Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your co hosts for today, John de lynn. It is April 14, 2022 and I'm wearing my Be a Menace shirt in support of Black Menaces, the amazing Tick Tock and Instagram channel of BYU students of color who are trying to, I don't know, fight racism. And we, we love Black Menaces and we're supporting them. So shout out to them. We are really excited for today's episode. This is part three of our episode of our of our series on doctrine and covenants, section 132 with the 1, the only, the myth, the legend, Sandra Tanner.

Sandra Tanner [00:00:50] Hey, Sandra, how do?

John Dehlin [00:00:52] Welcome back. Yes, good to have you.

Sandra Tanner [00:00:55] Yes, I now have you on my favorite list of directions to go somewhere from Google.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] Google Maps.

Sandra Tanner [00:01:03] Yeah, I get in my car and I just hit find my favorite place.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] Well, we're honored to have you in Mormon Stories Studios. So thanks for joining us. We're also joined by the amazing Gerardo Sumano. Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:18] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:19] What shirt are you wearing?

Gerardo Sumano [00:01:22] Be a Menace. Black. Black Menace's Tick Tock channel. So excited.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] Yeah, it's good to have you again. And, and of course running the soundboard and doing the production that she does so well and commenting. We have Jen camp. Hey, Jen.

Jenn Kamp [00:01:40] Hi, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] So glad to have you. We're getting tons of feedback of people loving what you bring to the podcast. So glad to have you.

Jenn Kamp [00:01:49] Thanks for that.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] Yeah. All right, so again, I guess we have just a couple super quick announcements. Jen, you want to do like 20 seconds of announcements?

Jenn Kamp [00:01:59] Yeah, super fast. So open arms. Collective women and non binary group. We meet once a month. You can see all the events on mormonstories.org events. So we're doing cake decorating, yoga. We're having a speaker come in. So go there, check those out, register there for those. And then I just wanted to give a shout out to the Lost and Found Club. They're having a Palatine's dance drinks. Just a fun party on Saturday. So go to lostandfound club and you can sign up for that event there.

John Dehlin [00:02:39] Beautiful. All right, I think you broke the record for the fastest.

Jenn Kamp [00:02:45] Good. I want to get right to Sandra.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] So I'm excited and we're super grateful for all the people who are joining us live on either Facebook or YouTube. We're grateful for our live audience and we're going to be reading your comments throughout this episode and showing them up on the screen. We of course always welcome everybody, anyone who wants to support Sandra. We are Paying Sandra for these episodes, we also pay our staff. So anyone who values this content wants to throw us some super chat donations through YouTube. The little dollar sign in the chats, you can donate there or on Facebook, you can use the stars feature. We always appreciate that, and of course, we're always grateful to our monthly supporters, and we look forward to your comments.

Context from Parts One and Two

John Dehlin [00:03:31] All right, without any further ado, let's get into it. So for those who didn't join us for parts one and two, we were inspired by a podcast with John. By the way, who else?

Gerardo Sumano [00:03:43] Gerardo Hank Smith and Kate Holbrooke.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] Yeah. And they did sort of a Internet Sunday school where they replicated what's often done in Mormon Sunday schools. Whenever Doctrine of Covenants 132 is covered, it's. It's. If it's covered, it's kind of really breezed over. A few of the highlights are mentioned in apologetic ways that. That make polygamy look a lot more favorable than it probably should. And then a whole ton of the sections are skipped. So for parts one and part two, if you haven't watched them or listened to them yet, go back. We cover in those two two episodes, DNC section 132, verses 1 through 40. But one of the most conspicuous parts of those Sunday schools, virtual Sunday schools, is they left out verses 41 through 66, conveniently. And that's where the juices. That's where the meat is. Right, Sandra?

Sandra Tanner [00:04:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:04:46] So what we thought we'd do is to hold Post Mormon Sunday School, where we are going to be reading DNC 132 like it should be read. For those who really care about truth, who really care about history, and who frankly care about women and care about the treatment of women, we're going to be having post Mormon Sunday school. So, Sandra, you've got your scriptures. You want to show us your scriptures?

Sandra Tanner [00:05:09] Yes. Right.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] Got your scriptures in your lap?

Sandra Tanner [00:05:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:12] And we're going to have.

Sandra Tanner [00:05:13] It's marked up and everything.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] So, Jen, you ready for Post Mormon Sunday school?

Jenn Kamp [00:05:18] I am.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] Rorto, you ready?

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:19] Super ready. I was just thinking, John, should we just briefly, in a few minutes, talk about the things that we established if already on the first two episodes?

John Dehlin [00:05:31] Yeah. If you can summarize it. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:34] Yeah. So basically, we established that there's no doubt that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. Right. We established that he definitely had sexual relations with at least some of the women we know. Like, there's evidence for that. And Kate Holbrooke, Hank Smith, they talk about that.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] And we should add according to the Book of Mormon. That's the whole point is to raise up a seed.

Gerardo Sumano [00:05:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:05:58] So if Joseph weren't having sex with his plural wives, he would be violating the Book of Mormon. Right, Sandra?

Sandra Tanner [00:06:06] Yes. I mean, the one excuse for having polygamy was to raise up seed. And yet they want to keep saying he didn't sleep with any of them. So I don't understand why he's marrying them.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Right. And we've already talked about the fact that many of these plural wives after Joseph died signed sworn affidavits that they were married to him in very deed. Correct?

Sandra Tanner [00:06:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:28] Yeah. Okay. What else?

Gerardo Sumano [00:06:31] We established that he violated some of the things revealed on doctrine and Covenants

John Dehlin [00:06:38] 132, like the law of Sarah. He's supposed to have asked Emma for permission for all subsequent wives. And he was married 22 times at least before he ever talked to Emma about this revelation. Not to mention the fact that he started polygamy before even this, the gift of seal with Fanny Alger. He started polygamy before he was even given the power of ceiling.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:02] Yeah. Kate Holbrooke does a really good job at telling us the, the best date that we know for Fanny Algeria, which is 1833. Right. I think the church, and usually Brian Hels tries to put it as close as possible to the reception of the. When the, When Joseph receives the power of the ceiling.

Sandra Tanner [00:07:24] Yeah. Some of them want to move it up to 36.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:26] Right.

Sandra Tanner [00:07:27] And that's kind of late.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:28] Right. So Kay Holbrook, who works for the church, she's a historian, she tells us it's 1833. So that kind of doesn't make sense. Joseph marrying women before receiving the power of the ceiling. We established that he married women who were already married to faithful men in the church.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] That polyandry for those who don't know.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:54] Yep. Some of them were even on, during, on missions when Joseph married their, their wives. Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] Yep.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:03] What else, Sandra? Do you remember?

Sandra Tanner [00:08:08] I don't, I can't remember what all. I'd have to go read my scriptures.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:15] I think that was the most, some of the most important highlights.

John Dehlin [00:08:17] Yeah, no, I think that's all, that's all really important stuff. And yeah, we'll, we'll be getting. There's some repetition. I, I, there's some repetition, but I think that covers it.

Sandra Tanner [00:08:28] Yep.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:28] Yeah. All right.

Reading D&C 132 Verse by Verse Begins

John Dehlin [00:08:30] All right, well, so, so pull out your scriptures, everybody. Pull out your real scriptures or your virtual scriptures. We're going to start with DNC 132, verse 42.

Sandra Tanner [00:08:44] And we're going to just read 42, not 41.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] 41. Sorry. Thank you. And we're going to just read verse by verse and have commentary on it. Is that okay? And I'll. I'll read and then you guys comment, and then I'll. If I have a comment to throw in, I will so. DNC 132, verse 41. And as ye have asked concerning adultery, verily, verily, I say unto you, if a man receiveth a wife in the new and everlasting covenant, and if she be with another man, and I have not appointed unto her by the holy anointing, she hath committed adultery and shall be destroyed. All right, what do we. Sandra, what's interesting about that verse to you?

Sandra Tanner [00:09:29] Well, the. The word destroyed is problematic because are we seriously saying. Is God seriously saying shall be killed? I have Mormons try to say to me, oh, that doesn't mean that. It means spiritually she would be spiritually destroyed. And I said, well, I don't know that that makes me feel a lot better. She's going to hell forever. But I think all the way through the. The feeling you get is they're talking about physical harm some way and destroyed. And when I think in terms of the temple ritual, which they would have been through at this point, weren't they doing blood oaths in there where they were drawing their thumb across their throat, swearing an oath that if they revealed these things, they'd be destroyed? How did Mormons understand destroyed? Would it have been the same as in the temple as what's said here to Emma? But it certainly sounds like God's going to kill her.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's disturbing. This destroyed word appears all throughout this section. And it's a God I don't want any part of. And it's supposed to be Jesus, right? Isn't the God of the Doctrine and Covenants, Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace?

Sandra Tanner [00:10:59] And. Well, one of the things that troubles me about this is there is in the Doctrine of Covenants at this time he's having this discussion or getting this revelation supposedly in 43, or is it 42, whatever, when he gets section 132, there is already a section in the Doctrine and Covenants that says they don't believe in polygamy. So then to go to Emma when the rule of the church has been voted on in the Doctrine of Covenants that they don't believe polygamy, and then to throw at her this kind of a threat would publicly the church stand was there, was no. Polygamy. That's a horrible thing to have be teaching that kind of stuff and yet turn around in the bedroom and threaten Emma that if you don't concede to this, God's going to destroy you. I just. It's just a horrible thought.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] Yeah. Because this stuff, Joseph's lying to Emma, but he's also lying to the church and. And the dnc, the equivalent of the DNC and the Book of Mormon are both generally condemning it.

Sandra Tanner [00:12:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] So it's all just. It's just really weird. It puts them in this weird situation.

Sandra Tanner [00:12:09] Right.

Jenn Kamp [00:12:11] It's just weird to me too, that God would be condemning Joseph for. For not practicing the polygamy, but not condemning him for lying to his wife.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:12:27] Like he has a. Has an angel with a flaming sword come down to tell him about polygamy but not any reprimand about lying to his wife at the same time and

John Dehlin [00:12:37] to the church membership and to the general public.

Jenn Kamp [00:12:39] Yeah, that just convenient.

Gendered Double Standards in D&C 132

John Dehlin [00:12:42] Okay, I. I'm curious. It's talking about if, you know, it's talking about some fictitious woman here. If she be with another man and, you know, God has not appointed it, then she hath committed adultery and will be destroyed. It's not talking about the man that she would have had to have been with. So why is it that God's destroying the woman for committing adultery and not the man that she's committing adultery with? It doesn't even mention the man. It's kind of like, I mean, in the New Testament when people are bringing the adulteress in front of Jesus, they're all wanting to stone her, and the guy that she would have committed adultery with is not even in the equation.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] It's almost. We're going to get into this theme, but it's almost just this idea that women aren't even important enough. I mean, women are the ones that are in trouble and men have this higher status where. Yeah. I don't know.

Sandra Tanner [00:13:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] Does that make sense?

Sandra Tanner [00:13:45] It sadly looks that way.

Jenn Kamp [00:13:47] It's always bothered me that story that, like, where the man is right as a woman. It's always bothered me. I actually did a talk in Sacrament on that one time because I. That story always bothered me. So I went and looked up because he calls the woman. He calls her woman. And I've always heard that as a derogatory thing. And. But he also. Jesus also calls his mother woman. And so to him it was an endearment. I don't know. Yeah, there's just a lot. There's a lot that is wrapped up in that whole story.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] I mean, it's a bummer that. That these scriptures reflect misogyny so blatantly, because you would think that if it's Jesus revealing his words to Joseph, Jesus would be more equitable and compassionate about how he talks about men versus women. But again, just like the Book of Mormon seems to really reflect early 19th century American rural mindset, the Doctrine and Covenants seems to sort of represent early 19th century misogyny, discrimination against women. No.

Sandra Tanner [00:15:08] Well, I've been that way for centuries in England, before they even came to America, where the chambermaid gets put upon by the manor owner of the manor, and she's the one that gets put out on the street, and he just goes on with life. Unfortunately, that's been part of the. Our history for centuries.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:32] I think also when you consider the context. I mean, I know we talked about it in the last two episodes, but it's important to always remember the context in which this revelation is being dictated. You know, Emma had already been mad about polygamy. She'd found.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] She refused to accept it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:48] Accept it. And then. So Hyrum tells Joseph.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] Joseph was afraid to tell Emma directly, Right? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:56] Yeah. So Hyrum tells Joseph, hey, if you come up with a revelation or if you receive a revelation from God, then I can take it to Emma.

Jenn Kamp [00:16:04] And.

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:05] And Emma might be able to accept it now. And Joseph said, well, if you think that, you probably don't know Emma, but he still dictates the revelation. And then Hiram goes and takes it to Emma. So this is a revelation that was or dictated to convince Emma, you know, to. That polygamy was the real deal.

John Dehlin [00:16:27] Right. Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:16:28] Yes. After Joseph had 22 plural wives. I was a little late, and I

John Dehlin [00:16:35] don't mean to beat a dead horse, but I don't think we've mentioned this. It's got this language of a man receiveth a wife. So it's like a wife is given. So, like, does the word. Am I making too much of this? Does the word receive imply property in ownership?

Gerardo Sumano [00:16:51] Well, that's how he talks about Solomon and. And David receiving their wives and concubines and that when. When they got. They took something that they had not received, then they committed adultery. You know, and the verses that we read earlier.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:08] So to me, it definitely implies property.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:17:11] But again, we're going back to English culture.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:15] Right.

Sandra Tanner [00:17:15] Our wedding vows. Who giveth this woman to this man?

John Dehlin [00:17:21] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:17:21] You know, it's. It's the same kind of feel.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:17:25] Same in the temple Same in the temple also. The temple, when you go through

John Dehlin [00:17:32] the. The husband receives the wife.

Jenn Kamp [00:17:34] Yeah. Through the veil.

John Dehlin [00:17:38] Okay, Anything else on. On verse 41? One, verse eight. Okay. Verse 42. If she be not in the new and everlasting covenant and she be with another man, she has committed adultery. Is that repetitive or is there something else interesting about that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:59] I think it's repetitive, but it's the point that I was thinking about as I was reading this. We're like, so he's saying if the woman has entered in the everlasting covenant, which means, you know, polygamy, she's been married to Joseph, but then she's with another man, then she has committed adultery. We know that Joseph, at least a third of his wives that we know of were married to other faithful men. But Joseph never sealed those women to their actual husbands, you know, to the original husband, but he got sealed to, you know, to them. So the women were sealed to Joseph, but at the same time sleeping or being with their original husbands. So is he. I don't know. This seems like it's saying that the women were committing adultery with their original husbands.

Sandra Tanner [00:18:56] And we do have that situation with. Is it Patty Session or Sylvia Session?

Gerardo Sumano [00:19:03] Sylvia.

Sandra Tanner [00:19:04] Sylvia. Where she's got a living husband and gets sealed to Joseph. And then there's the question of, did Joseph actually sleep with her? And was she separated from her husband for a period of time so that she didn't sleep with both men within the same week? I mean, I think Hales wants to make a position that she was separated from her husband during the period that she was having relations with Joseph. But we know from Sylvia's statement that she believed that her daughter was Joseph's child. And yet DNA has shown she's really the husband's child, which would say she slept with both men within a very short period of time. Otherwise you wouldn't get confused about who the husband was. So you wonder where that puts her in this verse. Did she commit adultery or not because she slept with her own husband?

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:06] Yeah, yeah. Very complicated.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] We have an important message from. From Jeremy Body. He says, can you tell Sandra Tanner I love her, please?

Sandra Tanner [00:20:17] Oh, wow. Okay. My fan club has started.

John Dehlin [00:20:23] Okay. All right. So on to verse 33. 43. And if her husband be with another woman, and he was under a vow, he hath broken his vow and hath

Sandra Tanner [00:20:38] committed adultery, but doesn't get destroyed.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:44] Oh, yeah, that's a good point.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] Yeah. And again, how does that work with polyandry? Right.

Sandra Tanner [00:20:51] Yes, it gets very confusing.

John Dehlin [00:20:54] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:55] And finally Oligarch? No, because we. Most of the evidence we have was that Fanny was

John Dehlin [00:21:05] an affair. Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, let's go to 44. And if she hath not committed adultery but is innocent, and hath not broken her vow, and she knoweth it, and I reveal it unto you, my servant Joseph, then shall you have power by the power of my holy priesthood to take her and give her unto him that hath not committed adultery but hath been faithful, for he shall be made ruler over many. Sandra, can you tell us what this verse is saying? Verse 44.

Sandra Tanner [00:21:43] Well, they're gonna package her up like a Christmas gift, evidently, and give her to this guy.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] So if a woman does What? If a woman.

Sandra Tanner [00:21:53] Oh, if she's faithful to keep all her vows.

John Dehlin [00:21:56] Okay.

Sandra Tanner [00:21:56] She's got to be obedient.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] Okay.

Sandra Tanner [00:21:59] And then he can give her to this other guy that hasn't committed adultery but has been faithful.

John Dehlin [00:22:07] And this sets up Joseph as what

Sandra Tanner [00:22:09] Sandra was the arbitrator of, who gets to have a plural wife. He gets to decide whether both parties have been faithful, evidently.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] And there's no mention of, like, the woman getting to pick who she wants to be married to. Right, Jen?

Jenn Kamp [00:22:24] Right. Yeah. He just gets to assign her like some stockyard animal to whoever he. Whoever he needs a favor from is what it sounds like.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] But you're not usually the spicy.

Jenn Kamp [00:22:41] I know. I'm sorry. This is like. This polygamy is what was the shelf breaker for me. I'm.

John Dehlin [00:22:48] You're allowed to be spicy.

Jenn Kamp [00:22:49] I'm a little bit. A little bit passionate about this one.

Sandra Tanner [00:22:52] Well, I think it's also interesting at the end of the verse where it says, if he's been faithful, for he shall be made. He shall be made ruler over many. So he gets to be a ruler over many women.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] Yeah, yeah. And couples and families.

Sandra Tanner [00:23:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:12] Like. Like. And for those who think we're just kind of nitpicking here, this is how it worked. Like, both with Joseph and with Brigham. Women were assigned to men, and deals were made between, you know, parents of women and the prophet and. And the prophet and parents would give their daughters to men that the prophets approved of. I mean, that's literally how it worked. And Warren Jeffs. This not didn't just happen with Warren Jeffs, although it did happen with Warren Jeffs. It. It happened with Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Correct, Sandra?

Sandra Tanner [00:23:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:50] Is that right?

Sandra Tanner [00:23:51] Yep.

Jenn Kamp [00:23:52] And that was in. That was in the temple words until very recently. They only very recently said you used to have to, like. The woman had to Answer to her husband, and then her husband would answer to God.

John Dehlin [00:24:05] Yeah, the hearkening.

Jenn Kamp [00:24:06] Yeah, hearken. And just barely, just recently, they. They changed the wording.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:12] I didn't know. I learned. I mean, I probably learned this earlier, but I had forgotten that originally on the temple ceremony, the women did not vow, like they don't covenant with God. It was directly to the husband.

John Dehlin [00:24:27] Yeah, the husband. And in the Mormon Temple ceremony, for the overwhelming preponderance of the existence of the Mormon Temple ceremony, the man covenants with God and the. And the woman covenants to hearken to her husband as he hearkened.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:41] Then they later added the. The phrase as he hearkens unto God.

John Dehlin [00:24:46] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:47] So that was like a later addition, but. But for like the original one was just harking onto the husband no matter what the husband does.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] And again, I would just hope. I would have thought Jesus would have been ahead of us on this. Not. Yeah, yeah, Mormon Jesus. Okay, yeah. All right. So that's 40. And again, I just think. And we're gonna. This is. This theme's gonna come over and over again. It's so much power to give to a human being that he's deciding what women marry what men, and he's taking women away from unworthy men and reassigning the women to other men and taking

Jenn Kamp [00:25:26] children to himself who just want to go to the dance.

John Dehlin [00:25:31] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:25:32] And it's sad.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] Yeah, yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:25:34] And these are choices that by their belief system, affect them forever. When you take somebody and say, I'm going to assign you over here, this is a forever deal in their thinking. So it just makes it such a monumental decision that seems to be putting all this power in one guy to be able to say whether you're going to be with your legal husband forever or you got to be with the prophet forever. Which would also mean your children you had with the legal marriage would go with the polygamous marriage. So you're not just changing husbands, you're taking your kids with you to be in his kingdom.

John Dehlin [00:26:22] Right? Yeah, yeah, it's messed up. Okay. Verse 45. For I have confirmed upon you and I'm assuming you as Joseph Smith. Right. For I've conferred upon you the keys and power of the priesthood, wherein I restore all things and make known unto you all things in due time. So here it's conflating Joseph's keys and priesthood power with. With the ability to do all these. All this wife reassigning and children reassigning.

Gerardo Sumano [00:26:55] Yep.

Sandra Tanner [00:26:56] And that's why you have in some of the polygamous groups, they do reassign women. The leader gets upset with someone in the group, and they just arbitrarily take the wife and kids and assign them to somebody else, and the man is just left with nothing. But that's. This is where it comes from.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] Okay. Anything else on 45? All right, 46. And verily, verily, I say unto you that whosoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven. And whatsoever you bind on earth in my name, and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens. And whosoever sins. Whosoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens. And whosoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven. Sandra, what's Joseph Smith doing here?

Joseph Smith's God-Like Authority and Power

Sandra Tanner [00:27:58] Well, it looks like God gave him all the same power of judgment. And I mean that the president of the church has the ability to truly act as God to these people. He makes eternal decisions for people.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] Yeah, it's. It's almost like Joseph is forgiving people's sins. He's remitting their sins, and that has eternal consequences. And what I wrote is that that's just a lot of power. Yeah, because we. We often talk about the. Well, you made the really cool quote, Gerardo, about how treasure digging is a metaphor for the covenant path or the plan of salvation. Because you're always searching for the treasure of, like, feeling good about yourself or feeling worth or value. And it's always elusive because the church wants you on that hamster wheel of hustling for. For value and for worth. And in this case. And that's the way the law of chastity so often works.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] And the temple recommend process, because you want members feeling unworthy because otherwise they don't need the church. But if they do feel unworthy, then they need the church. And the church can make them always feeling like they're hustling for worth. So giving Joseph the power to remit sins keeps the members really tied to Joseph and feeling like they've got to do good by Joseph and then he'll forgive their sins, and then they can feel good about themselves. Is that a stretch?

Sandra Tanner [00:29:33] No. And I think that also explains a lot why the Mormons keep building more temples. Because if you can keep the members worried about their acceptance before God, that they have to stay worthy to go to the temple, then it's a way of emotionally tying them to the church, renewing the tie all the time, every time they go.

Jenn Kamp [00:29:57] Yeah, that I Never noticed that part that, that he is actually saying that he has the same power as Jesus. As Jesus?

John Dehlin [00:30:09] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:30:10] Like. Like, I was never taught that. Yeah, I was taught that Jesus is the only one that can forgive my sins. And now Joseph in here is saying that he has that power. He has that power to remit them, which I clicked on it on lds.org just to make sure that remit meant that is what they're saying. And it does. And I have never heard that, ever.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:35] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:30:36] And that's disturbing to me.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:38] Well, Well, I. I took two things. One is, like, what happens when the prophet messes up? We know. You know, Kate Hallbrook wants to say, well, Joseph didn't do this very well. He didn't follow doctrine. Comments 132. He made mistakes.

Sandra Tanner [00:30:55] It was messy.

Gerardo Sumano [00:30:56] She says, so what does this mean for, like, something so important, like forgiving sins, taking other women, other men's wives, giving them to others? What does it mean? You know, there's this idea that prophets cannot lead the church astray. But Jim Bennett, who, you know is a faithful member of the church, he makes a really good point. He says that if, if that's true, then that would mean that the prophet loses any kind of agency as soon as they're called as prophets. And that, that can't be. So that. So Jim Bennett believes that the prophet not being able to make mistakes is a. An apostate idea. But, you know, so if Joseph was making mistakes, why would God give him this much power? You know, how do we know how many of these people or like, deals that he was doing were right? Which ones were not? You know?

John Dehlin [00:32:01] And Sandra, as a Christian, I'm just curious how you feel about a verse that's claiming that Jesus is giving Joseph Smith the power to forgive sins. How does that make you feel as a Christian?

Sandra Tanner [00:32:13] Well, I guess devaluing Christ. Christ. I mean, the whole point of the atonement is he took care of our sins because none of us could do it ourselves. So why would he turn around and give that power to a fallen man? Then we wouldn't have needed Jesus to die in the first place. If fallen men could take care of forgiving sins.

Jenn Kamp [00:32:34] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] Yeah. Yeah. And to me, this has second anointing vibes.

Jenn Kamp [00:32:40] I was just going to say.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] What were you thinking? Go ahead.

Jenn Kamp [00:32:42] No, when Gerardo was talking, I'm like, then that takes into place the prophet and the second anointing, if he is going, if he also can sin or not sin, you know, if he has that power, it's just so it's. Yeah. So messy.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] If everybody is afraid that they're gonna go to hell, if everybody. And that's. That's the basis of some people's interpretation of Christianity, that if they don't do the right things, they. They're going to hell. In Mormonism, they up it a little bit and they say you won't be with your family or with God if you don't do what's right, then the ability to make people think they've been forgiven of their sins is a lot of power.

Sandra Tanner [00:33:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] And so this idea of Joseph being able to forgive people's sins, not only is it insulting to Christ's divinity, but it's giving him a lot of power if they do what he wants. Like with the second anointing, if you pay enough money to the church, if you have enough influence, if you've donated enough money, if you've, you know, obeyed the brethren in a way that. That they want, then the church or the prophet will turn around and tell you your sins are forgiven. And then you can feel really good about the rest of your life because you're going to be going to Social Kingdom and that. It feels like a form of patronage, like the Catholic Church and indulgences.

Sandra Tanner [00:33:59] Yeah, right, right, right. Because you're. You are just like indulgences. Because once you do everything they've asked of you for a long enough period of time, they're going to give you a guarantee that you have eternal life. Worlds without end, wives without end. Every. And you. Hey, we got a bonus. You can commit any sin. Sin. As long as you don't murder someone.

John Dehlin [00:34:29] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:34:29] Don't take innocent blood. I mean, that's a lot of power to give to someone that they get to judge you on whether you're worthy for that.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:40] And the. The second point I just wanted to make about this verse. This verse debunks the idea that Bri, that Brian Hil came up with, that is very prevalent among the church, that members who know anything about polygamy. This idea that Joseph was doing some ceilings only for time, and then some ceilings for time and eternity. This verse makes it very clear that whatever Joseph was doing on earth was also being done on heaven. So Brian Hill's trying to say, well, somewhere, just for eternity, he was not looking to have sex with them. Well, it was both like he was doing time and eternity, and it was just, you know, all together. It came all in a package.

Jenn Kamp [00:35:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] Yeah. That Brian Hills just so often feels like. Just sort of like motivated reasoning Just using logic after the fact to try and justify. Because where's the scriptural basis for like certain ceilings, earth only versus other ceilings being eternal in heaven.

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:50] Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:51] Where in DNC 132 does it allow for that?

Gerardo Sumano [00:35:54] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:35:54] Yeah. It's just like he's trying to excuse bad behavior. Okay. And we would think that we're beating a dead horse here by reading verse 47, but for me, verse 47 just takes it to another level. Verse 47. And again, verily I say unto you, whomsoever you meaning Joseph. So this is Jesus talking to Joseph. Whomsoever you bless, I will bless. And whomsoever you curse, I will curse, saith the Lord. For I the Lord am thy God. Is there, is there anything that's disturbing to you? You all about that?

Sandra Tanner [00:36:33] Well, he's God's representative and Jesus is going to give him the same power.

John Dehlin [00:36:39] To curse.

Sandra Tanner [00:36:39] Yeah, to curse.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] So like it's basically saying Joseph is God. Right. Joseph is God. And if Joseph curses you, it's. It's as if God.

Sandra Tanner [00:36:50] It's a done deal. Yep. He has the power.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] So I mean, it's, it's God on earth. It's. This is. I mean, Joseph didn't claim to be God or Jesus, but he may as well.

Sandra Tanner [00:37:00] Yeah, he may as well have been pretty close.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] I mean, you have, all of you have the power to forgive, which is the power of the atonement, and you have the power to curse.

Sandra Tanner [00:37:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:09] And it's equivalent to God's and Jesus's power. What else is there? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:17] Kind of crazy.

John Dehlin [00:37:18] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:18] When you think that, you know, members wants to say that, oh well, Joseph made mistakes, but it's, it's all fine.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:37:29] We're only human. That's the problem. If we're only human.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:34] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:37:35] Do we really want someone to have this kind of power?

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:37] Right, exactly. Yeah, that's my point.

John Dehlin [00:37:39] Yeah. This is a massive power grab and it's really disturbing. Jen, do you want to add anything to that?

Jenn Kamp [00:37:44] No, I'm just letting it sink all in. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:49] Okay. Verse 48. And again, verily I say unto you, my servant Joseph, that whatsoever you give on earth and to whomsoever you give anyone on earth, anyone on earth, by my word and according to my law, it shall be visited with blessings and not cursings and with my power saith the Lord and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven. I don't know if this is just repetitive.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:18] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:38:19] I am not quite sure what all he's getting at there. Yeah. Is it repetitive or did he say something? You know,

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:28] the chiasmus?

Sandra Tanner [00:38:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:38:31] It's a mystery.

Sandra Tanner [00:38:32] It's just more power. I mean, it's just God's just really going to make sure he gets the point. Look, Guy, I'm really giving you all the power here. Everything, no matter what way you want to define this, you got it.

John Dehlin [00:38:44] Without condemnation on Earth and in heaven.

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:47] Alpha and Omega, from the beginning to the end, forever and ever. Amen. And amen. And we didn't even mention that this revelation wasn't even put in the Doctrine and covenants until, what, 1870s?

Sandra Tanner [00:39:03] 1876.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] Yeah. So it's like so many words and so much power to, like, not even be in the DNC for the first 30 years of its existence. Yeah, it's weird.

Gerardo Sumano [00:39:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] Okay, we're beating that horse, but we're just reading the Scriptures, guys and gals. Come on. All right. Verse 49, right? For I am the Lord thy God and will be with thee even unto the end of the world and through all eternity. For verily, I seal upon you your exaltation and prepare a throne for you in the kingdom of my father with Abraham, your father. So what's that? What's that about?

Sandra Tanner [00:39:44] Well, kingship.

John Dehlin [00:39:46] Exactly. Joseph is going to be a king sitting next to God, Jesus and Abraham. Right.

Sandra Tanner [00:39:53] So, yes, he's one of those that will go on to become gods. As it said earlier in the Doctrine and Covenants about, if you do all these things, then shall ye be gods. And this is again affirming that that's the goal. If you obey everything, you will not only have women without number, you'll have worlds without number, you'll have children without number for all eternity. And this is for sure sealed now on Joseph's head. As long as he doesn't commit murder, everything is given to him to be a king over his own world.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] I mean, it's kind of. It's almost comical and sort of. You could say it's out of the narcissistic playbook, because you could. You could could argue that this entire section is being created because Joseph's in trouble, because Joseph is, like, messed up. He's. He's married 22 women. He committed adultery with an Alger. Now he's married 22 women without Emma's knowledge or permission. He's lied about it, he's hid it, and now he's granting himself powers, worlds without end, and thrones next to Jesus. Like, that's.

Jenn Kamp [00:41:02] And destroying her.

Sandra Tanner [00:41:04] Yeah, and destroying all the women that

Jenn Kamp [00:41:06] disobey him and destroying all the women.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] I mean, that's a really interesting way to sort of say, I'm sorry, I'm kind of goofed up here, you know?

Jenn Kamp [00:41:14] Oh, my gosh. That's why I'm always like, bless her heart. Like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Yeah. Because it's not this humble. I'm sorry. It's like I'm more powerful than you ever would have imagined, you know?

Sandra Tanner [00:41:27] Well, and it's. It's not too long after this that. That he has himself ordained as a king.

John Dehlin [00:41:36] King. King of the earth. A king of the world.

Sandra Tanner [00:41:38] The kingdom of God on Earth or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:41:40] Council of 50, right?

Sandra Tanner [00:41:40] Yeah, the council 50 stuff. So he really is ramping up the narcissistic element of his own view of himself. I don't know how you get it much higher than what he lays out here.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:58] Yeah, yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:42:00] But the Mormons want to say today, oh, no, we don't say that you get your own planet. We aren't saying you get to be a God. Well, everyone before, what, 1960 all knew that they were going to get to be gods and have planets.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:15] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:42:16] They tone it down now.

John Dehlin [00:42:18] We're gonna add something, Jen.

Jenn Kamp [00:42:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] Okay. All right. So he's going to be on the throne next to God, Jesus and Abraham. That's verse 49. As a king. King. Okay. 50. Behold, I have seen your sacrifices. So he's talking to Joseph now. Joseph's kind of the. He's the martyr. He's the martyr here. Joseph has been making sacrifices.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:42] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] So behold, I've seen your sacrifices and will. Will forgive all your sins.

Sandra Tanner [00:42:49] I think that's an interesting combination. Okay. If he's doing sacrifices, it would imply he's doing everything to please God and then he'll forgive him his sins. You know, it's like, well, how much do each of these factor in? How many sins and how much obedience? It's a little confusing.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:13] Something I'm thinking, because this word sacrifices, I mean, that's definitely. I don't think it's what's talking about here, but it just reminded me of this argument that Katie Hallberg was making and. And Hank Smith, that Joseph, it was so hard for him to take all these women and that the angel had to come, you know, because he was so reluctant to practice it. But then the language in doctrine and Covenants 132 makes it sound like, oh, Joseph, if you want women, you can have them. That's the language on. He's like, who? Whatever you should, you shall take. I'll like on Earth, whatever Women, you want to take your glory.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Right, Right. It's all like a glory thing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:43:56] So it's like a very different language. Like, God is not commanding Joseph to take women. God is saying you. You know, like, he's not.

Sandra Tanner [00:44:04] He's giving permission. You can. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:06] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] If you want it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:08] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:09] It doesn't. It doesn't.

Sandra Tanner [00:44:10] It's.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:10] It. Yeah. It just.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:44:13] The revelation doesn't come across as a threat to St. Joseph that you have to live this or be destroyed.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:20] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [00:44:21] And yet that's the way he paints it to these women, that, oh, God's going to destroy me if I don't go into this.

Gerardo Sumano [00:44:27] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] But shouldn't. Shouldn't it be forbidden to claim as a prophet that Jesus is telling you your sins are forgiven? Like, that's a lot of power, you know, like in the United States, the executive, the commander in chief, you know, he's. He commands the military, but Congress, you know, gets to. Gets, you know, to raise the money for the military. Like, you don't want all the power in one person. And here we've got God, we've got the prophets saying that Jesus is saying to the prophet, all your sins are forgiven you. Isn't that kind of too, like a conflict of interest a little bit in Revelation?

Sandra Tanner [00:45:05] Yes.

Jenn Kamp [00:45:06] And it's after the verses that already told him that he can forgive himself self.

John Dehlin [00:45:11] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:45:11] Because he's the same as Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:45:14] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:45:15] So I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] Yeah, Yeah. I just don't think it's for those who are. Let's see. There's two options here. Either, you know, wait a minute. We just. Oh, sorry. Okay. Sorry about that, everybody. So either you kind of have two options. Either God and Jesus just decided 22 wives in that this revelation needed to be given. And this is literally Jesus telling Joseph all the things that Jesus cares most about.

John Dehlin [00:45:51] Or this is Joseph trying to justify something bad that he did to Emma and to force her to get in line, which is, you know, throughout this whole DNC 132, the. Those are kind of your two options. And when. When the prophet is saying that Jesus is saying that the prophet needs to be forgiven for all his sins, to me, that's kind of a red flag. Like, which is more likely that Jesus just happens to be forgiving the prophet for all his sins, or the prophet is just saying, hey, I'm forgiven for all my bad things, and now you got to step in line. What do you think?

Jenn Kamp [00:46:27] I'm just getting so angry. There's like a fire burning in me. Today, like, I just get more angry and more angry as I read. As we read these.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:39] Yeah. We should power through this because we're.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] We.

Sandra Tanner [00:46:41] We have.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] We haven't even gotten. Okay, all right, sorry. I did think that these are all. I do think we're making important points. All right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:48] Yeah, for sure.

The Commandment to Emma and the Handmaid Verses

John Dehlin [00:46:49] Okay. So God has seen. So Jesus has seen the sacrifices. I've seen your sacrifices in obedience to that which I have told you. Go, therefore, and I make a way for your escape. As I accepted the offering of Abraham of his son Isaac. What?

Sandra Tanner [00:47:05] What? Well, that's again, misusing that whole story, because with Abraham and Isaac, the way of escape meant that Isaac didn't have to go through with it.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] Right.

Sandra Tanner [00:47:17] But in Joseph's case, he gets to go through with it. He's going to go ahead and take all the wives. It's not like, oh, God told me I had to take the wives, so I took one. God says, okay, that's enough. You proved yourself obedient. His obedience lets him take all he wants. So it isn't the same meaning for the

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:42] sacrifice.

Sandra Tanner [00:47:43] The sacrifice? Yeah, that was in that other verse. God has seen his sacrifice. What sacrifice was he making? Yeah, I mean, he's running the show everywhere he goes. And God tells everybody they got to give him a house and all their

John Dehlin [00:48:02] property, their money, their obedience. He's the commander of the legion. He's prophet. He's. Yeah, so he gets to forgive sins, like Jesus.

Sandra Tanner [00:48:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:13] He's sacrificing so much. I mean, he does die, but.

Sandra Tanner [00:48:16] Well, yeah, but he hasn't yet. God's already seen a sacrifice. Let's just try and figure out what ones we were making here.

John Dehlin [00:48:23] Yeah. When you're king of the world, what are your sacrifices? Exactly. Right. Yeah. Okay. Verse 51. Verily, I say unto you a commandment I have given unto mine handmaid. Emma Smith, what is a handmaid? Like, I'm thinking of like a handmaid's tale.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:38] Like, why. Why is the woman being called a handmaid? The wife, like the first wife. What does handmade mean?

Sandra Tanner [00:48:44] Yeah, it's like a servant, right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:47] Like, I'm thinking of Mark. Is it Margaret Atwood who did. Who did a handmaid's tale? Like what?

Jenn Kamp [00:48:53] A female. A female servant. That's what the definition.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:56] But isn't that the word that is used on the Bible for you? I said Ager. What's her name? Like Sarah Hagar. Yeah, so.

Jenn Kamp [00:49:08] So she's a female servant.

Sandra Tanner [00:49:11] Concubine, female servant.

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:12] Because that's where that word comes from on the Handmaid's Tale, the word handmade comes from the Abraham's Tale and how Sarah gives the handmaid eager to Abraham so she can have. So he can have kids.

John Dehlin [00:49:25] So, Mormon Jesus, why are you calling Emma a handmaid? Yeah, like a servant Jen, you don't like that word?

Jenn Kamp [00:49:34] No, I'm like, physically biting my lips.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] Okay, Handmade Emma. So a commandment. So. So Jesus is going to now give a commandment to servant Emma, your wife, who. And then Jesus says, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her. For I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand by covenant and sacrifice. So what. What is Jesus saying here? Or what is Joseph saying here about Emma and partaking not of that which Joseph was commanded to offer her? Do you know?

Sandra Tanner [00:50:25] Now he's changing the Abrahamic story again, because in Emma's case, Joseph's offering her something, and maybe it looked like she was going to take it. So God said, that's enough. You've proved yourself. Just like with Abraham and Isaac, you don't have to go through with the sacrifice, but with Joseph, when they use the Abraham Isaac story, Joseph gets to go through with whatever it was. Because if he's. If God's testing him by saying you could take all these women, and that's the test, he didn't then get told he doesn't have to take them.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] Yeah, he.

Sandra Tanner [00:51:01] He goes ahead and takes them then. So he switched how he's using the story from Emma to Joseph.

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:08] Why is. Why is Jesus saying, I've given to you like I've give. I've given Emma to you? If Joseph eloped, like, Joseph went and grabbed Emma, took her away from her home, and you know, when she got. When he got married to her. So when. When Jesus in this whole revelation is talking about, I'm. I'm giving you women, it's really saying you're Joseph, you know, like, it's just weird. Why is God saying, I gave you Emma?

John Dehlin [00:51:41] Yeah. When Joseph. When they married before the church was even founded.

Sandra Tanner [00:51:44] Before.

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:44] Yeah. And they loved and he went, yeah, took her.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] I want to get really back to one point. Oh, Jen, were you gonna say something?

Jenn Kamp [00:51:51] I just am trying to figure out, like, let's see. Stay her. She's. She stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her. Okay, is that talking about William Law?

John Dehlin [00:52:06] Exactly.

Jenn Kamp [00:52:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:52:08] That's What I was gonna ask. So, Sandra. Okay, so my memory is Grant Palmer was the first that kind of called my attention to this Grant Palmer. According to what I remember about Grant Palmer, he wrote at some point that Emma was getting mad about all the wives that Joseph Smith was taking, and she had a crush on William Law, who was in the first presidency by this point, the guy that ends up coming out with the Nauvoo Expositor and exposing all this polygamy. So what Grant Palmer claimed was that Joseph offered Emma William Law so that she could have a little piece on the side, since he was getting so many pieces on the side.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] So there. There are some commenters as well. Matthew Allen is commenting in addition to you, Jen. Is that what's going on here? Where basically Joseph is saying, okay, Emma, Joseph, I told Joseph to give you William Law, but that was kind of this Abrahamic test, and now I'm pulling it back, and you don't have to go through with the sacrifice of taking on an extra husband.

Sandra Tanner [00:53:09] Yes. I. I don't know how else you make sense of this section unless it's that kind of a scenario, but to me, it just shows that Joseph. It's like the power of the king. The king has the power to take all the women he wants, but the queen doesn't have the right to take all the men she wants. And once Joseph was faced with the thought Emma might really go sleep with somebody else, he can't handle it. So he has to say, oh, God said, no, you passed your test, so you don't need to go through with that one now.

John Dehlin [00:53:45] And that. That whole William Law, Emma thing, do you. Does your memory sort of validate that? There was probably something to that.

Sandra Tanner [00:53:53] Yeah. I kind of had the feeling that with all this ruckus that was going on for several years there about whether or not Joseph's living polygamy, all the rumors, newspaper exposes, all these things going on, and Emma evidently worried about which woman or girl Joseph might be trying to get to marry him or something that she found a shoulder to cry on in a sense, with William Law, that he evidently was a sympathetic figure for her to have someone to turn to, to talk about these things. So Joseph sees this affinity there and, oh, well, you know, God said, if you let me have mine, I can let you have William thinking that she would find that an attractive solution for her. But then he can't go through with it, so he has to tell her, nope, you passed the test. So now you don't get him.

John Dehlin [00:54:52] Yeah. And so Again, this is Joseph doing this power grab of like, you know, and we're going to see it in the next verse. I'll just read it verse 52. And let mine handmaid again, servant Emma Smith, servant to Joseph, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph and who are virtuous and pure before me. And those who are not pure and have said they were pure shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God. So, so the first part of that is basically here, Joseph's in trouble. He's trying to justify the bad things he's done.

John Dehlin [00:55:26] He's offered William Law to Emma. And now when he has this chance to kind of make all things right, he's not only pulling back William Law from Emma and saying, okay, just kidding. Jesus says, you don't get William Law anymore and you have to be okay with all of the 22 wives that Joseph took before you. And he'll take a bunch more. And you, Emma, just have to like that and be okay with it. And Emma gets stuck with nothing. Like, that's a really interesting way to say I'm sorry for betraying you. Right, right.

Excusing Joseph's Plural Marriages in Scripture

Sandra Tanner [00:55:59] But I think the second half of this is the real kicker that he's trying to excuse. Evidently some of the women that he had marriages, affairs, whatever you want to call. I assume people in the community must have known some of those women were not virtuous because he's trying to tell Emma, okay, you don't have to accept the ones that said they were pure that weren't because there's all this virgin talk.

John Dehlin [00:56:29] Right. Like you're only supposed to take on virgins.

Sandra Tanner [00:56:31] Yeah, yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:56:32] But that Joseph may be sleeping with women that weren't virgins.

Sandra Tanner [00:56:35] Well, yeah. Why else would you put this, exclude this exclusive policy statement in here that, well, if they said they were righteous and not. You don't have to accept those ones. Okay. Doesn't mean he's not.

John Dehlin [00:56:47] And they'll be destroyed, by the way.

Sandra Tanner [00:56:49] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:50] So if Joseph slept with women who claimed they were virtuous, but they weren't, I, Jesus, I'm going to destroy those women. Right. And Emma, you shouldn't be mad that Joseph slept with those unvirtuous women because they lied to Joseph and said they were virtuous when they weren't. Is that what it's saying?

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:08] That's what he's saying.

Jenn Kamp [00:57:09] But then he married women that were married.

John Dehlin [00:57:12] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:57:12] Like they're not virgins.

John Dehlin [00:57:14] Yeah, right.

Jenn Kamp [00:57:16] It's.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] But also, like this is whole. Oh, God's gonna Destroy the women. You know what I mean? God's really. When's he ever destroying the men? He's always destroying the women. What is that about? Sandra? Sandra, why is Jesus so down on women? And why is Mormon Jesus so down on women? I just.

Sandra Tanner [00:57:32] Because narcissistic man started it all.

Jenn Kamp [00:57:37] How did, How. I just like, how did I not see any of this?

John Dehlin [00:57:41] I don't think we read it.

Gerardo Sumano [00:57:42] We don't read it. Like, I mean, Kate Albrook.

Jenn Kamp [00:57:45] I've read everything. Like, I've read the Book of Mormon cover to cover.

John Dehlin [00:57:50] Like dnc, right?

Jenn Kamp [00:57:52] Yeah, no, like the whole book. Like everything.

John Dehlin [00:57:55] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:57:56] Like, yeah. It just sometimes gets so angry at myself too, because I'm. I'm smart. Like, I am a smart woman. I am a smart woman. I just don't understand how I was.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:09] I don't think. I think if, if you don't know what's going on in the background, you know the type. What, Jo. Who Joseph was marrying, who he was not and all that stuff. It's hard to put this into context if you don't do. If you don't know the background story.

Sandra Tanner [00:58:23] Right. Like with the William Law part.

Jenn Kamp [00:58:26] That's true.

Sandra Tanner [00:58:26] Just reading this, you would have no clue. You would think, what in the world is this about? It wouldn't make any sense to you.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:31] Yeah, exact.

Sandra Tanner [00:58:33] Until you find out, ah, there's more to the story.

John Dehlin [00:58:35] Yeah, yeah. And that's again, like, you can think about so many issues today that, that God could have spent. And John Larsen made this point. There's so many important issues God could have weighed in here because we really haven't had any significant revelations after Joseph Smith died. Other. Other than to roll back things like polygamy. Right. Or. Or blacks in the priesthood.

Sandra Tanner [00:58:59] Right.

John Dehlin [00:58:59] Priesthood ban. So God's got this precious real estate of scripture that he's going to be revealing and it's all this sexual shenanigans between Joseph and women in the community and William Law and Emma. That's what Joe, that's what God really wants to spend, you know, his flaming

Jenn Kamp [00:59:16] sword and the angel on.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] Yeah, that's. That's what God's really caring about. You know, not, you know, other issues. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:25] I mean, probably an apologetic point that I just thought about is like, without this section, there's not a revelation anywhere else about eternal families and the power of ceiling to. To seal.

Jenn Kamp [00:59:36] That's why they have to keep it in.

Gerardo Sumano [00:59:38] Yeah, I think, exactly.

Jenn Kamp [00:59:39] Yeah. That's the only reason I think they would otherwise have already changed it.

John Dehlin [00:59:44] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:59:44] That's my guess at least.

John Dehlin [00:59:47] And again, really, verse 52 is. Is Joseph justifying the fact that he married 22 women without Emma's permission? Isn't it? I mean, is that what it's about?

Sandra Tanner [00:59:59] And. And evidently a few of them she would have known that were not virtuous.

John Dehlin [01:00:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So again, what's the likelihood that. That Jesus really is saying, hey, Joseph, those 22 women you lied about, you know, they're fine. Emma, you need to forgive Joseph and allow that versus Joseph just trying to cover his tracks.

Gerardo Sumano [01:00:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:24] Claiming a revelation that never really happened. What's more likely?

Jenn Kamp [01:00:27] Yeah, well, and we already know he did try and cover his track by sealing to the sisters twice. So Emma could be there. Like, we already see that pattern of him doing that now.

John Dehlin [01:00:39] Like, Sandra, why didn't you speak for Jesus? Sandra, why didn't. Why didn't Jesus just give. Give this revelation at the beginning, like in 1835? Why didn't Jesus just give this revelation to Joseph in 1833?

Sandra Tanner [01:00:52] Well, he did. They tell us that the. In the footnotes for this stuff. They say God revealed this all to him back in 1831.

John Dehlin [01:01:04] Right.

Sandra Tanner [01:01:04] Because they realize it's too late, that it doesn't make sense to give this after two dozen women.

Jenn Kamp [01:01:11] But then that doesn't make sense that he's saying all this to Emma. Yeah, it didn't happen yet.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:17] Yeah, right.

Jenn Kamp [01:01:18] If you got the revelation back then, it hadn't happened yet.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] Like, you know, how many times do we read earlier in this section that God's not a God of confusion, that God's house is a house of order? Right? Freaking God. Why didn't you reveal DNC132 in 1831?

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:34] Everything Emma's learning. It sounds like Emma's learning about this whole thing for the first time. Like God is talking to Emma like she'd never heard about it.

John Dehlin [01:01:45] Yeah. Yep. Okay. All right. So much here.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:50] I think next one is 53.

John Dehlin [01:01:52] Yeah, 53.

Gerardo Sumano [01:01:52] For I, on this one, God is talking to Emma.

John Dehlin [01:01:55] Okay. For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice. Emma. And I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things. For he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth, I will strengthen him. How many times does God need to tell Emma that Joseph has all power and authority?

Sandra Tanner [01:02:18] Well, it's evidently quite a bit, because she's not getting the point.

John Dehlin [01:02:23] It's just like every other verse. God is saying Joseph is the most powerful being ever to see you know.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:30] All right. Okay. 54. And I command mine handmaid servant, Emma Smith, again servant to Joseph, to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph. Keywords here and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment, she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord, For I am the Lord thy God and will destroy her if she abide not in my law. So Joseph gets to have sex with as many women as he wants. If Emma has sex with any other man, she'll be destroyed. She's destroyed.

Sandra Tanner [01:03:07] Yeah. I don't know how many times God has to keep telling her she's going to be destroyed.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:11] Why are the women who are in polyandrous relationships not being destroyed? Because they're.

John Dehlin [01:03:16] Why?

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:17] I don't know. That's like, why is this threat being done to Emma but not to, you know, all, like, the 12, 13 women that were already married to other men?

John Dehlin [01:03:28] Because I think Brian Hales and everyone else in the church would. Would say that the polyandrous wives of Joseph Smith were probably still sleeping with their actual husbands.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:39] Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:41] And so are they. Are they being destroyed? There's no exceptions for the polyandrus relationships here, Correct.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:49] Yeah. And again, like. Like Jesus is saying to Emma, accept polygamy or I will destroy you.

Sandra Tanner [01:03:58] Well, yes.

John Dehlin [01:03:58] How does that jive with the Jesus you believe in, Sandra?

Sandra Tanner [01:04:03] Well, that's not the way he treated the woman caught in adultery. I mean, the picture of the New Testament of Christ in the Gospels is not this condemning God who's threatening every other verse to destroy you if you don't obey something that she would feel was immoral. I mean, this is. You're being threatened about not participating in an immoral, illegal act.

John Dehlin [01:04:33] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:35] Well, think about this. Think about what these verses mean to all the women in the church today. What is going to happen.

John Dehlin [01:04:44] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:44] To the ones that died before their husbands, who. Their husbands reseal themselves to other women for eternity. What does it mean for, you know, like, in heaven for. For women who, like, is God gonna be threatening them? You know, why would he threaten Emma and not threaten you as a woman in the church later in heaven, to enter into polygamy there? I know this. There's this whole rhetoric about, oh, but there's agency. And, like, women, you shouldn't worry about what's going to happen in heaven because there's agency. But this is on the scriptures. Like, what. Emma shouldn't be the exception here. Like, this is. Should be. Be applied to all the women in the church later or.

John Dehlin [01:05:36] Yeah. Or not at all. Like, yeah, Mormons believe in free agency. Why is Emma being told except Joseph's 30 plus women or I will destroy you. Shouldn't Emma be able to have something to say about that? But then, but then the second thing is, why is Emma destroyed if she doesn't practice polygamy like you said, Gerardo. But modern Mormon women are being told, if you don't want to enter into polygamy, you won't have to. That's what, that's what Mormon women are being told today. So why do modern Mormon women have polygamy as optional, but for Emma, she would not only was it not optional, she would be destroyed if she didn't practice it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:13] Right, right, right, right.

Sandra Tanner [01:06:15] It's a different rule, but it's a

John Dehlin [01:06:17] heinous, like, what type of God is that? Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:20] To me.

Sandra Tanner [01:06:21] Well, it's Joseph's God.

John Dehlin [01:06:23] Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:25] To me this is exactly, this is Joseph's God. And today's God that the church has created has nothing to do with the God that Joseph was envisioning.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] Yeah, yeah. It's like Joseph can have sex with as many women as he wants. Emma, you, you can't have sex with anybody but Joseph. And if you don't accept all the women that Joseph's going to take on, I will destroy you, says Jesus.

Sandra Tanner [01:06:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:47] This is awful. Yeah, this is awful. Is it not awful?

Sandra Tanner [01:06:50] Yes, it is.

John Dehlin [01:06:52] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [01:06:52] Well. And, and you think about all the women that felt the weight of that on their shoulders in trying to weigh out and act that all their senses told them was wrong, was immoral, was not Christian. And they have to weigh that against Joseph's God telling them it doesn't matter what I've said in the past, I'm telling you now, you have to accept this or be destroyed. I mean, that's a big hefty choice they've got to make on whether to accept this polygamy. Because you're accepting a God that operates this way, then.

John Dehlin [01:07:34] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [01:07:35] That just condemns you right and left for stuff that your husband doesn't get condemned for.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:41] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:07:42] And then they wonder why a 14 year old felt coerced into marrying 37 year old man.

Gerardo Sumano [01:07:50] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:07:51] Like when, when they're being taught or when, you know, the men are speaking this way and that Joseph is basically God and he has the chance to either save their family or condemn and curse their family forever. And then you're. Yeah, there's no, there's no.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:14] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:08:15] Choice there, there's no like for a young child. Like, it's just. Yeah. It I'm just angry.

Sandra Tanner [01:08:25] Yes. It's not agency.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:27] Yeah, exactly. And I'm beating a dead horse here. But I really want to drive this point home, which is women in the church. If you're still in the church believing, why do you think you're gonna get special treatment in. In heaven when Emma didn't get that? Like, why would you, as a women in the church today get something that Emma didn't get, which was the choice to live polygamy. Why are you over Emma? Why are you above Emma?

John Dehlin [01:09:01] And we know that Russell M. Nelson, current prophet, has two his sealed to two women in heaven. And Dallin H. Oaks, first counselor in the first presidency of the Mormon Church, is sealed to two women. Why isn't polygamy the. The destiny of all Mormon women way?

Sandra Tanner [01:09:17] Right. And it. They don't stop to think about it that because they'll say to me in the bookstore at times that, well, God won't force us to live polygamy if we don't want to. And like Geraldo was saying, well, then why did Emma have to live it? Why couldn't she say, it's my agency and I choose not to participate in that?

John Dehlin [01:09:39] Yep.

Sandra Tanner [01:09:40] And yet according to Mormonism, top two guys in the church are going to live polygamy. It is not a dead doctrine. It is a very current thing. If you really believe Mormonism, you would really need to think this through, that this is the promise of the Mormon God. I've got to either accept this or I'm not believing that God. And I feel bad for all these women through the centuries that have been forced to choose the Mormon God over their own conscience.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] Yeah. Couple good comments coming in faith. Well, several, but I'll read a few faith. Mary Pir writes, I grew up in the UAB polygamous cult United Apostolic Brethren. Is that UAB and section 132 was talked about over the pulpit often. Emma was endlessly bashed and made to be an example of a bad plural wife. So DNC32 in a polygamous cult was often used to keep the current women in check. In line. In check. Is that right?

Sandra Tanner [01:10:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] And then the. The wonderful Maven. Hey, Maven. She writes, I've learned agency in the church is always quote agency to accept what God says or not, as in polygamy. The women today don't know. The choice is literally the same.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:07] Thanks, Maven. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:11:10] And David A. Bedner, A. Bedner teaches a lot about this in the church today. That members in the church do not really have Agency, because they already decided, as soon as they got baptized into the church, they decided to do whatever it's commanded of them by their leaders, by the prophet and. And by God. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:35] Yeah. All right, let's see. And we, we. We just got an amazing, super chat from Bryce Jones. So we just want to shout out and thank Bryce Jones and everyone who is donating to support this. We really, we really do appreciate it. Okay, what verse are we on?

Sandra Tanner [01:11:56] 55.

John Dehlin [01:11:57] 55. But if she, Emma, will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said, and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto Joseph him and hundredfold in this world of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children and crowns of eternal lives in the eternal worlds. So not just a crown, but crowns Joseph's going to get. Wives, children, houses, lands, sisters and brothers, fathers and mothers. Sandra, what is, what is Joseph saying here? That Jesus is.

Sandra Tanner [01:12:42] Well, it's kind of crazy because he's saying, okay, if she, she doesn't accept polygamy. So you think that, okay, what's it going to do? Condemn her again or is it going to give her something good? If she doesn't accept it, then Joseph is supposed to do everything for her. Okay, that sounds good. All right, Emma's getting a break here. Everything for her, even as he said, and I will bless him and multiply him and give him wives. And I'm thinking, well, wait a minute, we just took a U turn on this. It started to out sound like, oh, okay, something nice gonna happen, right? No, no, Joe, because. Because that's the way it went. Joseph is going to give all this stuff from God, including all the wives he wants and children and eternal lives, plural. That means bazillion kids from whatever number of wives he wants to take.

John Dehlin [01:13:38] So, I mean, it almost sounds like God's saying, emma, I'm already giving Joseph a bunch of wives. But if you don't accept it, I'm going to give him wives and children and crowns and eternal lives forever and ever. Like a hundredfold. It's like I'm even give him more wives. Either allow him to have the wives that I'm going to give him now, or I'm going to give him even more wives later.

Sandra Tanner [01:14:01] Right? Yes. Where's the agency in this?

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:05] This is so sad. When you consider the children that Emma had lost, it is so sad, right?

Jenn Kamp [01:14:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:13] What do you mean, Herodo?

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:14] Because we know that she had several children who died.

John Dehlin [01:14:18] Yeah. And.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:20] And Joseph is here saying, well, if you don't accept this, then God is going to give me a bunch of children. Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:14:29] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [01:14:30] Yeah. Wives and children from others in the

Jenn Kamp [01:14:33] community, houses and lands. Probably everything that her little heart has desired for the last how many years of being by his side and building up this church with him, and then in one swoop, he's just going to, like, take everything that's dear and to her heart and that she's wanted forever.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:53] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:14:54] And just, like, smack her with it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:14:57] Yeah, that's.

Jenn Kamp [01:14:59] That is like a monster.

Sandra Tanner [01:15:01] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:15:02] To be honest, that's so sad.

Sandra Tanner [01:15:05] You just wonder at this point, how is Emma feeling hearing this read to her? I just. I can't imagine.

John Dehlin [01:15:13] And Joseph doesn't have the gall to read it himself.

Sandra Tanner [01:15:15] No, no, that's right.

Jenn Kamp [01:15:17] No wonder he sent Hy. Was it Hyram? He sends Hyram.

John Dehlin [01:15:20] He sends. He sends Hyram. Yes.

Sandra Tanner [01:15:23] And Hyrum says, I never received such a severe talking to as he did when he took that to Emma. So we know when she's hearing all this, it's not going down well because she's getting madder and madder. Evidently.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] And can I just say, one crown isn't enough. He gets crowns and eternal lives.

Jenn Kamp [01:15:44] Why?

Sandra Tanner [01:15:45] It says eternal lives. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:48] Crowns and thrones and lives and women and men and children and parents and worlds.

Sandra Tanner [01:15:53] Oh, again, it points to this power trip he's on. It's not enough to be God. He's got to be super God.

John Dehlin [01:16:07] And this is Jesus who's saying all this is. I think we're laughing, Jen. And then you always bring it back down.

Jenn Kamp [01:16:16] Yeah. And then I'm over here crying. It's. Yeah, it's so. It's sad.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] It's almost like Thanos. It's like Thanos, Jesus, you know.

Jenn Kamp [01:16:26] Yeah. I feel. That's what I feel like. I'm, like, angry. It's like I'm going through my whole faith crisis in, like a couple hours here. You're, like, angry and then mad, and then you cry and then you're. You're like, why did I believe this? And it's just this circle that you go in for a little while. Oh, it's just so.

Forgiveness Verses and Repeating Themes

John Dehlin [01:16:47] Okay, verse. We're making good progress here. Verse 56. And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid or servant, forget my servant Joseph. Okay. At least Joseph's a servant. Okay. We're throwing a bone. So I guess Joseph's a servant to God, but Emma's a servant to Joseph. So anyway, forgive My servant Joseph his trespasses. Okay, so now Emma's got to forgive Joseph his trespasses. And then shall she be forgiven her trespasses wherein she has trespassed against me and. And I, the Lord thy God will bless her and multiply her and make her heart rejoice. So what's going on here, Sandra?

Sandra Tanner [01:17:27] Well, I think this is the second time that she's told she's got to forgive Joseph his trespasses and then she'll be forgiven. I mean, wow, 22 wives later, if she'll forgive him for all of this. I mean, when you think about it, going behind her back, I mean like once a month or twice a month, whatever it is, that he's going off and taking a new wife and just racking up the numbers there in Nauvoo, and she's got to forgive all of this, all this duplicity. I mean, people just can't imagine what this means. Joseph's supposed to be a busy guy, running a church, running a city, and yet he's got time to take a wife every month.

Sandra Tanner [01:18:22] That has to be affecting Emma. The time he's away from home with her wondering, is he off getting another wife? What's he doing? But she's got to forgive. If she wants forgiveness, she has to forgive him. And there is no comparison between of what Joseph's doing and betraying her to her burning the dinner or something. I mean, what's the big sins she's supposed to have done?

John Dehlin [01:18:49] Yeah, what did Emma do again? That's the narcissistic playbook. It's blame reversal. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:55] Like Joseph has done all these horrible things to Emma and now, now Emma all of a sudden has sins. What are emersons have anything to do with section 132?

Sandra Tanner [01:19:06] Right.

Jenn Kamp [01:19:06] Can someone tell me he sold himself to 22 women before he told her and all of a sudden, like she has since? Yeah, like really?

John Dehlin [01:19:21] Oh, yeah. And again, Mormon Jesus. There's a conflict of interest for Mormon Jesus to be allegedly telling Joseph to tell Emma that Emma needs to forgive Joseph and that's the only way Emma's going to get her sins forgiven. You should know, Mormon Jesus, that you shouldn't be telling Joseph to tell Emma this because that's too conveniently serving to Joseph. It's too self serving.

Sandra Tanner [01:19:49] Which is why you have your brother go do it, because you know it won't go down good if you do.

Gerardo Sumano [01:19:56] But this idea of leaders forgiving sins, I mean, it still carries on today.

John Dehlin [01:20:02] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:02] Isn't that why you go to Your bishop to confess, and then he tells you if you've been forgiven. He tells you, wait, how many months? You can't go without sacrament and then

John Dehlin [01:20:12] can't go have the temple recommend and

Gerardo Sumano [01:20:15] have to meet with him again to see if God has finally forgiven you and so you can get back into fellowship.

John Dehlin [01:20:21] Yeah, that's Santa. You know, people ask me if I'm ever going to believe again. I will never believe that any human on the earth has the right to decide whether I'm forgiven by God. Is that fair?

Sandra Tanner [01:20:32] Right.

John Dehlin [01:20:33] Do you believe that any human on earth has the right to tell you whether or not God's forgiven you or Jesus has forgiven you?

Sandra Tanner [01:20:40] Well, I think you should know whether he has. I mean, it's between you and God.

John Dehlin [01:20:45] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [01:20:46] And we've seen too many people pass judgment on people where they have no knowledge really of the person at all. So we've all been burned by those that have felt they could put judgment on us. And so we resonate with the problem for poor Emma of the kind of double bind that she's put in with this.

John Dehlin [01:21:09] Yeah, yeah. It's just. Yeah, it's. This is so coercive and insulting to Emma, and it just really is narcissistic. All right, 57. And again, I say, let not my servant Joseph put his property out of his hands, lest an enemy come and destroy him. For Satan seeketh to destroy, for I am the Lord thy God, and he is my servant. And behold, and lo, I am with him as I was with Abraham, thy father, even unto his exaltation and glory. What. What property is being discussed here that shouldn't be put out of Joseph's hands?

Sandra Tanner [01:21:52] Since it appears in the polygamy revelation.

John Dehlin [01:21:56] Right.

Sandra Tanner [01:21:58] If we say it has some context to what we've been discussing, I would think it means. Emma, I can't give up the 22 I got before I asked you about it because God's already given them to me.

John Dehlin [01:22:13] But here it's literally calling the women property.

Sandra Tanner [01:22:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:22:16] Like, that's kind of explicit, right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:18] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:20] And that. That somehow if Joseph gives up his plural wives, Satan is gonna destroy his property.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:27] So now.

Sandra Tanner [01:22:28] Well, that happened. There you are.

Gerardo Sumano [01:22:31] Isn't that interesting? Like, for Emma, God destroys Emma, but then for Joseph, if he leaves his wife, Satan is gonna come and destroy him.

John Dehlin [01:22:43] Yeah. So if Emma doesn't let Joseph practice polygamy, she'll be destroyed. If Joseph has to stop practicing polygamy, he'll be destroyed by Satan. Yeah, yeah. Satan's got a lot of power. Yeah. Here Anything else about. About this verse that's so awful and.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:06] Yeah, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:23:07] All right, 58. Now, as touching the law of the priesthood, there are many things pertaining there too. Thereunto. Okay, 59. So this is some important stuff. God. This is kind of God, you know God and Jesus are finishing up this section, right?

Sandra Tanner [01:23:23] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:23:24] He's summing up the. I mean, this is what, the new and everlasting covenant, right?

Sandra Tanner [01:23:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] So this is the new, new and everlasting covenant. That's how it begins. Now we're summarizing the new and everlasting covenant. So pay attention, everyone. Jesus wants to summarize. Here it is, verse 59. Verily, if a man be called of my Father, as was Aaron, by my known voice and by the voice of him that sent me, and I have endowed him with the keys of the power of this priesthood, if he do anything in my name and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin and I will justify him. Oh, my goodness. What is being said here, everyone? Like, if it hasn't been made clear before in the 58 verses before, what is Jesus reiterating here, Sandra?

Sandra Tanner [01:24:15] Well, he's got all the power.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:19] Doesn't matter what he does.

John Dehlin [01:24:21] It's saying if he, Joseph, do anything in my name and according to my law and by my word, he will not commit sin and I will justify him. Well, it's basically saying Joseph could do whatever he wants, is it not?

Sandra Tanner [01:24:33] I wonder why it's there. Why?

John Dehlin [01:24:37] Yeah, it's like Joseph can do whatever he wants.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:40] If he claims it's from God, it's. It's not a sin by definition. It's not a sin. And it's righteous. If Joseph says it's of God.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:49] Did I read that wrong?

Sandra Tanner [01:24:51] Yeah, it seems like it's another power trip.

John Dehlin [01:24:55] Yeah, that's like. He's impervious. Joseph is literally can't sin at this point. Joseph can't sin. Is that not what it's saying?

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:02] Yeah, well, if. If you take into account what the happiness letter says, you know, that Joseph gets to dictate what. Even things that look bad or would be bad in some context all of a sudden are good in other contexts. And Joseph is the one that gets to decide what's good, then. Yeah, he can't. He can't do anything that's wrong.

John Dehlin [01:25:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joseph cannot sin, Jose. Joseph is transcended sin. If Joseph does it, it's. God loves it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:34] Yeah, right.

Sandra Tanner [01:25:35] Well, if Joseph does it, then it's Just then it is God's will. Whatever he does is God's will.

Gerardo Sumano [01:25:43] Right?

John Dehlin [01:25:45] Yeah. Yeah. Such a power grab. All right. Verse 60. Let no one therefore set on my servant Joseph, for I will justify him, for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God. Again, Jen, what is this thing?

Jenn Kamp [01:26:07] The same thing over and over again.

John Dehlin [01:26:10] But it's interesting. No one can criticize Joseph, right?

Jenn Kamp [01:26:13] Yeah, yeah, he. Well, he. Yeah, he's basically saying he's Jesus because even if he.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:20] So anything he does is good, but even if it is bad, I'm gonna forgive him anyway. Right.

John Dehlin [01:26:29] And no one should criticize it. Right?

Jenn Kamp [01:26:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:31] Like, it's literally saying, let no one set on my servant Joseph. What does that mean, set on?

Sandra Tanner [01:26:38] Nobody attack him on this. And I think this is aimed at Emma.

Gerardo Sumano [01:26:42] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [01:26:42] You know, quit haranguing him about all of this. It's all from God. And that's his sacrifice, is to take all of these two dozen women and that God required from him. And so don't worry about it, Emma. It's all good.

John Dehlin [01:27:03] Yeah. And then here. Here, for me, in verse 61, this is one of the worst verses of the whole. And that's saying a lot, right? This is one of the worst verses, most explicit and worst verses for me of D and C, 132, verse 61. And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood, if any man espouse a virgin and desire to espouse another, so again, it's the desire. Right. And the first give her consent. And if he espoused the second, and they are virgins, and. And have vowed to no other man, then is he justified. He cannot commit adultery, for they are given unto him. For he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else. There's so much wrong with that verse. Does anyone want to enumerate.

Consent, Deception, and the Number of Wives

Sandra Tanner [01:27:56] Well, right at the start, when he says if. Okay. If a guy marries the first virgin, and then he decides to take another one, the first one gives her consent.

John Dehlin [01:28:07] Wait, first off, Sandra, does the guy have to be a virgin?

Sandra Tanner [01:28:12] Evidently, it doesn't matter.

John Dehlin [01:28:13] It doesn't matter if the guy's a virgin. Okay, keep going.

Sandra Tanner [01:28:16] But then when he goes on to say he can keep taking them like that. But what happened to the first one given the consent?

John Dehlin [01:28:24] So that's the live Sarah, right?

Sandra Tanner [01:28:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:27] So that the first wife has to give consent. Right.

Sandra Tanner [01:28:30] So none of the other wives have to give consent. If he keeps racking up more Wives.

John Dehlin [01:28:36] So wife. Wives two, three, and four, they don't count.

Sandra Tanner [01:28:39] They don't get no. They have no say in this matter.

John Dehlin [01:28:42] And again, Joseph violated this law because

Jenn Kamp [01:28:45] they have to be virgins, and they have to be virgins, which they weren't. Because they were married to other men and they weren't a virgin.

Sandra Tanner [01:28:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:52] If at least 11 or 12 of the wives Joseph took.

Sandra Tanner [01:28:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:56] Married other men, they weren't virgins and he's violating his own law here.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:00] But then Joseph. Whatever Joseph does is right and is forgiven by God. So he gets a pass.

Sandra Tanner [01:29:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:29:06] Right.

Jenn Kamp [01:29:07] I think he said that once.

John Dehlin [01:29:11] Okay, what else. What else is wrong with this. With this verse?

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:17] Is it 61 again?

John Dehlin [01:29:19] Yeah, 61. And again, it's saying this language. For they are given unto him. Jen. For they are given unto him. Anything wrong with that?

Jenn Kamp [01:29:28] Yeah. You can't give another human being. I just want to make that clear. No giving. No giving of women.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:37] But it belongeth to him.

Jenn Kamp [01:29:39] They don't belong to you.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:41] For he cannot commit.

Jenn Kamp [01:29:43] They're not your property.

John Dehlin [01:29:45] Exactly.

Jenn Kamp [01:29:46] Everything. Wrong.

John Dehlin [01:29:49] The women belong unto the man.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:51] That's what Jesus is saying. Doctrine Covenants 1:32.

Sandra Tanner [01:29:55] I. I think it's interesting that he's zeroing in on these virgins, because if you look at the timeline on this, these 22 wives he already had, that's where you get most of the married women. But now, recently, at this point, he's got these young girls staying in the home, and he starts marrying these teenagers.

Sandra Tanner [01:30:17] So we start off with mostly married women, and then it gradually goes to these teenagers, younger and younger, younger and younger. And so this is evidently something that would have been very current on Emma's mind, the Partridge sisters and the Lawrence sisters, so that.

Sandra Tanner [01:30:36] Okay, we assume they were virgins, and so Emma would know that. So he's appealing to her. Well, these girls are virgins. See? So. So there was nothing wrong there. Overlooking the fact that he had all these married women as wives that she didn't know about. As far as we know. We did. She didn't know about the married women.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:55] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [01:30:55] And the knowledge that she has seems to be at this late point with the young women that four of them that she said he could take.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] Yeah, and. Yeah. And. And by the way, let's just do a thought experiment here. Let's say in 2022. Right. Let's say there's a Mormon man who. There's a Mormon man who marries his first wife. He's sealed to her. She dies, and then he wants to take A second Mormon wife. True or false? The church will allow him to get sealed to a second wife. True or false?

Sandra Tanner [01:31:32] Yeah, true.

John Dehlin [01:31:32] True. Okay, so. So he picks a woman he wants to be sealed to, but let's just say that she was previously married and it had sex. In the modern Mormon Church, can this fictitious man, hypothetical man, marry this second woman, get sealed to her in the eternities even though she's already had sex? Is there any evidence that the Mormon Church enforces this virginity rule which is enshrined in the scriptures? When Down H. Oaks took his second wife, was she a virgin?

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:07] I think maybe.

John Dehlin [01:32:09] I guess Russell Nelson's wife might have been, but was donate jokes. His second wife a virgin?

Sandra Tanner [01:32:15] I imagine so. I think that's kind of a requirement for those guys, but let's just say

John Dehlin [01:32:20] it's somebody that had, you know, joined the church, a convert who had had sex previously. Are they.

Gerardo Sumano [01:32:26] No, it's not a rule that it's enforced.

Jenn Kamp [01:32:28] Yeah, no

John Dehlin [01:32:31] scriptures.

Sandra Tanner [01:32:31] Yeah, it's right there.

John Dehlin [01:32:32] They got to be virgins.

Sandra Tanner [01:32:34] The only thing requirement is that she hasn't been sealed in the temple to somebody else. And they don't that as far as I know, they don't require anything else of her to qualify, assuming that she's a good Mormon. But it wouldn't matter if she had been married before. Well, it wouldn't matter if she had been a harlot before because she could repent of that and still go and get married in the temple as long as she hadn't been sealed to someone else. So it has nothing to do with her morality. It has to do with whether she was sealed to someone else.

John Dehlin [01:33:09] Yeah, yeah. And of course, Sandra Social Islander is reminding us of a very important point that we've mentioned in the previous episodes. What literally did Jesus say about marriage in heaven?

Sandra Tanner [01:33:21] There's no marriage in heaven.

John Dehlin [01:33:25] Right?

Sandra Tanner [01:33:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:33:26] Matthew makes that very clear words. Did he stutter?

Sandra Tanner [01:33:29] Did Jesus seem to be pretty clear?

John Dehlin [01:33:32] So. So like all of this is completely unbiblical, right?

Sandra Tanner [01:33:35] One would think.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:36] Unbiblical and against the Book of Mormon. Like one wonders why Doctrine and Covenants 132 exists.

John Dehlin [01:33:44] Because why didn't Alma or King Benjamin reveal DNC 132?

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:48] It goes against the Book of Mormon.

Sandra Tanner [01:33:49] Yeah, right. Because it gets them all mixed up on this. Who had kids when? And what if you throw in Jacob from the Book of Mormon where it's only to have children to raise up seed, and yet none of this has to do with raising up. Joseph's wives have nothing to do with raising up seed. So they can't use the excuse of, oh, there's an exception in the book of Jacob that he could have more wives because God commanded him. Well, God supposedly commands them only if it's a matter of raising up children, which he didn't do. So there's the conundrum.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] All right. Verse 60. Oh, do you have more?

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:33] No.

John Dehlin [01:34:33] Okay. Verse 62. This is. Jen, I want you to tell me what the point of this verse is. Okay.

Jenn Kamp [01:34:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:34:40] And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him and they are given unto him, therefore he is justified. Can you summarize what Jesus is wanting to make really clear here, Jen? What's the purpose of that verse?

Jenn Kamp [01:34:57] That he can have as many wives as he wants.

John Dehlin [01:35:00] Yeah, like, we're not just talking two, we're not just talking five. If he wants Ted, he can have it. Right? I mean, isn't that. Isn't it sort of like there's no minimum here?

Sandra Tanner [01:35:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:12] Right. He just wants to make God. Jesus wants to make sure it's really clear there's no minimum to the number of wives that the man. Virgins that the man can bring on.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:22] It's really interesting online. Online. Do you know the number 10 has a reference and if you click on. Takes you to verse 48, which is talking about Joseph is not condemned, basically, and shall be without condemnation on earth and in heaven.

John Dehlin [01:35:43] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:43] Kind of interesting.

Jenn Kamp [01:35:44] That's funny that it would refer back to that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:47] Yeah. Saying that whatever God's. Whatever God gives him, he can take it. Whatever he wants, God will give him, he can have it.

John Dehlin [01:35:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's basically no limit to the number of wives a man can have. Mean. Isn't that really what 62 is saying?

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:04] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [01:36:05] Oh, but I think there is. Who was it that. Was it Kimball that had so many wives sealed to him, and there was some kind of statement about you couldn't have more than 999 or something.

John Dehlin [01:36:19] Is that okay, Jen? Does that feel better? That at least there's a cap at 9.99?

Jenn Kamp [01:36:23] No. No, it doesn't.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] All right. Yeah. I mean, there's a. There's a mathematical problem here. I. That women are worth a fraction of what the men are.

Jenn Kamp [01:36:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:39] Not only. Not only are women owned and given to and belonged. Belonging to the man, but. But they're. They're death. 10 pennies to a dollar, right? 10. 10 pennies to a dime. 10 dimes to a dollar. Women are Worth a. Isn't that what's kind of implicit here? Women are worth a fraction of what men are worth.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:00] Am I, Am I, Is that. Am I overstating that? Is that the message you're getting, Jen?

Jenn Kamp [01:37:06] No. Well, yeah, I'm not seeing any worth given to women in this chapter at all.

John Dehlin [01:37:12] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [01:37:13] And then you got numerically, the problem of how they're going to find all these women because they're. We don't have that kind of disproportionate number of women to men in the real world. So I don't know where they all get these hundreds of women. And like, when you look at the list of the wives that the men in Nauvoo had, the guys coming out to Utah, I mean, you start off with Joseph and Brigham. Brigham with numbers up anywhere from 30 to 50 or so. There's several of them that have those big numbers. But they get out to Utah, they can't sustain that. And so other than the wealthy guys, the local farmer usually is only going to get one or two wives.

Sandra Tanner [01:38:02] There just weren't enough women to go around when they get out here to. To have it practiced at the rate Joseph practiced it. No one else could have that kind of harem.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:14] And. And by the. And just to refer back to a point we made in a previous episode, what the church wants to sort of say here in terms of the numbers is women, you should feel flattered. So, Sandra and Jen, you should feel flattered because what this means is numerically, that women are just on average, more righteous than men. And so God's got to make some accommodation for the large number of righteous men versus the smallest, smaller number of righteous. Large number of righteous women versus the smaller number of righteous men. And so women, you should feel happy that God's basically saying women on average are more righteous than men. That's what. That's. That's. That's the cool thing here.

Sandra Tanner [01:38:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:57] Are you feeling better?

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:58] No.

Sandra Tanner [01:38:59] Feeling better already.

Jenn Kamp [01:39:00] So we're. And then we're rewarded with being a polygamous wife that we didn't want to be and having children for eternity.

John Dehlin [01:39:11] Not just that.

Jenn Kamp [01:39:11] Evil spirits.

John Dehlin [01:39:12] But your names won't be known. Your. Your children can't pray to you. They can only pray to the guy. They can't talk and you can't talk about you.

Sandra Tanner [01:39:20] Yeah. This last conference, one of the guys. I don't remember who it was.

Jenn Kamp [01:39:24] Oh, you're just making me so angry. John.

John Dehlin [01:39:26] Stop talking about Jesus.

Jenn Kamp [01:39:27] Stop adding more to it. The polygamy is Enough. Don't.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:31] Jesus.

John Dehlin [01:39:31] It's not. Not me.

Jenn Kamp [01:39:32] Jen, Don't. Don't add Heavenly Mother into this because I'm already upset about polygamy.

John Dehlin [01:39:37] You were saying?

Sandra Tanner [01:39:39] Well, this last conference, one of the general authorities was talking about Heavenly Mother. And was it Nelson that said it? That. Well, you guys have read the scriptures, you know as much about it as I do, which I thought was a little curious. What good is this guy? He doesn't know any more than me, but.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:00] Yeah, that's a good point.

Sandra Tanner [01:40:01] Anyways. Yeah, we're gonna have an awful lot of Heavenly mothers up there, so. Yeah, but that's why they tell us we can't pray to Heavenly Mother because we don't know which one it is, so. Yeah, but something to look forward to.

Audience Reactions and Broader Reflections

John Dehlin [01:40:22] There's a comment from Max George. Max writes, I do wish John was more angered by this than amused. I love you, John, but I don't find it amusing. So, I mean, I handle. I mean, we all handle emotions in different ways.

Gerardo Sumano [01:40:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:35] If you think that by me making jokes about this or laughing about it means I'm not angered, I think you're misunderstanding how I deal with emotion, you know, and I could be ragey, frothy at the mouth. That's just. I don't know, this is just how I deal. But I. I think you would be mistaken, Max George, to interpret my joking about this as not being angry.

Sandra Tanner [01:41:02] Right. And I think there is a level of frustration. The more you study Mormon history, the more angry you can become. And so at some point you have to vent because it's just so ridiculous that we all were put under such brainwashing and guilt about not being obedient to these people. And then you find out, well, they didn't honor my devotion, they didn't do their part.

Sandra Tanner [01:41:38] They were supposed to be the righteous men that we were submitting to, and we allowed ourselves to submit to them because we really believed they were righteous men. And then to find out that that sacrifice that we made to follow these men meant nothing, that they just got to do whatever they wanted and the rest of the flock just had to fall in line.

Sandra Tanner [01:42:03] It's so. Well, disappointing is the wrong word. I can't think of the word. It's just, it's such a mockery of all the members sincerity in honoring what these men say than to see the duplicity that the leaders have practiced through the years. So to stay sane, we can't stay angry every day.

John Dehlin [01:42:29] Yeah, for sure, for sure. And. And also, in addition to the anger that we all are feeling. And I'm not going to feel it like Jen is feeling or I'm not a woman.

Sandra Tanner [01:42:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:41] And I live. I still benefit from patriarchal structures and, and all that. So, so there, there is truth to what's being said that, that it's probably a lot less funny to a woman than it is to a man. So I actually concede that and I, I do want to be respectful about that. So. So, yeah, that's fair. So I, I mean no disrespect, and I apologize if that comes across. But I also want to say, isn't this ludicrous? Like, isn't dnc. It is tragic and awful.

Sandra Tanner [01:43:13] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:43:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:14] But isn't it also just preposterously ludicrously ridiculous?

Sandra Tanner [01:43:19] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:43:20] Yeah. And it's just so crazy that you didn't see this before. Like, it's. It, it is. And I, and I'm not kidding when, like my emotions during this are, are full circle. Like, I'm, I'm angry and then I'm sad, and then I want to just cry for them and then I want to cry for women now that are still in it and, and don't see it and. Oh, it's just hard. It's just hard.

Sandra Tanner [01:43:47] Well, it's like the book Ghost of Polygamy Past. Is that all the.

John Dehlin [01:43:50] Carolyn Pearson's book. We should put that in the show notes. The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy by Carolyn Pearson. An amazing book. We've had her on Mormon stories to talk about the book, so let's include a link to the book and to that episode. But go ahead. Cinder.

Sandra Tanner [01:44:03] So many people say, well, polygamy is way in the past. It's over. It, you know, it doesn't affect me or I was from pioneer. I wasn't from pioneer stock. And so I don't have polygamy in my background. It's irrelevant to me. But it is relevant in that it is given as a part of their scriptures. And if you really believe Mormonism, the woman is faced with the possibility, if she dies before her husband, that he can take a second wife, or depends on if he has sickly wives, maybe he can go through quite a few of them, but he can get more women.

Sandra Tanner [01:44:40] And this woman will. The first wife has no say on this. Well, each wife has no say once they died. And so her book shows all these women today that struggle with this concept of what if I die first? I couldn't handle it in the resurrection to meet my husband at the bar of God. And here he's standing with several women, you know, that they. That it is a current living problem for the Mormon woman. It isn't just something that happened 150 years ago. It's part of their life today of what could happen to them.

Sandra Tanner [01:45:19] And it's very sad that women go through this kind of turmoil. In my own family, my grandpa outlived his. My grandma and he married again. A lady met at the rest home. And according to Mormonism, he will be a polygamist in heaven. So when people tell me, oh, it's an old doctrine, it's not relevant anymore, I say, okay, well then Effie that married my grandpa in his old age, does she then not have a husband for eternity? Is she cut out of the picture again? I mean, she married him with the assumption that this would get her eternal life. She had her ceiling then for this.

Sandra Tanner [01:46:00] So it doesn't make sense that when people say, oh, well, we have agency. It doesn't have to be. You don't have to stick with the plan if you don't want to be in that. You don't have to. It just makes havoc of the whole concept of family ceilings. Then.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:15] Yeah,

John Dehlin [01:46:18] Another, another thing when we talk about the ludicrousness, if that's a word, or the ridiculousness of this is how is DNC132 not blown up Mormonism? Like I had a friend once tell me right when I got into Mormon studies, he said, if you want to hide something from a Mormon, put it in a book. And in this case, this isn't just like in the Journal of Discourses. This isn't just in the times and seasons. TSC132 is in canonized Mormon scripture and somehow it hasn't affected the church at all. And it's all right there.

Sandra Tanner [01:46:55] They don't read it. Or when they read it, they just read it to be through reading it, not to contemplate what it says. But I've talked to women that they tell me they haven't seriously read 132. I had a girlfriend that I connected with years after I left the church and we were sharing different things. And I think there had been some sort of polygamy story in the news. It may have been back when Warren Jeffs was being chased around and I asked her how she felt about polygamy. Oh, that was then, this is now. And she was just dismissive of it all. And I said, well, yeah, but what do you do with the people today that take a second wife because their wife died?

Sandra Tanner [01:47:43] Well, God will Sort it out. And there are always these excuses. And I said, but if you read section 132, it is still part of the Mormon doctrine. And she couldn't face that she didn't believe polygamy. She thought that was a mistake, but she couldn't face that it was in their scriptures and she was stuck with it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:04] Yeah, yeah, It's. It's like that. The black menaces,

Sandra Tanner [01:48:11] they.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:12] So I don't know if you know this, Sandra, but they. They are on this new hip app called Tik Tok and what. They're BYU students, and they go around and interview students on campus and they ask them questions, usually about race and, like, what they think about racism at BYU and stuff like that. But there's this one video where they go and ask students, girl students at byu, do you think there's going to be polygamy in heaven? And I think all of the girls are like, I've never thought about that.

Sandra Tanner [01:48:45] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:45] It's like, how have you never thought about that? You're a byu. The name Brigham Young should ring a bell. Everyone knows he had multiple wives.

Sandra Tanner [01:48:55] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [01:48:56] Most of them probably been members their whole lives. They know that their prophet is married to two women for eternity. The, say the. The first counselor or second counselor, Darling H. Oaks as well. And they've never, like, to some of these girls, this guy's had, like, the interviewer had to explain because they were. Be like. Like the girls would be like, what do you mean? And. And like, the interviewer would, well, just like Russell M. Nelson is married to two women for eternity, do you think that he's gonna have both wives in heaven? And the women and the girls are like, well, kind of like, I don't know.

Gerardo Sumano [01:49:34] And. And I had that exact experience while I was at BYU Idaho, talking to a friend of mine who. I mean, she was a member of the church and everything, and. And we were discussing this same topic, and because she had just gotten engaged, she was about to get married. And I don't know how it came up, but I brought. Brought up the fact that if she. It came up that if she ever died, her husband might marry another woman for eternity, and then he would have both of them in heaven. And she was like, well, but if I didn't want to, then, like, I'll have a choice.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:10] I said, but how are you gonna have a choice? You'll be. I mean, it sounds bad, but you'll be dead by then, and your husband's gonna be sealed, like, ceilings. Can't be, you know, on Just undone. Just. Cuz she's gonna. He's gonna be sealed to both of you. And she just. As the more she thought about it, she just started crying. And she had been a member of the church her whole life and she had never thought about it.

Sandra Tanner [01:50:37] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:37] And it's just crazy how more and more women or, you know, my age in the church have never thought about it because the church has been able to hide this section in plain sight and not talk about it.

Sandra Tanner [01:50:53] Well, they keep emphasizing free agency.

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:56] Right, right.

Sandra Tanner [01:50:57] And so that just becomes a covering for all the problem areas. Well, there's free agency.

Gerardo Sumano [01:51:03] Yeah, yeah, so. Okay, sorry, go ahead. Yeah, so yeah, like you said, it's. It's just. It's just kind of crazy.

John Dehlin [01:51:14] Yeah, yeah, it's super crazy. And no one's thought about it and. Yeah, I was just, I was just noticing you brought Black menaces again. Like I'm seeing articles just this week released on Newsweek and kueer and insider.com, like the. This is the week where the Black Menaces really hit national recognition. So we're, you know, we'll be including links to their Tick Tock and Instagram pages, but please buy their merch. I think the shirts might be sold out, but support them because they're worth supporting.

Jenn Kamp [01:51:52] I should have worn mine today. Next time, Next time, next time, next time.

John Dehlin [01:51:56] Yeah, next time. Okay, well, we've. We've got a couple verses to go. So are we at 63? Is that right? But if one or either of the 10 virgins after she is espoused shall be with another man, she has committed adultery and shall be destroyed. For they are given unto him to multiply, replenish the earth according to my commandment, and to fulfill the promise which was given by my father before the foundation of the world and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds. That they may bear the souls of men.

Final Verses and Summary Critique of D&C 132

John Dehlin [01:52:43] Sorry, that they may bear the souls of men. I guess the female babies aren't important there. Like what? That they may bear the souls of men. For herein is the work of my father, not my father. And mothers, the work of my father continued. That he, not he and she and them may be glorified. All right, so what's this one saying? Sandra, help us out with this one.

Sandra Tanner [01:53:09] Well, it just goes on and on. It's just more of the same. It just multiplies the women as property to. For all generations to come.

John Dehlin [01:53:22] But it's saying, it's just making it really clear that these polygamous wives can't have Sex with other men. Right, Right. Or they'll be destroyed.

Sandra Tanner [01:53:29] Right, right. I took. I made a count of that at one time. Like, there's about 10 or 11 times they use the word destroyed through this section.

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:39] Yeah. And I think seven of them are directed directly to. Towards Emma.

John Dehlin [01:53:43] Why didn't God say, if Joseph takes wives without Emma's consent, he'll be destroyed. Where's that. Where's that destruction?

Gerardo Sumano [01:53:53] No, he'll be forgiven for his trespasses.

Jenn Kamp [01:53:56] Yeah, yeah. He gets forgiveness that he gets to the. The. The power to do himself.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:03] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:04] Where's. Like, whereas if. If Joseph takes on Fanny Alger, has sex with her in a barn before the ceiling powers ever even given as my prophet, he'll be destroyed.

Jenn Kamp [01:54:15] No, he'll be forgiven and given all the power. That's what it will.

Sandra Tanner [01:54:19] And Emma has to accept her.

Gerardo Sumano [01:54:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:22] And if Joseph takes on 22 wives before telling Emma that's okay. And then again, I don't mean to belabor this point, but like, this language about. Like this is women, just Mormon. Jesus doesn't care about women because the women are given and they're only there to make babies and to multiply and replenish the earth.

Jenn Kamp [01:54:46] And only the male babies count.

John Dehlin [01:54:49] It's only the souls of men that they're bearing, not the souls of men and women. And then again, we're believing that God has. God is married and has multiple celestial God wives, but it's the work of the Father, not work of the Father and his wives. Right, Right. And the glory goes to who that he may be glorified, meaning God. And none of the wives get. None of the God wives get any glory?

Sandra Tanner [01:55:15] Nope. Nope. And you can't talk to them or

John Dehlin [01:55:19] know their name or talk.

Sandra Tanner [01:55:20] Don't send them a text message.

John Dehlin [01:55:23] And this is Jesus. Okay, 64. Hey, guys. Women, everyone. Non binary people. Three more verses to go. Three more verses to go. We're almost done. Verse 64. And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God, For I will destroy her. For I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law. So who. Which women are being destroyed now in this verse?

Sandra Tanner [01:56:08] The ones that won't hand over a woman to their husband, because that's what she has to do. She has to administer to Him. So she. She's the one that's gonna put the woman's hand in their husband's. Evidently.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:25] Is.

John Dehlin [01:56:25] Is this saying that if a Mormon man tells his existing first wife about the law of eternal marriage and then she's not down with it, is this now meaning that.

Sandra Tanner [01:56:38] Yeah, that she gets destroyed.

John Dehlin [01:56:40] She gets destroyed.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:42] So it's not just Emma that's getting destroyed. Any first wife.

Sandra Tanner [01:56:45] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:56:45] Any Mormon first wife who learns about eternal marriage and refuses. This is like the law of Sarah. So somehow. Okay, wait a minute. I know. No, this is big.

Gerardo Sumano [01:56:55] This is contradicting the law of Sarah.

John Dehlin [01:56:57] So the law of Sarah says that you. You can't take extra wives unless the first wife says yes, consents.

Jenn Kamp [01:57:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:05] But then it's saying in 64 that if the first wife doesn't consent. What?

Jenn Kamp [01:57:12] She can do it anyway.

John Dehlin [01:57:14] She'll be destroyed. Right. That is so weird. Like, why bother giving the law of Sarah? Is that. Is that consent? If it's the penalty of non consent is death.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:27] Yeah, Agency.

Sandra Tanner [01:57:28] Now you're jumping ahead because that's the next verse.

Jenn Kamp [01:57:30] Yeah, that's true.

John Dehlin [01:57:31] Okay, sorry, but I mean that's. To me, that's in 64. But I guess as he has to

Jenn Kamp [01:57:35] reiterate it, you know, least seven. You know, seven times, as Mormon Jesus

John Dehlin [01:57:40] does, he likes to repeat himself and make things really clear. So if Mormon Jesus didn't make that. That destruction of non consent really clear in verse 64, verse 65 says, Therefore it shall be lawful in me if she receive not this law, she meaning any other Mormon wife from here to eternity, for him to receive all things whatsoever I the Lord his God, which will give unto him because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word. And she then becomes the tr. She becomes the transgressor. And he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar, thus slave to wife Sandra. What's that saying?

Sandra Tanner [01:58:29] Well, the. Yeah, where do I start again? The woman has to give her consent or she said she is in transgression. So the woman has no power in this arrangement. She has to give consent or she'll be destroyed. And she becomes the one in transgression, not the guy who that's got 22 wives already when he brings it up to her.

John Dehlin [01:59:00] And this is. This is again flying against what the Mormon Church is telling women now, which is that no Mormon woman today will be forced to practice polygamy. Yet in the scriptures. DNC 132 65. It's explicitly canonized as saying, if the woman isn't down with it, she'll be destroyed.

Jenn Kamp [01:59:21] Right. Yeah. He is exempt from the law of

John Dehlin [01:59:23] Sarah, and then he can just do it anyway.

Jenn Kamp [01:59:25] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [01:59:26] And should be destroyed.

Jenn Kamp [01:59:27] Basically. The law of Sarah is BS and

John Dehlin [01:59:30] it's right there in the same section, Right?

Sandra Tanner [01:59:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:33] That same section invalidates itself. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:35] Yeah. You can't say that this part is just about. Emma is being generalized to all.

John Dehlin [01:59:40] That's the whole point. Yeah, the whole point is to generalize this. Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:43] Yeah. But Kay Holbrooke won't talk about this verses she's kept through, though.

Jenn Kamp [01:59:52] It's weird how they stopped at verse 41.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:56] Yeah. Hank Smith won't talk about it. I mean, he probably loves his verses, but he won't talk about them.

John Dehlin [02:00:04] Were you gonna say something, Sander?

Sandra Tanner [02:00:05] No, that's fine.

John Dehlin [02:00:07] Okay. This is just amazing. This is just unbelievable. All right, so. So we've come to the final verse of d and c. 132, verse 66. And now, as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will reveal more unto you hereafter. Therefore, let this suffice for the present. Behold, I am Alpha and Omega. Amen.

Sandra Tanner [02:00:36] What more would he be revealing? Wow.

John Dehlin [02:00:41] What's next? Yeah, and where is that revelation, by the way?

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:44] Well, Kate Holbrooke did talk about this last verse because she was saying, well, maybe he revealed more to Joseph and that's why he was able to do stuff that didn't align with this revelation. And.

Sandra Tanner [02:00:56] Yeah, that's why. Yes, I guess maybe the further revelation is when they had to give up polygamy for the government. And so is that the next revelation is, oh, by the way, you don't really have to do it now.

John Dehlin [02:01:11] Never mind

Jenn Kamp [02:01:13] the next convenient revelation.

John Dehlin [02:01:16] Like, well, what's the chance that when Mormon Jesus was telling Joseph Smith, there will be more information I give you later, what he meant was, I'm gonna roll this whole show back and take it all away. What's the chance that was Mormon Jesus was thinking what he said, verse 66. What do you think? Yeah, Jen, what's the likelihood that that's what Mormon. I usually don't swear.

Jenn Kamp [02:01:39] They always. They. They always have to give him an out. They, the brethren, always give themselves an out. So you had to make sure he had a little out of there at the. At the end. You just have to throw that in there.

Sandra Tanner [02:01:51] But maybe Joseph really had some other crazy ideas that were worse than this. And. And he didn't have time that day to deal with anymore.

John Dehlin [02:02:01] Can you see Emma? Wait, there's more. More? What more could there possibly be?

Jenn Kamp [02:02:09] Isn't there a story that she ripped this up and threw it in the fire? Isn't there a story? Okay, I believe that. I believe that story.

John Dehlin [02:02:18] There's more.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:22] Oh, my goodness.

John Dehlin [02:02:26] Left alive. I'm surprised.

Jenn Kamp [02:02:28] No wonder she went, like, with the other church and said that never happened. Like, seriously. Poor girl. Like, seriously. Big hugs to you in heaven, Emma. You like? You're my hero.

John Dehlin [02:02:45] Well, we made it through. We did it in only two hours.

Sandra Tanner [02:02:49] We broke.

John Dehlin [02:02:50] We broke a land speed. A more mysterious land speed record because we did it.

Sandra Tanner [02:02:54] Oh, dear.

Gerardo Sumano [02:02:55] I. I called this, this last episode, the Truth About Joseph Smith's Polygamy.

John Dehlin [02:03:00] You got a little clickbaity in your. In your thumbnail.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:03] We're reading the scriptures, man. Like, it doesn't get more truth than that, right?

Sandra Tanner [02:03:11] I have a testimony. Oh, my.

John Dehlin [02:03:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, there you have it, brethren and sister and everyone else. That's DNC132. I actually. I actually summarized. Okay, I want each of you to think about summarizing what's wrong with DNC132, but I made a short list, and you guys can add to it. So just to summarize, Mormon Jesus in DNC 132 treats women as cattle. They're given to men. They're literally called property. Right?

John Dehlin [02:03:46] They're. They're. They're. They're counted as a fraction of the worth of men. Right? They're threatened with destruction. There's no consent. There's no agency. They're threatened with destruction. And that's peaceful Prince of Peace. Mormon Jesus threatening women with destruction, including Emma, if they do not obey, but then also pretending like they get choice in the matter, which is almost gaslighting in and of itself. There's the question of the likelihood that this is really God versus Joseph just trying to justify bad action.

John Dehlin [02:04:20] There's, you know, there's the fact that, that, that this is not just for Joseph and Emma, but it's for the church. But God is giving such specific, detailed information about Joseph and Emma's situation as scripture. And then there's just the question that LDS discussions and other, you know, it's 1840, whatever. What are some of the things God could be giving revelation about? Oh, I don't know, slavery, the Civil war that's about to come, Boiling water, germ theory. Like, you know, there's a lot of things that God could. Could conveniently be giving Revelations about it's going to be threatening and coercing women to let men have lots of sexual partners.

John Dehlin [02:05:02] Partners. Right. And, oh, by the way, none of this matters now in 2022. It's all a big. Never mind. You know, And. And the fact that all of this is hid from investigators and from Mormons and it's not discussed, and it's. It's basically passed over every single year. Okay, that's my. That's my summary of problems. Do you want to add anything, Sandra?

Sandra Tanner [02:05:26] Amen.

John Dehlin [02:05:26] Okay. And, yeah, I. I would imagine you would say what this makes Jesus look like. Right. And how this betrays New Testament Jesus. No.

Sandra Tanner [02:05:36] Right. It's. It is not the picture of Jesus that anyone encounters when they read the Gospels.

John Dehlin [02:05:43] It makes you.

Sandra Tanner [02:05:44] Jesus is known for his acceptance and love, forgiveness and encouragement of people, helping the downtrodden champion the down and out, trying to break through barriers like the Good Samaritan story. And that. This doesn't sound like the Good Samaritan story. It sounds like a different person.

John Dehlin [02:06:07] Not to mention Jesus said there'll be no marriage in heaven.

Sandra Tanner [02:06:09] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:06:10] Right. Okay. Gerardo, you want to add to the list or did we cover them all?

Closing Thoughts and Thank You to Guests

Gerardo Sumano [02:06:14] I think you covered it most of that. Yeah. I think all of that. All that I can think of.

John Dehlin [02:06:19] Jen, bring it home. Bring us home, Jen.

Jenn Kamp [02:06:24] I would just say that they basically strip every woman or Heavenly mother of identity. And doing that also strips her from communicating with her children. And as a mother, I could think of no other greater hell than being divided from my kids. And so I think that, like, stripping identity and humanity and everything from a woman is. Is heinous. Is. Is the worst kind of man.

John Dehlin [02:07:13] Yeah. And yet this is supposed to be Jesus or God doing all this.

Jenn Kamp [02:07:16] Yeah. This isn't my God.

John Dehlin [02:07:20] Yeah. And. And again, Heavenly Mother, Heavenly mothers, they're nameless here. Their glory and their power is irrelevant here.

Jenn Kamp [02:07:27] And it doesn't even. It doesn't even matter if you believe in this religion or not. Just even to stand for a religion that. That teaches that to women is just not okay. It's just not okay.

John Dehlin [02:07:44] Yeah. Yeah. And then you can't get mad at Warren Jeffs or the FLDS Church or the United Apostolic Brethren. You can't get mad at any modern Mormon fundamentalist cult. I mean, the. The under the Banner of Heaven series is about to come out. They're going to be talking about the Lafferty Brothers. They're going to be talking about all the different fundamentalist offshoots, including Warren Jeffs. They're all just. They're just obeying DNC 132. Am I wrong?

Sandra Tanner [02:08:16] They are all following the prophet. This is our ancestors. Warren Jeffs. Today is the same as what our ancestors obeyed and went through in Nauvoo and in Utah.

John Dehlin [02:08:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So check out Carolyn Pearson's the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy, the book and the previous episodes. Check out our previous episodes if you haven't listened to them. And. Yeah. Sandra, thank you so much for being willing to come here and share your wit and wisdom. Our audience loves you. They adore you. We've gotten hundreds of comments about how much people love and appreciate you. You really are a legend and a hero to so, so many thanks for being willing to come on.

Sandra Tanner [02:09:05] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:09:06] What do we have to do to get you back to talk about other things?

Sandra Tanner [02:09:10] I guess it all depends on how controversial it is. There'll be more.

John Dehlin [02:09:19] Okay, well. Well, I would just say on behalf of my audience, if. If you're willing to come back, we'll. We'll even do our best to kind of make it worth your while financially because we respect your. Your expertise. We would love to have you back to. To talk about other big issues because you. You've got 500 of these things you can talk about, right?

Sandra Tanner [02:09:37] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:09:39] How can people support someone's just wrote, sandra Tanner is a national treasure. I agree. Sandra, how can people support you and you personally, but also your. Your life's work?

Sandra Tanner [02:09:51] Well, if they want to make a donation to the ministry, they can send money if anyone does stuff through the mail anymore, to our P.O. box at 1884 Salt Lake City, Utah.

John Dehlin [02:10:04] We'll include that in the show notes.

Sandra Tanner [02:10:05] And so. And if they're in Salt Lake, they can stop by the bookstore and say, hi. I have people stop in almost every day that want to have their picture taken with me.

John Dehlin [02:10:17] I think you should charge them.

Sandra Tanner [02:10:20] My mailroom guy is becoming a professional, professional photographer because he always has to come out from the back and come take the pictures for us. But, yeah, stop by and say hello.

John Dehlin [02:10:31] And also, you sell books, right?

Sandra Tanner [02:10:32] Oh, well, yes. By the way, we have a little bookstore, and we have a lot of the books dealing with these different subjects there in the store, plus a lot of free papers.

John Dehlin [02:10:42] And the website is.

Sandra Tanner [02:10:43] The website is utlm. Org.

John Dehlin [02:10:49] Absolutely.

Sandra Tanner [02:10:50] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:50] Yeah.

Sandra Tanner [02:10:51] These hard questions at the end, I just, you know.

John Dehlin [02:10:56] All right, well, Sandra, thank you so much. And, Gerardo, you're a freaking treasure, too. Thank you so much for being a part of this. And Helping this happen.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:03] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:11:04] Yeah, we've got good stuff coming up, right?

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:06] Yeah, yeah. Pretty exciting stuff.

John Dehlin [02:11:08] We've got more Simon Southerton, we've got more John Larsen, hopefully. We've got LDS discussions. Lots of cool things on the Maven. We might even be interviewing Maven sometime soon.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:21] Yeah. One of the founders of Fair Mormon soon.

John Dehlin [02:11:25] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Carry shirts, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so many good Mormon stories episodes. Margi is going to keep doing her thrive stories like, love Margi. Yeah. So much good in the weeks, months and years ahead. So, Gerardo, thank you so much for. For everything you do for the osf.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:44] And Jen, you are a freaking bright light and a breath of fresh air and you're amazing.

Jenn Kamp [02:11:49] A thank you. Appreciate that.

John Dehlin [02:11:51] And I've been getting like every time I get when I send it to you, but I've been getting dozens and dozens and dozens of comments and emails saying how much people love you.

Jenn Kamp [02:11:59] So thanks, everybody. I love you too.

John Dehlin [02:12:03] All right, thanks. Thanks for the support. Just really quickly, thanks to everyone who donated through Super Chat. Whenever you do these live streams on YouTube, you can donate through the Super Chat feature that helps us stay alive, that helps us make all this possible through the Facebook feature. You can also click on the stars and donate through that. And then of course, the preferred way is for you just to become a monthly donor@mormonstories.org click on the Donate button, Become a monthly donor and whatever you can afford. We that all that money is tax deductible. We're transparent in our finances and 100% of what you give to us goes to Jen and Gerardo and Sandra and me and these facilities and other people behind the scenes like Jennifer and Brooklyn and others.

John Dehlin [02:12:49] There's this whole operation here that makes all this possible. And John Larsen and Simon and, you know, so. So please do support us. If you value what we do. And as long as you do, we'll keep doing what we do and we'll just keep fulfilling the mission of the Open Stories foundation, which is to provide informed consent to Mormons and Mormon investigators throughout the world to provide support for Mormons in faith crisis and to promote healing and growth and community for people who leave Mormonism and need support elsewhere. That's what the Oba Stories foundation is about, and that's why we need your support. And finally, be a menace.

John Dehlin [02:13:28] Be a menace. Support black menaces. Buy their shirts, buy their swag, support them, check them out, follow them on Tick Tock and on Instagram. Support them, email them, love them. And we Just give our healthy, hearty, supportive shout out to black menaces and the, and the great work that you're all doing. And to Utah Lighthouse Ministry, to Sandra Tanner.

Sandra Tanner [02:13:51] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:13:52] All right, we'll see you next week.

Sandra Tanner [02:13:53] All right, Sandra, I, I think I'm busy next week.

John Dehlin [02:13:58] All right. Two weeks.

Sandra Tanner [02:14:01] We'll see. Probably not two weeks.

John Dehlin [02:14:04] Okay.

Sandra Tanner [02:14:05] Too soon.

John Dehlin [02:14:06] Too soon. All right. Well, we are going to be sharing. I just found out from Chris Thomas. He gave me the go ahead.

Sandra Tanner [02:14:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:14:11] Next episode, I think we're going to stream it tomorrow. We're going to be sharing a story of our friend Chris Thomas interviewing you about your journey with the Book of Mormon.

Sandra Tanner [02:14:22] Right? Yes. Way back in the dark ages when we had to struggle with that after losing our faith in all the rest of Mormonism, hanging on to the Book of Mormon for three more years and what that looked like.

John Dehlin [02:14:35] So listeners of yours, check out tomorrow or in the next sequential episode of Mormon Stories, a really special episode of our friend Chris Thomas interviewing you, Sandra, about Mormon. All right, so a month.

Sandra Tanner [02:14:47] A month maybe.

John Dehlin [02:14:49] Okay, we got it. We just heard that. All right, thanks, everyone. Sleep well. Be kind to each other, be good to each other, have compassion for each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Bye, everybody.

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