Episode Transcript
Host: John Dehlin
This transcript is machine-generated and lightly edited for readability. The audio is authoritative. Please excuse occasional errors in names and spelling.
Introduction to Why Committed Mormons Leave
John Dehlin [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.
John Dehlin [00:00:07] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org hello and welcome to this presentation entitled Top 5 Myths and Truths about why Committed Mormons Leave the Church. My name is John Dehlin.
John Dehlin [00:00:37] This is a picture of my family. For those of you who are just listening on audio, this is also a YouTube presentation that you can find at YouTube.com mormonstories quick little bit about me I've spent about the past eight years or so speaking with thousands of disaffected Mormons from all over the world.
John Dehlin [00:00:56] I almost left the church myself, to be honest, but I've recently returned. I attend church weekly with my family and I consider myself to be a believer, but I kind of call myself a reconstructed believer because I had to sort of lose my faith and then reassemble it again in a way that was comfortable to me. But I still consider myself a believer, for whatever that's worth.
John Dehlin [00:01:19] Today we want to talk about sort of a very difficult issue within Mormonism, which is the extent to which some people are leaving the Church. This graph that I'm showing you here shows a quick analysis of our attempt to capture the growth rates of Mormonism, but also the activity rates that the Church is currently experiencing. And what we find is that even though the Church claims somewhere between 14 and 16 million members of record, the truth is that the number of active members is much less than that. Current estimates are around 5 million or so active members of the Church across the world, which is very different from the 14/million number that's often quoted.
John Dehlin [00:02:03] You know, this is something the Church has talked publicly about in articles and elsewhere, and it's a real issue. Maybe this issue was captured best by Marlon Jensen about a year ago when he basically said, quote, maybe since Kirtland, we've never had a period of, I'll call it apostasy like we're having now.
John Dehlin [00:02:26] It's definitely a big issue. And the main purpose of this presentation was to discuss the top five myths that many people have, especially believing members of the church have, about why people leave the church. And I'll just kind of list those myths. Now. The first myth is that these people have left were offended by someone. The second is that they desired to sin. The third is that they never had a testimony to Begin with the fourth is that they're lazy or they stopped praying or reading the Scriptures. And the fifth is that they studied anti Mormon literature. And what I want to do in this presentation today is challenge those myths and instead lay out some alternative answers based on evidence for why people are leaving the church.
John Dehlin [00:03:15] I mentioned earlier that I myself kind of struggled a little bit with my testimony and considered leaving the Church. But in my experience, I wasn't offended by anyone. I wasn't desiring to commit any sin. I felt like I had a testimony. I was praying and reading the Scriptures regularly. In fact, I was an early morning seminary teacher in Seattle in the early 2000s when I started struggling with my testimony. And I certainly wasn't, in my perspective, studying anti Mormon literature. For me, all of this started while I was studying the CES curriculum manuals for Seminary institute students when my crisis hit.
John Dehlin [00:03:58] So for me, when I heard these allegations, as I was struggling through my crisis, these allegations felt very hurtful. And for me, they made a very difficult situation even more difficult. And so what we're going to be doing today is providing you some data so that we're not basing our assumptions on. On just perceptions or anecdote. So a little bit of background. In 2011, I was approached by a retired member of the Third Quorum of the Seventy, someone who had served as what many would refer to as a general authority in the Church, who was troubled himself by some of the historical issues. Now, he was no longer a member of the quorum of the 70.
John Dehlin [00:04:39] He had since retired, but he was troubled by some of these issues, and he wanted to have a meeting with general authority of the Church. And so he asked me to prepare, me and a few friends to prepare a presentation for this general authority to be able to describe the difficulties and maybe try and help the Church address these issues. So me, along with several really good friends, we administered a survey online to about 3,000 disaffected Mormons to find out how or why they lost their faith in the church.
John Dehlin [00:05:12] And we assembled these data together, we presented them to the General authority. And the General authority valued the information so much that he had this presentation delivered at least once, if not several times, at church headquarters in Salt Lake City to people at the highest levels, some of the highest levels of the church, including at least one or two apostles, as I understand it.
John Dehlin [00:05:36] So these data have been used by the Church to help them understand this problem better. And. And so I just wanted to let you know that our presentation is based on that data. The presentation or the data have been released at a website called whymormonsquestion.org so if you want to see sort of an in depth analysis of these data, you can do that there.
About the Survey and Its Respondents
John Dehlin [00:05:57] So a little bit about our survey because it's important to know where our sample came from. Again, There were over 3,000 respondents to the survey. We call this a sample of convenience or a snowball sample. It was not a random scientific sample. That said, it's a very large sample. Most social scientists that I know would kill to have a sample of 3,000 people for a study that they're conducting.
John Dehlin [00:06:24] These participants were recruited through liberal and former Mormon LDS websites, forums, blogs and podcasts. So mostly online recruiting. These participants have a higher than average income and education. They're definitely skewed towards Caucasian, middle to upper class Internet connected US Church members. So it's definitely not trying to represent the global church or even a random representation of church members in the U.S. it's definitely from this population that we've drawn from for our sample.
John Dehlin [00:07:00] One of the graphics that's most stark was a graph that sort of represents when people are leaving the church. And what we see from our data is that most of the participants who took our survey, almost 1,000 of them left the church within the past three years, three or four years. And we see that there's definitely an exponential trend in growing, growing trend of people leaving the church.
John Dehlin [00:07:28] And that sort of validates the earlier graph that I showed you about decline in active church membership. So let's go ahead and address the five myths and talk about how these data help to dispel some of these myths a little bit. The first two myths that we discussed were that people were either offended or they desired to sin. And as we asked them point blank, why did you leave the church?
Five Categories of Reasons People Leave
John Dehlin [00:07:53] Being offended or wanting to do something like drink alcohol or engage in extramarital sex were actually the least common reasons cited for them wanting to leave. Now I realize that this is self report, but still, you know, we have to sort of at least take as evidence what these people say were their own experiences. And again, 4% indicated having been either offended or a desire to engage in behaviors contrary to church teachings. So again, having been offended or sinning, we're really not accurate when describing why people were leaving the church. Now this will make even more sense when we discuss myths three and four, so we'll jump to them.
John Dehlin [00:08:34] Now, myths three and four are that people leave the church either because they never had a testimony to begin with, or because they're lazy and stopped praying and reading the Scriptures. However, when we actually asked our respondents, you know, what their callings had been in the church up until the point they became disaffected, we were also very amazed. For the men, 73% of the respondents had served missions. This seems very high. 50% had served in elders quorum presidencies, 40% in young men's presidencies. Perhaps what was most stark, one out of five of these male participants had served in bishopric. So that's 20%. In my experience, that's much higher than, you know, in any ward that I've attended where 1 in 5 of the male ward adults had served in bishoprics, 11% had served as temple workers.
John Dehlin [00:09:25] Many were high priest group leaders. We even had 5% of our respondents had served on stake high councils, 4% had served in some type of stake auxiliary presidency. And we had 20 participants who had served in stake presidencies, five who served admission presidencies, and again, one former general authority or area authority from the church. Again with women, we found very similar, very high levels of participation. Over a third had served in relief Society presidencies, 17% had served missions, many had served in stake auxiliary positions, etc. So again, I think the best way to reflect this was a comment that a general authority once made to me in tears when he basically said, we in the church are losing our best and our brightest or some of our best and our brightest.
John Dehlin [00:10:14] And that's what our data indicate. So to say that they were weak or weren't reading the Scriptures or praying or just really weren't committed or, or didn't have a testimony to begin with, that doesn't make sense given the fact that so many of them served in such high leadership positions. So if these aren't accurate myths, then what are the most common reasons that people leave? Well, I'll start with a disclaimer that some of these issues that we're about to talk about can be very troubling.
John Dehlin [00:10:44] But I should also say that these issues have been reconciled by some people. So it's not like to be exposed to these pieces of information means that you're going to lose your faith. It just means that you're going to become aware of things that are difficult, but that also there are ways to reconcile them if you want to. And we'll talk about some resources at the end to help those who want to reconcile some of these difficult issues. So the five types of issues that we found were the most common reasons why people have left the church are the following. The first are historical issues.
John Dehlin [00:11:17] The second are scientific issues. The third is doctrinal or theological issues. The fourth is socio, political and cultural issues, and the fifth is spiritual issues. So let's talk about each one. Historical issues. There were many, probably 20 issues that were listed. We're just going to list sort of the most common ones here. The first has to do with Joseph Smith's credibility as a prophet and most importantly, as a translator. Many people learn, and this has been validated in church publications, that before Joseph, you know, sort of actively created the church and was serving as a prophet for the church before that, he sort of had a history of seeking for buried treasure.
John Dehlin [00:11:58] He would often use a stone to try and find the buried treasure. And while there was never any evidence that he really did find any buried treasure, many people believe that he had that gift and talent. And so that, you know, that has been explained by some as not a big deal because folk magic was very common in the early 1800s. Where it becomes difficult for some is that Joseph, it turns out when he translated the Book of Mormon, often used one of the seer stones that he had used for treasure digging, where he put that in a hat, put his face in the hat, and not even really looking at the golden plates, sort of dictate the Book of Mormon through a similar type of means that he had used to allegedly find buried treasure.
John Dehlin [00:12:44] And this is very troubling for some people when you combine that with the fact that scientists or linguists or Egyptologists have found the early papyra that the Book of Abraham was translated from and have analyzed it, they found really no.
John Dehlin [00:13:03] No relevance or no translation that's in any way accurate between the original Egyptian papyra and what's said or found in the Book of Abraham. And then we also know that some people who are trying to fool Joseph Smith brought him some fake plates that they had created with some figures on it and asked him to translate it. These were called the Kinderhook Plates. And Joseph actually produced a translation, these plates, which to many indicated that he, you know, wasn't really translating, but he was kind of making things up. So, you know, these are the types of issues that have caused many to question Joseph Smith's credibility as a translator.
John Dehlin [00:13:43] Now, again, there are believers who know all this and have found ways to not have this disrupt their testimony. But these are big issues that have caused many to question their faith. Some of the others are Joseph Smith, Paul, polygamy, and specifically a word many of you may not know called polyandry, which is where Joseph would actually marry women who were already married to other men and in some cases men who were active and faithful in the church. This was confusing. This is confusing to many people. And they don't understand why Joseph would take wives that were already married to other people.
John Dehlin [00:14:16] And of course, the fact that even after the church denounced polygamy that they kept practicing it for 10 or 15 years. We call this post manifesto polygamy. You can look all this up at your leisure, but polygamy is a huge problem for people in the church once they start learning about it.
John Dehlin [00:14:33] Others are bothered by the denial of priesthood and temple ordinances to blacks. They're also bothered by the racism sometimes they find in the Book of Mormon where it equates dark skin with evilness and with God's cursings. A lot of people are disturbed by the Masonic influences from the Masonic Lodge and many things that crept into the LDS Temple ceremony. Many of those things which have been removed, which is also disturbing to some because they wonder why the temple ceremony is changing so much.
John Dehlin [00:15:05] Many people are bothered by the fact that Joseph offered multiple and varying accounts of his first vision story and that the story, in some people's opinion, sort of changed over time. The more he told it, the more it changed.
John Dehlin [00:15:19] Many people have issues with the credibility of the priesthood restoration. Specifically that there's no real evidence of when the Melchizedek priesthood was given and that many of the early church leaders for many years never even knew or talked about the Melchizedek priesthood. And that confuses people. And of course, Brigham Young's teachings about blood atonement and Adam God theory have caused many to struggle. And the Mountain Meadows massacre where many innocent men, women and children were, were massacred by members of the church. And then there was sort of a cover up that happened after that. In many people's opinion, these are the historical issues that trouble people most often.
John Dehlin [00:15:58] I just have one quick slide from our data which show that polygamy is one of the fastest rising issues. In other words, it's becoming more and more of an issue. And this has become. This is because people have known about polygamy for, you know, obviously over 100 years. But the polyandry and the young ages of some of these brides are things that people are only becoming aware of now. And to be honest, many members of the church that I work with were never taught that Joseph Smith actually practiced polygamy. They just kind of thought Brigham Young was the first. And so that causes a lot of people trouble.
John Dehlin [00:16:33] A quote from one of Our participants sort of sums up these historical issues. This respondent, who's a male in his 30s, wrote, it's not any one of these historical issues, but the accumulation of them, combined with the church's lack of addressing these concerns on their own, that's the problem. And that's accurate from what I've read. So those are the historical issues. As far as scientific issues go, some of the main ones are, first of all, the age of the Earth.
John Dehlin [00:16:59] You know, the Doctrine and Covenants says that the earth is 6,000 years old, give or take. That's a problem for people. When scientists tell us that the Earth is billions of years old, when people start thinking about Adam and Eve existing 6,000 years ago, they look at anthropology and history and find that man has been on the Earth much longer than 6,000 years. And so they don't know how to reconcile that. They also don't know how to reconcile this teaching traditionally in the Church, that there's been no death. There was no death, animal, plant, or human, before the fall of Adam and Eve. Yet geological records show that men, animals and plants have been living and dying for, again, billions of years.
John Dehlin [00:17:41] This doesn't quite jive with the Adam and Eve story and a literal interpretation of the Bible, Noah's Ark story and the global flood, you know, how did he get all the animals on the boat? Two of every kind for all the different species that we have across the world? And then where did all the water come from that could fill up the whole Earth?
John Dehlin [00:18:00] And how could all these species spread across all the continents in the past 6,000 years? This just doesn't make sense to people who understand science if, again, you take a literal interpretation of Noah's story. Many people believe in evolution these days.
John Dehlin [00:18:16] Even biology professors at BYU are strong believers and supporters of evolution. This is a problem to traditional Mormons, especially those who believe in the teachings of Joe Jar McConkie, others. And then Book of Mormon has come under a lot of scientific scrutiny as of late.
John Dehlin [00:18:31] They've done DNA tests of Native Americans and have found that Native Americans don't have what we would surmise to be sort of Middle Eastern or Israeli DNA. But their DNA, the majority of them, the vast majority of them, their DNA ties directly to Asia.
John Dehlin [00:18:52] And that doesn't make sense for people who sort of equated, you know, Lamanites with Latin Americans or Native Americans. Just doesn't make sense for many. Now, again, there are explanations for this, but we'll address those hopefully in future episodes, or we'll refer you to Apologetic resources to try and explain. Another big issue that scientists have found with the Book of Mormon are what are called anachronisms. And the two most common examples are horses that are found in the Book of Mormon and steel that's found in the Book of Mormon. Neither of these things existed in the Americas, sort of, you know, during the time that Lehi and Nephi came over, horses and steel were developed, you know, sort of after the Conquistadors horses arrived when the Conquistadors brought them in the 1415, 1600s to America.
John Dehlin [00:19:45] So there weren't any horses during the time that Native Americans were living in the Americas. And as far as steel goes, steel was developed again after, you know, much after the time that Nephi or Mormon or any of those characters or figures in the Book of Mormon would have been engaging in wars. And people ask, and if there were steel or swords or shields, why haven't we found any? And archaeologists, anthropologists really haven't found helmets or shields or swords of any type of metal or steel specifically. And so it doesn't make sense for many. And then finally, some people sort of dismiss the Book of Mormon as a fictional work that they borrowed from the Bible, that they borrowed from other sources, like a book called the View of the Hebrews or sort of common stories that were being told during the time of Joseph Smith's era, or even sermons that were given by local religious leaders.
John Dehlin [00:20:43] And so they come to view the Book of Mormon more as a fictional work than as a real record of history. And then finally, as I mentioned before, Egyptologists have studied the papyrus that supposedly the Book of Mormon was based on, and they found it to be what's referred to as a common funerary text or funeral sort of writings. And. And it has, according to these Egyptologists, nothing really to do with the text that Joseph Smith produced. So these are some of the scientific issues as far as doctrinal or theological issues. People leave the church often because they lose their belief in God or Christ.
John Dehlin [00:21:18] Many, when they start reading the scriptures, they find the scriptures to be inconsistent or even mean or barbaric, and they start to not view the scriptures as credible or divine or even worthwhile. Many lose the belief in the idea of a one true church. They kind of think there's billions of people on the earth and only 5 million active Mormons.
John Dehlin [00:21:40] How can this be the one true Church when 99.995% of the world's population doesn't even really know about Mormonism? How can that be? How could God be That inefficient. Why does it have to be just one true church?
John Dehlin [00:21:54] Many lose belief in the need for exclusive saving ordinances or proxy work for the dead. They feel like that's kind of an inefficient model to get people back to heaven. Why do you need these ordinances to be able to go back and live with your heavenly father or mother. Many lose faith in the Book of Mormon and its narratives about a dark skin being a curse. They just feel like that's a racist idea and there's no God that they want to believe in that would curse people with dark skin for their wickedness. Because. Because many believe dark skin is beautiful and good and so forth.
John Dehlin [00:22:23] And many lose faith in their church leaders and in prophetic authority and credibility. They just see many sort of view our church prophets as being behind the times on significant events like the civil rights movement, you know, gay rights, women's rights, science, etc. And they basically say these leaders are sort of lagging, not leading us in prophetic ways.
John Dehlin [00:22:48] There are many socio political and cultural issues that cause people to leave the church. Many are concerned with the unequal or unsatisfactory treatment of women and minorities in the church. Specifically that women aren't allowed to engage in many of the activities that men are and that there's unfair treatment. Many are bothered by the church's stance on homosexuals and you know, the opposition of same sex marriage like with Proposition 8. That's become a huge trending issue.
John Dehlin [00:23:15] Some are bothered by the excessive political conservatism, conservatism in the church. Many equate the church with Russ Limbaugh and Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. And they don't feel comfortable expressing more liberal political views, at least in the United States, in the quorum meetings or in Sunday school, etc. Many are bothered by the church's lack of financial transparency and specifically their decision to build a multi billion dollar mall. Some feel like that's not what Christ would do with the money if he had it. He would instead give it to the poor. And many are bothered by what they perceive as a culture of control and conformity, of anti intellectualism, anti science and of perfectionism that makes many people feel guilty and sad.
John Dehlin [00:23:59] Finally. Oh, as I mentioned before, one of the trending issues that we found in addition to polygamy is the treatment of homosexuality. And this makes sense because as older members of the church who are less open and tolerant about the LGBT community as they die off, and as the younger generation comes, the younger generation is Just more accepting and loving of lgbt, gay, lesbian, transgender, bisexual individuals. And so this is an issue that will continue to play plague the church.
John Dehlin [00:24:29] And I think that's manifested by the fact that the church has released this new website called MormonsEngaged.org, where they're trying to show more empathy and love and support for gays and lesbians, which we all see is a very good thing. Finally, the final area that caused many people to leave the church are spiritual issues.
John Dehlin [00:24:48] Some people feel like they never received the spiritual witness that they were promised in the first place after sincere multiple attempts. This is in the minority because I think most feel like they had a testimony, but there's a few that feel like they never got the witness, how hard they tried. Some begin to question or reinterpret their past spiritual experiences and wonder if they were just manipulated emotionally, whether they just wanted to believe and so they sort of emotionally convinced themselves or they just sort of say, I felt emotional things. But that's not necessarily the spirit talking.
John Dehlin [00:25:20] Many leave because they don't feel spiritually edified in their church participation, and it's just not edifying to them anymore. Many feel burned out, don't feel like they're good enough. Many feel bored or uninspired in their church activities or participation. And some actually report that they feel spiritually inspired to leave the church and go on to other spiritual endeavors. So those are the five main issues. If we had a summarize, the issues that seem most highly correlated and most common, it's Joseph Smith, church history, the church's doctrine and theology, and the Book of Mormon. Issues with the Book of Mormon that are sort of the four most highly correlated and problematic issues that are causing people to lose the church.
John Dehlin [00:26:02] Other trending issues include DNA in the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, first vision, the treatment of women, and science. So those are issues to sort of look out for in the future as growing in importance and significance. So this brings us to myth number five, the fact, the claim that these people left the church because they studied anti Mormon literature and were deceived or brought down because of anti Mormon literature. And it turns out from the people in this survey that in reality, it wasn't anti Mormon resources that they were consulting. It's usually primary sources that cause people to first doubt and question. So for example, the scriptures themselves often are the impetus for someone's doubt and questioning.
John Dehlin [00:26:46] So for example, they're in Doctrine and Covenants, Section 77, Verse 6, where it says the Earth is 6,000 years old, and they Start saying, well, that doesn't make sense. How could the church be 6,000 years old? And that's when they start doubting and questioning. Or they're reading the Book of Mormon and they read about horses and steel, and they read Gun Germs and Steady Steel by Jared diamond and they go, wow, how in the world was there horses and steels in the Book of Mormon that wasn't brought until later. And that becomes a problem. Or they'll read Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132. And if you've ever, if you haven't really read it before, you ought to read it.
John Dehlin [00:27:17] It's very difficult and challenging. And it basically calls polygamy, in some people's interpretation, the new and everlasting covenant. And that becomes very difficult when you hear, for example, Gordon B. Haynes Hinckley saying on Larry King Live that polygamy is no longer doctrinal.
John Dehlin [00:27:33] People get confused by that because it appears to be doctrine, because it's in Doctrine and Covenant, Section 132. And this is the type of thing that causes often, most often people to doubt and question. Other sources that are primary that cause people to doubt and question include, you know, journals of early church leaders are just reading about these journals and they start having questions and. And then church publications themselves. Things like old church newspapers like the Times and Seasons, the Journal of Discourses, speeches that Brigham Young and others gave that are published by the church. The Ensign has many things that cause people to doubt and question.
John Dehlin [00:28:08] Even going up to familysearch.org can be problematic. And many general authority talks that have been published by the church cause people to doubt and question. So these are all sort of primary sources that are very difficult. And this is most often where people being doubting and questioning not quote anti Mormon sources. One respondent in our survey, just to sort of summarize this point, said, I never visited anti Mormon sites, but rather sites maintained by members. With time, I simply could not accept the church's official position on many historical issues.
How the Disaffection Process Actually Unfolds
John Dehlin [00:28:43] So if these five reasons aren't the reasons why people are disaffected, how does disaffection happen? Well, well, I've got this little visual that I'm going to show you again. Go to YouTube.com mormonstories or mormonstories.org to view this presentation in video format. But it's basically a circle that sort of discusses the cycle of disaffection and disaffiliation. And it begins when active members hear about troubling elements of church history, theology and culture. Sometimes it comes from within them. But sometimes they hear it from other sources, and it can come from many different types of sources. They can just go to Google, and Google can be a big problem in terms of being the impetus for somebody.
John Dehlin [00:29:25] They can just be studying, preparing, like me for a seminary lesson or a gospel doctrine lesson, and they start Googling Joseph Smith or polygamy or faith, and they can find links on the Internet that they can go to that are problematic. But it often again starts with their own doubts and questions. Questions or traumatic life events. Maybe they're watching south park and they see the issue or the episode called all about the Mormons where it shows Joseph Smith, you know, translating the Book of Mormon with his face in the hat. And that can be a place. Maybe they watched Larry King and Gordon B. Hinckley where he said polygamy was not doctrinal.
John Dehlin [00:30:01] That can be a problem. Maybe they read an article in Newsweek about the Mormons and they learn things about the church that they didn't realize before from external sources. Maybe they watched the PBS video called the Mormons that was very disturbing for many as they learned for the first time difficult issues there. Maybe they went to New York and watched the Broadway musical the Book of Mormon, which introduces many issues or doubts or questions there. Maybe they picked up a book like no Man Knows My History, which was written by David O. McKay's niece, and that became an issue for them, or the journal Discourses, or as I said, even just studying the scriptures.
John Dehlin [00:30:40] They stumble on these things, and so they've got these doubts and questions and they stumble upon this information for the first time and they don't know what to do with it. They kind of wonder, is this a lie? Is this deceiving? Is this true? Could this be true? What about these doubts that I'm having? And they go and they start searching for information to refute what they've learned. And this is where apologetic issues within Mormonism really raise their head. If you go to fairlds.org or the DLA Maxwell Institute, there are these long, categorical lists of issues and responses to difficult issues that people can access.
John Dehlin [00:31:23] So again, you go to fairlds.org, you click on their topical guide, and you see a list of like 200 of the largest issues that face most Mormons. And while there are lots of good people at fair, fair's heart is in the right place and they do a lot of good work. And I will say that right now up front, FAIR and the Maxwell Institute do a lot of high quality work. And they have a lot of very good people doing what they're doing.
John Dehlin [00:31:50] My understanding of these respondents is that many of our respondents probably most find that this information, apologetic information, is often more damaging than helpful. A few of the problems with, you know, Mormon of Public and FAIR and the Maxwell Institute, problem number one is when they go to these sites and they start wondering if these doubts are sort of anti Mormon lies. The first thing they do is they find out that these problems are actually factual or credible because they're on the list and they're talked about as credible issues. So this number one legitimizes many of the problems that these people sort of wondered about.
John Dehlin [00:32:28] Now this is an unavoidable problem. The second problem is that when they stumble onto these sites, they can easily start looking up other problems. So they become introduced to additional problems when they may have only come to these websites with one or two. That again, is an unavoidable problem if you're going to try and address all the difficult issues faced within Mormonism. The third problem with these apologetic resources are that many find the answers provided by FAIR and the Maxwell Institute to be unsatisfying.
John Dehlin [00:32:58] I'm not sure if this is avoidable or not. I believe that there are some satisfying answers to some of the problems, but I believe that there's a lot of bad and faulty answers that are also given that just really aren't effective. They just don't work for the people, people who are struggling. I don't know if this is avoidable or not. But finally, one of the biggest reported problems with the Mormon apologetic resources is that many find the tone and the tactics used by LDS apologists to be unchristlike.
Gaps in Church Resources for Doubting Members
John Dehlin [00:33:28] I definitely believe that this is an avoidable problem, and I know that it's something that FAIR and the Maxwell Institute are currently working on to try and fix. But you see it very clearly in the quotes by the respondents to our survey. So I'll just read to you a few of their responses.
John Dehlin [00:33:47] As I studied church history and uncovered many controversial historical evidence, I would frequent LDS apologetic sites for answers like FARMS and the Maxwell Institute and FAIR and shields. I soon discovered these sites rarely dealt with the controversial evidences, but rather often skirted or obfuscated the issues and frequently reported resorted to personal attacks on the individuals who were publishing historical information.
John Dehlin [00:34:14] So this is reported by the people who had these experiences who have left the Church. This is what they experienced going to apologetic websites. Another wrote, it was the apologetic attempts by FAIR that helped convince me that the Church doesn't have good explanation for its side. Another wrote, I watched FARMS and Fair apologists treat people horribly. For example, one apologist used to lurk on the Recovery for Mormonism website so that he took quotes from the people posting there in order to humiliate them. This coupled with the way apologists tend to treat critics with ad hocs was the linchpin. I would encourage him them to do something about the apologists.
John Dehlin [00:35:00] I think they are the worst aspect of the current church. Now it may not be fair to use the term ad hominem attacks. I know the term has been debated, but it is many people's perception that LDS Mormon apologists too often attack the messengers and blame the victims instead of providing really credible answers in a Christlike way.
John Dehlin [00:35:25] Others wrote on honesty, please stop leaving it to the apologetics. They are terrible and are doing more damage than good to people's testimonies with their poor answers, for example the Book of Abraham. Another wrote, please stop the ridiculous apologetics. Their circular reasonable fallacies do more harm than good. Finally one wrote fair and their answers have done more to destroy their testimonies than any anti Mormon sources can could. For many members, the fact that the LDS Church is officially silent on many of these problems is a testament in and itself that the Church does not have any answer and are hiding behind unofficial apologists like FAIR for plausible deniability.
John Dehlin [00:36:08] And once the members go to these apologetic websites, they find out that all this doubt and information and trouble that they were having is actually accurate. And that is a huge shock. And they sometimes ask themselves, why am I learning this stuff for the first time at age 30 or 35 or 45 or 50? I should have learned this stuff in seminary or in institute or in Sunday school, but I didn't. And so that leaves feeling like they're betrayed, feeling like the Church hid the truth from them. One really important quote from our respondents was I defended the Church to associates who brought up some historical issues.
John Dehlin [00:36:46] When I did my own research, I found that they were true. My issue wasn't that they were true, but that my whole life I was never told about them. I felt betrayed by the Church. Another wrote, I feel like I cannot trust the General on any spiritual issues because they cannot even be honest and open about our past.
John Dehlin [00:37:08] And so these active members in the this cycle feel troubled. But the biggest problem often isn't the issue, it's the fact that they feel betrayed. They feel like the Church has lied to them, it's misled them and they start wondering if they can trust the church again. And so they go to family members and friends and they share their concerns. And because people's faith is precious to them, because these issues can be perceived as attacking or disrespectful, the active members of the church can often treat their family and friends who are doubting or questioning very harshly. It can make them feel sad or guilty or shamed for even learning or questioning or doubting or asking these questions.
John Dehlin [00:37:53] And so oftentimes the non questioning, believing church members, the family and friends, start distancing themselves emotionally and physically from the active member who's questioning. And that becomes even more problematic and exacerbates the problem. One of our respondents wrote, the church needs to be honest with its history and contradictions. Instead, they make us who have discovered the complicating facts look like the evil ones. I am shunned by my family. They think I am a liar and a deceiver when it is the church and general authorities who have deceived us.
John Dehlin [00:38:32] So this is a major factor that, you know, some of you may be bothered when ex Mormons refer to the church as a cult, but this is a major factor that leads ex Mormons to call the church a cult. It's a natural reaction for members to feel scared and angry and to want to distance themselves, not Christ like, and it doesn't feel open and loving. And so it becomes a real problem when people are treated meanly or unkindly by church members, by family, by friends, simply for asking difficult questions and trying to find answers. And so they feel even more betrayed over these issues, which are magnified by anger at the loss of familial relationships.
John Dehlin [00:39:19] And so things sort of just split, spiraling and getting worse. And so by the time that they have had these problems, found out that they were legitimate, had them validated, found that the apologetic websites didn't provide satisfactory answers, wondered why the church lied to them or kept these things from them or didn't speak openly about them. And then they tried to talk to family and friends who were believers and were ostracized. They become disaffected.
John Dehlin [00:39:47] They, they become often angry and frustrated and sad. And then they start sharing their pain and anger with other people. And then, you know, oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes, and then the cycle can, can repeat. So, you know, one respondent wrote, stop hurting marriages by driving a wedge between spouses. On this issue, I've gone through hell and back and nearly divorced. We desperately need a dream General Conference address telling spouses to not divorce an otherwise good spouse. Over non belief. I have several friends who have been divorced over primarily this issue, and my own marriage is still on the rocks due to it, even though I am fully active.
John Dehlin [00:40:27] And for me, this is one of the most heartbreaking aspects of this whole dilemma is that in many cases really good marriages and really good families become torn apart, even leading to divorce because one of the members of the couple can't believe or doesn't believe or struggles. The other doesn't understand and it leads to a divorce. And I believe that that's tragic. One other respondent wrote, tell your bishops and leaders to tell their members to not divorce their spouse when they leave the LDS Church. My husband was advised by his bishop to divorce me. We had 10 children. It was awful. But the church that says families are the most important, you should be ashamed of yourselves.
John Dehlin [00:41:10] So this has been a really quick overview of many of the difficulties that cause people to question and leave the church. But let's get to the most important part. How can we who are active members of the church who are believing members of the church? How can we help those who are struggling? Well, I'm going to start by using the example of what's not helpful and and not to pick on Brigham Young because he did many amazing things and good things, but he gave a quote in the journal Discourses on what he called apostates. And he said, if there is a despicable character on the face of the earth, it is an apostate from this church.
How to Support Those Who Are Struggling or Have Left
John Dehlin [00:41:46] He is a traitor who has deceived his best friends, betrayed his trust, and forfeited every principle of honor that God placed within him. They are disgraced in their own eyes. There is not much honesty within them. They have forfeited their heaven, sold their birthright, and betrayed their friends.
John Dehlin [00:42:04] This is not helpful. This type of response is not helpful to show empathy with those who are believers, who fear and disparage those who question the doubt. It's very easy to see these people who are doubting or have left the church as doubt dark or as sinful, as having lost the Spirit, as lost in their lives. It's easy to see them as dishonest or as breaking their covenants. It's easy to see them as threatening and dangerous or as deceived by Satan. I totally understand why you would feel that way. I used to feel that way when people who had left the church came to me.
John Dehlin [00:42:41] But that is often a matter of perspective and in many cases, maybe most cases, it's flat out wrong. Instead, these people most often see themselves as seeking the truth at any cost. If you think about some of the primary songs that we've been taught, do what is right, let the consequence follow. Oh, say what is truth? Tis the fairest gem. In many cases. These people are following their integrity and their honesty, and they're seeking truth, which is very much a Mormon value. And these people see themselves as acting bravely and with integrity because they sacrifice a great deal, including their own values, you know, that they have their own identity, their own security.
John Dehlin [00:43:26] There's a lot at stake for coming clean and openly discussing these issues. And it takes someone who's very brave and courageous to do it. And so then see that they see themselves as acting with integrity. They see themselves as being more honest than they probably ever been in their lives with their loved ones, with you, with everyone. And they see themselves as following the light as they seek truth, not as following darkness. And many of them, frankly, consider themselves to be very happy now, not dark and sad. I would say even most consider themselves to be happier where they end up than where they were before now.
John Dehlin [00:44:00] That's their perspective. But it should be honored, just like yours should be honored, honored. And so these things seem like very Mormon values that we should respect. And so what should we not do in reaction to these people who are challenged, who our loved ones who are struggling? We shouldn't assume anything, okay? We shouldn't fall prey to any of these stereotypes or myths that they just want to sin, that they've been offended, that they're lazy, that they never had a testimony, that they've been spending too much time on anti Mormon literature. I hope I did a decent case of showing you that in many cases those are myths that are not true.
John Dehlin [00:44:37] We shouldn't preach to them or lecture them or give them guilt trips. Why? Psychologically, it creates resistance. You preach at them and lecture them and seek to scold them versus understand them. You just push them in the other direction. It just doesn't work. It's ineffective, and it's important, insulting, and hurtful.
John Dehlin [00:44:57] You should resist the tendency to reduce the issues to simply praying and reading the scriptures and say, hey, just start praying and reading the scriptures again. It'll make it better. That's one of the problems. Oftentimes this comes from reading the Scriptures. And the more they read the scriptures, the more angry and frustrated and confused they feel. And when they pray and try and get answers, oftentimes the answers don't come. And so telling them to pray and read the scriptures and just isn't helpful for many of these people and really oversimplifies the difficulty of the issues that they're facing.
John Dehlin [00:45:29] Definitely don't refer them to bad apologetic sources. Now, I'm not saying that all LDS apologetic sources are bad, but if you just say go to FAIR and go to the Maxwell Institute and that will solve problems, in many cases, it just causes more problems and just alienates them further. You should spend your time dealing with these issues and learning about them before you just push them off on other sources. Don't judge or fear them. They're still good people. They're still loving, honest people, kind people. They're still the people you've always loved. They're just going through a change in beliefs and in perspective and how they see the world.
John Dehlin [00:46:04] But they deserve not to be judged or feared. And whatever you do, do not avoid and ostracize them. To try and stay away from them, to keep them away from you, you and your family, to distance yourself from them, to shame them, to fear them. That is the most awful and most unchristlike thing you could possibly do in this situation. I'm going to read from the Book of Mormon in the Book of Mormon, chapter 7, verse 45 through 47, because Mormon gives us a fabulous template for how we should respond with charity to people who are struggling in their faith. And it says, and charity suffereth long, and is kind, and envieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, and endureth all things.
John Dehlin [00:47:05] Wherefore, my beloved brother brethren, if ye have not charity, ye are nothing, for charity never faileth. Wherefore Cleave unto charity, which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail. But charity is the pure love of Christ, and it endureth for ever. And whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.
John Dehlin [00:47:32] And so if we sort of extrapolate this beautiful three verse set from Mormon in the Book of Mormon, how can we help those who have left the Church? Number one, be kind to them for a long time. That's what long suffering means. Even when it's uncomfortable and difficult, listen to them always to be kind, love them unconditionally. Not love them and be kind to them. If they do what you think you should should do, if they follow what you think is right, love them no matter what they decide about the Church, and no matter what they believe eliminate your agendas for them. They're not objects, they are their own souls with free agency who need to follow their own path.
John Dehlin [00:48:15] So don't have your desires for what they need to do as what motivates you and definitely don't try and reconvert them or call them to repentance. That almost always backfires and makes things worse and shows that you don't love them unconditionally.
John Dehlin [00:48:30] Do the work yourself. Number four to understand where they are coming from. As it says, we believe in the Church that we seeketh all good things, that we believe in truth wherever it comes from. So do the Find out what's true about their concerns. It turns out that 99% of their issues are factual have factual problems and so you should do the work to understand them because you can't love them and have empathy with them until you understand their concerns. Respect and honor their choices. Number five Let them decide what to do with their life and not just tolerate, but respect and honor the decisions that they make and work with church leaders.
John Dehlin [00:49:11] Number six Actively go to your bishop, go to your Elders Quorum President, Relief Society President, go to your Stake President and work with them to help them become more informed and empathetic. Give presentations in Elders Quorum and Sunday School about these issues. Share these resources with others so that we as a church membership can become more informed about the difficult issues and about how not to deal with these people and how we can more effectively deal with them. And remember most of all that without charity ye are nothing that can't be emphasized enough. If I had to summarize everything that I've just said, if there's only one slide that you see or remember from this entire presentation, it's love them, love them, love them.
Recommended Resources and Closing Thoughts
John Dehlin [00:50:01] So let's talk quickly about some resources as we conclude that you can use to become more informed. Unfortunately, there are no official church books, books or websites at this time that address these issues. It's awesome that the church created the MormonsEngage.org website. Someday I hope the Church creates the equivalent to mormonsandapostates.org or mormons and exmormons.org or mormons and you know, thedisaffected.org where it will address specifically these difficult issues, provide credible answers, clear things up, and help you know how to deal with these people. Hopefully that will come someday soon. Until it does, these are some resources that I recommend. There are several books that are written by faithful members.
John Dehlin [00:50:46] You know, former patriarchs, former Stake presidents, former bishops, current bishops, active members of the church that outline the most difficult issues. A few include Joseph Smith, Rough Stone Rolling by Patriarch and Stake President Richard Bushman by the Hand of Mormon by Bishop Terrell Givens the Mormon People by Matthew Bowman. All of these books discuss the difficult issues in credible ways. There are also books written by skeptics that are critical of the church, but they're very credible and factual. They're not perfect, but they do a good job of relaying the information in ways to help understand the mindset of the disaffected. These books would include an insult Insider's View of Mormon Origins by Grant Palmer, no Man Knows My History, the Life of Joseph Smith by Fawn Brodie and Losing a Lost Tribe by Simon Sotherton, which talks about Native Americans, DNA and the Mormon Church.
John Dehlin [00:51:38] There are also other several classic books that just everyone should read if they want to become a student of David O. McKay and the rise of Modern Mormonism by Greg Prince the Angel and the Beehive by Armand Moss in Adventures of a Church's Historian by Leonard Arrington. Those are books that I think every Mormon who wants to understand these issues should read. Farrelds.org and the Maxwell Institute both provide a lot of really good information in spite of the difficult things I said. I know that they're working to improve the information that they provide and to change their tactics somewhat, so I'm going to recommend them as great resources.
John Dehlin [00:52:14] Another website that is also excellent is more mormonthink.com it's definitely managed and run by skeptics or critics or non believers in the church, but they work really hard to outline both. They work really hard to present only factual information from primary sources. They may lay out the difficulties and the information and the arguments that the critics offer, but they also work really hard to also represent the apologetic positions as well. And again, it's a critical site that is sort of non believing, but it's a valuable resource of information. One of the most comprehensive on the Internet that I've been able to find. Stalethes.com is a website that I helped create with Brian Johnston and others.
John Dehlin [00:53:04] It's an excellent resource. It has both articles to help you stay in the church after you've had a crisis of faith. There's an article on there called how to Stay in the Church after a Crisis of Faith which has helped tens of thousands of people stay in the church. There's a forum on there where you can go and ask questions to people who are still in the church. If you're trying to figure out a way to stay. Can't recommend that enough. There are several podcasts out there that discuss these difficult issues that try and do it from both a faithful and a critical perspective. My podcast, Mormon Sounds Stories, has been viewed by lots of people and is a popular site for learning about these difficult issues from both a faithful and a critical perspective.
John Dehlin [00:53:45] Another podcast called Mormon Expression does quality work. It is a more critical podcast that many would see as antagonistic towards the church, but it still does a lot of good work and I think it's worth getting to know.
John Dehlin [00:54:03] A couple other podcasts that I sponsor through the Open Stories foundation includes Mormon Matters run by Dan Witherspoon that basically tries to discuss difficult issues within Mormonism in a faithful way. It's one of the best resources in the world about faithful Mormonism and a new podcast that we've released called A Thoughtful Faith interviews believing Mormons about modeling a more advanced and sophisticated faith that's informed by information, but it's also faithful. So if you want role models of people who know all the difficult issues but still believe, go to Mormon Matters. Go to A Thoughtful faith. Go to Mormon Stories and you'll find them there. Another excellent new resource we have is called Mormon Stories Sunday School or Engaging Gospel Doctrine.
John Dehlin [00:54:48] It's a podcast run by Jared Anderson and it attempts to model a more thoughtful, sophisticated approach to studying the scriptures, studying church doctrine and theology while being fully knowledgeable and aware of the many difficult issues. It's an excellent resource. I highly recommend it. There are also several blogs out there. ByCommonConsent.com is an excellent, thoughtful, faithful blog that I Recommend, as is feministmormonhousewives.org which deals with women's issues and feminist issues, but also from a faithful perspective. So to conclude, ask yourself. You may be asking yourself what should I do now?
John Dehlin [00:55:25] I've got a loved one, a husband, a wife, a child, a family member, a friend that's no longer believing or is leaving the church or they've left the church. What should I do? Here's what I recommend to you. Number one, call your loved one and set up a time to talk or a regular time to talk and then meet with them and listen.
John Dehlin [00:55:47] Listen, listen, listen and love them. Love them and listen sincerely and genuinely with an open mind and an open to understand where they're coming from. Once you've done that, start studying, become more informed about the difficult issues. Please do yourself a favor. Make your faith deeper and richer and learn all these difficult issues so that they can never bother or trouble you and so that you can understand where your loved one is coming from.
John Dehlin [00:56:18] Please share this if you like this audio visual presentation or this audio presentation, this PowerPoint presentation, please share it with other family members, friends, ward members, and church leaders. You can give them the PowerPoint. You can point them to the YouTube presentation or the podcast audio, or just sit down and talk with them about it. Whatever you have to do, please get the word out that these are difficult issues, that we're handling it wrong. And there are better ways to handle these issues. And remember, most of all, have faith in your Heavenly Father and mother that all things are going to work out in the end.
John Dehlin [00:56:55] That you don't have to operate from a place of fear or anger or hatred or suspicion. You can operate from a place of faith and and hope and love, knowing that this is all part of God's eternal plan and that somehow, someday this is all going to work out. That people may come back to the church later or in the afterlife. Somehow it's going to be worked out. But just trust in your in your heavenly parents that things are going to be okay. Don't operate from a place of fear. Remember that if you have charity, ye are nothing if you have not charity. And so most of all operate from a charitable perspective.
John Dehlin [00:57:32] Thank you so much for listening to this presentation today. Again, you can check it out at MormonStories.org or WhyMormonsQuestion.org or YouTube.com MormonStories you can learn more about all these information, download the PowerPoint, print it out, share it with others, and please feel free to email us@mormonstoriesmail.com if you have any questions or need any help. Thank you so much for listening and I appreciate your time and hope you share this with others. Take care.
John Dehlin [00:58:03] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Music today was provided by the Saber Rattlers. Check them out@sabre-rattlers.com the Mormon Stories logo was generously donated by StudioCase.com thanks for listening.
John Dehlin [00:58:19] Come come ye saints no tom toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better Father far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo hearts will swell oh all is well all is well Hell why should we mourn I think our lot is hard t not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now sh the fight Gird up your lo fresh courage take our God will never us for sake soon we'll have tale to tell?
John Dehlin [01:00:03] Oh, all is well, all is well oh, all is well all is well, Sam. And should we die before our journey is through happy days? All is well? We that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain I will make this chorus well. Oh, all is well, all is well all is well I All is well, all is well oh, is well, All is well Ram.
Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.
I created this video/presentation for two reasons:
- To dispel any misunderstandings about why people leave the church (and what happens to them when they do).
- I’ve been wanting to update my “Why people leave the LDS church” youtube video for some time to include the results from the “Why Mormons Question” survey.
Please watch and provide feedback if you can…and then share w/ family, friends, and church members/leaders who lack understanding or empathy.
Powerpoint presentation can be found here.
100 Responses
John…I am so appreciative of your work. I love the way the way that you present things as non-biased and admitting things that are difficult to accept and embrace. As I continue to navigate through my own issues and try and reconcile the doubts and fears I have, God bless you for your efforts. Many years ago, I used to think we were supposed to leave the “99” and go after the “1” but now there are “1’s” everywhere… there probably were all along, they were just silent sufferers. Honesty with oneself has to be step number one and I’m very thankful for this resource the the other resources you reference. Thank you.
I agree. Thanks so much John.
John,
That was very well done. Thank you so much for taking time to do it. I appreciate you being willing to continue to reach out and help foster empathy and understanding for those of us who may never find ourselves able to reconcile our faith as you have. Perhaps your belief will make you seem more credible as a representative to those who have not experienced a faith crisis and who remain critical and skeptical of anyone who has. It would be so nice to one day reach a point where genuine respect and civility can be felt regardless of which side of the fence any of us find ourselves on. Thanks again.
I feel there is a desperate need to understand members who go through a faith crisis and my family is a good example of why. I have four children all married in the temple, which means I also have three daughters-in-law and a son-in-law. Some have decided to stay in the church and love it, and some have decided that even though they want to stay, they can’t knowing what they now know. Our family has remained close through the whole drama, but how the siblings and parents of the other families have reacted has made all the difference in how those families have coped.
I wish every member could watch this presentation.
I think you did a great job of updating John. One of the best and most useful MO presentations out there. kudos
Thank you for this very informative, organized, useful and thoughtful resource. I am very impressed with your work. And I am grateful to have this and other resources suggested offered to me. I still hesitate to share with some of my family because they don’t know most of these issues and I don’t want the information being given to them from me. A few of my loved ones have never heard of polyandry, DNA and native Americans, peep stones, Book of Abraham problems, etc. I feel conflicted because I want them to be informed and I really want to be understood, but I also don’t want to disrupt their faith. If this information came a from neutral source instead of me would it be better for them?
Anissa,
I feel the same way. I struggle when talking to family members who are quick to judge me for where I am, most of whom are completely oblivious to the things that got me here in the first place. I always hope that they will run into these items from someone besides me so that I don’t have to take the blame for what they find out. I want them to know that there are legitimate reasons I feel this way. They like to think I’ve lost the spirit. I yearn to be respected, but if I am the one always trying to point out the things they don’t know about they only further lose respect for me. So I stay silent for the most part to keep the peace-allowing them to judge and point fingers at me assuming there are no REAL reasons why people like me lose their faith in something they’d always been very strong in. But that chronic longing to be understood is a hard and painful thing to endure alone everyday.
Square peg,
I completely understand you. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I hope through this video or communication and time we can feel understood and validated by our loved ones. Good luck to you.
Seer stones were mentioned in this article of the Ensign:
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1997/01/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god?lang=eng&query=translation+process+book+mormon
The Prophet Joseph alone knew the full process, and he was deliberately reluctant to describe details. We take passing notice of the words of David Whitmer, Joseph Knight, and Martin Harris, who were observers, not translators. David Whitmer indicated that as the Prophet used the divine instrumentalities provided to help him, “the hieroglyphics would appear, and also the translation in the English language … in bright luminous letters.” Then Joseph would read the words to Oliver (quoted in James H. Hart, “About the Book of Mormon,” Deseret Evening News, 25 Mar. 1884, 2). Martin Harris related of the seer stone: “Sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin” (quoted in Edward Stevenson, “One of the Three Witnesses: Incidents in the Life of Martin Harris,” Latter-day Saints’ Millennial Star, 6 Feb. 1882, 86–87). Joseph Knight made similar observations (see Dean Jessee, “Joseph Knight’s Recollection of Early Mormon History,” BYU Studies 17 [Autumn 1976]: 35).
As we can see much is written about the translation process complete with a magical narrative. You can show them this article in the Ensign.
And how is it that these scribes knew that the sentence would appear? Did they themselves see it or was it told by Joseph?
I’m sorry if this is irrelevant to the point of the presentation, but as an outsider, I couldn’t help but notice that the quote about charity from the Book of Mormon is almost identical to 1 Corinthians 13 in the Bible. John didn’t mention it, but isn’t Bible plagiarism one of the issues people have with the authenticity of the Book of Mormon? Mark Twain commented that he found the book to be “…smooched from the New Testament and no credit given…” Why not just quote the original?
Both Books claim to be inspired of God, If that is the case then they would have many similarities. If God inspired the writers to write what they did then there would be phrases and teachings that are the same. Some ask why there is a a 2nd book then. And that is simple, because Back when the books were written the people lived on different continents. God wanted all of his children to know the path to him.
There are only two continents?
The Book of Mormon also teaches that there are many more lost sheep of the house of israel that Christ went to visit.
Oh, I think it’s “smouched”, not “smooched”, lol.
Although this presentation is good, I actually liked your first rendition of “Why people leave the LDS church” much better. I think the first was very direct and to the point, easy to understand and more objective. In this presentation you often say, “Some people have trouble with this, or many people don’t understand this.” Although you do state the truth of these issues, I saw it stated much more directly in the other presentation, and IIRC, you were active in the church at that point. Obviously, in light of your recent decision to return to the church, you attempt to be extra gentle about the “difficult” issues. The additional information provided in this video is certainly helpful though.
I know in your recent podcast you explain that you have returned and are happy with that decision. I think it would be enlightening and extremely interesting to hear how you specifically have dealt with these issues enough to stay with the church. What do you believe when you describe yourself as a believer? I know you have described yourself as happier in the church, and I think I understand what you mean by this. I am really more interested in how it is possible for you to believe when you know these diificult issues are indeed true and prove that the LDS church is not “the one true church” that it claims to be. Is it true enough for you? Is it too deeply connected to your heart to reject it all? Do you still believe some parts of Mormom doctrine enough to stay active? What parts survive for you? Do the facts not matter and your decision is more influenced by culture or family?
What I love about you is the fearlessness you have shown in publicizing and talking about these difficult issues. I think it is outrageous that members feel they must keep this information hidden due to the fear of being marked with the scarlet letter of excommunication. The Mormon church makes it nearly impossible to speak of the facts while being a member, one must either resign or be excommunicated. Of course, this makes people seeking or stating the truth seem less reliable, to put it mildly, to active members. You are the exception here!! I know you are under pressure from Mormon leaders, but here you are talking about the forbidden facts anyway. For that, I think people have been fascinated by and drawn to you, myself included. Please consider making clear how you found a way to believe in the organization of the LDS church, despite knowing the facts and the truth. Will they really care that much when you are already spreading facts they have tried so hard to keep out of members’ minds?
LB, I think you misunderstand John’s intended audience. He is not talking to or trying to answer your questions. He is talking to active believing Mormons to help them deal with their loved ones in a more charitable way. The softening of the presentation was a very prudent move and if it could be made even gentler John would have done so.
John, that was an excellent presentation about a very complex problem.
There is a better place where the Mormon Church inevitably must move to, but it will be a long, hard and painful journey getting there. Your work is a very important phase of that journey.
I wish there was a way that I could get my LDS family to watch your presentation, but sadly, almost everyone of them will stop watching the moment they feel uncomfortable. In most instances that will be with the title slide and if they aren’t uncomfortable with that they will when they see the slide on the slow down in church growth (most Mormons know the church is the fastest growing church in the world). Many Latter-day Saints are conditioned to block out anything that makes them feel uncomfortable or causes them to doubt.
I’d be really interested in suggestions from others about what may be the most effective ways to get other family members to view your presentation. Its tough at family gatherings where there is an unwritten law that discussion of difficult church issues is forbidden. Is there a way it can be linked to from an LDS wesite? Is there a sympathetic general authority with the courage and integrity to endorse it?
I hope Dehlin is part of a catalyst that begins a Mormon reformation. It would be great if this slideshow was presented in General Conference or even a Sunday School class for all to see a and discuss openly, without fear of retribution. It is this type of honesty the members should receive from their leadership and each other.
Well done Mr. Dehlin.
John, I thought your presentation was excellent and very very fair and balanced. I would love to have lunch sometime and talk about your views etc. I am a “cultural Mormon” —did the mission thing etc—lived in a Muslim country for years—visited 84 countries and have studied religion for many years. I have written many books and am now writing a book titled “My GOD can Beat up Your God” subtitle “Why Faith usually Trumps Fact”===I live in SLC half the year –used to live in Logan–went to USU.and would be glad to drive up to Logan sometime to meet with you….drop me a line if you have time. Mark O
Good question. “How can we help?” Charity means giving something to the poor. But, what is it that makes the faithless poor? What is lacking? I grew up in Utah Valley. I am an apostate. These are how my friends left the church: One used a shotgun. Another used a knife. Another walked in front of a car. Two used pistols. One used pills.
Why does my faithless head feel the true height of a bridge when something so falsifiable is believed by so many? I’m dying unelected and unsure. I feel abandoned and betrayed by the spirit of reason. Why is the only repayment of conditional love and charity an active membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? Is our God, creator of the infinite, really this boring and really this cruel?
James,
Your post made me hurt. I have experienced similar pain and anguish to see that people often feel that there is no point living if they can’t live up to all that is expected of them in a church so many believe makes them superior and the only ones with the absolute truths. They can never understand someone who would give that up. But they don’t even try half of the time to understand. I think a lot more of them think about it, but are so terrified of the SOCIAL ramifications of admitting that there may be a reason for people to leave that they do everything they can to bury those feelings. Those who stop believing for legitimate reasons offer suffer so much more than is known. It makes me sad. I agree that there should be a reward for those who are good just for the sake of being good. Respect and validation should not be withheld due to one’s differing belief systems. I do not believe that God is that cruel. I believe it is people who refuse to act Christlike towards those who are suffering. Christ would not exclude those of us who struggle to believe even though many believers hold that over people’s heads to try to guilt and manipulate them into “coming back to the fold”. Most of us wouldn’t feel lost if people would stop treating as if we are. I’m sorry that you and so many of us have to feel such a weight from this. It shouldn’t have to be this heavy.
John, you are the man! Words can’t express how appreciative I am for this presentation. Thanks so much
Cheers!
What I have always found amazing is how Mormons can leave their faith over history. I have never known a catholic or a protestant leave their faith over history. And I am sure that many protestants and Catholics have no idea of their history and if they found out about their history they would just give a shug. Why is it so important for Mormons? Also, Mormons have received a testimony of the book of mormon and have had countless spiritual experiences in the lds church with spiritual confirmations at their baptism or with priesthood blessings or by listening to talks and by being around each other at lds get-togethers etc.
How can all these spiritual experiences be chucked aside when something is learned about lds history that may not have been known before? Seems strange to me.
why me,
You may (I say may) have missed the whole point of the presentation.
John–as always you are too charitable. Not only did why me miss the point, he will continue to shake his head at (and ignorantly judge as inferior and misguided) those who leave.
Actually, John, I think that I understood it quite well. Members leave mainly over historical issue. They learn something about church history and begin to doubt. Finding no adequate answer from the church or from apologists they leave the faith.
And yet, all their spiritual experiences are forgotten or rationalized away over an historical issue. I have not found such problems in catholicsm or protestantism and yet,protestants and catholics know little about their own history but seem to have no problem with it once they do. So, why do mormons?
why me — people leave over historical issues because 1) the Church’s rallying cry is that it is the one and only true Church on the face of the planet, based on 2) historical and ancient events which people find out did not happen at all or did not happen as they are claimed in Church and 3) they discover in surveying humanity that these spiritual experiences (including dreams and visions) are had by people in all religions, “confirming” to them narratives, doctrines, and stories that contradict the ones from other religions or demonstrably didn’t occur. In other words, while a “spiritual witness” may draw us toward things that make us yearn to be better, they are not reliable indicators of real-world events — like whether or not the Book of Mormon is historical, whether there were golden plates, or whether our modern day scriptures are anything other than a remix of Biblical, masonic, and 19th century protestant ideas.
Another way to put this is, if you found out through historical research that a person in history has repeatedly and demonstrably mis-rerepresented themselves, would your trust in his extraordinary claims continue unabated? Reason would dictate otherwise, but then again, many are content renouncing the use of their reason in these matters.
No, people that leave the Church are usually not in denial of their spiritual experiences. They are reframing them to their proper role — not as indicators of literal truth, but as internal feelings that put us in tune with the core values that we already believe in.
why me,
“Historical reasons” was only the first of the five reasons outlined in the podcast, so your statement that “members leave mainly over historical issues” does suggest there might be more you could have assimilated from the presentation.
As for your not finding that Catholics or Protestants fall away from their religions based on newfound knowledge of less-than-complimentary parts of those faiths’ histories…I think either you don’t know many Catholics or Protestants, or (more likely) your personal experience isn’t representative of the experiences of the members of those faiths in general. Mormons certainly aren’t alone in finding it difficult to come to terms with distasteful historical events.
Because history is as central to Mormonism as the authority of the Bible is to Protestantism, or the authority of the Pope is to Catholicism.
And the spiritual experiences you speak of, are not as universal, or persuasive, as you may think.
Church history, for me, has never been that much of a problem. I’ve come to expect so little of humanity (after seeing our fallenness expressed so universally, not least in myself) that as long as Joseph Smith’s or Brigham Young’s moral character surpasses that of a Democrat Senator or Renaissance Pope, I figure they’re ahead of the curve, and I’ll take what I can get.
It’s the antiquity, or not, of the Book of Mormon — the keystone of our religion — that is the crux of the matter.
why me, do you not think that those in other faiths have “spiritual experiences” just as powerful as a Mormon does? I think you are either naive to this fact, or deliberately in denial for your self preservation purposes.
Those that strap bombs to their children and send them in as suicide victims — in the name of Allah. Not convinced of their faith’s truthiness?
“We” might have had extremely poignant spiritual witnesses…as you have apparently. I just think we’ve been a little more objective and open-minded about what they really are.
When you say “spritual expreriences”, I don’t believe you comprehend just how much assumption you’ve let slide of your consideration plate. Using feelings or burnings of bosom to verify the truth of our lives has been not only a bad way to perceive our reality, but an incredibly bad, inacurate, and damaging tool of discovery. There are people out there that have burned to the core thinking it was of God just before acts of the horrific are commited. And like someone else said, the Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Baptists, and JW’s all talk about this same feeing, this “spritual experience” verifying to them the truth of their religion. Are they all wrong?
The truth is these experiences come from deep in the brain, as I’ve left belief behind I still feel these “spiritual experiences” as I connect with my kids, take in a sunrise on top of Sardine on the mtn bike, and just about any plate at Fresco’s cafe. Now, if you apply a reasonable explanation, you’ll see that “spiritual experiences” are as far and wide as there are cultures and people, religions, and belief. Hell, there there with no belief.
Because, why me, when it becomes clear that you can have spiritual experiences based on things that have been proven demonstrably false or made up, such as the Book of Mormon, you realize that you can’t trust your spiritual experiences as implicitly as you thought. Either Joseph Smith is who he claimed to be or he isn’t. Either he was inspired and a prophet, or he isn’t. All the spiritual feelings in the world can’t change that.
Also, Mormons claim to be the ONLY true church on the face of the earth today. No other church makes such a bold claim in the same way. If Joseph Smith isn’t who he claimed to be, that calls into question his role as prophet. And the leadership of the church has deliberately misled and withheld information from its members. So the coverup of the history actually reveals that the leadership isn’t being “honest in its dealings” as they would have us to be. It all ties in together.
> What I have always found amazing is how Mormons can leave their faith over history.
> I have never known a catholic or a protestant leave their faith over history.
I joined as a convert in the 70s and I had very fond feelings for Catholics because we grew up very poor and Catholic nuns and priests were doing many charitable things for the poor.
But in the 70s I became LDS because at the time the Catholic church’s questionable history was a very big part of the LDS missionary message. The Salt Lake visitor center left a big impression on me with its paintings of the reformers like Martin Luther, and how they helped bring us out of a period of darkness and corruption.
The message that the history was important resonated with me, and it was followed by the story of an innocent farm boy chosen by God to free us from churches that drew near to God with their lips but their hearts were far from him.
Which makes it very hard for me to hear that while we were quick to point out problems with other church’s histories, we were being less than honest about our own very troubling past.
I think that the message about the reformation is also a protestant message and since I was raised catholic, I knew about the reformation from history. But it didn’t have much of an impact on me because I knew the catholic take on it. However, how many lutherans know that martin luther was anti-semitic? Not many. Or that he condoned polygamy? Not many. And why not?
The catholic church also claims to be the one true church. In fact, this is what mormons and catholics share: the belief that their church is the one true church.
One question: how does the lds church draw hearts away from god?
It doesn’t, necessarily. Only to the extent that it leads people to turn their back on truth, however manifested, does it lead hearts away from the god of truth.
It walks a fine line here.
WhyMe,
I’ve actually never met a Catholic who goes to church more than a couple times a year. We’re more “birthright” when it comes to our religion. Go figure…
ProundCatholic
I personally know a Catholic who left his faith over history.
Many catholics have left the church over the abuse scandal. Catholics are in a tight spot at the moment. But then, what church isn’t?
However, with Joseph Smith and the gold plates something extraordinary happened, so extraordinary that the 11 witnesses never denied their testimony. But what was that extraordinary happening that had such an effect on the people involved?
> But then, what church isn’t?
Seventh Day Adventists. They’re growing in America slowly, but booming in developing countries like India and Nigeria (including the Muslim areas), adding a million Indian converts a year.
They’ve done what Catholics and Jews had to do so long ago which I believe helped all three immensely: they had to admit they had historical issues and flaws, and apologize for them. And then they got back to basics: building schools and hospitals, and helping the poor.
And that’s what many of us who love the church and still have family in it want to see: transparency and honesty. Many thought the church would decline after it had to stop polygamy, but it thrived. Many thought it could not survive an admission that God changed his mind about black people, but it did.
There are so many Mormons like me, a faithful Bishop, who love the church but felt we couldn’t stay because of the lack of honesty and transparency that made us feel like we were part of the dishonesty.
What you said about Listen and Love “withou an agenda” makes all the difference. For me, balance comes from accepting and bringing peace to “it is what it is”. Listening within myself, loving myself, having an open mind and an open heart as I love and listen to another creates opportunity to be pleasantly surprised that it looks nothing like what I thought, and yet it is absolutely perfect for each of us to learn and grow. Finding peace within and breathing that out allows me to see the miracles as they are happening. Thank you for the gift you are in creating a safe place to grow.
Nice presentation John. In the end, in my opinion, you are trading your integrity for emotional security. It works for many people but not all, best of luck with your rediscovered faith. Also, thanks for paving the way.
A bit sneering, don’t you think?
JT,
If you would be so kind – please consider another set of initials so that my anonymity may not be confused with yours – or visa versa. And perhaps you might want to distance yourself from what I’ve written since sometime in 2010
https://www.mormonstories.org/250-251-grant-heather-hardy-book-of-mormon-scholarship/
Best,
JT
John,
Do you have any information about the number of Mormons whose primary reason for leaving the LDS faith was finding another faith tradition that was preferrable/ more convincing in their view?
Yeah….if I crunched the numbers…but my guess is that this number is quite low (as a percentage). Most become agnostic, atheist, or fall into the “none” category from what I remember.
Which would make sense since all faiths have a checkered history. I fail to see perfection anywhere when it comes to the history of any church.
“I fail to see perfection anywhere when it comes to the history of any church”
That is what we call a straw man fallacy. It is one thing when Church leaders get impatient or make errors in judgment. It is another thing entirely when those errors in judgment involve deception, adultery, and mis-representation…and when the resulting institutions and doctrines of the Church (e.g. plural marriage, the relief society, the temple endowment) are brought about to legitimize those “mistakes” and instill secrecy about them. Yes, history teaches a lot about what went on in Nauvoo and — more importantly — why.
From the institute manual:
https://www.lds.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-and-church-history-student-study-guide/the-church-in-nauvoo-illinois/doctrine-and-covenants-131-132-the-new-and-everlasting-covenant-of-marriage?lang=eng
Doctrine and Covenants 132:58–66—Plural Marriage
As shown in the verse summary for Doctrine and Covenants 132, verses 58–66 concern “laws governing the plurality of wives.” Through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord commanded the practice of plural marriage in the early days of the Church; in 1890, through President Wilford Woodruff, He ended that practice (Official Declaration 1). Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained:
“Plural marriage is not essential to salvation or exaltation. Nephi and his people were denied the power to have more than one wife and yet they could gain every blessing in eternity that the Lord ever offered to any people. In our day, the Lord summarized by revelation the whole doctrine of exaltation and predicated it upon the marriage of one man to one woman. (D. & C. 132:1–28.) Thereafter he added the principles relative to plurality of wives with the express stipulation that any such marriages would be valid only if authorized by the President of the Church. (D. & C. 132:7, 29–66.)
I think that the seminary teacher has much leeway in how plurality of wives is taught. What exactly is hidden?
Oh, sorry it is the seminary manual that I linked to.
why me–“exactly what is hidden”
Joseph Smith referred to polygamy as “the most holy and important doctrine ever revealed to man on earth”. The Historical Record, vol VI (1887,) p. 226
President Hinckley in the Larry King interview said, “I condemn it (polygamy), yes, as a practice, because I think it is not doctrinal.”
Hidden when considered important to hide it.
Great job, John. Thank you for your work addressing these issues.
Neal
P.S. http://www.whymormonsquestion.org seems to be down…
John,
Nice presentation. It seems that most of your analysis of the survey results involves calculating the percentages of people who expressed each particular sentiment, which is certainly useful and informative in and of itself. Have you considered doing a more advanced statistical analysis? Your snowball sample wouldn’t allow for generalization to any larger population, but there are some quick pattern-identification techniques that might more rigorously define the different groups of reasons you identified in your podcast, and might also identify additional groups and/or help tie particular groupings of reasons to particular demographic characteristics. Might be interesting…
Cool presentation. Just a minor quibble: Those nice verses about charity are from the book of Moroni, not Mormon.
Some members leave because they learn that a part of the translation occurred with Joseph’s head in a hat. And the claim is that the church is hiding this. However it was in the Ensign in the following article. Also mentioned were seer stones:
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng&query=translation+process+head+hat
Of course, some members have forgotten this or they have become convinced that the church has hidden it. But why?
Why me, for many things that are disturbing, like the Book of Abraham, there is a small mention in the Ensign somewhere, buried in a long article. But the mainstream impression given in our artwork and missionary lessons, etc., is of the prophet with the gold plates, like this one at the bottom of the first lesson of the Preach My Gospel handbook:
https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service/what-do-i-study-and-teach/lesson-1-the-message-of-the-restoration-of-the-gospel-of-jesus-christ?lang=eng
Because one shouldn’t have to go scouring through Ensigns. If it’s not in lesson manuals and in frank discussions, in art or general talks, one can fairly say they are being less than forthright. Just because something once escaped the editor’s eye in a church publication doesn’t mean it’s been well know.
Basic truths, like in business and other serious transactions, should be made know BEFORE a commitment is extracted. Do you really expect pre-eight year olds and investigators to search out that one Ensign.
THAT’s ridiculous. A better question is why isn’t the head-in-hat truth in lesson manuals and ubiquitous church art?
Same goes with other falsehoods and half-truths that are common LDS beliefs.
Greetings from Australia, John. The work you do is just tremendous and much appreciated by this long-time, less-active non-believer, who still nonetheless loves the Church and cares deeply about the future of Mormonism.
Must say that was pretty good. I took part in that particular survey and I’m pleased to see Dehlin captured 85-90% of the issues I agreed with on my survey remarks. My Eternal Companion is putting pressure on me to go to Tenn and visit my oldest son and his family this year. I’m sorta half tempted to insist my oldest son see this presentation as a requisite to my ever visiting his home again, esp since he ambushed me with that intervention 3 yrs ago, compared me to Korihor, accused me of praying to plants and advised my wife to divorce me. Hell, I wouldn’t think it silly to ask the rest of my family to see that presentation. It was very well done.
I was a very devote member of the Church, temple marriage, RM, yet for over 30 years I never felt right about things like polygamy and how women were treated and seen as lower then men and not able to have the Priesthood, etc. and the fact that Church leaders allowed & encouraged divorce & remarriage when Christ & many prophets clearly taught that it is adultery, plus the way it seemed most leaders used unrighteous dominion & supported spouse abuse, when they were supposed to have the Spirit & discernment & inspiration & be righteous. So many many things did not add up. Every leader I knew was doing or supporting great evil not being righteous.
Then I found out a vital truth, Joseph Smith never preached or practiced polygamy. It appears to be all Brigham Young’s doing, because of his lustful desire to practice whoredoms & thus he pinned it all on Joseph after he died and couldn’t defend himself anymore.
Even if some want to believe that Joseph fell for polygamy too, it is still contrary to Christ’s teachings, which trump all. So I now finally understand that anyone who preaches or practices contrary to Christ, like BY constantly did & all the church leaders since him, is a false prophet or false teacher. For Christ clearly taught that polygamy & remarriage were adultery.
Thus, since I believe in Christ, I know that the LDS Church quickly went into apostasy, especially after Joseph died. BoM Prophets even foretold of this latter day apostasy of the Holy Church of God, and how everyone, except a rare few, would become corrupt and do evil today. I see that this has happened, even if I had never knew about the polygamy lies.
Thus, since Joseph died, the LDS people have dwindled in unbelief. Thus we have all these false prophets from BY til today, allowing the people to do whoredoms and some of the vilest of evils, while acting & thinking they are so righteous. But wicked people & prophets usually do look & feel righteous in their outward appearance, that’s why most people so easily fall for them.
I just can’t believe I didn’t put it all together sooner, for then my children wouldn’t be so entwined into believing in falsehoods & false prophets and hard to wake up.
I believe now we have to do what Alma did when he was awakened by Abinadi to the evil around him in his Church. We must just worship and study & live the Gospel on our own, with like-minded family & friends, doing the best we can until Christ returns and restores the true Church to the earth.
John,
at approx 21 min point you refer to the papyrus the Book of Mormon was based on being a common funerary text according the Egyptologist. Didn’t you mean the Book of Abraham?
Chris – Yes. That was a mis-statement. I meant the Book of Abraham. My bad! I’m slow and clumsy of speech!
thank you so much for your videos, John! This video covers basically all the issues I have with the church, very well done. Now, when my family finds out that I’m not a true believer anymore, I can just send them this link :)
The problem that I see is in the truthfulness of the presentation. I have already proven that the translation process complete with Joseph’s head in the hat has been in the Ensign. Plus, the seer stones too. Also, polygamy and Joseph Smith is in the seminary manual. And it is graphically described in the D and C, section 132 with the Introduction stating that Joseph began the process in 1831. And to my understanding polyandry is in verse 41 of that section. Not much is hidden with a careful reading of the scriptures. And Joseph himself admits to searching for treasure in his own history contained in the scriptures.
Why me,
What you’ve proved by graciously providing a link to one article published in the Ensign in the 1990’s is that you believe in a narrative which tries to legitimize accurate translations of a book by sticking one’s head into a hat full of rocks.
Congratulations.
The hat trick is quite a happening. Try to stick your head in a hat and write a book as claimed what happened to Joseph Smith. And make sure that you have a scribe. No manuscript and following the accounts of emma and others. Good luck.
why me,
I have never heard of any G.A. reveal or discuss that Joseph Smith taught against polygamy his whole life and said that anyone who preached or practiced it, including prophets, would be damned.
That is pretty heavy stuff, and to mislead the membership and say that Joseph lived polygamy, when there is no proof of it, only hearsay, mostly by polygamists, is an incredible act of dishonesty in my book.
I believe the Church leaders at the top must be well aware that Joseph preached so strongly against polygamy and even put it in the D&C, which BY conveniently took out and then added 132. The leaders know that the BoM also condemns polygamy in the strongest terms and in all ages.
And what about how Christ taught against polygamy, saying a man could not be married to 2 living women, even if he divorced the 1st one 1st, for it’s adultery, cause divorce means nothing to God.
There is no way the Church can call itself Christian and preach polygamy or remarriage. They would be more honest if they at least changed the name of the Church to “The Church of Brigham Young of Latter-Day Saints”.
For it certainly preaches & practices anti to Christ and so many of his teachings.
It’s nice that you can find these nuggets of information scattered throughout the vast archives of church information, but that hardly counts as honest transparency. It counts as obligatory disclosure in the small print. How many of your fellow Mormons do you know that have carefully sifted through the seminary manuals, D & C, HoC, and all the other obscure sources? How would you know what to look for unless people told you the main criticisms? My dad was a stake president, and was mostly unaware of most of the main historical problems. Most members join, live, and die without full disclosure.
In the information age, very little can actually be hidden. The corporate church understands this, so the best they can do is remain largely silent about the “weird” stuff, and warn members against apostates and the internet. That is the status quo that needs to change. No more taboos surrounding history and science.
Maybe in every Ensign there should be an account of all the historical issues. Or maybe a thousand page book with all the historical issues that may cause problem and these issues can be discussed every year instead of the scriptures. Would that do the trick? And of course, the critics will have a different interpretation of what that book says. So, it would be a battle of interpretations. But what other church wears their historical issues on their sleeve for all to see? In seminary young members learn of polygamy and Joseph Smith. It is not hidden. And it is in the d and c and that is not obscure. It is in the Intro.
> what other church wears their historical issues
> on their sleeve for all to see?
What other church claims a large population of middle eastern descent came to the Americas and built a great civilization and Christ came to visit? Our historical claims are amazingly bold and imminently fact checkable.
What Joseph said against polygamy are not tiny nuggets, but many major boulders that are not hard to find, for there are so many of them, ‘IF’ someone has a real desire for truth.
But most people don’t seem to want to know the truth, thus they aren’t willing to go looking for it, nor can they usually discern falsehoods or false prophets when they hear them.
Joseph said so much against polygamy during his lifetime, that anyone who had the Spirit would know it’s wrong & would look into it & would find Joseph’s teachings pretty quickly. For it’s proof in so many places. If we are righteous, the Holy Spirit will tell us that polygamy isn’t right and then we take it from there and find the truth about church history.
I believe I would have found out the hidden answers eventually even if someone hadn’t told me about it sooner, for I was very close to finding it on my own because of all my research, for ever since I heard about polygamy over 30 years ago, I knew it wasn’t right. And I questioned, pondered & researched about it until I found the truth about it.
Anyone who loves the truth will find it.
Blind obedience & blind faith is much easier than searching for the truth. Most people don’t want to do their own homework, they want the easy way, blind unquestioning obedience to leaders even Prophets, but it always leads to sure deception.
I read the posts here and it’s always amazing to me how polarizing and dividing religion is. For some it’s so obvious that the contradictions in Joseph Smith’s stories blare like a loud alarm. To others they simply resonate as pure truth. Highly intelligent people on both sides of the issue come to comletely different conclusions. In my opinion we believe what we choose to believe. People talk about their feelings as evidence of truth. I believe feelings are used as evidence when there is no real evidence. Not sure how anyone can claim that there is real evidence that Mormonism is the only true church. Feelings aren’t good enough. In the Bible at least we know where the cities and countries are. We can find nothing of the Book of Mormon civilizations. Nothing! No cities, no writings, no swords, no chariots, no evidence of wheat ot barley or sheep or horses or elephants or well you get my point. To say you know truth based on feelings is so dangerous. God gave us a brain to reason with. I wish I had been taught at a much earlier age to use it better to identify truth rather than to depend on feelings.
But we do need to understand that we have no proof that Christ was the actual son of God who performed miracles. We only have what the bible claims, and just a few testimonies at that. Thus, we have a problem. I have seen no other source outside the book of mormon that would confirm the accounts in the gospels. No first hand accounts or second hand accounts have been discovered to lend support to the bible. All religious conviction takes faith.
Amen Brother!
It’s clear that the majority of times, church leaders act as men and not under the influence of “The Spirit”. Such influence is probably rare. This can explain a whole lot of problems with the church. It then is important to understand this fact when dealing with others in the church and navigating through it.
From: AlternatePossibilities
There is at least one reasonable positive explanation for every problem, issue, difficulty, or question about the Church that John Dehlin mentions in his 5 Myths presentation. Whether a given positive explanation is considered “good apologetics” or “bad apologetics” is, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. Some people will consider almost all positive explanations to be bad apologetics. Other people will consider at least some positive explanations to be reasonable, credible, convincing, or at least good enough to hold them true to the faith until the correct answers are revealed someday, perhaps in the next life. These are they who already have a strong spiritual testimony based on a burning in the bosom, good feeling, strong impression, audible voice, words spoken to their mind, vision, dream, etc. These are they who will say that logical positive possibilities have a high probability of being correct. People of a more skeptical nature, whether in-born or acquired, will believe that most positive possibilities we could give about each item on Dehlin’s list have a low probability of being correct. Explanations and possibilities which tend to increase faith are the most likely to be the most correct. Positive explanations and possibilities come about by looking deeper, by looking “at the heart” rather than the “outward appearance,” by looking at the spirit rather than the letter of the law, as in “The letter killeth but the spirit given life.” Things aren’t always what they seem to the casual or skeptical observer. So let us study apologetics with a sincere heart and real intent and not be intimidated by critics who label some apologetics as “bad apologetics” because they don’t agree with their (the critics’) preconceived notions, opinions, literal “face value” interpretations, or “scholarly” approaches. Let’s “leave no stone unturned” in considering positive possibilities to explain each problem, difficulty, issue, dilemma on the list. And yes, let’s all have charity for those who disagree with us about which possibilities–faith based or outward appearance based–have the highest probability of being correct.
I think these results are skewed. Respondents come from a liberal online community. This excludes those that don’t want to intellectualize the church. I think John acknowledged this at the beginning of the presentation.
I don’t think others are affected as much by the historical, scientific, doctrinal, and socio-political issues.
I have some family members who have distanced themselves from the church. However, their path is different than mine. They don’t intellectualize things like me. Doing so would drive them “crazy”. We’ve had some open discussions, and I think there’s some truth to the myths that John’s trying to dispel.
Why me said: “How can all these spiritual experiences be chucked aside when something is learned about lds history that may not have been known before? Seems strange to me.”
So a few spiritual (emotional) experiences trump facts? Who taught you to believe that? The church with the dodgy history perhaps?
Actually, ‘feelings’in relation to the holy ghost were important for the apostle paul and his teachings. What would the holy ghost be without testifying to people of the truth? Spiritual feelings and spiritual experiences are apart of the religious experience.
As Joseph Smith taught, we receive revelation/inspiration/visions/dreams/visitations, etc. from 3 sources, God, our own mind and Satan, with most of it probably coming from Satan, for his revelations are the easiest to hear, even the wicked can hear his whisperings and they sound the best to us & just want we want to hear.
I believe it takes a very high & rare level of spirituality, clean living & pure heart filled with love, to really receive much revelation from the Holy Spirit. Unrighteous or even good people might get bits & pieces from the Spirit but not enough to keep from being deceived, unless they were truly very righteous.
But most people think they are righteous, even most of the wicked do, so most people assume their revelation is from God, when most of the time it probably isn’t. That’s why we have tons of people saying they prayed & fasted or went to the temple and were told by the Spirit to divorce their spouse and have an affair with their secretary (true story) and they follow it and choose to believe it came from God because it’s just what they want to hear. They never think it could be from Satan because they of course think they are righteous and God would never want them to suffer in a boring or unloving marriage. The Church doesn’t warn enough that Satan is constantly giving us revelation too.
We aren’t hearing much today that we must ‘test & prove’ any revelation that we get, to see if it’s true or not, by comparing it with what Christ taught and what the scriptures teach, especially the BoM & the original D&C, for they are purer & most likely more correct sources than the Bible.
If our revelation is contrary to Christ’s teachings or those scriptures, then Joseph Smith said that proves our revelation or the revelation from Church leaders, even the Prophet is wrong.
I believe the Church leaders have stopped teaching how to test our revelation or their revelation, because they don’t want people putting their words & actions to the test, so we don’t come to realize how far off their teachings & actions are from what Christ taught or to what the scriptures say.
But if we do test ours & their revelations & teachings, we will be amazed how little is in harmony with what Christ taught.
And how reliable are feelings for revealing truth? Hundreds of Christian sects “feel” their beliefs are true and feel that Mormons are not Christians. Holy Ghost seems to be a confusing guy.
Thank you very much for sharing this presentation. I am a disaffected Mormon myself. I have experienced many of the troubles that you described within this whole discussion, including being ostracized by friends, shunned (albeit temporarily) by family and to this day treated with hate and despise by members of the LDS church who I knew as a member myself. My issues were doctrinal/socio-political and cultural. I wasn’t offended by members of the LDS church until after i had already decided to leave. I believe these myths and truths are quite factually based and I quite appreciated this information. I plan to share this on Facebook so other people like me and those who are their friends and family, like mine, can have access to this same information. Thank you again for it all.
I’ve been studying all of this since the early 1970’s. I can understand how damaging the material contained on sites like mormonthink can be. When I read this material I am left wondering why the Lord allows such difficult questions to trouble those who would follow Him. However, when I study and prayer about these things the answer for me is found in the scripture that says “there is opposition in all things”.
I don’t have trouble with sites like mormonthink because of the experiences the Lord has given me in answer to prayer.
There are many schools of thought on how to deal with challenges to our faith. John is dealing with it in the best way he knows. I can speak to the school that turns to the Lord to answer the questions they are struggling with. I have learned that the Lord is a God of miracles because I experience them often. I view the Father and the Son as my friends.
Based on my experience, I encourage those troubled by these things to turn to the Lord with all energy of heart and find the answers there.
I think why me is a troll – an LDS apologetic in disguise.
LDS apologists are not allowed to post here? I just wanted to point out that some of the concerns that John had about hiding church history may not be that well hidden. The hat, seer stones, polygamy, breast plate etc have been either in the Ensign or in student manuals. And we do have the d and c 132 which basically tells all, even perhaps polyandry.
why me,
We all know that the Church has accused Joseph of polygamy (even without proof, only based on hearsay) & the Church has admitted that BY & the early leaders who followed him practiced polygamy, though they don’t talk about it a lot, for the truth about BY and those early leader’s behavior is quiet embarrassing for the Church and revolting to righteous people in my opinion.
What I want to know is, ‘where’ in the last 50 years, let alone 100 years, has the Church clearly admitted how Joseph Smith preached & warned against polygamy his whole life in his many published articles, talks & scriptures? It is a proven & published fact that he did so continually, & it is easy to find on the internet, or in the original D&C, so I’m sure the G.A.’s know all about his warnings & how he constantly called polygamy a vile whoredom.
Where has the Church admitted that Joseph repeatedly taught that anyone who preaches or practices polygamy will be damned, even if that person is a prophet? For we know that even Prophets can fall, for as we have seen throughout the last 6000 years, that many prophets have fallen for polygamy, among other evils.
‘Where’ has the Church confessed this as you claim? It is huge. Where has the Church also admitted that Joseph and Brigham taught completely opposite doctrines & religions, from polygamy to slavery to blacks & the Priesthood, to divorce to women’s equality, etc., etc.
It is ridiculous to say the Church has been up front about these huge truths. I would like to see where they have ever talked about how strongly Joseph warned against polygamy, in any talk, manual or Ensign.
Unless of course they used the standard excuse, and said Joseph Smith just ‘lied’ about polygamy his whole life and lead the Saints astray, so that when BY started preaching that polygamy was ok many Saints would not listen or follow him because Joseph said they would be damned if they fell for even a Prophet who preached polygamy.
If Joseph had believed in polygamy and thought that the Saints would one day have to accept it, he would never have preached against it like he did and said the things he did to scare them away from ever falling for it.
And how would any truly spiritual person ever believe a true prophet could really outright lie like that and remain a true prophet? Prophets can’t lie and remain true anymore than God can.
Oh, and Joseph warned against lying too, and said liars will be damned too, so does the Church think he was talking about himself?
Not to mention how Christ also taught against men or women being married to 2 living spouses at a time. (see Matt. 19) Where has the Church admitted Christ taught this?
And what about the Book of Mormon and how it also condemns polygamy in ever case? Or that Jacob 2:30 has 2 ways to interpret it, one that polygamists use and one that Joseph Smith believed in, which doesn’t ever allow polygamy, ever.
These are the real & most vital truths that the Church doesn’t seem to want to admit & talk about, for it doesn’t have any answers to it all, for the simple truth & Joseph’s pure testimony speaks for itself.
Hi John,
I watched your very interesting and informative presentation. You brought up some very pressing and disturbing issues many have with the LDS church. I have a few problems though with some of the content.
The use of the word “Apostate” I feel is grossly insulting to those of us who are seeking truth. It is as if the church is putting a label on them and demonising disaffected members who are trying to be honest with their life revaluations.
Your presentation at the end also suggests that everything will work out and that members will return if not in this life in the next. Many members would never dream of returning to a church they consider has totally lied and betrayed their trust, especially over many long years of devoted service and financial input. That thought is patently unthinkable to many of us.
At the end of your presentation you suggested some helpful and informative websites, including some of your own, but I am saddened that you did not mention your own excellent sister website gaymormons.org. Many gay members have opened up their hearts to you in this very public forum and told us all of their courageous struggles and almost suicidal anxiety they have whilst also having to endure the shameful and disgraceful intolerance shown by the LDS church through its worrying doctrine and by many of its leaders. This is such a massive and extremely important issue for these fellow brothers and sisters who enhance all of our lives and our societies, and I feel it deserved more exposure and enlightenment in your presentation.
Thanks again for your presentation. I hope love and honesty will prevail because of it. Please do not allow yourself to be exploited by the LDS leaders in any way.
I wish you well and I sincerely hope you may be able to change the seemingly dark and entrenched attitudes that prevail amongst the LDS leadership in Salt Lake, and that they may repent and embrace all of their members, whatever their choice of lifestyles and orientation, in a loving and and totally unjudgmental manner.
John,
This is such a welcome update and so relevant and important for all of us to listen to. For those who have left it helps them articulate what they have gone through and experienced and what others can do to reach out to them and maintain relationships. For those who are still active in the church it helps them understand those who have left and helps dispel myths and assumptions for why they’ve left. It it easy to understand and listen to, it gives credible information and sources to go for further information all with the goal of helping bridge this difficult experience that many are having. For everyone on both sides of this topic it’s a valuable way to open the discussion. I have shared it and hope my family/friends will move past any “fear” they may have about listening to it and be willing to learn and take the time to understand it. having these discussions is critical for those of us in mixed faith relationships to continue to be able to stay lovingly connected.
Wonderful job, John. I will use many of those information to help people and train leaders in my Stake (Macapá Brazil).
Did any of you here read or listen to Elder Jensen’s last CES talk? If so, did anyone else notice the respectful criticism he gave about the churches former practice of ignoring the hairier historical issues? Start reading under the heading “Lesson number 4:” I would paste it here but it would make this post so long that most people would ignore it. It is beautifully worded though and the entire talk is well worth the read, I hope you’ll take a second to click on the link.
https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2012/01/stand-in-the-sacred-grove?lang=eng&query=stand+sacred+grove+%22stand+in+the+sacred+grove%22
I am so sad to see him go emeritus. And just a side note for any conspiracy theorists, all 70s go Emeritus at his age, they stopped granting exceptions to this a while back because it was offending people.
I don’t really suggest spending time researching issues that don’t have answers. I think that’s why the church doesn’t address them. But it is probably good to be aware that there are seemingly controversial inconsistencies and then to learn to accept that your human mind isn’t all powerful enough to understand everything :)
Adam,
Every issue has a correct answer, if you go in search of it. It’s just that the Church doesn’t always seem to want to admit that answer.
But there is nothing stopping us from finding out the real truth about anything, via the Holy Spirit, which will tell us the truth about anything we may want to know and lead us to historical evidence too.
There is ‘nothing’ that the Spirit can’t help us eventually understand if we really want to.
But most people don’t seem to want to search out truth, for deception is so much easier and doesn’t require much from us.
This presentation seems to assume that there is something inherently good about the church that, if the problems were resolved, would draw those who have left back. Nothing could be further from the truth.
While there are those, like John, who leave and come back again, most people who leave, leave for good. We go through a transitional period where we remain interested in things mormon, in many cases devouring mormon stories podcasts and the like. But then we move on and rarely, if ever look back.
In my case, this is the first I’ve been back to mormon stories in a very long time and only returned to scan through the updated powerpoint out of curiosity. We have many friends who have also left, and to a person, we agree that life is better. Much better.
Mark,
I agree, when people finally come to really learn & accept the truth about the falsehoods, errors & evils of the LDS Church, they don’t stay around long and they definitely don’t come back.
For they realize that it is one of the most destructive & apostate Churches there is on earth. Almost any other Christian church would be better & more ‘christian’ to be part of then the LDS Church.
I believe the LDS Church teaches so completely ‘anti to Christ’ that it is very hard for most members to see through it’s dark deceptions & lies and finally find the truth.
But those who do come to see the truth gain an incredible new found joy and happiness, for the truth as definitely set them free from the falsehoods and false prophets that had them bound.
Hi Lilli, why do you believe so strongly in Jesus? What does he mean to you?
Another factor, which may or may not have been reflected in the survey, is the realization that people outside the church are generally happy and content with life. They’re not walking around loathing in misery and sin. They’re living good lives and happy for it. What? My neighbor who drinks beer is a good man, good father, good husband, and he’s happy??? Can’t be so! He certainly must go to bed each night unfulfilled, not being able to place his finger on as to why. Once Mormon’s have the epiphany that we don’t have a monopoly on contentment, a slight “head scratch” ensues. Couple that head scratch with the five things John highlights (cultural boredom especially in my case), then it all starts to unravel. Oh, and I’ll forever be convinced that xMo and non-Mo couples have far more fulfilling sexual intimacy than TBM’s will ever know.
Most of the Top 5 reasons for leaving are secondary to why I pursued other options; if fact, I wasn’t even aware of most of the issues during that time in my life. I could never come to terms with having to question God and his ‘inspired’ Word (in addition to buyng into the concept of a ‘Great, Complete, Universal Apostasy) to be a TBM. I started thinking it was blasphemy to question his Word, to do it is questioning the pure definition of God (all-knowing, all-powerful, and creator of everything in the universe). So do I trust God, or trust JS? Did God have total control to ensure accurate writings, translations, and interpretations of the Bible and his gospel; or did God really leave his gospel/salvation interpretation up to man? If the BOM is the most accurate scripture known to man, why does it not mention much about the LDS ‘Plan of Salvation’ (primary LDS doctine and ordinances, where we came from to how we become Gods, three kingdoms of heaven, etc)? Does God really have living prophet, seers, and revelators who don’t really prophesie, seer, or reveal much of anything (like John said, they’re pretty silent)? Anyway, I didn’t start researching more until my kids got a little older and started asking me more questions (my TBM wife has no desire to know of the issues). So thank God (or whatever higher power(s) is out there who may love and guide us), John, and all other resources noted in the presentation. It’s been really educational for my family and me, and I hope it continues. I hope we all find love and happiness in whatever journey we choose.
I am not completely sure of the whole intent of the video. I give him credit in addressing some issues. The better part was to say that members need to respect and not judge those that question this faith.As for me it is many issues that are not addressed in the video.I understand that the video would have to be much longer to do so. I believe also that it’s the responsibility of those that question also not to judge those that have the belief in religion. Interesting to me is that they find civilizations that dating back to 900 bc – 200 bc along with their cities or temples. But as of to date no history of any city from the bom has been found. Sumerian civilization was before the hebrews and had their own story of creation and flooding. It has shown that Genesis was brought from this story. Poligamy being another issue that creates problems in that if Joseph was a prophet and directed by God, why would he have hid it from emma? If we believe God to be all knowing then God would have told Joseph to comfort Emma with this revelation first and not create conflict. God is NOT CONFLICT. There are way to many coincidences in the stories of Joseph and his BOM . I could maybe believe in a couple but more than that and it’s no longer a coincidence. Was he a great leader? Yes! He brought new ideas and concepts into religion at a time that people were searching. intensely. In my perception and that’s all any of us truly have , He was another man putting together another religion with different ideas. Truth never needs to hide and to hide things must mean they are not true. God does not hide truths from us because then He would cease to be a God. The Lds church and all other churches do so out of fear. Fear is not of God. We all choose our own reality and how we allow Our ego to direct us by the things we have been taught and have attracted to Our life. If religion makes one feel better and do better, then by all means it has served it’s agenda in some way.
More than three years after announcing to my parents that I don’t believe in God or Mormonism my dad finally asked me why. I sent him an email with a link to the youtube presentation and this was his response:
“I got your email. I know everybody wants to be understood”.
I think that means he didn’t watch it. Truth is the TBM members of family will probably never watch this for fear that it’s “anti-“. It’s hard to have a conversation when the other party won’t listen, but thank you, John, for helping us with the words.
Ouch, I’m sorry to hear that, Wayne. That must be so hard.
But my personal belief is it’s just a matter of time now. I was on the High Council when we closed dozens of stakes in the Bay Area and many more wards, merging them into stakes and wards that were shrinking. That was happening while the overall population here was increasing.
And that trend is accelerating due to Propositions 22 & 8 and the Internet. It’s gotten so everyone knows good families who are leaving. Last week I was invited to a casual, local post-Mormon brunch and 30 people RSVP’d. Many of them had left local wards this year, partly due to New Year’s resolutions.
Maybe it’s still different in Utah, but in most places of the world it’s helping faithful members to understand the ones who leave because they are often good, respected members who stay positive, aren’t offended, aren’t sinning, and go on to be happy and engaged in wonderful causes.
That’s a big change from 10, 20, 30 years ago when people who left often had been offended or wanted to sin or whatever.