Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 845

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's December 14, 2017. We're broadcasting to you live from Holiday, Utah in my home, and I could not be more excited for today's interview. I actually think this might be the interview of the year, maybe the half decade. I'm so super excited about this interview. Today we're interviewing Tom Kristofferson and we're interviewing him about this new book that he's recently come out with by Desert Book, called that We May Be One A Gay Mormon's Perspective on Faith and Family. And this interview is super important for so many reasons. Personally, you know, my life has been touched by the LGBT Mormon experience in very personal, direct ways through my family and through friends. Many of you will know I did my PhD dissertation on the LGBT Mormon experience. I published nine or ten academic journal articles on the topic, and it's something that I care passionately about. But of course, the LGBT Mormon experience is something that has been very, very prominent in the LDS Church over the past 10 or 15 years. And it really just like kind of polygamy kind of defined Mormonism up through the 1890s or, you know, turn of the century 1900s. And then the blacks in the priesthood issue so much defined mormonism in the 50s, let's just say 60s and 70s. The LGBT Mormon experience sort of really defines Mormonism in 2017 and let's just say over the past 10 years. But more importantly, and I have to admit, this book, you know, has generated some controversy generally. I think it's been very well received, but it's also generated controversy, especially with a lot of my listeners. And I went into this, reading this book, very cautious, probably a little bit skeptical. You're laughing because,

Tom Christofferson [00:02:54] you know, these are

John Dehlin [00:02:54] very sensitive topics that affect a lot of people. And, you know, in my opinion, lives are at stake. But I'm going to tell you four reasons why I think this book is really important. Number one, there are very few people who I've followed within sort of the Mormon circles that carries the reputation that Tom Kristofferson does in terms of his character, the way he comports himself, just the way he behaves, and his reputation. So I'm honored to have a mom orman stories just as a model for thoughtfulness, for faith, for integrity, etc. That's number one. Number two is I have read this book, and I believe that this book is created as a guide for believing LGBT Mormons, but also for their family, for their friends, for church members, and for even church leadership. It's a very important work, and I believe that it will overall have a very positive effect on the church, on its culture, and even on the church itself. So that's why it's important, specifically around how it might help the family of LGBT Mormons treat their LGBT youth and young adults differently. If any of you are familiar with Caitlin Ryan's work, the Family Acceptance Project, she's written that a highly rejected LGBT youth is three times more likely to engage in risky sexual behavior, three times more likely to engage in risky drug use, and eight times more likely to attempt suicide if they are highly rejected by family and friends. And if I were to guess maybe what the primary motive of this book is, and Tom can tell me if I'm wrong, as we interview, it's to help believing family and friends of LGBT Mormons not reject their LGBT youth and make a place for them not only in the families, but also in the ward and the church experience. And if it's successful in doing that, it will save lives. And in that sense, I think it's a super important book. Third thing is, I think Tom is trying to offer alternative, or, I don't know, his perspectives on what might be a kindlier, gentler, more compassionate, more Christlike theology for Mormonism. And we can talk a little bit about that, but I think in 2017, we need that. We need to dig deeper and to strive harder to put forward a version of Mormonism that is more healing and more accepting and more tolerant.

Tom Christofferson [00:05:55] More inclusive.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] More inclusive. And I think Tom makes that case in this book, which makes it bigger than just the LGBT Mormon experience, in my view.

Tom Christofferson [00:06:04] I hope so.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] And then the final thing is, I think for even disaffected Mormons, this book may have something really important to offer in terms of. And we can talk about this a bit, but he talks about the refiner's fire that is trying to engage with believing family and friends and even with the church. As an LGBT Mormon, there's a refiner's fire process that that puts one through that I think even disaffected or non believing or post Mormons can benefit from if they're willing to sort of check out the book. Now, having said all that, that doesn't mean that there won't be some hard questions. Here's the but.

Tom Christofferson [00:06:47] Here's the but.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] They don't. But I just want to make sure it's explicit from the start that my intent is to sort of showcase the wonderful thing that is you in this book. So, Tom Kristofferson, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast. Thank you, John.

Tom Christofferson [00:07:03] Belatedly.

Tom Christofferson [00:07:04] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] Tom thinks that this interview will only be one hour at the most. I disagree, but I think we're going

Tom Christofferson [00:07:11] to run out of ready to get.

John Dehlin [00:07:11] He's going to tap out. When he's ready, he's going to tap out and say I'm done. So welcome. Is there anything that just at the outset you want to sort of say let's not go there. So I want to be respectful. Are there any areas where you sort of generally don't like to go?

Tom Christofferson [00:07:29] Well, you know, I always get the

Tom Christofferson [00:07:31] question of, you know, what does your

Tom Christofferson [00:07:32] brother say when you ask him?

John Dehlin [00:07:34] Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:07:35] And you know, our conversations are private between us.

Tom Christofferson [00:07:38] But the one.

Tom Christofferson [00:07:39] Thank you for that very generous introduction.

Tom Christofferson [00:07:43] The one thing I would say, just

Tom Christofferson [00:07:44] as a kind of a starting point for a conversation is my hope when I was writing the book was that this could be an element in improving the communication, the conversation that takes place within the church and within families. And it's not, you know, I didn't mean this as a here's what everyone should do. It was simply, look, here's been my experience, my family's experience, my experience in award, and I hope that might be something that generates ideas or encourages people to think about what might work best in their individual circumstance. So it's not a how to book. It's really just a here's something for you to consider. If it resonates, wonderful. And if it doesn't, wonderful. Excellent. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] Any other corrections about my long introduction? Do you accept the praise? Now I'm understanding why it's two hours long or longer. If it's two, it'll be short. Okay, so I'm just sharing this book. I do want to invite my Mormon Stories listeners who are joining us live to please feel free to share their comments or questions. We've already written down 100 plus questions from people, so we're not going to get to all your questions, but we do want to welcome people to share. So with that, let's Begin. Let's talk about your early experience as a Mormon, what the church meant to you as a youth, and then weave in your first understandings of same sex attraction.

Tom's Early Awareness of Same-Sex Attraction

Tom Christofferson [00:09:18] You know, honestly, I think the first understanding of same sex attraction might have

Tom Christofferson [00:09:23] come sooner than any real understanding of

Tom Christofferson [00:09:25] the church because I remember experience about age 5 when I sort of understood

Tom Christofferson [00:09:33] that I reacted to something differently than

Tom Christofferson [00:09:36] my brothers did and didn't have language to explain what that was. But I knew that there was an element where we were different. And it wasn't until I was probably in junior high that I figured out what that really was. And I think junior high was also the point where a very engaged, believing family translated into the beginning of some personal experiences in my own understanding of the church and my own developing sense of what that would mean in my life.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] So you knew from a very early age. Talk just a little bit more about what faith meant in your family. How did your family, in what ways were they orthodox or devout? And how did they, what type of family, faith based family, did they build?

Tom Christofferson [00:10:29] You know, we, I think the big

Tom Christofferson [00:10:32] experience in our family that was during my lifetime anyway, that really was the solidifying of the connection to the church was that we moved to New Jersey from Utah when I was three. So I'm the youngest of five boys in my family and dad was a veterinarian. He'd been immediately before we left, he'd been the Utah State veterinarian and then accepted a position with Squib in New Jersey doing veterinary pharmaceutical research and development. And when we got to New Jersey, we were, you know, being Mormon was a rarity. It wasn't something that most people had ever really encountered or understood. And I think, you know, that brought us closer together as a family, but it brought us very close to other members of the ward. And, you know, our ward was scattered over a large area and some people were from the west and had no family nearby. So the word becomes your family, and some were recent converts to the church and that might have created challenges in their families. So the word becomes your family. I think that was my early experience of the church, was that it was this very tight social network as well as all the theological aspects of it.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] How was your testimony forged early on? Did you have spiritual experiences that sort of firmed your testimony in the church? And if so, what can you say about them?

Tom Christofferson [00:12:02] I did. And I, you know, probably age appropriate ones in the sense of, you know, early experiences were pretty basic. But I started reading the Book of Mormon when I was in junior high and with the idea that I really wanted to figure out what it was all about, why that was such a big deal in our family and had experiences in that regard that were the beginning of my connectivity to the book. And I think also just the feeling of answered prayers. Junior high was a really hard time for me and going to school every day was nerve wracking experience.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] Were you bullied?

Tom Christofferson [00:12:47] You know, that's the first time anybody

Tom Christofferson [00:12:49] ever called me a homo.

Tom Christofferson [00:12:50] And I had a joke that. That's when I figured it out because I went to the library in the junior high and looked it up and realized indeed I was. But I remember I wasn't a very

Tom Christofferson [00:13:04] sporty kid, so I didn't really fit

Tom Christofferson [00:13:06] in in that sense. But I'd always had friends in elementary school that wasn't a big deal. We'd get on our bikes and go somewhere. That was kind of what you did at that era. But in junior high went from a fairly small elementary school to a huge junior high school. And I just didn't really figure out how to relate there.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] There's the stereotype that you can sort of tell if someone's gay. Right. And of course that's not true, but as I've met you and talked to you, you're. Your traits are not ones that I would go, oh, for sure. You know, when you were a kid, would you say you would have had more stereotypical traits or not or.

Tom Christofferson [00:13:48] Probably so, because it was a. I had a real phobia about, you know, whether I walked right. Or if I used my hands too much or too little or in the right way and you know, whether, you know, I had a symbol on deaths, you know, like out of what, you know. Oh, right, whatever.

Tom Christofferson [00:14:08] And to me those were all very

Tom Christofferson [00:14:10] gay traits and I needed to be sure that I wasn't doing those things.

John Dehlin [00:14:14] So you practiced or worked on not giving any signs.

Tom Christofferson [00:14:18] It was almost, I mean, in a sense especially junior high was the hardest time. It was almost like living and watching at the same moment and just being hypercritical of whether how I was conveying myself or how other people would experience it. Which is probably one of the reasons I hated it so much.

John Dehlin [00:14:37] You hated middle school?

Tom Christofferson [00:14:38] Hated it.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Did high school get better?

Tom Christofferson [00:14:40] Yeah, high school was great, but it was.

Tom Christofferson [00:14:42] We moved as I started high school, we moved to a small town in central Utah, Delta. And so it was a completely different experience from anything that I had had growing up in terms of always living in suburbs of major cities. First New York and then Chicago. But to me it Was perfect. It was really. It was a small group, almost exclusively Mormon. And it kind of worked. I mean, just I found a place to fit in a great group of friends. Pardon me, who have been lifelong friends.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] Did you? Okay. There are stereotypes and even ones that decades ago the church advanced that homosexuality is a choice, that it's a factor of abuse, that it's a factor of not having the right parenting sort of role models or participants, that it's, you know, all sorts of things for you. Did you think about, you know, what the cause of it was and then or now, you know, do you have a position on. For you, if there was like a nature cause versus a nurture cause or a combination?

Tom Christofferson [00:15:55] Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:15:56] I mean, two things I'd say there. One is that was certainly in the ether.

Tom Christofferson [00:15:59] And I was aware of it. It wasn't a big preoccupation of mine. But when I did come out, it was huge for my parents. It was so hard for them at

Tom Christofferson [00:16:06] the beginning because they felt like they

Tom Christofferson [00:16:08] had done something wrong that had caused this. And it's just awful. I mean, it's such a pernicious effect of bad science or bad social science at least, that they would beat themselves up for a period of time. Dad thought he had traveled too much when I was young, and that was the problem. Mom thought she'd been too close to me, and that was the problem. And it was, you know, what a horrible thing to do to people anyway.

Tom Christofferson [00:16:34] But the other piece of that is that.

Tom Christofferson [00:16:41] That wasn't something that really that I spent a lot of time thinking about for myself. To me, it was just kind of. It is what it is. But it was also in that era, especially pre mission, something that I wanted so desperately to never have to tell anybody.

Tom Christofferson [00:16:59] This is my guilty secret, and I

Tom Christofferson [00:17:00] didn't ever want to have to talk to anybody about it because I thought it was so evil. And so my prayers so often were. Change me, I'll do this thing, I'll be so good. Just take this away or make me someone else.

Tom Christofferson [00:17:16] And I have come to feel.

Tom Christofferson [00:17:18] And it's not doctrinal, it's just my own feeling that essentially that prayer is pull the spirit out of my body, kill it and put a new one in. Because I think this is. I think my way of relating to the world is very wrapped up in kind of my. The things I think we would consider to be gay. Because to me, it's so much bigger than sex. You know, it's the emotional connection, it's the way I perceive and relate and Everything else.

John Dehlin [00:17:48] So for you, is it fair to say that you're okay with the idea that being gay or lesbian is part or maybe predominantly, you know, biological?

Tom Christofferson [00:17:58] Yeah, I think so. Okay. I mean, look, I'm no scientist, right?

Tom Christofferson [00:18:01] But it makes sense to me that,

Tom Christofferson [00:18:04] number one, I utterly convince. Nobody chose it.

Tom Christofferson [00:18:08] And it's not that it's such a horrible thing.

Tom Christofferson [00:18:09] Why would anybody choose it? Although there was a time period when it was. But it's more just like, you know, why would you choose to be different if you know when you don't, when you're making supposedly that choice, you have

Tom Christofferson [00:18:23] no sense of what any benefit is going to be.

Tom Christofferson [00:18:26] And it's just crazy, I think, even to imagine that there's a choice. I don't. Maybe there's some nurture element that's deeply in your early years, but to me, I think it's almost certainly some aspect of nature.

Absorbing Church Teachings on Homosexuality

John Dehlin [00:18:41] So did you receive or absorb the prevailing church teachings about homosexuality during the time. And if so, did that hurt you? And how.

Tom Christofferson [00:18:54] Sure.

Tom Christofferson [00:18:55] And it was, you know, I guess

Tom Christofferson [00:18:58] I had faith that somehow it could work out right. It didn't feel like I'd done anything wrong, but somehow it was there. And so I was sure God could take care of it for me. I remember being in when I was growing up, I was an early teen

Tom Christofferson [00:19:16] when you lived outside of Utah.

Tom Christofferson [00:19:17] General conference came via audio only.

Tom Christofferson [00:19:22] So you go to the Stake center

Tom Christofferson [00:19:24] and you'd hear the audio, and that was already in advance from before winging anything. You'd get reports from somebody who attended. But I remember sitting in the Stake Center. I think I was 12 or 13 when Elder Packer gave the talk about the Little Factory and dying. Just thinking, oh, my gosh, just because

Tom Christofferson [00:19:47] I didn't understand what the heck he

Tom Christofferson [00:19:49] was referring to at that point.

Tom Christofferson [00:19:50] But somehow I just. It felt to me like it was

Tom Christofferson [00:19:53] related to all these other things I was feeling and was yet another thing I just didn't want to have to talk about anyway.

John Dehlin [00:20:00] Did you. You know, there's the Miracle forgiveness book. Did any of those teachings, Fitz W. Kimball or whatever, that it's a sin, that it's evil, that it's loathsome, that it's satanic, whatever.

Tom Christofferson [00:20:11] You can keep going.

John Dehlin [00:20:13] Did that reach you as a teen?

Tom Christofferson [00:20:15] It didn't as a teen.

Tom Christofferson [00:20:16] I read it when I was on a mission. Okay. And I came away, as so many people did, thinking, if you're ever forgiven, it will be a miracle.

Tom Christofferson [00:20:24] It was like that book was so.

Tom Christofferson [00:20:28] I don't know, pessimistic almost in a sense of what it takes to be forgiven, which has not been my experience by the.

John Dehlin [00:20:37] And I want you to always feel comfortable. Just say, I don't want to talk about that. Very common. The gay men that I've interviewed never even experimented with it prior to their mission. It wasn't even, it was just like

Tom Christofferson [00:20:51] I had crushes, okay? I mean there were boys in junior high and high school that I was really attracted to, but I never did anything about it. And so, and so when I went on my mission, you know, my whole prayer was like, okay, I'll do the best I can. And then, you know, if I'm a really good missionary, you'll take this away from me.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] So you did make that prayer and what was that like? You referenced it a bit. What was it like for you to try and make it go away? What did it do to you?

Tom Christofferson [00:21:24] What was the process like?

Tom Christofferson [00:21:25] Well, for one thing,

Tom Christofferson [00:21:28] it consumes a whole lot of energy and focus that could be better spent somewhere else

Tom Christofferson [00:21:37] in my view.

Tom Christofferson [00:21:38] This is not something that's going to change by prayer. In my view. That's because Heavenly Father doesn't feel the need to change it. And so teenage years are so hard anyway. But I wasted a whole lot of energy and self flagellation on this thing that I couldn't talk to anybody about. But I knew it was so horrible somehow.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] Did you talk to your bishop about it before your mission or parents, anyone? So you didn't come out in any way prior to your mission?

Tom Christofferson [00:22:10] I did.

Tom Christofferson [00:22:12] My second oldest brother and I had a conversation one time that I think probably gave him a clue, but it wasn't necessarily, I wasn't crystal clear. He just was smart enough to figure it out.

Tom Christofferson [00:22:28] Did you.

Attempts to Change Sexual Orientation

John Dehlin [00:22:30] So in my research, one of the papers I did was on attempts to change sexual orientation. And a lot of the focus in the news and in the literature is on using like a psychotherapist to try and change your sexual orientation. But what we found was the most damaging way of attempting change was to do it through religious means, through prayer, through fasting, through hyper religiosity. Does that resonate with you? And if you can explain why, why is that particularly harmful relative to other ways to try and change?

Tom Christofferson [00:23:05] Well, among other things, I think it's

Tom Christofferson [00:23:07] damaging to faith because you think you're trying to do everything you can to be worthy of a blessing or prayer being answered. It never is. And so I think it creates all sorts of crazy little thought patterns about what you have to do or what God is like. Or what our relationship with him is like. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:31] And some people tell me if this sounds right, if you get the sense that it can be changed and then you believe that God's all powerful and you try and pray and get him to change it and he doesn't, what does that say about you?

Tom Christofferson [00:23:45] Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:23:46] It's all you.

Tom Christofferson [00:23:46] Right. Yeah. And you know, I, fortunately, I have done therapy at a couple points in

Tom Christofferson [00:23:52] my life, but did not at byu.

Tom Christofferson [00:23:53] I did it during the short period when I was married, trying to figure out what to do about that. But, you know, I think a lot of counselors, especially BYU in that era, so late 70s, early 80s, would have reinforced that idea, you know, that if this, if you're not being cured, it's

Tom Christofferson [00:24:14] because either you lack faith or you're

Tom Christofferson [00:24:16] not working hard enough.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] And my sense is that can be, that can lead to suicidal ideation or even attempts.

Tom Christofferson [00:24:24] Well, our mutual friend John Gustav Rathel would be a prime example of that. Right. That he got felt very suicidal and came, I think, quite close. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] So did you attempt repair therapies per se with psychotherapist? And then sometimes people refer to being LGBT as an illness like diabetes or a sin like gambling or even being single. Hey, other people have to be single, you know, can you talk about what's that?

Tom Christofferson [00:25:03] They always want to compare us to the old mate.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] Can you talk about those things like a disease, a sin or being single? Are those apps comparisons? And if not, why?

Tom Christofferson [00:25:16] What I said in the book is

Tom Christofferson [00:25:17] the comparison I like to make is the incidence of red hair and green eyes, which is slightly less frequent than being lgbtq, or the incidence of left handedness, which is somewhat more common than being lgbtq. To me, it's just these are just facts of life and there's not a value judgment associated with having green eyes. Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:25:43] It just is.

Tom Christofferson [00:25:44] And so, but you know, and in olden days there was a value judgment associated with being left handed. Right. It was wrong, shameful, needed to be changed. So I think there's something sort of similar there.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] But you don't. The disease comparison, do you like that?

Tom Christofferson [00:26:00] No.

John Dehlin [00:26:01] And what's inaccurate or what's. What do you not like about being

Tom Christofferson [00:26:05] compared to old maids?

John Dehlin [00:26:06] Well, you know, it's like, hey, if there are women in the church that never get married, so if there are women that men in the church that never get married that are straight, then gay people can do it too.

Tom Christofferson [00:26:16] Right. And I should apologize to any single woman in the church for having used that term.

Tom Christofferson [00:26:22] But that unfortunately I think it's coming a little less now, but that was.

Tom Christofferson [00:26:25] What was always trotted out is, you know, this wonderful woman in our ward who's never been married, you know, she.

Tom Christofferson [00:26:32] The law of chastity means that she

Tom Christofferson [00:26:34] cannot have sex outside of marriage. So it's exactly the same. And what I have tried to point out in the book and otherwise is that woman can pray every morning and she'll find the person that she loves and can choose to get married or not and everything else. Right. And yet the corollary for LGBTQ folks in the church is really to pray every day that you won't find somebody to be in love with if you're trying to remain solid.

John Dehlin [00:27:01] So there's no hope. Is that the.

Tom Christofferson [00:27:05] I think the difference is that it's. That there are personal decisions that can be made on one side of that coin that would keep one that allow a person to have a connection, an intimate connection with another individual and remain in good standing in the church. And on the other side, currently, at least, there is not a similar choice that can be made with a same sex partner.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] So no plan, basically, that involves a

Tom Christofferson [00:27:33] family or a partner or anything. My experience of being married to someone of the opposite sex was not a happy one. So I am definitely not a person to be able to speak to how that can work for others, since it didn't work for me. But I'm happy to believe that other people do have that experience and however they want to describe that, fine. It didn't work for me. And that's all I can say.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] Let's talk about that for just a second. So you served a mission. Is there anything about your mission that is particularly important to say in the context of the book and your story?

Serving a Mission as a Gay Mormon

Tom Christofferson [00:28:10] One thing I would say is that

Tom Christofferson [00:28:12] I love the experience I had. I really loved the missionaries I worked with. I loved my mission presidents. I loved the people that we taught and worked with. In that sense was Wayne Owens.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] Is that right?

Tom Christofferson [00:28:22] Yeah, Wayne and Marlene. And they were such wonderful people and still are, I'm sure. But I miss them. And.

Tom Christofferson [00:28:32] But I.

Tom Christofferson [00:28:33] But I think the important thing about mission is when I came home and

Tom Christofferson [00:28:37] sort of realized that I was still

Tom Christofferson [00:28:38] gay, that was this, you know, big aha moment of, well, so much for that deal.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] You felt like the mission might fix it.

Tom Christofferson [00:28:45] I did.

John Dehlin [00:28:45] And you. And it didn't.

Tom Christofferson [00:28:47] And clearly did.

John Dehlin [00:28:48] And you tried.

Tom Christofferson [00:28:50] You know, I just, I.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] Were you super faithful as a missionary? Were you? You know, I'm sure I could have

Tom Christofferson [00:28:54] done better, as everyone could, but I

Tom Christofferson [00:28:56] tried, you know, I felt like I put in a good, honest effort and tried to do the things that were asked. You know, just, I mean, looking at it from this vantage point, it's laughable, right? But, you know, but then it really

Tom Christofferson [00:29:12] was how I felt that somehow I

Tom Christofferson [00:29:13] could make this deal, that if I was going to do these things, then God would be required to act. And it's, you know, I look at that now, think it was a one sided deal. God never said, sure, I'll do that for you, you know, again, in my view, because he feels no need to do it.

A Mixed-Orientation Marriage and Its Challenges

John Dehlin [00:29:33] So you did marry a traditional heterosexual marriage. Can you talk just a bit about what's hard about that? You know, obviously people are going to go, oh, that's hard. But can you talk just a bit about what makes that so hard or what made it hard for you and for your wife?

Tom Christofferson [00:29:49] Well, that's really the point.

Tom Christofferson [00:29:51] It was harder for her. But I think the, you know, this was a person that I was really attracted to. You know, she was a great, she was a lot of fun and smart and engaging and, you know, so somebody that I was more attracted to than I had been with other women. And I thought, okay, great, that means this will work.

Tom Christofferson [00:30:11] We'll get married in the temple and

Tom Christofferson [00:30:12] this will all be fine.

Tom Christofferson [00:30:13] The fact that I feel no sexual

Tom Christofferson [00:30:15] attraction for it whatsoever is we'll all be taken care of. You know, it'll work out. It works out for everybody else, it'll work out for me. And that was not the case. That marriage was never consummated because I couldn't. And so, you know, I think that you couldn't.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] Like, was there aversion? Because was it just not interest? Like, like, I mean, there was a short attempt. What I'm just trying to understand, you know, there's, there's the attraction thing, whether or not you're attracted. But then also sometimes there's a version where it's like, it's just not how I'm wired. And it actually, you hear about people crying, you know, after they make attempts.

Tom Christofferson [00:30:57] So it's the latter.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] Oh my gosh.

Tom Christofferson [00:31:00] But the awful thing was really that

Tom Christofferson [00:31:05] despite any understanding, maybe intellectually she felt that it was because she wasn't attractive enough.

Tom Christofferson [00:31:16] So I felt awful about myself because

Tom Christofferson [00:31:18] I couldn't do what everybody else was doing and knew how much I'd hurt her. And she felt awful that somehow this was her fault. The marriage lasted for about a year.

Tom Christofferson [00:31:29] Whoa.

Tom Christofferson [00:31:30] It really was a horrible time.

John Dehlin [00:31:34] Some would say that's short, but it probably didn't feel short.

Tom Christofferson [00:31:36] No, that's a lot of days.

John Dehlin [00:31:39] I'm so sorry we're laughing, but.

Tom Christofferson [00:31:42] Well, you know, I have to say, I feel like experience in life is

Tom Christofferson [00:31:49] the richest in life. It's how we learn. And so I'm pretty okay with the fact that I haven't done everything that I, in retrospect, would have wanted to do or could have done differently. But that experience is one that just is so hard for me to let go of. A bitter regret and recrimination.

John Dehlin [00:32:12] You made the point in the book that it's not ours to tell someone they shouldn't try a mixed orientation marriage or that they can't be happy. I completely agree with you. You also said education is important, that people should kind of know what they're getting into. One of the more controversial, and I should say I know at least a few couples that are in mixed orientation marriages that report to me solid levels of satisfaction. So all that said, one of the more controversial findings I found, which I didn't expect, was to find out that people, LGBT Mormons in mixed heart tissue marriages, reported quality of life levels lower than people who have a debilitating disease

Tom Christofferson [00:32:58] like lupus

John Dehlin [00:33:01] that has been experienced as sort of offensive and controversial. I wasn't intending to offend. Can you see how people might report that sort of low level of quality of life? And if so, can you describe what could contribute to that other than sort of just the.

Tom Christofferson [00:33:17] The sexual element? My experience was brief enough.

Tom Christofferson [00:33:20] I don't think I have any great

Tom Christofferson [00:33:21] insight beyond having friends who, as you said, friends who are happy in those marriages and friends who are desperately unhappy. And, you know, I think the.

Tom Christofferson [00:33:33] That leads me to feel when, wherever.

Tom Christofferson [00:33:36] But he would ask me about it beforehand and there aren't that many. But if you do, my view is I think you need to know each other longer than most people do who are contemplating marriage. And I think it would be incredibly helpful to have a third party, like some kind of a counselor or therapist, guide you through exploratory conversations over a period of time. So

John Dehlin [00:34:03] what I kind of take from what you said about mixed orientation marriages is that yes, people can choose it, yes, people can report satisfaction, but that they should probably do that with the support, with getting to know each other quite well, and probably with the support of a therapist or counselor to help them through it.

Tom Christofferson [00:34:22] I think so. I think the challenges are unique and considerable from conversations that I've had with people who've had that experience over a period of time. And so anything you can do to prepare, I think is helpful. And when I think about how I approached getting married and married in the temple, it was some magical thinking that somehow simply doing this was going to change a natural outcome that was otherwise going to happen. And so I guess just learning from my error, I would hope other people would really think about it hard and try to make sure that both of them have a realistic understanding of what the challenges will be and can go into it in a really as well prepared a way as possible.

John Dehlin [00:35:13] Would you go as far as to say you would strongly caution someone to think twice before they entered into that, given your experience?

Tom Christofferson [00:35:22] Again, my experience, I think was so, you know, I think I'm a Kinsey six. There may be others who are a little more to the center of the spectrum.

John Dehlin [00:35:30] So if they're bisexual, they're going to have a better shape than if they're exclusively same sex.

Tom Christofferson [00:35:36] But I certainly think they should have, they should. Anyone should give more thought and caution and preparation than somebody who is. Where both parties purely identify as straight. Right. You know, they're, they're not going to deal with some issues, they'll deal with plenty of other issues. But you know, these issues that are unique to a mixed orientation marriage are the ones I think that need the extra thought preparation.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] Did you see a relatively high divorce rate amongst mixed orientation marriages through your time in the church?

Tom Christofferson [00:36:08] I would say anecdotally, because you gotta say my time away from the church was pretty extensive. And in that period I don't think I really was aware of any mixed orientation marriages. But in the kind of 10 years that I've been engaged in one form or another, you know, a lot of people have talked to me about their heartache and challenge and difficulty and you know, we've said, look, it's, it's not a guarantee.

Tom Christofferson [00:36:33] Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:36:33] I mean, there are people who are happy, there are people who are unhappy. I think my advice, and I think probably yours would just be do everything you can ahead of time to try to make sure you're one of the happy ones.

John Dehlin [00:36:43] Our study found divorce rates upwards of around 70%. Does that seem plausible to you or totally unreasonable?

Tom Christofferson [00:36:51] Yeah, I don't have any independent way of knowing that.

Life After Divorce and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:36:55] Okay, so once that marriage ended, where did that leave you? With the church and with your life?

Tom Christofferson [00:37:02] Well, the decision to end the marriage was part of that feeling of, look, I have gone as far as I can go down this road the way I've been traveling it. And at that point I just felt like I had done everything I could try to do to be Mormon and gay, with the gay being said quietly. And now I needed to figure out if I could be happy and gay. And, you know, there was a whole process around that too. Of, you know, I didn't, at the outset, I didn't think I'd fit in the gay community either. I mean, I sort of felt like I didn't fit as a Mormon. I didn't fit as a gay because the only thing I knew about the gay community at that time was all stereotypes.

Tom Christofferson [00:37:44] Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:37:45] And, you know, anything you got in a movie or whatever else was pretty negative. And the anecdotal conversation about it in a community was negative. And the big lesson that I learned was that after I finally got into it and figured it out was that I would still be me. And that was a big deal. I mean, it sounds so silly, but it was a big deal to come to that conclusion that I could be gay and still be me.

John Dehlin [00:38:14] Because you had that split person, right. A little bit, trying to be the public face.

Tom Christofferson [00:38:20] Well, or at least trying to not have to deal with something that I thought could be eliminated through faith or whatever else. Right. And so, but what I realized was I didn't have to be what the stereotype was. Right. It was kind of the lumberjack era. I didn't. Maybe now I look more like a lumberjack than I didn't, but I didn't have to fit in. And another thought I had was that it was all about having sex and I didn't necessarily want to have sex with everybody I met. And of course, I came to discover that was not true, but that was a stereotype I had. And I could. And even if other people were wired differently or had different desires in that aspect than I had, I could still be me and have hold on to things that I thought were important to me and discover how to do that, which I think is very much, you know, from some of my friends who've done the faith transition, the same experience of, you know, you don't have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. You can say, this is important to me and I want it to continue. And you discover that the stereotypes you have about this community that you've looked at from a distance probably aren't true, and you can discover a path for yourself that can be happy making and fulfilling.

John Dehlin [00:39:36] So I would imagine for a Mormon boy who grew up in places like Delta, Utah, and you did go to California, right, Right after byu, I would imagine that that could be really overwhelming or scary or exciting. Or intimidating. You know, gay culture, California in the 80s. I guess there was the AIDS scare, but just generally, it may have been shocking to you. How do you find your way dating and figuring out what your morals are? You kind of just talked about it, but maybe go.

Tom Christofferson [00:40:13] You know, the interesting thing about it for me was that I discovered Affirmation right after I came out in LA.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:40:21] In LA. And it was in that mid-80s period. It was very active and a really vibrant group, and that became my lifeline because there I talk about the feeling of it as being bilingual. Right. There are people who spoke gay and people who spoke morbid. And I could, you know, learn in a setting where I could translate with other people who understood what the translation was. And that was hugely helpful to me. And that was my first dating pool, you know, people who'd had similar experiences and everything. And it was so my. I have great affection for Affirmation in that era of my life because it really helped me to figure out how to plot a course that would be congruent with my values. Things were important to me, and also to then open myself up to a broader experience.

John Dehlin [00:41:11] So that was helpful. You eventually became a board member of Affirmation for at least a time, right?

Tom Christofferson [00:41:17] Yep.

Tom Christofferson [00:41:17] Couple years.

John Dehlin [00:41:19] Did you run into, you know, gay post Mormons where their life was pretty traumatized by their experiences in the church?

Tom Christofferson [00:41:28] Yeah. And I would say in the crowd that I was with in the 80s was a little less. So it was, I think certainly people my age that I was meeting there were just like, okay, I couldn't figure out how to make this apply to my life or figure out how to bring the two together. So I'm not bitter, but I'm also not involved. I just kind of moved on and figured out what's going on. I think the bitterness came, at least from my experience with folks. I think the really bitter things came a little later. But maybe it also had to do with. If you'd done reparative therapy at byu. The bitterness probably came in some way

John Dehlin [00:42:07] for those folks you mentioned. Carolyn Pearson is an important influence on you. When I interviewed her for Mormon stories, she made the quote, and I remember this, she said, we throw them into the gutter and expect them not to get dirty. What do you think she meant by that? As it relates to, let's just say, the LGBT Mormon experience in the 80s. Was it relevant? Is that quote relevant?

Tom Christofferson [00:42:30] Well, I think certainly it is for some number of people where families literally said, okay, if you're not going to do the Church thing, then we have no desire to stay connected. And I would love to think that that was a minority. I think it was. But everyone is a catastrophe and a heartache. Right. And one is too many. But I certainly knew people whose families were estranged because they had come out. And especially living in la, you know, it was like they might have grown up in Utah or Idaho or Arizona. And part of being in LA was to have some distance from their families because there was so much trauma and pain, hurt there.

Tom Christofferson [00:43:10] Yeah.

Tom Christofferson [00:43:12] So

John Dehlin [00:43:15] tell us about how you ended up meeting the man that would become your partner.

Tom Christofferson [00:43:20] Yeah. So there was. I met a guy in LA and we had a relationship about five years.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] So you were kind of a one man, long term kind of guy. Is that fair to say or not?

Tom Christofferson [00:43:31] Pretty fair to say. And then we moved to New York together from LA and then broke up, and my career continued. I was in Europe for a couple years with the firm I was working with, and then joined a different firm in San Francisco. And that was where I met my partner of 19 years.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] It's hard to not say his name. So talk about really quickly why we don't use his name. And is that his wish or yours?

Tom Christofferson [00:44:00] I have really felt that I wanted to honor his privacy, that this is my story telling in my experience and my perception of my way, and that if he ever wants to tell it, then he should be able to tell his own story. So that's. I just felt like I wanted to give him. Allow him to have as much distance as he wants to have. And if he ever wants to engage, he will.

John Dehlin [00:44:22] Did he ever ask you not to use his name or when you talk about it?

Tom Christofferson [00:44:25] No.

John Dehlin [00:44:26] It's just what you prefer?

Tom Christofferson [00:44:27] Yeah.

Nineteen Years With a Same-Sex Partner

John Dehlin [00:44:27] Okay, so you were together 19 years. Can you talk about what your relationship is like to the extent that you're comfortable?

Tom Christofferson [00:44:38] Sure.

Tom Christofferson [00:44:38] Happy?

John Dehlin [00:44:39] Okay.

Tom Christofferson [00:44:41] You know, we had ups and downs, I think, as everyone does, but on the whole, it was a very happy experience. I'm hugely grateful to have had that learning in my life of how to be with somebody and at least try to love someone more than you love yourself and take care of someone to think of them first and, you know, all those lessons that you learn in a relationship like that.

John Dehlin [00:45:08] One of my early faux pas, as I tried to become more educated about the LGBT experience, was even mentioning the phrase the gay lifestyle. And I once had a co worker who I didn't know was gay, who, you know, who I said some awfully offensive things to, described to me what the gay lifestyle was for him.

Tom Christofferson [00:45:32] And his partner.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] And he's like, we wake up, we have breakfast, we go to work, we work all day, we come home, we eat, we do the dishes, maybe watch some TV and we go to bed. Can you describe what your lifestyle was with.

Tom Christofferson [00:45:48] So my partner was a hospital administrator. He was the executive director of the East Bay AIDS center in Berkeley at Alpha Bates Hospital, was a board member at the time of the Harm Reduction Coalition, which was around intravenous drug users and also, you know, sex. So it was, was a drug exchange, needle exchange program and condom distribution program. And it was.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] That's inspiring work.

Tom Christofferson [00:46:24] He's such a wonderful person and really was drawn to that sort of thing of how to be helpful to people. And then after we'd been together about a year, he really felt like in that ebac, he's pay aids our experience, he wanted to be able to be more impactful than running the program. He really wanted to be able to be a doctor and to help individuals in that way. So even though he had a master's in public health, he decided he wanted to go back and do post grad pre med. We were talking about that and I'd looked at where there were med schools in San Francisco and New York because I was being recruited to join a firm in New York and there were two med schools within two hours of us in San Francisco and 12 within two hours of new York. And I was like, okay, the job works for me. And it also, I think coincidentally would probably make it more likely that he could achieve his dream. So I went to Columbia, did the two year program there, post credit pre med, and then a year of taking the MCATs and applying. And it was a really nerve wracking time as to whether that would happen. He'd be able to have the opportunity to achieve that dream. But he was accepted. And then at age 42, started med school where? In Albany.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Albany. And did you put him through med school?

Tom Christofferson [00:47:54] Well, no, I think we did that together, but it's what we would do. Yes. We had an apartment in Albany that he would stay at during the week and then we'd be home in Westchester County, New York on the weekends. And that first semester was, I think, the hardest thing we ever did together because I had kind of reached a point in my career where I had a little more freedom and flexibility and was ready to enjoy it right at the same moment that he was trying to dig into school with kids who had been in it, they're 20 years his junior, and were continuing what they'd been doing. And so he had to learn how to learn all over again. It was so incredibly stressful for him. And my thought had been, well, at least when you're here on the weekend, we can enjoy life. It was like, no, he needed to study. It felt like every moment and felt such pressure because he just felt like he wasn't catching on, on fast enough. It was so hard. And what we kind of learned in the second semester of that was that if I was not traveling on business and didn't have clients in New York on a Friday of a week, then I would go up, take the train up to Albany on Thursday. We could have a late dinner together. I'd work from his apartment on Friday, then we could drive home. And that two hour drive home was really our most time for connection and it kind of saved us. But it's, you know, I think about that as just such an object lesson of if you're willing to work hard enough and really suffer, you know, that you probably can't make even the most unlikely dreams come true. But he worked like a dog. And the first two years of med school are the kind of classroom years and the second two are the clinical years where you're practicing in the hospital setting. And the first two years he was at a significant disadvantage with the other people he was going to school with. And the second two years he was the star because he'd worked in hospitals and knew how to relate and do all those things. So the second two years were a lot easier than the first two.

John Dehlin [00:49:59] What an incredible story of you guys working together and working through hard stuff. Was it a traditional marriage or relationship? And many ways, well, would a heterosexual couple go, that's kind of our life. It's just two guys. That's what I mean.

Tom Christofferson [00:50:16] Yeah, I think so. I remember a friend of mine saying, you know, but for the gay thing, you know, you're right smack on the, on the center point of normal. That's what I meant. And yeah, so yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [00:50:31] Did you consider adopting at all? We did.

Tom Christofferson [00:50:34] Our thought had been that if he didn't get accepted to med school, then we would adopt and he'd be the stay at home parent. We just felt like my job was kind of so demanding and my travel schedule was pretty intense, that it was neither possible nor would make sense for me to be the stay at home parent. Although I would have loved to. I would have been a very indulgent father, but. And my partner was much better able to be a more disciplined one. But the thought was that we would do that. And then when he was accepted, that kind of ended that idea.

John Dehlin [00:51:17] Name three things you loved most to do together, and then we'll move on.

Tom Christofferson [00:51:21] Okay. You know, one of the things that I've always, always thought about him is that he was the best version of himself at home. And I think for most of us, we're probably on our best behavior when we're outside in work or social settings or whatever it might be. But he was the best version of himself when we were together. And my favorite thing was that have time with just the two of us. We had a pretty active social life. We did a lot of traveling, but as long as we were together, that was the happiest time of my life.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] Wow.

Tom Christofferson [00:52:02] Is that three things? That's two.

John Dehlin [00:52:03] That's good. I'll take it.

Tom Christofferson [00:52:06] The other thing I would just say is that he had really dry sense of humor, and a lot of people, as they first came to know him, wouldn't really get his humor. And I love it. I love to laugh with him.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] So how many years into your relationship with him did the church start entering back in?

Tom Christofferson [00:52:24] 12.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] 12 years in. What happened? So this is around 2007. 2007. Okay.

Tom Christofferson [00:52:32] So, yeah, this was not exactly what he bargained for. Interestingly, his stepmother is Mormon, and he has a half sister who went on a mission and married the temple and has lots of kids and a really neat lady who's an author, interestingly enough. So it wasn't unfamiliar to him that someone was gay. Sorry, that was Mormon. And he knew my family, and so obviously got that there. But it just wasn't. In the early years of our relationship especially, just wasn't anything that I was particularly engaged with other than to be very respectful. Respectful of what mattered to my family, as I wanted them to be respectful of what mattered to me. But over time, I came to really want to have more of a spiritual component in my life. And we had gone to a number of different churches over time, and none of them really spoke to me. There are lots of great things about all of them, and especially that all of them we went to were. Were very accepting of gay members and parishioners and congregants. And so that made for an easy way to engage in a congregation, but it just didn't work for me.

Excommunication and Spiritual Experiences

John Dehlin [00:53:49] I don't love to interrupt, but I forgot to mention that you requested excommunication back after your marriage.

Tom Christofferson [00:53:57] I did forget to say that.

John Dehlin [00:53:58] No, I forgot to ask you about. So maybe you should just talk about that briefly. So People understand your church status prior to re engaging. So I'm sorry.

Tom Christofferson [00:54:07] No, I'm glad you did, because that's a pretty critical point. At the time that the marriage was ending and was being annulled, you know, I felt like the only way I could feel like I had integrity of my process of figuring out where to go from here was to ask to be excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] Still is a believer, correct? Yeah.

Tom Christofferson [00:54:27] Yeah. It was interesting in that I had waffled back and forth about whether I would actually attend the court. And in the end I did. I'm glad I did because it was a positive experience. But you in that court, they asked me what was my relationship with Jesus Christ, and I had an opportunity to talk about that. And I was grateful to be able to say that I felt this, quote, close to him at that point as I ever had, and that I felt like I'd had experiences relating to the Book of Mormon. So that was still something that mattered to me. But that, as I said, I think my dad had been on probably three different high councils at that point, and I wondered if he had sat through any council sessions like this and whether any of the. And their kids would, you know, that this is something that I felt like we probably needed to figure out better as a church, and that that was my goal, was to go figure out for myself what I needed to do. And I was going to not be living a life in keeping with church council at that point. President Kimball was the president of the church. And if you remember or know, in his early years as president of the church, it was almost like church courts were a factory. He had this feeling that there was a necessary disciplinary process for repentance. And so there was. When I asked to be excommunicated, all I had to say was that I was gay. I don't recall anyone asking if I'd had sex with anyone, but I hadn't. And that was always needed. If you say you're gay, well, then, okay, bye. And so that was, I think, a couple things I take out of that experience for myself. One is I wanted it in order to feel myself that I was not pretending to be Mormon when I wasn't Mormon. I don't know that anybody else needs to do exactly the same thing, but that was how I thought about it. And so that's what I did. But I think because it was my initiative and my desire, it wasn't a hard outcome or something I felt really bitter about because I'd asked them to

John Dehlin [00:56:37] do it and they did it Interestingly, in one of the other research papers we had, we measured quality of life by relationship to the church. And oddly, the LGBT Mormons that had been excommunicated reported the highest quality of life. I didn't expect that. Do you have a theory? I mean, I guess it can be an empowering move. Maybe it's severs. Any cognitive dissonance. Any theories on why excommunicated LGBT Mormons reported the highest quality of life?

Tom Christofferson [00:57:09] I think it does eliminate some dissonance or can. But I also found that when I went back to church and we'll get there in a minute. But as a non member of the church, I felt great freedom in being able to participate any way I wanted to.

John Dehlin [00:57:25] I love that part of the book.

Tom Christofferson [00:57:26] Book, right.

John Dehlin [00:57:27] We'll get there.

Tom Christofferson [00:57:28] But I said, I got to choose my own home teaching route. Right. I could do whatever. I could engage anyway. And they're like, what were they going to do? I was going to engage.

John Dehlin [00:57:36] And you're living authentically. You're not living a lie. Still, really quick, as someone who's been excommunicated, it's really hard to imagine that being a positive experience. But you're saying it was.

Tom Christofferson [00:57:51] But the difference is I initially it and I. And I hope that wasn't.

John Dehlin [00:57:56] No, no, it's your experience. No, I'm just saying I wanted to understand it, that's all. But it's because you initiated it then they were just lovely to you or.

Tom Christofferson [00:58:05] Well, you know, I don't think I. I mean, I would love to imagine that somebody sitting there took to heart the conversation, but I. I think in that area it just reinforced what they already believed, which was that if you were going to be gay, of course you couldn't be connected to the church. You wouldn't want to be. Right. Because you were gonna go live this evil lifestyle. Right.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] So it wasn't that they treated you in necessarily a lovely way.

Tom Christofferson [00:58:30] They were respectful, but it wasn't much more than that.

John Dehlin [00:58:33] But for you, it wasn't an awful traumatic experience, it was. What, liberating?

Tom Christofferson [00:58:38] Yeah, because it was, you know, they did what I asked them to do.

John Dehlin [00:58:42] And then the other thing that just really blows my mind is the idea that that wouldn't cause for you a faith crisis where you're just like, this church is messed up, it's defective. They've treated me terribly. I'm done. Forever. How did you avoid that?

Tom Christofferson [00:58:56] You know, I really think it was because I felt like I had a personal relationship with Christ and so that to me was independent. Of the church. And I was still happy to believe that it was the church of Jesus Christ. But I also felt like I could continue to live my life and try to maintain that connection as best I could, and because he understood the circumstances of my life and the desires of my heart and everything around it, that I was okay with him.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] And it seems like you were able to hold on to your relationship with Christ by not continuing, continuing to try and change yourself through Him. Was that an important piece?

Tom Christofferson [00:59:43] It is. And I think I figured that out during the course of that year of marriage that the reason this wasn't going to change was because it wasn't because I was evil and not doing what God wanted me to do. It was because God wasn't going to make the change. And therefore, to me, it was because he didn't need to.

John Dehlin [01:00:08] Over 40% of the respondents in our study reported some spiritual experience from God affirming their LGBT identity.

Tom Christofferson [01:00:18] And I think I had one very similar to many of those people, which is I had that experience of being known and being loved, being known completely for in every aspect of myself and being loved.

John Dehlin [01:00:36] That's wonderful. I agree. Not everybody gets that.

Tom Christofferson [01:00:41] I feel fortunate in many ways in my life.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] And that happened around this time or earlier?

Tom Christofferson [01:00:47] Yeah, it was during that year of being married. And it was interesting because it was such a horrible time in so many ways. But it was also. And it was, you know, I did some counseling at that time to just try to figure out what I could do. And I think that it was really helpful in being able to say, I can think about things differently. I can imagine being happy in a different way than I thought it was going to be. And it's one of the things that I've tried to say in the book and in conversations around it is, you know, I was a pretty miserable Mormon pretending not to be gay. I was a really happy gay person not being Mormon. And now I feel like I'm a happy gay person who is Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org thank you very much.

Finding a Path Back to the Church

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 846

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Okay, so let's now fast forward back or go back to you entering back into the church or starting to consider the idea in 2007.

Tom Christofferson [00:00:50] Yeah, so it had been a very gradual thing. It wasn't just kind of an all or, you know, all of a sudden, but, you know, in the early years after I left the church, when I would visit my parents, originally they were in Colorado and then they were in Utah, I would make sure I traveled on Sunday so I didn't have to go to church. And then over time I'd kind of travel on Monday because I started to enjoy going to church with them. When Todd was called, my oldest brother was called as a 70. Then when he would speak in conference, which is about every five years, I would try to make sure I was there. And when my partner and I were together, we would go together and try to be there in the tabernacle or conference center when he would speak. And, you know, and you know, the motabs were always a connecting point for me. So the hymns of the restoration were always a really heartfelt thing for me. And so there were things that over time, kind of had a pole. And so what I thought when my partner graduated from med school and was starting his internship and residency, we moved from Westchester, New York to New Canaan, Connecticut, to be closer to the hospital where he was doing his program. And I knew there was a Mormon church in New Canaan. And so the timing just all kind of worked. And I thought, well, I'll go to Sacrament, just see what I think. And I did that for several months, not every week, but I would go and just sneak in the back and come late, leave at the minute anyway. So I never had to talk to anyone. But in those times I felt something, it became meaningful to me. And then that brought me to a point where I felt, okay, if I'm going to continue this, then I want to be open. I wanted, I asked to leave the church because I wanted to be honest with myself. And if I'm going to be involved with it at all, I Want to be able to be honest as well. And so that was when I asked

John Dehlin [00:02:54] to speak to the local bishop, Bishop Larsen.

Tom Christofferson [00:02:58] Bishop Larsen.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] And man, right now, just mentioning his name, I've never met him. I'm getting, like, the hair standing up on, like, my arms and back. Like, I don't have hair on my back, but. But what an amazing experience.

Tom Christofferson [00:03:11] He's a man of God.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] So can you talk about that? I'm just trying to imagine an excommunicated gay man who's in a committed relationship showing up at church and then saying, hey, Bishop.

Tom Christofferson [00:03:26] The interesting thing, I felt like, again, here's another example where I feel so fortunate in my personal experience and recognize that everybody else doesn't necessarily have the same good fortune that I've had. But he was an investment banker. Bishop Larsen at Goldman Sachs had been there pretty much his whole career in mergers and acquisitions had been in Asia, a good portion of it been back in the US For a period. But a couple years before being called as bishop, which was about three months before I started going to church, he had been asked to take over HR for the investment bank in the US and that included the diversity groups, which included the LGBT group. And so he would say that he hadn't been terribly aware of or connected to gay colleagues in the firm. But when he had that assignment, he became very well connected. And I came to know over time, some of the LGBT leadership of Goldman Sachs who uniformly spoke highly of him and what a really great supporter he had been and how helpful. So in that sense, I felt like, even though I didn't know it, the person that I was going to go talk to and say, hey, am I welcome to come here? Had been prepared for that kind of a conversation. So what happened was I had been paying fast offerings for a while, and I just stuck a note in my little envelope, said, I'd like to have an appointment to speak with the bishop. So he called me and said, could you come over to my home tomorrow night? And I said, sure. And so I said to him, look, here's the scoop. My partner and I have been together for 12 years in a monogamous, committed relationship. I don't see that changing. But I've been attending your ward sort of surreptitiously and have felt things that were powerful and important to me. And I'd like to come, but I want to be able to do it as who I am, a gay man in a committed relationship who is not a member of the church. And in that sense, I'm not on a traditional path of repentance. I'm not coming to you saying, you know, want to change my life in that aspect. What I'm saying is, I would like to be able to worship with your congregation, and am I welcome? And his instant response was, absolutely. He said, we want to know you, and we want your partner to come. We'd like to know him, too. And he. We've had conversations over time after that, and I have asked him what he thought when he heard this little pronouncement. And he said, you know, my first thought was, who am I to put a block in front of someone who wants to be closer to Christ? You know, he's an amazing man, has been such a blessing in my life.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] We talk about bishop roulette or ecclesiastical roulette. You kind of wanted Bishop Lewis. And then I read about President Checketts who manages Madison Square Garden or the Knicks or something like that. Like, he. He started doing, like, monthly gospel study with you personally. What was that like?

Tom Christofferson [00:06:29] I mean, I've been going at that point. I'd been going for probably five or six years.

John Dehlin [00:06:32] Okay, okay.

Tom Christofferson [00:06:33] So we'd gotten to know each other a little bit, and he, Dave and Deb and my partner and I had gone to dinner. So we knew each other socially as well a little bit. When my oldest brother Todd, was assigned to our stake for a stake conference, then we had the whole family, all my brothers came out, and so we had some time with Dave and Deb and their family. Over time, we got to know each other better. What happened was Bishop Larsen accepted a position with Goldman here in Utah, so he was released as bishop. And then they moved. One time when President Chekitz and I were talking, I said to him, I sort of feel like I'm kind of treading water. Like, I feel like I'm not really progressing. What would you suggest I do to keep growing? And that's when he had said, well, why not you and I do a little gospel study together? Come over to my house on Saturday morning once a month, and we'll spend an hour or so and just talk about things. And so he said, what would you want to talk about? And I said, well, I guess the first thing I'd like to delve into is the atonement of Jesus Christ. I'd like to understand that better. And so I figured if we were going to have this conversation, I needed to do some study. So I spent a few weeks trying to assemble all the scriptures I could find and other things and wrote this, like, 18 page paper, because I thought that's what I was supposed to do. And that wasn't what he had expected. So. But that kind of. It became a crash course in kind of catching up on gospel doctrine and thought over the course of a year, year and a half for me of doing that and certainly made us closer together. And I think the experiences with both Bishop Larsen and President Checketts really allowed them to kind of know who I was and what was driving me. And, you know, I think they were willing to push the boundaries of what a non member of the church could do in terms of church activity because of that.

John Dehlin [00:08:48] Yeah. So you. I don't want to steal your thunder. What colleagues did you have? Well, I didn't have colleagues as a non member. That's why I said colleagues. Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:08:57] But interestingly, they suggested that I teach the high priest group a couple times as an excommunicated. As a non member of the same sex marriage. That's kind of scandalous.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] That's kind of scandalous almost in our orthodox minds.

Tom Christofferson [00:09:14] You know, I think again, I think twofold. One had been so long since I'd been excommunicated, it wasn't anything fresh and they'd known me by that point for a few years that I think they just sort of felt like I would approach it in a, you know, a sincere way.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] And you'd never been a high priest? No,

Tom Christofferson [00:09:35] I don't. No. I think they just assigned me there for my hair color.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] So other assignments that you had, some service assignments.

Tom Christofferson [00:09:42] So a couple of times our ward had an arrangement with a shelter, a homeless shelter in the neighboring community. And so I was able to, you know, plan some of those and do some of those over time. And we did a 4th of July event every year where we'd get together as a ward and go over to the fireworks in the community park. So they gave the opening prayer. I think they would. They tried to find things where, you know, I could do it as. Without a calling. I think the other thing was that when I started to go to Sunday school, you know, I had a conversation with the bishop and said, you know, when I was excommunicated, I was told I couldn't speak and couldn't pray. So, you know, what do I do in Sunday schools? So he just sat there and he said, look, if you have a. If you feel a comment that you feel is additive to the spirit of the class, give it. And I said, and if they ask you to pray, get up and pray. And so, you know, again, I think it Was because we'd come to know each other, and he felt some confidence in how I would approach it. But I also. I genuinely think it really reflected his love and desire that I could gain as much of the experience as I possibly could.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] Why do I have in my mind that you were involved in, like, piano or organ of the choir?

Tom Christofferson [00:11:14] Is that I sang in the choir.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] Sing in the choir.

Tom Christofferson [00:11:16] Okay. Which didn't really add to the choir. I enjoyed it.

John Dehlin [00:11:23] I love. I'm gonna have you read a little part of your book, because there's this part that just had me rolling about how the ward treated your partner. Maybe just where it starts. Mini ward right there.

Tom Christofferson [00:11:40] Many ward members knew. My partner, Bishop Larsen, once said that our meetings always started late when my partner joined me because so many members of the ward rushed over to greet him. Do you want to keep going?

John Dehlin [00:11:52] I mean, I'm just. That was remarkable. Like, it was almost like you were deeply loved and embraced by the ward.

Tom Christofferson [00:11:59] Yeah, I really felt that way. And I. And the thought that follows that, by the way, is that as I was writing that book, it struck me in a way it never had before.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] Wait, go ahead and read the sentences. Just the remainder of the paragraph.

Tom Christofferson [00:12:13] So for the first five years I attended, they might have correctly surmised that there were aspects of my life wherein I was not living all the commandments.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:12:22] I mean, as they came to know my partner, they could certainly have understood that we had a full relationship. And we did. And yet I never had a feeling that anyone there viewed me with anything other than love. And I also never felt that they required me to show them my repentance or required me to show them progress. They were simply happy that I would come. And in that sense, I just think I'm incredibly fortunate to have had that experience personally. But I think it's such a great example for what words can be for anybody who thinks they don't fit. Hey, there's no qualification. It might be. We talk about the qualifications that enter the temple, but I think there are only two qualifications as a chapel. One is, you have some desire to know Christ and to come closer. And two, you're willing to push open the door, and that's it. And anybody in that sense should be made to feel welcome and wanted and loved. If they'll make that effort to come in, whatever they believe, wherever they are, I think we can do so much better. And this was a ward that showed an example of what that would look like.

John Dehlin [00:13:33] And I'm trying to imagine. Thank you. And I'M trying to imagine, take 40,000 wards across the world, 40,000 same sex couples, how many would have that type of experience now? And we'll talk about that later, but even the possibility of it is sort of mind blowing to me. Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:13:54] I mean, my little Salt Lake City ward, the bishop is very concerned about some same sex couples that we have in the ward who don't attend. And he makes personal calls periodically to just be sure they know that we know they're there and want them and want to be connected and really want to know them, believe they would add something to the ward if they would come and has asked me to do the same.

John Dehlin [00:14:21] And yet it was only a couple years ago where couples that were, that had chosen to be same sex married were sort of being hunted down by bishops or stake presidents and kind of excommunicated. So it's complicated, right?

Tom Christofferson [00:14:35] It is.

John Dehlin [00:14:35] You agree that that's happened, right?

Tom Christofferson [00:14:36] Yeah. And I mean, I guess what I would say is, you know, I think there are more wards today that would be welcoming of a gay couple and a gay family. Right. With their kids than would have been last year or two years ago. And I hope next year there'll be more than there are today. I feel like we're on that trajectory and I hope we can find ways to make it pick up speed and really become a much more common experience.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] Yeah, we'll talk about that. So we're going back in time now, but Prop 8 played into your partner's thoughts about potentially becoming a member of the church and then we can go forward from there.

Navigating Prop 8 and the Question of Marriage

Tom Christofferson [00:15:15] But do you think he ever. I don't think he ever seriously thought about it being a member of the church, but he was willing at least to support me and the things that I was doing. And I think believed that my family genuinely loved him and supported us, accepted us. But when Prop 8 happened, he really came to the conclusion that Mormons generally, and even my family specifically, were just very well mannered people and were kind and gracious, but at heart didn't fully accept us as equal. And so the love was qualified. I didn't feel that way. And over time he really came not to feel that way about my parents, but it really hurt him deeply that I had a brother and some nieces and nephews in California, and he knew the least couple had voted in favor of Prop 8, which was against LGBT people. And that was deeply hurtful and really changed, I think, his feeling about my continued activity.

John Dehlin [00:16:21] How did you process Prop 8 and how did you survive?

Tom Christofferson [00:16:24] It kind of the same as in terms of your church affiliation survived the policy in November. Right. So it's the same. I was trying to short circuit that.

John Dehlin [00:16:36] We'll get there really quick.

Tom Christofferson [00:16:39] You know, it was for Prop 8 specifically. You know, my feeling has been, look, my personal experience is that the couples that I've known that have gotten married, the gay couples I've known that have gotten married, have felt that it really strengthened and united them and changed honestly the way they felt in some way about their own relationship. And several of them have said to me almost in wonderment, I thought it was kind of a ceremony, it was a wonderful thing to do, but I didn't really think that our relationship was any different before than it would be after. And have said there's something about that experience of being there with your family, with your community, and being able to publicly make that commitment that is profound and really does have an impact. And especially I think, for gay families with kids. I remember I have good friends in New York and they had been together, oh gosh, probably 15ish, maybe even 20 years, and had adopted over time, three kids. And my closer friend of the two would always say that they were the island of misfit toys because the kids they had were ones that were not desirable for adoption. They'd taken some really challenging circumstances. And their younger daughter two years ago now, three years ago, said to one of her dads, what I want for Christmas is for you to get married. And that was a powerful moment of what that means to a kid, let alone what it means to the partners. And so my personal experience has been that same sex marriage is either neutral or strongly positive. I really haven't had any experience of it being negative and I haven't had any experience of it being hurtful to anyone outside the relationship who was willing to approach it with an open mind and heart. On the other hand, I do believe in prophets, seers and revelators with ability to see what I can't. And so in that sense, I'm willing to say, look, here's my personal experience. I'm willing for you to tell me that there's something you see that I don't. And I'll live with the ambiguity or the dissonance until somehow that can be resolved in my mind or through revelation.

John Dehlin [00:19:10] Do you have a position of sort of whether you would support the legalization of it if it were not legal yet?

Tom Christofferson [00:19:17] I mean, my feeling is, as a taxpayer, I think the government should treat all taxpayers equally. In my view, this would be so much Easier if we were in Europe, because there's already a history of civil marriage as a very distinct thing from religious marriage. And if you want to be married, everybody has to be married by the community or the government. If additionally you personally would like to have a religious ceremony, then you may do that afterward. And I think if that had been our experience in the US this would have been so much less contentious. And so, I don't know, I think we could have gone through it in a way that says, look, government ought to be even handed to support all families and encourage all families to have stability and success. Right. And religions can set the standards that they feel appropriate, and those who want to participate can, and those who don't don't have to.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] So it sounds like politically you're sort of for same sex marriage, but maybe religiously you're willing to defer. Is that fair to say, or is that accurate?

Tom Christofferson [00:20:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:27] Okay. All right. So Prop 8 happens. You become more and more engaged in the church, and then, you know, at what point did your relationship with your partner start to become a question in your mind?

Tom Christofferson [00:20:50] You know, the relationship itself in my mind, never became a question. What became a question was what the relationship included or excluded. Right. And at a certain point, it became realistic to me that we could have an emotional connection that would continue forever, but that the physical relationship would not. And that was how we lived for a period. And especially as I determined I really wanted to be baptized, that was what we were doing.

John Dehlin [00:21:26] That must have been super hard. Was that super hard for him for you?

Tom Christofferson [00:21:30] The way it came about was in a really natural way, because after the 2008 crash, over a period of years following that, I was working for an investment bank and that every year we were just shedding more and more people. And I could sort of read the handwriting on the wall and assume that at some point my job was going to go away. And so we put our house up for sale and my partner had been working in a two person practice, family medicine practice, locally, decided he was going to go work in a community health center in New Haven. And just there was so much stress of everything that was happening that it was sort of a natural thing at

John Dehlin [00:22:16] that period that the relationship was fraying or just.

Tom Christofferson [00:22:20] It wasn't fraying, but the.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] You were growing apart or the physical

Tom Christofferson [00:22:23] part was just kind of not there. There was so much else. And that happens in lots of marriages, right?

John Dehlin [00:22:28] Or relationships.

Tom Christofferson [00:22:30] I assume it didn't. I mean, in many ways I felt like we were as close or closer than we'd ever been emotionally. But there was just so much tension of everything that was happening that that was not number one on the list. But in that period, you know, I came to, I had two real questions. When I seriously started to think of, well, actually let me go back even a little farther. My thought of going back to church was not that I was ever going to be a member, but that there were things that I could gain as a non member, attending and participating to the extent that I could, that would be valuable to me in my life. So that was the mental frame I brought into it. After I'd been going five years or so, I started thinking, well, maybe I could be a member. And there are things then that I could do more than I can do right now. So as I began that process, and that was really a two year process, there were two things that were foremost in my mind that I had to resolve. One was if this standard of chastity was going to be the thing, was that a commitment I could really make and live with. And number two was I really. I felt like I didn't fit in the church and could that be a happy experience for the rest of my life of not fitting? And so those were two things I really wrestled with pretty much for a couple years as I was kind of coming to a conclusion there and had experiences that really helped me to feel that there would be a path and how this could work, etc. And then it came to a point where I really did seriously wanted to advise. I talked to the then bishop and President Checketts and said, I think I want to do this. And President Checketts said, well, I'd like to talk to your partner. And so he called my partner and said, would you. I'd like to talk to you. And in a church setting, would you be willing to come into my office at church and talk to me? My partner said, yes. And so he went in and President Checkett said to him, look, here's what baptism means to Tom. Here's why it matters so much to him that he really wants to do this, but how do you feel? And my partner said, well, number one, he's been baptized once. I don't think anybody needs to be baptized more than once. Number two, and this is one of the things I've always loved about him, is he's just honest. I don't get why a bunch of white men get to decide whether he's good enough to be in your church. And number three, I don't understand why your church would Want to do things that would have the effect of pulling us apart instead of helping us, our little family, be together.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] Those are good questions.

Tom Christofferson [00:25:11] Those are good questions. And so President Checkett said to me after I said, this is not the time for you to be baptized. And he said, and I don't want to set any date even to talk about it again. Wow, you two really should talk about this. If the circumstances changes where it's the right answer, then you'll come to me. And so for the. For pretty much a year, we would talk about it. And there came a point where my partner said to me, look, you really need to do what's going to be the best for you, and I'm going to have to figure out what that means for me. And I don't know. And so my hope was that it could still be a happy experience for him for us to be together and to have the emotional connection. We had to be, you know, financially connected, emotionally connected, physically in the same house connected, and yet not to have a sexual relationship.

John Dehlin [00:26:06] You weren't trying to get out of the relationship?

Tom Christofferson [00:26:07] No. My hope was that somehow this could all work, which may be another aspect of magical thinking, but that was my hope. The reason I thought that could be is because I felt like we were so connected. Right. And that that was incredibly valuable to me. And I thought to him. And so we stayed together for six months after I was baptized. But at that point, then he just said, you know, this isn't happiness for me and I need to figure out what it means. And he said, so by that point, we'd sold the house, my job indeed had gone away. So all these things happened right in that six month period where we were going to be moving. And he said, I think I want to be able to be on my own for a period and figure this out. And so I rented a place out in Rancho Mirage, California, and a condo here in Salt Lake and said, look, let me go establish the western benchmark here, our location for the future. And then I flew back every month for a few months, so we had some time together. And after we'd done that for a few months, then he said, look, it's making it worse. I want a year where we don't. Where I don't see you and we don't talk. I'm fine that we write letters or email or whatever, but I just want to be able to step away and produce that. And so that's kind of. We never really. We do still send notes. I haven't seen him since we don't talk by phone. But he has since found someone that he's now building his life with. And I really do pray and hope that is an answer to prayers that this is the experience of happiness for him because he was willing to, frankly, give up some things that were positive in his life so that I could do what I thought was best. And I want exactly the same for him. I want this to be the very best relationship of his life.

Choosing the Church and Ending the Relationship

John Dehlin [00:28:06] I think there are some people who incorrectly want to say maybe one of two things. One is that you sort of, and this is gonna sound harsh, you know, callously dumped him, you wanted out and you just had an excuse. Yeah, maybe. Maybe address that if you want. Or, I mean, it's mean stuff, but, you know, people might say that, right?

Tom Christofferson [00:28:30] Yeah, I've read a few comments. You know, on one hand, I would say, look, if someone's unwilling to read the book or talk to me firsthand or listen to something, there's not much I can do to change the perception they've got. If they've decided without all those things, they know the story, there's not much I can do about it. But I found that most people, if they're willing to listen or engage in some fashion, they don't have to agree with me. I'm not out saying to anyone, this is the path you should follow. All I'm saying is I hope there is some value in the experience. My family and I had my word and I had that can be useful to other people. And if so, great. And I found that most people are willing to listen under that circumstance. Again, it doesn't necessarily change their mind about what's most important to them or how they want to live their lives. But I think they can at least be respectful, that I honor their choices and they're willing to honor mine.

John Dehlin [00:29:33] A second group of people want to say, kind of paint this as a real tragedy. In fact, Seth asked, do you feel cheated from enjoying the love and companionship of having someone to share your life with because of a church policy? And he wrote, man made church policy. But that shouldn't. He shouldn't project that onto you because I'm guessing you don't necessarily feel it's a man made policy, but so people are basically concerned about you. Are you, you know, was this a big sacrifice for you? Is this a tragic story? Are you okay?

Tom Christofferson [00:30:09] You know, my hope had always been that I wasn't making an either or choice. I really thought that there was a way to do both. And my partner was my absolute best friend, the love of my life. And I am of course really saddened that that can't continue. But you know, that's. I have followed the path where I felt like I was being led and that's the. That was. It turned out to be the price, even though I was hopeful it would not be. But I. But I think because I've been given by him the freedom to do that, then I owe him my prayers and support in every other way of anything that he is going to be feels will be the path of happiness for him. In that sense, Yeah, I mean, I'm really sad that what I had hoped could happen didn't. But I'm grateful for the the path that I've been able to have, both the experience that we had together and the experience I have now. And especially grateful that it seems that he's in a happy place now as well.

John Dehlin [00:31:27] Several people asked, when you look back on that relationship, do you think of it? Some people ask, do you think of it as sinful? And then other asked, if you think of it as sacred, the relationship you had with him, do either fit for you?

Tom Christofferson [00:31:44] Well, I certainly prefer sacred.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] Do you feel it was sacred?

Tom Christofferson [00:31:51] I feel like what I learned through that experience was absolutely sacred. And I feel that my desire to try and think first of him and his desire to try and think first of me is a sacred experience to have. I love the Givens new book, the Christ who Heals and the whole conception there of our lives. The experiences of our lives are how we learn. And some of the ways we learn are painful and exact to cost and some less so. But it's all learning. And so I'm really grateful for the learning I've had that's made me who I am. So I'm trying to again follow where I'm led and to do the things that I want to do today requires me to live according to the current understanding we have of the law of chastity.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:33:00] I pray that there's more to learn in the 9th article of faith that God will yet reveal many great and important things. I pray that my heart is ready for whatever else he would say, that others will join me in that prayer, that we'll all be seeking for the Lord to tutor us in an area where we know so little.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] So it sounds like you don't like to think of that relationship as sinful, but instead you like to think of it as. As sacred and as a learning experience. Yes. Am I putting words in your mouth when I say that.

Tom Christofferson [00:33:29] Yeah. No, I mean, that is. Again, I feel like I follow a path of repentance that's constant and that I fall short in so many ways. But those ways of falling short are in themselves learning experiences, and so they're valuable. And I. And I really feel like I have come to conceive of a savior and heavenly parents who are delighted in anything that brings us closer to them and our desires to become as they are, and a lot more focused on that welcoming, that embrace, that delight than they are in keeping score of the mistakes you make to get there or the problems that you encounter. And in my case, all the things that I should do that I don't do on a daily basis.

John Dehlin [00:34:32] Yeah, that's one of the reasons why I made that plug about theology, because both what you said about the givens, but also what you write in here, in this book, it's not the Mormonism I grew up with. You know, it's like, this is sin and this is evil, and it's next to murder and stay away. And I don't think that's what you're sort of embracing in the gospel.

Tom Christofferson [00:34:55] I mean, it's. You know, I would say we've already talked about it a bit of, you know, if there is a disciplinary process involved in a repentance process, to me, the most helpful way that that can happen is because it's the desire of the individual to participate in a process and that there are almost ordinances, if that's for lack of a better word, but in a sense of, like, rituals that can be milestones to help someone feel that they're owning up and being honest and moving forward and whatever. To me, that can be a really healthy experience and a positive one, or it can be an incredibly detrimental one and one that pulls people away, in my view, from Christ. I would hope that we always approach whatever we consider that a unique repentance process for an individual in ways that are driven by that person's desire and not by something that, to me feels more punitive or more imposed from the outside.

John Dehlin [00:36:13] I love that version of the gospel. You've mentioned this in other podcasts, but is it safe to say that this decision you've made means a life of no longer dating and basically a life of celibacy? Is that what it means for you?

Tom Christofferson [00:36:30] That's all I can see right now. I mean, I hope I've said it in other contexts. I hope that there will be more understanding and knowledge to be had and in that knowledge, that there might be more paths than I currently see from the church.

John Dehlin [00:36:51] Okay, we'll come back to that then. I love that answer. So people are wanting to know if you're happier now than before.

Tom Christofferson [00:37:04] I would say I felt like I was happy before, and I'm happy now. I would say the difference is I feel more strongly connected to the Spirit or in my personal relationship with Christ than I did before because that's what I'm focused on. And so I have great gratitude for that aspect of my life at this moment in time.

John Dehlin [00:37:33] So at this moment, a very connected, deep connection with the church for you outweighs the joy or happiness that you were receiving from a committed partnership, is that not.

Tom Christofferson [00:37:50] Yeah, I mean, in the sense that I still had hoped that there was a way to do both. Right. And. And at least in my mind, at least theoretically, I think there is a way to do both, but that's not my current experience. And so the richness of my current experience then is the spiritual aspect.

John Dehlin [00:38:12] Sounds like you might be holding out for some type of change that would allow you to not have to choose between having a partner who you can love in every way and being in the church.

Tom Christofferson [00:38:25] I don't feel like I'm holding out for it. I feel like I'm doing what I have to do now.

John Dehlin [00:38:30] Sorry, but that would be the ideal thing for you.

Tom Christofferson [00:38:33] Yeah. I would love for people to be able to have both experiences, whatever that means. And in my mind, I can see that happening with no change of doctrine, and I can see it happening with a change, a significant change of doctrine, which is that that congregations would be so welcoming of anyone who wants to worship with us, regardless of their standing or membership in the church. In other words, that someone could have a nearly full experience within the church and still have a relationship, there's a price to pay, which is you probably don't have callings and you're not going to the temple, but you can have the other aspects or that there is greater light, knowledge to be had and the Savior can teach us more. That would allow more choices than we currently see, and doctrine would change because of that added knowledge. So one of those, to me is a certainty, and the other is a prayer. So my time now is really focused on what can we do about the certainty? And I hope the book is, at least for some people, a way to open minds and hearts and arms so that more and more congregations are welcoming.

John Dehlin [00:39:49] So I guess if you're will, if you were able to find a partner who was willing to, let's just say, obey the Law of Chastity, but was willing to be your partner and you guys could attend church together. There could be a partner in your future, theoretically, even as the current policy now stands.

Tom Christofferson [00:40:05] I think so.

John Dehlin [00:40:05] I hadn't even thought of that.

Tom Christofferson [00:40:07] I mean, there are. I'd have to tell you that there are church leaders, and I'm not talking about in the 12. I'm talking about stake presidents that I've talked to who have felt that they're. I know two couples as an example, where they live together in the same residence, consider themselves romantically engaged and committed, and hold temple recommends. And I know other state presidents who think that's completely antithetical to their understanding where we are. So I'm telling you, my personal view is I think that's. I think you can lube the spirit of the Law of Chastity and the letter of the law of chastity and still have an emotional connection with someone.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] You're blowing my mind, Tom Kristofferson. Well, this is. That's hard to do.

Tom Christofferson [00:40:55] But see, this is why no one's called me to any lofty position and no one's voted for me for anything. I'm a gospel doctor teacher. That's the extent of it.

John Dehlin [00:41:05] Really quick. In addition to my findings about mixed orientation marriages, the research that I did with Bill Bradshaw and Utah State University found that the single worst decision that an LGBT Mormon could make was to choose celibacy. And that surprised me. I wasn't looking for that finding, but it was the single biggest impactor on quality of life. Again, the most horrible, sort of like quality of life ratings lower than lupus sort of thing. Can you relate to, you know, that idea that actually celibacy is not something that people should consider lightly, that it's that it actually can be even worse than whatever your experiences were in a mixed orientation of marriage? I'm not saying that's gonna be that way for everyone, but can you relate to the research that seems to suggest that it can be maybe a very perilous decision?

Tom Christofferson [00:42:01] What I would say is, look, I'm not out here being a salesperson for solace. All I'm trying to do is share.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] No. But people, for those who are considering it, let's say there's a 22 year old that's like, well, God didn't fix me on my mission, so I'm just gonna be celibate for 80 years.

Tom Christofferson [00:42:17] Yeah. And then at age 32, the world looks different. But, you know, what I would say is, from my experience, it's A qualitatively different circumstance if you feel that you are choosing to be solvent than if you feel that it's being imposed on you. Maybe it's the wrong example, but I do draw a parallel with a priest who feels a calling to live that life, or a nun. And the same in other, not just Catholic, but also Buddhist. My sense is that if that's an internally directed course, there can be happiness and fulfillment. If it's an extrinsically directed course, I think that's going to be extremely painful and challenging and probably unsuccessful.

John Dehlin [00:43:21] There's a point in the book where you say that there's some who don't look at celibacy or mixed orientation marriages as legitimate. And when I read that, I worried, oh my gosh, Obi's not talking about me because I don't feel that way. But I also really strongly feel that how we talk about this is important. And everything you say is fine, which is it needs to be internally driven and your own choice. And my point over the past five years has been, but people need to know the odds. They need to know the research. Just like with cigarettes and tobacco cancer, there's warnings, there's labels. So the risk of talking about it as delicately as you do versus how candidly I do is that people don't get the warning, they don't get the risk and the odds. And so I'm a little, you know, that's, I tend to say we need to go a little bit more than what you're saying. That's sort of like everyone needs to choose their own path and be intrinsically, but like, hey, be careful, this can end disastrously. And for many people, if not the majority, it does. So be aware.

Tom Christofferson [00:44:35] The point I was actually trying to make in the book was that there are people in mixed orientation marriages who look at the celibate people and say, your choice is invalid. And people in same sex marriages who look at the mixed orientation marriage and celibate people and say, your choice is invalid. And people who are celibate who look at the other two would say, your choice is invalid. And all I'm trying to say is, look, I don't think any of those choices are invalid if they're made in the right way. And I include faith in that. Right. I mean, it's not, I think that, that it's, you know, you're trying to be, I was certainly trying to be spiritually led. I think others who are making the decision are doing the same thing. And so in your process of trying to be spiritually led. I think using all the best information available to you is absolutely powerful in that. Right. I mean, in the same way, you know, who was it, Brigham Young, who said, the man who, you know, you got, the man who's sick and the one who prays to be healed and, and sits there and waits versus the man who prays to be healed and then goes and finds the doctor. I think the Lord's going to look more favorably on the one who goes and finds the doctor. Right. I think it's the same thing. We're meant to use our minds and to do the best we can with all the information available to us and to use our faith to come up with what's going to be the best answer in our lives and to move forward.

John Dehlin [00:45:49] And just to end this one point, I guess I've been. Maybe it's just selfish, but I've been a little bit disappointed that, let's just say, people at Northstar or whatever, right, when they advocate or talk about these sorts of things, they seem to not want to bring the research in if the research doesn't support the direction that they're kind of hoping people go. And I would love to see both, and that it's like if you feel driven to this and it really feels right to do it, and here are the statistics so that you know the risk. And I. I felt almost no interest in faithful Mormons about learning about or knowing and especially talking about the research. And I can just tell you the research we did. Bill Bradshaw is a former mission president, former stake presidency member, my advisor at Utah State University, non Mormon, had no duck in the fight whatever. And I just wanted the truth. And so it's been hurtful to not see people willing to be open about those statistics and instead to try and downplay them or dismiss them. Do you have any thoughts on that? I don't mean to bring myself in, but I think it's important.

Tom Christofferson [00:47:02] No, but I think it's important in a broader sense even than that which

John Dehlin [00:47:05] is

Tom Christofferson [00:47:09] a dear friend of mine who's in her faith journey talks about feeling that she was sort of told, don't look at these sources of information, don't go to the Internet, because you'll find all this devil stuff. And in my view, I think we want to be trying to expose ourselves to the best thinking and the best knowledge across the board, and to believe that we can still reconcile our faith with knowledge. To me, the worst proposition is stupid faith. If that's not a too pejorative way to Say it. But just the notion that somehow that my faith is exclusive of any knowledge, I want to avoid learning or seeing what else is out there, because that, to me, says I don't trust that my faith is real.

John Dehlin [00:48:05] Got it. Okay. I appreciate that. Thanks for your patience with that. Okay, so let's now talk. Okay, let's talk about the November policy. You've talked about it before in the book. You wrote that at first you didn't believe that it was real. Why did you not believe that it was real?

Tom Christofferson [00:48:26] Yeah, because there had been rumors about various things coming up, and none of them had proven to be real. And I thought this was, with all due regard, that you're the one who brought it out there, but I thought this wasn't real either. So I was in California on business, and, as I say in the book, was in a meeting, and I finally had to sit on my phone because it was vibrating so much. It was really getting annoying on the table. So as soon as I got out of the meeting, I was being driven back to the airport and started looking at the messages, and they were all about this. So I immediately texted my brother and said, you know, people are saying this. Could this possibly be true? He came back and said, yes. I was like, what? I still. Even then, I just had such a hard time grasping it because it just didn't feel like anything I had thought the church was considering and didn't really feel like something that I thought would comport with our understanding. And the comment's been made of, well, it's the standard we've had around polygamy or kids in polygamous marriages. And I'm like, well, yeah, but who knew that? Like, I had never heard of that before, and now that I know it, I'm not comfortable with that one either. Like, I don't know, but it was. It's been a great. It continues to be a hard thing for me to reconcile.

The November Policy and a Family Conversation

John Dehlin [00:49:51] You have a very touching part of your book where you. Where you have a conversation with Elder Kristofferson about the policy. Do you mind sharing that? Because I think it's pretty touching.

Tom Christofferson [00:50:05] I mean, I think the one you're talking about is. I was. The next night, I was at the symphony and got a message and at the interval went out and Todd called him, and he said, I've just recorded an interview because we thought we had to have more. Something more for people to hear about this policy that he said will satisfy no one. But he said, so if you feel you need to distance yourself from me, because of this I will certainly understand. And I think it was a little light. I think there was a little levity in it. But at heart, I think he was being very sincere. And I was sincere when I answered back. You've never distanced yourself from me. It can't have been a treat to have a gay brother who doesn't shut up among your brethren in the 12. So, of course I'm not going to distance myself from you.

John Dehlin [00:51:04] That's beautiful. And was it hard for you that he was apparently chosen or volunteered to be the spokesperson for the policy?

Tom Christofferson [00:51:13] Yes, I am a loyal little brother. Makes me mad that he had to be the one to be friends there.

John Dehlin [00:51:22] Yeah, I imagine that was super hard.

Tom Christofferson [00:51:27] Well, it certainly was for me.

John Dehlin [00:51:28] Yeah. Okay. So are you comfortable saying your position on the policy, like, for it, against it?

Tom Christofferson [00:51:37] Well, as I did in the book, which is essentially that I. That having people that I love being labeled apostates and their children being,

John Dehlin [00:51:52] I

Tom Christofferson [00:51:52] think, made to feel different within a congregation is very hard for me. It's heartbreaking. And I don't feel closer to Christ when I conceive that. And I'm willing to believe that prophets, seers and revelators can see something I don't. So I live with that, of trying to figure it out. And I don't know that I'm any closer to figuring it out now than I was then. So I keep praying that either I'll get some new understanding or that others will.

John Dehlin [00:52:32] Something I haven't maybe heard you mention as a possibility is just that sometimes the brethren make mistakes. Is that within your theology?

Tom Christofferson [00:52:45] Can I phrase it a little differently, please. Which is. My experience with revelation is of having at times an understanding without the words that go along with it. And trying to record it or trying to put it into words never captures wholly what I've understood. In some sense, it doesn't come with. To me, it doesn't come with the language to describe it. I don't generally hear a voice that dictates to me. And I don't believe the Savior gives dictation at the church administration building every Monday at 8 o'. Clock. You know, I believe in my experience of revelation, that we are all absorbing as best we can through our experiences and understanding, but it is inherently limited and we do the best we can with it. And I believe that leaders of the church are honest and diligent and doing the very best they can. And I think revelation becomes iterative in the sense that we learn from, learn as we go, and potentially we Even gain greater clarity or understanding as we have more experience and go forward. That's my feeling of it. And in that sense, I think, yeah, that we can continue to learn and grow because the Lord can tell us more and because we can have a greater understanding of what he means in the Book of Mormon when he says that all men are equal, all people are created equal.

John Dehlin [00:54:21] So it sounds like what you're saying is the Lord can provide a revelation even to a. A church leader, but maybe as they write it down, it doesn't fully reflect the revelation that was given. And so sometimes as over time leaders can develop a better understanding of what was communicated and then changes happen to just better reflect that better understanding.

Tom Christofferson [00:54:51] I would give it an example. There were times when Joseph Smith invited others to help him edit or rewrite revelations that are now in the Doctrine and Covenants. My sense of that is that trying to pool our understanding, which in the same way councils of the Church do now, as we try to pool what we've connected and received and observed and try to put that together into a understanding, our language is enriched and somehow that can be better with multiple than simply me trying to do it on my own. So I think that's part of, to me, that's part of the process of how this works. But again, I feel like the Lord can give us more whenever he wants to and we're ready to act on it. And that also we can come to better understand what he's already told us. And that, I would say relates to what Elder McConkie said at BYU after the revelation on blacks in the priesthood, where he said, we had never supposed that the Lord meant what he said when he said, all are alike unto me, that this conception of what that meant was broader than we understood. I think. I believe that it is still broader than we understand.

John Dehlin [00:56:12] Well, what is it you don't like about the word mistake whenever it comes to revelation?

Tom Christofferson [00:56:18] I guess because it just seems like a value judgment. I don't know. It seems. I don't believe anybody's intending to make a mistake or anybody's trying to do something hurtful because it comports with something else. But I.

John Dehlin [00:56:35] Is part of it just our covenants not to criticize our leaders? Is that part of it?

Tom Christofferson [00:56:40] No, to me it's just that I. I guess I have a feeling for the amount of effort and work that goes into those callings. And so sure, they're human. I absolutely believe that and so do they. But I don't want to be dismissive of how hard they're trying and how, frankly, how righteous I think their desires are.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] So it's kind of disrespectful maybe.

Tom Christofferson [00:57:10] I think it's just too simplistic and.

John Dehlin [00:57:12] Simplistic. It's simplistic and maybe not fully respectful. Is that fair?

Tom Christofferson [00:57:17] Fair.

John Dehlin [00:57:20] Fascinating. Okay,

Tom Christofferson [00:57:24] so is anyone still watching?

John Dehlin [00:57:27] Oh, my gosh. More than ever. More than ever. Yeah. No. This is brilliant.

Tom Christofferson [00:57:32] This is.

John Dehlin [00:57:33] This is helping more people than you know. Yeah. A lot of people have watched your podcast and listened, but there will be tens of thousands of people that will hear this and will read this that would not have maybe done it otherwise if you hadn't done this interview. I hope you can believe me on that. Otherwise I wouldn't have done the interview. Okay. So why did you write the book? The book is that we maybe won A Gay Mormon's Perspective on Faith and Family. What was your motivation in writing it?

Writing the Book and Its Purpose

Tom Christofferson [00:58:04] I really felt like my family's story, in particular my parents story and the experience of the ward could be valuable to having a better conversation in the church and in families than we've had thus far. And it's not that I think this is a prescription, like, here's the right way to do it. It's just here's an example of how one family has gone down this path together and what we've learned together. And then here's an example of awards experience and how can that enrich someone else's family experience or ward experience or desire to try and approach things? And so my hope is, just like nobody's elected me their spokesman, I have no desire to be the poster boy for anything other than someone who's trying to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. And all I can say is I'm hopeful that what my parents did can illuminate, perhaps for some other parents, a range of ways that they might approach their family circumstance. And that what my church leaders did could illuminate ideas in other church leaders of how they might approach the needs of their wards and Stikes.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] Love it. One of the people who wrote in asked a question. People sometimes want to be conspiratorial or whatever. Nathan wrote. How much money are you making off the book?

Tom Christofferson [00:59:30] Well, I calculated that a bestseller, a deseret book, would probably buy you an 8 year old Toyota Corolla. So, yeah, not a lot.

John Dehlin [00:59:43] Okay.

Tom Christofferson [00:59:44] And my hope would be to donate that anyway.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] Okay, so you're. For you, those who want to say there's a money motive here, what would you say?

Tom Christofferson [00:59:54] It would not be much of a

John Dehlin [00:59:55] motivator the time that you probably put into it, you could have made done much better.

Tom Christofferson [01:00:01] Yeah, it's just, I mean, the reason that I wanted to write it, the reason I was hopeful that Deseret Book would take it, is because there was an audience that I felt hadn't heard this perspective. And the only way they were going to hear it, honestly, was if Deseret Book published it. And so that, you know, that's. If Deseret Book had said to me, we'll do it, but we won't pay you a penny, I would have said, great,

John Dehlin [01:00:27] Love it. And you may donate proceeds to a charity or something.

Tom Christofferson [01:00:32] I'm on a board that I would like to help encircle.

John Dehlin [01:00:35] Yep, that's good stuff. Hi, Stephanie and Barb. Okay, this is the one question that I've been wanting to ask you most of all, and I think it's probably the toughest. And I'm actually gonna use Cody's question. So Cody wrote this question, but it was the one I wanted to ask. But I'm reading Cody's, so you softened

Tom Christofferson [01:01:01] me up for two hours here just

John Dehlin [01:01:02] hearing no, I. I don't think this is a gotcha question. I think you're fully prepared to answer this question, but I think it's probably the biggest concern people have with the book. And you've already talked about you don't want to be a poster boy and you're not trying to set the example. That's totally. I love that you're doing that. Everybody loves that you're doing that. Cody writes, you state often that embracing full activity in the church is the path that you have felt led to follow. Now that you have published a book about this journey and through Deseret Book, which de facto to many members might as well be from the LDS Church itself, do you realize that this book will definitely have been something that my parents would have given me as a teen coming out as an example for me to follow and the resulting feelings of hopelessness I would have experienced. Can you imagine the resulting dilemma for many other LGBT Mormon youth as well?

Tom Christofferson [01:02:01] So let me approach that from two directions. One is, if you read the book, I hope you would find in there a whole lot of times where I say I'm supportive of whatever path you feel led to go through. And when I talk to parents about being there joyfully if your child marries a same sex partner. So I think if you read the book, you come away with the fact that there's room for everybody, their choices. I'm not saying this is the choice for everybody.

John Dehlin [01:02:27] And I've read it, and I agree. You say that many times. Yeah.

Tom Christofferson [01:02:30] The other thing I would say is I really. My feeling about this has been that I hope people have spiritual experiences, that they can mature spiritually, engage in that way as they are coming upon significant decisions to make. So there's my bias that I think that's a good thing, to be able to have some spiritual background and grounding, to be able to approach significant decisions in your life.

John Dehlin [01:03:10] That all makes really good sense. And my sense is there's going to be a lot of parents that don't read the book, and they just go, oh, wait, Elder Kristofferson's brother, he's now celibate, and he's in the church. He's making it work. Here. Here's the book. I haven't read it, but here it is. Go do it.

Tom Christofferson [01:03:31] That's been my big worry all along, is that somehow that someone would get the impression of, well, he did it, so can you. And it's just so not what I'm saying there that I. If somebody's unwilling to read or listen, I don't know how you can change their view, except in every time I talk about it, to say, look, I really am grateful for the people who honor my choices and I honor theirs. I'm doing the best I can, and I think everybody else is, too. And so whether that path is in the church or out of it, I think you're doing the best you can. And so I just want to be able to say, look, here's. These are experiences that have been meaningful to me. Here's kind of where my journey's led me. But the real point of the book is this is an experience a family had. This is an experience a ward had. And can that make for a better conversation? And I don't want anybody to ever get the message somehow that if they're not doing precisely what I'm doing, then they're wrong, because I don't believe that.

John Dehlin [01:04:43] So if that young LGBT Mormon kid has the parent that gives them the book and tries to sort of use you as a club, what do you want to say to that parent?

Tom Christofferson [01:04:55] Say to the kid, read the book, outline all the passages, and then give it back to your parents and say, look, this is what he said. Did you read it?

John Dehlin [01:05:06] Bingo. All right, we covered it. See, that wasn't so hard. Was that so hard? Okay, what is your message to an LGBT Mormon youth or young adult? What do you want them to get from this book?

Tom Christofferson [01:05:20] I love you and your life can be a happy, full and complete one. And I encourage you to explore all aspects of you are and including yourself as a spiritual being and find that happiness.

John Dehlin [01:05:39] And if they say I'm doing that, but it leads me out of the church, I can't. I don't have the word that you have. I don't have the brother that you have. I don't have the patience or the whatever that you have, personality, disposition or the testimony that I don't think you chose. It must be a gift. At the end of the day, if they say to you this means I leave, what would you say to them?

Tom Christofferson [01:06:05] I understand that. And that doesn't stop me from continuing to pray that your word will get better and your family will get better and that you will have the opportunity to feel a personal connection to Jesus Christ that I feel. But I understand why you would make the choice you're making.

Counsel for LGBT Latter-day Saints and Families

John Dehlin [01:06:24] Do you see the choice to leave the. I think I know your answer, but do you see the choice to leave the church and enter into a same sex committed marriage and to live out a life with a husband and adopting kids and all that as an inferior or a sinful choice?

Tom Christofferson [01:06:44] I feel like if you're doing the best you can to follow where you're being led and, and this is the healthiest, happiest outcome you can imagine, then you're doing the right thing. What I would say is it's a loss to the church. It's a loss to my church because I want you to be there. I want you to add what you can add. And I want us to learn from you and all of us to learn together,

John Dehlin [01:07:10] but not inferior. Or sometimes the best you can can maybe be heard by some as suboptimal as inferior. Do you mean it that way? Do you think of it that way?

Tom Christofferson [01:07:22] No, no, no. What is better than the best you can?

John Dehlin [01:07:24] I don't know, the One true gospel way, right? The heteronormative or celibate Mormon faithful experience, some would say great, but if you

Tom Christofferson [01:07:35] can't, what's the point of saying that's the best?

John Dehlin [01:07:38] What if you could, but you don't want to?

Tom Christofferson [01:07:41] Well, and I think that's, that's the personal element of it, is are we honest with ourselves? Right? Do we really know ourselves and are we being truthful with ourselves about what's driving us and how we're getting where we're getting? And that's to me, that's the healthiest way to live. I don't think it's healthy to lie to myself about what I'm doing and why. So I think if you're. Again, if you're doing everything that you feel you can do to come up with the best decision you can make at that point in your life, great.

John Dehlin [01:08:14] And you. And you consider a same sex, committed marriage or relationship to be legitimate and potentially a very healthy path for someone to choose.

Tom Christofferson [01:08:26] I have known a lot of friends for whom that is a very healthy path.

John Dehlin [01:08:30] Okay, what is your message? Oh, if in your theology, if a gay Mormon leaves the church, gets married, according to Tom. Yeah, there we go.

Tom Christofferson [01:08:44] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:08:44] No, I mean, I think in 2017, ask the Givens. We're creating theology. You know, we're trying to help the church get a better understanding. I think a gay Mormon leaves the church, marries a man, raises kids, lives a happy, fulfilling, righteous life, dies. In your theology, are they necessarily terrestrial or terrestrial bound? Or do you see a theology where they could enjoy exaltation just like a faithful, endowed temple married Mormon?

Tom Christofferson [01:09:21] I think only the one perfect judge is the one who decides that. And for him, our desires and all the circumstances of our lives, chemistry, biology, epigenetics, all of that is there, as well as our actions. And in his perfect judgment, it's going to be whatever it's going to be. I also happen to believe in an expansive view of eternal progression in the way that Terahol and Fiona lay out

John Dehlin [01:09:49] in the new book, so potentially even across kingdoms.

Tom Christofferson [01:09:55] I believe that because I believe the power of Christ's atonement is not bounded by time or place. So I believe it is so powerful that we have opportunities to take advantage of it forever.

John Dehlin [01:10:09] If somebody were to call that an unorthodox piece of theology, what would you say? Is it unorthodox or is it.

Tom Christofferson [01:10:16] I don't know. I mean, I. I think I can certainly find support for my view in what various leaders of the Church have said over time. And I think it is entirely fair to say that on this issue, in particular, eternal progression, that there is no official policy because there are views on both sides. So I guess we'll find out when we get there.

John Dehlin [01:10:46] But for you, you have not concluded that they're consigned to an inferior state forever. You definitely don't believe that. Okay, what is your message to family and friends of LGBT Mormons, especially parents

Tom Christofferson [01:11:01] and siblings, That I think when the Savior was asked, what is the greatest commandment? And he said, love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, might, mind and spirit strength, and the second is like unto it love thy neighbor as thyself, and on these two hang all the law and the prophets. I think he meant it. I think he meant that the greatest law is learning to love as he does. And it's not easy. It's not some soft little thing of, you know, that love means never having to say you're sorry or whatever it is. Right? I think it is the great struggle of our lives. And when we say endure to the end, it's, can I endure in love? Can my love for God and my love for a Savior? Can my love for those around me endure? Despite all the challenges of my life and the difficulties and the horrible things that happen, I believe what matters is who we become, not what it's taken to get there. And in that sense, the advice I would have is, here's an opportunity to learn greater love. And so I can promise you that you will be enriched by striving to learn greater love.

John Dehlin [01:12:20] I can see a devout Mormon parent that would say, well, I'll love the sinner, the gay or lesbian Mormon, but I'll hate the sin. And I will, you know, I will make sure that you understand that I don't approve of your lifestyle and that you'll sort of know that you're kind of a disappointment to me. What. How. How would you counsel a parent who sort of took that posture? Because I don't get the sense that that's how you experience your. Your parents and your family. Right.

Tom Christofferson [01:12:54] And I would. I guess I would ask them if that's how they experience the Savior, that despite their efforts, they always fall short, and therefore he's always disappointed and needs to remind them that they always fall short. That's not been my experience. My experience is that there is a loving, never failing desire that anything I can do to approach him is. Is appreciated or is reciprocated fully and welcomed. And that I don't feel like the Savior reminds me constantly I'm less than I could be. I can remind myself of that, but that his connection with me is always to provide strength and encouragement to continue. And to me, that's the pattern.

John Dehlin [01:13:52] And then what if the parent says, okay, I'll take that step further and really love my kid. But your partner's not sleeping in our bed in our home. You won't be coming to stay and sleep over, because then we'll be condoning your sin.

Tom Christofferson [01:14:08] I mean, as you know from the story, my parents didn't take that path. They. They chose to make me feel as welcome in their home as they felt in Mine

John Dehlin [01:14:22] with your partner?

Tom Christofferson [01:14:23] With my partner in the same bed. And that was the right answer for me because I think if they put up barriers, I'm a snotty enough kid, that I would have rebelled and pulled away. I believe they asked for and received revelation to the question about how best to lead their family. And I believe other parents can do the same thing. I'm the youngest of five. There were no kids at home. There are lots of factors that could weigh into it, but I think the most important thing is as you approach the Lord in prayer for the circumstances of your family, what guidance do you get? Follow it.

John Dehlin [01:15:07] What is your message in the book to church leaders, low level to top level around this issue? Do you have any?

Tom Christofferson [01:15:15] Well, I'm not.

John Dehlin [01:15:18] Not an arc studier.

Tom Christofferson [01:15:19] Yeah, it's not that. I just. It's like the point of the book is not to tell them what they should do. I think the point is to say to all of us as members that we have greater opportunities to become a Zion people of one heart, that we have greater opportunities to learn to love as the Savior loves, and we have greater opportunities to make a chapel, a place where anyone who comes in can find a spot.

John Dehlin [01:15:52] I imagine you've considered innovations. When ordained women happened and the feminist thing was happening, there were these big, huge lists of like, changes the church could make that wouldn't require women to get the priesthood, but that would allow women to feel more apart. So for example, women could stay in the circle where their baby is blessed or, you know, maybe, you know, maybe a woman could pass the sacrament or, you know, whatever it is, just innovations. Could be a financial clerk because why not, right? Have you thought about ways that with the current policies, Wards could incorporate, you know, gay Mormons, even same sex married Mormons, that would still be consistent with the current policies. I guess we've talked about it a little bit.

Tom Christofferson [01:16:41] I mean, I haven't really come up with the theses to nail on the door of the church.

John Dehlin [01:16:46] There's service, service opportunities, music opportunities.

Tom Christofferson [01:16:50] I just think. I just think it's all about what is it that we can do to be more welcoming and accepting of the realities of people's lives and have faith that the Lord will guide them in whatever path, in whatever timing is going to be right for him and inside of them. That's not my call. It's not my responsibility to tell somebody else what they need to do and when. My responsibility is to try and create an environment where they can connect with the Savior and feel guided by Him. And as members of the church. I think that's what all of our responsibility is. This is the place, more than any other, where people really ought to be able to come in and feel what it feels like to be in a community of loving support. And in that community, then to feel this unified, mutual desire to be disciples of Jesus Christ and to act as he would act. So if we just figure that, if that's our basis. All right, what's the most loving way that we can engage with people? I think we'll figure out the answers. And it doesn't have to be the same in every ward or for every family, every couple, but it's in their circumstances this time. What's the most loving way that we can engage?

John Dehlin [01:18:05] So even though you don't have a theses to nail up, I think you're on the record as being heartbroken that so many LGBT people don't find a home in the church.

Tom Christofferson [01:18:14] True, yes. Let's just talk about the practicalities of it. Certainly, in my experience, more families of an LGBT kid who comes out young, so 12 to 14, by the time that kid's 18, more families have left the church than have stayed in it. Anecdotally, I don't have evidence, but that's what it feels like to me, because they haven't been able to reconcile how to create that loving space in church to nurture their kid. I think there are ways to do it. I want us to all find those ways together and do it. Because we're washing whole families out of the church. How can we possibly feel good about that?

John Dehlin [01:18:56] Not just the LGBT people, but their families, too.

Tom Christofferson [01:18:59] Right? And it's in every other circumstance, too, where faith crisis, any other thing. Right. If somebody feels that they don't. That they don't have a place and they feel reinforced when they go to church that they don't have a place. How can we feel good about those people wanting to leave when, if we could live our discipleship better, at least they would have a sense that they're loved and wanted and welcomed. They may still decide they need to pursue a path elsewhere, but at least it wouldn't be because they felt poor,

John Dehlin [01:19:32] pushed, or un, unwelcome.

Tom Christofferson [01:19:36] Right?

John Dehlin [01:19:38] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. thank you very much.

Influences, Acknowledgments, and Past Church Harm

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 847

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. All right, what feedback have you received from the book? Do you have categories or kind of buckets of primary feedback? And let's just say the do the hard stuff first or the negative stuff first and then the positive stuff, if you're comfortable sharing.

Tom Christofferson [00:00:54] So the. I would say the hardest one, and I don't want to identify it in such a way that gives them any publicity, but a website, a blog post that was personally cruel in their comments about their view that anyone who talks about accepting gay people has missed the point that Christ will change us. And that because I didn't talk about that as the right answer, that I am Antichrist and a few other things, I was stunned that anyone would.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] So it's like an evangelical Christian view.

Tom Christofferson [00:01:44] Well, it's, I would say a fundamentalist Mormon view. But yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] They're wanting you to condemn. Be more condemnatory.

Tom Christofferson [00:01:54] Well, yeah, that there is. Essentially, it's the old thing of if you have not been changed is because you lack faith or haven't worked hard enough and therefore because of my message that I'm Antichrist. So that was the one that I thought was most conspiracy.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] I'm so sorry.

Tom Christofferson [00:02:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Did it like sometimes if you get a thick enough skin you can just be like, oh, they don't, you know, they don't understand. Bless them. Did that.

Tom Christofferson [00:02:21] I got there, but that one took a few days because I just thought it was so cruel, personally cruel. And then another person sent me a copy of a post that was posted somewhere and I don't know where. That essentially said I had misunderstood the gospel, That the. What is it? I was a double minded person or whatever. Therefore an enemy of God.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] Like duplicitous.

Tom Christofferson [00:02:54] Well, more what I talk about is living in ambiguity, being able to sort of say, look, I can't reconcile these two things at the moment. So I'm just going to live as best I can and work through it and in faith that over time I'll have greater understanding. And this person's view was that kind of, that approach means that you're. You're neither hot nor cold and will be spewed out of the Lord's mouth. That was okay. So in some extent, I mean that's so I expected that there was going to be a camp on that side that would be hostile to the message because it didn't comport with a desire to outlaw anything gay. And then on the other side, this isn't been less of a personal response, but ones that kind of I've seen on Facebook and postings or whatever which fall into two categories. One, this is going to be weaponized and therefore is hurtful to gay people. And two, if you're celibate, you're not really gay. And so I kind of had expected those two. And a few years ago KUTV Rod Decker, when he was still there, did kind of an expose that Mormon Apostle has a Gay Brother. Like it was this big news event. And so that was the first time anything had ever appeared really. And I read all 547 comments that were on the website about it and that cured me of ever needing to read all the comments again. So at this point I don't read all comments. But then on the positive side, I think one of my very favorite notes came from a father who said, I read your book just in time. My son is getting married next week. And up to this point I couldn't imagine how I could embrace him or his partner and be anything other than hypocritical. And after reading the book I've come to feel that not only can I love them, but by loving them I'll love the savior more. And now I look forward to being at that wedding. That was a favorite. And then another one was one that just came yesterday from a woman who said, I'm not a member of your church, but I work with a woman who is who was impressed with your book and gave it to me. And she said I'm not gay, but I was moved by a desire to be loving and reach out and love to people. So those were great.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] So you're finding that parents are getting the message when they've read it? At least some any LGBT people that were grateful, specifically youth or young adults. Or is it too early?

Tom Christofferson [00:05:42] I don't. My primary audience as I was writing was not young people and so I think probably that's the group for whom it offers the least. When I first started writing it really was more toward parents and it was because I wanted to try and convey what I thought would have been my parents experience as I observed it and lived it. And Then the more I went, the more I really hoped there could be an audience of active lds people who don't have gay kids and maybe haven't really thought about this and maybe that this could be a way to introduce them to something that they haven't thought about before, but in a way that would encourage them to be open and engage. And so I've heard from some of those people and been really grateful.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] What was it about Carolyn Pearson and Darius Gray that made you mention them in your acknowledgments?

Tom Christofferson [00:06:47] And Bill Evans was the third.

John Dehlin [00:06:49] That's right. I don't know who that is, so I did.

Tom Christofferson [00:06:51] He's a dear friend who was church public affairs for a long time.

John Dehlin [00:06:55] Yeah.

Tom Christofferson [00:06:56] And it's. And he was the one who sort of spearheaded Prop 8 and then was the one who spearheaded trying to build relationships with the gay community after.

John Dehlin [00:07:03] Oh, as punishment or what? Or is guilt ridden. Like. What?

Tom Christofferson [00:07:08] No, I think it was just. I think it was that he discovered there was a conversation to be had that he hadn't thought anyone would be open to anyway. But it's because of the way they've lived their lives, the three of them, and the great privilege it's been for me to know them, at least to some extent, of people who are authentically who they are and live their lives just completely the best way they can and are willing to let the chips fall where they may, you know, And I want to be that same kind of person. Right. Who's just doing my very best to be honest with myself and with the world and trying to live the truths that I feel have been given to me.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] Hopefully, the last thing I'll say about my research, our findings were that the second best decision that an LGBT Mormon could make is to leave the church, and that very good outcomes in terms of quality of life if they did, relative to either living a closeted life or denying their sexuality, those two were by far the worst choices they could make. So denying that you're gay or lesbian or living a double life, secret life, hidden. So leaving the church was better than those two, but the best option. And there was a very small group, we call them the Integrateds, and they were those who had some way to be both gay and Mormon. And it's. Most people can't do it. But I just want to say that you talk about authenticity. Our research supports the idea that if you can figure out a way to pull that off, you have very good outcomes. So just had to make that plug. Okay, what about Maxine Hanks? Just really quickly, why her?

Tom Christofferson [00:09:09] Of all the people that I shared early drafts of the book with, she's been a friend for a few years because we've had a somewhat similar path of a rich life away from the church and then finding a new rich life back in it again. She took the most time to really look at it and give me thoughts and. And help me think through how to convey some messages.

John Dehlin [00:09:30] So she's just helpful with the editing and.

Tom Christofferson [00:09:31] Yeah, okay, a helpful friend.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] There are. You know, I studied kind of the history of reparative therapy and those sorts of movements. We hear all the time about evangelical Christians, pastors, and ministers that, like, are the most anti gay, anti lgbt. And then you find out they were with a gay prostitute, or you find out that they were living a secret double life. And in some ways, it's the people that are most against something, the people that end up as the public advocates that end up not living up. They enjoy the celebrity of being that spokesperson, the fame or the money or whatever it is, the attention. But then they fall. And it seems like it's almost a cliche at this point that that happens so often.

Tom Christofferson [00:10:17] Did you.

John Dehlin [00:10:18] Your decision to become a spokesman came so quick after kind of getting baptized. Did you think about, let me try this out for five or ten years, and if I can really make sure it's gonna stick? You know what I mean?

Tom Christofferson [00:10:32] I never made a decision to be a spokesman, and I still don't think I have. I consider myself a really private person, and I would far rather be just anonymous and in the background. But I felt like there was, you know, as I first started to talk, it was just to share an experience I was having as an out gay person, non member of the church who was having a wonderful experience with a ward and family. And it's the same thing with the book. It's really just been to say, look, here's for what it can be worth to anyone else, I think here are some examples of what can be profoundly meaningful and powerful experiences in learning to love as Christ loves. And I hope that can be useful to somebody. And I would far rather that my parents had been alive to write the book and that they could have read the Voice of it. And there are so many LGBT voices in and out of the church with great, meaningful stories to tell. One of my other hopes for the book has been that if people can open themselves to one story, I hope they'll open themselves to many stories. Because a lot of people have had different experiences than I've had. And there's knowledge and richness and understanding and compassion to be gained by hearing those stories, and I hope this will just be one of them. On my. Do you.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] Are you comfortable acknowledging that the church, let's just say pre1990, its policies and attitudes towards its LGBT members in many cases were very harmful for them. Are you comfortable saying that?

Tom Christofferson [00:12:20] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] A lot of people. And maybe you saw or heard about this leaked 1981 policy manual for LGBT people.

Tom Christofferson [00:12:29] I just saw it. I haven't had time to read it.

John Dehlin [00:12:31] I haven't read it yet. Okay. So some. You know, the church teaches repentance. Right. And there's been even some leaders that have kind of gone on record and said, we don't apologize. Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:12:47] I think we're headed down a path. I don't really want to go here, but go ahead. Oh, no, keep going. I'll tell you.

John Dehlin [00:12:52] No. Some would say, wouldn't it be great if a church could just say, hey, we're sorry for all that harm we caused? Do you ever resonate with that idea that a church could actually say, because there's this issue of accountability. If the church has caused harm, then why not like we were expected to do as members? Why not make repent? Why not confess, forsake, atone for the mistake in a way that's kind of explicit versus just kind of change policy? But not.

Tom Christofferson [00:13:29] So let me answer that by saying this. I thought President Uchtdorf's talk a few years ago where he talked about that our actions as a church or our past had not always been perfect. Right. And an acknowledgement of that, I thought was powerful and loving and welcome, and perhaps we'll hit a point where there's an opportunity to do something similar here.

LGBT Mental Health and the Suicide Crisis

John Dehlin [00:13:57] Do you acknowledge that there's kind of a suicide crisis today with many LGBT Mormons? And if so, how do you make sense of it?

Tom Christofferson [00:14:10] I wish I had better understanding of all the factors there. I mean, it seems to me, from what I've read, and I was really appreciative that Bob Reese and Kalan Ryan would allow me to print in the book some of what they had put in the family acceptance program as a way to help reduce suicides, I don't think it's a single factor. Right. I think there are many things that are in play, and it seems like the biggest one is mental health issues. But it seems to me that we can, in families, in churches, in schools, in workplaces, that any place where there's a social structure, we can all do better to try Both to support and identify people who are at risk. And so to me, the church is one of the places where it has an impact in a community and. And I hope is an active and increasingly active part of trying to help find ways to do better. We've all got a part of it, and I include the church in that.

John Dehlin [00:15:21] Do you agree that it's sort of at a crisis level, or maybe you don't like that word.

Tom Christofferson [00:15:28] I think one is crisis level, honestly. So, I mean, I would. I don't understand why the numbers seem to have gone up over the past several years. I don't think it's causally related to the policy. That seems to me a little easy. But I would love to understand more. And even as we're trying to understand, I would like all of us, including the church, to work more at trying to provide information about what we can do to help support people who may be at risk. And so the church, Church, as I understand it, is soon to release some more training for bishops and stake presidents and young men, young women leaders. And I'm like, get it out, get it out. That's a really helpful step. And let's do it as fast as we can and as deeply as we can. And, you know, I think schools have tried to do a lot around bullying. I think we can do a lot in families, like the family acceptance program, really, of understanding that we can work through this together. And that's, you know, that has been my hope and reason for being involved within Circle the group in Provo is to try and create a model that says this can be something that brings families more strongly together. As a kid comes out, let's approach it as a family, stay connected as a family and deal with it as a family. And I think that can be the best suicide prevention, at least in terms of the aspects that come from rejecting behaviors in a family.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] Have you spoke about your feelings on the proclamation on the family?

Tom Christofferson [00:17:07] There's a chapter in there. Oh, sorry, the proclamation. No, I haven't. In my gospel doctrine class, I use that as an opportunity to talk about the living Christ statement from the First Presidency and the twelve apostles.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] Which means what?

Tom Christofferson [00:17:25] That was the proclamation that was more powerful to me

John Dehlin [00:17:30] that the. The proclamation of the living Christ was more powerful to you than the proclamation on the family. You're a very diplomatic person.

Tom Christofferson [00:17:40] I didn't think the point was lost.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] No, not at all. What do you make of reports that maybe all the quorum of the 12 don't agree on on these sorts of issues that there's actually differences of opinion and maybe even some who aren't happy or frustrated with how things have gone. Is that plausible?

Tom Christofferson [00:18:01] It's plausible. I don't have any knowledge of it,

John Dehlin [00:18:04] so it's just all kind of speculation and rumor, really. It seemed a couple years ago that the bishops were starting to go after we talked about this, go after gay and lesbian people, especially if they got same sex married and excommunicating them. It seems like that just stopped. Do you have any sense for whether maybe there was instruction to bishops or stake presidents to kind of like stop doing that? None that I'm aware of.

Tom Christofferson [00:18:32] But did you get the sense, I would love to believe that that's just this increasing desire to let an individual set the pace of their engagement in any of those processes that, you know, that our pastoral care for individuals and families really trumps some administrative process.

John Dehlin [00:18:59] I think I heard you say in another podcast that you regarding the November 2015 policy that you long for the day where it might change, is that a fair restatement of what I heard you say?

Tom Christofferson [00:19:10] I think I was a little more nuanced than that. I think what I said was I really do believe the Lord can tell us more and I hope I'm ready for it when he's ready to give it and whatever that might be. And I hope others are joining me in that prayer.

Faith Crises, Church History, and Staying

John Dehlin [00:19:29] Okay, really quick. A big chunk of my audience is severely questioning the church, doubting the church, or no longer believes in the church and have left. I remember a lunch you and I had in Logan a couple years ago where I was surprised to learn that you are very much a literal believer in the restoration. I think I remember you saying golden plates delivered by an angel. Do I remember correctly?

Tom Christofferson [00:20:01] You do.

John Dehlin [00:20:02] But I also remember you saying that, that you believed literally in the church and not without being fully aware and having deeply studied the problems with the church. Am I remembering correctly?

Tom Christofferson [00:20:16] You are.

John Dehlin [00:20:17] Okay. So I feel like everyone who's been able to work through that and figure it out sort of has a responsibility to help those who are struggling make sense of those things. Cause if it's just like, well, I figured it out, but you go figure

Tom Christofferson [00:20:32] it out on your own.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] So how have you ever had a crisis of faith? If so, have you studied all the big problems? And if you have or haven't had a crisis of faith, how have you worked through the big issues like Book of Mormon historicity, Book of Abraham historicity, polygamy, polyandry, racism, those sorts of things? What can you share? Because there's people leaving the church in droves, even more so over these sorts of issues. And you seem to have been able to figure those things out.

Tom Christofferson [00:21:04] I'm not sure my answers are going to be convincing to anybody else, because they're the answers that have resonated in my, pardon me, my life and my life's experiences. But I guess a couple things I would say. One is in the book, I talk about a conversation with my dad when I was a teenager and we were studying the Book of Mormon in seminary, and I went home to him and said, do you think that the Book of Mormon is like, literally somebody was sitting there writing their daily diary and that was what was abridged? Or do you think it's more. These are. And I don't think I said morality tales, but this is really more in the line of parables or that something that we need to know in our day and is taught to us in the form of a story in the same way the Savior used parables and stories to give layers of meaning and everything else. I don't know if I was that clear with my dad about what I thought that meant. But anyway, and dad was a scientist, like he was. If you asked him a question, he gave you an answer. But I really remember on this occasion, he sort of sat back and he said, well, how do you feel about the Book of Mormon itself? And I said, well, I feel like I've prayed about Moroni's challenge there, and I feel like I've received an answer to that. So I feel like it really is a witness of Christ. And he said, okay, so then does either answer whether this is literally a history or whether it's more in the line of parable, change your experience with it or your belief in it? I said, no. So for me, I think differently than many people in experiences at a really foundational age and stage of my own learning process. I kind of got permission to be able to think broadly about what this all might be and not literally that I could think about it in my own ways. And frankly, that I didn't have to necessarily conceive it in the same way that others did in order for me to accept it or be a Mormon. And I remember, like the theme of Sunstone was last year, two years ago, there are many ways to be Mormon or there's more than one way to be Mormon. I like that. I like that idea. Because I said to you when I was thinking about coming back to church, being baptized, there were two questions where they had the second One about whether I would fit. It wasn't so much the fact that I was either going to be in a gay semi relationship or a gay emotional relationship in a straight church, or that I was going to be single in a straight church. It really was that all the experiences of my life have given me a way to conceive doctrine and theology that I don't think is necessarily the same as somebody I'm sitting next to in the pews. And did that mean I had to change my understanding in order to be able to be a Mormon? And the answer that I got over some experiences over the period of that year was that I'd had these experiences because that was how I needed to learn. And the way I have learned is something I can continue to build on. So I'm not a literal believer in a lot of things that maybe some people are. And I am a literal believer in some things that maybe some people aren't. But I have really. The one thing that is the foundation and basis of all my belief is that Jesus Christ is real, that he lives and that I can connect with him. And that's everything else to me can rise or fall as it will, but builds off of that.

John Dehlin [00:25:06] I love that answer. And yet you're saying you do believe in golden plates.

Tom Christofferson [00:25:10] I do. And for me, it's because there were so many people in different circumstances who had some either feeling through the cotton or a direct view of it, whatever, who in my mind, there were enough of them who had no reason to go along with this. So I think they're real.

John Dehlin [00:25:30] So for you, there was a Moroni, there was a Nephi that lived.

Tom Christofferson [00:25:35] Can I just go that they. I believe the plates were given to Joseph by a Moroni. And the rest of it, I. Oh,

John Dehlin [00:25:42] so the historicity of the book, you're indifferent too. Honestly indifferent to.

Tom Christofferson [00:25:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] Open to it either way, but not. You're not. Like, I absolutely know that it was historical, as people tend to literally think of it as being historical.

Tom Christofferson [00:25:56] Yeah. Like, are there horses in South America? I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] So the anachronism is not a big deal because.

Tom Christofferson [00:26:02] Because I really. I guess I conceive it as I really do believe, that. That there were plates that this. That what is we now call the Book of Mormon, was intended for us to have to come to greater understanding of Jesus Christ. And whether that's a parable, which I'm fine to believe because to me, that allows me to have different, again, greater layers of meaning and understanding and continued richness as I bring different experiences to it. So I'm really not that worried about whether it ever happened. But I think the lessons it teaches me, what I learned from it and draw from it, are critical, and I believe in them.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] Thank you for your candor. Book of Abraham, same thing then.

Tom Christofferson [00:26:49] Yeah. I don't.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] The fact that papyrus.

Tom Christofferson [00:26:54] Yeah. Doesn't really bother me. And honestly, I wish we would talk about. I wish the word we would use for the Book of Mormon is that Joseph Smith revealed, not translated. And I think the same is true of the Book of Abraham. For me, these are revelations that Christ wants me to have accessible in my life, and I find great meaning and value in them.

John Dehlin [00:27:23] That's kind of the catalyst theory. Isn't that what it's called? Those artifacts were what inspired Joseph to channel, reveal, not translate, even though he thought he was translating. Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:27:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] So that's kind of tricky that we kind of think it might not have been a translation yet he thought it was a translation.

Tom Christofferson [00:27:42] And when you talk about the Book of Mormon, in particular from the scribes, talking about the process and how it came, you know, how it went through day by day and picking up a sentence or whatever, I mean, people may think I'm selling that short by saying, I think it's revelation more than translation, but to me, that can be revelation and still happen in exactly the way that people described it, who were the scribes as it happened. And I realized in saying this that there will be people who think I'm just far too intellectually uncurious or something, that I'm too quick to come to an answer. But this is what has made sense to me intellectually and where I find spiritual value.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] How have you grappled with the polygamy, the polyandry, the underaged brides of Joseph Smith?

Tom Christofferson [00:28:40] I am still grappling, and I guess I would say my current way of thinking about it is that Joseph was in such a rush to restore that he was restoring many things. And whether Heavenly Father required that to be restored is an open question in my mind. To me, I think Carolyn's book is masterful about the pernicious, the ghost of.

John Dehlin [00:29:13] The Ghost of Polygamy. Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:29:14] Ghost of eternal polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] Ghost of eternal Polygamy. We're having her on soon. Keep going.

Tom Christofferson [00:29:19] Well, how lucky for you.

John Dehlin [00:29:20] Yeah, no, keep going. I just wanted to give her a plug.

Tom Christofferson [00:29:23] She's so great. So I don't know. I'm willing to believe again in sort of my sense of revelation and prophets and how the whole process works. That wasn't it Elder Holland, who said, it must be incredibly frustrating for the Lord to have to deal with us because we're all he's got, that I think doing our best, we can still have really negative consequences. And either those consequences can be sanctified for our good, or we won't be held accountable for. The challenges that creates in our life and what we do as a result, in my view.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] So what would you do with section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants, then? If it's canonized scripture. And yet maybe it's. I guess you're.

Tom Christofferson [00:30:26] You know, for me, it's actually pretty closely related to LGBT stuff, which is, I think we know so little about the plan of salvation in the sense of really what comes after this in any real sense, that I think the answer to both is that the Lord reveal more to us about what the plan of salvation really means and what eternity, what the quality of life that God lives, being eternal life really means in terms of what we will experience.

John Dehlin [00:30:57] So just ever learning, continuing revelation, even scriptures aren't the final word. You're basically saying there's more understanding. It's very Mormon. It's very Mormon teaching. Okay, but if. Then if somebody says, what's the value? And you're in a unique position because your brother happens to be a prophet,

Tom Christofferson [00:31:16] revelator, that means I can't talk anymore. If you're going to say, no, no,

John Dehlin [00:31:19] no, no, no, no, I'm not going there. Somebody will say, what's the value add of a prophet, seer and revelator. If they can make such a big mistake as Joseph Smith's polygamy. If they can make such a big mistake. You don't like that word, but this is what people are saying. If they can make such a big mistake is the LGBT policies that harmed a lot of people. And it almost seems like sometimes they're responding to social pressures and some would even say they're kind of behind the times. What's their value add? And I know you believe they have one, so I don't think it's a trick answer.

Tom Christofferson [00:31:57] Can I rephrase another way to say it, which I think is if every word that proceeds out of the mouth of a prophet isn't perfect and every word isn't exactly what God wants said every time they come to a pulpit or whatever, what's their value?

John Dehlin [00:32:12] Or is harmful. Right.

Tom Christofferson [00:32:14] Well, would God give us harmful stuff for a purpose? I don't know, but I think probably not.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] Anyway.

Tom Christofferson [00:32:23] So if it isn't all perfect why do we have prophets? And I think the point is that they become an additional resource to us as we approach the Lord to have greater understanding. So I think in addition to Scriptures, we have prophets and we have experience. And those are the things we bring in our personal plea for revelation to be able to understand, reconcile, and move forward. That's my end.

Belonging, Identity, and Being Gay in Eternity

John Dehlin [00:32:52] As I read your book and as I have watched the Givens and the Bushmans, there's some times I personally feel like as an advocate for change or that I've kind of failed. And the reason why I feel that way is because I see how diplomatic and kind and kind of soft but thoughtful but direct that people like you and the Bushmans and the Givens are that I feel like sometimes I kind of. I blew it. But what is, you know, there's a question of is there a place for criticism in or of the church? And you don't have to answer that, but you can if you want to. But I'm more interested in the answer to the question of how do you think about the most effective ways to affect positive change in the church? Do you think about that?

Tom Christofferson [00:33:50] I do.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] You kind of seem to want to deny, downplay your potential role as a change agent, even though I think you really probably want to see positive change and even help make it so. How do you think of helping positive change occur in the church? As an individual, by the way I

Tom Christofferson [00:34:08] live my life, what do you mean? I mean, I really do believe that change happens by the collective way we all are living our lives. And maybe that's why you perceive it as more diplomatic. But I think Terrell and Fiona and Elder Jensen or whoever else, I think that we're all saying, look, my focus is how can I be a better disciple of Jesus Christ? What can I do to better understand the gospel doctrines, the theology, and be able to put that into practice? And it doesn't require that I convince other people I'm right. It just requires that I keep trying to do the very best I can. And then I believe that's the power of Zion. Right. Is that all of us trying to do the very best we can to continue to learn to love as the Savior loves and act in those ways will change the world.

John Dehlin [00:35:11] So be the change you want to see, basically. No, really?

Tom Christofferson [00:35:14] Yeah, I guess it is. But to me, that's. To me, the relationship with Christ is one on one. I think the church has purposes, as again in the book that I love so much of the Christ who heals the notion of reforming the family of God in ordinances and. And in practice, connecting, rebuilding those connections for the whole family of God. But I think I really believe the purpose of purpose is not the right word. But I really believe the gospel of Jesus Christ is how I can connect to him and then feel that loving desire to become as he is. And that's so part of how I learned to love as he does is my interaction with you or our interaction as a congregation or as a community or whatever. And so I feel like that's the essence of all of this, is our individual connection to him. And therefore, as we can in a loving way, engage and cement those bonds of the family of God that brings us all in a place where we want to lovingly become as he is.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] You talk. I think I read in the book this quote that everybody's still a part of my church. What do you mean by that?

Tom Christofferson [00:36:44] I thought I said that to you personally.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] Okay, I wrote it down. So tell me what you mean by that. Why do you say that or what does it mean to you?

Tom Christofferson [00:36:55] It means that no one can excommunicate themselves from my church. That I want to be able to be in communion with anyone who's willing to be in communion with me. And that I will learn from that and that together we can become more Christlike. I will learn from your example and your experience and you from mine. And somehow that connection helps us both to move forward. So I don't want you to feel like there's some separation between you and me in my church. You're in it.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] What made you write me after my excommunication?

Tom Christofferson [00:37:41] That I felt like it was such a hurtful, painful thing. And I wanted to tell you that, that I had found in my excommunication that there was great freedom to be able to approach the church in ways that were. That could be healthy and happy making for me. That it didn't have to be the end of the story, that it could just be a new chapter in it.

John Dehlin [00:38:07] I appreciated that. So you talk about people like to ask the question, do you think you'll be gay in the afterlife? Do you even want to respond to that?

Tom Christofferson [00:38:21] Or. I don't know. I mean, what I say is, I think some of the ways that I approach the world, of how I learn, how I engage, where I find meaning and purpose and joy, that a lot of those things are intertwined with how I understand being gay today. So in that sense, I don't think they're going to disappear. But in the book, I use the example of my mom, although I think I called her a friend, but my mom who would say if I have to be pregnant forever in eternity, it's not going to be heaven for me. I think there are different ways to, to imagine how we are going to relate with one another as children of heavenly parents. And I think there are ways that intelligences might become spirits that are more akin to how matter unorganized becomes a world than how a spirit is clothed with a body. So I don't know the answers to those, but at least some of the ways that we think about being gay may be irrelevant and some of the ways I think may well be eternal.

John Dehlin [00:39:38] Some wanted to think that maybe when Joseph was experimenting with the law of adoption that somehow that could be a theology that encompasses same sex sort of orientation in the afterlife. Is that part of your theology at all or.

Tom Christofferson [00:39:57] I don't know. I mean I say this sort of jokingly, but also just because I think, you know, an ideas is about as good as any other when we have a lack of knowledge. Earlier in my career I was co head of a business with a woman, but I went home to my partner at night and I said to someone like I can, in my mind I can imagine this, that somehow the opposites, that there's a power in opposites coming together. And Joseph used to call proving the contraries and yin and yang or however you want to think about it. I'm quite willing to believe there's some power there in the notion that the highest degree of priesthood is a joint exercise of these opposites. But I could, you know, can't there still be a way to go home to my partner at the end of the workday in the celestial kingdom or something? I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] There are some who are like this is the one and only true church and the only path of God. And then there's others that kind of say, who knows, maybe in this mortal existence there's many paths up Mount Fuji. Do you kind of put yourself on any part of that spectrum?

Tom Christofferson [00:41:08] I do. This is probably an unsatisfying answer because it's some of each. But I do believe that this is the restored church of Jesus Christ. And I believe that there are good people who are perfected and receiving revelation and inspiration who are outside of it.

John Dehlin [00:41:28] So it's both, kind of both. I like that. Do you feel like a second class citizen in the church right now?

Tom Christofferson [00:41:37] No, but you know, that's because my focus of the church is my experience in my ward, you know, and I'm now the gospel doctrine teacher for the third time in the third ward I've been in since I was baptized. And I love that opportunity to really engage with saints and to study scripture together and to really try to come closer to Christ together. And I feel very united with the members of my congregation in that sense. I feel united as we try to serve and try to make our experience broader than our ward, but our whole community and find ways to engage with everybody, not because we want to baptize them, but because we want to be a force for good with other people who are trying to be a force for good. So I don't feel like a second class citizen in my experience of the

John Dehlin [00:42:29] church, but you could see how maybe other LGBT people might feel that way.

Tom Christofferson [00:42:35] I mean, you know, I. I'm coming to a point in my life where I may have more free time and maybe I'd like to go on a mission, but at this moment, as a single man, I can't go on a mission. So there are things that I think are kind of a little crazy that should be relatively easy to fix that can give somebody a feeling that they're a second class citizen.

John Dehlin [00:43:01] Yeah. So in. So I think I'm ready to kind of ask my final questions. Is that okay?

Tom Christofferson [00:43:13] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] Are you ready?

Tom Christofferson [00:43:15] I'm ready. It's dark out. I'm ready.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] You've been great. You've been really patient with me, and I really appreciate it.

Tom Christofferson [00:43:22] It's been a good conversation. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] Yeah, thank you.

Tom Christofferson [00:43:25] I loved it.

Authenticity, Rebaptism, and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [00:43:28] So. In closing, you told the story. One of my favorite stories in the book is when you talk about the car and the air conditioner and authenticity. I want to end with that because I think it's really power. Not end with that, but I want to have that be a part of the ending, because I think that's really powerful, and it's powerful for not just LGBT people. Do you mind sharing that?

Tom Christofferson [00:43:58] Sure. When we lived in New Jersey, we would drive to Utah every summer to go spend time with our grandparents. And the first year or two that we were doing that, five boys, two parents in a car that did not have air conditioning. And it was. Air conditioning was still sort of a novelty in a car at that point. I think I did some research on the Internet when I was writing the book, and something like 20% of cars may have had it, and we were not in the 20%. So one time as we were going through Wyoming, my brother Greg had the idea that if we rolled up our windows, other people would Think we had air conditioning and be jealous.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] That's a great idea.

Tom Christofferson [00:44:42] And so, as I sort of say here, I'm trying to figure out, since I was really young, I don't really remember the experience directly, but everybody was game and rolled them up until they could bear it no longer. But I've wondered, what is it about seeing a bunch of sweaty people in a car with their windows up that would make you think they had air conditioning rather than think they were idiots? I don't know. But that idea of let's try and make an appearance or give a perception of something that's not true is ultimately more harmful to you than the people you're trying to convince. You're the one that's sweating. They're not. They got their windows down or they really do have air conditioning. It's a funny story, and it's one we love to laugh at in our family. But I think there's a little moral there about being who you are.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] And I love how the story transitioned to you in the business world and. And how at some point you felt like you needed to start being authentic with even business associates, which I'm assuming was super scary at the time.

Tom Christofferson [00:45:48] It was. And as I say in the book, it was sort of progressive with each position. I gained a little more courage with each experience to be more open or more open to more people. And interestingly, the hardest step was the last one. So most of my career, I've been in sales or client management. And the point was how to be authentic with clients and prospects. And I felt like they were clients of the firm. And was it really my place to maybe put at risk a relationship that wasn't genuinely mine, it was the firm's. And what I came to understand was that. That what I'd learned in other settings already, that people may not be able to put their finger on it and really explain why, but they feel somewhat ill at ease with somebody where they feel isn't being completely truthful. And so if I was holding something back or trying to be something I wasn't, I was putting an element into our relationship that was going to sow distrust, not closeness and trust. And what I learned was if I just said something very innocuous early in a relationship, which usually was, oh, my partner's a doctor, and he da da da da da, or, well, my partner's mom has this disease or whatever, and as a doctor, he's been trying to help her with that. Just something that didn't need to be commented on. But people could file away. And then it preserved them from later embarrassment of making an assumption that I was married to a woman. And then I would correct them and they would feel embarrassed and it would be an awkward moment. And just saying something early on that was kind of light allowed me to be honest, allowed them to feel I was being honest, and allowed as to avoid embarrassment later on.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] Love that. So you've talked about big tent Mormonism, and I want to know if you can conceive of a scenario where someone

Tom Christofferson [00:48:06] who

John Dehlin [00:48:09] feels like the idea of an anthropomorphic God is kind of too easy. Right. We're bodies. God is bodies that can't fully sign up to sort of literally resurrected Jesus. That maybe they're okay with the teachings of love and kindness, but the literality they can't really put their full support behind, who can't see the Book of Mormon as literal, maybe even thinks it's kind of something inspired fiction or whatever, who isn't okay with polygamy, who maybe doesn't even see the church as the one true church or the need for exclusive ordinances. So they just kind of don't really believe any of the core doctrines, but they still want to remain in fellowship and maybe follow the teachings of Christ the best that they can and just enjoy the community and the fellowship. I imagine there are 20,000 of my listeners that kind of fit in that boat. And they, for whatever reason, felt like either they weren't wanted in the church or that there was no realistic path to be authentic, like you just said, and to stay in it. What would you say to them?

Tom Christofferson [00:49:24] To me, that what you sort of

John Dehlin [00:49:26] posited is if they wanted to try

Tom Christofferson [00:49:28] and make it work, the desire to try and live Christ's teachings to me is at least a willingness to believe that Christ lives, you know, that there's something there. And to me, that's all. That's all you need. I think all the rest of that is fine. I think if your purpose is to go convince everybody else that you're right and they're wrong, it's going to be a frustrating experience and will not sow the seeds of brotherhood and community. But I think a willingness to be honest about, you know, this is something that I can't quite wrap my head around. Happy if you can. But it doesn't work for me in that framework of wanting to live a life, to become as the Savior is. I think that's enough. You may not have the desire then to get to the temple, or may not get you in the temple, but to me, that's. That can be a second order thing. You can have full communion with a congregation, be fully engaged, and see if that continues to bring value and peace and love in your life.

John Dehlin [00:50:47] And what do you do if you run up against leadership that won't let you remain a member of good standing if you're honest about the things you don't believe in?

Tom Christofferson [00:50:59] You know, to me, it's always been more important that I feel like I'm being honest in my prayers and relationship to Christ and to myself and let the chips fall where they will. So, you know, I would hate to feel like that's. That, you know, there wasn't a place for someone who's being honest about where they stand and how they understand it and are willing to believe that there may be a Christ. I would hate to think there's not a place for them. But if somebody's going to say that there's not, I think the fault is going to be with that person, not the one who's honestly trying to live with the light they have.

John Dehlin [00:51:44] If you had not been allowed to get rebaptized, do you think you probably would have stayed faithful and active?

Tom Christofferson [00:51:52] I think so.

John Dehlin [00:51:53] Not as a member. Yeah, that's kind of what the line

Tom Christofferson [00:51:56] is, as what I used to say, the most active non member of the New Canaan Ward. Because there was. I found satisfaction in that there were ways that I could participate. And I felt like I was continuing to grow in my personal relationship with Christ, that those things were valuable to me. So as long as that continued to feel valuable, I would have been active.

John Dehlin [00:52:23] Okay, three last questions. You ready? Two questions. And then what's my favorite color?

Tom Christofferson [00:52:30] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:52:31] What have been the hardest parts of this journey?

Tom Christofferson [00:52:34] Ending the relationship, obviously. What else?

John Dehlin [00:52:43] I think.

Tom Christofferson [00:52:50] I don't know. In my personal journey, it's also the feeling that I always come up short, that I want to do better than I do and want to be able to be a more consistent disciple than I am.

John Dehlin [00:53:08] Okay. Making mistakes.

Tom Christofferson [00:53:11] Yeah. Yeah. And it's the. I just feel like there's so many. I. I feel like there's so much more I could do if I would just do it. Then I get frustrated that I don't.

John Dehlin [00:53:23] You're doing a lot, brother. What are you talking about? All right. What are the most rewarding parts of this journey?

Tom Christofferson [00:53:30] The connection to the Savior. Absolutely. It's my feeling that I am known by him, that I'm loved by him, and that I can go to him and rely on his sustaining love and power.

John Dehlin [00:53:50] That's very real for you.

Tom Christofferson [00:53:52] It is.

John Dehlin [00:53:53] If somebody were to say, you're able to do all this because your brother's sort of an apostle, that you kind of have privilege, that that's what allows Tom Kristofferson to do what he's doing, what would you say?

Tom Christofferson [00:54:06] Well, the best part for me was when I first started coming back to church, he was not an apostle. And nobody knows who the 70s are. With all due regard to the weight of the burden they carry. I don't know. Members just by and large don't know who they are. So I was really grateful to feel like when I came back and had that conversation with the bishop and began to engage in the word, nobody knew. And so that that was what he would have said to anybody who'd come in with the same message, didn't matter who they were related to. And yeah, I mean, now people do know. And it's a double edged sword. Right. I feel like I worry that, you know, me trying to share my experiences can make it harder for him to fulfill his calling in some ways. And I worry that I don't know that I, again, I'd rather just be able to be anonymously me and live my life and not feel that somebody is willing to listen just because my brother happens to be an apostle. And then at the same time I think, well, but if they're willing to listen and I can share something of my family's story and my word story that, that I think can be edifying and help build Zion, then I want to do it.

John Dehlin [00:55:29] All right, I'm going to get you out on this.

Tom Christofferson [00:55:30] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:55:31] Probably my favorite part of the book, or at least a major favorite part, was in the Measuring Success chapter. And I start it.

Tom Christofferson [00:55:40] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:55:40] And I want you to read that or anything else, and I want you to comment on what you're saying here about what a successful life is or how to measure success and then trail that into closing comments. For those who are on the edge of their seats waiting for the final bit of wisdom, is that all right?

Tom Christofferson [00:56:01] Those who are incredibly patient have waited through this long. That is the most important lesson. My parents and I learned that success in parents efforts is measured by the love and unity in a family, not by the church activity of each family member. Personal agency plays the key role in determining that. But parents can have the greatest impact by creating an environment in which every family member feels included, respected, valued and adored. The choices family members make will determine much of what their lives become and all that makes up who they become. But Home can be the one place where they are secure, where they find sustenance and give solace. The success comes when every member of the family pulls his or her own weight. A gay family member who sits back and waits for everyone else in the family to demonstrate their love, respect and interest before he or she will do the same thing is missing an enormous opportunity for personal growth and development. We may have the greater ability to reach out, if nothing else, to model the behavior we hope others will exhibit. Scorekeeping is fatal. The relationships within a family are not a zero sum game and there are no individual winners. Either we all win together through increased understanding and compassion, or we all lose that growth and accompanying deepened commitment.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] What would you like to end with as a final message trailing off that what you were trying to say there?

Tom Christofferson [00:57:40] You know that my sense of trying to follow Jesus Christ is to try and reach out in love and understanding and compassion to everyone, whatever their circumstances may be. And that I am so grateful for the people who do that for me in my life. Some of them are members of the church and some of them are not. And I just hope that anyone who is willing to try and see if there's a place that is healthy and happy and joyful for them in the church will find it. I want so desperately for us to be better than we are as a church, to. To be so much more engaged and so much less judgmental, so much more welcoming and so much less hesitant to reach out when we don't fully understand. I want to be part of that and I want people to maybe have a little courage to try and see if their congregation might exhibit that as well.

John Dehlin [00:58:53] All right, Bless you, Tom Kristofferson. This was probably one of my favorite interviews of Mormon stories. Definitely top 10.

Tom Christofferson [00:59:03] You are still in my church. Thank you. You're not.

John Dehlin [00:59:07] I'm still in this church. I'm in a church. I'll take it. That's an honor.

Tom Christofferson [00:59:12] Seriously, thank you. I really appreciate that you're willing to have an open, heart hearted conversation about things, knowing that, you know that we all see some things differently. But maybe there's something that we can gain by listening.

John Dehlin [00:59:25] I've gained a lot.

Tom Christofferson [00:59:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:59:27] And I know listeners have gained a lot. So those of you on Facebook Live, we didn't get to a lot of your comments and questions because I took like 100 questions beforehand and that's all we have time for. But I hope you enjoyed. I'm going to go back and read all your comments because I know there were hundreds of comments and I appreciate everyone joining us. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. We love you. We appreciate your support. We hope you love this interview. Please keep supporting us in the various ways you can. It means the world we couldn't do this without you. Have a wonderful holidays, a merry Christmas, and we'll be coming back very soon again for another episode of Mormon Stories. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. thank you very much.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.