Welcome and Introducing Gary and Ernie

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is September 13, 2022, and I am so honored to have the wise, the brilliant, and the lovely Margi Dehlin in the house as my co host for today.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:18] I'm excited for this one.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:20] So happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] You kind of produced this one. You kind of set this one up. That's right, yeah. And this is a couple that I've been wanting to interview for a very, very long time. Today we have in the studio the official guncles of Zelf on the shelf. We have Gary Horlocher and Ernie Horstmanshoff. Hey, guys.

Gary Horlocher [00:00:42] Hey, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] It's Gary and Ernie.

Gary Horlocher [00:00:45] Yep. Not Bert and Ernie. Gary and Ernie.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:00:47] Gary and Ernie, that's right. But when people call me Gary, I don't correct him. He's really smart.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Yeah. Gary and Ernie are in the house. And for those of you who are post Mormons here, kind of along the Wasatch front, if you've attended any of my karaoke events, if you have attended many Thrive or Mormon Stories workshops or retreats, you would have bumped into Gary and Ernie at some point. They're much beloved. They've also been, you know, involved in mocha or coca, which are kind of ancillary groups of the women's of a certain age community. But they're just. They're a beloved couple here along the Wasatch front. And they've been dear friends of mine in one way or another. I mean, you could even say since 2004, actually, in. In one way that we'll explain maybe in a bit. But today we are going to be kind of telling a love story. And the main theme of today is can. Let's just say you're living the Mormon dream or the Mormon nightmare or something in between, and it all kind of falls apart. And you may be not in a relationship or you may be in a relationship that falls apart. And let's just say you reach kind of your midlife in some way wondering if you'll ever find love, find a companion, and find joy. Today is a post Mormon love story that is inspiring. Is that okay if we frame it that way?

Gary Horlocher [00:02:17] Ah, sure, you bet.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:02:19] I know I hit the lotto with

John Dehlin [00:02:20] Gary, so yeah, that's what you're gonna get today is a post Mormon love story to give you hope and to inspire you, but also to hear from two beautiful humans. So again, Gary Horlocher and Ernie Horstmanshoff, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Gary Horlocher [00:02:37] Thank You, John.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:02:39] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:02:39] Anything you want to add or correct to the introduction?

Gary Horlocher [00:02:43] Well, I think we're so much more than just love. It's like. I don't know, it's just like friends and travelers and. I don't know, it's just.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:55] Yeah.

Gary Horlocher [00:02:56] I feel so fortunate for the way our life is so blessed right now in our life. It's really great. So, anyway, we'll get to that.

John Dehlin [00:03:04] Love is just one of many facets of your relationship.

Gary Horlocher [00:03:07] There you go. That's what I meant.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:03:10] Yeah. And we. We tend to feel, I don't know, humbled and honored on the fact that a lot of people that we know in the ex Mormon community have literally sought us out because they want to show their kids or others that you can have a successful gay relationship and be in love. Although I think when it comes to what makes a good relationship, then sexuality

Gary Horlocher [00:03:35] isn't the issue, but rather compatibility, companionability,

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:03:40] all that kind of stuff.

Gary Horlocher [00:03:41] Lots of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:03:42] There's part of me that didn't even want to mention that and just say it's love. It doesn't matter what kind of love, just love. But it's also true that. That especially coming out of Mormonism, our LGBTQ Mormon youth and young adults, and even older adults need hope and role models too. But I just would never want to limit your love story to just LGBTQ people. That's why I didn't mention it.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:04:08] Yeah.

Gary Horlocher [00:04:08] That's nice.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:04:09] So both.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] How about both? Both. And does that sound good, Margi?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:04:12] Good?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:13] Yes. And, yeah, we love it.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, so we're gonna hear about so much today. We're gonna hear about both of them, their Mormon stories. Growing up here in Utah. Both of them serve missions. In, you know, in Ernie's case, he will have entered into a mixed orientation marriage. We'll talk about that. In Gary's case, he was holding out. He was living that celibate life, and then in their midlives, they found each other. And so. And then we're just going to talk about what have been, how they found each other and what it's meant to each other to find each other, and what have been the secrets of their. Of their friendship and their companionship because they've inspired so many people that I know. So that's what we're going to be talking about today. Is that all right?

Gary Horlocher [00:05:07] You bet.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Okay. All right. So, Ernie, you might be a tiny bit older than Gary.

Gary Horlocher [00:05:12] Is that fair to say?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:05:14] Yes. 14 years separates us. So.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] So maybe, maybe we start with your Mormon story. Is that okay?

Gary Horlocher [00:05:21] You bet.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:05:21] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] Okay. So, Ernie, where does your Mormon story begin?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:05:26] Actually begins in Holland. My parents were originally in Indonesia, went through World War II, suffered a lot. Concentration camps, prison camps, political refugee camps. And then they got out of Holland. Apparently the Netherlands, I think, to avoid a bloodbath, made provisions for those who were associated with the Dutch and Christianity to get out. So they went to Holland. And when I was a year old, that would be 1955, there was a knock on the door, and probably everybody knows who that is, and it was the missionaries. And from what I've learned, missionaries weren't very successful in Holland at the time, but they seem to have success among these poor Indonesian immigrants in Holland. So anyway, they joined the church.

John Dehlin [00:06:15] Now, total kids in your family. Really quick is how many?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:06:19] 11 kids.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] And where are you in the birth order?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:06:22] I'm number five.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] Okay, so you're so five.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:06:26] Seven of nine. You know how that goes.

John Dehlin [00:06:28] Yeah, yeah.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:06:28] Okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] So several kids into their marriage, they find the Mormon missionaries while living in Holland.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:06:36] Right.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Okay.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:06:37] And so in 63, after becoming members of the church, the Dutch government petitioned the United States and said, hey. And I don't know if people know, but Holland is one of the most densely populated countries in the world. So they said, hey, could we have some people immigrate to the United States and we'll assist them? So my dad went in and applied, and basically they said, well, Mr. Horseman's off. You know, you got to have a sponsor. You've got seven kids. This might be hard. And they said, where do you want to go? And my dad, just like everybody, at least people he knew, would say California. And they looked at his form and they said, hey, it says that you're Mormon here. You need to put down Utah. He said, okay. So he puts Utah down. Apparently, these papers came to an individual. His last name is Tear Link. Tear Link Jewelry in Salt Lake, who was the Dutch consul. And he got that. He said to his son, hey, look at this. And his son said, who was a missionary in Holland, dad, that's the Horseman Saw family. They fed us all the time. He said, good, we're going to sponsor them. So that's what got us the United States. Salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] Around what year did your family come here?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:07:56] 1963.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] And by that time, how many kids?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:08:01] Seven.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] Okay.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:08:02] Four more were born in the United States.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] Okay.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:08:06] There's an explanation, I think, behind that. My parents came from a third world country. Where your retirement are your children. See, And I had three and only wanted Two. So I thought I might sell one of them, but, you know, it was hard to decide. My daughter always said I'm your favorite daughter.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] True.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:08:24] She's my only daughter. Anyway, so that's how we got to the United States.

Growing Up as Children of Dutch Immigrants

John Dehlin [00:08:29] What was your. What language? What was the native language spoken in your family?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:08:33] Dutch.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] Dutch? That was the first language of your entire family?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:08:37] Well, believe it or not, when I came to this country, I knew three words. I was in third or fourth grade, and they were.

John Dehlin [00:08:43] Yes, three English words.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:08:45] Three English words? Yes, no and maybe. So I could answer any question.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] Do you still speak Dutch?

Margi Dehlin [00:08:52] Oh, yeah.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:08:53] In a tulik. Yes. Okay. Can't speak Dutch.

John Dehlin [00:08:56] So that's your native language, is Dutch?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:08:58] It is.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] Is that common in Indonesia for Dutch to. To be the primary language spoken?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:09:05] Well, in Indonesia, of course, primary language is bahasa. But Indonesia was a Dutch colony for over 300 years. Okay, so that kind of explains the story of how my parents got out after World War II. They lost everything and then came to Holland. And then after the missionaries and they were Mormon, and the opportunity came to the United States. That's how we got to Utah.

John Dehlin [00:09:28] Okay, fascinating. Okay, so you settle where in 63. Is that. Is that right?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:09:34] Yeah. Salt Lake City at 23rd east in an 800 square foot home. Go figure.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] Holy. 800 square feet with like 11 people, eventually.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:09:45] 11. That's right.

Gary Horlocher [00:09:46] One bathroom.

John Dehlin [00:09:48] One bathroom.

Gary Horlocher [00:09:50] The two bedrooms. The parents and the. In the. And the girls.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:09:53] Right, right. And an unfurnished basement, wall to wall bed, you know.

John Dehlin [00:09:58] Is this. Is this house still standing?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:10:00] Oh, yes, it is. On 23rd, when you exit, you know, the freeway. I pass it all the time. They've neglected it since, but it's there.

John Dehlin [00:10:08] Okay, and what high school is that?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:10:12] Well, I went to Skyline, but when I say that, for those who are familiar with Salt Lake City, we were the poorest of the poor. Going to Skyline?

John Dehlin [00:10:21] Well, I guess. Is that kind of Olympus Cove? What is the part of Salt Lake that.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:10:26] Mill Creek. Right. It's right up on the east side. And if you're familiar with Salt Lake, the east side tends to be more prosperous and up against the bench.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] East side.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:10:36] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:10:37] Gordon Hinckley territory or not?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:10:40] I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] Okay.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:10:41] I wouldn't be surprised.

John Dehlin [00:10:42] Yeah. So your Mormon home growing up was. Was Mormonism interwoven into your family culture or not or.

Family Culture and Early Mormon Life

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:10:50] Well, I would like to say that I think my parents were like relaxed Mormons. You know, it wasn't orthodox, it wasn't rigid. And when I hit teenage years, I Got totally inactive and running around with kids and some of them didn't graduate from high school. But after high school, my brother went on a mission. And I think that at that stage, you know, when you're kind of young adult and you want to know what the heck to do with your life, I got really interested, studied Mormonism and kind of went overboard and activated a lot of my friends. They were all inactive. And so, you know, of course that's going to lead up to a mission, right.

John Dehlin [00:11:40] Where, what, what jobs were your parents holding down? Was your mom also working? Was it just your dad? What types of jobs?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:11:47] Well, with 11 kids, you. My mom was working, yeah. At home. Yeah. Yeah. All the time. We did have cleaning part time jobs where the entire family would go, so I would go clean. I still to this day can run a buffer with a pinky cleaning the floor in the Kennecott building in Salt Lake. And my claim to a little bit of fame is when Hoffman, you know, did the bomb at the door. I used to clean those floors.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] Oh, in the, Is it the Judge building or what's it called?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:12:17] I. I forget. But you know, you remember that incident with the bombings and all of that

John Dehlin [00:12:22] in the office building or the, the person.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:12:24] Yeah, yeah. Well, he'd left a, a bomb at an office building and the wrong person opened the door and, and I think it killed him. But anyway, so I was familiar with that building and actually Hoffman is kind of a cohort age of mine. I have a friend who I think served on the stage crew with him. So some familiarity there.

John Dehlin [00:12:44] Okay, so your dad's primary job was.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:12:48] He worked for. He was in food service, United Airlines.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] Oh.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:12:53] And back then they had a fancy kitchen in Salt Lake. Then they closed that down and he ended up moving to California in his later years and came and retired in Salt Lake. But my dad, as far as I can recall, until when he was in his late 50s, always had two jobs, you know, supporting the family. It was tough.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] And you're saying your mom was primarily stay at home mom didn't.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:13:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Didn't also have some type of source

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:13:22] except for the clean helping him on the cleaning jobs downtown, various buildings.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] And so the typical Mormon upbringing with like family home evening and scripture study and family prayer.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:13:34] Not so strict in our household.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] Okay.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:13:37] Although, you know, my dad wanted us to go to church and, and so we would. But like I said, my brother got active. I was inactive, but I got very, very active after high school.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] So would you have attended primary and done Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts and

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:13:56] Youth, a little bit of primary, not so much Boy Scouts, you know, that the Eagles next to me, I think I might have made it to a tenderfoot, you know, so. But very familiar, I guess, maybe because of my studies with Mormonism, its histories. And. And based upon the interview that you posted on the. What was it, 15, 20 years ago, where somebody did three stories and one of them was about my family, you get some background of how immersed I was.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] How were you treated as, let's just say ethnic minority? Is that fair to say in the Salt Lake?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:14:38] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] In the 60s and 70s?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:14:40] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] Were you considered a white kid? Were you considered a minority? How were you viewed and how were you treated?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:14:46] I think I was considered a minority, but had very little type of incidence of where I felt there was discrimination. I will say this getting a little ahead when I was on my mission and was with the president, serving the president. And there was another elder from Hawaii who was about 6ft tall and Chinese, and the rumor went around that the mission prison had two bodyguards because of our looks, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:15:13] Oh, okay. How were you treated, though, by, you know, in middle school, high school, by the Mormon kids around you?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:15:21] I don't think it was a problem. And possibly that might be maybe my personality. You know, I try to make friends and things of that nature, so. But I think it's a fair question because I do know a lot of people. I have a very diverse family, and I mean diverse racially, from African American to white to Asian to Hispanic. One day you're gonna have to come to one of our family parties. Matter of fact, I have a nephew, very brilliant Diogenes, and I swear I've always told him if they ever do a documentary on Obama in his 20s, then got to be the one.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] Yeah, it looks like.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:16:02] And people have told him that all the time. So again, you know. But I have experienced through them some of the tough times they've had in schools at Olympus and. And, you know, being kind of seen as not only different, but often kids will be kids and get discrimination comments, such things of that nature.

John Dehlin [00:16:24] But you were treated well?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:16:26] I think so. It's never been really an issue for me. And Gary's often said, you know, I might racially be different, but in my mind I seem to be quite American and English based.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] Yeah.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:16:42] Culturally.

John Dehlin [00:16:43] What were you? Just a few things. What were you into in high school? Like things that your passions, your fun. What types of things were you.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:16:49] A various question because I wasn't into high school. I don't know if I should mention this, but I did. Well, believe it or not, grade wise was a different time. But I remember the, my senior year and very end and I was going to graduate and the English teacher even remember her name, Vivian Knowles, said, ernie, come on in, come on in. I said, what, what's wrong? She said, you need to be grateful. I said, for what? And she said, well we defended you against the vice principal. He said, there's no way this kid's going to graduate with having missed this many days. But I graduated anyway. So I mean just to give you some background there, my life at that time was more probably running around doing things I shouldn't. Kind of wild teenager. So I can say that my involvement, so to speak of getting active in the Mormon church helped in a lot of ways and maybe a sense of values and direction, although the direction part now is no longer part of my life.

Childhood Struggles and Social Isolation

Gary Horlocher [00:17:49] I think you, you were mentioning too how hard it was at Christmas time and, and when teachers would ask you who your friends were and you know, some of those stories.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:18:00] Well, I guess so because my life is going so well. And this is interesting because I thought about this, I realized I specifically recall growing up two times when I lied. And I'll start with the second one. A high school had an English teacher, same teacher actually, sophomore year. And she said, I want you to take a piece of paper, everybody in the class, put your name in the center, put a circle around it and then draw lines to all your friends and put them in. So I just made up friends. Now there's a positive aspect to this because now if you ask me to do the same exercise, I'd say, can I have some more paper?

Gary Horlocher [00:18:45] Now he's got real friends.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:18:46] The other memory though was in church. It was Christmas Day. That happened to be the same Sunday I was in sixth grade. And the teacher said we're going to do without the lesson today and take, give everybody opportunity to say what they got for Christmas. So I just made it up.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] It was, it was difficult because you, your family didn't.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:19:13] Well, yeah, we, you know, we barely had any kind of Christmas. It was hard, you know, with that many kids, my dad working hard and I'm not looking for empathy, but it was just reality. But it just, you know, all of a sudden I was on the spot and all these kids are mentioning all the nice things they got. So I just made it up.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] Did you work in, in high school? You know, have jobs to earn money?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:19:37] Yes, I think I always had part time jobs. I almost worked all through my school Years, even until law school, I would work sometimes. So. And I think, you know, I attribute to my parents, especially my dad, which something seems to be a trademark of all of the Horseman's Hoffs is work ethic. So. And I'm grateful for that because it's gotten me in a lot of places because I think that's what you're supposed to do when you work, you know, Work.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] Yeah. Okay. This is fun. So I. Margi, any, you know, up through high school, do you have any questions for. For Ernie? And then we'll jump over to Gary and we'll kind of hop back and forth a little bit.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:17] I think I'm good right now. I'm just enjoying. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:20] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:20:21] It's beautiful. Thanks for sharing so far and being vulnerable.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:20:23] Sure.

Gary's Upbringing and Family Background

John Dehlin [00:20:25] All right, Gary, let's. Let's talk quickly about, you know, your same questions for you.

Gary Horlocher [00:20:31] Let's see. I'm six of eight. So we were kind of very different family than Ernie's family, other than the fact that we're a big family, which was pretty poor based on the number of kids and stuff. But my parents were both raised in America, and so the culture was not an issue. Mom was always trying to get us involved in school programs, very involved in our having a great childhood. And I don't think Ernie's mom knew the system and how to be involved with the kids at school and sports and music and all those kinds of things. I guess I was a serious child. I guess I'm still serious. Sometimes I need to lighten up. But, yeah, at 12, I was very involved in Boy Scouts. All my brothers. I have lots of brothers. And my mom would keep a folder of all their merit badge work with the answers to all the questions. So it was really easy for me to get my merit badges and order the arrow. We did Indian dancing, and in high school, I was in the band, in the choir, in the show choir, and in the football team and in the wrestling team and in the track team. And so I was very involved, involved in high school on my Kearney and.

John Dehlin [00:22:00] And this is Orem.

Gary Horlocher [00:22:02] Orem High. I was sick. What's that?

John Dehlin [00:22:05] Were you. Were you pretty athletic?

Gary Horlocher [00:22:07] Yeah, I just guessed. Good genes. I had a strong body for.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:22:12] He still is.

Gary Horlocher [00:22:13] And I wasn't. I don't have the competitive thing. Some of my other brothers are much more competitive than I am, so I would have probably done better in football if I had been more competitive. Wrestling was an individual sport, and I seemed to do better at wrestling over time. I picked up genealogy at 12. And that was.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] What the heck is that?

Gary Horlocher [00:22:38] I know genealogy. I am, too. Genealogy.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:42] We took a sharp left.

Gary Horlocher [00:22:44] So, yeah, I tried not to tell any of my peers at school what I did at home. It was embarrassing to be a genealogist. That's for old people, and that's a religious thing. But in Mormon culture, how did you

John Dehlin [00:22:59] get interested in genealogy? Like, was it about the stories of the people or just extracting names and dates?

Gary Horlocher [00:23:05] Well, my mom was doing it, and her mom did it, and I've got some aunts and uncles that did it. So when we did the merit badge, I kind of figured it out.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] What merit badge?

Gary Horlocher [00:23:16] Genealogy merit badge for Boy Scouts.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:23:19] Okay.

Gary Horlocher [00:23:20] And so then I picked on the pedigree chart. It was an ancestor named King Cole. And I thought, that's a weird name. Is that really a king? Or, you know, is there somebody. King Cole? What is that? And so I thought, I'm going to figure this out. I'm going to find out everything I can about this King Cole. And so I ended up writing a book. We'd made two trips back to Michigan and Ohio and Nebraska, where the people lived. And I sorted out all these families that had intermarried as they lived together as a community. And I published this when I was 16.

John Dehlin [00:23:58] What?

Gary Horlocher [00:23:59] And, yeah, by the time I went on my mission, I had about five more. Five or six more books that I had published, a second volume to that one, and I had done a lot of. I'd done a lot of interviewing, too. But these people, they're all long dead now. But at the time, you know, I got all their stories down and transcribed them and put them into these books.

John Dehlin [00:24:22] And so now I know about Nat King Cole. Do they share a common origin?

Gary Horlocher [00:24:28] I think his name was Ezra. When I finally found King Cole, somebody that was.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] They both named after some King Cole kind of thing.

Gary Horlocher [00:24:35] I've never really. I want to go back to that now with the DNA. So genealogy has changed a lot. And the DNA is really fun because you can sometimes break through things that couldn't be solved with just records.

John Dehlin [00:24:48] You didn't find some common. No source for that name? No.

Gary Horlocher [00:24:53] It's still a little mystery. I'm saving that one for retirement.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] Anyway, how important was the gospel to you and your family, the Mormon Church? Oh, wait. Would you mind explaining to kind of our never Mormon listeners just the reason, doctrinal and theological reasons why Mormons are into genealogy? Historically succinct.

Gary Horlocher [00:25:18] You know, I always loved it because it's like problem solving and it's really. It's like a great problem. I used to like puzzles, but now this is, like, way better than a puzzle trying to figure out who this person was. And so anyway, that was my motivation. But in the church, it's doing baptisms for the dead and then other marriages for the dead.

John Dehlin [00:25:41] Maybe just back up and explain that doctrine.

Gary Horlocher [00:25:44] So well, you know, we have the one true church, even though Joseph Smith started it in the 1830s and later and.

John Dehlin [00:25:52] Don't get spicy on me.

Gary Horlocher [00:25:58] Well, you know all this better than I do anyway, so you have to

John Dehlin [00:26:02] have a baptism from the Lord, so.

Gary Horlocher [00:26:04] Yeah. Well, what about all those people that died and weren't part of the Mormon Church?

John Dehlin [00:26:07] If you died between Jesus's death and 1830, when the church was founded, there's 2000.

Gary Horlocher [00:26:14] All those people are just in limbo and they're just waiting for us.

John Dehlin [00:26:18] And all the people before Jesus, they all need a Mormon, in effect, a Mormon religion. Right.

Gary Horlocher [00:26:23] So in a way, we get honored being a genealogist, because this is a job other people don't want to do, that they're supposed to do is a good Mormon. And so they're like, put you on a pedestal. Like, wow, you're so good you're doing that. And it's like, well, I wasn't really doing it for that reason, but it was like an extra. It's like male privilege. You get a privilege without having earned it. And so I just kind of enjoyed being kind of that religious kid. But I was also very serious. I went to all the seminaries.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] I want to connect the dots.

Gary Horlocher [00:26:57] Okay, yeah, yeah, please.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] If you. And most of you already know this, but for those who don't, if you. If you don't get a baptism, a Mormon baptism while you're alive, you're not going to make it to heaven. And so you need a baptism after you've died.

Gary Horlocher [00:27:13] Right, but.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] And that's what Mormon temples are for.

Gary Horlocher [00:27:17] Oh, I see. Huh.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] Because in Mormon temples, we do what are called baptisms for the dead, where I might go as a member and get baptized in the name of someone who's died. But you need someone's name and their birth date and kind of. You need to establish their identity as having lived so that then you can get baptized for them. And then they. They'll be in the spirit prison kind of limbo thing, and being taught the gospel because they didn't have a chance to learn it while they were on the earth. And if they accept the gospel in spirit prison, then if John gets baptized in the name of Jose Guadalupe, who is dead, then they can accept that baptism and then go to heaven.

Gary Horlocher [00:27:59] Right?

John Dehlin [00:27:59] Is that right?

Gary Horlocher [00:28:00] So we need genealogists to find the names of all those people and the relationships. And. And so we're all responsible to find our own ancestors.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] It's almost like missionary work for the dead, right? Isn't it?

Gary Horlocher [00:28:13] Yeah, it is.

John Dehlin [00:28:14] Like getting converts, but dead people.

Gary Horlocher [00:28:17] Right. And they say that we'll be saviors on Mount Zion or whatever, but will be held up as these heroes in the next life because we saved them from. Just like Jesus saved people. The genealogists and the temple people are saving people from eternal damnation or whatever. So.

John Dehlin [00:28:37] And all that's awesome. And none of it was your motivation, you're saying?

Gary Horlocher [00:28:40] It wasn't my motivation, but I'm sure I kind of, like smiled and thought it was nice to get extra strokes, but not from my peers.

John Dehlin [00:28:48] But the Mormon Church is kind of like one of the world leaders in genealogy. So even though that wasn't necessarily your motivation, being born and raised in Utah with a mom who's into genealogy, you're swimming in knowledge and resources. That probably made it easier for you.

Gary Horlocher [00:29:05] Yeah, right? Yeah. Yeah. I used to love. Sometimes I ride my bike from Orem, northeast Orem down to BYU to their genealogy area and look up census records and things. And I used to say I'd always pester my mom about ordering a death certificate or something, and she'd go through the family finances and show me how little there was. But there was just this little bit at the bottom that she'd let me have. And it was kind of crazy.

John Dehlin [00:29:33] But some kids are in comic books and some kids are into genealogy.

Gary Horlocher [00:29:38] It was very embarrassing. I didn't want anybody to know.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] I think it's super awesome.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:29:45] Thank you. Anyway, well, and I'm probably interrupting you to get way ahead, but he is a world class genealogist, probably the world's expert in the Scandinavian countries where Sweden even turned to ancestry to turn to him so they could find out stuff on people they wanted to do stories on.

Gary Horlocher [00:30:04] Ernie likes to brag about me because

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:30:06] he won't brag about himself.

Gary Horlocher [00:30:08] I do European work now for ancestry, and I did work for the church that might come up again, but.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] So you're a genealogist now? That's part of what I'm doing.

Gary Horlocher [00:30:17] That's my job. And the DNA stuff is really fun. I do European research. We have a lot of other people, and there's 12 languages that I translate in the Scandinavian now. He's bragging, I do Dutch, I do Czech Republic. I always show him. And he's like, oh, what is that? And so we try to figure it out together. That's kind of fun.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] It's awesome.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:43] I love that. That interest, curiosity, passion showed up so early and like, it sounds kind of organic, really.

Gary Horlocher [00:30:52] Yeah. My brain just loves it. But, you know, academics could have been another outlet too. I found that later. And I love the methodology and. And some of the mathematical part. Statistical analysis was kind of my thing.

The Church's Role in Their High School Years

John Dehlin [00:31:08] So in your, let's just say, high school years, what did the church mean to you? How Mormon was your family?

Gary Horlocher [00:31:15] Oh, yeah. I was just going to add that I was really religious kid. So I read the four standard works as part of seminary from COVID to cover.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] Wow.

Gary Horlocher [00:31:28] Before my mission.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] Even the Old Testament.

Gary Horlocher [00:31:30] Yeah. Worked my way through it like 10 pages a day until I made it through. Even all those. All the inventories and things. Leviticus and Anyway, it's so. I feel like I understand what it is now when people talk about. They don't even know what they're talking about. But it did feel like a little bit of a competition. And I didn't like that in the MTC when people like Ernie would come in and be all gung ho and repent. Had repented and they were all going to be that perfect missionary. And here I was. I'd done it all my life. But anyway, I didn't like that competitive thing. Who's going to be the best missionary and keep all the rules. But anyway, I grew up in Orem, Northeast Orem. The Osmonds were in our stake and we had Neal A. Maxwell, had a daughter in our ward. And my dad was very religious. He was kind of to a fault. He wouldn't let us watch shows that like the Love Boat or Fantasy Island, I don't know. That's my generation.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:32:38] He didn't.

Gary Horlocher [00:32:39] Yeah. You know, if they weren't married, they shouldn't be. They shouldn't be implying things.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] Oh, really?

Gary Horlocher [00:32:44] Yeah. You know, sex. Very sex phobic, I think. And. And anyway, it was.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] Just had nightcaps and that's just unacceptable.

Gary Horlocher [00:32:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] You wouldn't even know what I'm talking about.

Gary Horlocher [00:32:54] Yeah, I didn't. In fact, I'm not sure right now, but I think I know that's like alcohol at night, right? Nightcap.

John Dehlin [00:33:03] Yeah. It's like, would you like to come in for a nightcap? You know.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:05] Oh, okay.

Gary Horlocher [00:33:06] It starts with alcohol. My mom would watch from the kitchen if my dad was out of town. And we all started watching it. Then mom would. Mom would kind of watch in the background. She didn't mind. But when dad was there, we were not allowed.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:21] That's interesting.

Gary Horlocher [00:33:22] So we have a little bit of a difference there on the. The parents. But my mom grew up in kind of a dysfunctional family. She was a single mother right after my grandpa was in World War II, and they got divorced when they got back. So she raised five kids by herself as a single mother in the Depression years. And so those kids are all kind of a little bit more independent. And my dad was part of a very coherent family. His great grandparents had come from denmark in the 1870s or so. And so, you know, they don't let you be a pioneer descendant, son of the pioneers, unless your ancestors came before the 1860s because the railroad, 1862, I think. So I'm not a pioneer, but I am like a fifth generation on some of the. And some sides.

John Dehlin [00:34:18] That's so dumb. You don't qualify.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:21] You don't qualify.

Gary Horlocher [00:34:24] But no, I guess they have to have it cut off at some point. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:31] Okay, so a pretty orthodox Mormon upbringing then.

Gary Horlocher [00:34:35] Yeah. And I remember getting a testimony of each thing growing up, you know, getting the tingly in the spine and, you know, I remember reading each of the scriptures and getting a testimony of each of the scriptures, and I read a book on the presidents of the church and getting the tingly on each one of them, as it told us.

John Dehlin [00:34:56] But Jack, I got the tingly on prophets. I got the Book of Mormon offending people.

Gary Horlocher [00:35:01] But, you know, that's kind of the way I look at it now. But it wasn't, you know, it was like, oh, the tinkle's there. Is it because I'm cold or is it because this is true? And I figured it was always true if it was, you know, religious, but.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] Okay, all right, so you got all the tinglies. All right, so you did seminary and. And all that stuff.

Gary Horlocher [00:35:22] I loved high school. I love dances we did, my brother and I, we were kind of inseparable through a lot of high school. He's one year ahead of me, and we were in all the sports and would double date to all the school dances and the church dances. That kind of the same thing in Utah Valley.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] So I'm going to. I'm going to hop back and forth. So, Ernie, I didn't ask you about dating and kind of attractions because usually that emerges around age 13 for. For men. Do you want to talk just quickly about. Did you date? Did you. Did you knew you like, did you know you like guys back in high school?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:36:02] Did you first? I. I didn't date. Ironically, people are kind of surprised when they learned this about me as they know me now. I was kind of shy because you.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] Because they think of you as a player now. But back then,

Gary Horlocher [00:36:15] that was before he got with me.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:36:17] They always assume I'm really outgoing, right. But I generally wasn't in high school. I felt just intimidated, you know, as I say, we were deporters of the port. I went there, so I was anyway. But I did hang out with other guys who were from Mormon families but who were inactive and doing things that they shouldn't be doing. You know, smoking pot or drinking and things of that nature. But I never did any dating. And early on I. Some point I recognize my attraction to guys. We didn't even have the word gay then, but I instinctively knew that it would be not a smart idea to ever let that out. And interestingly, on my mission, you know how missionaries are buddies. Buddies. And I was in the office almost all my mission. We had one elder that would, you know, jokingly twist your tie and choke you and pull you down off your chair. And I grabbed his tie and I turned it and I didn't stop. I think about three or four missionaries took him off, said, you're going to kill him. And I said, that's right. And there's an explanation to that. I was so worried that if I was seen as not masculine or tough, that it would, you know, people would just suspect. So this was more in my head.

Gary Horlocher [00:37:43] Sissy, they used to call it. Yeah, yeah.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:37:45] And I had a companion that we're both aps. And he was a football player and he decided to wrestle me. And the next day the mission president said, elder Sorber, where did you get that big bruise on your head? And he said, don't wrestle. Elder Horseman self.

John Dehlin [00:38:05] So you're saying you were kind of overcompensating, I think.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:38:08] Masculine, absolutely. I always feared. It's kind of hard to. I'm not so sure how that works psychologically, but I was very guarded about any kind of idea that I might be attracted to guys. So.

John Dehlin [00:38:25] Yeah.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:38:26] Okay,

John Dehlin [00:38:28] so. So you definitely didn't. So you didn't date guys or girls growing up?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:38:37] No, and I might have dated some girls, but it was kind of, you know, appearances, I guess. Like, unlike Gary, I never went to a school dance, so I don't know what that's like now. That was then. My life changed after mission in Rick's college. But, you know, I didn't date very much at all, so. Okay,

John Dehlin [00:39:02] so I'll ask you the same. The same question, Gary. Yeah. You said you dated.

Gary Horlocher [00:39:11] Yeah, well, Utah Valley is. We were like the kings of dating. I don't know. I don't think we missed very many school dances. And we'd always go group dating because that was kind of the thing you do there. So you get the men's dance, guys choice dance, we called it. The. We would get me and my brother and maybe one other friend, and we'd all get dates and we'd go to a restaurant and dance and then take them home or get ice cream and take them home. Anyway, it worked really great. It was fun. Dancing was fun. I love to dance. And it was the kissing part that was hard. And so it was never a problem because we were actually encouraged not to kiss, not to be intimate. And, you know, I could dance close to girls. It didn't do anything for me, but it was fun and we had a great time. So my problem, it's just kind of like the inverse of Ernie, I guess. My problems came after my mission, when I couldn't turn it on beyond that. That was what worked, and that was what was expected in high school. As far as the same sex attraction, I just tried to present it wasn't there, tried to ignore it, turn it off. Just kind of hoping that. I mean, I thought that I was a normal kid like everyone else I remember. I can show you. I could talk about times like there was a little. There was a boy in the next class, younger than me, that was very attractive to me, and I always wanted to walk him home from school, even though it was out of my way. And. And. And it didn't really make any sense. But anyway, I wanted him to be my friend. And so I'd find people that were mostly minority student kids like Ernie, you know, Hispanic kids, I kind of like to get to know better. But anyway, I never allowed myself to fantasize about it or. Or even think that. I was always thinking that I was just having. We were all having fun in high school. This was not the time to be serious anyway, so.

Mormon Teachings on Sexuality and Shame

John Dehlin [00:41:22] Okay, so, I mean, for those who aren't familiar, you know, this, this. You both would have been raised in. In the era of Mormonism, where Miracle of Forgiveness by Spence W. Kimball would be kind of the prevailing view on sexuality, which would have taught that your core attractions were evil or perverse or an abomination. And. But it doesn't sound like either of you even had enough. Acknowledgment. Or insight to even feel some of that self loathing because you didn't even

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:41:59] let yourself get that far, respond to that. Because I think that that was one of the most harmful, psychologically harmful books that ever came out in terms of teenagers. You know, the Miracle of Forgiveness and how it condemned basic human sexuality and especially condemned any same sex type of orientation. And at least when I went on a mission, everybody was required to read that. And I have met many people, straight or gay, mostly straight, who just had horrible self esteem because of that book and really suffered because they felt, you know, they were not approved of by God because of, you know, their own. Any sexual urges or anything like that. I mean, it's just a. So I just wanted to respond to say, boy, I remember that book and I am so glad they stopped printing that. But it was really horrific. And then some of the ideas, if I may say, that the general authorities come up with makes me wonder what's really going on in their lives, in their heads. Because Markey Peterson wrote this pamphlet on how to, you know, keep from pleasuring yourself. And basically, in my opinion, it was almost like bondage. One on one, I thought, where's this guy getting this idea of tying yourself up and mummifying yourself so that you could resist these urges? I just thought it was kind of crazy. And I don't know if you remember in Miracle of Forgiveness, but Kimball talks about. And I never knew this happened and maybe it did, I don't care if it did, but guys getting together and jerking off and that was sure to lead to homosexuality. And I'm like, where's this guy coming from?

John Dehlin [00:43:49] Yeah, I think the book makes an association between male masturbation and homosexuality that if you masturbate it might make you gay. But also just, just like comparing being gay to perversions and bestiality and just really horrible associations. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:10] So would you say that you both were aware of those messages as a teen or not as much pre mission?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:44:20] I became aware and I read it. You know, incidentally, I had to be interviewed by a general authority and wait a year before I could go on my mission, you know, and that was not as much sexually related at all, except for maybe my partying around and, and drugs and things of that nature.

Gary Horlocher [00:44:41] I remember reading, reading the book on my mission, Kimball's book, and I didn't really get it. So I was kind of like you said, a little bit clueless about the issues they were talking about. But I also remember twice, at least in my childhood, looking at one of my brother's comic books or bodybuilder magazines and getting turned on at the images and feeling guilty for that. But I, I think my sexuality was more like. You've mentioned, John, that I was, it was easier for me to control. Maybe I threw myself into the school and, and genealogy and just didn't have the typical what you hear. A lot of men are really tormented by masturbation. And that was. I did remember going to the stake president and he's getting this, you know, your interview to go on a mission. He's like, so do you masturbate? And I'm like, I wasn't sure what that was. You know, I heard this word. It was like some evil, evil thing. But I wasn't sure if that's what I did when I looked at those comic books, those two or three times. And so I was like, okay, I don't think so. And he thinks, he says, I think you're lying. And I said, oh my goodness, he thinks I'm lying. Does he know something I don't know about me? And I was trying to just really hector me up because I knew I hadn't done anything. And so I went back to the bishop and I explained to him kind of all those details of those few times that I was turned on. And he says, oh, you're okay then. So I went back to the state president, I said, I talked to the bishop about that and he said I was okay. But I wasn't even sure what the word masturbation meant. I guess we just live in a fantasy kind of a G rated world down in Utah Valley. At least that was my world. And it was pretty typical of a lot of people. Kind of a G rated world. And you just group date and you don't ever do more than just. If you kiss, you don't do any more than a peck. They talk about, I remember all these young adult things talking about what they call through the clothes. Petting. They call it petting. And so they're always talking about petting and whether it's hard core or like core. I forgot they had a word for that. Anyway, whether they're getting close to the edge or not. I was never close to the edge. I was way. We had this virgin whip club that meant you didn't ever kiss a girl in high school. That was our big thing. But it was just, it was a fun, carefree time. But I'm sorry for those that really struggle. I know that my story isn't typical there.

John Dehlin [00:47:38] Yeah,

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:47:41] okay.

Mission Experiences and Their Impact

John Dehlin [00:47:43] We don't have time to really dig into your missions, but I know. Well, missions are always formative for. For Mormon youth, almost always. And. And Ernie, I know yours particularly was really formative. From what I read in your.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:47:56] I can succinctly address it and say that I had an unusual mission. Six months into it, I was in upstate New York and those who aren't Mormon, that is Mormon land, where it all happened with the Hill Cumorah and the Joseph Smith display of the Cumorah pageant and everything. Six months into my mission, our mission president had done his duty and left. And we got a new mission president. And he called me into the office, and without any formality, it took me a while to realize he was calling me in to be an assistant. And he never let me go. So I got.

John Dehlin [00:48:34] That's a real honor. It means you're basically one of the top two missionaries in the whole mission of two or 300 missionaries. Right?

Gary Horlocher [00:48:41] Yeah.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:48:41] Well. And I think there's a reason why he did that. And maybe I just quickly share one thing. Three months into it, this was a very successful individual. Two buildings are named after him in Chevy Chase, Maryland. He was worth about half a billion then and had a personal contact, friendship with Hinckley and would actually call him, you know, and talk.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] Do you want to say his name or do you not want to say his name?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:49:03] Oh, Milton Allen Barlow. I think he's passed away now. There's the Barlow building in Chevy Chase and One Park North. Those are both his buildings. So he's very wealthy, very accomplished individual.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] You know how he made his money?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:49:16] Real estate.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] Okay.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:49:19] And came. Poor guy, came from Pingree, Idaho. But anyway, so he. Three months into it, being his assistant, he called me into his office by myself, which made me really nervous. But he said, the mission president needs counsel. I'm like, oh, damn. I mean, I didn't say that, but I don't know. And I said, what? What's the matter, President? And he said, I've tried everything. And indeed he had. We had triplicate reports. I mean, it was just like, run like a corporation. And he says, I'm failing. I guess I had an insight then because I told him, I said, president, you have so much to offer with your knowledge and experience, but missionaries don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And then he started to cry. But he changed him. And the second part of just succeeding, addressing the mission, was that I owe it to him that at the end of the mission, he said, there is no Way, you're not going to college. I've made a donation to Ricks College. And your first year is paid for. That started a journey for my family. None of us, except my one brother also returned missionary, went beyond high school at that time. And so that changed my life. I mean, I went to Rick's, I went to byu, I went to BYU law school. It just kept going. And so I owe that to him. And that was really nice.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] That's nice. That's super nice. Yeah, that's a real honor. And that must have felt great. And to go from. I think my brother had a similar experience. To go from being not really into church all of a sudden to like an assistant to the president within a short amount of time. That's gotta. That's got to be kind of validating and kind of help turbocharge your Mormon experience after having a season or two away. Is that right?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:51:16] Yeah, that's accurate. I enjoyed my missions and I realized a lot of missionaries, if they're honest about, was really hard and they didn't enjoy it. And candidly, I didn't enjoy proselytting, but I hardly ever did it. And a lot of missionaries were struggling with depression, anxiety, and often they would turn to me and this is really awkward, but they kind of want to confess to me because they were afraid of the President. And I would talk to the president and say, hey, so and so needs to talk to you, but, you know, be gentle. And my advice is, you know, be loving. And everybody makes mistakes.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] Yeah.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:52:01] And apparently one more thing. All the missionaries always seem to love having blessings from me because I'm the kind of guy that's going to tell you, you're wonderful, your Heavenly Father loves you, you need to love yourself, and everything's going to be okay.

Gary Horlocher [00:52:15] I think if we continue that life course of the trajectory that we started on, Ernie would be a patriarch somewhere giving blessings. So we did that interview and they called us the gatriarchs. So that was kind of fun.

John Dehlin [00:52:34] Beautiful. Okay, thanks for sharing that, Ernie. Gary, anything you want to say about your mission that was really formative or important?

Gary Horlocher [00:52:40] I went to Norway, so the language has been a big part of my life ever since my mission. It was very difficult, I don't think. I don't know. I hate to say negative things about it because it's always. It's always like, people tune out as soon as they hear something negative. Like, okay, I wish I hadn't asked this person, I don't want to hear any more of this. But it felt Like a jail sentence, a prison sentence. And as a believer, I totally believed. I read through all the scriptures all again, I tried, I tried, I tried. It is a tough place. People there are nice, but they're just not interested in religion and that, you know, we just had something we were selling, something nobody wanted, I guess, for two years. It's a beautiful place. The northern lights were a reward on those cold nights when you're out in this super cold weather and there's no clouds, and then you look up and it's like, wow, there's a. It's like looking at the fireworks. It's a beautiful thing. So, no, I didn't have the greatest mission. I was a trainer. That's as hard as. As far as I got. It seems like Ernie and I are kind of slightly different on a lot of these things, but.

John Dehlin [00:54:03] Yeah, excellent. Okay. And I can tell that's kind of emotional for you. Yeah, I'm. I can tell that's kind of close to your heart.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:54:13] Yeah.

Gary Horlocher [00:54:14] And I don't want to say anything negative because I guess it's taboo in Mormon culture to say anything negative. And people love their missions. It's their time of coming to themselves, I think, like Ernie's story, you know, his high school was not that time. It was his mission that did it, so. And I don't feel neglected, and I think there are great things about my time. It's just the missionizing was not the great part.

John Dehlin [00:54:41] So for you it was. If you just wanted to summarize, you

Gary Horlocher [00:54:44] didn't like, you know, I got a little tingly in my back that I should extend my mission. So I extended another six weeks at the end. And that's. I'm not going to get into that story, but. So I really tried hard, but it was like kind of count. I don't know. It's counting the days. You know, when you start two years is a long time to count days.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:11] That really, really says something to the. About your experience. Listening to the tingly, if I might say that. It sounds so rough, so challenging, so isolating in a way that you would extend. You would extend. You were counting down the days, but you got the tingly and you would extend it.

Gary Horlocher [00:55:36] Yeah. I was definitely a true believer.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] I'm sorry. It was so painful.

Gary Horlocher [00:55:46] Yeah, Yeah. I like to hear the stories from South America, but I guess they had their own challenges, too. Kind of a different scenario.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] Sounds like you're. You're kind of saying, just not a lot of people were interested. So you weren't having many Baptisms. And so you're just kind of. It's drudgery.

Gary Horlocher [00:56:02] No, we knock on doors and we pick. In the wintertime, we pick a big apartment building where you can be indoors, and in the winter it's a little harder, but we'd just go from door to door. And I remember it getting close to. I don't remember if it was 9 or 9:30 when we'd quit, but we'd just be like, I hope they don't let us in. I don't want to have to talk to somebody right now. And when we're outside, it's like you start. You're so. You know, the cold is fine as long as you're still in the cold, but if someone lets you in, it all melts. And then it's wet and then you have to go back out again a half hour later and nobody's really interested. I don't know, it's just. It is different than a lot of the mission stories, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:56:46] Yeah.

Gary Horlocher [00:56:46] And. And, you know, I love Europe now and I. We've been back and I love going there as a tourist. I think it'd be fun to live there. They have mountains and it's just spectacular coastline. But. Yeah. Anyway.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:57:03] Yeah, thanks.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] Thanks for sharing. Okay, so you get home. Let's just say we'll go back to you, Ernie. You get home from your mission and the thing to do if. If you were told to do what a lot of us were told to do, it's to get married as soon as you can and have as many kids as possible. Is that kind of the instruction you got?

Mixed-Orientation Marriages and Coming Out

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:57:25] Sort of.

John Dehlin [00:57:26] Okay.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:57:26] I would say. I went to Rick's college and definitely, like Gary, I was a devout believer by then, and of course, the idea of marriage. And so that's when I started going to dances. Kind of awkward to bring this out, but I went to a dance and saw initially what I thought, wait a minute, that looks like just a very handsome young man.

Gary Horlocher [00:57:51] Blonde hair.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:57:52] Blonde hair, blue eyes. Okay, we know my type. And her name was Cindy. And over time, she fell in love with me.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] Now, what do you mean she looked like a man? Or did I misunderstand?

Gary Horlocher [00:58:06] She had a shorter hairstyle.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:58:07] She looked like a young adult.

John Dehlin [00:58:11] Okay.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:58:11] Actually, you know, very. It was like ambidextrous or whatever you call it, where you're saying androgynous. Androgynous.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:19] So, like gender expression, maybe.

John Dehlin [00:58:21] So her gender expression was more neutral.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:58:25] It appeared that way to me. She had a dress on, just her appearance. Even as I think of it. I still remember this. I was just like, stunned. And I thought to myself, well, maybe. Maybe this is my answer. Maybe this is what can work. So she, over the time, over the semester, it was clear she was falling in love with me, sending me a lot of gifts. And so I went to my then bishop student ward, and that was the first time ever in my life that I disclosed to anybody that I had an attraction to men.

John Dehlin [00:59:02] What year was this approximately?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:59:04] See, 1975. 76. 70. 75. I started Rick's, I think, or 77. 77, I think.

John Dehlin [00:59:11] Okay. And you disclosed that you had attraction to men.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:59:16] Right. We didn't even have the word gay then.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] Yeah.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [00:59:18] So he was. I really liked this guy. Very nice, trying to do his best. And he said, well, can I give you a blessing? And that's why he said I was a devout believer. And if you're a devout believer, well, of course you're going to say, what? Please. Yes. In that blessing, he told me that I should go ahead and marry Cindy a not disclose it. My issue. And in due time, the Lord would reveal to me that I could and she would help me. And so I followed his advice and got married my second year. The tea when I was at Rick's. And so that's how that started for

John Dehlin [01:00:06] those who would have no idea what this would be like. What's it. What. How could you summarize being married to someone that you might not necessarily be sexually attracted to? How was that for you?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:00:20] Or.

John Dehlin [01:00:20] And I'm assuming some people can be bisexual. And so maybe you were attracted to.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:00:26] I think. And I like your question because I know people that are on this Kinsey scale that are definitely, like, if it goes up to six or seven, whatever it is, or an absolute six. And I recognize I might be more of a five because of what you say there might be a bisexuality. And Gary has noticed that when I find females attractive, you almost have to look twice and say, oh, I didn't know that was a female. And usually, you know, very. That kind of might give you an idea. So. But I think it's a great struggle for many because as my story moves on, I was involved in Gamma fights gay Mormon fathers. This is after my divorce.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] We're jumping ahead.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:01:12] Yeah. And I'm just saying that I've met a lot of men who were Mormon who got into marriages and had children and. And they'd have a lot to say to the question that you just posed that, yeah, it has its challenges, but.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] But for you, you're Saying there was. Let's say you're a five on the Kinsey scale, which means you're predominantly attracted to men. But you had. I can make it a small amount of attraction to women. So it wasn't. And then there's also aversion. It sounds like you didn't experience aversion.

Gary Horlocher [01:01:49] Aversion.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:01:50] No, I hear you. No, no, I didn't. I mean, you know, we had three children and, And. But still, the thing I think that needs to be pointed out, maybe that you're also kind of alluding to is see in. And a lot of people think the idea, especially if they're very active Mormon, well, maybe if I do this and do everything that the Lord wants me to do, this will go away. And the opposite, in my opinion, happens by not acting on it, by withholding, it only grows in intensity.

John Dehlin [01:02:24] Michael Quinn talked about that when I interviewed him a long time ago. And I mean, one of the things I've realized is that one of the ways we do a disservice to this whole conversation is by reducing relationships to sexuality. Because there are all sorts of different dimensions to a relationship. There's who we want to be friends with, there's who we want to have fun with. There's who we want to connect with. There's. There's aesthetic attraction, there's emotional. Emotional attractions. There's intellectual attraction.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:02:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:02:56] And so I guess your level of sexual attraction to your wife, your former wife, would only be one dimension of all the many ways you were probably seeking fulfillment as well. Is that fair?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:03:11] Absolutely. In many cases, not all, you know, children make a huge difference. You love your children, and now you, you know, you're busy in school, you have all of these obligations, but there is this joy of having these kids who rely on you. And that's part of the re. Almost a redemption, you know, of, hey, this is hard. But look at these kids I have now. You know, so I felt like. And now I do feel like I have the best of both worlds. I have children, I have grandchildren, and I have Gary.

Gary Horlocher [01:03:43] I think sometimes these gay Mormons that have been in marriages, it's almost like in order to shut off their attractions, they also are shutting off their emotions. And so they're shutting off their emotions to their own children and to the wife that they do have. And so they become kind of like zombies. That's the goal. But that's, that's not a life you'd want for the wife. I mean, you know, we have such a male oriented religion that we think about the man and we don't think about the wife and what she should have.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:20] Yeah, so true.

John Dehlin [01:04:23] Yeah, that's important.

Gary Horlocher [01:04:24] So.

John Dehlin [01:04:25] So you're attracted enough to your wife, you love your kids and you're busy with your job and with church service. Is it fair to say you weren't super miserable in your mixed orientation marriage then, or you were just not super miserable?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:04:41] I was frustrated. I have two gay brothers and when I started to see their lives and how they had lovers or just were living joyously, I. That was hard and I just kept it to myself. But that was really hard because I thought, wait a minute, you know, they're happy. I mean, you get told in the Mormon Church, you know, oh, sin and how bad it is and unhappiness and miserableness. And that's not what I was seeing and that's not what I was experiencing with the, with my brothers and their relations and with my lesbian sister. I have a very unusual family. Two gay brothers, lesbian sisters.

John Dehlin [01:05:24] So, okay, that's a lot of LGBT in one family.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:05:27] It was the water in that area.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] Yeah. Four out of what, nine?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:05:36] Eleven.

John Dehlin [01:05:36] Four out of eleven were LGBT that you know of?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:05:40] Well, I would say a fifth one is, is. Is. What's it called by bisexual.

Gary Horlocher [01:05:45] It'll be interesting to see in the next generation or two in the Mormon church. But with large families, there's going to be a higher incidence. And they know the biological studies show that it's higher probability with each boy in the family that they'll be a case end.

John Dehlin [01:06:01] So something to do with hormonal washes in the womb, sort of brain.

Gary Horlocher [01:06:06] Yeah, the mother's body is creating antibodies and stuff and feminizing the fetus. And you know, there's these kinds of theories to explain it, but yeah, it does happen in a statistically significant number.

John Dehlin [01:06:20] So that's awesome. Okay, so you were, you were okay, Ernie, but you were frustrated that you felt like you were missing out on something. Is that fair to say?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:06:30] That's a very accurate portrayal.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] Okay. And. And really quickly, let's take it through to the marriage not working out.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:06:40] So I remember I had mentioned to you that blessing.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] Yeah, yeah.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:06:44] Eight years later, I'm in law school. We got three kids, I'm very busy. And my wife Cindy, Saturday morning as we woke up, said, hey. I said, what's going on? He said, I could tell just from her face. Well, I've had a dream, and in that dream I saw you. And then I entered your body and looked outward and felt what you felt. And I was like, okay, what did you feel? And she said, an attraction to men. Is it true? I'd never lied to her. So I said, yes, but I haven't acted on it. With hindsight, sometime later, I realized that that was actually the beginning of the end of our marriage.

John Dehlin [01:07:34] And what was going on there, from her perspective, do you think?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:07:39] Say that again.

John Dehlin [01:07:39] What was going on from her perspective?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:07:41] Well, I think what was really sad is first thought that maybe she. It was her problem, not mine. And I was trying to assure her, no, it's, you know, that she thought, hey, am I inadequate? Or something of that nature? Then also.

John Dehlin [01:07:54] So she was feeling like you weren't that attracted, you weren't that into her. Is that what she was?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:07:59] She felt that. Yet it was a risk to our relationship. And not only that, I had forgotten this bit. This is years ago, but apparently Cindy had called Gordon Hinckley. I don't know what position. He handled it down. And he visited with her and basically kind of gave her, like, the permission. Okay, that, you know, you could end the. It's okay to end the marriage. And so we struggled with that. And actually, without detail, we did get into a divorce, and we got remarried again, trying to make it work. And then I got a clerkship at the court and Nevada. Nevada, with a Nevada Supreme Court justice who was very lds, very good guy, good man. And one day I came home for lunch and the wife and the kids. And then that evening when I came home, everything was gone except the bed and a few kitchen items. And I panicked. And I called to the ship, and he said he didn't know anything about it. I learned sometime later he had orchestrated the whole thing. So it was a tough time in my life. So.

John Dehlin [01:09:18] But wait, let me just. I want to slow down on that. So your wife, at some point senses you're probably gay. You acknowledge it, but you stay in the marriage, and within a year or two from that, your bishop is include in. And you're saying your bishop and your wife decide that maybe the way to handle that was to have her just move out with.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:09:41] I'm not sure. You know, I think it was her decision, but I think she went directly to the bishop. Actually, I need to say this, too. She had gone to my justice that I was looking for and outed me with the concern that I. I wasn't coming home. I was out there, you know, late. And I think she probably thought I was messing around. But the fact is, I was studying for the Nevada bar, so that was really a missed shot. There and. But what was also interesting is it was actually a horrific time. I couldn't find my family for about a month. However, I had contacted a prior bishop at BYU who knew us well, and he tracked her down, and they basically said to her, you know, what you're doing is illegal. You need to make contact with Ernie. And interestingly, my judge, who is very active lds, said, ernie, you need to file for a divorce in Nevada, because if you do in Utah, it will not go well for you. And I think he took that position by that time because he just got to know me, you know, so that made a difference to him. He knew I wasn't some scoundrel, and he had his own opinions about. I'm sure they're very conservative opinions about being gay or anything like that. But he counseled me and said it would be best, I think, if you got legal representation in Nevada. So that is what I did.

Family Reactions and the Emotional Fallout

John Dehlin [01:11:12] What was it like, emotionally, to come home to a completely empty house and your wife and kids having deserted you?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:11:18] It was hell. It was very hard. I rarely. I don't know why, but I guess we're all different psychologically depending upon what we've experienced in life. But I've rarely cried in my life, and I wept. It was really hard. And it was especially hard because of the kids. And my kids were really upset. And finally, also what happened is my daughter told me one day, because Cindy kept making up stories of why they had to go and dad wasn't there. But one day she said, all three of us refused to get out of bed all day, said, we want to talk to our dad. So it was pretty rough. And I think I'm able to talk about that now because my life's in a very good place. But, yeah, it was hard. It was hard.

John Dehlin [01:12:05] I'm so sorry. How old were your kids during that time, approximately?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:12:11] We're talking about 8, 7, and 5.

John Dehlin [01:12:18] And you had. It's not like you were dating men privately and secretly.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:12:22] No. Nothing was going on while we were at the court.

John Dehlin [01:12:25] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:26] But she had kind of suspected and then gone in. Is that right? And then in. In trying to explore what you were doing or trying to find an answer. Outed you.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:12:38] I think when I reflect on it now, is that. And I. I psyched with Cindy it wasn't going to work, and she was looking for a way out, and she got empathy and help from the church or from the church leader.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] I mean, if I'm trying to be empathetic for probably what she was thinking and feeling, Number one, I think, Gary, you make the point that it's probably no picnic for a woman to not be truly loved and embraced and desired by her partner. So there were probably elements that were hard for her. But then if she was taught how evil same sex attraction was, if she was taught the stuff out of that miracle forgiveness book that we talked about earlier, then to her, you must have been a ticking time bomb of. I mean, I'm going to say something really shocking, like a ticking time bomb of perversion and. And filth and awfulness that she didn't want to invest in any further. I know that's offensive language, but that would be a Mormon mindset in the 70s and 80s, I think.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:13:43] I think you hit it on the nail. One of the things that was hardest, which eventually I got all cleared up, but what's really painful is she assumed that since I was gay, that the children were at risk of being abused. And then she suspected that it might be happening, and that just really fell through because it wasn't. But it was really hard to deal with those kinds of

Gary Horlocher [01:14:10] associations. See, they would associate homosexuality with perversion, hurting children, animals and. And even masturbation, you know, gets put thrown in there. So all those things are just taboo nowadays. We are able to talk about things.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:14:31] So she was a product of the times, as you say, John, of how people thought then.

John Dehlin [01:14:37] Yeah, and I just. I saw something the other day that, like, this is just, like, a little bit unrelated, but kind of. It's like, what's more common to see in the news, A Mormon bishop abusing a child or a transgender human abusing a child? I don't know that we've ever seen a news story of a transgender child abusing a child. Here in Utah, we see every month a new Mormon bishop abusing a child. So, like, that's just kind of like one indirect way to kind of make the point that associating child abuse with any form of being LGBTQ is so out of place when there are much bigger, way bigger threats from a per capita perspective. Yeah, it's just completely inappropriate. But it was the. It was the water we all swam in growing up as Mormons, and probably not just as Mormons, but in the United States and probably the world at some level. It's just. This is something we've had to learn.

Gary Horlocher [01:15:38] Yeah, I think it's still in the. In the minds of some of my. Our generation. I think some of my siblings still have those kind of reactions. So, you know, hopefully, you know, we always look at our grandparents and think, when will this generation die and we can move on? But it's hard to see that it's still there.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:56] That conditioning. Right? That conditioning just.

Gary Horlocher [01:16:00] Anyway.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:00] Oh, that's just so much to hold, so painful.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:16:05] Well, and I was going to mention that in Gary's case, once we had started seeing each other and together, he had a. His younger sister boycott a reunion because we were going to be there. So. And that was a while ago. Things have changed. But again, it was kind of like the culture then. She didn't want her kids to even, you know, see Gary. And yet many of his siblings, he's tended to kids, they've been had loving relationships, and all of a sudden that went south.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:33] Can I ask you a question around that?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:16:34] Sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:35] Do you feel. How. How do you. How have you each dealt with grief and loss and the anger that comes from feeling so profoundly misunderstood? So profoundly. Like, I would just. I. I would guess that that is, like, something that requires attention. I'm just curious.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:17:02] I went to therapy. That helped a lot. But answering this question from the perspective where I am at now, I realize no one has an easy story in life. All of us are subject to suffering as being human as well as joy. And so it softened me a bit. I mean, people often act out of good intentions, not realizing the harm they do. And I think it's important maybe to get past it or even forget, but it doesn't mean you have to not. You know, you can still remember. And it teaches you to set boundaries, you know, so that there's something to be gained as to avoiding that. And it's been painful. I think it's been more painful for Gary because he's had a really close relationship with siblings, unlike I have closer relationship with my siblings now that we're older, very close. But Gary seems to just really the kind of relationships I have with my siblings now. And he mentioned the brother. They did everything together. And one day we were running in the neighborhood, and Gary wanted to drop off some chocolates at the house, and the brother's teenage sons were there. And he wrote an email and in capital letters about half a dozen times, said, do not ever come to my home unless I am there. You know, and this was the brother he had done everything with. And so, yeah, it's painful.

Gary Horlocher [01:18:29] And I think that. I think that there's a lot of rationality I use to deal with this. You know, I realize that life is not fair. I realize in my childhood I was rewarded for a lot of things that were not. I mean, if I don't have the same sex drive as someone else. Why should they feel guilty? And I noticed and feel like I'm special and why should I feel special for being a genealogist when I really just love problem solving and putting puzzles together? And I don't know, I just think there's so many things that are just not fair in this world and maybe it was time for me to feel some of that inequality and be the victim of it to understand better the way black people, Hispanic people, a lot of people are judged for things that are just totally unfair. And I think that. Well, I'm sure we'll get into the family part of it a little bit later.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:19:28] But yeah, I did want to say though, in response to what he had asked Margi, what was a great help to me as well as others in my similar situation was affirmation, which I didn't even know who that or what that was. Gay and Lesbian Mormons had a newsletter and my brother sent it to me. This is after my divorce. And in there was a little, little article that somebody said, hey, are there any other gay Mormon fathers out there? I would like to get together. And so we got together, 12 of us as a matter of fact. That's where I met Mark, who I had a 13 year relationship with. He was one of the original. He came up with the term Gamma Fights, you know, Nephites, Lehigh Gammaphites. Only Mormons will get that.

John Dehlin [01:20:15] But anyway, that stands for gay gay Mormon Fathers.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:20:18] Gay Mormon fathers. So everybody. And it was pre Internet. And this leads up to how I met Gary because eventually we don't want to jump too fast. So anyway, but I'm saying that helped a lot. And almost twice a year we would have retreats, we try to keep them budgeted, hold it in people's homes and we'd have seminars on how to deal with divorce, how to deal with your children, safe sex, all that kind of thing. And that was a huge help on how do you deal with the grief, with the pain and with the struggle of losing a marriage.

John Dehlin [01:20:50] Yeah, yeah, Will does. That was a great. That was a great question and that was a great topic. And we'll come. Let's come back to that. I don't want to lose the timeline a tiny bit, but that was important. Was there a part of you, Ernie, that was happy that your wife left you and that. That you were kind of released from that marriage?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:21:15] The word is relieved.

John Dehlin [01:21:18] Not happy, but relieved.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:21:20] Relieved in that now I had to make my choices and determine where I was Going to go in life. And at that time, I was also very busy. There's financial obligations to support the family. I'm now starting my career, you know, and I had met a friend who is still really close friends with us and now has moved to Salt Lake to be retired near us. But she was also clerking for a judge in Nevada Supreme Court. And we both ended up going to California, helping each other out, that is, you know, I'd support her while she's standing for debar. She supported me while I was supporting. I was studying for the bar. And so

Gary Horlocher [01:22:03] I think that he needed that. Marilyn. I should say her name. Yeah, it's okay to say her name. Anyway, she provided him with a safe place, somebody that understood and could give him support and help. I think, you know, he would just lose himself gambling in Nevada. And, you know, this just was a place where he could have easily just hit bottom and not come up again. So Marilyn has been important part of our family for what she did to help him through that stage.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] So it was a simultaneous heartbreak and a strong sense of relief to be released from that marriage.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:22:49] Of course. Right. Because now the first thing on my mind is, wait a minute. So now here I am. How old was I then? I don't know, 30s, 40s, or whatever. Right. And like other gay Mormon fathers, okay, how do I date? How do I meet people? You know, how do I. How do I. Whatever, whatever, whatever. And, you know, part of that is adventurous. Part of is that, oh, my goodness, you know, gee, am I having feelings like a teenager has and addressing those things. When you're young, it was also awkward stages. You go through teenage, but an exciting time of life. I tend to be quite social and get into groups. And before I knew it, you know, I knew a lot of people, so that helped.

John Dehlin [01:23:33] So you're saying it was scary and exciting, but I'm just trying to zero in on. On. I guess you've already said it. Just feeling relieved that you weren't in the marriage anymore because it wasn't. It wasn't meeting your core needs. Is that fair? And it wasn't meeting her core needs.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:23:51] Absolutely. That's one of the things, actually, I. I haven't said much about, but I really feel for Cindy and for the women that are in this situation and that I had actually stated, I think, in the podcast years ago that I did. I said that I wish there was a greater effort, particularly in the church, to provide support, guidance for women in this situation, because it's very painful to them, you know, and so, so, yeah,

John Dehlin [01:24:22] yeah, so it probably wasn't great. And, and we've covered this in the past on Mormon stories. And my, my, a lot of my dissertation work for my PhD was around quality of life for celibacy, which we'll get to in a second, and for mixed orientation marriages in the Mormon LGBTQ community. But quality of life was very low. Self reported quality of life was very low for participants in mixed orientation marriages. Depression was high, sexual identity distress was high, all the bad things were high and all the good things were low for people in these. And divorce rates were twice the national average. Upwards of 70% of these marriages ended in divorce. And I'm not even sure we could say the ones that didn't end in divorce were successes. Right. So I mean, there's been generations of Mormons who of game gay or lesbian Mormons that were kind of pushed or blessed or nudged into these mixed orientation marriages that just pretty much harmed everyone, including the kids in many ways. Right?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:25:33] Yes. Yeah, I agree with that.

John Dehlin [01:25:36] And, and, and in some ways the church has kind of backed off a little bit, but it, in some ways it's still, it's still going on. Right?

Gary Horlocher [01:25:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:46] So, yeah. Well, thank you for being willing to share that. At least as I think about where we are in your story. I'm sad for your Cindy, I'm sad for you. I'm sad for your family and your kids that everything had to kind of blow up. But I'm also happy that both you and Cindy are getting a second chance to find partners that you really want to stick with. So I'm sad and happy at this part of your story, Ernie,

Margi Dehlin [01:26:16] and where you can feel fully seen and be fully actualized and fully embodied as yourself in a relationship as opposed to, you know, have core pieces of yourself.

Gary Horlocher [01:26:32] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:34] Okay. Well, Gary, your story was you at the celibacy, you know, between the two of you were covering two main paths. You went to celibacy route. Do you want to tell us about your post mission and.

Celibacy, Reparative Therapy, and the Church

Gary Horlocher [01:26:45] Yeah, I guess. And maybe this is not typical, I don't know. But the celibacy route for some of us at least is naive at first because we're just not thinking about our own attractions. We're trying to find somebody that will turn that on and make it happen. And we don't know necessarily that we're that different than other people. But in Mormonism, after you come home from your mission, there's a lot of pressure, especially on the men to get married. And you know, we have all these Single women in the church and the men are just being jealous. Selfish, I guess is the word. Selfish if they don't just grab one of them and get married. So I don't know, that's kind of the narrative that you feel. And I think it wasn't too big at 21 when I got back, but as I got closer to 30, it was starting to become a major problem.

John Dehlin [01:27:44] Wait, what happened in those 10 years? What was your life like?

Gary Horlocher [01:27:47] So I was going to school. Linguistics was my major at that time. Got a master's degree. So I always wanted to get married. I taught to pray for when the time comes to have a wife and children every day. My parents taught me to say that. And it became a part of my own goals and identity. Not knowing for sure what that meant. I mean, now I kind of have a broader perspective, but I definitely wanted all that. So I was a self employed genealogist going through college. I had my own business. Then I got hired by the church. I was over at the Danish Collection and a consultant for European research when people needed help. And during this time I decided to. I had an uncle that had built houses in Nevada. So I decided to. I went out to visit him to find out kind of from somebody that's done it. He says, you can do the house plans yourself. Sure, you can do this yourself. So I bought a lot, quarter, a third of an acre, end of a cul de sac in West Valley. And then for the next year I drew up the house plans. And then over the next seven years, I built this house basically with research how to do plumbing and how to do. I had a friend help me with the framing part of it. And we had a big work party when we had to put up the big beam across the top. And I was afraid we nearly killed my uncle when it broke loose for a few seconds for a little bit. But it was. Anyway, that was, this was my attempt to get this family because I need, you know, if I'm not married, I might as well build a house and then there'll be a place for the family. And we've built it with lots of bedrooms and kitchen, two kitchens, 4,000 square feet, five bathrooms.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:29:48] You know, build it and she will come, right?

Gary Horlocher [01:29:50] So we had this movie. It was. What was the movie?

John Dehlin [01:29:53] Field of Dreams.

Gary Horlocher [01:29:54] Field of Dreams. If you build it, they will come. And that was kind of my thinking that by the time I finished this house, then I would have a wife and I could start my family.

John Dehlin [01:30:05] But what was, you know, many of us just got Home from our missions, dated and then got married. What was, what was kind of.

Gary Horlocher [01:30:12] So I guess I had this pattern over and over again that, that I would date for, go on two dates with different women. And after the two dates it was kind of like, let's put off, you know, I just say, well, I'll call you sometime. Anyway, I just didn't want to give her that kiss at the end, you know, and you can't do more than two dates without starting intimacy with somebody because that's kind of weird. And so I just didn't feel like. So anyway, this kept on going and I thought, well, eventually, you know, I hear stories that something clicks and you find your one true love or somebody will be attractive and. And I just kept dating and kept dating and couldn't find anyone that I wanted to do the kissing with. And you know, there's one point I should tell this story, but I don't. Anyway, I was at the family history library working and there was a gal that worked there too. And we'd see each other and I've always liked. I mean, if you're not got brown skin, you have to have at least dark hair for my orientation. So I'd always look at the women with the. And this long dark hair. Just the beautiful gal the way that I thought, well, maybe it would work with her. So I asked her on a date and at the end of the date she said to me that if I had asked her to marry her, she would say yes. And you know, this is the first date. And I was like, wow, maybe this is my chance, you know, where am I going to have a chance like this ever again? And so I went to the temple and I fasted and I must have gone through three sessions and I had some weird kind of insights that didn't make sense, but I thought maybe they were encouragements. I mean, that may be another story too where you daydream something and you think you see a child and oh, I must have had that child with this woman. But it was like she and I were in the pre existence and we were talking to each other and she was trying to convince me to do something. And I kept saying, I don't think I can. And anyway, it was a weird thing, but I finally decided to make the leap of faith. And so I asked her and I did it over the intercom at the family history library. So again, I don't always anticipate that everybody in the library that I know is going to want to come down and see me and See what her answer is. Anyway, it was pretty intense, but we got engaged and I met her family for Christmas and, and, and I broke it off right after that because it just was kind of frightening to me, some of the family issues that she had. And I was afraid that I was going to be caught up in that. Her dad had visions and, and had a pre lives where he was important people and in pre lives and they were creating an identity for me. And I just, wow. I just like, okay, I can't deal with this on top of everything else. But what happened after that is it kind of led me to this depression mode where that was the closest I got and how could I ever get that close again? Because that was kind of a fluke that she even was that, you know, I didn't have attraction, sexual or intimate attraction, but I was kind and she loved my kindness towards her and caring and except for maybe how I treated, how I reacted to her family, that was hard. But anyway, so then I got depressed and the house was getting close to being done and I had to make all the decisions on the coloring and, and all these things that I had hoped that a woman could help me with. And so I was living in the basement, my mom was living upstairs. And I just, you know, one part of the problem here is that Mormonism says we're on this journey, you know, the hero's journey. And we're going to eventually become gods and goddesses and we'll have planets. And it's like, okay, I made it to this life. That's a step. I got the testimony, I got the journey, but now I can't get married. There's no, no more. There's no, you can't go any further in this process without that marriage. And it was like I was supposed to go through the rest of eternity as a single person. It's like, and then being. And then the way you're treated at church, like, you know, here's a bunch of single women in this ward. Why aren't you interested in them? And you know, I'm doing Boy Scout stuff and, you know, I came home late, like an hour late one day. The boys had come over and we had done this activity and it was an hour past the time. And one of the mothers didn't know her son was going to come over after school. And she had created a hell storm for me and had complained to all the neighbors. And by the time I got back, even though there was legitimate reasons, you know, in her mind, I had taken the boys somewhere and was abusing them or something because she just let me have it and didn't stop for half hour. I don't know. I just. The stuff that I went through, you know, I was a boy Scout leader, a Cub Scout leader. I went through the training. I knew never to be alone with the boys. I was going to always keep those boundaries to protect myself. But just being a single man in that position puts you in a position that they talk about you and think things about you. And so anyway, that wasn't really the problem. The problem was I couldn't go any further on eternal progression. And I couldn't see any reason to live any further if I. And, you know, I didn't want to die either, because that doesn't solve your problems in Mormonism. But I couldn't imagine living the rest of my life with a goal that I could never achieve. And so I bought some rat poison and a bunch of pills. I guess my mom found out and she. She kind of. She got rid of them, but that was kind of low. And I feel like, as I think back, you know, when you're so believing you've had those tingles, you know, absolute. I mean, you think you know absolute, you've got certainty. You know those tingles. Tell me something is true, I'll jump off the cliff. Just, you know, you tell me anything and I feel those tingles, I'm going to do it, because that's truth, and that's how much I believed in it. And so, Let's see. Oh, anyway, I was in this stage, kind of the depression was getting worse and worse, and I was starting to plan out scenarios where I could do something about it to kind of end it. And a woman that I had dated once before called me up and said, hey, I'd like to go do this Timpanogos hike, and I'd like to talk to you. Would you be available to come go for this hike? And so we're on this hike, and she's telling me about this Evergreen group that she and this other guy that she had been dating and engaged to had been going to this group. And I was just so fascinated by it, I just couldn't stop talking about it. And she must have been obvious to her and to me that this was my issue, because I just couldn't stop talking about it. You know what? There's a place, there's a group, you can accept that you're gay without acting on it. And there's a place for someone in between being gay and being hetero. And so that was just like the first time I even. I needed a. I needed a stepping stone, I guess. I couldn't go straight to the gay world. It was so taboo and so unthinkable that I couldn't do it.

John Dehlin [01:38:39] And so those who don't know, Evergreen was kind of this non profit that, I don't know, was around in the 80s and 90s and into the 2000s that, you know, was a community for gay Mormons, LGBTQ individuals who wanted to find some way to get support and to build community. But also it was a purveyor of conversion therapy or reparative therapy through folks like Dean Bird or even Dave Matheson or others.

Gary Horlocher [01:39:11] Yeah, I used to get really bad reactions when I'd say I went to Evergreen and Because the gay world, you know, it's reparative therapy. It's, you know, I was analyzing why I'm not masculine enough. And it's strange because, you know, here I am, have the same parents, the same environment as all my brothers. I did all the sports that they did. The only thing I'm missing was kind of being kind of farting and telling bad jokes, dirty jokes, and, you know, all the kinds of things that you wouldn't want in a man that, you know, that's kind of the only thing that I wasn't really doing enough of, wasn't competitive enough. So, you know, I'm thinking, why am I not gay? You have to kind of build your manhood. And, you know, building your manhood means learning to cuss and learning to. You know, I was just having a hard time and then. But I, you know, all I needed was a stepping stone. So it provided a place for two or three months. I read all the books they had. Eventually I realized that it didn't make sense and that even though I was in this place where I now had friends, that I should maybe see what this affirmation group was about. So the affirmation was the ones where they don't hold the church. It's not church sponsored, it's. But it is Mormon culture, and that's the commonality. And so anyway, that was. And then, okay, I have this little tingly thing. You know, it's like, okay, I thought, you know, here I am 30 years old and I've never experienced anything. I've never had coffee, I've never had tea. I never swear. I never sex, never anything. And you're supposed to come to earth to learn by your experience, to know good from evil. And I thought, how do you learn from experience, if you have no experience. And I thought, isn't a shame that I kill myself. And I never really had any of those experiences. And at least if I had an experience, I could then say why it's bad. And then I could at least learn from it and then choose the right way, whether that's celibacy or continuing to try to get married. So I said to God, you know, they had a retreat for the weekend and I said, I went a few hours early, praying and fasting. Like me, it's like, okay, if I try and just go to this and open up a little, would you make it easy for me? Would you give me somebody that can be gentle and kind of help me? And I got the tinglys. And so I was all in for that anyway, so I don't want to go into a lot of detail, but I had somebody I met there from Ecuador who was very gentle and. And wonderful and. And then later I met somebody from Spain who was more sophisticated and exciting and. And I. And when I was dating the guy from Spain, I just fell in love with him. So I got all the in love chemistry that kids have in their teen years.

John Dehlin [01:42:26] Was that the first time?

Gary Horlocher [01:42:27] That was the first time that was. I was on the hook. I swallowed it all the way down.

John Dehlin [01:42:32] And you're 30 or 31 by this point?

Gary Horlocher [01:42:34] Yeah, yeah, I was somewhere between 30, 31, 32. Anyway, so. Oh boy, I think I scared him away. I was so in love. But I. Feeling that thrill and driving down the road, I would get the tinglies. God feels this.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:53] This is.

Gary Horlocher [01:42:54] God approves. It's a beautiful. It's a beautiful thing. God is not judging me for this. It's. He. He's celebrating that I'm feeling this. And you know, and then I think of another thought. I think I could be happy with this guy the rest of my life. And here comes the tinglies confirming the truth. And I'm like, wow, I have a testimony. You know, I was bad.

John Dehlin [01:43:18] Epistemology is actually helpful.

Gary Horlocher [01:43:20] There you go. I don't know anyway, that there's been some reconstruction since then. I guess you can tell by the way I talk about it.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:43:28] But

Gary Horlocher [01:43:30] anyway, it totally made it feel like. And it wasn't to me, it wasn't that this guy was right. It was that God was okay with me and I can make my own choice. And so it was still a choice to me, you know, now I realize I have a choice. Should I choose to accept a gay relationship and go forward or should I stay in the church and whatever that's going to be, you know, I still believed in it all. And so when that relationship ended and I decided to. Well, I had been in so in love for three that it took me three years just to get over it. And maybe this is what's dysfunctional about someone in their 30s having their first love relationship, but, you know, you kind of have patience for kids when they're 16 and they fall in love and it takes them till 19 to want to try again. Anyway, I decided to take advantage of those three years and go back to BYU, get a PhD in marriage, family, Human development was my field and make my decision. I was going to stay celibate for those three years and stick to the rules. And then at the end of that time, I was living in Salt Lake City in my house. I had my gay friends. We had our home evening group once, once a week, we was it once a week or once a month. I can't even remember now.

John Dehlin [01:45:02] Gay home evening.

Gary Horlocher [01:45:05] We called it reconciliation. And we'd have like a home evening with the lesson and. And saw hymns and things and. And everybody was there, was positive about the church, but they were in different places. Some were living together and out of the church and some were attending church. And anyway, it was quite a spectrum of people, but it was quite popular. We had about 35, 40 people come over to my house and sit around

John Dehlin [01:45:33] three or five gay Mormon men attending a gay family evening in Salt Lake City.

Gary Horlocher [01:45:38] Yeah. And I was at BYU at this time, but I figured, you know, I'm not breaking the honor code. You know, I'm keeping my celibacy. And so I was able to decide

John Dehlin [01:45:51] if that's terrible or awesome.

Gary Horlocher [01:45:54] I think the kids down in Provo and Orem don't have that freedom because they've got, you know, all of the people they're renting from have a say about whether they get their temple record, they get watched, and all the other students are watching them. And so I felt like I had. And being a graduate PhD student, it's mostly an undergraduate college, so they don't monitor you in the same way they do the younger kids. But it gave me a chance to make lots of friends, join a lot of groups, have a great social life, and at the same time, research about marriage and family and what is gay relationships like. And then I figured by the time I was done, I would have a decision. But I think the only other thing I wanted to add about that story where I kind of hit my low, is that as I've thought back retrospectively. It's almost like I feel like if you're that far on the hook of Mormonism, that you almost have to die before you can be born again. Before you can start asking questions that aren't really questions when you're a Mormon, you have it decided, you know the answer. And it's like I could begin to ask questions. I could begin to be open about information in a way that I wasn't up till then. And so I think I did have to go through that. I glad I didn't go any further down that path than I did. I'm sorry. If people are there, I hope that they can find a way to use it as a. That they realize that. I don't know, somehow it's like the phoenix, you know, coming out of the ashes. If it doesn't consume you completely, there's a chance that you can be a beautiful thing. I think that Harry Potter, you know, that beautiful bird, it's all colorful and life has been that way since. It's just gotten better. But anyway.

Mental Health Struggles and the Will to Survive

John Dehlin [01:48:00] Are you saying that sometimes when you feel like you don't want to live anymore, that almost death can lead to a rebirth if you don't actually die and you kind of work your way through it and start listening to yourself and start following your heart and your soul and your kind of self wisdom instead of living someone else's external life for you, that if you follow that reaching the point of almost wanting to die can almost be a death of self and then a rebirth into something very beautiful.

Gary Horlocher [01:48:32] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a strange metaphor, but I feel like I couldn't have done that without having died in my mind. Or somehow I couldn't just switch my worldview as so entrenched that I needed kind of a death experience before I was willing to try and explore. You know, I remember thinking that thought about how I've never tried anything before. And I thought, well, I'm gonna set it up. So before I kill myself, I'm gonna go up and I'm gonna smoke a pack of cigarettes and I'm gonna have some alcohol and I'm gonna have some coffee and I'm gonna. Maybe I'll find have sex and somehow I'll just have all those experiences and then I'll finish it off. But then it's like, no, why would I even start on all those things after a lifetime of not doing it? It didn't make sense. And it's like a no win situation. I couldn't move forward, and I couldn't stay where I was any longer.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:49:30] The term that I use of what you're referencing, that I use a lot is the death of belief. And so then you have to start over as to, well, what do you believe now? Where do you go from here?

Gary Horlocher [01:49:42] Well, and it's a little more subtle in one way in that the beliefs are all still there. I still had, you know, I still wanted to go to BYU and figure this out. So I hadn't lost my beliefs, I just had suspended them and I was willing to begin to kind of test them again instead of. It's had this lifetime of trusting that tingly as my, like you say, epistemology, the way I prove what is true. And now I'm going to start over and start reconsidering some of these things. So I didn't know what I didn't believe in. I didn't become a non believer. I just became somebody that was open to information and to learning. And I was starting my PhD in marriage and family, so that was a perfect kind of place for me to. And then I thought, well, here's a safe place too, because I'm not gonna. They won't teach me things with an agenda to get me out of the church or to get me in the gay world, so it'll be a place where I could be safe and learning.

John Dehlin [01:50:48] Yeah. So beautiful and such a powerful metaphor. And I'm just so. I mean, on the one hand,

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:50:58] I.

John Dehlin [01:50:59] I'm so sad that both of you were pushed into lifestyles that were completely incongruous or incompatible with your core natures. And that, you know, in your case, Ernie, you're involving another woman who's a victim too, and then all the disruption with the kids. But you're just. You're making all these huge life decisions, like you said, based on these beliefs that in some ways were probably good for you, but then in some ways were catastrophic. And I'm. It's just, I'm so sad that it led you there. And Gary, I'm so sad that, you know, I. We studied the LGBTQ Mormon experience. Some Mormon men would go to 35 and 40 and 45, holding on to celibacy, and they would become, I hate to say this, shells of a man trying to live this gospel that was literally deadly. It was toxic. I mean, you talk about rat poison, it's like titrating a tiny bit of rat poison every day for 20 or 30 or 40 years. That's. It seems like that's what it does to Your soul. And I'll just say this. When I left Microsoft in 2004 and I attended my very first Sunstone in 2004, my friend Ron Scow had produced this little video about kind of the LGBT Mormon experience. And he produced this video, and I think it's the first video I ever put up on Mormon Stories YouTube page. If you scroll back to the very beginning of Mormon Stories, he was releasing it as a DVD, and I'm like, nobody's going to see this. And YouTube just kind of came out, and I'm like, why don't we put this on YouTube? So I ripped it. I ripped the DVD to a MP4, and I uploaded it to YouTube. But I remember. I think you were both there at the Sunstone presentation. But I remember watching this video, and, you know, I was struck you, Ernie. I was struck by the story of you and your huge family and all your gay siblings. And I'm like, whoa, I thought you were Polynesian for some reason. And, like, I'm like, whoa, this family is kind of crazy. What a weird experience. But then with you, Gary, I'm just like. I was watching that video, and I'm just like, what a tragic, sad, you know, watching. Talking about building your house and waiting and waiting and just waiting to live a happy life and becoming what I perceived as, like, a shell of a man. And I don't mean to, like, put that on you, but when I was watching that in 2004 or 5, I was just like, this is horrible what we're doing to people.

Gary Horlocher [01:53:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:40] And it was a. It was just, you know, I didn't end up starting my PhD until five years later and doing my research until six years later. But it. It left a. You two left a really big impression on me, in addition to some other experiences I had had before.

Gary Horlocher [01:53:56] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:53:57] It's like. And Evergreen is still alive. And I'm just like, we gotta do something about this. Because either way, the church gave three options for LGBT people. And I've said this a lot. It's for men. It's marry a woman that you're not attracted to, disaster, become celibate, and become a shell of a man. Disaster or die. Those are the three options you had as a gay Mormon and to some extent, to this day. And I'm just. I am thankful that you're willing to share your stories. And I'm so sad that not just the Mormon Church, but Orthodox Judaism and Evangelical Christianity and Catholicism and Islam and a million other religions have taught these toxic beliefs that have led millions of people into these tragic kind of situations.

Gary Horlocher [01:54:49] Well, and I'm sorry if my video has told people that there's a way to do this because in a way that's kind of the way we set it up so that it would look like you can be single in the church. But I think at that time I was at BYU and I was studying marriage and family. But like I said, I had a more open mind. So it was only telling kind of half the story. There was a half of the story that was more open. But I remember doing a paper on. I did a research paper project at BYU on gay Mormon studies. This was before your study. And we had about 165 people fill out the survey and we later did a follow up seven years later. So I don't know, I think it's the only longitudinal study that's been done on this topic. But I thought if I'm studying marriages and maybe I should study the gay relationships too, and these men. So anyway, it was. I guess I forgot what I was going to say about that. Anyway, it was, yeah, it was an eye opener.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:55:58] I knew Gary at that time. And similar to your findings, John, it was a parallel as to, okay, if you're going to remain and you're going to abide as opposed to, you know, leave very similar parallel of findings of. Well, these are the depressed.

Gary Horlocher [01:56:15] Yeah, I was going to say that. I remember writing one paper where I talked about six types of people in the sample and one of them was somebody that had decided to stay single and celibate in the church their whole life. And it was such a miserable scenario. And all of the groups got better the more accepting they were as you moved down the continuum. And I remember my brother who had a gay son at the time. I don't mean his son is not gay now. He's also got two lesbian daughters now. Anyway, he's still very much an apologist for the church. And when I talk to him, he always wants to point out that sixth group that, you know, here's somebody that's doing it. And it was totally the opposite of what I intended. I kind of wanted 10, 10. It's like someone saying, well, I'm 99% sure and the 1% is lying or whatever. You know, it's like, I guess that I said that wrong. Anyway, it was supposed to be like, here's the worst possible scenario that we wouldn't want for anybody. And yet he's. Because there is one possibility that exists out of this whole possibility. It doesn't matter how bad it is, if that's the one that fits with the gospel, that's the one that we should choose. And so he was very happy that there was one. One situ. One that he could own.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:57:50] This brother just got called to be a stake president.

John Dehlin [01:57:53] Anyway, well, I'll include a link in the show notes to this original video I just found on YouTube and we'll. We'll include it.

Gary Horlocher [01:58:01] You can see what we looked like 20 years ago.

John Dehlin [01:58:03] Yeah, well, at that time, you hadn't met yet, is that right?

Gary Horlocher [01:58:08] We were friends.

John Dehlin [01:58:09] You weren't an item yet?

Gary Horlocher [01:58:11] No, we were friends for four years before we were an item.

John Dehlin [01:58:15] Yeah.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [01:58:16] Since Gary lived in Salt Lake and I was in a relationship then with Mark, gay Mormon father, we would visit our kids, but not only. Not necessarily at the same time. So we would stay at Gary's place.

Gary Horlocher [01:58:28] Yeah, Mark and Mark and Ernie would take turns coming up to see their kids, and Ernie's dad and I would come down and visit them. And I remember Ernie came to Yellowstone for a conference where I was presenting, and we just toured through Yellowstone and drove back together. So we had a really beautiful friendship. And Ernie would listen to me for hours on the phone or write long letters of all my theories and ideas, and we'd just be real buddies. It was fun.

John Dehlin [01:59:01] So that was one of the ironies of these groups like Evergreen and even North Star and Affirmation, but particularly Evergreen. We would see participants in. In Evergreen say it was actually helpful to them. And I'm like, well, you've already referenced this. It's like, wait, how can a conversion therapy group that's primarily religious be helpful? But it was just a way to find friends, to not feel alone and not feel broken, to not feel so huge to me. So even if the church was trying to change you and it was still religious, at least you weren't alone wanting to die. Right?

Gary Horlocher [01:59:36] Yeah. Well, that was. I mean, that's got to be a huge part of that suicidal ideation is, is that you're alone, you're. And to have that satisfied with friends. And, you know, some of the. Some gay men as well as straight people don't believe that I can, but I would love to just sleep with somebody that would let me cuddle with them. Another man. I know some of the reparative therapies decided to go in that direction and encourage that because even without sex, being able to hold somebody, it's just huge. It just unleashes all this emotion and hormones that we have. And it's part of Being human, to be able to hold somebody and cuddle, that, to me, that was way more important than having sex at that stage of my life.

John Dehlin [02:00:27] Yeah. So, Ernie, you talked about getting divorced and then dating and eventually finding Mark. How long was it before you kind of really questioned your Mormon faith and deconstructed it? From the time you. Of your divorce until kind of your deconstruction, how many years did you go still as a believer on some level?

Faith Crisis and Deconstructing Mormonism

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:00:52] That's a good question, because I think it's a gradual process. Some people, especially in our modern day and age, you know, start having questions, listen to your Mormon stories, dive in, and within three months, they're done. But we didn't have any access to such resources. So I remained a believer right into my relationship with Mark, but not necessarily like Mark did. Mark is a staunch believer, still believes now and enjoys going to Mormon churches because he wants to help mentor gay kids that might, you know, fall in that area. But. And that was too much eventually for me because in the process have now been in a relationship and enjoying my life. And just gradually I just started to lose my belief. And when I met this guy, we sort of challenged each other. I mean, okay, on questions like, you know, well, okay, now that we will, in Gary's word, get rid of the tingly as a means of verifying truth, let's turn to the scientific method. Let's ask questions. And we kind of hopscotched because. And for us, we've become secular. But the issue, you know, one issue was, well, what about is there a God? And what. Who. What is God, etc. And, you know, Gary said, hey, that's a good one. But then one day I said, well, yeah, you know, about the. The importance of the atonement. And he challenged me. And all of a sudden I thought, hey, wait a minute. And I really started digging down and I realized I don't believe this anymore.

John Dehlin [02:02:40] What was wrong with the atonement?

Gary Horlocher [02:02:42] You know, they talk about atonement and the Mormon, like it's a holy word, like there's some magic without Christ, right?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:02:48] And without an atonement, we're all lost. So that there's God that has to intervene and make it possible. And this is, of course, the whole Mormon story, the whole Christian, you know, the whole God story almost anywhere is. It's really important to align yourself with that. Well, I lost all of that, and I started reading books.

Gary Horlocher [02:03:06] And that's an afterlife. You know, is there an afterlife? You know, these questions. I think a lot of people don't want to ask them because they like kind of believing and they like staying in this kind of agnostic kind of believer position. But, you know, here I'm a PhD student and I'm a first thinker, so I'm always asking the next question or Ernie is.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:03:29] So I started reading Dawkins, you know, and Hitchens.

Gary Horlocher [02:03:35] Well, and I don't want to turn off your. I know a lot of Mormon stories are still believers of various sorts, but this is just our journey.

John Dehlin [02:03:42] Yeah, that's your story. Yeah. We're not evangelizing. We just want to hear your story.

Gary Horlocher [02:03:46] I'm not trying to say they're wrong or anything. This is just what would have come to.

John Dehlin [02:03:50] So, Ernie, you would have, you would have gone how many years between your divorce and kind of meeting Gary, where you started to deconstruct? How many years would that have been?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:03:59] Easily eight years maybe. But I was never active. And Mark was active. He would attend every Sunday. He sang in the choir. And the bishop finally said, interviewed him, you know, wanted to interview him and, and asked Mark, tell him, tell him

Gary Horlocher [02:04:18] about the shirt that, well, that's where I'm going.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:04:21] Ask Mark, you know, hey, you know, you know, where do you stand? And Mark said, I love to church, I love to sing. And the bishop said, well, hey, you know, that's good enough for me. The bishop got a call two years later from Lawrence C. Down and says, I understand you have a Mr. So and so in your congregation and that he lives with a man. And the bishop responded, well, I have met with Mark and we haven't addressed this issue, but, you know, I'm fine with him participating because he really contributes into choir and all this stuff. But then he went to Mark and said, you know, this may not end up well. And then he called Mark two weeks later, said Lawrence, he done. How does this region assignment changed so we don't have to worry about him anymore. Two years later, Mark wore a shirt where Steve Benson, grandson of President Benson, you know, very artistic, drew the shirt for the affirmation conference, advertising it. On that shirt was Brigham Young standing like this with 27 women behind him and there's two guys, cowboys in front of him holding hands. And Brigham says that's not normal, they're

Gary Horlocher [02:05:39] not natural or something.

John Dehlin [02:05:40] He went into, I want to see a photo of this. I wonder if it's on the Internet somewhere.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:05:44] He went into the bank and some lady saw that from his ward, reported it to the stake president, highlighting the

John Dehlin [02:05:52] polygamy was a non traditional family. That's okay. But gay couples, somehow unacceptable.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:06:00] So he called Mark and said, you know what? I. And the bishop said, mark, I'm sorry, but they're going to have to hold a court. Some of my procedural legal background. I said, well, I'll go there, Mark, and just be with you. We go meet the stake president. And he says, who are you? Well, I sleep with him. I didn't say that. But, you know, it's like he said,

Gary Horlocher [02:06:23] wait a minute, he's talking about Mark.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:06:25] You're with Mark. Well, he said. And he was a really kind man, though. He was. And he. And he said, you know, I'm sorry, but I'm gonna have to call you in, too. He says, but I see that you're a couple. I will call you in as a couple. And so we had a court.

Gary Horlocher [02:06:41] Court of love.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:06:43] The court of love. But because of where I was at at that time, okay, I decided I knew what they had to do. Their guardians, they've got their appointed assignment. So rather than becoming in combative, I utilizing their language, which if I'm very, you know, the spirit and all of these things, I got their attention and shared with them the struggle of gay Mormons. And it did have quite an impact because at the end, the first counselor was kind of a. Just looked like Packer and behaved like him. He got the heck out of there. And almost all the rest remained. Half of them were weeping. And the stake president said, this is really frustrating. You're the very kind of men that belong in stake presidencies and on high councils, but I have to do what I have to do. So that's where I lost my membership. And it wasn't a big deal to me. And Mark still kept going, even as an excommunicated member.

John Dehlin [02:07:46] Wow. What, around what year was that?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:07:50] Well, let's see, that was about 96, 97, maybe.

John Dehlin [02:07:55] Okay. Wow. And so you both were still believers at the time, and you were excommunicated from the Mormon Church as believers. And then Mark keeps attending after being excommunicated.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:08:11] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:11] And of course, now here's what you believe right there.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:08:15] They always say this in the excommunication process, apparently, like, well, you know, if you want to come back and you can still pay your tithing. And I thought, oh, really? But because I still believed in the principle, you know, for about a couple years, I would save my tithing, and then I would just randomly be kind to people. And I remember one time, and, I don't know, it was very moving to me because of what happened I saw this lady going through a dumpster, and next to her was apparently her daughter, only three, just hopping, very happy. And something just melted to me. So I just reached in my sock, I was rollerblading and handed her on. Might have easily been, I don't know, $500 or so, but I was like, this is how I'm going to use my tithing. So I, I kept those principles of, you know, that I, I don't believe now, but, I mean, I. You're right. It's a process for me. It was a process of slowly. And after, you know, meeting Gary, a lot started to change in terms of what I.

Gary Horlocher [02:09:19] We're so intellectual in our conversations and topics and thoughts that we work through a lot of this and can then kind of resolve and go forward.

Maintaining Belief as a Gay Mormon Man

John Dehlin [02:09:29] Let me, before we get to that, and I want to. And Gary, maybe you can answer this first. And Ernie, you can add. How could any, like, I'm imagining people who are now LGBTQ affirming thinking, well, once you acknowledge you're gay and once you decide you're gonna. You're gonna date and have relationships with men, well, your beliefs got to disappear because you can't, number one, you're taught it's a sin. And so it's so, like too much cognitive dissonance. And so as soon as you kind of say, I'm gonna accept who I am, like you said, you're gonna choose life and love, you know, Gary, over rat poison and death. Once you kind of make that choice, some people would go, well, of course you're, you're gonna. The way that you would manage your cognitive distance would be to just kill your belief. You just say, okay, this church is stupid. These beliefs are stupid. I tried their way. I was miserable. Only sadness came from it for me and the people around me. And now I'm. Now I'm getting the tinglies. Living the good life. So clearly I was taught bad things. It's not true. And therefore, bye bye all my Mormon beliefs. Can you explain to us first, first Gary and then Ernie why that's not an immediate processing conclusion?

Gary Horlocher [02:10:49] Yeah, I guess, you know, we construct a world that's part of being human and, and that world is how we judge things. And, and just because one thing in that world has changed doesn't mean that everything else has changed too. We have to test everything else and see, eventually we recon. I reconstruct. I've kind of reconstructed a new world where I see the world in a different way. And we can talk about that later. I Think it's really fascinating how we'll get there.

John Dehlin [02:11:19] But I want to know, some of you maintain belief. How do you maintain Mormon belief as authentically gay man?

Gary Horlocher [02:11:25] For me, it was kind of like, like I said to Ernie just a few minutes ago that they suspend. I just suspended what I knew. I didn't know if I knew it or not anymore. I just, you know, we're so confident that we know everything. And I still believe things. I still believed in the tinglies because the tinglies were telling me my relationship with these gay men was true and honest. And so I hadn't lost yet my belief in the tinglies. And the tinglies taught me about all of the testimony of all the prophets and taught me the testimony of all the scriptures. And all these things I had separate testimonies of at points where I felt that feeling when I was contemplating it. So I guess there's a dissonance now because now that I got the confirmation of my relationship, which doesn't match with the way the church teaches and the church leaders teach. I think, and this is interesting too, because I think in Mormonism, we're taught as priesthood holders that we have to make choices. We have to be the ones to interpret the rules. Where I think the women and a lot of even other men, a lot of them are taught to accept what their leaders tell them. And the leaders are the ones that define. And if the leader knows better than me, then I have to default with the leader. I see this in some of my siblings. My sister says she doesn't trust herself, and that's why she can't be around me with her kids, because she doesn't even trust herself, let alone trust me. But as a young man growing up in Mormonism, we're taught to trust our feelings and we're taught to give inspiration. I'm supposed to give a blessing, and somebody's waiting for some prophetic thing to come out of that blessing. I have to be the voice of God to tell them whatever. And so they kind of teach you how to kind of be self determining. And so, no, I mean, I kind of had a little ambiguity there, as I knew the church didn't accept this, but I knew the church was true and I knew this was true. And so I had to go through a process of deconstruction where I kind of left all my beliefs in place, but then slowly took them down one at a time and said, okay, do I still believe in this one? The word of wisdom, you know, it's supposed to be give you A good life. Does it hold up? You know, do I believe in those things, or is it a different set of things? That would be my word of wisdom. And so I think it's been. It's taken all these years to kind of little by little reconstruct a world that I believe in that fits my experience and my knowledge. And I continue to read authorities. You know, I read the science. I read what people say in politics. I like to hear both sides. I like to understand. But I'm gonna continue to create my world. But it's just more in sync now, I think, with these areas that were out of sync before.

John Dehlin [02:14:47] You understand my question about why it's not immediate.

Gary Horlocher [02:14:49] Yeah, yeah. It just. Yeah. I mean, I still have to operate as a human, and we have to have a world, and it's just like the world is still the same world. I kind of am shocked when my brother, my stake president brother, comes up to me and starts explaining something as if I'm a kin, you know, in primary and haven't heard it before. You know, as Mormons, we believe. He doesn't say Mormons. That is. I just did a. No, no, I'm sorry. Church of Jesus Christ. As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, I just say his church now. At your church. In our church, we believe that the prophets get revelation. I'm like, why is he talking to me like that? I grew up in it. I know it. I haven't forgotten everything. It's like they think somehow that you made this choice and now you're a different person and you no longer understand their language. It's like we still speak the language. We just have shifted. Anyway, I'm sorry, I didn't get your question. Maybe, Ernie.

John Dehlin [02:15:49] Well, I mean, one way I've heard it described is it doesn't wash off. Mormonism doesn't wash off.

Gary Horlocher [02:15:56] It's a culture, and a culture is part of our identity. And, you know, and this is where our culture gets smaller as we move from Mormon to ex Mormon or post Mormon, whatever you want to call it. There's fewer people that can relate to my world than used to. I've got co workers. One is from Florida. He's Cajun, not Cajun. He's Creole from a Creole community. And I've got a boss who's Jewish, and, you know, I don't relate to their worlds. I wouldn't fit in in her synagogue. And where do I go now to find a place where people relate to me, where I have the same lingo and see the Same world. Well, it's the ex Mormons or the post Mormons, people that have been through similar things. But, you know, we still have that Mormon part of us. It's still there. That's. That's where I started from. That's how I, how I experienced the world my first 30 years.

John Dehlin [02:16:54] The wirings, the wiring's thick. The grooves, the grooves in the brain run deep and they don't wash off. Just when you start living authentically. Ernie, what would be, what would be your answer to that same question of

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:17:06] why you're not going to get. This is my answer. I don't think they're going to get a common answer. And I'll take you.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:11] Why?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:17:12] I think my opinion, you're talking about identity, and it's a process. And so if we look at anybody's identity, Right. We like to think of ourselves as a self. The fact is, research has shown that your identity and the nature of yourself is usually composed of others and the culture you're in. And so if you've been in this steeped for 20, 30 years, I don't think you can get out of it overnight. Some do. A lot of them do. I say there's a lot more resources available so that we can go at warp speed. I think that actually makes a difference too. If I had access to what's now available on Mormon stories, I'm telling you, I would have gone at lightning speed, but there was nothing there. And so you're on your own. And that, I think, accounts to why. Well, why wouldn't they just logically drop it if it isn't working, work and go on? Well, it's like, how do you shed an identity overnight if it's so embedded

John Dehlin [02:18:12] with your friends and with your family and with your work and with your entire culture, your sense of spirituality, everything.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:18:19] Well, look at my ex, Mark. He's still a believer.

John Dehlin [02:18:22] Yeah. Astoundingly, decades later. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:27] I think too, one thing that's interesting when it comes to deconstruction is this idea of, for many people, beliefs, you know, we can. There's an expectation when you kind of, you know, deconstruct belief. That can happen at all sorts of paces. Right. But like the emotional component that goes on for years and years and years, it's completely a normal process to realize. I actually don't believe that thing anymore. But you have an emotional still. You're still emotionally processing it as if you did. And that can be really confusing. An example is to feel guilt over drinking wine when you know you know, and that's the conditioning part. And that I find is that takes practicing over years and years and years to kind of. And so just wanted to make that observation that it's really difficult. I think there's this expectation a lot of times where people are like, well, I believe differently now. So it's all going to sync up. And now I'm going to just feel free. And from here forward it's going to be. But that emotional side, that emotional memory is stored in a different place in the brain. We experience it in a very different way. So it's really. It's pesty. It comes up even when we are way beyond believing.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:19:54] Yep. Thank you. I agree.

John Dehlin [02:19:56] I've never been gay, but. But Margi and I stayed in the church like another 13 years after we completely lost our faith. And I. I wore my garments.

Gary Horlocher [02:20:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:06] For a long, long time after. I didn't, you know, didn't believe that they had any special powers or really meant anything just because I had gotten really comfortable wearing them. And it was hard. It was hard to stop wearing them, you know, like. Anyway, I have never been gay, so I'm not trying to compare my experience to yours, but in many ways I just. I guess I think we can probably all relate on some level. But I'm glad we're talking about it. Thanks for. Thanks for talking about that. That was beautiful. Ernie and Gary and Margi. Okay, let's talk about your love story. So, yeah, so. So we know you had a relationship before Ernie with Mark and others. Gary, you were able to date some, too. Let's talk about the first time you started thinking. And we know you had a friendship for a few years before, you know, sparks started to fly. But let's talk about the emergence of your love story. Where does your falling in love begin?

How Gary and Ernie Found Each Other

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:21:05] Maybe I should preface this by saying that when I first met Gary, I was instantly impressed. I was still with Mark. And I even had the thought to myself if maybe through death or otherwise, I lost Mark. I couldn't conceive of Gary being primary relationship in my life. He's too cute, he's too smart, and he's too young. So inevitably, by really accepting that we had the deepest still do, but richest friendship, where we could share anything, we could travel together, we didn't need worry. We were about, you know, overstanding boundaries that we'd set for ourselves. So it was beautiful in that way. Let me just say very quickly in summation, I ended it with Mark because he still believed and I lost my belief Five years after we separated, he finally said to me, you know, you were right. It's incompatible. But for a long time, he just felt like, whoa, why did you stop this? We can make it work. But it wouldn't work. So that's the first part. Right?

John Dehlin [02:22:16] That's helpful.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:22:17] So then we have a gamma fight. Gay Mormon Fathers national conference, first time ever. Right. In Washington. Mark and I are there and in the same unit, you know, Gary and

Gary Horlocher [02:22:30] his friend from Ecuador, state dormitory, where they have, you know, 16 bedrooms on each floor and they got a kitchen. And so Ernie and Mark are sitting in the kitchen, kind of the center of the social world. Keep going.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:22:46] Yeah. And then I see Gary, who's in.

Gary Horlocher [02:22:48] I come down the stairs. We've dropped our bags, me. And he's walking to his rehearsal.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:22:53] I chase him down, and I say, hey, Gary. And I did, though. I have this kind of strange habit. But I said to him, we're going to be friends.

Gary Horlocher [02:23:03] And I laughed at it. I said, oh, right, yeah, you guys live in California and I live in Utah. And. And we're out here in Washington at this retreat. And, you know, it would be really nice. I'd love that, because you guys are so awesome. But probably not.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:23:21] And we did develop a friendship, but as soon as I had ended it with Mark and moved from California to Salt Lake, you know, and we were in an apartment and Mark moved out around.

John Dehlin [02:23:33] What year is this?

Gary Horlocher [02:23:35] So I used to go by graduating from BYU and 2005, and then my grant at USC started 2006. So January 2000.

John Dehlin [02:23:47] So this is around a year after I learned about YouTube. That's right after, you know, I come. I moved to Utah. 2004, start Mormon stories in 2005 and saw your video and you had not yet started dating, but. Right.

Gary Horlocher [02:24:00] We were friends. Yeah. Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [02:24:02] Dating around 2005.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:24:03] So here we come back to Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [02:24:05] Your love story and Mormon stories share the same anniversary year.

Gary Horlocher [02:24:09] We just been going. We've been on this journey in your research study after mine. And.

John Dehlin [02:24:14] Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, so we're 2005, when I've always

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:24:18] been, I recognize, not necessarily a compliment to me, a relationship person. I have not been single very long in my entire life. And so I break up with Mark, thinking I'm single now. And. And my daughter likes to say, dad, Gary's not stupid. He's not going to wait for a line to form. He's going to just say, hey.

Gary Horlocher [02:24:41] Well. And like I said, I kind of. I guess sexual orientation sometimes includes more than just gender. And Ernie matched so many things. You know, one is, I got, there's not a lot of non Caucasians living in Utah, but you find a few Hispanic and black and different things. So Ernie's in that category that I would first eliminate and kind of see who's in this category. And then, and then here we've been kind of best buddies for four years. So we're compatible, we can travel together. It was kind of a no brainer to me that here's, you know, even though there's an age difference, I wouldn't have necessarily sought him out at the beginning. But after four years of being friends, I just knew that he was closer to all the things I liked than anyone else I'd seen. And so it was a no brainer that once he's available, I was right there.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:25:41] And in less than a month, Gary moved in.

Gary Horlocher [02:25:47] I'm not going to correct you. It was probably a lot less than a month.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:50] Yeah, maybe even. Okay, I have a question for you. Kind of thinking back to your getting to know one another, are there certain attractions that you remember feeling for each other? So, you know, oftentimes we talk a lot about sexual attraction, but what about for you two in particular? This idea of emotional attraction or intellectual. I'm hearing in your description some of that, but I'm curious if you both feel that you felt that or aesthetic attraction, Anything within the ways of what, like what you remember experiencing as you were getting to know.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:26:35] I'm glad you asked that because I absolutely. I've always been just, how do I put this? A sucker for intelligence. I love intelligence. And this guy is really bright. And when he exposed me to stuff he's reading and writing, I think he was impressed with my response. I would say, what about this, what about that? And to this day, when we like have to go on a trip or we're in the car for four or five hours, we get excited. Why? Because we have all that time to talk and share ideas, listen to a

Gary Horlocher [02:27:09] podcast or read a book and talk about it.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:27:13] Right. And no detriment to Mark. We're all different. But he might have, you know, read three or four books in the 13 years we're together. And I usually read three books a month or more usually. And here I find Gary challenging me. So that has been a huge, and continues to be a huge connector is our shared interest. And so what happened is right after we started getting together and we came back from California, Gary doing research, and this relates to your issue of belief. We dropped Mormonism we started looking at other things.

John Dehlin [02:27:46] Okay, wait, you just dropped it like. So you had a period of mutual deconstruction first, is that right?

Gary Horlocher [02:27:53] Well, while I was at byu, I was, you know, that was part of my journey. But when we moved in together, we started my grant at usc. We were in Long beach and I would attend a gay church there, gay friendly kind of rock band group. They were born again kind gay and lesbian people there. It was interesting and Ernie wasn't so interested in that. But when we came back to Utah three years later, we went to a spiritual living center and we went to the church that you helped support, Oasis. And we've gone to, there was another one, Unitarian church, I think, for a while. So we were trying different things and see what works. You know, what do we resonate with.

John Dehlin [02:28:40] Do you, each of you want to just say if you deca when you deconstructed Mormonism? And I want to get right back to where you were going, Ernie. But I don't want to skip over this. Each of you just spend a minute or two. When you deconstructed Mormonism, finally, intellectually, what were the main things that sort of made you conclude that it wasn't what you thought from an intellectual standpoint? Do you want to go first, Ernie? Were there?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:29:05] Well, first of all, I reached a point where I didn't believe anything as far as Mormonism goes. But then that made me question, well, what about God? What about Christ? What about. And as we started addressing those and I started reading books, I just lost it all.

John Dehlin [02:29:21] Well, were there things about Mormonism that you concluded weren't true, that you thought were true? Did you almost.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:29:28] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:29:30] Maybe just list the top five just

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:29:31] so that people can start with the founder, Joseph Smith, you know, sending men on missions while he is having relationship with their wives, multiple first visions. How do you account for that? I mean, anybody in this world, I would, I would think it's say if they saw God, they would have a pretty accurate memory of the details. So, hey, what's wrong? What's going on here? You know, so that's first of all. And then all of the truth claims, the only true church on the face of the earth. And then even logically, if this is so, they're doing a terrible job of converting the earth. They're not even keeping up the population of the earth in terms of the percentage that they are. I mean, these beliefs that the stone is going to fill the whole earth,

John Dehlin [02:30:18] the prophecy of Daniel, it's not holding up.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:30:21] It's not holding up at all. I mean, the more I look into it now, I'm so far away that I'm gone from. At first I didn't like being around Mormons because it's like having smoked and you quit and then you go around smokers, and it was really irritating. But now I've really reached a point of everybody gets to choose their own way, and it's humorous. Why is it humorous? Because, well, these stories are way beyond Santa Claus. You know, I mean, in terms of, oh, believing in creation of worlds and God and.

John Dehlin [02:30:55] And just the mythology, the whole mythology of Mormonism.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:30:59] But then you go beyond that and start asking about the mythology of other beliefs. And I think maybe you've noticed. I think a lot of ex Mormons lose all beliefs, but a lot of them find other beliefs, and I think that's wonderful. I don't want to advocate secularism, but what I want to advocate is freedom of choice, self determination.

John Dehlin [02:31:20] Mark? He's nodding.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:22] Love it.

John Dehlin [02:31:23] Okay, so for you, Ernie, you know, you mentioned first vision, multiple accounts of first vision, polygamy, the idea of a one true church, but not really keeping up with the growing Earth's population. Those are some of the things you mentioned.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:31:38] Oh, and now add to that in the last few years, what we've seen coming out of the church, you know, why are you still tithing people if you're sitting on a pile of money, if I may say so? And in all of the things we're learning now, just quite recently, of the great lengths they go, that the image of the church takes precedence over innocent children being abused. That really sets me off, by the way, because I think that's wrong. But then I also think, well, wait a minute, you know, they're not alone. They're like other churches. I think Mormons like to think they're separate. We don't do that. But I'd say no, you've got your own stuff.

John Dehlin [02:32:16] Other churches. Yeah. Okay, so those are some of Ernie's. Gary, any other issues you want to add? They were part of your deconstruction of Mormonism specifically. Then we can go to Jesus and God and the other things.

Gary Horlocher [02:32:28] Yeah, I think I had to kind of work through the epistemology thing first, where I had to.

John Dehlin [02:32:33] The tingly problem.

Gary Horlocher [02:32:34] The tingly problem. Because now I knew that God was not a homophobe. Like some of the leaders kind of projected that. And so either I'm wrong or the church is wrong. You know, the leaders and a lot of the gay groups believe the church is wrong. And they still waiting for that, that revelation or whatever. But to me it's. It's like, well, you know, I, I have that same tingly. I know that God was not. He helped me on this journey. And this was not a bad fruit that came out of this experimentation. It was a good fruit and God loved it. And so, you know, how do I resolve this problem of knowing something that goes against everything else? And to me, it was the tingly that was the problem because the belief

John Dehlin [02:33:29] that feelings were an indication of knowledge or truth.

Gary Horlocher [02:33:33] Right. My testimony that that is now, I can now accept that that's as true as this table is hard sitting in front of me. You know, I basically had a literal belief, a one to one reality on things that we can't know, that we can believe in, but that we can't know. And, and so once I kind of resolved that, then it put everything in question and then we've basically gone down this rabbit hole. And I love Jeremy Reynolds, how well he summarized so many of these things in just a very simple book in the CES Letter.

John Dehlin [02:34:10] Letter, yeah, letter to a CES director. I'll include a link to the.

Gary Horlocher [02:34:14] I thought he summarized it really well. I remember my brother asked me, if there's one thing that would be a problem, what do you think it would be? And I was thinking through all the things Ernie said. I thought maybe the DNA, because that's definitely hard science. You know, you can't work yourself around that.

John Dehlin [02:34:32] Tell people what you mean by DNA.

Gary Horlocher [02:34:34] The native Indians are supposed to be from a tribe of Israel, according to. According to the Book of Mormon, which is the centerpiece of the church, Joseph Smith's authority. Authority comes from the Book of Mormon. So basically it's all falling apart if that DNA evidence doesn't work. But I.

John Dehlin [02:34:52] In your line of work, DNA is

Gary Horlocher [02:34:53] real and I love DNA. Yeah. And I see, you know, I solving all kinds of problems with DNA. And people are.

John Dehlin [02:35:00] These days, people are discovering that they have siblings they didn't know about, that their parents.

Gary Horlocher [02:35:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:04] Had relationships with people. And real DNA is real. It's a real thing.

Gary Horlocher [02:35:09] My siblings follow the Meldrum, Is that his name?

John Dehlin [02:35:12] Rod Meldrum?

Gary Horlocher [02:35:13] Yeah, yeah. His kind of line of thinking and his apologetics. And so they're all. Well, you don't know. You're not an expert. Well, neither is he. He's not any more expert than I am. At least I work with DNA. But anyway, yeah, we've kind of done that. I think the most important ones for us were God and the afterlife. Because.

John Dehlin [02:35:34] So that's when Mormonism, you can. You can put Mormon.

Gary Horlocher [02:35:36] Oh, there you go.

John Dehlin [02:35:37] But you still have to.

Gary Horlocher [02:35:39] So we'd never stop. Yeah, we keep going.

John Dehlin [02:35:41] You kept going. You guys kept going.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:35:43] And part of that journey, I might add, is we have a good friend who was teaching ancient scripture at BYU. We're talking 13 years ago, and then he lost his testimony and he started a meetup group, amateur philosophy group, and Gary discovered it and we joined. It's been going 12 years now. We almost meet every Sunday and we've cover all kinds of topics. But that certainly not only helped in deconstructing, but in rebuilding. What is our values? What is our ethics? What do we believe? What do we think is important?

Life, Philosophy, and Spirituality After Mormonism

John Dehlin [02:36:19] We have a lot of listeners that still believe in God and Jesus, and they are sad that so many ex Mormons end up atheist or agnostic. And I would say it's over half. Why would you want to deconstruct God and Jesus? Why would you want to go to a philosophy class that would lead to, like many, many believers would say, man, belief in Jesus, what a beautiful. What's wrong with that? It's just beauty and goodness and kindness and charity. Why would you ever want to lose your faith in Jesus and then God? If you lose your faith in God in the afterlife, then all of a sudden you don't have the reassurance of a heaven. You don't have a loving heavenly father that's watching over you and inspiring you. Like, on behalf of my believing viewers and listeners, I'm going to just ask you, why would you even allow yourselves to go to that philosophy class if it would start challenging these beliefs that so many find beautiful and sacred?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:37:10] So you just set the grounds of why I wouldn't want to take another person's beliefs away, particularly if it provides everything you mentioned. I feel like if we were to sum up, which is hard to do, what is the whole purpose of philosophy? What is the ultimate question in philosophy? It'll probably is, what is going on? What is reality? And even then, there's a lot of questions. What I love about the scientific method is that it's willing to challenge what we believe now is accurate. And so going on our side of the equation, in going to this philosophy group, we have delved into questions that have been asked over thousands of years. And, you know, in the Book of Mormon, it says, well, you know, everything. What's it. The philosophies of men mingled with scripture, you know, Right. They put it down as long, you

John Dehlin [02:38:12] know, the philosophy yeah, well, into those that hearken unto, you know, that believe they're wise when they. When they are learned. I'm a little rusty in my Book of Mormon. When they are learning. When they are learned, they think they are wise, for they hearken not unto the counsels of the spirit or something like that.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:38:27] Yeah. It basically denigrates the philosophies of men. But the fact is, if anybody here is familiar and study philosophy, they ask fundamental questions on what does it mean to be good? What is ethical? All right, what is rationality? And how should it be utilized? And so gaining out of that, we found not only our values, but a replacement belief in existentialism. That is, we are defined by our choices and are responsible for who we are by the choices and the actions we take. And for me, stoicism, and I think stoicism gets a bad rap. Everybody thinks that, well, that's being kind of, you know, unfeeling, unfeeling, apathetic. But that is not accurate. I'll just say three things about stoicism that really serves. Served me in terms of, okay, where do you go if you let go of God? The first is, for me, death. And they really study that a lot. And you say, what do you mean by that? I think Gary and I hold our death close to us in our minds, not as a morbid type of thing, but as a realization that all of us will eventually die. And so we should make the most of the life we have. The second is the assertion that the most precious asset you have among all those that you have is time. And so you should be careful how you use it and apply it and focus with your time. Many times we hold our money and our valuables, but with our time, we just throw anywhere. And the third is more personal to me. It's a title of a chapter in a book called the Practicing Stoic. But it's what others think. And I think through culture, through church, through family, it's important to first guide people to think about what others think. But it can become a prison. And that's what happened kind of in my life. I was always helping other people, but neglecting myself because I'm worried about how, you know, whether it's family or employer or who else? And one of the things that set it off with Gary right from the get go, for me, Mark was really troubled because towards the end of our relationship, I started going through therapy. What does Ernie want? What does Ernie believe? And he took it as a threat. And when I met Gary or we Started our relationship. He said, hey, I have a favor to ask you. I don't want you to stop your journey of self discovery. And that was huge.

John Dehlin [02:41:15] Wait, Gary said that to you? Ernie?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:41:17] Oh yeah, he said that to me right at the get go at the beginning. So I'm like, hey, you know, this guy's a keeper.

Gary Horlocher [02:41:23] I might regret it now. I wanted to answer that too, if I could.

John Dehlin [02:41:28] Yeah, please.

Gary Horlocher [02:41:30] You know, when I remember, I have a memory. Orem Library, they have some rooms downstairs you can rent and for family home evening. One time we rented a room and watched a movie and it was called Yentl and Barbra Streisand. And I must have been about 12 years old. And I just loved that movie so much. I came out of there wanting to just fly off on a cloud or something. She was on the front of that ship headed to a place where she could be free and learn. And she had been from this conservative Jewish community where only the boys could learn. And, and she had gone through all these troubles to try to find, to learn in spite of her culture. And here she was free to. She was going to be herself now. And I just felt, I think my dad had misgivings about whether he should have watched that show or not. But it just, it captured something that was core to who I am and was at that time. And that is, I love learning. And to me the greatest joy is to learn. And I could so relate to her not being able to learn. You know, she sees out of a sliver of the window and now the whole window is open and there's a whole sky out there and there's a whole ocean. There's so much to discover. And I think, I realize not touching you, that's all. Not everyone has that motivation. And some people want to feel comfortable and, and enjoy being reassured and there's different things. But I think part of the answer for me is that at my core I love learning. And I love learning things that are more and more real and more and more accurate and more and more. So I think Ernie is very pragmatic. He's had a hard life. He grew up in a poor family and he had to support a family already while he was in college. And I had a lot more freedom. And so for me, the questions I ask after Mormonism is okay, if I didn't have, Did I have a pre life? Do I have an afterlife? What is the purpose of life? What is the meaning life? How do we become happy? How do we live the best life? What is a spirit what is a soul? You know, I want to know what is it that this intellectual, cognitive part of our brain is, is it different from our bodies? Is it an extension of our bodies? Is it just something that has evolved and we're so I have all these questions that I ask that go beyond just a simple answer and I really want to know. It's not like I'm afraid if I find the answer to that, my whole world might fall over and I have no reason to live. I have reason to live. I love life. I love Ernie. We're going to get into that, I think is the final chapter here.

John Dehlin [02:44:34] Almost there.

Gary Horlocher [02:44:38] But I really love when I can change my view and understand a new. I'm just starting to read a book called Philosophy in the Flesh which emphasizes how cognitive science has discovered that our cognitive apparatus, that thinking we think is our soul or our spirit doing all that intellectualizing, that separate from, from our experience, from our body and our senses, is actually an extension, a metaphorical extension of our senses. And it totally makes sense. And we're doing it all the time. And existentialism takes apart. How can we be a single thing? You know, how do we. What is it to be, you know, the fish is in the water bowl. What is it like to be a fish? Well, you can't tell because that's all the fish knows. And if we do that to ourselves, what is it to be a human? That's what existentialism is about, is, is answering that question. And when you read through all this kind of complex head heavy stuff, you start to realize that you don't need a body mind separation in order to explain humans. It's all there. And so it's just, I love learning and when DNA came into genealogy, I love that it's so fun, but I'm not afraid to learn. And I've always loved college and the more college, you know, I, you know, I, I wasn't married, so I had an ability to get my master's degree and then later went back and took advantage of this situation to get a PhD. I just loved learning. And I think for me that's why. It's not that I'm afraid or that religious people aren't good people. I think they are good. But like Ernie said, the last part of that answer is that we've discovered that the answers we find have just as much values, orientation and reasoning for living life. They switch things around. So, you know, some of my siblings were kind of hoping mom would die early. So she, you know, she said, you know, it's hard to see her suffer, but it's really about them. It's not about her. And for me, I want to watch how she goes through this so I can figure this out. And I want to be there and I want to see what she has to live for at each stage at that process as she was dying. And so I had a motivation to be there with her right to the end. And mom thought her sister daughters would be the ones to take care of her, but they couldn't handle her, they couldn't be around her.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:47:17] I might add to that this was an irony, at least for me, that the believers in the family, and it was the non believers in the family, Garen, his brother, his mom, would stay three days with us, four days with that family. And this went on for a long time as she was diminishing. Eventually we even moved to bed into George's home. And then the last two weeks, Gary was able to be with her. But what puzzled me was it seems to me that because their beliefs were so strong, they actually kind of were waiting for her to pass so that she could be happy. And yet they're losing this opportunity to be with her while she's alive.

Gary Horlocher [02:47:59] So there's this different set of values, but they're every bit as valuable and, you know, something that are dear and to hold to and to live for as anything you get in a religious value system.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:48:13] So beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:48:14] Beautiful.

Gary Horlocher [02:48:15] Well, yeah, carried away on that one.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:48:18] I mean, I loved it.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:19] I loved it, Gary.

John Dehlin [02:48:20] Yeah, that was beautiful. And for, you know, for our believing audience, I don't want people to think that what we're saying is that if you are a believer, you're not good around people, people's death, because clearly it's going to be a distribution. Don't deal with that too. And, but, but you, you dealt with the question I was going to ask, which is some people would say that takes all the joy and meaning and fulfillment and happiness out of life to lose a belief in God or Jesus or the afterlife. And you're, you're witnesses that for you it's actually increased your joy and happiness. But that may not be. You're not preaching. That is the truth, right, either. Right.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:49:00] Because I now find what you just said is what our believer makes state as astounding that they would think that there could be no joy or happiness or that I would be deprived of fulfillment and meaning and purpose by losing the belief in God or afterlife, when actually it's for me personally, it is reversed. It's enhanced life considerably. And it doesn't mean that it's necessarily easier. Sometimes I can almost have an envy for those who comfortably accept, you know, the challenges of life or loss of life, because it's going to go on. And that sometimes I think is. May rob people of real grief from my viewpoint, because I feel that the loss is permanent. And so I find myself grieving in ways that I never would have when I was a believer because I was so assured everything's going to be fine and we're going to be together again, etc.

Gary Horlocher [02:49:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:58] Yeah. Beautiful. Okay, well, let's switch to the final chapters. You say, which is your love. Now I'm going to tee this up, and that's that both of you went many, many decades not knowing the love of your life, and then you appear to have found it. And I. I read in one of the parts of your outline that you don't want to be put yourselves on a pedestal because no one's perfect. And, you know, there are always issues. And, you know, maybe we've. Maybe we've wanted to move away a bit from, like, role models or profits or, like, you know, but at the same time, I think any of us that have witnessed your relationship have been inspired by your love and your joy with each other. And so maybe each of you take a stab at what it was like to find true love or find meaningful love and how you. In some ways, you're trying to make up for lost time, but also just enjoy each other now that you've found each other. Who wants to go first?

Reflections on Their Relationship and Life Together

Gary Horlocher [02:51:03] You can let me go first. Oh, my. Yeah. I have a long list of the highlights of our time together that I was thinking of, but I'd have to sit and read through it because we've had so many. And I think. I think it's been a progression for us. So we were best friends already at the beginning, and I think as time has passed, we've gotten closer and closer. We're relaxing and becoming a couple more. I was an individual up until my mid-30s, you know, 36 or. I don't know. So I wasn't initially ready to be a we completely. So that's part of the reason why I encouraged him to continue being himself himself, because this. But over the years since then, you know, it's hard for me to. I mean, we think about what's life, you know, who's going to die first and, you know, what's life going to be like as we approach the end of life. And. And it's really Hard for me to sometimes think of life without Arnie. It certainly wouldn't be the same as it is now. And we've done so many things together. We made a trip to the west coast of Norway. When I was in Norway, people would talk about Hurtj Rute, which is a shuttle that goes along the west coast of Norway from the border to Russia, down to Bergen in the south. And that was a dream trip for me. And then last year we went. Or this year, earlier this year, we went and did the Danube river, which switches to the Main river and down up to the Rhine river, eventually coming out at Amsterdam from Budapest. And we just danced all our way up through the Central Europe on the top of that boat and watching the castles going by and. And it was such a bonding time to have almost three weeks together there. And next year we're planning to go to Indonesia to see where Ernie's parents are from. And I know when we first talked at the ex Mormon thing, we had said, well, we need to do three kisses for every kiss so that we can kind of make up for lost time. And I don't know, we're just. You know, one thing I was thinking about is I often thought about it's been hard for me to let go of my brother. And, you know, he and I were so close in high school and all. And I thought, why am I thinking that way? I've got such a much even better companion now that's so much more fun and we share even more than we did before. And now I just rambling because I can't remember your original question.

John Dehlin [02:53:57] Yeah, well, Ernie, let's give you a chance to go and then I'm going to ask a follow up question.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:54:02] Stitch a question again and I'll.

John Dehlin [02:54:03] Yeah, so. Well, I'll say it this way. One of the things I learned early on as I was getting to know some LGBTQ individuals was that the term the gay lifestyle is actually an offensive term because it insinuates that your love is somehow like fundamentally structurally different than our love. So what is. What is what? What is your love lifestyle? I'll ask it that way. What is your love lifestyle now that you have each other?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:54:35] The way I approach this, aside from cruises, stepping back a bit, I would say what really makes it work for us is respect the willingness to compromise. And for me, personally, care. Now, I use that term because when we were taking care of Gary's mom, that is caring in action. And since I have met Gary, we're fundamentally different in some ways. He's introvert. I'm slightly extrovert. And so we learn from each other. But what has happened to me in my perspective ever since I've met Gary is he's changed. How has he changed? In the most important way, he seems to be more caring the longer we're together. That, you know, I just feel like I'm spoiled as hell sometimes because he so concerned about my needs, my desires, what works for Ernie that. But I'm just baffled that somebody could be so kind and good to me. But we have a great amount of respect and if there is conflict, we generally want to understand and say, wait a minute, what's going on here? And you've are probably familiar with studies that shown that, you know, if there's a 5 to 1 ratio that's going to become a successful marriage, what to what? Yeah, so God, positives to negatives, right

John Dehlin [02:56:09] to one ratio, positive to negative.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:56:11] And if there's a one to one or a two to one, they will tell you, I forget the guy's. We will tell you that's a relationship headed for disaster. Really reluctant to say this, but I think we're definitely over the range of 10 to 1 more be like 14 to 1. And yet when that one happens, it can be really just as penetrating as anything. And so we apparently have developed in time how we overcome that. And instead of three days or a week, I know some people will keep grudges for years. We tend to resolve those issues very quickly, but in a very gentle and respectful and kind way to the other. I mean, that's one of the characteristics of this guy. He's not one to shout or scream or get angry. He's just very gentle. And we've learned how we operate that one of us may need a little bit more time. But it's actually a beautiful thing because we find ourselves overcoming difficulties so quickly.

Gary Horlocher [02:57:17] I think if I do something that hurts Ernie, then I'm hurting myself. And I guess this is where we become entangled a little bit as a couple. But I said to him, you know, I need it maybe three days before to figure out what I'd done wrong because it's a blind spot. But I can't handle more than three hours now. I just. We've got to talk about this or you know, I just. This hurts me to see you hurt and it's my fault. And you know, so I think. Yeah, go ahead.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:57:52] Well, I was going to say I don't know if I should share this. And after saying that, just share it. Right. It's like, well, wait a minute, it. But because we have no gospel story, right, we both enjoy sci fi and so we make up our own stories now. And so part of that is, you know, I have a suspicion that I might be a time traveler. And the price you pay for that is you lose memory. So I don't know where the heck I'm from, but I know I'm in the human future and that I've got some Romulan background and I was supposed to find and hunt and bring back these ideal humans, except when I found him, I ran off with him. And so the continuation of that is, you know, with a memory loss and maybe it's a practice for dementia. I keep meeting Gary again and again. And so if we go to a bar, to a party, I cruise in, but I try to be careful because you don't want to be too aggressive and scare somebody like him away.

Gary Horlocher [02:58:48] Sometimes we get separated and then we, and then we see each other across the room and we just like pretend like we're meeting for the first time and have so much fun with that and get friends.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [02:59:00] Love it.

Gary Horlocher [02:59:01] So where are you from? And you know, where you stand tonight. You need a place and you can come home anyway, we just, you know, a relationship can be new all the time. And I think, you know, studying relationships at BYU and the literature on relationships, communication is always one of the biggest variables for all relationships. And a second one is having commonalities. The more commonalities, the better. We sometimes are attracted to opposites and we think that that's important, but it's really superficial. It's the commonalities that create good relationships. And I think this five to one as a minimum is important to understand as a ratio of positive to negative. And you know, I read lots of gay, lesbian, heterosexual studies where they compare them and the variables are the same and the relationships work the same. And you know, the old studies from the 50s were problematic. And the people that are anti gay like to go back to those and say, well, they're promiscuous and they don't last long. But, you know, the studies that have been done in the last 20 years are showing that these relationships, they're about two people and they're the same same issues. And one of the differences that did come up when they studied these relationships was that there was more equality in gay and lesbian relationships than in hetero relationships. So, you know, I'm okay with that. I think it's a good thing. And I think maybe we can understand what women deal with when men just take for granted things and sometimes interrupt each other, interrupt the woman and doesn't listen very good to what she's saying because they're waiting for the next chance to say something. And, you know, we don't realize this because we have a blind spot. We don't know what we don't know. And. But how do you figure that out? Well, when you're in a same sex relationship, they're gonna let you know they don't like it.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:01:11] Because this brings a good point, though, as to cultural roles. A wife and a husband. And so when you have two men, you actually have this freedom to navigate and say, well, who shall be responsible for what? But I think this also parallels and should parallel couples who leave the church. Simone Beauvoir is a great philosopher, and she wrote a book in the 40s called the Second Sex, and it was autobiographical. But what she pointed out is she said, I am a woman, and womanhood for centuries have been defined by men and that it was time for women to identify themselves. So I've talked to a lot of friends and women that have left the church and, and it's been a wonderful journey now of them deciding for themselves, who am I? What is my identity, what should be my role, along with their husband. And I think it's important for the men to hear that, to give them that opportunity, because often in ignorance, they don't know that they are falling into this role of, well, I know better and you should be doing this. And I'd say challenge that, stand up to that, because that's nonsense.

John Dehlin [03:02:25] Margi's nodding.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:27] Yeah. I just think there's so much that we can observe and cherish, I think, in the relationships of LGBTQIA relationships that would be so helpful to kind of the hetero experience of. There's just so much I think that we could learn from. And really. So anyway, love that, all that you're sharing, because this power, this power exploration as part of a faith transition within relationship is so, so common and it's so fraught. It is. It is a tough one for a lot of relationships that renegotiating, trying to feel seen in a way and honestly trying to create something new that hasn't existed.

Building Community, Joy, and Healthy Partnership

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:03:30] I hope this is salient to the conversation, but, you know, what do you do after you lose your belief? And I think you and I have talked about this before, John, just informally, where we realized that probably the biggest or number one challenge often for people who lose their faith and move on is a loss of community. And this is one of the remarkable things, I think, about our personal lives. When we were in California, for some reason, 95% of everybody we knew were gay community. And right now, I'd say easily 99% of our community are. We use the term framily. A family of choice friends is all coming out of the ex Mormon community. You have actually interviewed or known a lot of these people, and they're like family to us. And I'm making no exaggeration in less than a year since you, you know, Faith Erickson, her children and us have kind of adopted each other. So now we have six grandchildren instead of three. But it is that powerful of a bond that these people, it seems we have moved at warp speed because that community is so important and all the love and support and authenticity that we receive from our friends and, you know,

Gary Horlocher [03:04:54] many of these, they have the bacchavoys and the hackings and the booze and, you know, they were kind of our pods during COVID And I think that one of the reasons why they're attracted to us is that most of them have gay children. And so they're like, wow, we don't even know gay couples who would be a gay couple. So when they see us, they are curious and very warm and friendly. But we've gotten to know them and they love. They love getting, you know, they love being a part of our world, and we love them too. And it's just been very healing. I think because of. Because of the AIDS epidemic, our generation of gay people is much reduced compared to what it would have been. And a lot of. There's a lot fewer people and fewer people that are out, healthy, happy relationships. And so it's kind of. We found. And I think because of the. What do we call it, hyper masculinity in our society, it's always been a fearful thing to be around heterosexuals. If you're a gay person coming out and you feel like you, you know, first you're excited, you've got this community of people to be with, and then you cling to it like, this is the only people I can be safe with. And that's the way it's been. That. That's the way it was when we were in California. That's the way it was when I grew up in Utah. And when I came out first in Utah, all of my friends were gay, except for the people at school or work and. And now it's just been so amazing with the gay marriage and all the movies and shows that now show gay characters it's become kind of d. Tabooed or whatever. It's. It's gotten to where people are not have and, and you know, destigmatized a little bit. Yeah. And we've gotten to where we can feel free to dance on the Danube with a bunch of people we've never met before and not be afraid that somebody's going to come up and smack us in the face. You know, that's what might have happened to Utah back in the 70s or 80s and you know, all those gay bashing kinds of things. And so I just think it's remarkable that we have, since we came to Utah, almost all of our friends are not gay people. They're, you know, they may be parents of gay people, but they're just people and we're just all connecting as couples and people that share a common past.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:07:27] Yeah. And the larger point that I want to emphasize to people who are listening, particularly if they're going through a faith crisis or they are through one, is well, find others. And I would point out that maybe just having a faith crisis in common may not be enough, but find others with similar values. Authenticity, respect, caring. And that's where we have, you know, COCA couples of a certain age, MOCA men of a certain age, you know, to make that effort to find friends by being a friend. And at the same time, though, I would say healthy friendships that you need to be aware of that befriend those that you know are good for you and that you can be good in return to.

John Dehlin [03:08:16] I love it. I, I remember when I was holding works, marriage workshops or couples workshops or retreats, having you two be the only, you know, gay couple or same sex couple and how like I'm thinking this feels very different than the world I have normally lived in, but like almost in a, in a really exciting, boundary breaking way to just have. It's Gary and Ernie and it's, you know, you. What if we just stop thinking about the, the genders or the gender expression of the couples and just, what if we just all enjoy each other however we show up and I just, you know, or karaoke is like so oftentimes the karaoke parties we've had, you know, a bunch of straight couples and then Gary, Gary and Ernie and just how much joy you, you two always bring to all these events and how you model this love that many of us straight couples just really are thinking, wow, we, we could use a little bit more of that in our lives. It's been so beautiful to have you as a part of Our community, just to all be in a community together. It's one of the beautiful things about the post Mormon community to have you two in it, honestly.

Gary Horlocher [03:09:30] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:31] And it really, I think, speaks to the power of visibility.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:09:35] Yeah, right, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:09:37] In our lives. Like how transformative that really is at, like what you were saying, Gary, this idea of blind spots that we have blind spots that can live and breathe when they're in a vacuum or when they live unchallenged in our realities. And so, I mean, the idea of visibility is real and that's, you know, around, you know, gender identity, sexual identity, you know, all the things. All the things, right. All the expansiveness of just how humans show up in this world in all the beauty and variation, you know, I'm

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:10:15] really glad you brought that up because I hadn't thought of it that way. But sure enough, we had an example of that. Only three weeks ago, Gary's niece asked me if I would perform the marriage her and her fiance. And when I did, it was. Where was it, Gary? Somewhere up in northern Utah. But I was aware that half the audience was TVM and half was not

John Dehlin [03:10:40] and true believing Mormon, orthodox Mormon for those who aren't Mormon.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:10:46] And you know, there wasn't a program to say who was going to be the minister. And so I performed a marriage. And what was interesting, you talk about visibility, a lot of people apparently said, hey, that was beautiful, that was wonderful, etc. And that night, for those who didn't know us then, they see I had the ministers dancing with this guy on the floor, what's going on? And some of their eyes were really big because he had never seen anything like that. But having the preface of a wonderful first of all experience that kind of humanizes me, it made a huge difference. And they started dancing with us, some of them. And I could tell that that was the first time they'd ever seen two guys dance.

Gary Horlocher [03:11:27] It was very healing to me, the dancing at the end of the day at the reception, because my brother was there that I was close to and I said hi to him and he didn't say anything else to me the rest of the night. And that's fine. I've kind of let go of that and I respect his journey, but his kids were there and his son wanted to give me his baby to hold and was just so beautiful. And my sister, who I adore very much and admire, but who is afraid of things, afraid of the world, she had her daughter and her daughter joined our dance group. We had a big group of us Dancing in a circle. And she was there dancing in a. It was like I was a kid again and dancing with my little sister. And it just felt like that piece of me has just been healed a little bit by having that. Just her dancing without being like wondering who's looking and is this okay? Am I encouraging something that should be evil or, you know, all those things that. And then my brother John. Yeah. Who I haven't been close to. But. But it's really more. Because we don't live near each other and. And he's kind of in between as far as the church goes. Anyway, he. He got up. He was, you know, he's making. He was enjoying watching us dance. He was just really having. And I wasn't sure if he was. You know, sometimes he likes to make fun of people as a joke tease. And then he got out and started dancing himself and he just about fell over several times. But that was so beautiful being able to dance with my brother and see that it was genuine. He really wanted to let us know that he was okay and loved to see us dancing and he wanted to be a part of that. But. Yeah. That was a beautiful wedding.

John Dehlin [03:13:28] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [03:13:29] I have a quick question for you guys around. Oh, it feels like in many ways you have taken the time to create a new blueprint, you know, for joy, for love, for so, so many things. And I just, I thought. I am very curious around on some level when you both, I feel like, have experienced real moments of suffering, you know, extended periods of time where you were absorbing a lot of messages that were aggressive about who you are, about how to think of yourselves. And I'm just curious, how has it been. Are there practices? How would you describe the journey where you move and shift away? And let's just all include the conditioning of the church too, because I think this idea of both of you trying to. To go to such great lengths to live the formula, to live the. And to make it work, that you are self betraying and you're taking the hits to sort of so, so committed to what's been prescribed by other people for you. How did you make that shift from suffering to claim joy, to actually say we're worthy of joy and we're claiming it now in our lives?

Gary Horlocher [03:15:01] Well, I think it's been a process and I think that stoicism, even though that's more Ernie's philosophy, really helps because if you look at the glass half full or that glass half empty, it's the same glass, but you get a different emotional reaction and it's been about process of. How can I think of this in a different way that doesn't come create such a negative outcome for me? I love my family, but what do I mean by love? You know, I'm always trying to understand all these things. What do they mean by love when they tell me this, but they treat me this way, you know, am I showing respect for their beliefs? How do I do that? Can I do that better by not being around them, you know, reframing things instead of, we never get together anymore and they don't want their kids around me. That's kind of a negative way. How can I say, well, I love my sister and I know she's vulnerable, and maybe I need to give her that and let her have the space. And that's my way of showing love. And I've got other sisters in my life now that I've just, You know, Ernie's family has been so fun. We've had so many times getting together and playing music and dancing and jumping up in the air and doing our little line dancing, and it's just so bonding. And it's like, why should I suffer when there's so much beauty? I have the best life, you know? Yeah. I also have some things that could be the worst if I focused on them that way. But. But I think that's what a lot of stoicism is really about, is reframing it and saying, you know, this is not leading to the right outcome. I guess cognitive behavioral therapy. Behavioral therapy does the same thing. They try to question the lens you're looking at and how do you see it in a way that, I mean, I can't change them. I don't want to change them, but I need to resolve that a little bit so that I can have that space to. And so, I don't know, I'm always kind of working with that, trying to find something, I just might add.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:17:20] My family loves Gary. And I don't know if you've ever seen the Star Trek version where Spock goes back to Sacramento or in time, right? And he tries to swear, and it just doesn't fit. And my family, my nieces and nephews, have been trying to teach Gary to swear. And sometimes it's just like, Spock, no, that's the wrong spot. Wait, no, don't say it like that. We won't illustrate here. But anyway, getting to your question, Margaret, I realized, and I. Even in preparing for this, a thought came back to me of what I used to kind of do a little ritual with my Kids. And I was trying to make at least two points. One which has taken a lifetime for me to actually pin down, and the other, which has always been part of my life. But I would say to them, all right now, what's the most important thing in the world? And they would say, love, Love. And I'd say, right now, who's the most important person to love? And they'd say, myself. That's the one that's taken a lifetime. And the other thing I would say now, trust me. But I swear that one of life's greatest blessings is having good friends. So then I would ask them, what's the secret to having a good friend? And they'd say, be one. And so in a way, if you say yes, there's always been this suffering, but now I look on it as almost instructive to me. And we don't have continued suffering, but rather joy. And if anything, maybe this is another way to put it. But like we both. I grew up poor. And you know what? I value that. Why? Because I feel like my life is in such abundance now because I have this contrast. And so maybe, you know, the joy that we experience. I'm at an ultimate high because I have known what it's like to be in the Deep Valley.

Gary Horlocher [03:19:21] I read a study that compared older men, Hispanic men, black men, and white Caucasian men. And as they were aging and dealing with aging issues and the white men were having the hardest time because. And you know, the highest probable reason why is because they'd always been in control and been able to push their way through. And these Hispanic and black men had spent a lifetime of dealing with. With unfair situations and trying to. And a lot of them had developed a lot of resilience and a lot of ways to. Ernie's dad was amazing. The way he just never took anything personal and just laughed and make a joke. That's true. And just can't afford to be offended.

John Dehlin [03:20:12] You gotta stay resilient to just survive, right?

Gary Horlocher [03:20:15] Yeah. What a great way to face the end of life is learning from those kinds of struggles so that because we are going to fail, our bodies are going to start failing and people aren't going to pay attention when we talk and might not think we're so cute anymore and look past us and I don't know, there's all kinds of things that people deal with. But anyway, I'm very happy to have Ernie by my side through this part of their journey. It's actually just getting better and better. I know a lot of people think that A long term, monogamous, committed relationship must be super boring. And, you know, and it's just gotten better and better for us. And I think that maybe that's not the majority, but there's definitely a subset of couples that just get more and more free and just, you know, learn to. Their lives start to go smoother and smoother. My sister, you know, sorry, just add one little detail. I think sometimes when my sisters talk to me, they say, gary, how are you? And you know, I've had Crohn's disease. I've had a lot of pain. I've been to the hospital a lot. But I'm doing better now than I've ever done in my whole life. I'm happier, my body's healthier. And it's like they're inviting me to tell a sad story so they can be empathetic. And I'm. And I'm like, at least that's the way it sounds to me when I hear that, how are you? And it's like they must imagine my life really bad and miserable. And it's like, I don't know what to say except, you know, I'm doing good, I'm happy. But anyway, it's fun that sometimes relationships can get better and better. I know it's hard when people have kids and the money issues and where you can of work out your relationship and communication. How can you fit all that in with all these demands? And it's. Relationships do go down when people have kids and you know, it's. But also nowadays they found that relationships in general are better because people get out of bad relationships they didn't used to. They stick with it a lifetime, a lifetime of misery. And now you've got people in general, more happy couples together. And second and third marriages tend to be better in general. So anyway, I love the way we're living our life.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:22:44] And I don't know if this makes any sense, but this is my experience. See, I think I'm still. It's part of the journey of life. I'm still learning about myself. And so I continue to learn about Gary. We never arrive. And so it's not dull at all. And matter of fact, I'll learn some things. And I'm like, oh, I didn't know that. And I remember when you were on the ex Mormon cruise and you introduced us to the five love languages and you said, I want you to jot down, you know, and that's really informative and twofold. Understanding another person and figuring out yourself. And so I Was surprised at that time. We basically are lying. Gifts aren't that big of a deal with us. You know, we don't keep anniversaries so that we can have a happy birthday six times a year or something like that. We just make it up. Right, Gary?

Gary Horlocher [03:23:37] Yeah, yeah. Happy birthday, Ernie. I just ordered you something. So we do this all the time.

Margi Dehlin [03:23:43] I love that idea.

Gary Horlocher [03:23:44] Celebrating birthdays and anniversaries all year long.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:23:47] Well, people get so tired, like you did. Remember this if you really love me. And I'm like, whoa.

Gary Horlocher [03:23:52] Well, and what do you celebrate? Do you celebrate when we ran up to Vancouver to get married as I did a marathon? Or do you when our friends put on a wedding for us in California or when we first moved in together and before gay marriage was allowed even? You know, it's like you start to get. I think this is typical of our cohort of gay people is they have several places, milestones that they could all celebrate. So anyway, we just celebrate all the time. Covid was a good time. We'd go for walks and date twice a day. And I think that now I can work from home. It gives us a lot more time together. We love to exercise, we go hiking. We love to. Ernie doesn't seem to mind following my crazy ideas at times. So when we were in la, I would say, well, you rollerblade and I'll jog. And so we'd start down at Palos Verdes or down at Torrance beach, and we'd go all the way up to Santa Monica, and then we'd turn around, come back in the last four or five miles in the dark and cold. And I'm like, oh, that was probably about idea.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:25:09] 50 miles.

Gary Horlocher [03:25:10] But he never says no. And he's always going with me on these adventures. And he listens to me go on and on about why would anyone want to hear for two hours me to talk about my academic research? And he never seems to tire of it. And he's always given me more ideas. And now I bug him about my research, tell him about the Finnish family I can't find, or the Dutch death records. Death notices. I'm translating anyway.

John Dehlin [03:25:41] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:42] I mean, really, how do you not.

John Dehlin [03:25:45] I know. And everybody should have the experience of, like, karaoke or dancing with Gary and Ernie. Because you guys, you're kind of in your own world when. When there's dancing going on.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:25:57] What's that about? That's actually accurate. We, first of all, we both kind of have decided that dance is the metaphor of life for us. Because in A symphony, meaning you have your ups and downs and all kinds of challenges, and then we adapt and move to it. And it's accurate to say that when we go to a party, just. I don't know what it is, but, you know, we just love to go at it.

Gary Horlocher [03:26:24] There's a lot of people want to dance once we start, when they start. I want to say that in the heterosexual dancing, you have a leader and a follower, and the leader is the man and the follower is the woman. So we did a lot of swing dancing in high school, and I try to swing Ernie and he's going to try and swing me, and it's not going to go so well. We're not really professional enough to learn how to be the follower. And so we've kind of developed our own little lead and follow thing that is just really quite fun where he. He follows me and I follow him and we just dancing all over the place.

Margi Dehlin [03:27:02] I'm so glad that you asked that, John, because it's, as you explain it, that is what it feels like to watch you. It's very fluid. Right. And it's just a beautiful coming together. Yeah. I hope everyone. I would hope, like, put a link to a video, wish everyone to have the gift of seeing. Anyway,

Gary Horlocher [03:27:32] we went to the Ward's house last night for a party. Ward party. Anyway, we won't say identities, but anyway, I thought, you know, here's all these people. Initially we didn't know anybody and we got up and started dancing and boy, everybody wanted to. To talk and it was just such a fun party. Everybody just opened up and dance is not just a metaphor for life, but it's a joint activity where you bond. You know, our interview is a bonding time, us telling our personal stories with you. I don't think we'll ever think the same way. You know, it adds to our relationship. But dancing does that too when you're around a bunch of people and especially when people want to dance too. And, you know, actually we were up at Sundance and dancing, I mean, it's just amazing the way we can do things out in public. I'm not giving Ernie a chance.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:28:29] I'm actually going to say I'm going to deviate here since I can. Right. And we really appreciate that we live in modern times, but for modern technology and medicine and science, Gary would not be alive. And I would really, really be deprived of a life because of my hearing impairment, which is quite severe. And it's been 45 years. And where my deviation goes is I'd like To say to everybody, you do need to be aware. Taca asks me to do a presentation on hearing loss. And I told them, I said, look. And they were surprised. Most people are when Helen Keller, as you know, she was deaf and blind, said, if we could restore one of those senses, which would it be? She says, that's easy. It would be hearing. And people are saying, what do you mean by that? She said, if you lose your sight, you lose touch with things, but if you lose your hearing, you lose touch with people. And so, hey, ladies out there or anybody, if you have a spouse or somebody that's not addressing this, then hear. Here's the one thing you need to know that I told the crowd. If you don't remember anything, remember this one thing about hearing loss. Untreated hearing loss now has shown to greatly increase the risk of the onset and the process of dementia and Alzheimer's. And part of that has to do again with community, because if you can't hear, you lose the ability to interact. And so, you know, I'm really glad I have these, because it's gotten better and better. That's the other thing I want to tell people. Hey, this has really improved. This has got 22 channels. I can hear better than I could at 18.

Gary Horlocher [03:30:16] So there's a commercial for hearing aids. There's a commercial for older men and women that are in the audience.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:30:22] This idea of being responsible for your lives, right? We recognize, you know, there's a lot of knowledge out there, so we want to be healthy, and we want to do things that contribute to our longevity. And so we read a lot and study up a lot. And this is why we do a lot of things. Although I hate the word exercise kind of has a connotation of, oh, I got to get out there. So what we do is we just engage in physical things that we enjoy. Rollerblading, hiking. We've been going to a Zuma class about for two months now, and we're learning how to, you know, do it as a group.

Gary Horlocher [03:30:55] It's so fun. I wanted to say something about his hearing aids, because last week we were at a family. His Horseman's Haw family. Where was it? Capitol Reef? Torrey. Torrey. Anyway, so he's got these hearing aids. So we go up on a hike with his daughter's family to Lower Calf Creek. People know that area. And we're sitting there and, you know, enjoying the rest at the end of the hike before you head back. And Ernie can do remote bluetooth to his hearing aids, his music. So Often he'll start dancing and everyone's like, wow, look at Ernie, he's dancing. And sometimes I try to dance with him, but I don't have the music. So we were at Calf Creek on the sand there, and I started dancing with him a little bit and this Hispanic lady was there watching us. She's like, what were you guys doing? Tell me about that. What was that? And so I explained to him, but I just thought it's really quite a fun thing that we love to do. I have some speakers, but we haven't figured out how to get them to go to his hearing aids and my speakers at the same time. So anyway, technology will figure it out soon, I'm sure.

Margi Dehlin [03:32:11] Yeah. What I see so much with the dancing with you, all that I love so much is, you know, oftentimes we can get into our thoughts, into our heads, and that's good and beautiful and fun to explore, you know, and then there are also moments when it can be incredibly helpful to put it down and to dance and to get outside of our heads and to be in spaces of sense of senses and connecting. And that's what I really, really see in, in the both of you, is that both of these spaces are very valued by you both and developed and. And I think that balance is important because I think oftentimes what you see is that particularly in a, in a transition space is like that it gets so magnified. You, you just, it. It kind of shrinks. And in the time of questioning and breaking down, do you, do you find this. I'm curious if you relate to this idea but like it gets hyper focused beliefs and you're trying to figure it out and the lens and the world just becomes so small. And what I'm seeing in this, this conversation with you both is, you know, and there's. That there's a place for that. Right? There's a place for. And a time and a working through. But eventually I wonder if part of healing isn't. And I see this in you when you go to gratitude and you're talking about when now, when we live and the current times are. But on some level, part of healing is realizing that that was a small part and to be able to pull out and have that bigger picture of life, that bigger. That will allow for dancing, that will allow for, you know, the time and space that we inhabit now as opposed to just this, you know. Will you speak to that for a minute? Because I see it so in both of you.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:34:22] I agree. You know, and being as extroverted As I am. I've learned from Gary's value of paying attention to me and going in my inner world. And so I'm a swimmer, and what I love about that is all I have to worry about is air. And I've swam enough that I don't even worry about that, but to give myself the opportunity to just back off and to have time for that space. And we do this with. Sometimes with our walks. Right. Or with some activities we do. And it is significant because if you're always in your mind, and sometimes I wonder if there's a correlation here of what's going on, but apparently in the younger generations, there's an increase of anxiety, depression, you know, social anxiety, and. And it's. It's. It's sad. And we have a lot of nieces and nephews. Will I address that with them, you know, and say, hey, what about. You know, but this. So I like what you're saying.

Gary Horlocher [03:35:19] Kind of counterintuitive that. That, you know, being such intellectuals and thinking through all these heavy things, and here I'm a genealogist, and I'm doing all this heavy research all day long, but it's kind of led us to a place where some things we thought matter don't really matter anymore. And it's so freeing and fun to just run in the park. And, you know, Ernie has got more of a kid in him than me, but I try to follow, and once I do, you know, he'll run up the hill, and I run up the hill behind him. It lets off these happy hormones or whatever they are, chemistry. And we were Ernie's. We were in the Zion's Narrows one time, and it's kind of busy on the trail there, but we. Ernie started running, I started following him. And we're moving our hands like this, and I'm moving my hands in his. And then pretty soon, two other Chinese kids, Chinese kids, kids start doing it to tourists that are following us. It just creates this happiness, and it's like, why don't we do that more? Why don't we run just for running, you know, Ernie one time was just listening to his music, and he was running around the schoolyard next to our house and just having fun. And it just. We need that. I need that. And sometimes. And there is definitely a switch I find when I'm working, working, and it's time to turn off work and. And try to let out the inner kid. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:36:48] Power of play.

John Dehlin [03:36:49] Yeah. Plays important.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:36:52] I. I just wanted to add to that that I really. There's Like a scripture, I just say, okay, this is nonsense. This is wrong. And it's the one where it says, you know, hey, you're an adult now, so you put childish things away. Oh, that does a great disservice to deny that, you know, our own child in our own. Yeah, I mean, I just think it's very wrong.

John Dehlin [03:37:14] Yeah, yeah. Beautiful. Yeah, yeah. To see you two in action, there's a sense of joy and a sense of play and a sense of intimacy. That's really inspiring. So that's one of the reasons we wanted to have you on. All right, well, I think we're kind of. We're a little past three, but we're not quite at four. I think it's.

Margi Dehlin [03:37:36] I have a final question. Slide it just in just one final. And that is, you know, when we partner, oftentimes that the health of that partnership also. Also. Well, oftentimes is indicative of the health of the people involved. Right. And so I guess I wanted to ask about your personal practices or things that you do. So, Gary, I remember at one point Ernie saying that you were telling Ernie to keep exploring or to keep on your journey of. So, yeah, anything you want to share about things that help you show up individually in this way to build a healthier partnership and to keep yourselves kind of learning, healing, growing, feeling alive. Anything that comes to mind.

Gary Horlocher [03:38:44] Yeah. I'm not sure if I understand fully. One thing that came to mind is that my sensitivity has increased over time. So where I might not have known there was a problem in the past, I usually pick up on signs much quicker now. So my sensitivity has increased. That's not what you mean.

Margi Dehlin [03:39:08] So I love that insight, though. I feel like. So some examples of practices that I've noticed allow me to show up in a different way in my life. Some simple things I do are like. I've started a meditation practice that I really enjoy. I try to get out in nature kind of regularly because I feel like it does something. It kind of relaxes my brain and allows it to see things from a more. A wider lens. Kind of like what I was saying, when I can have a tendency to hyper focus on certain things. Those are a couple examples of practices. Do you have anything or like, reading is a big thing for me, like learning about it.

Gary Horlocher [03:40:01] For me, I like to give myself 20 minutes in the morning before I work to sit and read my philosophy book. That's kind of a peaceful time. Ernie likes. Has a. There.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:40:12] Has a trainer.

Gary Horlocher [03:40:15] Trainer he goes to on Tuesdays and Thursdays and we've Started adding Wednesday for Ernie and the dancing. And we try to do, I wouldn't say we do it every day, but at least every other day do activity after work. So we go for a 10 mile bike ride around our neighborhood or just something to spend time together. We often walk to lunch together and then we like to play racquetball together. And because competitive is not so good for us, we, we keep score because it's not as fun without score. But it's really about seeing how long we can keep that ball in play. So if we can return it 20 or 30 times, it's like, whoa, that was awesome. We're both happy cheering for each other. But yeah, we, I think the Apple watch has helped because it doesn't make that red circle all the way around until I get to 600 calories. And so usually by the time I'm done with work, I'm at 150. And so I have to find some way to make up the other 400 calories. So it's like, okay, what do we want to do? Should we go for a hike tonight or should we go for a bike ride? And so we're always communicating that way. It's, it's always an excuse to catch up on. You know, he read something on the Facebook, I read something on the news. You know, little by little you realize you have all kinds of things you need to talk about and resolve. What are we doing on the weekend? Did, did we schedule this or that?

John Dehlin [03:41:53] And chances are you're hiking with the bakavo.

Gary Horlocher [03:41:57] You've heard about the weekend?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:41:58] The weekend plan.

Gary Horlocher [03:42:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:42:01] And other. You have other hiking companions?

Gary Horlocher [03:42:04] Yep, we do. We, we, we love, love sharing that with other people too.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:42:10] So for, for me, and let me first address something that Gary mentioned, because about five years ago I met a trainer at a work party of his and I decided I would try it. But for about the first two years, I felt it was a luxury. Like people will spend money on car or a purse or something that you kind of say, well, this is luxury. And now I don't define it that way anymore. I define it as an investment. An investment in me. And I would like to say made me sense a little bit too. The payoff has been huge. I mean, in dancing or in snowshoeing or in hiking or in running or in swimming. And so the benefits, and of course me taking care of myself is good for our relationship and good for Gary. There's 14 years disparity between us. So if he's going to retire 62. And that's in eight years. Then, you know, I've got to keep myself so I can keep up with it.

Gary Horlocher [03:43:20] So, yeah, we're trying to live a. Almost like a retired lifestyle, but, you know, it's going to be a little hard that the age thing starts to make a bigger difference after midlife. And so we're trying to make the best of it we can.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:43:35] And ironically, so how far it hasn't. I mean, I shouldn't be saying this, and here I'm saying it, but, you know, bachelor will tell you he cannot keep up with me. I've got 18 years on him.

Gary Horlocher [03:43:49] Yeah, Ernie's like a rabbit, you know, he'll run up ahead and then he'll come back and he'll run up ahead and back and all around. And so, yeah, we're always teasing about Ernie's energy.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:44:00] Well, you two have to go snowshoeing with us, since you mentioned at once. And then.

Gary Horlocher [03:44:04] Yeah, yeah, we do, too.

John Dehlin [03:44:06] And pick it up, Dave. Pick it up, brother. Dave. We'll literally show you up.

Gary Horlocher [03:44:13] That's awesome.

Closing Thoughts and Words for Post-Mormons

John Dehlin [03:44:15] Okay. Well, what a beautiful four hours, huh, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [03:44:21] Absolutely.

Gary Horlocher [03:44:21] Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [03:44:23] Yeah. I hope. I hope you both feel. I don't know. I hope you've enjoyed the opportunity to share your stories. We sure have, and we're sure honored to be able to share your story. Any final thoughts or words before we close?

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:44:40] I just hope that we've shared some things that might be a benefit to somebody. Life's not always easy, you know, we need to be there for each other. Right. But it's. It's been a privilege to get to share our stories. And, you know, we're still writing it with this guy. You know, I'm not going to trade him in. I've decided

Gary Horlocher [03:45:07] I'm having such a beautiful life right now. You know, I know a lot of people can't hold their partner all night because of body heat or whatever, but I just love falling asleep with Ernie in my arms and then waking up with me in his arms or whatever. You know, we roll around during the night. But whatever I missed during my teenage young adult years, it's like I think I've just had an abundance of it since. And I just feel so full and happy being with this guy and sharing my life with him and adventures. And I'm so looking forward to facing the end of life together. Hope that something doesn't happen to stop that. But we do the best we can. I think the times I've been in the hospital when he's been in the hospital. We're just totally there for each other and we've had such a beautiful time. I think the best of Mormonism is what we see in our post Mormon friends. They're the greatest part of our lives too. I want to recognize all of them because I know they're going to listen and, and you know, I wish we could name all of them by names and we've named some of them and appreciate that. I'm glad that we had a chance to cover so much because, you know, I thought, I've thought before in the past it'd be nice to talk about this or that and I thought, well, we're not going to get to that in this short time. But we got through most of it. I think there's not a lot of things on my list that didn't get said so. And there were a lot of things, things that I didn't have on my list so that God said that God said so. This has been a beautiful experience. Thank you and thanks to your audience. We want to put a plug in for Mormon stories. We are supporters and we definitely, as long as John can be doing this and Margi and the others that are out there podcasting, I think it's a beautiful thing to have a support system and a way for people to start connecting and getting validation for what they're feeling and their issues.

John Dehlin [03:47:23] This commercial is brought to you by Gary and Ernie.

Gary Horlocher [03:47:31] Yeah, let's live the best life we can. This is what we know we have, we know we have and we're going to try to live our life accordingly.

Ernie Horstmanshoff [03:47:41] Yeah. And I might add that one of the joys in our life is Denise's nephews, grand nieces, grand nephews. We really advocate education so we like to support them. And, and you know, and I really get a, I don't know, fulfillment out of any time. I can help enlightened or encourage youth because it is hard and our complex world has gotten harder to some degree with Facebook and all of these different ways and attention.

Gary Horlocher [03:48:14] I think religion gives children a safe, comfortable place to build a self esteem and to go out with ambition and conquer the world. And I think sometimes it's hard to give kids that when you have ambiguity and you understand how complex the world is and that's really a big deal for childhood. Secure attachment styles. And I think it's really hard. Some of our ex Mormon friends are struggling. They have depression, they have anxiety and they maybe wouldn't have as much if they lived in a world that made as Much simple sense as they would get in a religion. So it's a tough thing. And I hope we, you know, find friends, get community. This is really important. One thing I wanted to say, too, is this word of wisdom thing. You know, we have such a different. But we have a word of wisdom. We have our own word of wisdom. We watch our calories, we try to exercise, we want to have fun and dance class and all these things. So I think this idea that if you leave Mormonism, you're going to go become a drunk and you're going to stop supporting your family, you're going to. You're going to try and have all the fun and drugs and sex you can, and then you're going to die and you're going to be miserable. And it's like, no, that's. That's not. That's not our world. We're about having the most optimal life we can, which means maybe less ice cream, maybe less chocolate, and, you know, maybe darker chocolate or finer chocolate. But it's not just this. Anyway, we're rambling. Thanks, John.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:07] Love it.

John Dehlin [03:50:08] I like that we have our own word of wisdom. Gosh darn it, we do. Love it.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:13] We do. Yes. Well, we feel your joy and we feel lucky to witness and feel your love, too. So thank you for sharing your story with us today. It's been a gift for us for sure.

Gary Horlocher [03:50:30] Thanks for letting us tell our story and putting it out there for people that can benefit.

John Dehlin [03:50:36] And, Margi, thanks for making this one happen. You. You were the producer behind this one, so thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:41] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:50:41] It's great to have you as partner in this.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:45] In the mix.

John Dehlin [03:50:46] In the mix. Yeah. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:50:47] Thanks, babe.

John Dehlin [03:50:48] All right, thanks, guys. Thanks, Margi. Thanks, everyone, for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks to everyone who donates, like Gary and Ernie do to make all this possible. If you want to support us, you can. @mormonstories.org Click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor and we'll provide you with this type of content. This is kind of a thrive. This is kind of a thrive episode, so to speak. But we'll. We'll keep providing you great stories for as long as you're willing to support us. So support us if you can. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, love each other here, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care.