawyer. No one said.

John Dehlin [00:49:49] Are you getting emotional about that? Yeah. Why?

Heather Gay [00:49:52] Because. Why did I always think I should be a lawyer? Why did I should have been a lawyer? Because Mr. Freaking Pool said that to me when I did a mock debate, you know, and I was 10.

Dre Nord [00:50:03] Why are we not saying those things to our daughters all the time?

Heather Gay [00:50:06] Why is that the only time I remember someone saying, you'd be a great lawyer? So I studied humanities because I would tell people, oh, because it would be great launch into, you know, law school. I studied humanities because I thought it'd make me a cooler mom, more evolved. Art, music, language. My sister got married, you know, a year, like a semester to BYU. She was engaged, you know, never went back.

John Dehlin [00:50:30] 19 years old. Like, 19 years old.

Heather Gay [00:50:31] Yeah. She was married at 19. I knew. I knew that. And I knew how happy that made my parents. There was not a moment where they're like, she's so young. She needs to finish her degree. She found a guy. Seems like. He seems to like you. He's a righteous Mormon. Huge wedding, you know.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] Yours?

Heather Gay [00:50:52] No, my sister. This is my sister. I was a sophomore.

John Dehlin [00:50:55] Okay, no, keep going, keep going.

Heather Gay [00:50:56] So, you know, I just knew that, like, you go to BYU because that's the greatest dating pool on the planet. To get your Mrs. To get your Mrs. To meet a man and to get married. And as much as we never said it out loud, I mean, I knew it. We all knew it. And if I didn't know it before I went to byu, I knew it two weeks in that my role there was not to, like, you know, prepare to, like, go, enter to learn and go forth and serve. Like it was. It was like, get married, enter to

John Dehlin [00:51:28] learn, go forth to have babies.

Dre Nord [00:51:29] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:51:30] And find your. And start your life. I wasn't starting my life as a college student. I was basically having, like, putting myself in the target rich environment to get married and to progress as a woman and as a member of the church. And the only way to do that, under the guise of Mormonism is to get married and to have children. And so I knew that, and that was just kind of always hanging over me. And I didn't get asked out ever. BYU.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] Were you in the dorms your freshman year?

Heather Gay [00:52:01] I was in. I lived in heritage halls in Fugal Hall. Cause I.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] You made your own food.

Heather Gay [00:52:05] Made my own food. And I thought it was like I was so independent. And I kind of always wanted to be, you know, the BYU coed, but different because I also didn't fit the norm, you know, I was loud, I was big. I was, you know.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] What do you mean, big?

Heather Gay [00:52:18] Like, I'm just like, big, you know, I'm not small and quiet and sweet.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] Big personality, you're saying.

Heather Gay [00:52:23] Well and big bodied, you know, Like, I'm not. I'm not diminutive, you know, in any way.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] And the BYU guys wanted cute. Little.

Heather Gay [00:52:31] Yeah, short. I had fp. I had what they call John fp.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] Tell us about that.

Heather Gay [00:52:35] Potential. Yeah, that's fat potential.

John Dehlin [00:52:37] Which means what?

Heather Gay [00:52:38] Tell people, like, you could get really fat after you have a baby. You got big bones. You seem to.

Dre Nord [00:52:43] You're not a 90 pounder.

Heather Gay [00:52:44] You're not a 90 pounder, you know, and you seem to like yourself. You seem to laugh loud. You seem to, you know, be sarcastic.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] Oh, what's that like to be in a culture that doesn't.

Heather Gay [00:52:56] You never date? I never got asked out at byu. I got asked out by one man who had stopped being homosexual and converted to the gospel and was now committed to being a righteous Mormon. But he had been gay for like five years. Wherever you're at, buddy, he's still happily married.

Dre Nord [00:53:14] Knock on. To a woman?

Heather Gay [00:53:16] Yeah, to a woman. And then I got asked out by another guy.

John Dehlin [00:53:21] Are you saying all four years or just that freshman year?

Heather Gay [00:53:23] No, all four years. Byu. I dated one guy, and he was. I met him on student council. I represented students at large on the. By USA Student Council, and he represented students of other faiths. And it was Charles Manteone Jr. And he was a Catholic guy that loved to ski and also was really impressed by the honor code because he was a man of honor. And so he came to byu and I really liked him and we dated a little bit, but of course, I didn't really date him. He was Catholic. I mean, this was, like, not why I was sent to this university. This was not my plan. So I. Yeah, I just. I got a job. Like, I worked 40 hours a week working, managing a tanning salon. And I also started a business and I was entrepreneur at byu. Yeah, at byu.

John Dehlin [00:54:07] How cool is that?

Heather Gay [00:54:08] Yeah, it was called Steelhead Designs and it was a little earring business. But I got a couple of big contracts with Nordstrom and Sundance. And I had some people that. Some older students who had been entrepreneurial and kind of invested in me and helped me. Charlie Friedman, that started Downeast Outfitters, he was a huge inspiration to me. And it was just a barbecue where he said, heather, if you want to. I'm like, charlie, let me sell these at your store. Cause he had started Down East Outfitters, and he was like, yeah, if you wanna sell these at your store, you have to make them for $3. I'll buy em for 6, we sell them for 12. And that's all he said to me. And I was like, I'll figure out a way to make them for three. And so I got a team and I started making jewelry. And I ended up winning BYU's Entrepreneur Student of the Year honorable mention.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] Oh, wow.

Heather Gay [00:54:54] I lost to Jonathan Kuhn. That started 1-800-contacts. And then I don't remember who. I kind of got third place. I don't remember who got second place. But that was a huge honor. And, like, I don't think my parents even knew about it. And guess what? Nobody at school gave two shits about it. And if I tried to talk about it with, like, pride or thrill, like, it would have been like, okay, okay. You'll be selling Doterra oils in about, you know, five years. Like, if you've got it in you.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] So what years were you there about?

Heather Gay [00:55:25] I was there 92 through. Well, I mean, technically I graduated in 96. Cause then I went on a mission, but I.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] So we overlapped.

Heather Gay [00:55:33] Really?

John Dehlin [00:55:33] I was at BYU in 92. In 93. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:55:35] Oh, my gosh.

Dre Nord [00:55:36] Wow.

Heather Gay [00:55:37] I lived in Heritage Halls and then I lived in Chatham town on like Ninth East.

John Dehlin [00:55:41] So you would have been there when the September 6th were excommunicated. Now, you probably never heard of. You don't even know who I'm talking about. Does that ever ring a bell?

Heather Gay [00:55:48] The only thing I remember being controversial was one of the female English professors.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] Cecilia Farr.

Heather Gay [00:55:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] Or Gail Houston, one of the two. What about them?

Heather Gay [00:55:59] Just that they were heretics and were preaching.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] One prayed to Mother in Heaven.

Heather Gay [00:56:03] Is that what I mean? I just remember they were.

John Dehlin [00:56:06] Gayle Houston prayed to Mother in Heaven and she got kicked out of BYU as a professor because she advocated praying to Mother in Heaven. Because Mormons believe that there's Mother God and Father God and potentially Father God and many Mother gods. But you pray to the dad, you pray to the guy. Yeah, but she was praying to the woman, and she got in trouble. Kicked out of byu. My. My. My wife taught. Took classes with Gail, but then Cecilia Kanchar Farr, it was like pro choice and, like, marching on the Capitol steps. And abortion should be a woman's right to choose. You know, she was booted as well, so. Okay, you remember some of that.

Heather Gay [00:56:39] I mean, I remember it. Yeah. And I. I was just very much, like, committed to being, like, as. As. What's the word? Like, as desirable of a specimen for marriage as possible. That was, like, what I was deeply committed to, and it wasn't happening for me at byu.

John Dehlin [00:56:56] But really quick, how did you deal with the depression and the sadness and the loneliness of feeling unwanted by everyone or not everyone?

Heather Gay [00:57:06] I never acknowledged it as that. You know, we don't just, like. No, it's just like, I have to find my soulmate, and it's probably things I need to change about myself or the fact that I drank sophomore year in high school, you know.

John Dehlin [00:57:20] You thought you were unworthy. Yeah. Or.

Heather Gay [00:57:23] I just. They must. I just felt like. I mean. But I also. I mean, I could tell what time it was. You know what I mean? Like, I knew that I was not. I knew I didn't have a lot of play with this community in terms of, like, sexual prowess with the boys. I mean, I was. I had traveled. I had been to other schools. I had, like. I got asked out by a professional football player. You know, I. I would walk through an airport, and I knew men liked me. You know, I didn't suffer from that,

John Dehlin [00:57:55] but you weren't the type.

Heather Gay [00:57:57] Mormon men didn't like me.

John Dehlin [00:57:58] You weren't the type.

Heather Gay [00:57:59] They just didn't. And I didn't blame them. So I didn't feel sadness or depression. I mean, I think I felt loneliness. I had a lot of best guy friends, you know, who would. We traveled together and had the best times, and we're, like, very, very close. But then they always liked the appropriate choice. And I understood that. I totally understood that. But I knew that I knew what I had to offer. And so I just was kind of, I guess, just assuming I was biding my time. I didn't have any career aspirations. I didn't have any. It was almost like, here I am, I'm graduating, I'm still not married. Holy shit, what do I do? And so I went on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:58:37] Yes, you did that. So tell our listeners. Mormon missions are different now. Because now, in 2020. Both boys and girls are encouraged to go on missions. Boys when they're 18, girls when they're 19. It was different back in our day. And not all women were encouraged to go on missions.

Dre Nord [00:58:56] No.

John Dehlin [00:58:56] And so talk about that.

Heather Gay [00:58:58] So it was 1997, and I kind of. With a friend, we just looked at each other and we were like, I'll go if you go. Because neither of us were married. And kind of at that crossroads, you know, we didn't know what our graduation and our deadline was approaching, our expiration date was approaching, and we kind of made the choice. And I remember telling my parents, and this is when it's tricky, I think as like, a devout Mormon parent. And it's very different now than it was 20 years ago. You know, to be clear, only girls that couldn't get married or were weird when on missions. I mean, that's really.

John Dehlin [00:59:41] And sometimes I. This is going to sound awful, but sometimes overweight.

Heather Gay [00:59:45] Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, you had to be. You were undesirable, or not married yet. Not married yet. Like, you would graduate from BYU and you weren't married. Like, go on a mission if you can pull it off. And like, I remember telling my parents and trying to spin it, like. But we all knew, you know, we all knew that, like, my sister got married by the time she was 19. Here I am, 21, unmarried, no prospects on the horizon, and I'm gonna go on a mission. And I saw them be supportive, but also be like, oh, geez, you know,

Dre Nord [01:00:25] like, almost like, we saw this coming, or.

Heather Gay [01:00:27] No, I don't think. I think they just thought, like, she's going on that path, you know, like, the return missionary. And there was. I'm sure they were happy that I wasn't saying, like, listen, I'm joining the circus, or, you know, I'm joining the cult. But I don't think they were truly thrilled. I think that they would have rather had me getting married to some sort of Mormon prince. And this. The reason I mention that now is because they might have a different explanation. My mom might say differently. And of course they would say differently if you were to ask them, because I knew at the end of the day that we toed the line. We said what we needed to say to be appropriate, accommodating, socialized Mormons. But that's what we presented to the world. And I knew that the core values of my family and of my parents were marriage, temple marriage, no other option, and family.

John Dehlin [01:01:22] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:01:23] And then I ended up serving a mission in France, and When I came home, I was gonna go live in D.C. with some of my very well established Mormon friends who were smart and had graduated from byu, had made the decision to not go on a mission and were furthering their education and working in D.C. i believe my friend was like, Margaret. Wasn't she getting her MBA and her master's, like that joint program at like, I mean, she's public policy and MBA at the same time. Also going to Harvard for business. And I was gonna go live with her and be her roommate. And this was exciting to me because I knew of the East Coast Mormons, there were two wards you wanted to be in. The Colonial ward singles. The Colonial ward, or the Huntington beach singles ward. There were two magnets. Those singles were east side, west side. And I told my dad and my dad said, I don't think that's the right choice for you. And they were adamantly opposed to it.

John Dehlin [01:02:22] So you're going to the East.

Heather Gay [01:02:23] Yeah. And he said out loud, like, single career minded women is not the path I see for you. And you need to focus on getting married. And probably cited a couple references or Ezra Taft Benson. Yeah. You know, like this is where your

John Dehlin [01:02:38] goal is and no success can compensate. That's in the show. Yeah, you say that right.

Heather Gay [01:02:43] Yeah, loosely. Paraphrase Harold B. Lee, no success. And David O. McKay said it too. It's kind of a combo of those.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] No success can compensate for failure in the home.

Heather Gay [01:02:52] Yeah. And also like no success you have outside the home will ever equal what you do as a mother and a wife. And so I, my sister lived in California. I made the decision to go to the Huntington beach ward because that was more palatable because I went there with, not with career minded women, but with fun sun loving surf bunnies that were also, you know, I had a better chance of, you know, of getting married there.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] Yeah. Oh no.

Dre Nord [01:03:21] And you did. You made it happen.

Heather Gay [01:03:22] I did. And I met and married my ex husband within. You know, I was there for a year and then the day he moved into the ward, you snatched him up. Yeah, well, he snatched me up. Cause he was new. He was new to it. He was new to that mecca of like the men having like the pick of the litter, so to speak.

John Dehlin [01:03:39] You know, so gross.

Heather Gay [01:03:40] That heavy, heavy environment where they didn't even have to ask girls out because we were just pining for them and baking them things and dropping things off and showing our prowess in like decorating and oh, they don't have a Christmas tree, let's do one for them. You know, oh, it's Easter. Let's make Easter baskets for all the boys in 4B. You know, we did it all. And he came in and, like, met me and kind of courted me, and we met and got married within nine months. So that was like, you found it.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] You did it. You nailed it.

Heather Gay [01:04:08] I did it.

John Dehlin [01:04:09] You nailed it.

Heather Gay [01:04:10] And how grateful am I for that?

John Dehlin [01:04:12] Do you use his first name or do you not use his first name?

Heather Gay [01:04:14] That's Billy.

John Dehlin [01:04:15] Billy.

Heather Gay [01:04:15] Billy Gay.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] Billy Gay.

Heather Gay [01:04:16] Billy Gay iii.

The BYU Honor Code and Mission Stories

John Dehlin [01:04:18] So, Dre, swing the microphone around and show people your shirt. Oh, okay. So tell them what you're supposed to do.

Heather Gay [01:04:23] This dream.

John Dehlin [01:04:24] Tell them what your shirt says.

Dre Nord [01:04:26] Honor code.

John Dehlin [01:04:26] What? Okay. And that's a tie to the show. Go ahead and pull it back. That's a tie to the show.

Dre Nord [01:04:31] Yes.

Heather Gay [01:04:31] And the honor code restricted you from having a boy in your apartment past 9pm any sort of immorality, drinking, smoking, swearing, wearing clothes without sleeves, wearing skirts above your knee. Like, the honor code was policed by other students. And you would also could be called in for an honor code violation if you failed to report a fellow student who was blatantly violating the honor code. So even if I'm living my best life and my roommate is boffing your boyfriend the next room, I could lose my position at the university if I did not turn that person in. So honor code was like, life.

Dre Nord [01:05:11] It's what you lived.

Heather Gay [01:05:13] It was policed by the other students. And it was very much kind of like that mentality of just like, better take her. Better her than me. You know, like, so that's why the shirt. Honor code. What is so funny? Because.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] Can people buy that?

Heather Gay [01:05:29] Yeah.

Dre Nord [01:05:31] Yeah. On our website, beautylablaser.com, we sell them there. They're pretty funny. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:37] Okay. So one question I do have to ask about honor code. What do you think? Were you. Did you ever lift up your shirt ever, and were you the type of student that would break the honor code as far as you remember?

Heather Gay [01:05:51] As far as I remember, like, at byu, I would have broken the honor code with any guy that asked me to. No one was knocking on my door. No one wanted to peer under my shirt. Nobody would have looked had I flashed them. I was invisible at byu.

John Dehlin [01:06:07] So you weren't a party girl?

Heather Gay [01:06:08] I was not a party girl. I would have longed. I would have longed to be any sort of girl at byu.

John Dehlin [01:06:14] I was invisible.

Heather Gay [01:06:15] I was, you know, getting my degree and working at a tanning salon 40 hours a week. And I was. I don't know. How to explain it? I had zero play with the Mormon community of men. I would leave campus and, like, remember that I was even an attractive woman. Like, I have that community. And I'm sure there were guys that liked me that never, you know, admitted it, but I did not. I was not dating.

John Dehlin [01:06:46] Yeah. Anything worth mentioning about your mission at all? You said you were a year and a half in France. Was it cool? Was it awesome? Should we just not even talk about it?

Heather Gay [01:06:55] No. I loved my. I mean, I loved my mission. I was a very, very good missionary. The AP's had a sticker of my face and my companion's face on the back of their tags. We had the highest baptisms in the history of that mission. I think it's because only young, single women or single mothers were interested in hearing the gospel. And so in France. In France. But I had a couple pivotal moments in my mission where I realized I was asking these women who were kind of my same age to leave everything they had ever known. And I saw the future of the church there, and there was no priesthood. There was no way to sustain it. And I had a couple big moments where I thought, this doesn't feel right. But it doesn't matter, because I'm here to represent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and to bring people to God, you know? So I just suppressed a lot of it.

John Dehlin [01:07:50] Suppressed feeling.

Heather Gay [01:07:51] The feeling that the feeling of being pulled in two directions like this might not be noble. And I have one pivotal story where this woman had gone through all these things, and we tried to get her to quit smoking, quit drinking, quit having an affair with her boss, and she was doing all these things, and we thought she was our golden contact. And then. And she kind of dropped off of the discussions, and we ran into her on the plaza, and she was jubilant and glowing and so happy. And she was like, I took all the money that I was saving for tithing. I went shopping, and I've never felt more alive. And, you know, I remember her walking off, and I, like, looked at my companion and, like, I felt deep, deep despair. And I attributed it to her rejecting the gospel. But if I had been completely honest with myself, the despair I felt was because I wanted to go with her.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Ooh. Why?

Heather Gay [01:08:55] Because she was happier and I wanted. I loved her as a human being. Like, I had more in common with her than with my companion. And I felt this despair because I could never do what she's doing. Take the money I'd been saving for tithing, spend it, and Feel the joy she felt. And I knew that because in the context of who I was and who I was raised to be, I could never be that carefree about leaving the church or defying the principles of the gospel. Like, I was in it. So either I was gonna be in it and sad, or I was gonna have to be against it and sad, because it was always going to be in reference to. To who I was born to be and how I was living my life in that moment. And that's another that brings it back to Dre, because that's why I feel like it's hard for me to reconcile, because you left so long ago that it's like now you are who you are. But I feel like I'm always going to be either the person that's on this side of the fence. Oh, sorry. On this side of the fence. Or that side of the fence. And it never leaves the reference of who I am. You know what I mean? My Mormonism is so fundamental to my identity that even if I were to not be Mormon, I'm now not Mormon. I'm not just myself.

Dre Nord [01:10:12] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] Okay, so, Dre, we're coming to you right now. But before we do, I'm going to ask you to do one thing, Heather, that I ask people who serve missions in foreign countries, are you willing to bear your testimony in French or, you know, tell.

Heather Gay [01:10:25] Well, I can do that.

John Dehlin [01:10:26] Give the audience a sense for how you would have borne your testimony in French.

Heather Gay [01:10:29] I will say, bonjour, je suis sardines. Je suis un missionaires de l' eglise de J's dess gener. J' AI au cune message pour vous et votre famille. And I would say I could do the first vision. Je vous a de sous de matte une cologne de sous de la soleil, et qui de sant. Peut a peu. Just. I'm going to paraphrase but.

John Dehlin [01:11:06] And tell. Tell everyone what you just said.

Heather Gay [01:11:08] I just said, hello, I'm a missionary with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and I. I'm here with a message of joy for you and your family. And then I would. You know, we would tell the story of the first vision. Like, I saw above my head a column of light that was more brilliant than the sun that descended just a little until it fell over me. And there were two figures, two men, and one demonstrated the other and said, here is my son. Listen to him. You know, Hear him. Behold my beloved son.

John Dehlin [01:11:45] Hear him and tell us why you're getting emotional about this that.

Dre Nord [01:11:47] Well, I don't know, John, Actually, it's just tender.

Heather Gay [01:11:52] He's tender because I just. I have. I'm just sad that my life is not my own and never was and never probably will be.

Dre Nord [01:12:07] It will be.

Heather Gay [01:12:10] And I feel shame. I feel shame that I sent that message over and over and over. And then I'm not now I'm not living it. You know, I feel shame and regret. But I. And I feel sad that I couldn't be in France with those people and love them as they were and embrace the things I loved about their culture. Instead, I had. You know, instead I was superior and I was dogmatic and I was absolutely committed to no other option. Then this is the truth. And your life will be better and you'll be happier if you live it. And that has not been proven to be true for me. But I taught it to other people who were just minding their own business, living their best life. And I came in and promised them heaven and earth, you know.

John Dehlin [01:13:12] And what hasn't been true for you?

Heather Gay [01:13:15] Just that the plan of happiness hasn't really worked out for me, I guess you could say.

Dre Nord [01:13:24] I think we're promised that if we just follow the gospel, we'll be happy.

Heather Gay [01:13:30] I think that that's the most sinister part of my faith is even reading the family proclamation. It doesn't only say, this is like the doctrine of God. It says, these are the principles for which happiness in. On earth will be best achieved.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] You got it memorized?

Dre Nord [01:13:46] Yeah, of course.

Heather Gay [01:13:47] And Jesus the Christ, all the things. And that happiness is the sinister word. You know, like men are. Adam felt that men might be. Men are. That they might have joy. And. And I think there's a lot of people out there living the principles but not feeling joy. And we don't recognize that. Like, it just. We instead turn inward and say, well, we aren't doing enough or we aren't committed enough or we aren't living it enough. And I think that's probably why I get emotional. I don't know. It's just weird to say it, to remember who I was. I felt powerful as a missionary. I think I'm a good saleswoman. I think I am good at marketing. I think I'm. All the gifts that I now recognize as gifts that were never recognized before. I think made me a great member of the church, made me a great missionary, made me a great Relief Society president, you know, made me a great young women's leader. And I'm sad that, like, Those were the only ways that, like, anything I was, anything I was born with was put to use. Because now I can't embrace that. You know, I can't have that be a part of my narrative because there's so much shame because I'm not continuing it. So it's like I'm eradicated. And like, when I finally came into my own, it's still invalid because, you know, I didn't persevere. I didn't press forward with steadfastness. You know, I didn't make it it till the end. And here I am sitting on the couch in Mormon stories, which I used to think was like, the devil.

John Dehlin [01:15:27] What?

Heather Gay [01:15:28] I just was like, oh, nope, nope, nope. Not the Mormon stories. Don't approach me with that, Dre. I'm not that far gone. Yeah. So that's probably get emotional. I digress.

Faith Transitions and Doubting the Church

John Dehlin [01:15:42] That's beautiful, Heather. That was beautiful. And I really appreciate you going deep. You know, I'm going to just say, and this is probably stereotypical and rude, but you watch Real Housewives and you almost think like, these aren't real people. I don't know if you understand that someone who's new to viewing this, sometimes it can feel. I mean, it's fun and it's exciting and it's dramatic and it's emotional, you

Dre Nord [01:16:10] know, but it's entertainment.

Heather Gay [01:16:10] But it's entertainment.

John Dehlin [01:16:12] And you sometimes go like, I wonder what these people are really like behind the camera. And I know that these people are wise and profound and smart, or at least you are. Right. And I'm sure they are, too. But I love that we're able to kind of go deep. It's so beautiful and powerful. So I have to ask you one question. So you bore your testimony. You talked about the church. You talked about Joseph Smith. So talk really quickly about the beliefs, the Mormon beliefs that were most important to you, because you don't really get to dig into that. Or at least that we haven't seen so far on the show.

Heather Gay [01:16:46] Yeah. And I would never. It would almost be blasphemous. You know, it's such a nuanced thing, like, you know, the intricacies of our faith, and especially Mormonism, where it's. You could take something for shock factor and have it just be, you know.

John Dehlin [01:16:58] Exploited.

Heather Gay [01:16:59] Yeah, exploited completely. And that's not the purpose of the show, is to not teach people about Mormonism. It's just that I can't really display my life unless I talk about it. Cause that's why I'm so messed up. Folks you know, or wonderful or whatever. But it's like. And I.

John Dehlin [01:17:16] The question is the parts of your testimony that were most important to you as a missionary. And after.

Heather Gay [01:17:21] Listen, I am a tbm. I am a true believing Mormon. I understood that, you know, like, tithing's a principle of faith that, you know, I have no problem suspending disbelief for Urim and Thummim and the way that the plates were no longer here, you know, that's what God was going for. You know, like, I just. I think that religion, for me, every part of my testimony was important. Like, there wasn't any.

John Dehlin [01:17:53] Tell us the five or seven or eight things that were, like, the most.

Heather Gay [01:17:56] Okay. The Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:17:57] What about it?

Heather Gay [01:17:57] The Book of Mormon, I thought, and I'm scared to say this in front of Dre and you, but, like, was the most correct book written on the face of the earth, and that a man would do more by abiding by its principles than, you know, than any other book. And I've read the Book of Mormon a lot of times, and it always, you know, it's weird and it's convoluted and it's, you know, made up names, but there are nuggets of wisdom and truth that have continually showed up in my life, you know, and I'll say things and think that's a scripture, you know, or like, here's something that, like, you know, on a TED Talk, and I'll be like, well, yeah, that's Alma, 29, you know, like. Or that's Moroni's promise, you know, And I have. I have a testimony of, and I hate to say the veracity of the Book of Mormon, but. But the Book of Mormon is a wonderful book. And for the first time, I'm starting to say, like, well, you know what? Untamed by Glennon Doyle is also a wonderful book that informs my life, you know, and so is A Tale of Two Cities, and so is Heart of Darkness.

John Dehlin [01:19:13] Whoa, you just dropped Charles Dickens and

Heather Gay [01:19:16] Joseph Conrad on Mormon stories, you know, and. And I used to. I don't like to even say in past tense because I'm still walking through all of it, but I don't know how to disentangle myself from the principles that have enriched my life and that have informed my life. So, like, I think differently about artists and women's roles because I put them all in context of, like, the gospel plan, you know what I mean? And I still can't extrapolate from my own identity the shame I feel that I'm not A full time mom. That I'm not the mother, that my mother was to me in many ways and that I am letting down generations of people that sacrificed everything so that I could be privileged enough to sit here and like say, I don't know if it's true, you know?

John Dehlin [01:20:18] Sure.

Heather Gay [01:20:20] So I believe everything about it and I believe nothing about it.

John Dehlin [01:20:25] You're right in the thick of it. So really quickly we'll do like a firing round where I'm just going to list some Mormon doctrines and you just say what it means to you. So Heavenly Father. What is Heavenly Father and you. This is before your faith crisis.

Heather Gay [01:20:38] So like, okay, as a tbs.

John Dehlin [01:20:41] Yeah. Heavenly Father means what?

Heather Gay [01:20:42] An all knowing, all loving, omniscient, omnipotent God that knows me individually and loves me eternally. Jesus, Jesus Christ, his son, born of a divine father, immortal mother. The only way, an advocate for us before the Father, the only one capable of redeeming us and bridging the gap between mortal life and eternal glory.

John Dehlin [01:21:10] Holy Ghost.

Heather Gay [01:21:11] Holy Ghost is an integral part of the Godhead, but does not have a body, for if he did, he could not inhabit ours. And is the light of Christ within us that helps direct us. Is the Jiminy. I used to picture him as Jiminy Cricket. A wonderful angel man that would guide me away from anything that would hurt me or cause me cause enmity between me and God. The Bible, a wonderful work of prophets that has been, you know, misinterpreted by, and now contains like archaic cultural code because it was, you know, but it's if divinely translated and it's the King James Version, I think it is, you know, contains true principles. But I cannot read a Bible, not in the King James Version.

John Dehlin [01:22:01] Right, right.

Heather Gay [01:22:02] That, that I am. That pentameter is the only way it even, you know, resonates with me.

John Dehlin [01:22:07] Joseph Smith.

Heather Gay [01:22:09] Joseph Smith, a brilliant. Prophet of God that received revelation and light and brought forth the fastest growing religion on the face of the planet.

John Dehlin [01:22:26] And what was his character like?

Heather Gay [01:22:28] I think that God can do amazing things through extremely flawed human beings. I know because I am an extremely flawed human being and I have done great things in the name of God,

John Dehlin [01:22:38] you know,

Heather Gay [01:22:42] so I think he was probably all the things that people say. He was probably a pedophile, probably a womanizer, but also probably a great friend, fun guy, charming and hopeful and burdened, you know, with the vicissitudes of life and being the founder of a religion.

John Dehlin [01:23:12] No, okay. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Dre Nord [01:23:16] You know,

John Dehlin [01:23:19] this is pre. Pre Faith Christian, the truest church on

Heather Gay [01:23:22] the face of the planet and the only church that contains the restored priesthood and direct lineage back to Jesus Christ and to Peter and the. You know, I just believe that, like, the church is heavily flawed because we are humans running it, but we're doing the best we can and our heart's in the right place and God's gonna figure it all out in the end. And even though we keep gays out of heaven, we still love them on earth. And even though we, you know, changed our mind about Black people in 1978, we at least changed our mind and we're making up for it now, you know, and we're doing the best we can because. But we are, you know, we're the only true church on the face of the earth.

John Dehlin [01:24:13] Only true.

Dre Nord [01:24:13] True.

John Dehlin [01:24:13] Yeah, priesthood.

Heather Gay [01:24:15] The priesthood is a real tangible. The power of God restored by Joseph Smith through Peter, James and John. And that it is, you know, that every male that has been endowed with the priesthood can trace his priesthood lineage back to Jesus Christ and that the laying on of hands is a real tangible way to transfer priesthood power.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] What about the maleness of the priesthood? How did you think about that?

Heather Gay [01:24:46] You know, God had to balance things out. And as females, we are divine. You know, we create life and they organize and have to have their own thing so they don't feel bad about themselves. That's like literally what we do.

John Dehlin [01:24:59] The priest is like the concession prize.

Heather Gay [01:25:02] Yeah, because, you know, we are the mother of all. That's all living. And truly, if you, you know, temple doctrine, you know, our children are sealed to us. And so we had to have a way to make that link back to a man. And so, you know, myself and my posterity, it's like my womb is blessed. And so I need a reason to need you. And so it made sense to me in a perfect, full circle way. Families, families are eternal. And what's sealed on earth is still in heaven. Why are you guys doing this to me? So stupid.

John Dehlin [01:25:41] And,

Heather Gay [01:25:44] you know, a family is the greatest way to have happiness on earth and eternal glory. And like, you know, families can be together forever through heavenly Father's plan and no empty chairs, you know, meaning we've all got to get back there together. And it doesn't mean anything if one of us doesn't get back there.

John Dehlin [01:26:06] Back where?

Heather Gay [01:26:07] To heaven.

John Dehlin [01:26:08] What part?

Heather Gay [01:26:09] The celestial kingdom. Eternal progression. Exaltation. It is.

John Dehlin [01:26:14] What's the difference between celestial kingdom and other places in heaven?

Heather Gay [01:26:18] Well, I've heard that if you saw the telestial, you'd kill yourself just to get there, because it's nice, too. But the only way to progress eternally and to have sex eternally and to be loved eternally and become a God.

John Dehlin [01:26:30] Right.

Heather Gay [01:26:30] And to become a God and to, you know, progress eternally, because wouldn't it be terrible if you were just not able to progress? And I'm like, I haven't progressed in, like, 15 years, and it has been pretty terrible, but is, you know, through saving ordinances and the sealing powers of the temple. And I thought it was all weird, but I also surrendered, you know, was able to suspend my disbelief because the promises were so great, you know?

John Dehlin [01:27:01] That was beautiful. Thank you so much for being willing to do that. I wasn't trying to be mean or cruel, but that's beautiful. And it's something nobody gets to see in the show, right?

Dre Nord [01:27:10] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:27:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:12] Thank you for doing that. Are you feeling okay? Do you have any reflections after sharing that?

Heather Gay [01:27:18] No, it's just that, you know, I was. When I was thinking about coming on here, I had, like, kind of steeled myself up, like, you know, why don't I believe? But it's so much easier to say, like, why I do believe than it is to justify why I don't believe. So I appreciate you, like, drawing a line in the sand. Like, before, I was burdened with this awareness and burdened with actually lack of options, because if my family hadn't imploded and I was still sealed to my, you know, still in a nuclear family, I guess, because I'm still sealed to my husband, but, you know, everything changed in context of that. But, like, before my faith crisis, this is how I believed and how I conducted myself, and I don't necessarily feel that way right now. And even if I did feel that way, which obviously I still do, there are too many horrible atrocities being committed in the name of righteousness and the church and to the people I love and to the people that I actually want to be in heaven with. Like, when I think about being in heaven forever, like, first of all, my OD friend right here, like, I don't want to go if she's not there. And my gay best friends and my friend's transgender child, you know, I.

John Dehlin [01:28:42] How about me and you?

Heather Gay [01:28:44] Yeah, you're an od, too. Like, the people that I want to be with forever are not, you know, Sister Marshall that's never missed visiting, teaching a day in her life. And I just got my Snickers bar taped to my door because, God damn it, she's not gonna miss A month. I don't care if she's on television and won't answer the door. You know, that's not who I wanna be with forever. But I'm pretty sure she'll be there, you know? Cause she's crossed all the T's and dotted all the I's, and she's never wavered, and I'm wavering. And so. So maybe it's like, I don't want to be a part of any club that wants me as a member. And so I'm just working through all of that right now.

John Dehlin [01:29:23] So. Beautiful. Thank you.

Heather Gay [01:29:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:27] Okay, Dre, it's coming back to you now.

Dre Nord [01:29:29] I mean, I don't know how I can follow that. No.

John Dehlin [01:29:32] Well, I'll get you. I'll get you, too.

Dre Nord [01:29:34] It's so amazing. No, but I, like, remember feeling the same way. And, like, you will find an identity outside of. Of all of this. It's taken me a long time, but you'll get there, and it just feels

Heather Gay [01:29:50] like your identity is either pro or anti. You know, it's never. Not. It's never outside of the scope of Mormonism.

Dre Nord [01:29:59] But that's what I mean. Not to, like, you know, sidetrack a little bit, but that's what we were talking about in the car. And that's why I love what John's doing is, like. I feel like when I did leave the church, I was totally anti and, like, wanted to be a missionary for people to leave the church and because I was so angry. And John's podcast and, like, a lot of the things that he has done for many, many years, I feel like has helped create that gray area of, like, we don't have to hate the church, and we can also not believe in the church. And it's okay to still love the church, love the principals, be grateful for Sister Marshall who taped, you know, Snickers, Barry Andy's mints.

Heather Gay [01:30:46] It wasn't a Snickers bar.

Dre Nord [01:30:47] Okay, well, I mean, less credit to you, Sister Marshall, but I think a lot of times when we leave the church, at least for me, I kind of threw it all out and was like, well, screw those guys. They tricked me. I'm pissed. And a lot of what John's doing has allowed me to remain in gratitude for the things that I was taught that way. And there is a middle ground. I know it seems like there's not because it's so polarized right now, especially with everything that's happening with stupid fair Mormon and people being crazy. It seems like the divide is ever growing but that's all the more reason to really dive in and say the things that you're saying. Of like, I believe it all and I don't believe it all. There are so many people that feel the same way.

John Dehlin [01:31:34] I think a lot of active Mormons. You know how like so many. It's so Mormon to like have the elephants in the room where people just don't talk about anything important. There are so many active, devout Mormons that don't believe. Some or all of the church that go to that are in the pews every Sunday when it's not Covid because they just stay quiet because they're terrified to ever talk up. And so, yes, there's all sorts of ways to be a Mormon. And there are people. And the other thing that we forget is in other religions, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Episcopalians, Catholics, you know, you go when you want, you don't go when you don't want. You. You believe the things you want to believe, you don't believe the things you don't want to believe. It's like a cafeteria approach. And that's actually okay. And they're just glad when you show up. Like, that's religion in almost every other American religion. Not Scientologists, not Jehovah's Witnesses, not Mormons, maybe not Orthodox Jews, but besides that, that's how most Americans do religion. And we're just new, we're just young. And so we haven't figured it out yet, but we are totally, as a church, more and more moving to the place where you can just be whatever type of Mormon you want and they're just going to be glad to have you because frankly, they're losing so many people, right? So if you want to be Mormon, if you want to stay Mormon, you could totally do that, you know. But that's a journey you're gonna have to go on.

Dre Nord [01:32:46] I think that would be difficult. At least that would be difficult for me because of the types of Mormons we were or are. That would be tough to be that 2.0 of the cafeteria style. I don't know, Heather, you're an all in person and I'm the same way.

Heather Gay [01:33:01] Like, and I don't believe that the family proclamation is true or real. And I don't believe. I mean, a lot of what I said, I believed. You know, I believed all of it, and I believed none of it too, you know, so I'm still.

John Dehlin [01:33:16] You're in the journey, you're in the thick of it. It's beautiful.

Dre Nord [01:33:18] She's in the thick of it.

John Dehlin [01:33:19] Good work.

Heather Gay [01:33:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:33:20] It's called maturity. It's called progress. Like, you're growing now. You weren't growing for. You were growing for a few years. You're growing now. And guess what? Growth is pain.

Heather Gay [01:33:29] It is painful.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] It's painful.

Heather Gay [01:33:31] And it's so interesting just in terms of the television show, you know, Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Like, I. The one thing that kept me from deciding to do it was not, will this affect my children? Will this, you know, embarrass my family? It was, will I get a letter from the church saying, you are excommunicated and we have removed your name. And, like, I just remember sitting there on the plane, coming back from, like, one of the final things, thinking, this is a moment. And, like, what is more important to me? And because. And I. And I. I made the choice, you know, I said, I'm willing to risk it, but I did it hoping that I would never get the letter. Let's just be fair, you know, I. Maybe I can slide under the radar, not get that letter and still do this, but the fact that that was the biggest obstacle would blow most, like, would blow a Lutheran's mind. You know, what's the Lutheran Church gonna think about this? Like, why do you care? You know, I had a friend that said, listen, attendance isn't compulsory. Like, I'm like, are you still Lutheran? Well, yeah. I don't have to go to church to be Lutheran. Yeah. Yeah, I guess I am. Attendance isn't counted. It's not part of the program. And I'm like, well, I haven't gone to church because of COVID for a year, and I don't feel Mormon anymore. You know, like, yeah, people have assumed I've moved or been, you know, struck down or will be. It's just. It's all. It's so interesting that even at this, when I haven't been living as a Mormon for years, you know, but in the shadows, and I still. That was the one thing that would keep me from kind of potentially, like, the biggest opportunity in my life that had ever crossed my life to this path, I would have turned it down to remain in the shadows and to toe the line as a good Mormon girl. Even if I didn't live it or believe it, I would have done that for the glory of the church.

John Dehlin [01:35:26] Beautiful. The good news is I've been friends with some Mormon celebrities. So, like Dan Reynolds of Imagine Dragons and Tyler Glenn. They don't excommunicate celebrities because it's really bad pr. So you're probably. You're probably sick, too. Yeah. You're probably sick.

Dre Nord [01:35:41] You're in.

Heather Gay [01:35:42] I'm in.

John Dehlin [01:35:43] Yeah. Because it's. How awful would that look? Right?

Heather Gay [01:35:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:46] It'd be global news. Yeah. They'll excommunicate.

Dre Nord [01:35:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:49] Yeah.

Dre Nord [01:35:50] Good to know.

John Dehlin [01:35:51] That was beautiful. Thank you so much.

Heather Gay [01:35:53] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:35:54] We're not done with you.

Heather Gay [01:35:55] I know, I know. But I'm ready to turn the time over now to Sister Nord.

Women's Roles and Expectations in Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:36:00] Sister Nord.

Dre Nord [01:36:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:36:02] So you met this cute boy. You got married.

Dre Nord [01:36:04] Yeah, we got married.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] Living the dream.

Dre Nord [01:36:08] Okay. Well, the dream was short lived, I hate to say.

John Dehlin [01:36:12] Did you believe all the things she believed?

Dre Nord [01:36:14] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:36:14] So you. That could have been your testimony.

Dre Nord [01:36:16] That could have been my testimony, too. Absolutely. I resonate with all of that. I was a full true believer, no questions asked.

John Dehlin [01:36:24] Anything else you want to add to it that was really important to you?

Dre Nord [01:36:27] No, no. I think Heather and I had a similar. I mean, we've shared this. Hopefully it won't reveal you, Heather. But I was such a believer and didn't question anything. And I think the only time that I had a weird, like, twinge of like, ooh, maybe. I don't know if this feels good, was when I went through the temple. Well, I'd taken out or I had received my endowment. I loved it. Like, some people talk about the temple being weird, but, like, I was just like, this is real life. The earth is weird. This is what it's supposed to be. I loved it. I was just so thrilled to finally have my temple blessings. And I just loved it and was deeply moved and loved all of it. The only thing when I went through was when you had to. Do you allowed to talk about this. Okay, sure. When you talked about vowing to your husband.

John Dehlin [01:37:31] So during the. During the wedding. During the endowment.

Dre Nord [01:37:35] Yes. Not during the ceiling, but yeah. During the endowment, when Eve, you know, has to obey the husband.

John Dehlin [01:37:41] The husband covenants to hearken to God.

Dre Nord [01:37:43] Yes.

Heather Gay [01:37:43] And the woman covenants to hearken, which has changed now.

Dre Nord [01:37:47] Yeah, I've heard you went through the woman had to covenant to hearken God. Yeah, because I went through in 2001.

John Dehlin [01:37:53] And you had to say what?

Dre Nord [01:37:55] I had to vow to obey my husband as he obeyed God. As he obeyed God. And that was the only thing, because God bless him, my first husband. But he was wild and he was not as into the church as me. And I knew that and I knew the doctrine, and I was a really good Mormon. And he was kind of one of those that was like, oh, all right. Like, she's Marrying that guy. But of course, you know, he was a returned missionary and all the things, well, to do. Family? No, I was 21 by the time we got married. But, yeah, I was kind of like, he's getting me into heaven. Oh, no, no, no, no. I'm getting us into heaven.

John Dehlin [01:38:39] She had a feminist awakening.

Dre Nord [01:38:40] I really did. That was the only thing that was uncomfortable to me. I didn't have a problem with the true order of prayer. I liked it. I liked everything about the temple. The one thing that my still small voice, my higher self, the Holy Ghost, whatever it was, that was like, knock, knock, knock, Dre, this is gonna be a problem for you. And of course, I shut it down. I know he's an amazing priesthood holder. Now that we're married, we're gonna be on the straight and narrow. I've got him. He's gonna do it my way, and we're gonna be okay. But I do remember having that feeling in the temple, and then I kind of felt shame and felt badly for thinking that, because I'm like, oh, my husband's perfect, and da, da, da, and he's gonna get us there. But that was my one kind of, like, precursor.

Heather Gay [01:39:31] And I had had the same exact.

John Dehlin [01:39:33] You did, too.

Heather Gay [01:39:33] Feeling the same exact moment. We both kind of, like, remembered thinking, well, yeah, we're gonna pretend, but, like, you know, we all know that the woman is the neck, and she turns the man of the head whichever direction she wants. Like, I'm gonna have to pretend that he's the one, but it's gonna be me. And it was the same for my mom. It's the same for every. It's like, oh, this is the great lie, you know, that we are pretending to hearken to them, but we're really running the show.

John Dehlin [01:39:59] Was that said. Was that spoken?

Dre Nord [01:40:01] Never.

Heather Gay [01:40:01] No, but it is. I had a phone call with my sister a couple days ago, who's still a very devout Mormon, and without getting into it, she just said, well, we all know, like, I tell men what to do all the time, is what she kind of said. And I'm like, yeah, but you're not actually in charge of them. You realize that we don't hold the priesthood.

Dre Nord [01:40:18] Yes, I was.

Heather Gay [01:40:18] I was in stake Young women's. You're in charge of women. You know, like, not. You don't organize men. You don't lead men. You do not direct men. You're not a Sunday school. You're not anything co Ed.

Dre Nord [01:40:30] But I think how we felt in those moments in the temple was like, but we're above it. Yeah, like, yeah, oh, he's here, he's got the priesthood and duh, duh. But like, we all know that we're the righteous ones.

John Dehlin [01:40:43] Interesting.

Dre Nord [01:40:44] And it is. I had a major superiority issue when I was in the church. It was the worst. But I even felt that in the temple with my own husband, as did, I've got this, I'm getting us to heaven, not him. And as long as he goes along and we do the church the doctrinal way that I was raised to live it, then we're gonna be just fine.

Heather Gay [01:41:09] It's the promise. It's a covenant. We're covenanting for our own happiness. If you're obedient, you will be blessed. If you are not, you have no promise. And we were gonna be obedient.

Dre Nord [01:41:24] Absolutely. And I had no problem doing that. I was good at it and it's all I knew. And I gave up my internship and I went to work and, and supported my husband to do a fake internship

Heather Gay [01:41:41] and play video games.

Dre Nord [01:41:42] And play video games. But I was a child. I was a very, very sheltered, young, dumb 21 year old that knew very, very little about the world.

Heather Gay [01:41:52] And

Dre Nord [01:41:55] in the first two years that I was married to my first husband, there were a couple things that happened. Number one, we were just going along our merry way, being fine, dealing with what normal 21 year old married people deal with. And I got a phone call from my little brother and he was in a panic, very, very upset. He was 14 at the time. And he said, I just found a note from my mom. I found a note from mom and I think she's gonna kill herself. And that shook me because we had the perfect family. Married in the temple, four kids, well to do, living in Alpine. My mom was beautiful, popular, well liked. My dad was successful. And that was news to me of why my mom would even possibly be so unhappy that she would want to end her life. And, and so we luckily, thank heavens, were able to find her. Well, actually some friends and neighbors found her. And when she talked to us about it, after kind of things had settled down, she told us, I just can't be a good Mormon. I'm never going to get to the celestial kingdom. It's never going to happen for me. I keep messing up. All of the things that I am are not good enough. And so it's better for me to just go telestial because if I end it now, at least I'll go to telestial. And that's probably where I belong.

John Dehlin [01:43:31] Tell Listeners, what telestial means.

Dre Nord [01:43:33] So it's the third and lowest kingdom.

John Dehlin [01:43:35] So describe heaven.

Dre Nord [01:43:36] Okay. So heaven is the three kingdoms of glory in Mormonism. In Mormonism, top kingdom is celestial middle. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:43] That's what Heather was talking about.

Heather Gay [01:43:44] That's the goal. That's the place where God resides. It's a revolving globe of glory, glass and fire.

Dre Nord [01:43:48] Yes. And it's the best place. It's where we want to be terrestrial is the middle kingdom. It's like for the so and so goods, I guess. Yeah. The middle ground, good Christian people that didn't join the Mormon Church, that didn't join the.

Heather Gay [01:44:04] That failed to accept the gospel here on earth and then also refused it when they were in spirit prison.

Dre Nord [01:44:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:11] By the way, who's going to be up there with God and refuse it? It's kind of a weird teachings, those hard hearts.

Dre Nord [01:44:18] Right. And then the telestial kingdom is the lowest kingdom, which is still so good that you'd want to kill yourself to go there.

John Dehlin [01:44:27] Yeah. So it's still awesome.

Dre Nord [01:44:28] It's still awesome. It's still immensely better than this world. But it is the lowest.

John Dehlin [01:44:32] You're not with.

Dre Nord [01:44:33] You're not with God, you're not with your family.

John Dehlin [01:44:35] Let's say that again slowly.

Dre Nord [01:44:37] You're not with God and you're not with your family.

John Dehlin [01:44:39] So you don't get to live with God and you're not in a family.

Dre Nord [01:44:42] And I think if you're in celestial, you can visit the people below you, below you, but you can't.

Heather Gay [01:44:46] The elevator goes down, but it doesn't go up. Yeah, it's a one way door.

Dre Nord [01:44:50] Yeah, but my.

Heather Gay [01:44:51] That's what I always told you I'd come visit.

Dre Nord [01:44:53] Dude, I'm outer darkness, so you can't come visit me.

Heather Gay [01:44:55] I will let you into the celestial just for brunch.

John Dehlin [01:44:59] By the way, I don't think they've really thought this through because what if everyone makes the telestial? How are they going to keep everyone apart from each other?

Dre Nord [01:45:06] I mean.

John Dehlin [01:45:06] Right. So I don't think we've really thought that through.

Heather Gay [01:45:08] No, definitely take that back to the drawing board.

John Dehlin [01:45:10] I think like God knows you husband and wife, you're both on the celestial but you stay apart because only in the celestial kingdom can you actually be together.

Dre Nord [01:45:19] Makes no sense, right?

John Dehlin [01:45:20] We don't think that through. Anyway, keep going. So your mom. I don't mean to take this off your mom.

A Mother's Mental Health Crisis and Its Impact

Dre Nord [01:45:24] No, no, not at all. Yeah. So my mom had really just come to the fact that it was better for her to Just end it. Leave her four children and husband with a death by suicide. Mom. And go to the telestial kingdom because there was nothing she could do to get to the celestial kingdom as hard as she tried.

John Dehlin [01:45:44] What was making her feel so inadequate?

Dre Nord [01:45:46] You know, it's funny because I actually talked to her this morning and I was asking her, because, you know, it's been 17 years since that happened, and I said, mom, I want you to go back to when you were standing on that mountain about to jump. What were you thinking? And she said, you know, I was thinking I have no value. Everything I've been taught to do and everything I've been taught to be, I just can't be it. I can't do it. And she said it was actually a Relief Society lesson that the sister in our ward who was teaching it, they were talking about eternal marriage. And she said, you know, if you're unhappy in your marriage now, you just gotta stick it out because you'll be happy on the other side. And quoted Brigham Young in talking about, you know, how basically it'll all work out when you get to the other side. Just stick through it, because eternal marriage can be happy as long as you are following the principles of the gospel. And my mom was in a deeply unhappy marriage, and for her, that was kind of the straw that broke the camel's back. That was the last thing on the shelf, was, okay, I have to face eternity with a person that I'm. That I don't want to be with. And divorce was not an option. And so it would rather be death than to shake the boat. That was the better option for her. And that was really when I started my faith crisis.

John Dehlin [01:47:24] So one quick thing before we jump there, and this is for both of you. What are all the ways that a woman can feel inadequate in Mormonism?

Dre Nord [01:47:34] How can we not?

John Dehlin [01:47:35] No, really. Rifle them off. Rifle them off.

Dre Nord [01:47:37] Okay.

Heather Gay [01:47:39] Body.

Dre Nord [01:47:39] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:47:40] What do you mean not having a great body? Like, small.

Dre Nord [01:47:45] Your outward appearance.

Heather Gay [01:47:46] Yeah. Your physical appearance, your inability to get pregnant, your fertility, your lack of fertility, your inability to bounce back after baby.

John Dehlin [01:47:54] You guys go back and forth.

Heather Gay [01:47:56] Breastfeed. Yeah. Hit a couple.

Dre Nord [01:47:57] Yeah. I think to support your husband, to be successful,

Heather Gay [01:48:03] to be a nurturing, diligent mother with successful, well balanced, righteous children.

Dre Nord [01:48:08] Stay close to your parents at the same time as raising your own children.

Heather Gay [01:48:13] Your home is a temple on earth. You know, the holidays are a time of great rejoicing and joy. And you're a good cook. You're good at. You keep your home. It's A house of order.

Dre Nord [01:48:25] Yep.

Heather Gay [01:48:25] You know.

Dre Nord [01:48:26] Yeah. But then also maintaining like a great social standing, you know, nurturing your friendships and being active in your ward, calling, being known as the person in your ward. That is the go to for, you know, fun parties and for. You're always in a great executive role. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:42] What do you mean?

Heather Gay [01:48:43] You're never a nursery worker. You're either Young Women's president or Young Women's presidency. You're Relief Society president. Relief Society presidency. Your gospel doctrine teacher, which is very rare to be a woman and a

Dre Nord [01:48:54] gospel doctrine teacher, which you were.

Heather Gay [01:48:55] Which I was.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] Wow.

Heather Gay [01:48:57] And you know, I was in. I mean, just all of those things. Your ability to craft, your ability to sew, your ability to cook, your ability to clean, your ability to not only do all these things, but to love doing them and to feel fulfilled doing them. You have to love it and to feel satisfied doing. And to do them with a song in your heart and a smile on your face. And to feel it, to not fake it. Nobody, you know, to feel it and to embrace it. To be a domestic goddess.

Dre Nord [01:49:26] And certainly we're not speaking for all women of the church. This is just Heather's and my experience, which was very, very similar.

John Dehlin [01:49:32] You are speaking for a lot of

Dre Nord [01:49:33] women, I think a lot.

John Dehlin [01:49:34] What about your husband? What about pleasing your husband?

Dre Nord [01:49:36] Oh, well, you have to have. Want to have sex all the time. Be like a total.

John Dehlin [01:49:39] What do you mean by that?

Dre Nord [01:49:40] Like just on the ready and you have to. It's like lady in the streets freakin the sheets. Like you have to angel in the

Heather Gay [01:49:46] kitchen, whore in the bedroom. Yeah. Like I've never. I'm the never say no girl. I would never say to my husband.

John Dehlin [01:49:53] What would you mean by that?

Heather Gay [01:49:54] I would never turn my husband down for sex. It wouldn't matter if he wanted it in a car, in a bar. He didn't. But. And maybe that's why I was the never say no girl. But like I was able to effectively have sex anytime, any place, any condition, even if I had had the flu, you know what I mean? Like, and I mean normally it doesn't coincide, but you know what I mean? I would have, like I used to when I was recent, like newly divorced. I'd say if you want to like a partner, you want a married someone that's been married. Because wives have sex with bad breath, postpartum depression, you know, snot on their faces. Like they can drop down and do it anytime, any place, anywhere. Because that's what I. That was my divine role.

Dre Nord [01:50:42] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:50:42] You know, I would never have said that.

John Dehlin [01:50:45] What was your version of that?

Dre Nord [01:50:46] Same never say no. And if I did say no, there was huge shame. And so then I just didn't say no. Like, that was just the expectation. If we waited all this time. We waited all this time and we were virgins and we, you know, didn't do anything bad. And so now let's open the floodgates. And now this is my reward for being so virtuous.

Heather Gay [01:51:09] And isn't it so much better that we only know it with each other?

Dre Nord [01:51:14] I hated it. It was the worst. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:51:16] Yeah. So, like, what? So I'm sure there are some Mormons who have great sex lives and some Mormons that don't have great sex lives, but for you guys?

Heather Gay [01:51:25] Well, I thought I had a sex life. Cause I had no. I had nothing to compare it to.

John Dehlin [01:51:30] So you were happy? You were fulfilled, filled?

Dre Nord [01:51:32] I. Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:51:34] I mean, yeah, for what I knew in the context of what I knew, you know, if you've. If you've never eaten outside of, you know, a McDonald's. McDonald's. Does it satisfy your hunger? Absolutely. Is it?

Dre Nord [01:51:47] You know, And I wouldn't know for you, Dre. No, it was. Sex was a terrible experience for me. I think I was, like I said, a very young, dumb, inexperienced child. And I had no business going from zero to 60. I was someone that needed years of prep for this. It was too much, and it was scary, and it wasn't fun, and it was shameful for me. And because I felt, like, dumb and like, I didn't know how to do it, and it didn't feel good to me. And then my husband would say, well, you're such a Mormon. And then there was shame around that. Like, oh, I'm just being a Mormon. And to his credit, we were virgins. And I'm sure he was frustrated with me. Like, come on, we waited all this time, and now you're gonna not want to just immediately have sex with me right this second all the time? Because he was a 22 year old boy. Of course that's what he wanted. But for me, I needed some time. It was really tough for me, and it was. I never. I never got it while we were married. It was never easy for me. And there was a lot of shame around it. And also I think there was just shame for me around sex in general, because I just thought it was bad.

John Dehlin [01:53:09] Because you're taught growing up, what, that

Dre Nord [01:53:11] it's the worst sin. Like, worse than murder?

Heather Gay [01:53:14] Yeah. It keeps you out of.

Dre Nord [01:53:15] To have Sex outside of wedlock. And even though we were having sex within the marital boundary, it was really tough for me to shift my thinking. It really was. So that was never.

John Dehlin [01:53:28] So once you, once you're able to have sex, you still feel what?

Dre Nord [01:53:32] Shame. And like it was bad. Yeah, like it was bad. And that it was not okay for me to express myself that way. Even I was never taught how to express that.

John Dehlin [01:53:42] You're not a sexual being as a Mormon. What are you?

Dre Nord [01:53:45] Just holy and perfect and virtuous and creative being.

Heather Gay [01:53:50] You're like a life bearing being, you know?

Dre Nord [01:53:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:54] Any other expectations of Mormon women? We could probably go on all day, but any other important ones.

Heather Gay [01:54:00] I think the hardest thing is to love it, you know, because we can do it all. You know what I mean? Like, we can do the dishes.

Dre Nord [01:54:07] We have babies.

Heather Gay [01:54:09] We can have babies. You know, we can dress them and make sure they're at school on time. But to love it, to love it, because that's where the shame comes in. Like, you know, I love my children. I do not like the menial work surrounding what it takes to keep them alive every day, you know, and that it is 100% solely my responsibility and that it is also a reflection of my character and my worthiness, my ability to sing while I do the dishes, you know, when I really just want to be on my phone, on my bed, you know, and to not love it. And so I would try to find ways to love it. And that's like fitting a square peg in a round hole, you know, because that's where I think we really herald Mormon women. They do it, but they do it with a smile and they are genuine. You know, we recognize, like the doldrums of domestic domesticity. Right? But if you're a true. If you're, you know, if you, if you've got your priorities in the right place, you are devoted to your children and to everything surrounding them. And you're happy. You don't feel annoying, like, oh, did you hear that band of lawyers running wild outside? You know what I mean? Or do you hear those business women clicking in their heels?

Dre Nord [01:55:29] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:55:29] You know, you have date night and you live for. And you live your life and you live for. And you, you know, you live to. I'm losing my lashes. I'm crying so much. You live, you know, with this joy, joy of service, joy of your calling, joy of your husband. And like a lot of times you have to truly detach. Like when I just sat here saying, I never said no, how is that intimacy. I couldn't ever even tell my husband what I was thinking or feeling. The fact that he didn't care what I was feeling is lack of intimacy. And the whole reason you have sex is to be intimate.

Dre Nord [01:56:07] Mm.

Heather Gay [01:56:08] And I used to think that made me such a cool pioneer woman that I never said no. You know why you never said no? Because nobody ever asked you either way. You know what I mean?

Dre Nord [01:56:18] But also, you never say no because you don't want to piss off your husband, and you don't want to have.

Heather Gay [01:56:24] You don't want to have a peg for him to hang his cap on for. Why you, you know, are. Something to say, you know?

Dre Nord [01:56:33] Totally. Yeah. There's a lot of pressure on women in the church to show up a certain way, and my mom's living proof of that. She literally was willing to end her life because she could not live up to the standards, whether self imposed or not, you know, they were what she felt.

John Dehlin [01:56:52] So these were the types of things, pressuring, bearing down on my mom.

Dre Nord [01:56:55] Yes. But then on top of that, you know, she was a sinner. She. And it was. Even the things that she was telling me in the. On the phone today, I was like, these are ridiculous. That she would go to coffee and cocoa in Provo and order a cappuccino mixed with hot chocolate and just tell us it was. It was hot chocolate. But then suffer huge, horrible guilt and then beat herself up about it and. And have to repent and have to. You know, I've broken the word of wisdom. It's such a silly thing, you guys. It's a drink that makes you a little buzzed for 20 minutes.

John Dehlin [01:57:28] What people don't understand is it can keep you from getting married in the temple, which can keep you out of the celestial kingdom.

Dre Nord [01:57:33] Yes.

Heather Gay [01:57:34] There are no small sins. I'm so sick of a lot of people, since I started doing the show, being like, oh, we weren't like that. We drink coffee. My dad drinks coffee all the time, and he still goes to the temple. Yeah. And I'm like, well, then you're not following the doctrine.

John Dehlin [01:57:46] Guess what? That wasn't how we were raised.

Heather Gay [01:57:47] That's not. And that's like, it depends on your bishop. Well, I want to move where you live. That's not a true and guiding principle then.

John Dehlin [01:57:55] I'm 51. I've still never tried alcohol or cigarettes or any type of drug. That's. I have drinks.

Dre Nord [01:58:00] I mean, missing out.

John Dehlin [01:58:02] We got some in the car. No, I know. I'm just saying that's how it's so in me that I still haven't wanted to try those things yet.

Dre Nord [01:58:10] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:58:10] But, I mean, yeah, coffee, tea. I would have never. Like, one time I saw. I was playing basketball with some friends. I saw a little jug of some brown stuff. I thought it was, like, root beer or whatever. It was tea. I was mortified. I spit it out, like, get it

Dre Nord [01:58:26] out of my mouth.

John Dehlin [01:58:28] This is bad. You know, it was just tea. But it's that serious, right?

Temple Garments, Leaving the Church, and Divorce

Dre Nord [01:58:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:32] Yeah. So your mom was drinking coffee?

Dre Nord [01:58:34] So my mom was, like, every once in a while going to coffee and cocoa in Provo. And, you know. But then more than that, it really was the Relief Society lesson of facing eternity, and that was too much for her. And I think when that happened, and there were a lot of other things that were part of that that are private that I can't share. But, like. But I had kind of that come to Jesus moment where I thought, okay, do I really want to be a part of something that would cause the person that I love and respect the most in my life, who I think is the very best human on this earth?

Heather Gay [01:59:13] She was a great mom.

Dre Nord [01:59:14] She was a wonderful moment. And righteous. Really righteous.

John Dehlin [01:59:20] And feeling like dirt.

Dre Nord [01:59:22] Yeah. Is this okay for me to be a part of this? And part of my mom's therapy after the suicide attempt was exploring outside of the church. Her therapist just said, gosh, well, maybe the answer is to not worry so much about being a good Mormon. Maybe you can just be a good person and let's start there and.

Heather Gay [01:59:45] But the best people are Mormon. That's what would always get me back.

Dre Nord [01:59:49] I know.

John Dehlin [01:59:50] What do you mean, Heather?

Heather Gay [01:59:51] Just like, how can I be a good person if I'm betraying my faith?

Dre Nord [01:59:54] It's still a lower level. Yeah, it's still.

Heather Gay [01:59:56] But, like, wouldn't the best person just live, you know, and succeed under these principles?

Dre Nord [02:00:04] But that's the thing, is that my mom was the best person. And that's what shook me, is I was like, whoa, if this person isn't good enough, I'm screwed. Because she's amazing and she tries. And isn't that what it's about is trying? And it still wasn't good enough. This is a person who has so much value that feels that she has no value. How can this be good? And I think that in her therapy, it was. Okay. Okay, let's take Mormon off the list. We're not even gonna deal with that right now.

John Dehlin [02:00:39] We're a therapist in Utah.

Heather Gay [02:00:41] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:00:41] It was really. It was a blessing for sure. And Saved her life, truly. And so let's not worry about being a Mormon. Let's worry about being a good person. And let's start there. And as. And I remember she came out to Virginia to visit my husband and I. We were living out there and she wasn't wearing her garments.

John Dehlin [02:01:01] Tell people what garments are.

Dre Nord [02:01:02] So garments are the sacred underwear that Mormons wear when they receive their endowment. And it's, you know, protects you. And it's a reminder, an outward reminder of our inward feelings.

John Dehlin [02:01:14] Are they sexy?

Dre Nord [02:01:15] Oh, no, no, no, no, no.

Heather Gay [02:01:17] Burdensome.

Dre Nord [02:01:19] Yeah. So they are like a cap sleeve top with. And some of them have a scoop neck. So you can get away with wearing like a V neck or something a little sexier. And a cap sleeve. So no tank tops. And then kind of like a biker short.

Heather Gay [02:01:33] To your knees.

Dre Nord [02:01:34] Yeah, to your knees. I would always get the extra small.

Heather Gay [02:01:36] Yeah. I mean, there's ways around it, but it is supposed to be like the symbol is at your knee.

John Dehlin [02:01:41] So what about miniskirts?

Dre Nord [02:01:42] Oh, no, those are not happening for short shorts. No.

Heather Gay [02:01:44] Women find ways to get around it, but they'd rather wear garments inappropriately and be wearing them than.

John Dehlin [02:01:51] So what's the workaround?

Heather Gay [02:01:52] The workaround is you buy three or four size smaller and you also buy petite. Cause it's cut shorter from the waist to the crotch, so you can hike them up.

Dre Nord [02:01:58] But I, like, now a lot of, like, a lot of people will just optionally wear garments.

Heather Gay [02:02:04] Garment optional is like a new thing.

Dre Nord [02:02:06] Yeah. And like, like, oh, I'm wearing these, this outfit for my, for my blog post or for my Instagram picture.

Heather Gay [02:02:11] This is my job. And if I were a swimmer, I wouldn't be wearing garments when I swim. And my job is to model clothing. So I don't wear garments for this picture, but I wear them when it matters.

Dre Nord [02:02:19] Right. But that was not the kind of Mormon I would get the extra smalls. I'm not gonna lie that I would do that. But I would never wear a tank top. I would never wear shirts. I would never say, like, oh, these are the shorts that I'm gonna wear today with regular underwear. I didn't own regular underwear. I just wear my garments.

Heather Gay [02:02:33] Yeah, I still barely own regular underwear.

Dre Nord [02:02:37] I know, I'm so sorry. But like, but my mom, when she showed up, did she wore garments?

Heather Gay [02:02:43] No.

John Dehlin [02:02:43] Okay. Okay.

Dre Nord [02:02:44] But it's like a new, like bare. Like it's weird to me.

Heather Gay [02:02:47] Yeah. Like I, I have my daughter's underwear. Like, I can't. Like, I don't. Like, like I Don't think I could, like.

Dre Nord [02:02:54] I don't know. You're not fully committed to not.

John Dehlin [02:02:57] It's hard. It took me years.

Heather Gay [02:02:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:00] It's like 10 years before I started. Stopped wearing garments. After I stopped believing. It's like, 10 years.

Heather Gay [02:03:04] I mean, it's just. Yeah, it's.

John Dehlin [02:03:07] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:03:07] Yeah. But, yeah, the garments thing was weird, and it was very triggering for me to see my mom. I noticed she raised her arms to do something, and she. I could see that she wasn't wearing garments.

John Dehlin [02:03:18] What does that mean to you when a devout Mormon mom is not wearing her garments? What does that mean?

Dre Nord [02:03:23] Oh, I was like, something's wrong. Something's wrong. Something's going on with Mom. And I knew she had already, like, tried to kill herself. And I was like, what is happening? This my world. I threw up. I, like, ran to the bathroom. I was so upset. I got myself so worked up that I threw up.

John Dehlin [02:03:41] Because of her underwear.

Dre Nord [02:03:42] Because of my mom's underwear. That is crazy, first of all. But, like, that's how deep I was in it. And I got really upset with her and, like, actually yelled at her. I remember sitting in my kitchen, in my apartment and saying, mom, what makes you so special that you don't have to wear your garments? And she said, dre, what makes you so special that you get to wear your garments and be so much better than me? Are you better than me?

John Dehlin [02:04:11] Oh. And I was like, this is after she had attempted.

Dre Nord [02:04:15] Yeah. And I was. And again, I had to check myself, say, gosh, do I really want to be a part of something that. That is telling me that my very favorite person in the world, who I'm obsessed with and want to be like, now she not only wanted to kill herself, but now I think I'm better than her. Do I really, really want to be a part of that? And so that happened. I ended up moving home because then my parents decided to divorce because my mom was leaving the church.

John Dehlin [02:04:47] Is that why your dad's like, I'm

Dre Nord [02:04:50] not gonna do that? Yeah. And she. Yeah, she gave him the. You know, she said, I'm going to leave the Mormon Church. We can stay married.

John Dehlin [02:04:57] To save her life.

Dre Nord [02:04:58] To save her life. It was not healthy for her at all. And he wanted to stay in the church. And so they decided to divorce. And I moved home to help with the divorce because, you know, I was an adult, and I was also pregnant with my oldest daughter, and I was studying in school. Well, I don't even know if I was going to school at the time. I think I was fake going to school. Like, I liked to think I was going to school, but it was like, as soon as. After I have this baby, then. And after John gets his degree, then I'll go back. I'll go back. But I always had a passion for Middle Eastern culture. I grew up, like I said, in a predominantly Arab and Persian area. I love D.C. i always thought we'd go back to D.C. did you know

John Dehlin [02:05:45] Omar Cater and Nancy Cater?

Dre Nord [02:05:47] No.

John Dehlin [02:05:48] Okay.

Heather Gay [02:05:48] We're at.

John Dehlin [02:05:49] There's. There's a Mormon Stories episode that's one of my favorites.

Dre Nord [02:05:52] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [02:05:52] Omar Cater, like, was born in the West Bank.

Dre Nord [02:05:54] Oh.

John Dehlin [02:05:55] But moved to Provo. So he. Or. Or his dad was born in the West Bank. And so this is like an Arab family growing up in Provo, Utah.

Heather Gay [02:06:01] Wow.

John Dehlin [02:06:02] And he went back and became, like, a big wig. He knew Yasser Arafat. Like, okay, so he was a Palestinian. He married a white Mormon woman. He was a professor at byu. Then they kicked him out. Like, it's a great. Omar Kader and Nancy Kader. Great episode. He was a D.C. arab Mormon.

Dre Nord [02:06:18] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:06:18] So I just thought you might have heard of him.

Dre Nord [02:06:20] I mean. Yeah, I was. I'm surprised that I haven't. Yeah, a little bit. But anyway, I. I was. That's what I wanted to do with my life. I wanted to study ancient texts. I wanted to study, you know, every. I loved everything.

Heather Gay [02:06:37] Book of Abraham. You'll be fine.

Dre Nord [02:06:39] But dude, I did, though, that was my favorite book, Book of Abraham.

John Dehlin [02:06:43] Tell our listeners what that is.

Dre Nord [02:06:44] So it is the first book in the Pearl of Great Price.

John Dehlin [02:06:48] It's what? For Mormons.

Dre Nord [02:06:49] So it's a separate little part of the canon. Yeah. Of the triple combo of the Book of Mormon. Oh, it's not that.

John Dehlin [02:06:59] Doctrine and Covenants.

Dre Nord [02:06:59] Doctrine and Covenants.

Heather Gay [02:07:00] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:07:00] And Pearl of Great Price. And the Pearl of Great Price was found. Well, so Joseph Smith found these scrolls and he translated them.

John Dehlin [02:07:09] Mummy scrolls.

Dre Nord [02:07:09] Mummy scrolls. Yeah. It was on a traveling bandwagon kind of wagon show of, you know, Egyptian artifacts, which was so popular during those times. And at the time, actually, the Egyptian hieroglyphic code had never. The Rosetta Stone hadn't been found, and the code had not been cracked. So nobody could actually translate Egyptian hieroglyphics at the time. So when Joseph Smith got ahold of them, he was like, I know exactly what this is. I'm going to translate it. And this is what it is. It's the Book of Abraham, the Book of Moses. What else is that? It just those two yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:42] And because that was Joseph's big thing is that part of how he got his reputation was that he was a seer, that he could look into the stone and translate ancient languages.

Dre Nord [02:07:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:07:54] And that's what he did with the Book of Mormon. He got these golden plates that had reformed Egyptian and he had the power to see into the stone in the hat and then to translate the Book of Mormon and now he's got these papyrus.

Heather Gay [02:08:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:06] And he's gonna do the same thing with them.

Dre Nord [02:08:07] Yes. And so that's why it was my. I actually loved it even more than the Book of Mormon. Even though I loved the Book of Mormon, I loved the Book of Abraham because it talks specifically about the discovery of Egypt, which I was, you know, so in love with Egypt. And it was, you know, the daughter of Ham, Egyptus. And that was named after, you know, Egypt was named after Egyptus. And it was my favorite story in the scriptures. And I know it was rough, but I loved the ancient texts. But I loved all ancient texts. But specifically I did love the Book of Abraham because it spoke to me and because it was part of my belief.

John Dehlin [02:08:43] And the teachings too, in it.

Dre Nord [02:08:44] Yeah, the teachings as well.

Heather Gay [02:08:45] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:08:47] But I really just loved the history of it. And so of all of the ancient texts, that was my favorite. But I loved all of them. I did not, you know, I liked all of them. So I remember I was sitting in my bedroom and I was studying an ancient Egyptian te. I had gone over to the Barnes and Noble by BYU off of university and somebody had recommended some books if I was going to be preparing to go into an Egyptian program at byu. And he had recommended these books. And so I was looking through and I was studying them and I recognized some pages and I was reading them and I'm like, okay, where have I seen this before? And it's these funerary prayers and talking about the death rituals and all of this. And I was like, where have I. I've read this before. And it dawned on me and I was like, oh my gosh, I know what this is. This is exactly the same.

John Dehlin [02:09:44] Like, were they the facsimiles?

Dre Nord [02:09:45] Yeah, this is the facsimiles.

John Dehlin [02:09:48] Egyptian hieroglyphs that are in the Book of Abraham.

Dre Nord [02:09:51] Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:09:51] Look like primitive drawings or like cave drawings really, that are actual images in the Pearl of great Price in the Book of Mormon.

Dre Nord [02:09:58] And it's. They're just like, yeah, copies of what the scrolls said and. But they're all in hieroglyphics. And I was very confused because the book that I was reading was telling me that this was funerary prayers. And I was like, this is wrong. They. Someone got this wrong.

Heather Gay [02:10:17] That the pearl Great Price was wrong. It was like, this is wrong.

Dre Nord [02:10:19] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [02:10:20] Instead of being like God and Jesus and whoever. Abraham or Moses or whatever, it's like Anubis and. And Isis. Wait a minute. They got this wrong. Those Egyptologists translated the papyrus rocks.

Dre Nord [02:10:32] I really did.

Heather Gay [02:10:33] Someone needs to show them the Pearl of Great price.

Dre Nord [02:10:36] No, I was upset because I was like, they can't be publishing this. How are they teaching this in school? And this is wrong. And I went and got my Pearl of Great Price, and I opened it up, and sure enough. Sure enough. And I was like, well, I. You know, I'm gonna debunk this, Dre Robinson. I am going to. I just gotta let these Egyptologists know they've got it all wrong. And that truly sent me down the rabbit hole. Because then I started doing some research, and I learned about the Rosetta Stone. I knew about the Rosetta Stone, but I learned about the timeline of the Rosetta Stone and how that coincided with Joseph Smith's translation of the Pearl of Great Price. And then I, you know, read. There was no CS letter at the time, but I read the. And that was.

The Book of Mormon and Loss of Faith

John Dehlin [02:11:25] Which said what?

Dre Nord [02:11:25] Which said. Because I guess there was a rumor, like, in the 80s or something that, like, the Smithsonian was using the Book of Mormon and, like, church documents to try to, like, find historical sites in Central America. Yeah. And so Smithsonian came out and said, absolutely not. That's not what we're doing. And these are the reasons why. And it was a little. Kind of like a bit of a CES letter, junior that kind of pointed out the reasons why they would never use the Book of Mormon and why. Why it was historically inaccurate. And it was very upsetting to me because not only.

John Dehlin [02:12:02] And how old are you? How old are you?

Dre Nord [02:12:04] So I was pregnant. So I was 22.

John Dehlin [02:12:06] Okay.

Dre Nord [02:12:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:07] What year was that?

Dre Nord [02:12:08] 2002.

John Dehlin [02:12:09] Okay.

Dre Nord [02:12:10] And it was devastating to me. I was, first of all, wrong. And I was not used to being wrong. I was always right, and I was tricked, and I had. I mean, I even. I cringe when I even look at my Book of Abraham. It's highlighted and noted and every footnote and researched. And I thought, oh, my God. I. All of this time. All of this time that I've been doing this, and it's not even real, and I felt so dumb. And smart girls don't like to feel dumb. And I felt really dumb. And tricked and lied to. And I was disappointed in myself because I sh.

John Dehlin [02:13:03] What'd you conclude that led to the disappointment? You were dumb. Why?

Dre Nord [02:13:07] Oh, because I didn't realize that it wasn't real.

Heather Gay [02:13:10] Like Joseph Smith made it up.

Dre Nord [02:13:12] That it was made up. Yeah, that there was no historical basis that ever would prove that the Book of Mormon would be true.

John Dehlin [02:13:20] So your Book of Abraham stuff bled

Dre Nord [02:13:21] into the Book of Mormon? Yeah, it was all of it, all at once. And so my whole entire world came crashing down.

John Dehlin [02:13:26] Can I. Can I just quickly say why you weren't dumb? So.

Dre Nord [02:13:29] Yes, please, please, please.

John Dehlin [02:13:32] So I, John de Lynn, lost my faith in 2001. Right. I was 31 years old, and I'd been in the church all my life. Now, this was. The Internet had been created, but there was no Mormon Stories podcast. There was no CES letter, There was no Mormon Think website. There was none of this stuff. None of these. No Year of polygamy, no John de Lynn, no K. Kelly, none of that stuff. Right. And the only way you can learn about this stuff is in, like, certain books that you would never have heard of normally and that were totally forbidden if you had. Or like, through Sunstone or Dialogue magazine, which by then the church had denounced.

Dre Nord [02:14:08] Yeah, I was not Sunstone at all. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:10] And so for you to. For you to go through this in your early 20s, right. In 2002, ish is a really big deal, because there are people just now in their 60s and 70s figuring this out, but you figured it out in your early 20s before the Internet. The Mormon Internet really exploded. And I'm just going to say that's rare. That's rare. And that's actually commendable. I'm not trying to just blame blow sunshine up your shirt, but that is. That's remarkable.

Dre Nord [02:14:42] No, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:14:43] And it takes courage to be will. And I think probably your mom having that experience and leaving the church maybe cracked you open and made you open to that. But many, many, many, many people like you, Heather, on your mission, you. You. There's a moment in time where you're like, wait a minute, is it even possible that this isn't true? And most Mormons are like, like, wait a minute, rewind. There's no way. It's not true. I'm going back on plan. It's a rare Mormon that can go. I'm actually going to keep pulling this thread and see what unravels, because the stakes are so incredibly high. You. And you didn't have to worry about losing the love of your mother, but you probably had to worry about what your dad was going to think. And then there's all your whole community, extended family, friends. It's a big, big deal. So it is commendable that you were willing to keep pulling that thread.

Dre Nord [02:15:35] Oh, thank you. And I certainly don't mean to disrespect.

John Dehlin [02:15:38] Disrespect other people. No, I was 31.

Dre Nord [02:15:41] Like, you know, no, but that. But me as who I was at the time, I've. I felt deeply betrayed by my. Myself, but also by my parents and. And especially my dad because, like, my dad's so smart. Smart, and he. He's so well educated, and I just didn't understand how he couldn't have caught this and why didn't he figure it out first and.

John Dehlin [02:16:10] Because it's not an intelligence thing. Let me just be clear. No, it's not an intelligence thing. And I. I don't even mean to frame it as courage. You have to have the right life circumstances happen at the right time with the right availability of information or the right influences in your life. And if all those things line up. But there are brilliant people that never figure this out. They go to their death, and they're brilliant. Like, literally brilliant. They didn't have the right people come into their lives or the right things happen with their parents. And sometimes it's just luck as well. So I don't mean to, like, belittle anyone who figures it out later or still hasn't figured it out, you know, because that would be us. Heather. Took us longer. Right. But. But. And not that. There's one thing to figure out, because everybody's gonna arrive at a different place. But, but. But you forge. I don't know if you feel fortunately. But you had the right circumstances.

Dre Nord [02:17:00] I did.

John Dehlin [02:17:00] That kind of made. Made you open.

Dre Nord [02:17:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:02] Where others might not have been.

Heather Gay [02:17:03] It's interesting to me, like, the context that both of you are discussing, and because I thinking, like, you used the word luck and you were like. You discovered this. Like, Ben, were you. Did you regret discovering it? Did you ever think, I want to not discover this and, like, shut it and pretend I didn't hear. It's like when you pick up the phone and your mom's talking to another man. Hang it up, pretend you never heard it, Go back to the bit of, you know, blissful state of contentment that you were existing in before you saw those funerary.

Dre Nord [02:17:31] Well, I think that that's. I mean, exactly what is the right time, right circumstances? Because I think had my. I not already been questioning I think I probably would have just been like. Like, don't go there. Just like I did in the temple. Figure out a way to talk yourself out of it. Or, you know. And even when I discussed it with my dad, you know, he just said, dre, I just have to trust. I have faith. God will work it out. I know it doesn't make sense. I know it doesn't make sense. And you can give me all of your evidence, and I'm still going to believe that Joseph Smith translated that. And I don't know how. I don't know why. It's. Why hieroglyphics show that it's funerary prayers. I don't know why. And it doesn't matter.

Heather Gay [02:18:18] It doesn't matter.

Dre Nord [02:18:18] But to me, it mattered. And I think it mattered because I was already having that cognitive dissonance of, is this really who I am? Is this really what wasn't working for you? No. No. But I do think that because I went down that rabbit hole, gosh, it shook me, and it shook me fast. And I was out immediately.

John Dehlin [02:18:43] While married.

Dre Nord [02:18:44] While married.

John Dehlin [02:18:45] How's husband taking this?

Dre Nord [02:18:47] So he was like. I was like. I told him what I had found, and I said, I don't think I can be in the church anymore. And he said, okay, that's fast. Yeah, he was.

John Dehlin [02:18:56] So he wasn't as devout.

Dre Nord [02:18:57] He was not, no. He was doing it for me. And we ended up getting divorced. You know, I think. I think because we got married so young.

Heather Gay [02:19:06] I know why you got divorced. Stopped living the principles of the gospel.

Dre Nord [02:19:10] But, you know, we were each other's first boyfriend and girlfriend, and we knew nothing about life. And here we were, you know, 23 and 24 years old, and we had this baby. And now everything that our whole marriage was built on, we didn't believe anymore. And it didn't take long for us to realize that we. The kind of people that we wanted to be outside of the church, were very different than, like, what would work for us. Like, he wanted to be a different ex Mormon than what I wanted to be. And it just, you know, it. It wasn't right for us. We were far too young to be married in the first place, and so we. We both left the church together. I'm really grateful we did, because it would have been. Been immensely harder to do that alone. But once we were out of the church, our time was done together, and so we did divorce. And then I got to have the fun experience of not only being an ex Mormon divorced person, but also a Single mom.

John Dehlin [02:20:18] When you say fun, do you mean it or not mean it?

Dre Nord [02:20:20] No, it was. You know what? In retrospect, there were a lot of really fun things.

John Dehlin [02:20:23] What was hard? Hard or unpleasant or whatever.

Dre Nord [02:20:26] Disappointing my family. Yeah. And, like, losing all my friends. And why? Just because we weren't in the same group anymore.

John Dehlin [02:20:36] Because you left the church, not because you got divorced.

Dre Nord [02:20:38] It was all of it. It was all of it. Because then, like, what? When we were married, we hung out with other married couples in our ward, and those were our friends. And then we leave the church, we're not going to the ward anymore. And then. And now we. We're divorced. So now I'm single.

John Dehlin [02:20:53] Your friends. Oftentimes couples don't want to hang out with singles.

Heather Gay [02:20:55] No, all the time, John. They don't want to hang out singles.

John Dehlin [02:20:58] Yeah, you come hang out with me and Margi anytime.

Dre Nord [02:21:03] But it was. Yeah, it was rough and it was tough to navigate and. But the. I'm gonna be totally honest, the hardest thing was the family. Disappointing the family and.

John Dehlin [02:21:17] Meaning your mom or your.

Dre Nord [02:21:18] No, not my mom, because my mom had left. But my dad.

John Dehlin [02:21:20] Yeah. About the church.

Dre Nord [02:21:22] About the church and the divorce.

John Dehlin [02:21:24] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:21:24] I was really scared to tell my dad that not only had I left the church, but also a few months later, sorry, dad. Getting divorced now.

John Dehlin [02:21:33] You know what's hard is everybody's like, oh, of course you leave the church, you're going to get divorced. It's like. But you could. They could be totally separate things. You can leave the church because it's not true, and then get divorced because you realize you maybe never should have been married in the first place or got married way too young. But then Mormons just make that connection where it's just like, oh, yeah, you stop living the gospel, your marriage isn't gonna last. So you. It's your fault because you did live the gospel, right?

Dre Nord [02:21:57] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:21:59] Does that resonate with you?

Heather Gay [02:22:00] Yeah, absolutely. You know what came first? The chicken or the egg? You know, like, you just. You can't even decipher because. And also, you can't be really happy. You can be caught up in the things of the world, but this isn't real happiness because you're not living the gospel. So whatever fog the devil's put over your brain that makes you think you're content and happy and not suicidal anymore, that's ephemeral. It's going to fade. Because the foundation for happiness in this life is based upon the principles of the gospel and living them, you know, that's like, that's like the circular logic that I can't get out of.

Dre Nord [02:22:31] Yeah. And it's, dude, it's tough to get out of that circular logic. And I, I, yeah, I remember thinking the same thing and, and having to start over. That's the biggest thing is like, if that's your whole identity, then it's like, well, then who actually am I? But I think that that's what was so beautiful about the whole experience is that like, I got to invent that. And yes, it was on incredibly different terms. I knew I wanted to get my education that. Why didn't I do that before?

Heather Gay [02:23:02] I didn't.

Dre Nord [02:23:03] Because culturally that was not part of my plan.

Heather Gay [02:23:06] No one encouraged it.

Dre Nord [02:23:07] No one encouraged it.

Heather Gay [02:23:08] Like, I got it because nobody married me.

Dre Nord [02:23:11] Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:23:12] I was just plodding along, you know, aimlessly.

Dre Nord [02:23:15] Really well, and for me, like, yeah, I did the Mrs. Track, you know, I got married and had a baby and that's what I was doing. But once I left the church, I was like, okay, yes, I'm in a different situation than I had hoped. I'm a single mother now with no education and pretty much no life skills and very little self worth.

John Dehlin [02:23:40] In Utah.

Dre Nord [02:23:41] In Utah. So what am I going to do with that? And I'm pretty proud of what I did with it.

John Dehlin [02:23:49] What'd you do?

Dre Nord [02:23:50] So, so glad you asked. So I did go back to school. I went to the U. I studied Arabic and Middle Eastern studies. Yes, again, I always thought I would end up back on the east coast and I did not. But I got my degree and it took me a freaking long time because I was.

John Dehlin [02:24:10] How long did it take?

Dre Nord [02:24:11] It took me like six years.

John Dehlin [02:24:13] That's awesome.

Dre Nord [02:24:14] Yeah. But I was waiting tables in Park City and a single mom dad was out of the picture and so I was doing it by myself and. And dad, I'm meeting my ex, my first husband, my daughter's dad, and he was doing his own thing. And so I handled being the mom and I. But I did it and I did school and.

John Dehlin [02:24:39] Okay, how do you. And I'm making an assumption here. How do you date, go to school and be a single mom?

Dre Nord [02:24:45] I mean, that's why it took six years, but.

John Dehlin [02:24:48] And work and you're working.

Dre Nord [02:24:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:50] Were you doing all four things?

Dre Nord [02:24:51] Huh?

Life After Mormonism: Single Parenting and Dating

John Dehlin [02:24:52] Okay, let's just get this clear. Going to school, working, being a single mom, and maybe dating. Were you dating?

Dre Nord [02:24:59] Yeah, Yeah, I was dating.

John Dehlin [02:25:00] And I was a fun. Was it scary?

Dre Nord [02:25:02] It was so fun because I had

John Dehlin [02:25:04] never done that, like having sex with different People.

Dre Nord [02:25:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:08] Can you do that?

Dre Nord [02:25:09] I mean, was that hard?

John Dehlin [02:25:10] Was it scary to figure that out? Because we're not taught. I still don't know. Like, I've had sex with one woman my entire life.

Dre Nord [02:25:16] Life.

John Dehlin [02:25:16] One woman. I wouldn't know what to do in debate.

Dre Nord [02:25:19] Like, it was, it was how to talk about that.

Heather Gay [02:25:20] It's kind of like riding a bike, Johnny, if you figure it out.

John Dehlin [02:25:23] No, no, I mean like talking about protection, talking about like being an adult, about talking about STIs, like different partners. Like, I don't, you know, that's just like, you don't know any of that stuff. No.

Heather Gay [02:25:34] And that's why the, it's a debaucherous world too. The divorcee is dating. They don't. You know, no one has an adult relationship with sex at all.

Dre Nord [02:25:41] No. And it's, I was even telling Heather the other day, this is one of my biggest beefs with the church, is that like, I was never taught anything about sex. Nothing. And so I had to learn that on my own. That could have been so dangerous for me. I am very shocked that I was not assaulted. Well, actually, guess what? I was assaulted on a date one time and it was awful. But see, I don't even consider that. I don't even consider it. But like, I didn't know anything and so I didn't know how to protect myself. I had to learn by being in it.

John Dehlin [02:26:15] And was it awesome or awful or both?

Dre Nord [02:26:17] Both. I'm so grateful for it. But like, I hope that my daughter, of course I don't like she's in high school. I don't want her having sex.

John Dehlin [02:26:24] Okay, wait, wait. So Mormon, Mormonism teaches wickedness never was happiness. And you were taught that having sex outside of wedlock was, was next to murder?

Heather Gay [02:26:35] Yeah, it's not wickedness, it's next to murder.

John Dehlin [02:26:37] So, so you were. How did you get comfortable with that? Knowing that you were doing, you know, that your past self would say you're being evil?

Dre Nord [02:26:45] You know, I had let go of the religion though, I, by that point and see, I, I couldn't have been one that believed and, and then acted out, I, I, that I would have had way too much guilt and shame. Yeah, I just could not. But I would have just hated myself. But I think once I let go of the religion and I definitely like went on a little bit of a spiritual journey and I needed that. I don't even know where I stand now as, you know, 40 year old me, but when I first left the church, I did kind of Supplement with, like, okay, I'm gonna be really spiritual now. I'm gonna pray all the time, and I'm gonna be into astrology and I'm going to, you know, still believe in God and all of these things. It's just not gonna be within the context of the church. And so I did have some foundations to like, ground on with that. But I also found and. And considered my own sexual freedom as being very healing.

John Dehlin [02:27:41] Was it good?

Dre Nord [02:27:42] It was great.

John Dehlin [02:27:42] It was healing.

Dre Nord [02:27:43] Yeah, it was. Once I kind of got my footing.

John Dehlin [02:27:46] How can wickedness be healing?

Dre Nord [02:27:48] Because guess what? We are human beings.

John Dehlin [02:27:50] What's healing about having multiple sexual experiences?

Dre Nord [02:27:53] Well, because I realized that it wasn't bad and that it could actually be fun and that I was actually a sexual person.

John Dehlin [02:28:01] Meaning what?

Dre Nord [02:28:02] Like, that I could enjoy sex and not feel shame.

John Dehlin [02:28:05] Right.

Dre Nord [02:28:05] And let loose.

John Dehlin [02:28:06] Right, yeah. Creative and spontaneous.

Dre Nord [02:28:08] Exactly. And. And that I could share something with someone that I was getting to know. I never, like, I wasn't into one night stands or anything like that, but if I had a boyfriend, it would go there. And it was actually really amazing and brought me connection and made me feel closer to that person. And to recognize that, like, this could be such a positive experience outside of the bounds of marriage and be enriching and not the worst thing in the world was so freeing. And I hope that my daughter does not. I hope that she gets to have some sexual experiences when the time is right before marriage, before she gets married.

John Dehlin [02:28:51] Isn't that interesting?

Dre Nord [02:28:52] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:28:53] So un Mormon, right? To say that.

Dre Nord [02:28:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:56] Super taboo.

Dre Nord [02:28:57] But for me, if I would have had sex one time with my first husband, I would have been like, before we got married, I would have been like, oh, that's a no from me, dog. Like, this is not gonna work because it's just incompatibility.

John Dehlin [02:29:09] Nothing about him.

Dre Nord [02:29:10] Absolutely. It was not my thing with him. And so I think it's a huge disservice that the church does to women by not encouraging us to be sexual with the right and appropriate boundaries and timing, in the right age, at the right maturity level, with the right person, all of those things. But I think it's a huge disservice that the church does to women by encouraging the besties.

Heather Gay [02:29:36] Much bigger than a disservice because we're taught that, like, something that we're not

John Dehlin [02:29:40] a little bit closer to you.

Heather Gay [02:29:41] Sorry, we're taught that something that we're not in charge of is what our intrinsic value is based on.

Dre Nord [02:29:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:29:47] What do you mean you're not in charge of it.

Heather Gay [02:29:49] Well, it's when you are a woman and you're a virgin, you surrender your chastity. You know, you are. You give it up, right? You put out like you're asking for it, like, all the terms. And that is us surrendering. Like, our power. And our value is based on our abilities to submit. You know, it's not even proactive. It's recessive. And we are not empowered with it because once we've given it up, then we're taught we've lost our power. And so that's pretty dangerous position to put our daughters in to say, hold this sacred. Because all of your worth, both to God and to your community and to this family, are based on your ability to toe the line and not have sex. And then the second you do have sex, you are used up, you are damaged, you are blighted. We're taking away your title of virgin.

John Dehlin [02:30:53] Chewed gum.

Heather Gay [02:30:54] Your chewed gum. Your elector, Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. And you'll be. And you have lost the thing that made you the most powerful.

John Dehlin [02:31:04] And it's like Samson cutting his hair, right?

Dre Nord [02:31:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:07] Lost your power.

Heather Gay [02:31:08] And now we're going to put you in a submissive relationship where you're going to have to fend for yourself. And the one leverage you had, you lost it, you know?

Dre Nord [02:31:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:19] Your virtue.

Heather Gay [02:31:19] Go with God, little girl.

Dre Nord [02:31:23] Yeah, I know. We only have like 20 more minutes.

John Dehlin [02:31:30] No, no, no. So while I was thinking is we. We could. Like you said, maybe we could do a part two. Is that okay?

Heather Gay [02:31:36] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:31:36] You guys can come back.

Dre Nord [02:31:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:38] Does that work for.

Dre Nord [02:31:38] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [02:31:39] Okay, so let's talk. Let's talk. Just. Do you. Is there anything else you want to share? Just about, like, navigating life as a single mom before you meet Heather. Anything else? Took your name off the rolls before you meet Heather.

Heather Gay [02:31:53] That's pretty significant. I.

Dre Nord [02:31:55] Me and my ex husband took our names off the records.

John Dehlin [02:31:57] But that's big early and big really early.

Dre Nord [02:32:00] Like at 20. How'd you make it was him.

John Dehlin [02:32:02] What'd he say?

Dre Nord [02:32:03] He was just like, I don't want to be a part of this anymore. Let's take our records off.

John Dehlin [02:32:07] Okay.

Heather Gay [02:32:07] Did that scare you at all?

Dre Nord [02:32:10] When I got the letter, yes.

John Dehlin [02:32:11] What does it say? What does the letter say?

Dre Nord [02:32:13] It was like, made me sign that I'm okay to be in outer darkness, essentially.

John Dehlin [02:32:17] It basically says you've lost all your privileges and rights and you're signing away that position in the celestial kingdom. And as long as you just understand that, sign it away.

Heather Gay [02:32:26] You know, What I'm saying, you sign with blood. You prick your finger and sign with blood.

John Dehlin [02:32:28] No.

Heather Gay [02:32:29] Does it have pictures of like Johnny Cochran and Jeffrey Dahmer? It had a picture of the Mormon musical a few times. Yes, absolutely.

Dre Nord [02:32:38] No, it had a picture of the Savior and you know, the bluish. The bluish purpley one. The bluish purple, you know, that's really beautiful.

Heather Gay [02:32:46] The handsome.

Dre Nord [02:32:47] The handsome one. Yeah, it had that and non Arabic, but. And I don't think I would have done it if he hadn't. I know I wouldn't have.

John Dehlin [02:32:54] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:32:55] And because I was, I. I wasn't afraid of going to outer darkness, but I was afraid of disappointing my dad.

Heather Gay [02:33:01] Yeah.

Dre Nord [02:33:01] That's the truth.

Heather Gay [02:33:02] Yeah. So, yeah, it's not about like that my name on a roll is going to keep me from eternal damnation. It's. I don't want to be in that bucket because I don't know anyone in that bucket except for like Jeffrey Dahmer and Hitler and Johnnie Cochran.

John Dehlin [02:33:20] John De Lynn.

Heather Gay [02:33:21] And John de Lynn. Yeah. And like when I, like when she told me the story of, you know, she said. And then he got a letter from the church and I was like, you know, like, I literally, like, I have like a clutch my pearls moment every time. Cause I'm like, like, you know, that's big.

Dre Nord [02:33:39] That's big.

Heather Gay [02:33:39] It almost kept me from doing anything, you know, with the show and with everything. Because I don't, I don't. I must have hold some belief. Yeah. Oh, but it's really to be eradicated from what created you. You know, this has like, informed every choice in my life and I don't want to negate my mission, my friends, my community, all the service I rendered as a member of the church. I saw your post about like, thank you, you know, for teaching my kids and like sacrificing your youth, you know, and doing all these things. Thank you for doing that. It's like everything you've done to this point is now null and void because you didn't make it to the end. And I didn't want to give up. And also I didn't have a future. So I was just like, well, all I have are all the accolades of being a great Mormon to this point and then this bleak future, you know, and it's like. And I'm going to lose both of them in the end.

Dre Nord [02:34:38] But I think that that's why it's so important what we're doing in the ex Mormon community of like, I can't

Heather Gay [02:34:44] say I'm an Ex Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:34:45] No, you don't have to.

Dre Nord [02:34:45] I know I say we as in me and John, me and Dre is. You know, a lot of us are quick to jump to anger and to just rejection of what we grew up with. That's what I did. I was really deeply angry and, like I said, wanted to crusade for everyone to leave the church. And it wasn't until I could work through some of those feelings and take a softer stance. And even today, talking to my mom, she. I was asking her one of the hardest things about what was the hardest thing about leaving the church. And she said, well, because I had so much love there, and I miss my friends. I miss those teaching experiences. She said, I have no friends now. And she said, I experience greater love now on a universal level because I realized that I was very constricted to just. Or restricted just to this small pool of the LDS Church. And now I get to love humanity and think that humanity is good instead of just the church members are good. But that doesn't mean that I didn't feel deep love in the church and that I didn't have amazing spiritual experiences and that I am not who I am because of it. And I resonate with that. I've worked through my anger, and I feel like now I'm in a place of, like, gosh, I'm so glad that that's how I was raised, in a lot of ways. Ways. There's some things that I feel pissed about still, but. But I learned how to pray. I learned how. A personal revelation. What. What religions teach about that. Not. I don't think a lot of them do. And so I think that we get a leg up because we were raised in the church, in spirituality, you know, and connecting with God and Source universe, whatever you want to call it, or your higher self. And so there's a lot of beauty there. And I think that it doesn't have to be so black and white. We can say thank you next. As Ariana Grande.

Heather Gay [02:36:46] Ariana Grande.

Dre Nord [02:36:47] She's very grateful for what Pete Davidson taught her because we learned something. It's just like an old lover, you know, it doesn't mean we hate them, but, like.

Heather Gay [02:36:58] But they hate us.

Dre Nord [02:36:59] But they. They. They do hate us.

John Dehlin [02:37:01] But who hates us?

Heather Gay [02:37:03] I mean. Well, right now, the most trolling I get is from the Mormons.

John Dehlin [02:37:06] You know, what do they say?

Heather Gay [02:37:09] Just condemning me for breaking code, meaning talking about Mormonism in an. In an inappropriate manner. I mean, I don't think I'm ever trying to disrespect them.

John Dehlin [02:37:22] In the four episodes, I haven't seen you disrespect Mormons.

Heather Gay [02:37:24] Well, there she has people that think

Dre Nord [02:37:26] contrary to that, she hasn't.

John Dehlin [02:37:30] Okay.

Heather Gay [02:37:30] But I think it's mostly. I'm just not spinning it in the. In a palatable way. I'm just saying, what. Well, this is the doctrine. Gays can't get into heaven, you know, and gays can't participate in the church if they're actively gay. And they're like, don't we love everyone? Yeah, spin it the other way. Oh, we love everyone, but we won't let you into heaven.

Dre Nord [02:37:49] And I'm gonna also dedicate 10% of

Heather Gay [02:37:52] my money to conversion therapy and to, you know, and to.

Dre Nord [02:37:55] Or to going against gay marriage, to putting, you know, flyers out in Arizona and California.

Heather Gay [02:38:00] I'm gonna stand on a corner with a sign that says, you know, doma, you know, Defensive Marriage act, or all these things. Like, there were times when that was part of our calling, you know, that we were asked to do that. And, like, that's just what I think people struggle with, is that I am breaking code and saying, listen, you know,

Dre Nord [02:38:22] you've acknowledged race issues in the church. That's a hard one for people. You've brought up the unfair treatment of gay people in the church. That's a tough one to look at.

Heather Gay [02:38:34] And it's not the treatment. It's the doctrine.

Dre Nord [02:38:35] It's the doctrine. Yeah.

Heather Gay [02:38:36] It's not the treatment.

Dre Nord [02:38:37] You're right.

Heather Gay [02:38:38] Like, they're. I mean, they're wonderful to a point. You know, they. If they're not going to let you bless the sacrament or say a public prayer or work in the nursery, you know, or teach a class. Like, it doesn't matter how devout you are if you're. But like. Like you're going to still get invited to the fun parties, you know, like,

Dre Nord [02:38:54] if, of course, you can still be considered part of the congregation, but doctrinally, it is not. There's no gray area there with the doctrine for homosexuality. And then also, you've gotten a lot of lash, like. Or pushback. Blowback. Thank you. About you stating that there is a standard of perfection in Salt Lake City because of the church, and I don't

Real Housewives, Public Scrutiny, and Mormon Identity

Heather Gay [02:39:19] understand why people don't understand. The threefold mission of the church is to proclaim the gospel, perfect the saints, and redeem the dead. This is not. I didn't write that.

John Dehlin [02:39:29] No, that's right.

Heather Gay [02:39:29] That's why we're Mormons. To proclaim the gospel, perfect the saints, and redeem the dead. So why what did I say? That has been misconstrued.

John Dehlin [02:39:39] No. And that's so important. Like, I'll just say this really quickly. I don't want to take from what you guys. Everything you guys are sharing is so beautiful. Beautiful. But I'll be honest. I am a prude. I am a conservative, fuddy duddy guy. I would have never watched Real Housewives and I would have, like, looked down on and is like low brow, to be honest. Right. Because that's just. I, I, you know, whatever. For whatever reason, I'm Mormon.

Heather Gay [02:40:02] You're superior.

John Dehlin [02:40:04] Exactly.

Dre Nord [02:40:04] Male.

John Dehlin [02:40:05] Exactly. But, but I'm like, you know, like priesthood. Like, it's, it's low brow. It's not righteous. You know, I still got all that in me. Like, I still have a hard time watching a Quentin Tarantino movie. Like, oh, it's too much violence, you know, too much swearing. That makes me uncomfortable. I'm still very Mormon. I'm the world's most Mormon ex Mormon in the world. But what I did is I started taking notes on your awesome episodes and I started writing down the themes that you guys were covering and I'm like, are these Mormon themes? Are these Utah themes? Are these Mormon cultural themes? Right. Alcohol, biggest issue swinging. Big issue in Utah and Arizona and Idaho where Mormons and ex Mormons are. And active Mormons. Addiction. Utah freaking. Leads the nation in prescription drug use and abuse and so. And addiction in so many areas. Superficiality. Right. Plastic, this fakeness. Right. Faith, judging, fidelity, perfectionism. BYU marriage, troubled marriage, polygamy porn. Traditional roles and, you know, eating disorders. I drew some eating disorder stuff. I don't know if they fucked up.

Heather Gay [02:41:14] Yeah, we'll hit it. I'm sure we will. And the slut shaming, honor code, What?

John Dehlin [02:41:17] Exactly. Yeah. So, like, you guys are hitting so many important themes and if anybody tells you you're not representing Real Housewives, you are representing the, the, the good and the bad, the dark and the light. Yeah, yeah. Those are important themes. If somebody tells you perfectionism, female perfectionism isn't a relevant Mormon Utah women theme, they're completely lying and deluding themselves. Sorry, that's my sermon.

Heather Gay [02:41:47] Thank you for saying that. Because we have heard. We have heard otherwise. Yeah. Perfectionism doesn't exist. And we love gay people and we love black people and we love, love, you know, all people.

Dre Nord [02:42:01] Which of course they do. It's because we're all. Because they're wonderful people. Mormons are great. However, doctrine exists that is problematic if you are gay, a person of color or a woman.

Heather Gay [02:42:19] That's just, that's just what it is. You didn't write it. I didn't write it and I lived it and I suspended disbelief to support it and proclaim it. And my money has gone to, to it, to fortify it. And you know, and now it no longer will. So now I've lost my ability to speak on it because of that.

John Dehlin [02:42:43] No, you haven't. You are speaking on it. You're speaking out. And you're not. You have a, you have a very kind, I think, way of talking about Mormonism. I don't think it's mean spirited. I don't think you're trying to take anything down. I don't think you're even trying to be critical. But I think you're just sharing your experience. That's what I get.

Dre Nord [02:43:04] No, Heather's still full Mormon. Like that's what kills me is I'm like, you guys, I'm one of you. She's like going through this actively as we speak, questioning and struggling obviously with where to go from here. And it's really, really tough. And I don't think you're alone, Heather. I, I think a lot of people feel the same way as you.

John Dehlin [02:43:25] Amen. But it feels like betrayal to an orthodox Mormon.

Heather Gay [02:43:30] And I guess, and I understand that, a betrayal to like the tried and trues, you know, but a betrayal to the ones that don't even know what they're speaking out on. You know, the ones that are, that say there's a difference between the culture and the doctrine. Yeah. Because you don't know the doctrine from your ass.

Dre Nord [02:43:49] It's interesting to hear, to see who have been the most vocal people about disagreeing with Heather and her skin.

Heather Gay [02:43:57] They don't. I would love for them to disagree and have a discourse they can condemn.

John Dehlin [02:44:01] Talk about you behind your back.

Heather Gay [02:44:02] Yeah. Or to me directly. They send me messages and they do public declarations of how I am, you know, I'm just a horrible human being and obviously like damaging the church.

John Dehlin [02:44:15] You are getting emails like that?

Heather Gay [02:44:17] Yeah, I get DMs every day. Day.

John Dehlin [02:44:19] Oh, no.

Dre Nord [02:44:20] Well, John, have you not heard about the, like, influencer backlash from all the Mormon Mommy. From all the influencers. And some. Not all. I shouldn't say all because some were dear friends. Totally, totally kind about it. But a lot of the big names, you know, D list celebrities in Utah had terrible things to say about Heather and there are people that don't even know her. And it's always shocking to me how people. I know you experience it too, but like how people can jump to judgment and say things about someone that they've literally never met.

Heather Gay [02:44:56] And they have more in common with me than anyone else on that show. And yet all of their venom is targeted directly at me, which in a way lets me know that I triggering something. And you only trigger things when you hit on the truth. You know, when I say Mormons have horns and tails, I won't get a dm. You know what I mean? Let's be like, oh, that's preposterous. When I say Mormons have a history of misogyny, you know, and homophobia. Like, yeah, they're like, they look it up and then they're like, you whore, you're betraying the faith.

Dre Nord [02:45:35] Yeah, I think it's tough to be Mormon and especially a transitioning Mormon in the public eye. It would be really, really tough in

Heather Gay [02:45:42] Utah on a show called Real Housewives

Dre Nord [02:45:44] of Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [02:45:47] I mean, you. What? I don't know that you're like, that's why I'm so happy to do this interview. And I'm so happy you guys were willing to do this interview because the show doesn't allow for you to show parts of yourself. The show's just not made to show all parts of you. I don't think. Think.

Dre Nord [02:46:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:04] I don't mean to speak for 35 minute episodes, and I'm not saying I'm surprised, but I knew this would happen. But I'm delighted that it, that it. It's so profound. You guys are wise, thoughtful, caring, sensitive, deep, articulate humans. And I'm just so happy that you're able to do that and tell your full story here. Hear. What are you feeling, Heather?

Heather Gay [02:46:31] No, just, you know, nice to hear nice things, you know.

Dre Nord [02:46:39] Yeah. Heather's amazing and she's incredibly brave.

John Dehlin [02:46:43] You haven't been hearing a lot of nice things.

Heather Gay [02:46:44] I'm hearing wonderful things from like the gay community and the Mormon community of, you know, I want to say a lot of disgruntled that aren't would never leave, you know, but. And a lot of ex Mormons and a lot of Mormons, gay Mormons, a lot of. A lot of Mormon marginalized Mormons, but the orthodox ones. And I mean. And it's. Yeah, my family doesn't even speak of it. Like, we don't even speak of it. So, you know, it's just, it is what it is. It's not a forum to teach people about Mormonism, but you'd think people have a little bit more compassion for anyone that's put in as much as you have to defending the faith to maybe explore another option, but there's just absolutely no latitude. Hold the iron rod. The iron rod is the weapon of God. Safely he guide us through.

Dre Nord [02:47:50] Yeah, Heather knows all the hymns.

John Dehlin [02:47:52] Me too.

Heather Gay [02:47:52] Yeah. I don't even need the hymn books, man. Third verse.

Dre Nord [02:47:56] You know, I'm not that good, but I can get most of them.

John Dehlin [02:48:01] Yeah. In a way. Real Housewives of Salt Lake City is not at all Mormon, and in some ways, it's super Mormon. And it's both. It's shock value entertainment, and they're hitting on all the big themes. So you orthodox Mormons, if you think. Think this is nothing about Mormonism, you're a little. With kindness. I say you're a little bit in denial because there's so much Mormon there, so much Mormonism in this show as

Heather Gay [02:48:28] there should be, because it would be unjust to do a show, a regional show about Salt Lake City without Mormonism being a common thread.

John Dehlin [02:48:38] Yeah, just look deeper. Look deeper. The Mormonism's there. You will find it. If you want to. If you want to see it. Okay, listen, you guys are so lovely. I've loved every minute of our 2 hours and 57 minutes together so far, and I'm just so thrilled you're willing to come back. So here's the thing, listeners. This is part one, but we've still got a lot to go. So we've still. We haven't heard about. You know, there's. There may be more about Dre's experiences as a single mom and what happens in her life, how she ends up meeting. Meeting Heather and how she ends up an entrepreneur after she, like, you know, was. Was stranded as a single mom waiting tables in Park City. Like, I'm all wanting to hear about that. And we got to hear about Heather's marriage. We got to hear about living the Mormon dream. She was a Mormon housewife. And then what happened to her marriage and how it fell apart, and then how. Again, how she met. How she met Dream, how they started a wonderful business together that is successful and thriving. And then how did Heather have a faith crisis? And then there. Maybe there's some Real Housewives stuff that we might touch briefly on, but that's. That's for the show. So if they want to hear. If you want to watch the show. How do they watch the show?

Heather Gay [02:49:54] It's on Wednesday nights on Bravo tv, or you can stream it at any time or, like, get it on YouTube or Hulu, but it's on. It's on Bravo. Every Wednesday.

Dre Nord [02:50:04] So fun. Heather's the funniest and the coolest.

Heather Gay [02:50:09] My favorite housewife and the most polarizing, as I should be.

John Dehlin [02:50:14] You guys are awesome. Well, thank you so much for having us.

Dre Nord [02:50:16] Thanks for having us.

Heather Gay [02:50:17] I'm looking forward to part two.

John Dehlin [02:50:18] Are you sure?

Heather Gay [02:50:19] Yeah, I want to stay all day.

Dre Nord [02:50:20] I know we're cursing that we have children right now.

Heather Gay [02:50:24] A drill team performance to head to.

John Dehlin [02:50:27] Okay.

Heather Gay [02:50:27] Otherwise, I'd say because you actually are

John Dehlin [02:50:28] real Housewives or we are real moms and real housewives.

Dre Nord [02:50:31] I'm not a housewife, but she's.

Heather Gay [02:50:32] We call her an fo. She's a friend.

Dre Nord [02:50:34] Friend of.

John Dehlin [02:50:35] Yeah. All right. All right, guys, we'll see you very soon.

Dre Nord [02:50:39] See you next time.

John Dehlin [02:50:40] And listeners, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. You're awesome. Email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com. give us your comments. Share this with everyone and come back because we're going to have part two with. With Heather and Dre, Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. Take care, everybody. Thanks so much. See you guys again soon.