John Dehlin

Introduction to the Self-Assessment Tool

[00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. Today we have a really important opportunity for you, something that I feel very passionately about and that I've been working on for quite a long time. Today we are providing a brief assessment, a self assessment for anyone who is wondering whether or not they were raised in a cult or a high demand religion.

[00:00:30] That is going to be the purpose of today's brief episode. We are basing today's episode on three things. Primarily we're basing it on a really important book called Recovering Agency by Luna Lindsay Corbden, Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control. You can find that book@recovering agency.com we also want to give a special thanks to Jonathan Streeter@thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com or the YouTube channel. He provided much of the graphics for this presentation. And of course this is brought to you by Mormon Stories Podcast, which is my podcast, which can be found@mormonstories.org and on YouTube and TikTok and of course on all your podcast apps.

[00:01:16] The substance for today's episode comes primarily from Luna Lindsay Corbden. And just to give you a very short summary of Luna Lindsay Corbden's work, Luna wrote a book called Recovering Agency Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control where Luna studied all the major cult experts and high demand religion experts in the social psychology research literature. So people like Robert Lifton, Leon Festinger, Jana Lalitsch, Stephen Hassan, Robert Cialdini and others.

[00:01:52] And what Luna did is put together a list of the top techniques that are used by cults and or high demand religions to wield undue influence on their followers. And then because Luna came out of the Latter Day Saint or the Mormon faith tradition, Luna applied these techniques to Mormonism just as kind of a case study. And so Luna summarized these as the 31 flavors of coercion or mind control techniques. And I'm not going to read them all now, but this is going to be the foundation of our assessment today. And so we'll be going over each one of these in just a second. I do want to call your attention to a really important five part series which is over 17 hours of content where on Mormon Stories Podcast I'm going to be going in depth with Luna Lindsay Corbden about all 31 of these coercive techniques on Mormon Stories podcast Podcast.

[00:02:57] Starting next week we're planning to do one a week, Monday through Friday. We're calling it Luna Lindsay Corbden Week on Mormon Stories Podcast. So please, if you find today's assessment valuable or interesting, please go to mormonstories.org find the recovering agency series and I promise you you will.

[00:03:18] It's very in depth, but I promise you you will find it to be useful and valuable. Let me just give you a really quick plea or case for why this assessment that you're about to do and the accompanying 17 hour series with Luna Lindsay is very important. Even if you are no longer in a cult or a high demand religion, or even if you never were in a cult or a high demand religion. This is my case for why understanding cults and high demand religions is valuable for everyone. Number one, learning about cult techniques helps former cult members understand and process what they experienced. It is very hard to leave a cult or high demand religion psychologically.

[00:04:03] It can take 5, 10, 20 years, sometimes a lifetime to unpack. Understanding the tools and techniques of cults can help you accelerate your healing and growth after leaving a cult or a high demand religion. Secondly, it helps people who leave cults or high demand religions not get fooled again. In my experience, helping and supporting people who leave high demand religions, it's very easy to fall back into another coercive or high demand relationship or organization or relationship or church frankly. And so you don't want to jump out of the frying pan into the fryer, so to speak. So that's a second reason why this is valuable.

[00:04:45] Third is these techniques apply to much more than just cults. There are unhealthy individual relationships, unhealthy family systems, unhealthy businesses, unhealthy therapists and coaches and gurus, unhealthy groups and friendships, unhealthy educational institutions, governments and political organizations, all of them should be subject to an assessment as to whether or not they're being healthy or unhealthy and or coercive and understanding these 31 or in a second, I'll tell you why it's 34 tools will be helpful in this regard. And then finally, if you are a religion or a church or an individual or a corporation or a government or a therapist or a guru or whatever, you will want to learn these techniques so that you will never operate an unhealthy organization and or encourage unhealthy relationships.

[00:05:43] So I personally believe that literally everyone benefits from, from learning about understanding tools of undue influence except abusive individuals and abusive organizations. And we don't want them to benefit. So that's my case for why you should take the next 20 minutes to do this assessment. So we're gonna start the assessment. Now, here's how you do it. Get out a sheet of paper right now and a pen and pencil. Feel free to pause this if you need to, or pull out your laptop or your phone or your iPad and open up a fresh document where you can fill out a little quiz that's going to have 34 questions where you're going to sign a number.

Walking Through All 34 High-Demand Traits

[00:06:25] To each of the questions, I will say that Luna provides 31 tools or techniques in their book. I added three more of my own, not out of disrespect to Luna, just because there are a few more that I felt were really important and applicable.

[00:06:42] So there's gonna be 34 questions to this quiz. It shouldn't take more than 20 minutes. And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna Describe each of 34 techniques used by cults in high demand religions and unhealthy organizations. And you're gonna sign in your little blank one of three numbers, either a 0, a 1, or a 2. The 0 means that the tool or technique was not used in your experience with that organization, church, or, you know, or relationship. So zero means this did not apply to the relationship or organization. A1 means it occasionally or sometimes was part of my experience with the individual organization or church or religion.

[00:07:27] And then a two means that this tool or technique was frequently or a significant part of my experience with the organization or church or religion, et cetera. And of course, if I go too fast, please just feel free to pause YouTube or pause Facebook or pause your Pod podcast app to give you time to think and reflect about each of the 34 questions. Is that all right? Okay, pull out your paper, pull out your pen, pull out your digital ink, and let's get started on the assessment. Okay. The first tool that cults use to wield un unhealthy influence is called deception. And deception is defined as lies, omissions, and front activities to cover up flaws or unusual aspects of the group, doctrine, leadership, and history.

[00:08:24] Some of these deceptions will be revealed later when a member is ready. So if your church or religion organization engages in lies, omissions, front activities to cover up flaws or unusual aspects of the group, doctrine, leadership, or history.

[00:08:42] And some of these deceptions are not revealed until after a member is ready. Assign the appropriate number. 0 means it was not part of your experience in the cult or church or organization. One means it was sometimes true. Two means it was a significant part of your experience. Okay, you've already done number one. Let's move on to number two. Sacred science.

[00:09:04] This involves a closed system of logic. The ideology of the group and or the leadership have the one and only truth. Members should only seek answers within group teachings or with group members who are approved. Doctrinal logic is airtight. The leaders are above criticism and those who question or criticize are considered immoral. All right, assigned a 0 if this was not part of your experience.

[00:09:39] A 1 if this is occasionally part of your experience and 2 if this was a significant part of your experience with the church or religion or organization. Number three. Mystical manipulation forces exist which are more powerful than the self. Kind of supernatural powers. The group strives to fulfill a higher purpose. The end justify the means and events and experiences are orchestrated, manipulated or reframed to appear supernatural and prove the leader and or the organization are chosen and or the doctrines are true. So that's mystical manipulation. 0 if that's not familiar to you with the organization. 1 if it was sometimes true or 2 if this was a significant part of your experience.

[00:10:37] Number three. Number four. Sorry. Love bombing. Love bombing is friendliness, flattery, praise and affection all being used to entice either recruitment and participation and attendance for recruits or to retain members who may be showing less enthusiasm or are thinking to leave. That's called being love bombed. Okay, if in your organization you experience love bombing, either to join it or to not leave it, and that was a significant thing, it's a two if it was not so much, if it was sometimes there but not frequently or significant one if it was never there, then that's a zero. Love bombing. Okay, Number five. Demand for purity or perpetual inadequacy.

[00:11:32] This involves lofty moral goals being set. And at first the goals might seem achievable, but the standards of achievement grow ever more impossible to meet, keeping the follower feeling perpetually inadequate. So if there are standards for purity and they're high and you never feel like you can measure up, that's a two. If sometimes that was your experience, that's a one. And if it's never, then that's a zero.

[00:12:03] Okay, the next one. Dispensation of existence. This is number six. The individual's literal or figurative existence is threatened as a consequence for impurity, doubt, or leaving the group life or the eternal soul or self esteem or a sense of being good and one's identity or existence hangs in the balance. So that's called dispensation of existence. This is like, you know, heaven, hell, eternal damnation, that sort of thing, or something comparable here in this earthly existence. So that's number six. Dispensation of existence. Two if that was a significant part of your experience. One if it was sometimes part of your experience, zero if it was not part of your experience.

[00:12:56] Number seven. Milieu control, information and environment are tightly controlled. Gossip, questioning and criticism is tightly regulated, as is access to outside information, especially that which might raise doubts or be critical of the group. And often it's the group that's enforcing this, not, you know, yes, the leadership. But often this is enforced by fellow group members.

[00:13:28] That's milieu control. Number seven. If this was a significant part of your experience, that's a 2. If it was a moderate part of your experience, that's a one. And if you did not experience it, give it a zero. All right. Number eight. Destabilizing the self.

[00:13:44] Barriers are torn down that would otherwise prevent acceptance of new beliefs. Includes those who have already been destabilized by life situations and the indoctrination of children who have not yet formed a sense of self. This kind of entails you being broken down and then rebuilt. And by being given a group identity instead of being courage to have your own individual growth and identity. That's destabilizing the self. If that was a significant part of your experience, that's a two. One is for a moderate and zero is for nothing, not part of your experience. That's number eight. Number nine. Creating dependency. A member comes to depend on the group for physical, emotional, social, spiritual, or psychological or other needs.

[00:14:35] The member has a high stake in continuing to stay loyal to the group. And this also would entail massive fear and threats being employed. If you leave. Sort of like you can't be healthy or happy without us or without this organization. That's creating dependency. Two if it's a yes, one if it's a sort of, and zero if it's a no. All right. Number 10. We're third. Almost a little. Almost a third of the way done. Black and white thinking is number 10. Broad spectrums of thought and morality are usually and often reduced to two options. Good or evil, love or hate, weak or strong, humble versus proud.

[00:15:20] Basically black and white. Black and white thinking. Is it a very binary sort of mentality? Two if that's a significant part of your experience. One if it's moderate and zero if it's none. Black and white thinking. Number 11. Elitism. The members of the group are chosen. Are the chosen people. They're exalted. They're more righteous than others. The members are made to feel special when they're compared to outsiders. If that's an important significant part of Your experience, that's a two or three. One if it's a moderate and zero if that was not part of your experience.

[00:15:58] Number 12. Us versus them thinking. This is similar but slightly different. This is a form of black and white thinking wherein outsiders, ex members and those critical of the group are dehumanized and labeled as evil, apostates, vicious, hateful, prideful, blinded or deceived.

[00:16:23] A persecution complex may exist whereby reasonable criticism is reframed as an attack. So if there's a heavy us versus them mentality in your group, that's a two. If it's moderate, that's a one. And if it's a zero, then that doesn't apply. That's 12. Us versus them thinking. Number 13. Doctrine over self. This involves the individual is subordinate to the group leader and its teachings. When personal desires, goals and values conflict with group values, the individuals are selfish or immoral or just. Their basic needs are subjugated to the priorities of the organization. Okay, that's doctrine over self. Number 13. If this was a significant part of your experience, it's a 2.

[00:17:21] Moderate is a 1. Zero is. If this was not part of your experience, the next one is social pressure. Social acceptance and rejection are used to reward and punish. A member becomes driven with the desire to perform largely from these heavy, significant social pressures. That could be family, it can be friends, it can be your community, et cetera. Lots of pressure. All right, if that was a significant part of your experience, give it a 2. Moderate is a 1. 0 if that was not part of your experience.

[00:17:58] Number 15. Belief follows behavior. Action generates the associated beliefs. Groups may encourage members to follow group teachings in order to gain belief. There's a focus on proselytizing and missionary work, but that's often to promote belief in the member as well as the investigator. But the focus is on them telling you just do the stuff. And then if you do the stuff, the beliefs will follow. Two if that's a significant part of your experience, one if it's moderate, zero if that was not part of your experience.

[00:18:41] Number 16 is double binds. A double bind is a mentality or teachings where you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. You must betray the group or betray your own identity. And it often feels like there's no way out. You're in a double bind with no way out. If you if this double bind sort of mentality was a significant part of your experience, give it a 2. If it was a moderate part of your experience, give it a 1. If it was not Part of your experience, give it a zero. That's number 16.

[00:19:18] Number 17. Blame reversal. The group leadership or doctrine are above reproach, so that any failed promises and bad situations are always the fault of of the member or the participant. So if everything goes right, the group gets all the credit. If you try what the group tells you and it goes wrong, you must have been doing it wrong. The problem was with you, not with the group, that's called blame reversal. If that was a big part of your experience, give it a two. Moderate. Give it a one. Zero if that wasn't part of your experience.

[00:19:55] Number 18. Emotion over intellectual. If emotion is emphasized as the preferred decision making tool and the value of evidence or science or reason is downplayed. If doctrines are frequently taught in emotional contexts, such as through stories told in tearful or gentle tones, often with lots of music, then you experienced emotion over intellectual. 2 if that was a significant part of your experience. 1 if it was a moderate. Part 0 if that was not part of your experience.

[00:20:32] Number 19. Indirect directives. Certain restrictions or demands on behavior are implied rather than expressed explicitly. The logical elements for a given conclusion are supplied, leaving the member to draw the conclusion for herself or himself or themselves. Leadership remains innocent of issuing any unseemly teachings.

[00:21:02] So if there are these secret indirect directives that are clear throughout the membership, but not always explicitly taught by the leadership, and that's used to wield undue influence, give that a two if that's a moderate part of your experience, give it a 1. Give it a 0 if that was not part of your experience.

[00:21:24] Number 20. Identification and example. Those who behave correctly or incorrectly are used as examples. Suggested behavior can be inferred from these stories without direct commandment. Stories are told which may be reframed or blatantly untrue to demonstrate consequences. The human mind relates strongly to stories and and it also inspires social pressure. So the use of personal stories, good or bad, to instill commitment or fear in a way that's manipulative or coercive and emotional. If that was your experience, give it a 2. Moderately, give it a 1. 0 if that wasn't part of your experience, that's identification and example. 21. Totalist Reframing Situations, Thoughts or feelings are reinterpreted in a way that suits the goals of the organization.

[00:22:24] This is used to continually prove the ideology correct, to squelch doubts, and to silence others. This is sort of a worldview that everything in the world somehow fits through the funnel and the lens of the organization that you belong to and there's nothing that escapes a reframing of putting it in the context of of this organization that you belong to. If that was a big part of your experience, give it a 2. 1. If it's a moderate, part 0 if that was not part of your experience.

[00:22:56] 22. Loading the language this is where existing words are loaded with new meaning. New words are added, word meanings are changed. Other words are banned or dropped from usage if they're not convenient to the group. This affects the ability to think as well as the ability to communicate comfortably with those outside of the group. So if you found that your organization loaded language changed the meaning of words manipulated through language and the meaning of words Heavily, that's a 2. If it was moderate, give it a 1. If it's a 0. If that was not part of your experience with the group.

[00:23:40] 23. Thought terminating cliches short phrases, pat answers, metaphors and emotional reactions that are pre established to frame doubts. Doubt and questions are automatically shut down with these thought terminating cliches. So this could be things like doubt your doubts or they leave the church, but they can't leave it alone. Those types of pithy short phrases that are intentionally used or unintentionally used to stop thoughts, to stop learning, and to keep people from thinking and or doubting and questioning the organization. If that if those are a big part of your experience, give it a 2. If it was moderately part of your experience, give it a 1.

[00:24:26] If it was not part of your experience, give it a zero. All right, the next one is 24. Public commitment commitments to the organization are expressed aloud. Public statements reinforce belief and dedication to the group. So this would be altar calls. This would be testimony meetings, whatever it is to exhibit public commitment that not only is important for the person expressing the commitment, but also other people around to be influenced by the expression of public commitment. If this was a heavy part of your experience, give it a 2. If it was moderately part of your experience, a 1 and a 0. If that was not part of your experience, okay, the next one is time control number 25.

[00:25:13] The member has little time or energy to question beliefs, associate with outsiders, or examine life too closely. Time spent on group related activities is strongly encouraged or enforced and usually fills every spare moment. So if your organization was dominating your time, such as you didn't even have time to learn about problems with the organization or a desire because you're so busy serving in it, that's time control. A 2. Give it a 2. If that was a big part of your experience, 1 if it was moderate, 0 if that was not a part of your experience.

[00:25:51] All right. 26. Dissociative states, trance induction and dissociative states. This is where critical thinking skills are reduced through the encouragement of what are called receptive mental states. These are altered states that can be mild and seem normal, and they can include things like concentration, fatigue, boredom, and hunger or fasting.

[00:26:22] So if you were some or sort of, you know, experiences that take you out of a rational mental state into some sort of emotional exuberance. So if your religion or organization or relationships relied on these dissociative states heavily, give it a 2. If it was moderate, give it a 1. If it did not rely on dissociative states as a part of the experience, give it a zero. The next one is euphoria induction. This is where the euphoria of group participation and fulfilling the member's ideals and motives motivates good behavior and reduces doubts while proving the validity of the group. So this is similar to the previous one.

[00:27:06] But is there euphoria? Euphoric feelings expressed? So just to be clear, 26 is about dissociative or trans states. I may have mixed those a tiny bit. 26 is about dissociative or trance states. Fatigue, boredom, hunger, concentration. 27 is about euphoria. So are there euphoric sort of feelings or emotions that are encouraged and an important part of your experience with the organization? 2 if that's a significant yes, 1. If it's a moderate yes, 0. If that was not part of your experience.

[00:27:44] 28. Induced phobias. Fears are instilled which are either imaginary or based on real or exaggerated consequences or on artificial effects created from group pressures. So if the group is frequently or significantly making you afraid of things that aren't necessarily rooted in reality or evidence or science, but instead fears and fear are used to manipulate and control you and to keep you committed to the organization, this might apply to you. So if induced phobias was a big part, 28 is the number. Give it a 2 for a significant yes, 1 for a moderate, yes, 0 for a no.

[00:28:30] 29. Guilt and shame. This goes along with purity culture. If your organization induced a cycle of guilt and shame that comes from repressed doubts or social pressures or failure to meet impossible moral standards. So it's not just a purity culture, but it's guilt and shame that also accompanies it. If you experienced a lot of significant guilt and shame in a way that was coercive or unhealthy for you, give it a two. If it was a moderate, give it a one. If it was a zero, give it a zero. That's guilt and shame. Number 30, confession. A cycle of guilt and shame comes from repressed doubts, social pressure, and fear.

[00:29:20] Sorry, I am reading the wrong thing there. Let me just tell you off the cuff what confession is. Confession is where you are required to go to a leader and confess your inadequacies or your moral failings or to another member of the group. And if those confessions, it's kind of extra bad. If those confessions are used to punish you somehow or to influence you or to whip you into shape within the organization. So if your organization heavily relied on confession, then then that's a two. If it was moderate, give it a one. And if that's a zero, then give it a zero. Okay, 31 is proselytizing.

[00:30:08] Proselytizing is where members are encouraged to propagate teachings to outsiders. This not only maintains or increases the size of the group, but also soothes cognitive dissonance, consumes time, and provides opportunities for public commitment. So instead of just your organization spreading because it's awesome. If your organization needs to spread because it wants you to do the missionary work or the proselytizing work in a significant way, give it a two. If it was moderately used, give it a one. If it was not used, give it a zero.

[00:30:42] All right, three more to go. And these are the ones that I've added in addition to LUNA Lindsay Corbden's 31 flavors of undue influence. So 32, this is one that I've added. Institutionalized bigotry. This is where marginalized minority groups are devalued and or demonized. They're kind of made enemies and they are structurally precluded from full participation and or leadership, often with God's explicit approval. So if there are women or minorities, people of color, sexual minorities, gender minorities, whatever it is, marginalized groups that are structurally devalued, demonized, and or kept from full membership rotation and or full leadership engagement, then that's unhealthy. If that was a significant part of your experience, give it a 2.

[00:31:38] Moderately, give it a 1. 0. If it was not a part of your experience with the organization. All right, 33. Heavy financial pressures with no accountability. This involves the requirement of excessive financial contributions, lots of pressure, and significant punishments for not contributing financially. And it's often accompanied by no financial transparency or accountability. If Your organization was a 2 in terms of financial pressures at accountability, heavily, give it a 2. If it was moderately so, give it a 1. If it was not heavily financially pressuring you without accountability, give it a zero. All right, the next one is.

[00:32:25] And this is the final one of, of the day. This is again one that I added. I'm calling it no honorable exit. 34 is no honorable exit in the minds of leaders and members. There are no honorable or valid reasons to leave the organization, and those who leave are denigrated and or demonized. If that was your experience with your church or religion or institution or relationship, give it a 2. If that was moderately the case, give it a 1. If that was not an experience at all, give it a zero. Okay, you have now participated in the full assessment.

Scoring Your Results and Why This Work Matters

[00:33:06] So here's what you do. To score it and to evaluate whether you were a part of a cult or an unhealthy organization, add up all 34 numbers and you can pause right now. Add them all up. Okay? Or if you had a lot of twos, you could just basically add up all the, all the numbers that weren't and subtract from the total of 68. If you're into math, you know what I mean? But basically add them all up.

[00:33:35] The total should be 68. If all of them were twos. But whatever, your total number is added up, divided by 68, and then convert that number to a percentage, which basically means move the decimal point over to the left two places and that will give you the score for the total assessment of your relationship with the organization. And then I've given grades. So if your number is 80 or higher, 80 to 100, your organization gets an F for being a cult or a high demand religion or an unhealthy organization. If it's between 60 and 79, it gets a D. If it's between 40 and 59, it gets a C.

[00:34:20] If it's between 20 and 39, it gets a B. And if it's between 0 and 19, it gets an A. I want you all to right now record either on Facebook or on YouTube. Write down your total scores and any reflections or if you're listening to this way later and you're listening to it on podcast or whatever, go to MormonStories.org, find this episode, and I would love to see you write down your scores and, or your reactions to and or impressions or experiences with your organization. Which one of these things stood out? We would love your feedback, we would love your scores, what religion or organization you've assessed, and we would love to hear your feedback.

[00:35:04] And by the way, there's a lot of people that claim Mormon stories, podcast or Me as a cult leader. That's great. Assess me for what you know. Whether or not you think Mormon Stories podcast or ex Mormonism or the Open Stories Foundation, I'm happy. Assess your marriage, assess your church, your school, your government, your political organization, your business, your company, your therapist, your therapy group. I don't care what you assess. We just want healthy organizations everywhere and healthy relationships. So please don't just apply this to churches or religions. Apply it to any organization or relationship. And then please, either in the comments on YouTube or the comments on Facebook, or go to MormonStories.org, share your scores and comments there.

[00:35:52] I would love to hear your assessments wherever you think this was applicable. And you could do this a year from now, five years from now, ten years from now. I will never get bored hearing your feedback. You can also email me@mormonstoriesmail.com if you want to keep your assessment private. Now, I'm going to conclude with how I begin. Why is understanding cults so valuable to everyone? I'm going to say this one more time.

[00:36:18] It helps former cult members understand and process what they've experienced. It helps former cult members not get fooled again by other churches or religions or gurus or therapists or organizations or podcasters or whatever, businesses, companies. This applies to much more than cults. It applies to relationships, family systems, businesses, therapists, coach gurus, groups, educational institutions, governments and political organizations.

[00:36:45] And understanding cults helps high demand religions or churches or individuals or any organization become healthy or remain healthy. So everyone benefits from this. And that's why this is all so important. I want to end also, as I began by saying, I just spent 17 hours doing an in depth dive with one of the most brilliant humans I have ever met in this regard.

[00:37:12] Their name is Luna Lindsay Corbden and the book is Recovering Agency Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control. And if you valued this assessment, I promise you, you will value hearing. Luna Lindsey Corbin has done all the research.

[00:37:28] They have a command and a memory of the social science literature. Unlike anyone I know. They are comparable to Stephen Hassan and all the other cult experts I know out there. And I spend five Mormon Stories podcast episodes, 17 hours plus, talking about this in depth. We're going to be doing this next week on Mormon Stories podcast on YouTube. Five days, three hours per day. Please tune in. I promise you you will benefit and we would love your feedback and experiences because the more you understand these, these coercive techniques that the quicker you can heal, the better you can protect yourself and the better you can support others and Again, I just want to end by thanking Luna Lindsay Corbden for their amazing book.

[00:38:18] Please buy it. You could buy it in print form, in audio form, you can buy it in electronic form. And please buy Luna Lindsay Corbden's book Recovering Agency Support Luna Lindsay. You can go to recoveringagency.com to learn more about Luna Lindsay's approach. Also, a huge thanks to Jonathan Streeter on thoughts and things and stuff. He helped with all the visuals today and he helped me learn about Luna Lindsay Corbin. And he's got an amazing YouTube channel that you'll really enjoy. Totus. It's also referred to as Anachronism. And of course, if you enjoyed today's presentation, if this is the first time you've heard of me, Dr.

[00:38:56] John Dehlin, or seen me, please check out Mormon Stories podcast. We have almost 2000 hours of content of people telling stories about being Mormon, about losing their faith in Mormonism, about leaving Mormonism. We think you'll appreciate it. That's today's presentation.

[00:39:12] Would love your feedback in the comments. Email me@mormonstories.org and please share this with anyone that you think might benefit, because I think that this is going to benefit everybody. Love you guys. Thanks so much for the support. Be good to each other. Take care and please stay tuned for more stories podcast and again next week and on The Internet, our 17 hour series with Luna Lindsay Corbin. Thanks everybody. Please take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.