Introducing Kyle Ashworth and the Episode

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1436

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 1, 2021, and today we are interviewing one of my favorite humans. And I mean that. We're interviewing someone super special, and it's going to be a very epic interview. His name is Kyle Ashworth. Hey, Kyle. Welcome.

Kyle Ashworth [00:00:18] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] Thanks for joining us.

Kyle Ashworth [00:00:20] I'm excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] Yeah. So Kyle Ashworth is amazing in so many ways. He is a real estate developer here in Utah. But I got to know Kyle on our trip to, what, Bill Riddles? Excommunication. Is that right?

Kyle Ashworth [00:00:34] Yeah, that was. That was a few years ago.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Yeah, a few years ago. But Kyle is known more broadly for being the host of Latter Gay Stories podcast. For those of you don't know, let me back up. So it's Pride Week here in the United Pride Month here in the United States. It's Pride Week here in Utah, and Kyle is the host of Latter Gay Stories podcast. But Kyle is so much more than just a gay man. He's just a human who's extremely intelligent, very insightful, very wise, very diplomatic, and just to kind of give a tiny bit of backstory. When I really wanted to help generate content around LGBTQ things within Mormonism, I started a podcast many, many years ago called Gay Mormon Stories. I convinced my cousin Daniel Parkinson to kind of lead that up, and he led it for a long time. Dozens and dozens of episodes got created, and. And then Daniel was ready to move on, so Gay Mormon Stories kind of got parked. And then after I met Kyle and got to know him, he wanted to kind of either revive it or do his own thing. And what I did is I did my best to kind of hand over the reins of Gay Mormon Stories. He rebranded it and relaunched it. And Latter Gay Stories has been one of one super influential podcast/YouTube channel within Mormonism ever since. And Kyle understands graphic design, he understands video production, but he also has become a really influential member in the Mormon community, being able to build bridges across the aisles, to build friendships with the faithful and people who have left to build relationships with insiders. You know, I think of, like, two of the most strategic, effective people I can think of in the Mormon space right now are Stephanie Sorensen Larsen of Encircle and freaking Kyle Ashworth. So Kyle is on the board of Encircle. He's also the author of a really important document called on the Record, a chronology of LGBTQ messaging within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And again, he's got his own life and his own successful business. But today that's all part of what the story is going to be. But I don't want that to be what really defines Kyle. Like I was trying to decide to even mention all that stuff at the beginning, because to me, what defines Kyle is just the amazing human that he is. So today we're going to be talking about Kyle's story, his Mormon story, his upbringing in the church. He did do the Mormon thing, served the mission, married the woman, had the kids. But today we get to hear from him what it was like to be a more a gay Mormon, to be in a mixed orientation marriage, to have that spectacularly or unceremoniously implode or end. And then how he has been a single gay Mormon dad, and then how he has turned his whole life into a life of advocacy and activism and just one of the most effective advocates and activists that I know within the Mormon realm. So just tons of wisdom and intelligence and compassion. So, Kyle, what would you add or take away from that introduction?

Kyle Ashworth [00:03:40] The only thing I want to add add is this is a Sherry Dew moment. When she wrote President Hinckley's biography, President Hinckley responded to it and said, adulation is poison. So.

John Dehlin [00:03:50] So you reject everything I just said?

Kyle Ashworth [00:03:52] No, I appreciate the opportunity to be here and to share a little bit of that story. And this is such an interesting topic. So what do I add to that? There's so much more. And buckle up for a few hours of understanding and getting to know what makes me tick and in turn how that has benefited this community. Because I agree this is a vast and wide open space. And it's been good to be able to influence and see how we can redirect sometimes often explosive opportunities or experiences into more favorable opportunities to learn and to become become better at understanding the experiences of not only LGBTQ people, but just general humanity. And maybe that is where we move forward with the story and that part of this episode.

Family Background and Mormon Heritage

John Dehlin [00:04:49] All right, well, let's begin. Your parents grandparents have their own kind of Mormon stories. So maybe we should begin there.

Kyle Ashworth [00:04:57] Yeah, so I was often we say Mormonism born of goodly parents. My mother's side of the family was were pioneer stock as they say. They were settlers of Provo, Utah, joined the church years ago in Nauvoo and some beyond that. So my mom's side of the family were very, very Mormon and come with that their orthodox traditions that Mormonism brings. My father's side of the family was everything opposite of that. My grandfather great Grandfather originated from Scotland, immigrated into the United States, was very anti religion. In fact, their side of the family formed what they called the breakdown church or a tear down church. They would go around and burn people's churches down. They were just very anti.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] In Scotland?

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:46] No, Kentucky here in the United States.

John Dehlin [00:05:49] Turning people's churches down.

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:50] The tear down church.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] Do we know why?

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:53] Just very.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] Why were they so mad at churches?

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:57] Just the family history that I was able to dig up was just that they, they had zero desire for religion. Likely internal conflicts, just the uncontrollability didn't want to be controlled or uncontrollability didn't want to be controlled by a society. And I think there had, there was some element of the American dream, like coming over to the United States, having a no holds barred experience and then seeing that churches had this ability to still control people. Historically, when you look at like the Church of England, the whole reason why the framers and founders broke off and, and formed the United States was not only religious freedom, but the ability to own personal property. And so here was a group of people who had come from the United Kingdom, that area into the United States and wanted complete autonomy. That was my family. And so my father's side of the family was that way. Eventually they made their way from Kentucky into Colorado and then into the small mining town of Eureka, Utah. Or if you're from there, Eureka.

John Dehlin [00:07:03] Oh really?

Kyle Ashworth [00:07:04] So little Eureka, Utah. Eureka, Utah. My grandfather would probably Eureka frown if I called it Eureka. So Eureka, Utah, which is out in the. Just the edge of the Utah desert, Utah County. It's in Juab county, but kind of the edge of Juab and Utah county, further west than Goshen, Santa Quinn area. So really middle of nowhere America. Some unique parts of Eureka. Eureka is the, it is a mining town, but it also was the epicenter of Utah's downwinder disease. The atomic bomb testing that was taking. Taking taking place in the Utah desert blew fallout over into that area. So high cancer rates, high radia rates of the people who lived in that area, my family included, I always think

John Dehlin [00:07:52] of St. George is the downwinder area. Yeah, Eureka was.

Kyle Ashworth [00:07:56] Yeah, there. The Tooele Army Depot, where the area that the Tooele Army Depot now is at and even the Wendover training grounds, all that was very influential in World War II. All that wind, all that radiation and fallout flew that way. Not only that, but you also were exposing the deer and the elk and the antelope and the rabbits to that which were main food sources for the people in those areas. So it was a double whammy. So that was where my grandfather and grandmother on the Ashworth side grew up and was raised. The true Mormon story really began for the Ashworth side of the family post World War II. My grandfather was on the USS Bismarck Sea, which was stationed in Japan just off the shores of. Of Hirojima. And it was kamikaze hit by a kamikaze airliner airplane and sunk. And he survived after floating in the ocean for 24 hours. And I think leaving Utah as a navyman with a pregnant wife at home leads you to believe there's got to be more to this life than floating in an ocean trying to avoid the sharks. And so when he did return back to Utah at this time they moved. They had lived in Payson, Utah. He met the missionaries and chose to be baptized. And I believe that was 1955ish. So it was shortly before my father was born in 1960. So that was really the beginning the Mormon story of my family. My dad was raised in the church, but I want to say like fairly inactively or at least as he grew up. He married my mother young. My mother came from a pretty dysfunctional family in terms of alcoholism and multiple marriages, relationships. So he was inheriting a family that was at that point a fairly schizophrenic mother in law, an alcoholic father in law, nine children spread all over the globe. And that was the family that he was marrying into. He essentially rescued my mother from that situation. And my mother moved in with my father's parents and essentially put their life back together. My grandfather ended up becoming an Area Authority 7D in the church. Really so active. Yeah, kind of the older days where there were not as many quorums, but that's. Yeah, he was, he was involved in the church and become very.

John Dehlin [00:10:39] I bet he knew Hartman Rector.

Kyle Ashworth [00:10:40] I bet he. Yeah, I'm sure. I'm sure he did. My grandpa was just a nice guy. Just one of those. Was his full name Bill Ray Ashworth?

John Dehlin [00:10:48] Okay.

Kyle Ashworth [00:10:48] Just a. Just a decent nice guy. And my father had those same characteristics as well. My grandfather was a scouter, which I think was traditional for that space. He was a Silver Beaver Award recipient. Spent plenty of time with Monson and, and these epic scouters.

John Dehlin [00:11:12] Did you say what his profession was?

Kyle Ashworth [00:11:14] He was an electrician. That's actually why he, he, he was an electrician in the mine in the Eureka Tinic Mining district. He was a electrical engineer. And so he was sparky. And that's what he spent his life Doing and ended up, I really don't know what took him to Payson. I should probably study that out. But he ends up in Payson, Utah, and for years and years and years stays actively involved in the church in a similar situation. Most of it that we see today. Most of his children did either become inactive or kind of departed the church,

John Dehlin [00:11:49] even though he was in Area 30, 70.

Kyle Ashworth [00:11:50] Yeah, in various ways, yeah. And that likely has to do with some of the same issues that we see today. Just this incongruence with modern day life and the ambitions of young kids as opposed to strict orthodox teachings. So their oldest son passed. Their oldest son passed away in a car accident due to a drunk driver. Their other son left the church early on, right as he got into college. Daughters didn't spend a lot of time in the church and my dad was the youngest, born in 1960. And so as the caboose, my grandfather, grandmother, both worked at helping to take care of my mom and teach her some of the skills that she needed, having come from a pretty broken home. But then also they were navigating the turmoil and joys of parenthood as well. The one interesting part that I think, I mean, just to kind of wrap up that, that section of, of the, that great familial Mormon story, is that my.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Did you know your grandpa?

Kyle Ashworth [00:13:06] I did, yeah. And my, my grandmother died in 1985. I was born in 82. So that's mom, my dad's mom. Yeah. So she died of cancer, not surprisingly. She died of breast cancer.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] You think connected to the Dunwich?

Kyle Ashworth [00:13:21] 100%, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] Okay. Wow.

Kyle Ashworth [00:13:23] Yeah. And just fast forward. All of my aunts and uncles, including my father, had cancer. My cousins have had cancer as well. All essentially the same strain of cancer, remarkably linked, likely, to this downwinders disease. But my grandmother had cancer.

John Dehlin [00:13:41] If they were ever a prophet, that would be a good reason to have some prophecy.

Kyle Ashworth [00:13:46] Yeah, that was it. Yeah. Stay out of Eureka, Utah. But yeah, so my grandmother died of breast cancer in 1985. My grandfather also had cancer, but ended up passing away in 1989 of a heart attack. So I was seven years old when he passed away. Quickly after that, the family essentially just broke into all their individual segments of autonomy. And my parents were largely inactive in the church when my grandfather passed away. But due to the home teaching program in the Payson Parkview ward, the home teachers there reactivated my parents. And so I was seven when my grandfather passed away, which I remember really vividly. And then by 8, I was being baptized and I grew up In Payson, behind the old Payson Bon Ton, over by the fair grounds. And in that area, the home teachers took care of my family. And my dad was a baker at Smith's. It's a profession that he had worked at for a number of years up to that point. And my mom, Smith's grocery store, there

John Dehlin [00:14:59] was a bank inside the grocery store.

Kyle Ashworth [00:15:00] He was a baker.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] A baker?

Kyle Ashworth [00:15:01] Yeah, he worked in the bakery.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] So you said banker?

Kyle Ashworth [00:15:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:03] Your dad was a baker?

Kyle Ashworth [00:15:04] He was a baker. Yeah, he was.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] He made the bread and rolls and

Kyle Ashworth [00:15:07] the best cinnamon rolls ever, if you. Yeah, my father, he loved to bake and cook. He loved to cook, but baking, he made wedding cakes and all kinds of stuff. He was a little bit of an artisan. I don't know that ultimately. I don't know that he loved it, but that's what my dad did. And when Smith's was purchased by Kroger, he just couldn't get along with the new Kroger management. So he figured it was time for a new venture. So I'll get to that point. But the home teachers reactivated our family. And I was baptized by my father August 4th. And I can't remember the year. If I was 82, it would have been 89 or 90ish. And I was baptized. I am the oldest of four children. I have a sister and then twin brothers below me. My brothers were born in 1989. My sister's a couple years younger than I am in 85. So that was kind of our family dynamic. We lived in a very comfortable Rambler ranch home in Payson.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] Is that near Spanish Fork?

Kyle Ashworth [00:16:18] Yeah, it's just south of Spanish Fork. In a very comfortable life. I raised pigeons as a kid. Fell out of the tree and broke my arm. The tree house we had in the backyard. Just a typical, very up and coming Mormon family. My mother, like I said, stayed at home, raised the kids. She. She didn't. Interesting. She'd probably be embarrassed to hear this, but she didn't ever feel labor pains or contractions with her children. So I essentially was born in the front of my grandfather's Ford pickup truck on the way down from Payson Canyon after cutting wood. In fact, my grandpa was pretty upset that he had to rush my mom down to the hospital and left a whole quart of wood sitting up on the mountain. When they went back up to grab it, it was gone. So somebody got some. Some cut up and chopped lumber. My sister was born in the elevator on the way into the Payson hospital. And my brothers, the twins Same, same physician took care of us all and told my mother, you will not walk for the next three months. So kept her on bed rest at the Intermountain Regional Hospital, Provo Hospital, while she for three months sat on. Sat in bed rest with the twins. So that was, that was kind of my mom. She. It was a life of unexpectancy. And so that was an odd side tangent, but that was our family. We, My, my dad still worked there for Smith's for, for a few years and then got. Took a job for the Utah Department of Corrections, went through post Academy and they were opening up the Gunnison Prison in Southern Utah, central Utah. And my uncle, who was a captain at the Draper, Utah Prison, chose or reached out to my dad and just said, if you're looking for a career change, you ought to look at working for the state. We're opening up a new prison and we need a culinary director for the prison down there.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] Oh, he did cooking still?

Kyle Ashworth [00:18:15] Yeah. So that's what he jumped in on. It was something that he was familiar with. And he went into the prison and signed on there. And I remember him going through police academy and staying at my aunt's house, living in a camp trailer which was up in Salt Lake at the Fred House Post Academy at the point of the mountain. So that was my dad's entrance into that. That took us into the wide world of Gunnison, Utah. And in Gunnison, we moved into a little city called Fayette. So we moved from Payson down to a very small community. About 200 people lived in Fayette. And it's really where life began for us. This new page in life. Both my paternal grandparents were gone at this point. Both had passed away and my parents were out on their own and we lived in the sticks and it was kind of fun. My first job was on a. On a farm, herding cattle and branding sheep and moving pipe and getting sprayed by skunks and rolling hay bales. And that was kind of the life growing up and then also just living on four wheelers and motorcycles and dents and bumps and bruises. And my. My parents moved into a small log cabin that was once a consecration camp settlement home in that area called Jap Flat, where they had in the 40s, interned Japanese families. When those camps were disinterred, they moved the homes back into the valleys or into the valleys. And the home that I grew up in is one of those homes, just an old two and a half room log cabin that had multiple additions on it. But I remember remodeling the home with my dad and just pulling the plaster off the walls and finding these rolled up scrolls with Japanese writing on it that had been kind of stuck inside the chinking of the cabins. As some family who was interred in that home, I didn't even understand the significance of it. But all these years later, I think I wish we would have kept some of that. Just wondering what those histories were, what was written on those little rolled up parchments and placed in the walls of these homes. So that was kind of my growing up. There was a lot going on personally in my world prior to that. And we can jump into the points where you start realizing like, life is good, but there's something different about me. And all those experiences, being baptized in the church, friends moving around, all led up to me trying to better understand who and what I was. But generally, in terms of life, life was good. We had everything that we ever could imagine having. But at the same time, we often really were pretty dirt floor poor. I mean, my dad worked for the state in an entry level job and we lived in a log cabin that was scheduled to be burned. And my dad saved it from being burned in a training exercise for the Gunnison Valley Fire Department. And he paid $6,000 for it and remodeled it. And that was the, that was the home we moved into. So it was, it was an interesting childhood and one that I have fond memory.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] Where's going to sit again?

Kyle Ashworth [00:21:42] It's, it is about 100 miles south of Salt Lake City, just so it's, it's about 30 miles south of the very center of the state of Utah. It's just right in the middle, 20 miles, 20 miles west of Manti. So just kind of where Hoffman is right now. Hoffman is in Gunnison. Okay, yeah, yeah, yep, he is in Gunnison. The prison down there is a, is a large facility. Now, I think it might even be as close to size as the Draper Prison is just because they've continued to add on to it. But it's a, it's a healthy facility. Down there with it is the main employer and the income generator for St. Pete County. And, and there are people who, the majority of the people who live down in the Gunnison Valley in that whole area have some tie to the prison. And there was some negative connotation to that as well. As we moved in, we were the prison people. It was like the gold rush. When the prison opened, there was an influx of new families moving in. And to the traditional Mormon farming community mentality, this was, this was tough, I guess. You could look at it the same way Brigham saw Utah transform as the Gold rush happened. Here was this little Mecca, this little Zion that the Sanpete County Latter Day Saints had created. And all of a sudden, in a matter of just a handful of years, the dynamic of the city had completely changed. There were all these people that had moved in to take a job at the new Gunnison prison, and it changed life completely. There were some growing pains. There was housing issues, but also crime rates went up. Liberalism invaded these small conservative communities, and things were different. So it was growing up, you didn't recognize a lot of that. But looking back, you see where those strained relationships even made an impact on my mom. My mom felt that. My mom always felt like she was labeled as just another prison. In fact, we were called prison people for a long time in our. Just our little community of 200 where there weren't many people in this community that worked at the prison, we were definitely the minority. Just because it was such a small town. There wasn't available real estate. Everything was already full and not a lot of new construction either. So I think growing up in that little city was. Was nicer than living in Gunnison, which was five miles away. And also the source. We didn't have a grocery store. There were no gas stations or anything. Where I grew up, it was just literally a bedroom community fed by a warm water spring that ran year round. The same place that we. Our chapel didn't even have a baptismal font. Everyone was still baptized in the spring up in the hills year round. That's where you were baptized. So kind of an eclectic, cool little Mormon town that had its own history of death and despair, but for some reason it just didn't blow away. Like the mainstays of those little Mormon communities just put their shoulders to the will and farmed the heck out of that place. And it just survived. If mosquitoes didn't get you, economics eventually would. And that was Fayette, Utah.

How Mormonism Shaped His Upbringing

John Dehlin [00:25:05] So let's talk about your actual. The Mormon part of your upbringing before we. We talk about how you felt a little bit different. But how did Mormonism influence your. Your family experiences as a child and, and as a young teen? And then what was your branch or ward experiences like as a child and young teen? Kind of the Mormon stuff.

Kyle Ashworth [00:25:27] Yeah. So I, I grew up fairly active. Ish. I studied. So I was baptized obviously in the Covenant. Shortly after our baptism, we attended. We were sealed as a family in the Manti Temple. I remember just being there with my sister and I in the Manti Temple and we ate crackers dressed in white, which was kind of a fun, fond experience. But my brothers hadn't been born yet. And I believe my mom was pregnant with the twins but didn't know it because I do remember the sealer mentioning that their family hadn't been complete yet. And she always clung to that as some special miracle that the sealer knew that my mom was going to have more children. And there she was, pregnant in the sealing session with kids, and she didn't know. So as we moved from Payson to Fayette, I think that disassociation that I just mentioned earlier, the ostracization a little bit weighed in on my mom. And my mom probably was the one who wasn't as motivated in keeping us in church. But we slid into periods of inactivity relatively quick. My parents version of church often was an RV at the Little Sahara Sand Dunes or Payson Lakes or Fish Lake or Otter Creek or one of these places. That's where we would spend most of our time was camping and enjoying the great outdoors. And that's really where our family's church scenario took place. My parents really raised us to have a fair amount of autonomy and didn't really push church on us. So growing up we knew the doctrines of the Gospel. Maybe the Joseph Smith principle of being taught correct principles and allowed to govern ourselves would be a great explanation as to how our life was lived. We were chased, we were taught the good parts of the doctrine. We were taught to be good people, just try to do your very best. And in the event that you didn't, you atone for your sins, pick up your pieces and move on with life. And my, my upbringing was that that very way. I served all the callings. I was, I was the deacons, quorum, everything throughout my experience. So I deacon teacher in that time. I was the president of those quorums. I served in advisories. I was really active in the old days. We, we had the fun things like steak road shows that we would do and some of those experiences that like our super activities that we would do, like mutual super activities where we would take vacations or trips on church. We don't have them so much up here. I know there's one in the Heber Valley, but up in the Salt Lake area there aren't the church camps that we had. We had. The Old Pinery was an example of one of them which was just a church owned camp like the Heber Valley camp where you just show up and there were boweries and Balconies and tents and you would have word campouts or youth campouts. A lot of those are gone now, the Stake road shows. And we used to take bus tours to Lehman Caves or just various locations. We'd do the pageant tours, Manti Pageant, the Martin Harris Pageant. Just fun. Like we, we were really involved in a lot of the activities. My father was also the Scout master. Even though he was inactive for much of my growing up or, or I should even say maybe less active. He was a super scouter. And I always like his dad. Yeah, just like his dad and I, I was a, an Eagle Scout at 12. Just had everything already in line. Had been active in scouting since I could put my fingers up. Like that's just how my dad raised us. He, he absolutely wanted us to have those intrinsic and, and what he thought were life saving scouting skills. He, he was a scouter and he served all over the place and I, I don't even know probably hundreds of scouts that he served under and he all want, he wanted them Eagles and he wasn't, he was just one of those guys that you absolutely just want because he was fun and he was obnoxiously not politically correct. He just wasn't the mold that you would think of in the typical scout leader. And because of that he had an affection that people wanted to be around him and liked his program because he was just genuine and real. He was relatable. He had a name or a comment about everyone, often not favorable. So he would just, he was a jokester. He was just fun. And so that was the program that he ran and it was a really successful program because it was successful. I don't think the church ever wanted to get rid of him. And they just continued keeping him in that space because he was turning out just an incredible group of young men that still to this day learned how to crack eggs. Crack multiple eggs with both hands at the same time. Like just little things that he would teach people that years later people comment, do you know, my dad taught me and I would always say how to crack an egg. He taught me how to crack an egg or bake a cake or a Dutch oven or. I mean he just was one of those guys that was a master of everything and skilled at almost nothing. Just one of those things that he, he was just a natural leader. And that reflected into the scouting career and my scouting career as well. I, I like I said, was an Eagle Scout at 12, had I don't even know how many merit badges, but just got very involved in Scouting Attended the national jamboree in 1997 at Fort Aphil, Virginia, which was a great experience for me and also part of my Mormon story because growing up fairly inactive or less active, I didn't really understand the history of the Church. And in fact I didn't understand it to the point I have two recollections. One, we were camping at Yuba State Park. I think it was around 1992 when Ezra Taft Benson died. And I remember watching on our green screen television in our camp trailer with rabbit ears, his funeral. It was either his funeral or the announcement of his death. And I just remember as a little kid thinking like, seemed like a great guy. I just didn't really understand who this Ezra Taft Benson was. But yet I knew he was a leader of the Chur Church. So I would have been 10 or 11 and not fully understanding who that was. Fast forward to when I was 15. I'm on the. In the National Jam, I went to the National Jamboree, which was a seven to nine day camp in Virginia. But prior to going to the camp you do a church history tour. And I remember, I remember hearing about the First Presidency and President Hinckley. And for some reason, like just the name President Hinckley, which was familiar to me, one of the missionaries at the Hill Cumorah got us all around in a little group and asked us who knew who the president of the church was. And I had no idea who the president of the church was. And when they said it was Gordon Hinckley, Gordon B. Hinckley, I thought, oh, I've heard the name. And so that was just interesting how experienced I felt or how in. And how we had a connection to the church at that point, but not a deep enough connection to even know who the president of the church was. That was one of those weird moments that I've thought about forever. So I essentially started trying to understand who this President Hinckley was and what the Church believed in. And really that Fort A.P. hill National Jamboree 1997 experience was it. It was the opportunity to really understand what the Church's experience was and what the Church had to teach. And part of that journey took us to the Sacred Grove, to Hill, Cumorah, the Susquehanna river, just all the infamous Fayette, New York, which I always thought was interesting because here I lived in Fayette, Utah, and there was a Fayette, New York, which is the Birthplace of Mormonism, April 6, 1830. And just down the road was Palmyra, and in Palmyra was the Sacred Grove. And. And I Remember walking through the sacred grove after hearing all these stories growing up thinking, I mean, I'm a boy of 15, not 14, but I'm so close to the same age as Joseph. Could I have that same experience that Joseph had? Walking calmly and silently through the sacred grove in what I felt was a pretty solitary moment, going on walking through the hill Cumorah and just kind of kicking your feet through the leaves on the hill Cumorah, silently hoping that you hit a stone box and verifying all the things that missionaries and church leaders had taught you before. And none of those things happened. I didn't have a grand experience in the sacred grove. I didn't hit a stone box with my shoe. Apparently my faith wasn't strong enough and they removed the stone box from underneath my feet and I didn't find it.

John Dehlin [00:35:05] Yeah, I. I remember going to the sacred grove and, like, trying to find a place to kneel and have my own, you know, theophany or whatever it's called. Like those church history sites and those church history tours can be really foundational to a young Mormon soul, spirit, mind, you know what I mean?

Kyle Ashworth [00:35:24] Well, everything that we do in this space really revolves around hope. And having not experienced much on that other side of the aisle. By having strong spiritual experiences, you are hoping that those spiritual experiences are backed by evidences. Right? You want those things to be true. So spending time in a sacred grove or in a hill Cumorah, literally grounds you, and it puts your feet in the very same spaces that these giants once walked. I mean, to think you were here where Joseph Smith was at. You were here where Joseph Smith Sr. And Hyrum and the angel Moroni and the Urim and Thummim and Plates and all those things are just fascinating. Knowing that you're within feet or yards or inches away from where all this took place and all this happened. So the thought or the ability of being in those spaces was. It was really great. And I really looked. I wanted all those things to be part of my fabric. I felt a natural affinity for Mormonism, not only because it was something that I was raised in and it was part of my tradition, but who didn't want a good life, who didn't want the opportunity to succeed and have spiritual experiences and exaltation and eternal life, all the things that you were. You were raised to believe and raised to seek after. So the hope was for sure there, the hope of being something bigger or understanding something grander than what you were able to experience at that point.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] So this jamboree it seems like marked the beginning of your kind of Mormon spiritual awakening.

Kyle Ashworth [00:37:09] It was at the same time as I left for the National Jamboree, my parents were moving and my mom really just had, at that point, enough of small town life and she was going to relocate to a place that was much bigger. And so we moved to Nephi, which wasn't much bigger, but it was, it was a little closer to Payson, a little closer to her family in Utah county, and my father's family up in Utah county as well. So we moved to Nephi in, in the Latter Part of 1997, shortly after I come home from the National Jamboree in August, and we moved to Nephi in September. So just a month after I come home from the Jamboree. So all those experiences still fresh in my mind and moving into a new area gave me an opportunity and my family an opportunity at a new page, a new leaf, and a new chance at forging a new future. And so we moved into the Nephi Second Ward and took up full residency. We immediately become active again. And I remember the bishop setting our family down and just doing the get to know you game, trying to better understand our family. And my dad obviously came from a background in scouting, and so they immediately called him into the young Men's program and wanted him to join in and kind of jump into that space. And he did. He ended up becoming the Scoutmaster. It didn't take very long at all. So he was right back into the thick of scouting a little bit. That was difficult for my mom. One thing that I should bring up prior to that, my dad also was diagnosed with cancer. At 30 years old, he was diagnosed with a stage three colon cancer. And so here was our little family in Fayette. I was young, my sister was young, my brothers were nine months old, and my dad was diagnosed with a terminal cancer that they didn't think was beatable. So he had immediately went through radiation and surgery, refusing chemotherapy after watching his mother die. So it took a terrible toll on his body. I mean, they radiated him beyond what they should have radiated him only because he refused to take any other treatments. And if they were going to, to cure him of cancer or give him the best shot, it required just a regimen that was extreme. And so there was some isolation there. Also on my mother's part, where she was, she felt like in the middle of nowhere with no life support. And they were traveling back and forth between the radiation facility in Provo at Utah Valley Regional Medical center and this little small town where Everybody felt isolated, so our move to Nephi was part of that. But also, I think my mom felt like the church also took my dad away from the family a little bit too much, especially with his scout callings, because here she. We were years later, after he successfully beat the cancer, years later in Nephi, and she was watching her husband get back into that same routine again, back into the scouting program. That took him away a lot of the weekends that took him hours away from the week, throughout the week. And so I think that had an effect on the family as well. But we were ready to begin anew. And it didn't take too long in our new ward for our family to move into Wilderness Church again, where we were back camping on the weekends, and we just weren't spending a lot of time in a chapel. But I was. I was the lone active member of the family. I had a great group of friends that were active in the church and a few that were in the ward. Surprisingly, the majority of my friends didn't live in my same ward. But that was just something that you do. And growing up in a slightly larger small town, having that connection to the church was vital to having a normal experience. And that's what I did. So I. I ended up becoming the most active in the church. And throughout high school. I moved to Nephi my sophomore year. So my junior year, I was the seminary president for the little seminary there at Gwab High School, and for all intents and purposes, super active. I went through a variety of callings as well. I was the first assistant to the bishop and the priest quorum. Just went through the same routine, but really took that foundation that had started at Fort A.P. hill and through the national Jamboree, and started studying a little bit of church history, and not necessarily the church history that we battle today, but more of the faith building, gospel library, art kit, version of Mormonism, and trying to better understand that segment of church history. I also jumped into family history and started researching a little bit of my family's genealogy, which I thought was fascinating, and just understanding the roots of who I was and trying to better understand the experiences of my family. So as my family slowly become more inactive, I become more active. And there was just something about the church that was intriguing to me. It was a sense of community, probably. It was the ability to make and keep friendships, to feel important and wanted and needed in a variety of callings. And so that was really the purpose, I think, for me, staying in church. I didn't have any monumental spiritual experiences that Said Mormonism is it? There were, there were these little signals along the way that just kept us, kept me moving forward. Yeah, that, that just helped me continue to affirm my, my slowly growing budding Mormon story.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] But kind of the orthodox Mormon upbringing, Bruce McConkie, Joseph Feeling Smith type upbringing, very doctrinal. It sounds like you didn't have that type of family.

Kyle Ashworth [00:43:30] No, I didn't have that type of family.

John Dehlin [00:43:32] Common sense values type of family.

Kyle Ashworth [00:43:35] No. And I think the traditional orthodox Mormon would look at my story and say, well, clearly the whole reason why you are this way or the end result of your experience is because your family wasn't doing family home evening. You weren't praying enough. We would pray at mealtime, but we didn't have morning prayer, we didn't have family prayer, we didn't do scripture study. We rarely did family home evening. But we also didn't have a contentious family. Like, we weren't in disarray. We had genuine love for each other. There was a kinship and a bond that our family experienced. And it was easy to say, like the church created that for us, but I think the truth to that was that we all got along and we were a very happy family in terms of, I mean, my parents both ruled with an iron fist for sure, but. But our family wasn't so orthodox that we lost sight of the trees through the forest.

John Dehlin [00:44:34] Actually sounds healthy, kind of.

Kyle Ashworth [00:44:37] I 100% would redo my childhood all over again. It was healthy. We had two parents at home. The fact that my dad worked in Gunnison and we lived in Nephi, which is a 30 minute drive, was healthy for our family.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] So he kept working.

Kyle Ashworth [00:44:56] He kept working, yeah, yeah. It allowed him to leave work at work and when he came home, he was dad. And so, I mean, working in the prison system, as you can well imagine, dealing with that clientele on a daily basis took a toll on him and it was difficult for him to separate those two worlds. And so there were some learning curves for my family as well. As my dad worked in his occupation, my mom generally stayed home with us. She did own her own floral business and my parents both owned a wedding and catering business for a while. And so she would do the flowers, my dad would do the cakes. And this was something he did on the side while also working at the prison that really consumed so many of our weekends, which was often our family time, that my parents just sold the business and got out from underneath it. Side note is, it's also the reason why I can't stand sweets to this day, Cake frosting, mints, tang. I mean, just all the typical things you think of in a cultural hall wedding, Mormon wedding. Those are all the things that our house was covered in. And I can't even tell you how many thousands of bowls of frosting and shortening I was cleaning as a kid because it was just a family. That was our family business. And we had a catering van and it had no heater in it. We would, we would wipe the condensation off the windshield in order to drive it through these winter to winter weddings. And that was. I mean, we did a lot of stuff as a family, and it was, it was just an enjoyable growing. It was just an enjoyable life. And so, yeah, we weren't orthodox. We weren't all the things that would then become the family proclamation described us to be. We were. I mean, we did have a. We did have two parents in the home, a mother and a father who, who equally reared the children. But it was really typical, the typical patriarchal order in our family. My dad worked, my mom stayed at home. She knew her role essentially. I mean, that. That was in terms of Mormonism, how our structure was. But we had a good life. Like we. We were raised what I would think would be relatively healthy upbringing.

First Awareness of Feeling Different

John Dehlin [00:47:12] So let's introduce kind of what you made an allusion to before. Kind of feeling a little bit different in, in my research with the LGBTQ Mormon experience, it's around 13, kind of as puberty starts, emerges, it starts emerging maybe a year before, where you start feeling like you're a little bit different. And then you start noticing your attractions might be different than you thought they would be. Let's back up and kind of in parallel, do you want to talk about the development of kind of, you know, those aspects of your life, whatever you're comfortable sharing?

Kyle Ashworth [00:47:45] Sure. Of course, you don't know what you don't know. I want to preface the story with that having grown up with as much correlation with the church as I did, which I'm saying I wasn't deeply entrenched in the church. Had I been, I don't know that my story would be any different. Mormonism doesn't talk about sexuality. Mormon doesn't like to talk about taboo topics. And so growing up, topics of sexuality or gender identity or any of the subjects surrounding this topic aren't discussed. And it's either we don't have the language to discuss them, or we always, you know, the old churches, the old version was that if we, if we talk about these things, we become them. So we avoid talking about sexuality or, or alternative thinking in an effort to not nurture it and allow it to grow within us. But I knew I was different really early on. I remember in elementary school, third grade, a kid bringing some playing cards that had scantly dressed men and scantly dressed women. And I just, I vividly to this day remember sitting on the concrete steps behind the second grade classroom door as they were playing these cards. I don't even know what game we were playing, but as they were turning them over, there were these pictures of men in these Speedo swimming suits. And I was fascinated by them. Some of the kids would remark about the women, and this is third grade. But I just had this natural affinity for the men on these playing cards. It was weird. I didn't know what I didn't know. I just knew that I had a natural draw to that. And it was just a little bit of, not a fascination or a fantasy as much as it was just an affinity, just a natural draw to the men in those cards. And at the same time, here were my friends who were discussing the women as if that was what they were predisposed to pay attention to. And I just didn't get it the point. And that was kind of things that I paid attention to, just growing up to the point of puberty. And you're right, the stories that I hear from a variety of people are the same. They get to the point where as your body begins to mature. 6th grade sex ed class, the maturation class is what we called it. You start putting a lot of those puzzle pieces together. I remember the town physician taught our sex ed class and it was done in school in the library. Dr. Noya was his name and he's. I believe he's still alive today. His, his son was one of my friends, but he showed up in, in our library at Gunnison Valley elementary with a 9 millimeter pistol. And he said, and he cocks it and lays it down on the table. It didn't have a bullet in it, I'm sure. And he said, gentlemen, your body is more powerful than this gun. And I mean, I just remembered that, like, how can my body be so powerful? It was, it was a.

John Dehlin [00:51:02] So dramatic.

Kyle Ashworth [00:51:03] Yeah, it was a very poignant and important object lesson.

John Dehlin [00:51:09] Mormons in their object lessons, man.

Kyle Ashworth [00:51:11] But I remembered it.

John Dehlin [00:51:12] Yeah, you sure did.

Kyle Ashworth [00:51:13] All these years later. And so I, I hadn't yet associated myself with the little factory at that point and boy K. Packer's grand analogies, but I do remember him showing that gun and saying, how powerful? I mean, I was convinced that the gun had the ability to hurt a lot of people and cause lots of damage. But what in my body could do something more damage, more destructive than this gun? I would soon learn quickly that the little factory analogy is the little factory analogy, and that the gun indeed has the ability to be beneficial and detrimental in this world, but so did your body. There were times where I struggled to understand who and what I was. I was trying to connect all those dots together. I knew, obviously, that I was different from my friends. And a lot of that difference happened one day in an old rusty 52 Chevrolet car, in an abandoned car in a field where a buddy of mine and I hid a Playboy. And he found it and brought it to the car, told me about it and said, let's go look at it. And we did. And he was interested in something completely different than I was interested in looking through that magazine. And I just recall his comments and some of the things that he was pointing out. And when I. Then you got to the back of the magazine, and I know, John, you wouldn't be. You have no idea what I'm talking about, giving your strong Mormon upbringing. But in the back of this, the Playboy magazine were the advertisements. And so women, women, women. But when you got to the very back of the magazine, you got to the advertisements. And in the advertisements, there were, like, pumps and pills and different things that were. That would appeal to the men. Well, that's where the men were represented in this magazine. And so as my friend got at the end of the magazine, was slightly depressed that it was over, here were, like, things that were finally appealing to me. And so I'm like, no. So I started going through, like, the ad section of it, and just. I was just really interested in all these things that were geared towards men. And he picked up on that really immediately, like. And immediately started into, like, kind of the shame process. Like, the. Why are you interested in that? Like, you're. And I don't think he said gay, but he's like, don't you. Don't you see? Like, don't you see this woman? Isn't she, like, beautiful? And I had to somewhat lie and say, yeah, she. She absolutely was beautiful. Like, I. But there was just something that was drawing me, and I immediately started shelling, putting myself, covering myself, and realizing that I couldn't be so vulnerable with those feelings because immediately he was interested in letting me know how abnormal they were. So that was really the first experience that I was like, I can't talk about this. Obviously this wasn't a topic that I was ready to explore verbally and publicly, but I was navigating those feelings and experiences on my own. And here was an opportunity which I felt super comfortable with one of my friends in a very vulnerable, looking at it now, a very vulnerable situation. And I had exposed myself just enough to be vulnerable and it didn't go over very well. So it was an opportunity to just start this process of time to compartmentalize. Compartmentalize? Yeah. Put it in a box, smash it, hide it, turn out the lights and move on. Because I needed to be like he was and I needed to do the things that he was doing in order to remain as normal as possible. So that I would dare bet that was around 11, 12 ish when that first experience happened. But it didn't turn off. The deeper I grew in my young adulthood, the more

John Dehlin [00:55:24] the.

Kyle Ashworth [00:55:25] The more this fire kind of lit inside of me. And I didn't have boyhood. I didn't have boyhood crushes or aspirations to have a date another boy. I couldn't even admit that I was gay. I just knew that I was attracted to boys, to. To guys. There was something about them that, that I was attracted to. At the same time I also knew that, that that's not what was expected of me. I also didn't know anybody who was gay. I didn't know anybody in the community that was gay. I didn't have examples of homosexual relationships. We had Ellen. And you can imagine what my family's view was. And you remember those days in the 90s when Ellen came out and all over the place people were turning off television sets because here was. Is homosexual on tv. That was the experience that I got at home too. So you pick up on all these cues and you pick up on societal opinions about what sexuality should look like. And Ellen was a great example of what not to do. And so don't come out, don't share your experience because you pay attention to the comments. I mean, I vividly remember sitting in the living room around the TV and my dad making comments about Ellen. And I was young, I was 12, 13 years old. And I couldn't tell you what I learned in school, but I absolutely can tell you that we were sitting on a velour sofa that had a wagon wheel pattern in front of the Xena television as he was barking about Ellen.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] And so what'd you think and feel when you.

Kyle Ashworth [00:57:03] I was Ellen. Yeah. I was in your mind. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] How did you connect with Ellen? Because she's Lesbian, right?

Kyle Ashworth [00:57:08] She's lesbian, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:09] So in your mind, I just want to hear, like connect the dots for me.

Kyle Ashworth [00:57:12] Just in my mind, I remember Ellen and her coming out, just describing how she just had this natural attraction and that it wasn't anything she created, it wasn't anything that she had wanted or forced upon herself, but it just happened. And here it was like a breath of fresh air for me. It was an explanation that I wasn't alone in my experience, but I also didn't create it. There were plenty of things, like I would beat myself up. Thinking back to the third grade experience, looking through the playing cards, thinking, well, if I wouldn't have paid attention to the man, did I create this? Like, had I had I created this experience on my own. And I was so young, I couldn't have looking at the Playboy in the old car in the field, did I force myself and condition myself to believe that I was gay. So to have that validation, to hear someone else say, I didn't create this, it wasn't something that I nurtured and in turn allowed to flourish was a lifesaver.

John Dehlin [00:58:15] That was at what age?

Kyle Ashworth [00:58:17] Probably 12 or 13.

John Dehlin [00:58:18] And then you were going to say your dad's response.

Kyle Ashworth [00:58:20] Yeah. So my. And my father immediately just. And I remember he used the word queer a lot and in a super negative tone. And so I immediately associated those same feelings that I felt in that old car of shame and compartmentalization with now I know who is not in my corner. And it's almost as if I would. There was a part of me that said I wish Ellen could be my mom and dad and my current parents. I couldn't be safe around them. I couldn't have that same openness. I just desired to be open. I desired a space where I could, I could explain and navigate and maybe even mitigate my experience. That's what I really needed as a youth, as a 12 or 13 year old. And I wasn't able to find it. I don't even recall anyone else publicly in entertainment who was openly gay. I just remember for sure it was Ellen. And Ellen was the one. So my only alternative was to do my very best at not being an Ellen. And that's really where the church comes in. That's where devoting yourself, losing yourself in the service. You look back now and it's everything like the miracle, forgiveness or any of those books teach you. Like you and I know this is familiar territory for you, John. It's this righteous church service, investing everything into religion, putting all your faith and Trust in God, knowing that at some point he will change you. And then start understanding your experience through the lens of the church. Like, what does the church say about me? And that becomes a really difficult space as well, because especially in the early or late 90s and early 2000s, the church wasn't saying anything positive about homosexuality.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] This is Boyd K. Packer's kind of heyday.

Kyle Ashworth [01:00:20] Yeah, yeah, this is absolutely his heyday. And you're, I mean, historically, we're coming out of the oaks era of 1984, the memorandum that he wrote to the first presidency on how to handle the topics of homosexuality. But then he's ushered into the BYU era, where you have the Alan Bergens, the Dean Byrd's, who are administering aversion therapy programs, vomit therapy, electroshock therapy to homosexuals at BYU. And this is happening from the 70s all the way into the 90s. And so this was Mormonism's approach to this topic. And not that I was well versed in eversion therapy at BYU and what was happening as a youth, but my church leaders absolutely were. My church leaders were paying attention to the dog whistles that were coming from 50 North Temple and they were understanding what the church's position was. And by virtue of that, they were disseminating that information to these small wards and branches throughout Zion. And I was a recipient of that, and I paid attention to it as the seminary president. My junior year in high school. I had an opportunity to go through the distribution catalog in the old days when we had those, and ordered some materials for the seminary. And there was a book in there called Letter to a Friend that was written by Boyd K. Packer that talked about homosexuality and overcoming your sexuality. And I was scared to death that someone might find out who and what I was. But I really needed to read that pamphlet. Somehow I needed to get a hold of it. So I ordered one for the Institute for the Seminary in conjunction with a bunch of other items. And I remember when the box showed up and it arrived at the seminary and I opened it up and I grabbed. It was like the third thing down in the, in the, in the box. And I grabbed it out and immediately put it underneath the UPS box that it had come in and then started sorting through because my seminary teacher was still in the room at the time. And as soon as he left, I. I put that book in my pocket. In fact, I stuck it in between my belt and underwear and walked out of the seminary with it and still sits in my mission scriptures today.

John Dehlin [01:02:36] Oh, wow.

Kyle Ashworth [01:02:37] I. I kept it with Me the whole time. And within letter to a friend was all of the ways that we can undo this malady that has become you.

Navigating Sexuality as a Mormon Teenager

John Dehlin [01:02:49] What are the. Do you remember the. What are the ideas?

Kyle Ashworth [01:02:51] Mission, marriage, children, serve a mission. Become anxiously engaged in your church callings. When the time comes, get married and devote yourself to your wife and lean upon the temple blessings and the temple experiences. And from there you'll rear children and you'll find that children will give you an opportunity to lose yourself in a new type of work. And equally yoked husband and wife will be able to move forward in your existence. And this all becomes a shadow. It all just becomes no longer something that's part of your tapestry, but something that is your new future. And so mission, marriage, children were the very things that I had to look four war two.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] Wow. And so as a kid you're just like, okay, I got to get rid of this. And now I found the manual. The manual is it found the instructions, just got to do this and problem solved.

Kyle Ashworth [01:03:44] Yeah. And. And there were other things. There were in the old days when we had written or printed handbooks, the. There was another handbook written that was just called Homosexuality that was put out in the 80s and it was an olive kind of a drab brown, orangey color. That, that was a full size manual that helped bishops and stake presidents navigate the same sex, attracted members of their ward stakes and branches. And I got a hold of. I don't know where I got a hold. I think I found it in the seminary or maybe even in the. One of the libraries at the chapel, one of the chapels that I had been in. But I got a hold of that manual as well and similar situations, similar information. But what was what was more maybe detrimental to me reading the homosexual manual, homosexuality is what it was called, was the advice and the way the church leaders were to handle or to deal with members who were impacted by this topic. And it scared me to death because as I read through there, where they essentially advised members to be ostracized, taken out of certain callings, allowed to attend sacrament meeting, but don't put them in spaces where they would work with children, keep them separate from vulnerable communities. There was a section in there that describes them not being and clearly this looks like oaks to me, but not allowing them to have occupations that would put them in schools near children. Just all the things that this manual was teaching bishops, stake presidents, young men's, young women's leaders about this topic and all those things scared me to death because I didn't feel like I was a threat to society. I didn't feel like I was a threat to my other peers. I wasn't lusting after them. I just.

John Dehlin [01:05:39] Let alone children, Let alone children.

Kyle Ashworth [01:05:41] I just was trying to navigate something that was completely unfamiliar to me. And if there were ever a Mormon scripture that applied to my situation, it was that I was twisted about by every wind of doctrine. I didn't know where to go to find out who and what I was. And when you navigate this all on your own, without the ability of parental support or religious support, you start looking to a community. And because my community wasn't there, I had nobody in this small town that was identifying as gay. I didn't know where to go. And so you sit in this stage of loneliness. Sometimes, like a merry go round and around and around you go, and you just become more and more sick. And the motion sickness gets to the point where either you have to get off the merry go around and stop, or you have to vomit to release yourself. And I didn't have. I felt like none of those options were available to me. I didn't have a place to go. I didn't have the ability to jump off. And I was so sick, I couldn't be sick. And it just was tough. And that kind of plays into why the church history tour was so important. It was, if indeed I am what the church thinks I am and says that I am, then there is a method for me to overcome this. And it is righteous church service. And it explains exactly why I was the only active member of my family. I had to stay entrenched in the church. I had to cling to the iron rod as tight as possible, because the iron rod was the word of God. It was my salvation. It was what was going to help me become normal. And I air quote that it seems

John Dehlin [01:07:17] so wrong and tragic that of all the family members that probably would be least best served by being super active in the church, it was you. And yet it was. It was the church that it was you who clung to the church most because of those associations and because of that conditioning. Like, that seems super tragic.

Kyle Ashworth [01:07:47] And that's a message and a lesson to our church leaders who may listen to this. And. And it's. It's a lesson in advocacy. It's not that we're trying to be loud voices that are screaming and yelling at you for all your wrongs. We're just trying to shine a little light in these blind spots, saying, you're missing a great population here and you're hurting a population that otherwise could be vibrant and effective and uninjured by this methodology and this theology. It's tough. It's a tough space. And I know, I mean, looking back now, it would have been if I would have known other people who are like me, who are navigating this same journey. What, what amount of bandwidth I wasted in this space trying to, to understand what it looked like to be healthy. I just look back and think, if I had a mentor, if I had a church leader who, who wasn't teaching the, the rigid parts of this subject, what would, what would my life look like? What would I have gained as opposed to have wasted in time that it took for me to get to the point that I'm at today? And then I look at. And this will tie into later in this discussion where we talk about the faith crisis or the transition of faith or the falling out. But where are. I remember President Hinckley saying in defense of the church saying there are other leaders of faith communities who are beneficial and important to theology, but none of them had the ability to open the heavens like Joseph Smith did. And I have thought about that quote over and over and over again because what if one of my leaders had the ability to open the heavens in terms of this topic? What if my parents would have had the ability to open the heavens in terms of this topic? What if Gordon Hinckley or Spencer Kimball or Bruce McConkie would have had the ability to open the heavens in regards to this topic? What would have happened? We see that the treatment of sexuality and gender identity 50 years ago is much different than it is today. So the God that was the same yesterday, today and forever either changes or our leaders need to open up the heavens and get on the same page. And that's the calamity in this topic is church leaders have the ability to open up the heavens and save their. They're congregants and they're not. Most of them are not. And I could have been saved. And I think there's a vast majority in the queer community who see a sense of longing and connection to their traditional faith and they want to be there, but yet they're kicked out and they're ostracized. And we can get to that later, but a little bit of a tangent.

John Dehlin [01:10:40] No. So let me ask you, I get the sense is you were probably a highly productive teen. I mean, you get your Eagle Scout at 12. Did you say you were seminary president?

Kyle Ashworth [01:10:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:52] By, by your junior year, being in a semi active home. I'm guessing you had Good grades? Were you like, you know, into athletics or were you into student sort of activities? But I guess I want to get a sense for. And I think this is really important. Did you look like the model kid, the model Mormon kid, kind of the high achieving kid. And then can you contrast that? You talk about being sick. What, what was it like inside? What, what were you struggling with as a high school teen internally? Or were you just wallpapering over it with, with achievement? Or were there real demons you were fighting?

Kyle Ashworth [01:11:35] Yeah, so I. My real demons. Looking back, the things that I worried most about. Great question, by the way. The things I worried most about were the things that were non starters and not serious. I worried that I fantasized and lusted after boys. Didn't ever do anything with a boy. But I worried that I was not capable, qualified or able to find favor with God or even with the Holy Ghost because of that, those feelings. I also felt like, I mean, as sexual maturity happens, masturbation comes in, those releases and feelings of natural, feelings of euphoric humanity happen. Those were all ability, those were all detrimental parts of my growing up. I just taught that they were awful and I had associated those with my sexuality as well. Therefore, those were the demons that I was running from. Looking back, those weren't demons at all. Those were just natural things that were processes that were happening with all the boys my age. But yet I allowed those things to destroy me internally. So I did exactly what you said. I wallpapered. I become super active in church for that reason, but I also needed to be involved in everything. In high school, I had three jobs. I worked at a radio station, I delivered pizzas, and I worked at a truck stop. So I was constantly staying busy because the more occupied I was doing something other than sitting at home thinking about who and what I was, the better my outlook looked and became. And so I just involved myself in a wide variety of community service opportunities. I worked in Juab county in Nephi City. There was a little thing called the youth court where offenders in the community could come to a panel of their peers and be judged and given community service or pay a fine or something in lieu of juvenile court. And I sat on the youth court for a number of years because it just was a good opportunity to stay involved and serve in the community. But with three jobs and the youth court and all those things going on, I found that the more I was able to stay actively engaged in these other things, the easier it was for me to bury the, the, the elephant, the monster that was growing inside of me and so I didn't have to focus on it. School is the same. I did. I got great, good grades. I excelled in school to the point where I actually got really lazy. Like, I didn't take homework home. I could just go to school. Pass. I mean, I don't think I ever got a 4 0, but I think I got a 32 on my acts. So I was, I mean, somewhat smart.

John Dehlin [01:14:40] Smart.

Kyle Ashworth [01:14:41] I put them all together. I put all the things together, but I didn't. I mean, yeah, school was great. Like, I was involved in sports. I was mainly involved in speech and drama, a couple theater plays. Not because I ever felt like that's where the gays should go, but it was just fun. We had a great drama teacher and we also. After I left Gunnison, I was in the speech program there, speech and debate. And I really loved analytical thinking and deep dives into political topics. So I was a Lincoln Douglas debater and debated at state levels in Lincoln Douglas debates and really enjoyed that. So I went into Juab High School. They didn't have a. A speech and debate program. And so I was part of that group that helped start one at Joab High School. And it was fun because again, you had an opportunity to shine. And even though inside you felt like you were damaged goods or broken, chewed gum, broken glass. On the outside, what the world was able to see was someone full of success and was moving forward with a lot of great ideas and ambitions. And so that's exactly the world that I was comfortable living in. It was the facade that I had created and it was the methodology that I had moved forward with. And it was effective. Like it was. It was working well for me.

John Dehlin [01:16:01] Yeah. And I think, I think I know the answer to this question. I think I see where this is going, but I just want to check in about it. It doesn't sound like an awful adolescence. I mean, it sounds like every parent's dream. You've got this hyper performing kid that's got jobs, that's. That's succeeding in school, that's intelligent, that's talented, that's exploring all his talents. And it even sounds like privately it's not super dark and tormenting. You're just kind of avoiding. So it's not so much. It's kind of like I'm thinking, wow, this was good for you. Like, you learned to hyperachieve and like the great Kyle that I know now. And I think Kyle is amazing. Like, I marvel at all you're able to do so effectively. I'M thinking, wow. Well, being raised a closeted gay Mormon teen was, was what made Kyle so awesome because you just learned to hyper achieve. And so it's not sounding dark. I know you at the time are struggling with unworthiness, but the way it's playing out in your life is you're learning tons of skills and you're hyper achieving. What I'm guessing is it sets you up for some real disappointments later. That's the real catch here. Unless there are other dark things about it at the time that you're not telling me or I'm not seeing.

Kyle Ashworth [01:17:21] No, I, and I, I'm trying to think of like an experience that was really dark and, and it really wasn't like.

John Dehlin [01:17:28] I mean it sounds like a great upbringing.

Kyle Ashworth [01:17:29] Honestly, it was a great upbringing. If you, my friends and I and, and really I attribute a lot of this to my friends who I think will at some point listen to this episode and just, and, and remark and, and remember a lot of the, a lot of our experiences. I was, there was a group of 18 of us that we were really close and a few of my friends have now come out, which is exciting. I wish I would have known that earlier. But even in that close knit group of friends there were a couple of us gay kids who were completely closeted and we spoke, not a word about it. But we did all the fun things. Like we were very engaged and very active in our community. We were all well known in the community not as the rich kids, the most popular kids, but just as a kids who, who were creating spaces that were. That people wanted to be around. We, we were the group of kids that, that always ran around together and, and some emulated us, others hated us. That was the great spot to be in. But you, yeah, you're absolutely right. There, there wasn't anything dark or monstrous about my upbringing. It was, it was all about putting things in compartments and burying them as deep and as unobtainable as possible. Because if I didn't have to face it, didn't have to look at it, didn't have to talk about it, then it didn't exist and I could just continue going on with normal life. But you're spot on in your analysis that all the things that I was doing in my life were giving me good opportunities. I felt like I was years older than I really was finding myself. I was working at a radio station that was broadcasting to the Salt Lake market, that I was 16 years old as an on air DJ at a radio station. I mean, who has those opportunities. I mean, I. I was working at a truck stop. 17 years old, late nights, doing graveyard shifts. And then getting up in the morning and going to school.

John Dehlin [01:19:29] Work ethic, integrity, character.

Kyle Ashworth [01:19:31] 100% there.

John Dehlin [01:19:32] All those things.

Kyle Ashworth [01:19:32] Yeah, 100% there.

John Dehlin [01:19:33] Friendships.

Kyle Ashworth [01:19:34] Social, social, social. Friendships with affluent people. It was just interesting. Like, because I was so involved in everything. I started making connections with all kinds of people. The human story was fascinating to me. Like, human experience was fascinating. Success was fascinating. Because I would look at the successes of people. My dad would always tell me, he said, a smart man learns some. Let's see, how would he say it? He'd kill me if I botched it. But he would say, a stupid man learns from his own mistakes. A smart man learns from the mistakes of others. So that mantra was really important to me. Because I just saw humans functioning in their environment. And would learn from the shadows what they were doing well and where they weren't doing things well. And just mentally, I was able to put that into a folder. And when the time came, I could use the experiences and stories of other people. To benefit my experience or benefit my life. I was also a connector. Like, I had the ability to, even though I was young, Connect people together in certain situations and certain experiences that allowed them an opportunity to create friendships or community relationships or even business relationships. And I felt like I had a new knack to that. And I didn't think I was anything special. I didn't think I was anything unique. I just felt like I had an ability to relate to people.

John Dehlin [01:20:59] So this is just a reflection point. But. But it's. It's personal to me. And so I'm just going to introduce it to you just as a pause point. But, you know, I'm. I'm. So. Obviously, I was excommunicated when a lot of my kids were teenagers. And a lot of them were, you know, in their early to mid teen years. And that. That basically ruined their church experience. So I was talking to my daughter Claire about this this morning. Because let's just say, on the one hand, you have the movie, the Matrix, the movie the Village, the movie Tangled. All these movies that have kind of the Truman Show, Pleasantville, they all have the same theme, which is that people are raised or find themselves in a world that's artificially constructed. That's not real. But it gives them hope and meaning and structure. And so they're able to kind of thrive within a box because of that structure. And. And, you know, if you look at Pleasantville. No, if you look at The Truman Show. Truman was living a super happy, positive, amazing life within that structure. And there was only one problem with the life. It said it wasn't real, but. But the structure was real in the sense that it gave you something to engage in, gave you social friends, it gave you connections, it gave you scouting, it gave you ability to do your talents. The whole civilization of Utah was built around this structure that may not be real real, but it was a structure that was very real. And so you've got this irony of, yeah, pushing down who you were, not doing a lot of that self discovery, hiding and feeling bad about who you were, but then thriving in the artificial structure that was contrived for you. And then you contrast that with, let's just say, a kid raised today who doesn't have Mormonism or a structure like it. Maybe it's an authentic, real upbringing, but maybe that kid can feel super lost, not have a lot of friends, not have a lot of focus, struggle with a lot of anxiety, depression, and that's not fun either. And so I'm really torn, and I wonder if you've ever felt torn about how amazing your upbringing sounds. With the only exception being that you weren't really connected to your authentic self, and then you were making a lot of really important life decisions on what some would argue is a false foundation. Do you get what I'm asking?

Kyle Ashworth [01:23:40] 100%. And I like where you brought up those. Those movies, because those are all very relatable. In fourth grade, I read Lois Lowry's the Giver, if you remember that book. It was about a young man named Jonah who was what was. So each of these communities were fabricated, controlled communities where people didn't feel emotion, they didn't see color, they only saw things in black and white. They didn't know the meaning of love. They were all these conditioned communities. And there was one person in the community called the Giver. And the Giver had all knowledge, which I don't know if Lois Lowry was intending on that book to be Jesus Christ being the Giver, but there was one person who, when the Giver was ready to die or pass his talents, he would choose another Giver. And that ended up becoming this young man named Jonah. This book changed my world as a fourth grader because I saw so much of myself in Jonah. I was Jonah. I felt like this whole world lived in black and white. And I saw color and I heard music and I felt emotion. And I could not convey that to everyone else around me. That's why the Giver was so Powerful to me. And I. I mean, I consumed that book. I think I probably read it at least a dozen times, just over and over and over again, which might be psychologically problematic, but the. The beauty in the book as well is that, like, Jonah busts out of this world and that he's then able to share his. He gives his knowledge to everyone. Like, he just. He disturbs the system. And that meant so much to me that there were Jonahs out there, because I absolutely felt like a Jonah. And to those listeners who are familiar with the Giver, I think that makes sense. And it would be a book, and I know in a lot of elementary schools it's required reading now, but it's a book that I highly recommend for those who feel like they're different. And it's a book I recommend to those in the LGBTQ community because it kind of gives you a sense of a society that's been controlled long enough, that controlled the belief that you are broken, that you're alone, that you're not worthy, that you're void of spiritual experiences and happiness, and that there's an opportunity to break out of that and find that there's another community out there ready to support you, and that you have the ability to change tomorrow and bring color into the lives of other people. That's what the Giver meant to me. So I understand that completely, and I know what you're. Yes, I empathize in that situation.

John Dehlin [01:26:08] I'm just saying you must feel conflict, like me. I think about my. My Mormon upbringing is being fantastic in so many ways. You must feel conflicted at all the amazing elements of your almost idyllic Mormon upbringing, to contrast that with kind of where it took you later.

Kyle Ashworth [01:26:30] Yes. And this has something to do with authenticity. This is the difficult part about being authentic. When you are in that space inside, you know who and what you are. The outside is a facade that has been created for the public to see. So all of my achievements, all of those grand things that I was doing, the multiple jobs, the good grades, the high scores, the scholarships into universities, all those were just the facade that I had created. If you really knew who I was, would you give me a scholarship? Would you give me a job? Would you want to be seen in public with me? Would you really want me? Because who I really am is what I've created you to see and created you to believe. And that's where we get into this problem with authenticity. When someone says, what is it like to be authentic? Being authentic is. And the comment, starting this Podcast episode was adulation. When someone would, would come to you and say, you're brilliant, you are a genius, you have been able to do this, this has been remarkable. I can't accept that because what you see and the products that you are, are adulating are just the facade that created that. Not really me. And that's the disconnect that's really hard in this space. And that's the disconnect that I had a hard time with. Even though I was, I was controlling so much of my environment and, and I really have some natural talents, I was just behind a curtain pressing all the buttons. And what you were seeing was Oz. And behind that curtain was just someone who was insecure and unsure of himself and not sure what was up, down, east, west, north, south. And that was a difficult part. And when we talk about coming out and authenticity and honesty, the coming out is not only breaking down those walls and ridding that, that facade, but it's also rebuilding all those things so people can believe that you are capable of building and creating the things that you did before. So it's a, it's a double edged sword and that is the crash that comes a little later in life.

John Dehlin [01:28:39] Yeah. Because if you're, if you're loved, but you're loved for not being you, you're loved for being some mirage that you're projecting back to other people of what they want you to be, you can't really experience love because all you're experiencing is people loving the projection that they wanted you to give them. Does that make sense?

Kyle Ashworth [01:29:00] It makes complete sense. And, and a listener is going to side with that because they, they know that not only have they been on both sides of that they have given love to inauthentic people, but they've also wanted love inauthentically. They, you often do things just to push the narrative forward in order to push the narrative forward and receive some of that connection. On the flip side, you have. Yes, you have, you have all those experiences that lead up to an eventual crash. It's not sustainable. Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:29:33] Those sets you up for a big fall 100%.

Kyle Ashworth [01:29:36] Because at the end of the day, my sexuality isn't going to change. And you come to that realization and, and then what I will refer to as the collateral damage principle, we can talk about later, where you look back and realize that in the wake of your destruction, you have collateral damage, which is a wife and children and co workers and employees and businesses and all these things that you have destroyed or created. Inauthentic method that had nothing to do with who and what you really are. And that is collateral damage and difficult.

John Dehlin [01:30:11] It's. It's kind of like building your house upon the sand. It crumbles because it's not built on the rock of authenticity.

Kyle Ashworth [01:30:19] Completely correct.

John Dehlin [01:30:20] And having a lot of. And having a lot of other people's lives impacted by the fact that you were encouraged to build your house on sand.

Kyle Ashworth [01:30:28] Yeah. And so my journey through this whole story, I mean it started as a young kid and a semi active to inactive family. And I'm raising myself through the church a little bit. I get a good group of friends who have been very beneficial to my well being. We all go on missions. I decide I'm going to go on missions. I had moved to a new community, another fresh start. I look back and I'm seeing like the benefit to my whole life has been fresh starts. I've always been able to reset. And when things got to the point where I was almost ready to crash, fortunately, due to circumstances sometimes beyond my own control, my parents would move and we'd move into a new area. So I was able to restart all over again, take what I'd learned previous and build again and realize that I didn't have to live in my mistakes anymore and I can move forward again. So the mission did that for me. I graduate high school, it should be for you.

John Dehlin [01:31:25] No, no, no. So I think let's go back because when you found that pamphlet, it was mission, marriage, children.

Kyle Ashworth [01:31:33] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:31:34] Right. Should we go back to that?

Kyle Ashworth [01:31:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:36] Mission, marriage, children.

Kyle Ashworth [01:31:38] And so clearly, like if this was the road, the road less traveled, then I needed to figure out how to best navigate that world. And I was, I graduated at 17 from high school. And when I was in those old days, you served a mission at 19. So I had a year in between my graduation and time that I would, that I needed to serve a mission. My parents were ultimately supportive of me serving a mission. I was also the oldest, so they. There weren't any other siblings for me to look back on. But I had planned on serving a mission because most of my friends had already went. I was among the youngest, the tail end of the youngest of the group of friends. And so I chose to go to school. I actually did get a scholarship to BYU that I had applied for. And in fact I had a number of scholarship opportunities. But because of my dad's occupation, he had paid into an endowment fund among the employees of the Utah Department of Corrections for a scholarship to Snow College, which was the local regional college at the time still a college. And because my dad had, he always talked about him dumping like $6 a paycheck into this endowment fund. And at the end of the each year, the employees, the children of the employees who were going to attend college could divide that money up and that's how it was paid. So I had a full ride scholarship to Snow College.

John Dehlin [01:33:11] Ephraim.

Kyle Ashworth [01:33:11] Ephraim yeah. In addition to, I'd received a couple local scholarships, also a scholarship at, at Snow. And then my dad's endowment fund through his through work meant that I could go to snow 100% free. It was close to home. I had a year. And it also would make my dad proud. So I went to Snow College for a year. I navigated that same, those same feelings, but also it was a fresh start. I jumped into school and actually hated it. I hated university, I hated college life. And a lot of that was because I just wanted to get, get on a mission and get home and do something with my, my life. I just didn't ever feel like my year at school was beneficial to me. I went to school. The other part of that were at Snow College. A lot of the professors that taught at Snow College were also my high school teachers. So it was interesting. Like they were, they were working part time at the high school and then the other part, they were doing night classes or something at the university. So there was a lot of, and some of the kids, some of the teachers that, that I had in elementary school, we're also now professors or teachers at this college at Snow College. So it just was all too familiar to me. There were just too many familiar faces. And I didn't do what I wanted to do at Snow College. I guess I also knew where my, I had my eye on the prize. I wanted to get on a mission. And Snow College wasn't a place for me to really date, to get into relationships because I knew like a lot of things weren't working. But I also wanted to have a little bit of a college life as well. So I mean, I did do a little dating. I went to some of the dances and balls, but it just, it was always a dissociative. I always felt disconnected at college. And my roommate in college was also the same kid that I sat in a car with looking at a playboy as an 11 year old kid. He was just a child, one of my best friends growing up, and he was also my roommate. And I remember laying one night in bed and he said, kyle, can I ask you a question? And my heart sunk. Because I knew exactly what he was going to ask me. And it was as if all the air had left the room. I couldn't move my arms. I was laying in bed petrified and panicked. Just the tone in which he was asking this question. Can I ask you a question? And I, I mean, just the weight of the world fell on me. And he asked me if I was gay. And it took all of the energy that I had left in my body to lie to him. Not because I was ashamed, not because I didn't have the honest answer, not that I was not prepared to give him the answer. I was more worried about what did I do? What in my character or what in my life would lead him to ask that question? I thought I had covered my trail everywhere I went. I thought I was doing everything possible to just keep this as closeted and hidden as possible. But I messed up somewhere. Like somewhere along the road, I had made a mistake. I wasn't worried about answering his question. I was trying to figure out in my mind the pressure, the weight, the sweaty that all was, what did I, that was me recalculating every step, re contemplating every conversation, trying to figure out where I made a misstep. And that crushed me. That was the. I have got to get on this mission and I have got to get moving. Like, I need to mission, marriage, children. This has to, I have to get rid of this as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] Did you ask him why did you ask me that question? What makes you think so? Did he give you any info on that?

Kyle Ashworth [01:37:10] No, and I said of course not. And I think I did say, like, why would you ask that? He's like, I just wondered. I do need to have that gaslit him 100%. Like, why would you even ask a question like that knowing what I know now? I do need to reach out to him and just ask just for my own personal. I need to know why. Like, where, what happened? Like, what, what were the steps?

John Dehlin [01:37:33] Well, let me ask you. I was, I was dying to ask you this right before, in all those teen years, had you ever tried to kiss a girl? Had you ever tried to be, have like a going together kind of girlfriend, boyfriend, relationship? Had you ever had a girlfriend, any of that?

Kyle Ashworth [01:37:51] Never had a girlfriend. I dated. So in high school, yeah, I, I, I took some girls to dates, to dances, and they were friends, like, and I didn't just, I didn't just ask people that were just random people that I thought would say yes. Like, there was connection, there was friendship connection there. And Never anybody that I was wanting to date long term. I didn't ask somebody out on a junior prom with the intent of hoping to spark a relationship. Just that that language wasn't there for me. The. The ability to. To naturally make a relationship work with a girl just didn't work for me. I just didn't know. Not only did I not know how to do that, I had no desire to make that happen. So I. I wasn't. It wasn't something that I needed to invest energy into because I just didn't feel like it was natural enough to want. And so I did. I did have. I had plenty of high school relationships, but never. Never a boyfriend, girlfriend relationship ever. Even going into college at Snow, I went on a number of dates. In fact, still, some of my. My Facebook friends today that we interact with were girls that I took on a couple dates, and I wasn't a prolific dater. I. I'm talking about, like, maybe three or four. And the whole time that it was at Snow, on a couple of dates, and then I had. I also wasn't that typical. The stereotypical gay guy who had all of his best friends were girls. The majority of my best friends were all guys who were all on missions, and we were riding back and forth. And in that space at that time, my best friends were guys. But also, in my defense to them, listening to this episode later, it also wasn't because all my best friends were guys. It wasn't because of crushes either. I don't remember if I. I really can't recall an opportunity where I felt like I was crushing on any of my best friends, because that wasn't the space I was in. I was Mormon, like, I was. I was not trying to grow this little demon that I felt was inside of me. I was doing everything I could do to avoid it.

John Dehlin [01:39:58] Packing it down.

Kyle Ashworth [01:39:59] Packing it down. Yeah. And it had no. I had no interest to date men, and I had no interest to date women. I just had interest in moving forward. And eventually I thought perhaps if this all went away, that I could just live a typical normal life.

Before the Mission: No Romantic Experience

John Dehlin [01:40:15] So it sounds like prior to your mission, you'd never fallen in love with a woman or a man, and you had never had any romantic experiences with anyone. Is that right?

Kyle Ashworth [01:40:24] Yeah. Yeah. No.

John Dehlin [01:40:25] And I'm thinking about my childhood. I was, you know, forgive me, I was making out with girls starting in seventh grade. You couldn't hold me back. Like, I had my limits. I was living the law of chastity, but I was having girlfriend after girlfriend after girlfriend making out with lots of girls. So, I mean, it could have been your friend just noticed that none of that stuff was a part of your life.

Kyle Ashworth [01:40:45] Yeah, the first girl I kissed was my wife.

John Dehlin [01:40:47] Wow, that's amazing.

Kyle Ashworth [01:40:49] Yeah, I just could not bring myself to do it. There was an element to that too. Just bringing up the church that I think might be familiar to other gay men. We use the church's doctrine as our cover. The sacred nature of women, like the ability to treat women only not as objects, but as daughters of God. That really played well into my scenario. Because when people are wondering why I wasn't interested in pornography, why I wasn't interested in scantily clad women or going to beaches or watching HBO's Real Sex, it was because I valued the sanctity of a woman. Like, I had used those churches teachings of chastity and understanding the value of a woman's personal worth for as much as the church teaches to my benefit. That way I could use that as great cover. And I do remember cognitively thinking of that, thinking that that's such an easy out for me because I have no interest in women at all. Therefore, I can just hide behind the church's teachings of chastity as my. The very reason why I'm this way. And it made a lot of sense. It made a lot of sense to me.

John Dehlin [01:42:03] Wow. Well, okay, so you're. So your friend asks you that question, you gaslight him, pack it right back down. But that increases. I mean, I can see why you were hating your freshman year. You weren't you. No, you were living some life other people had put you on and you were waiting like so many gay Mormon men. You know, there's always this idea that. These broken ideas that, oh, you're gay because your, Your parents didn't raise you right. Well, your parents were awesome, it sounds like. Right. Other than, you know, imperfect. But like, you had a great upbringing, your dad was involved and, you know, all those stereotypes about a distant father and an overbearing mother, none of that applies. Then there's the one that you're gay because you were sexually abused at some point, you know, and then there's the one where you're gay because you experimented and you masturbate. You know, even though all the heterosexual boys are masturbating somehow, you're gay because you masturbate or because you experimented in some way. And, and almost without fail, the people that I've interviewed on Mormon stories, none of those things, you know, even existed, let alone, you know, would be Attributable to who you just were from the very beginning.

Kyle Ashworth [01:43:20] Yeah. And, and you, and you brought that up like in those manuals. Those very things. An overbearing mother, a distant father, masturbation.

John Dehlin [01:43:29] And there's zero science for social science

Kyle Ashworth [01:43:31] for, by the way, 100%. Yeah, yeah, zero. Which is also the basis behind the conversion therapy programs, which is the reason why they have been outlawed and, and discontinued for those very reasons. They're, they're just not sustainable ideas. And so I triggered the one that I had to do the check mark on was the masturbation. Like that was the reason why I was gay. Yeah. I had fallen into those temptations. That little factory had started and I didn't know how to stop it and be until I could figure out how to stop it.

John Dehlin [01:44:00] You did it, you did to yourself.

Kyle Ashworth [01:44:01] I did it to myself, yeah. Because it absolutely wasn't an overbearing mother and a distant father. And so I was my own worst enemy. And those were things that I had to, had to work out through. So here I am in college again. Yeah, freshman year was just a tough year. I, I skated through, I burned through my dad's endowment fund. I enjoyed all the scholarships. I ate Totino's pizzas. Just, I, I experienced the university life. That, that was fun. Like I, I worked at the, the little library at Snow and it was a lot of fun because that's where I could study and also work at the same time. Part of my, part of my one scholarship required that I had to do some type of community service at the university. So I, I donated two hours and worked four hours. So it's like a six hour shift at the, the library, which was fun because I was able to meet some people. And I, I also, so yeah, going through the freshman year, my roommate and I were only a month apart in age, so we were both getting ready to leave on missions at the same time. So I really looked forward to that opportunity of finally just bagging university college life and moving on. And so I lived about a half hour away from campus and I do remember I didn't ever participate in church at college. And this might be a key point, this was a little bit of deception on my part because my, I do remember the elders quorum president and the bishop of my singles ward at college coming, stopping by and asking us why we weren't. I, myself and my other roommate who was a returned missionary, weren't going to church at all. Well, I was lying and saying I was going to my home ward when Really, I was. Most weekends I'd stay at school or go with friends somewhere. So I wasn't overly active in church even at that point, because I just felt like I just needed to get out of this. I felt kind of like church was a little bit of a shame game for me. That was still really triggering in terms of the doctrine. I just needed to get out into the mission field. And so I was just waiting for my mission. I was just waiting to leave on my mission. And so I do remember, and I don't know if that has any validity, honestly, I just do remember telling the. My bishop, who. I want to say even one of his counselors, he was one of the Osmonds. I can't remember the deaf Osmond.

John Dehlin [01:46:34] Alan.

Kyle Ashworth [01:46:35] Alan, yeah, Alan was. Alan was in our ward there in that singles ward. And his cousin, his nephew Shane was one of my friends. Shane Osmond was one of my friends in school as well. And I mean, yeah, just interesting connections. But I ended up doing most of my mission interviews. And in fact, all of my mission interviews with my homeward stake president had no real connection to any bishopric or stake presidency while at school. So a part of me wanted to. At some point, I had contemplated, as I moved to Ephraim, to come out to my bishop or stake president there in an interview, just to get that off of my back, feeling like I owed that to God to make that known to somebody. Because at this point, I hadn't told anybody. It was so buried that it was the demon that existed, this elephant in the room. But I hadn't given it a name, and I refused to acknowledge it. So I thought maybe this could be a good opportunity as I went to university, went to college, to have an opportunity to spill my beans. And I didn't. I ended up doing all my mission interviews with my stake president in my Nephi, Utah, stake. He did ask about masturbation, and I panicked. And he asked it in a way that allowed me to answer it humorously. He said, do you have a problem with masturbation? And I said, it works just fine. Seems to work just fine. And he chuckled just like you chuckled. And that was it. Like, we just moved on past that. He didn't elaborate further. And that was such a relief to me. It was as if the heavens opened. It was one of those opportunities that for me just meant the absolute world. Because that was something that I had beaten myself up over so much. And it wasn't even a prolific. Didn't even consider it a prolific problem. It was just one of those things that I had carried with me and the shame surrounding that had just eaten me alive. And in five minutes, so much of that was gone just by a little chuckle. And moving on to the next question. Yeah. President Kenison saved my experience in that very moment because I felt like for a second I could be 100% worthy to serve a mission. Because I really felt like that was the only thing that would have kept me from serving a mission. I hadn't, I hadn't done anything. I was completely chaste. And that that experience really ate at me. And so here, wrapped up in this whole burrito of shame where all these life experiences that I had ran from based off of an. Based off of something that I had started within myself that I later learned was very natural. And it was gone in just a couple minutes. And I ended up getting a recommendation to serve and put in my mission papers and I was called to the Michigan Lansing mission and I needed to report to the MTC in August. It was August 21st of 2001. And I was so excited. Like I was. I was excited to go anywhere, but I was excited to finally be able to begin this process of moving on with my life. And now after having that conversation with my stake president and getting into the mtc, I was completely little factory free. Like everything was. I just seemed like all the worries, like, I had no problems with masturbation. I had no problems with anything. I went into the MTC 100% ready to serve and I had a good MTC experience. I mean, just typical. I was English speaking, so I didn't have. I had a three week stay at the mtc. One of my friends from Nephi that I went to high school with, he was in the MTC at the same time I was. So it was nice to be able to see a friend every now and then. But he was the last of our big group of friends from high school that was going into the mission field. He was heading to Argentina and I was going to Michigan. And I jumped into the mission field, eyes wide open, ready to serve. 100% ready to serve.

John Dehlin [01:50:54] I love it. You know, this is going back just a tiny bit, but I'm thinking about. I just have to ask you about this. I'm thinking about that question your roommate asks you your freshman year if you're gay or not, and then what that does to your mind, to your fear, to your personality. From that point further, how could you not always be wondering, number one, are you doing anything else that would give someone that impression? And Then two, wondering what might happen if somebody else finds out. And, and. And then always trying to beat that back. I don't know, maybe I'm just imposing something onto you. But. But living after that question. The question is one thing, but living day to day afterwards, I could imagine it being something that could really weigh on you.

Kyle Ashworth [01:51:50] Oh, it changed me. It changed me in a number of ways. The question was hard because it. It forced me to. It forced me to analyze a section of my life that I thought I had covered my tracks well enough that I didn't have to revisit. And that aspect of it was difficult because it caused way too much retrospect that I now realized that I was wasting so much energy in double thinking and second guessing all of my decisions that it harmed me. And in fact, as you bring that up, and as I think of it, I wonder if that was part of my negative freshman year experience in school. Just the fact that I, instead of losing myself in my education and the experience, I lost myself in worrying about what other people thought of me and what I could do that might trigger, but also knowing that here was my roommate who were likely looking for additional signs. And so my relationship with him were also strained and that become different. So, yeah, that makes perfect sense. And it did. It took a lot of wind out of my cells because I lost a lot of forward momentum. When you think you're riding high and escaping, I mean, you're on the lam and it doesn't matter what happens, you're just moving forward and not a care in the world. But when those breaks hit, then it takes a lot of momentum to start back up again. Maybe it goes back to what we talked about earlier. Just the bandwidth, all that bandwidth that I spent now redoubling, tripling down on my efforts to be something that I wasn't. Took away a lot of energy that I could have used in other places.

John Dehlin [01:53:36] Yeah. Yeah, that's hard. I'm so sorry. So Lansing, Michigan is where Michigan State University is. The, the Fighting Spartans. I've been there actually. Well, and it's also like, you know, Michigan and the automotive industry. There's been a lot of poverty and, you know, job displacement and stuff. What was that mission like? Anything you want to share about that or.

Serving a Mission in Michigan

Kyle Ashworth [01:53:59] Yeah, it was a. It was a beautiful area, if the Midwest is beautiful, especially the moist and humid Midwest. Just green and lakes and rivers and just beauty all around. I served. The majority of my mission was in the northern part of Michigan. So rural backwoods Michigan, Uber are the uppers. Are they called Uppers. Yeah. Which is a play on the Up.

John Dehlin [01:54:27] They talk funny, right?

Kyle Ashworth [01:54:28] Oh, yeah. Say out of the U.P.A. yeah, the uppers. So the U.P. is the upper Peninsula, the abbreviation of. Of the Upper Peninsula. And so those are the Uppers. Eh?

John Dehlin [01:54:41] I worked at Arthur Anderson in Chicago, and for some reason they hired a lot of Ubers.

Kyle Ashworth [01:54:48] Y, O, O, P, E. And they

John Dehlin [01:54:50] had their own, like, identity. They were really proud of it. Oh, yeah, they talked super different and that's. I just remembered that out of the back of my mind, so I had to throw that in.

Kyle Ashworth [01:54:59] Yeah. So you. Yeah. So historically, the Upper Peninsula of Michigan is rich in copper. And so the Finnish Capper miners would come into the Upper Peninsula and lots of Finnish. And that's where that dialect comes from is. So as all these people immigrated into Michigan, the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and even into Canada to mine copper, that's the mix of Finnish and English creates that Midwest dialect. And as people filter down through. Through Michigan, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Minnesota, Chicago. That is a lot of that Finnish dialect that's coming through those original copper miners. So, yeah, Michigan didn't escape that the Up. In fact, there's a music band, kind of a satire, kind of a Weird Al band up there called the. The Yoopers. It is its own world up there. So I. I did serve a little bit up in the Up. I. I started in a little area called Hart, Michigan, which was just a fantastic little small branch of the church. Had good success there. My mission trainer was an Alaska native. He was not an Eskimo. We learned that in every appointment where someone would say, oh, you're from Alaska, you're an Eskimo, and how that was inappropriate. He was. He was an Alaskan native. Inuit. The. The mission was just a really. That portion of my mission was. Was really great. I served under a mission president that I thought for sure would become a general authority at some point. So I had a mission president the first half of my mission and the second half I switched out mission presidents from. From Hart. I moved to a little community called Houghton Lake. And Houghton Lake was right in the very center of the state. And it also had just escorted Vaughn J. Featherstone away as he excommunicated most of a branch in neighboring West Branch, Michigan.

John Dehlin [01:57:05] Is that a story worth telling?

Kyle Ashworth [01:57:06] Well, it's interesting because.

John Dehlin [01:57:10] What's the place called again?

Kyle Ashworth [01:57:11] West Branch. So West Branch branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. A little city called West Branch, Michigan there was within. And they had a nice little chapel in West Branch. It Seemed to be kind of the. Not even an economic hub. It was an area where there was a lot of Mormons, just a pocket of Mormons and there were a pocket of very devout orthodox Mormons who just couldn't toe the rope. They lived their own method of Mormonism and being in the middle of Michigan, away from Zion enough. They got a lot. They got away with a lot of weird orthodox teachings. Some of them along the lines of the Doctrine and Covenants and Word of Wisdom section 89. They refused to eat bread or flourish because it was not corn or wheat in its natural state, as the Doctrine and Covenant says. Ice was forbidden because it was water in its unnatural state.

John Dehlin [01:58:13] Oh no.

Kyle Ashworth [01:58:14] Yeah, they were. They were over the top weird. Just very orthodox. Super. Dan and I very. I mean what you would say like does not today just over the top.

John Dehlin [01:58:25] Just fundamentalist.

Kyle Ashworth [01:58:26] Fundamentalist, absolutely. And that. That was what the church had to deal with in West Branch. And so they. They jumped into West Branch to clean it up and gave.

John Dehlin [01:58:36] Were there. Was there polygamy, you think?

Kyle Ashworth [01:58:37] I. I'm not. I don't know of any polygamy, honestly. I'm almost certain something like that. There were, if not direct polygamy, some type of spiritual wifery was likely taking place. So Von J. Featherstone goes in and. And just sweeps through and clears out the West Branch excommunicates or disfellowships, a large portion of the branch which is essentially one or two families in this branch of 60 or so members. And they shut that branch down and open up a new branch 30 miles away. And I was called into that branch to open it up as a brand new. I had only been a missionary for three months and my mission president moved me into the Houghton Lake branch and said, you're going to open up a new branch with a new missionary. And here's the backstory about this area. Go to town. And we needed to form a branch presidency. We had to find a place to meet. The church did none of this. They just said, we're dissolving the West Branch branch. The members that are left over there, they're going to travel 30 miles into this new branch. There are a couple of members in this area to choose from. Assemble. Assemble a church.

John Dehlin [01:59:49] Were you branch president?

Kyle Ashworth [01:59:50] I was. So they came in and we rented this little apartment and this apartment was right on the main drag, but it had a little commercial building next to it. The commercial building was other apartments they just gutted and turned into open space. So they ended up. We cleared out this Commercial space, remodeled it and created a branch before that, until that happened, we were meeting in a member's home, a member who ended up becoming the branch president as well. We met in his little chalet. There were a handful of members, probably 10, 12. To me, this was Zion. This was. I mean thinking back into my jamboree days and learning the April 6, 1830 version of Mormonism. Six men in Palmyra, New York meeting together to form the church. I was having my own Palmyra moment as a three month old missionary. It was Zion to me. I was in full control really of this little branch. And it was really exciting because we were bringing Zion out of the dust and recreating something. And so it was fun. And so this area I served in for a year, my mission president parked me there and left me. So much so that I thought the next step in life was probably to run for mayor of this little city because I knew everyone, we had good experiences there. In fact, I'll share another fun experience of that little city we went to visit A. I rarely door knocked. The only time I ever door knocked was when I had a new missionary because the white handbook, number 17 in the white handbook was in methods to. To find people was door knocking and personal tracting. And so it was in the white handbook. So I would do it once when I had a new missionary. We ended up door knocking into a little family, an older couple, Basil and Grace Sierra Matero was their name. He owned a little muffler business, kind of like a Jiffy Lube. They did mufflers and oil changes in this little city. And then from there he and his sons had branched out and then franchised. But they were a great old Catholic couple who when we door knocked into him, they were super wonderful to let us in and, and always invited us to dinner, which we never accepted except on one occasion they were very Catholic. They were not, they were not prospects to get baptized into the church at all. But they were fun and they liked us and they lived right down the road. So one day they did, they did invite us in the summertime over for a dinner and they wanted, they were having a guest come to visit and they wanted us to meet him. And it was supposed to be just a don't push your religion on him and he won't push his religion on you. And we were excited to meet him and we went to dinner, had a great meal with this guy from New York, was the Sierra Matero's friend. And at the end of the meal after really a great Meal and a great opportunity to chat. We finally put all the connections together. His name was Tim. Tim Dolan from New York, who was the cardinal of Catholic Church. Oh, yeah, great friend. That's where I've heard that name, Cardinal Timothy Dolan. And here he was in this little. Houghton, Lake Michigan.

John Dehlin [02:03:24] So is this the story of the. Of the priest that was a pedophile?

Kyle Ashworth [02:03:28] No, no, no, no. Tim Dolan is still a cardinal.

John Dehlin [02:03:31] Oh, okay.

Kyle Ashworth [02:03:31] But at that same time, throughout my whole mission, that was definitely going on in the Catholic Church.

John Dehlin [02:03:37] Okay.

Kyle Ashworth [02:03:37] And I. Maybe Tim had. Cardinal Dolan had some influence and maybe one of the diocese or something, but he wasn't charged with anything. He's actually just a really great, sweet, gentle guy.

John Dehlin [02:03:49] So you've met him.

Kyle Ashworth [02:03:50] Met him, yeah. Without even knowing who he was. It wasn't until like the very. And. And I didn't even understand Catholicism enough to even. He wasn't portrayed as like, what we would consider an apostle in the church at all. I mean, that's his equivalency as an apostle in the LDS Church. And I had no idea who he was. I just. The name had finally clicked for a second, like, oh, Cardinal Timothy Dolan. Like, that makes sense. And the reason why it clicked was months prior, September 11, 2011, happened on my mission. And I just remember what little we were able to watch in tv. I do remember that name and just a little bit of that discussion at the same time. I remember Hinckley going on TV a lot. And it seems like I remember Hinckley also giving a prayer during the National Day of Remembrance or something at that point. So there was a little mention of Hinckley in the news around 9 11. There was also some mention of Cardinal Dolan, especially because Michiganders are predominantly Catholic. So a little further down that road, though, the Catholic scandals were happening. The priest pedophilia scandals were happening. So much molestation going on and uncovering that we would track deliver copies of the Book of Mormon or a Bible to someone. We'd always ask them what religion they were, and they would, more times, more often than not, would say, well, we were Catholic. We don't know what we are right now. During that whole scandal, which was interesting to us because I thought, here's our play. If we really want to get in and teach a lot of these Catholics, then this is our opportunity. Beat them while they're vulnerable. And so my companions and I, we attended Catholic Mass a couple times just to become more familiar with the Catholics in the area and had great success, competitive Research. Yeah. I had more success baptizing the Community of Christ members than I did the Catholics. But that little city was fun. Like we. We were able to grow the church into a branch. And I want to say today they're award. I'm almost sure that they're award. They have their own building now. And most of the old heimers, all of the original leadership, have all passed away. Some of the old women that were old then are still alive and kicking somehow, which were dear friends and I made good friends with. There was a senior couple, missionary. Senior missionary couple that come in that I helped train them. They become just sweet friends as well. Multiple companionships after a year. I mean, I was there so long that I. And I was training. Just so many new missionaries were coming in and out that it was. It was a fun area. It was. It was a good area to grow and learn in.

John Dehlin [02:06:37] Yeah, I'm just going to say on my mission, I was branch president twice. And one of the two times I was called to open up an area, start up a branch and then build it. And then, you know, it became its own ward and had its own chapel someday. And, well, like, what an amazing opportunity. Again, going back to this theme of high school. What kid at age 20 or 21 gets such a phenomenal leadership opportunity to create lifelong lasting memories? That's a. That's a cool experience.

Kyle Ashworth [02:07:09] And it's all part of this validation too. Like this self validation. So maybe I'm not as far off as I think I am. And it was beautifully meaningful to me, and I really just moved forward with the rest of my mission with that same attitude. It also has this prideful, unstoppable aura to it too, which is also notable when you become more powerful than you think you are. That has its. That's had. That has its side effects and repercussions as well. But from Houlton Lake, I moved to northern Michigan to the very top of the Lower Peninsula, an area they call the Straits of Mackinac, which is where there's a bridge that connects the Upper Peninsula and the Lower Peninsula. And I just served right at the very top of that area called Sheboygan, a city called Sheboygan, which then allowed me to cover the up that Upper Peninsula, a little city called St. Ignace, which was just fascinating. There was another island there called Mackinac island, which is a big tourist area that was in my area. So I met a wide variety of good Mormons up there, also crazy Mormons. I learned about how mission presidents are called a Branch president up in that area who was cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs, just wanted to be everything in Mormonism. Wrote letters, tried to buy influence. He wanted to be a mission president so bad his teeth ached and spent his whole life just trying. I mean, even during the whole Von J. Featherstone experience, he infused himself into that whole disaster just to be on the radar. And he always just kept saying, like, there are such. There are excellent saints out here in the mission field and the church just doesn't know about us because we haven't made ourselves known. And I always balked at him because that's not how people are called. People are called of God by authority and by revelation, not by peddling your influence. Little did I know. And so here was this branch president in this branch who taught me all about peddling influence. And the more he would explain to me how the handcarts are pushed all the way to Zion, the more I fought back against it because that was not the Mormonism that I knew. So Sheboygan was an interesting experience for me because I saw through this branch president, the inner workings, in his opinion, the inner workings of how the sausage is made in Mormonism. And it was just fascinating.

John Dehlin [02:09:36] Did the guy get called as a mission president?

Kyle Ashworth [02:09:38] Never did.

John Dehlin [02:09:39] Oh, okay.

Kyle Ashworth [02:09:40] No, never did.

John Dehlin [02:09:40] Okay.

Kyle Ashworth [02:09:41] He ended up buying a home in Salt Lake as a vacation home so he could stay closer to 50 North Temple. I mean, just all the things all. Again, think of all the wasted bandwidth, all the things that he could have done in his life. But he spent it all trying to become a general authority or a mission president or anything, anything greater than a former branch president of a Northern Michigan branch. And that also hurt him. Like I do. I didn't have fond experiences with him, but I do empathize, and I agonize a little in his pain because he clearly, he had potential and clearly he was probably qualified for a lot of things. But because he didn't live close to Mecca, he was denied a lot of those opportunities. And he was one that. I mean, we talk about him praying over the kitchen table about becoming the prophet of the church. Like, he just knew in his heart he was going to be the prophet. And so it was sad to watch him in his pain. But at the same time, it was easy for me to say, when you aspire to callings like this. I mean, I remember Mormon ads that talked about people like, you aspire higher, not in your callings, but in your ability to do good things. And so I always just thought he sowed his own oats. So this is his opportunity to reap his benefits.

John Dehlin [02:11:00] Fascinating. Okay. Anything else about your mission before we.

Kyle Ashworth [02:11:04] Kind of no, other than the second part of my mission or the second half of my mission was with a new mission president that proved to be fairly influential in my life. He and I become really, really close in the mission field. Not uber close as best friends, but we just developed a friendship. He also knew to trust me and I become a missionary that would take care of a handful of problematic missionaries. Also had leadership callings throughout the mission. Never an AP zone leader multiple times. But I trained, I trained. I don't even. I think I maybe trained eight or 10 new missionaries, which was significant in a stateside mission to have an influx of that many new missionaries. Had a couple, a handful of missionaries that were tough, that didn't want to work, but stayed on their mission, and then just spent a lot of my time training missionaries to be better missionaries. I was a member missionary worker. I had success, a high number of baptisms, good success in the mission field. But a lot of that was just learning to work with members and teaching the missionaries how to work with members, teaching the missionaries to be normal human beings with the ability to connect with other humans. They come. The Ballard had also changed. The bar to missionary service has been raised during that part of my mission, and we're looking for higher and better, more well qualified missionaries. I was among that group of missionaries currently serving that then had to weed through the new missionaries that were coming out. And so in my mission, the bar had already been raised. Like if we were to increase numbers and baptize more, we had to do it more effectively. And by effective work, it was bagging the door, knocking, getting rid of the rope, memorization of discussions, and all of the garbage that the church had created to put all the soldiers in line. And if we really wanted to effectively baptize people, we needed to treat people like humans and we needed to speak at their level and we needed to treat them with respect. We needed to honor their lived traditions. And these, those are all things that I tried to help new missionaries understand that it wasn't just running into an area. And Bruce R. McConkie has something called my mission commission that we had to recite every morning. And that mission commission said that our authority is above that of the kings of the earth, that we are called of God to say and do the very same things Christ would say if he were here personally ministering to the people by which we were called to serve. And that's super prideful. When you read through that mission commission because it essentially says a number of things that are harmful. That if I say something as an authority, as a missionary, it is as if God was saying those things. That is my mission commission. That is what happens when you're called and set apart as a missionary. So that, that idea was really prevalent in our mission. That. No, I said it as a missionary. It was as if God said it. And that that level of pride and when you knocked on a door, it was almost the dusting of your feet type mentality in the mission. And so a lot of that we had to break, break down and just get rid of and say we're not, I mean we are not baptizing people with, with lemonade here. We have to bring them in with honey and we have to teach them at their level and get to understand their religion a little bit and side with them. That's why that Hinckley quote about allowing people to bring with you the good parts of your religion and allow us to add upon it, see if we

John Dehlin [02:14:31] can add to it.

Kyle Ashworth [02:14:31] That was my methodology and doing that was working with members because I knew members had friends. And if friends were members with or if there were people who were friends with other Mormons, that meant that the fact that the religion alone wasn't enough to run away, so therefore that they were already preconditioned to find some favor in, in Mormonism. So finding friends who were friends of friends was a good opportunity for us to, to teach. And, and I use that network pool just like every good multi level marketing system was designed to exploit. And that's how I was able to, to effectively teach people. Not that what I thought was at that time a sham, but it was just the method that I used to become an effective missionary and to be able to share the messages as best possible. So during that experience I just become good friends with my mission president. And we ended up, we'll get to the part a little later. But ended up creating a friendship that lasted long beyond the mission field. And so that was, it was just a good opportunity to not only serve spiritually, but get to become temporally and on a more friendship level friends with a person of authority like your mission president.

John Dehlin [02:15:54] And are you not using his name? And I'm supportive either way.

Kyle Ashworth [02:15:58] Oh yeah. My mission president was Scott Gardner. The first one, my first mission president was Kenneth Church.

John Dehlin [02:16:03] Okay. And then the second one was.

Kyle Ashworth [02:16:04] And he's kind of from this like the Mill Creek area. Yeah. So President Church was my first mission president. Kenneth. Kenneth Church was My first mission president. And then Scott Gardner was my second mission president.

John Dehlin [02:16:16] Okay. Anything else about the mission?

Mission President's Pressure to Date and Marry

Kyle Ashworth [02:16:18] No.

John Dehlin [02:16:19] Oh, were you trying. I guess I want to make this explicit. Did you go into a mission with the understanding, I think you've already told us that if you're super faithful missionary that maybe God would take your gayness away?

Kyle Ashworth [02:16:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:33] And was that, was that conscious? Well, did you, did you have that impression? And then was that conscious or kind of unconscious?

Kyle Ashworth [02:16:40] It 100% was my experience because. And when you say, is that everything on the mission? Yes, because now I want to tell you about sitting in the airport, sitting in the airplane at the Salt Lake City airport, because I completed my mission, served honorably for all intents and purposes, like had a really great mission. Like I. There are not many mission rules other than ditching my area to go to Hell, Michigan for a photo op and some ice cream that I there. I didn't break any mission rules, like super faithful, super faithful, super, super obedient. So I felt like, I mean, there were plenty of opportunities that I looked back saying if I would have done something differently, an outcome would have been remarkably different. But I didn't have any long term or overall regrets about serving. I get home, I get on the airport and I think I left out of Lansing, fly into Salt Lake City. Sitting on the airplane, sitting in the airplane. And it hit me like nothing I'd ever felt before. I'm still gay. Like, it was so profound that here I had spent and both cognitively and then maybe incognito, and knowing that my mission was designed to rid me of my sexuality or at least help me overcome it in my mind that here was that moment where I got off of the airplane and I was supposed to feel something different. And, and there were, there were maybe some. There were some points throughout my mission where I just check in with myself and try to say, am I, am I completely rid of this? Do I still have those thoughts or feelings and when they were still there, or I'd bring them up, I just know that I have to work a little harder, do something a little bit, do something more that would hide those feelings or bury them or distract me from them. When I got off the airplane, I'm sitting in the Salt Lake airport, walking through the concourse, just replaying this in my brain. I'm still gay. And in fact, I remember saying to myself as I got off the plane, damn it, I'm still gay. And I don't ever swear ever. But that was the first thing that came to my Mind as I stepped over the threshold onto the sky bridge at the airport. Like, it was as if the airplane was still my mission, but the skybridge was Utah, and I had stepped into Utah out of the mission field, and I was still gay. And as I'm walking and this is the old part of the Salt Lake airport, which isn't from the. From the skybridge of concourse down into the area to meet your family, wasn't much of a jaunt at all. So there wasn't a lot of time there. But I do remember coming down the escalator and not wanting to disappoint my family at all, but just knowing that I gave my mission everything and that zero regrets, just no regrets. And I was ready to move on. But it was down that escalator, about halfway down the escalator that I had this epiphany. And it was the pamphlet again. Mission, marriage, children. For the first time, it had dawned on me I was only a third of the way there. I'd only served my mission. If this was to go away completely, marriage was two thirds, and children was the full gamut. That's why. And so immediately, halfway down this escalator, I was alive again. I hadn't had to worry about it. I was only a third of the way there. So there I was. It was an opportunity to re. Embrace just like opportunities that I had in my past. It was a new leaf.

John Dehlin [02:20:12] It's like the horse of the donkey with the carrot. You know that carrots just being dangled. It's like, oh, just a little more. If I just keep going a little more, I'll get that care. I don't mean to be glib or, like being make, but that's kind of what comes to my mind.

Kyle Ashworth [02:20:26] Oh, what tangled webs we weave.

John Dehlin [02:20:27] Yeah, yeah. Just a little more, Kyle.

Kyle Ashworth [02:20:29] Just a little more.

John Dehlin [02:20:30] A couple more years.

Kyle Ashworth [02:20:31] But isn't that Mormonism? Like, isn't that what we're taught in the church?

John Dehlin [02:20:34] I call it the hamster wheel of worthiness. Right?

Kyle Ashworth [02:20:37] Yeah. And I. And I call it the. The rocking chair philosophy. And I'll talk about this later a lot because I. I do it with a lot of people that I talk with in the LGBTQ space, but it is sitting in a rocking chair, rocking back and forth, expending all of your energy. It's like. And I say worry is like trying to get somewhere in a rocking chair. All of that energy. When you're finally tired and exhausted, you stand up and you didn't go anywhere. You're still in the exact same position that you started in. And that's kind of this whole methodology.

John Dehlin [02:21:07] It's a hamster wheel.

Kyle Ashworth [02:21:08] It's a hamster wheel, right?

John Dehlin [02:21:09] All that energy spinning, spinning, spinning.

Kyle Ashworth [02:21:11] When you fall off, you're dizzy, you're nauseated, and you're still in the same spot again.

John Dehlin [02:21:15] Yeah, you went nowhere.

Kyle Ashworth [02:21:17] But here I was heading down the escalator and I had to embrace my mom. And I was excited to see my family again. But really the last thing on my mind at that point was sexuality, sexuality, sexuality. Like I wasn't, I wasn't fixated on that. I was excited to be home. I was excited to get back into school and just really begin my life again. Because I knew what.

John Dehlin [02:21:40] That's one third.

Kyle Ashworth [02:21:41] Yeah, I knew what that second part looked like. And I had zero interest in. In looking forward to it. Scary, actually.

John Dehlin [02:21:49] Why?

Kyle Ashworth [02:21:51] Because I had no desire prior to my mission of dating, long term dating. So that was pretty ingrained in my brain that I didn't feel like I was ever compatible. I didn't feel like I was good at dating. I didn't feel like I ever was taught how to date. All these things start rolling through my brain. So. I previously mentioned that I worked for a radio station. The radio station that I worked for had been purchased by a new owner. So the original gentleman that I worked with, my original boss that I worked with, had purchased another radio station in the far out distant land of Vernal, Utah, in the middle of nowhere. And he kind of was a. He wrote me throughout my mission. Just kind of a general, just super friendly, how are things going? Like, we had created a good friendship while I worked for him at his radio station. We just kept in touch. He'd become a much more prolific writer the last six or eight weeks of my mission because he knew I was getting close to coming home. He also knew I was in between semesters of college. So he offered to give me a job at his radio station. And I moved out to Vernal five days after coming home from my mission in order to go work for this radio station. In between semesters of school. I planned on going to BYU and attending law school. There was my ultimate goal that I really had kind of planned and prepared for. So I moved to Vernal five days after coming home from my mission and moved in with his family, which were. They were super gracious in giving me a couch to crash on and a place to stay. And in there I started, I attended the family ward. So you come home from a mission, you're on that spiritual high. But also I was in this weird space too, where when you leave a mission and when you jump, when you come home from that mission high. My mission president warned me about it on my exit interview. Just how you're on cloud nine at this point and really excited about moving forward. And when cloud nine kind of disintegrates, where you fall is where the rest of your life will become. And so it was important for me to try to maintain activity in the church. But how do you replace 24 hours a day, seven days a week? Mormonism. I really struggled with that because as a missionary, all of your waking hours has something to do with the work. And then when you come home, it's a structure. Yeah, it is the structure. When you come home, there is nothing that supports you. You're expected to jump into school, get a job as if your life hadn't stopped before. You're just supposed to pick up all the pieces and move forward. And so I tried my best to do that, but part of my history prior to that was the fact that I had bouts of inactivity throughout my life. And if I didn't have to attend Sunday services but still maintain a good relationship throughout the week and my life was still okay, like the sky didn't fall and happiness still befell me, why were Sundays so important? And so I kind of quickly got into this routine of I was attending a family ward, not the singles ward on purpose, but I attended the family ward, but then sporadically would say, I'm going back to Nephi to visit my family. And I was attending church there for most Sundays. That was the truth. But a lot of Sundays I wasn't. I would go home and we wouldn't go to church at all because my parents weren't active in church. So even though I was heading to Nephi, visiting with my family, I wasn't going to church every week. And this actually was a great plan for me because I wasn't ready to date. I wasn't ready to get thrown into a singles ward and jump into marriage. So staying in a family ward without having my records moved into the meat market was beneficial to me. But that only lasted for so long. And I got a knock on the door from the singles ward bishop, and he said, hey, your bishop sent over your records to the singles ward, and we're your new bishopric. We want to welcome you into the ward. And my heart kind of sunk because that was like two thirds. I now realize this is the next step into the next stage. Of my experience, and am I ready for that? Like, how. How am I going to date? How am I going to. If I choose not to date, how am I going to keep everyone away? Like, how am I going to not put myself in a. In a position that appears to be dateable, but at the same time, not out myself? And it was really tough space, unfamiliar space. And it's space that, as straight, cisgendered Latter Day Saints, you have a difficult time understanding because everything surrounding a ward or branch or the structure of the church is focused or centered around heteronormal relationships. Who are you dating? Let's do linger longers. Bring a date. We're going to do group date nights. Elders quorum talks about dating. Relief Society talks about dating. The role of the presidency or the bishopric was to bring those relationships together. We called it paroling. When someone from the singles ward would finally get engaged, they'd parole out of the singles ward, get married, and off they went into their own family ward. So a lot of those things that we see not only in lessons in the structure of the church are also geared to a heteronormal experience. And then we do them subconsciously. We do them just because when we talk about dating or fast and testimony meetings about spouses or. I mean, I love my wife. She's been with me for 30 years. All those things are all heteronormal experiences. None of them are homosexual experiences. And so there's this great disconnect that still exists. And I didn't know how to navigate that world because none of those. I value a good relationship. I value a healthy, a familial relationship, for sure. Like, I saw that with my parents. And so for those who had it, that's joyous, but that's not something that I could see myself getting into. I also wasn't like Kinsey Scale 6 gay either. There was some part of me that felt like I could at some point get married to a woman. I just didn't know how to. How to bust into that world. So I started developing friendships in the singles ward. I opened up a business, and I need to back up because I want to bring my mission president back into this. Because shortly after I moved to Vernal, I got a call from my mission president, who was still currently serving, and he said, hey, you're in vernal, right? Because I think I'd written him or he had touched base as soon as I got home to make sure I made it. Home grooming? No, just. He just. Great guy. We could edit that out, but just a great guy. He just wanted to touch base. I let him know where I was heading. I was heading to Vernal. And he then reached out and said, my brother is going to give you a call. He's a real estate developer in the Salt Lake area and he's going to offer you a job. And I said, oh, doing. And he said real estate development. So he said, we have a couple opportunities in the area and we need someone on the ground. Would you be interested? And the way it was presented didn't sound like I had a gigantic choice. But I was also living there in between semesters at school, nothing else going on. And it was a welcome opportunity to work with my mission president again, more on a secular level, not on a spiritual level. And I was happy to move forward. So that kind of connection started and started a chain of events. The singles ward that was happening. I was just a few, I mean, maybe two months or so that I had. Was in the family ward and then went into. Over to the singles ward. So I'm beginning to create some friendships. I open up a business at the same time, an auto detailing business that I basically just moved into this area was bored out of my gourd, doing radio in the morning and then nothing in the afternoons. So that was really kind of my life. I ended up opening up an auto detailing business just to give me something to do. But it also. It gave me. It gave me some good money, some good cash on the side and allowed me to buy fast cars, kind of show off that kind of the secular lifestyle. That was fun. And to a group of a bunch of returned missionaries and single adults, it was the life I really had. Just kind of created a great little opportunity. Meet a wide variety of people in the singles ward, one of which was a girl who seemed to like me and we had some connections together and I kind of liked her back. Like we. We didn't ever. In fact, our friendship really started with just a genuine friendship. Just getting to know each other, doing fun things not only as a group, but eventually started pairing off into individual dates. And I want to say that it was Oaks that came out with a talk saying that it was a discussion about singles, young, single adults not dating and saying that they were spending way too many. I think it was called like Sisters of Zion or something. They were spending way too much time with the sisters as friends, not as in dating relationships. And one key line in that talk was that it was the admonition to the sisters to lock the pantries and Quit feeding these returned missionary men and prevent them from coming over just for food and for leisure. But say that if they want to spend time with you, they have to do it on a date. And so that was kind of like a push for me here. We'd spent all this time as friends, in fact, I mean, for months now, as friends with a handful of these girls in the singles ward, and it was time to really date. And so that talk pushed me into dating. And we, as guys, we made our own. And I know one of my friends still has a copy of this, but we made our own proclamation, our own parody of that talk and the reasons why we were not dating the sisters. It was because they wouldn't give us signs. They weren't telling us that they were dateable. They weren't telling us if they liked us enough. Like, it was not mutual. So if the. If the sisters wanted us to date them, they needed to do their part, too, and show interest. Well, there was one that showed interest, and she was super interested in me. So much so that she worked for an eye doctor, and I worked at the radio station still. And so our co workers, my co hosts on the radio station, heard the physicians, the optometrists that worked in their office, they conspired together via a radio station promotion that we were running. And I think it was like, dinner and a movie or something. Well, my coworkers conspired to make sure that she won it. And the dinner that they were giving away that I found out in that very moment was. It was dinner and a movie with me. That's what the radio station was giving away. And it was just this. It was supposed to be just dinner and a movie gift certificate. Well, on air, they turned it into, whoever wins this has to go on a date with Kyle because he's single, and he's been working at the radio station now. And we know he's single, and he needs a date.

John Dehlin [02:33:49] He's a menace to society.

Kyle Ashworth [02:33:51] I'm almost Brigham Young's menace to society. I mean, I'm at the ripe old age of 21 and a half at this point. So they conspired together to get Jamie and I on a date, and they fax over her application, which was the opportunity to get a date. And I asked her out on a date via my coworkers, and that was kind of the official. So that kind of began a friendship that turned into a relationship, and it kind of scared me to death because I didn't know what it was like to be in a relationship. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't feel. I didn't feel like I was completely, boom, into this relationship. I always thought that everything you see on TV and everything you see about relationships are fireworks and falling in love. Falling in love. Yeah. I mean, I, I watched all the, the best soft focused Hallmark films and, and I wasn't in that space. But then I also knew what Mormonism taught me, and that was like. But the shoulders of the wheel, like, just get in. And there are no perfect marriages and life is sometimes hard. And, and so that part of that played in the back of my mind. And, and it was something that I, I stressed over a little too much, but also just gave Jesus the will and just said, stressed over.

John Dehlin [02:35:10] I'm just stressed over too much. Like you were, you were, you were about to do something that you really had. No, I mean, I'm not judging retrospectively, but there's a part of my mind that's saying you were about to do something you had no business doing because you didn't want to do it.

Kyle Ashworth [02:35:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:26] And so you're. So you're psyching yourself up to do something that you should have never done because you didn't want to do it.

Kyle Ashworth [02:35:33] Yeah. And people will say, like, well, how do you get yourself into that situation? Like, how. Or how can some people in mixed orientation marriages make it work? Or how can gay people marry straight people? The psych is that I very literally was told, you need to fly. And I'm a snake sitting here saying, but I don't have wings to fly. How. How can I fly when I was not created to fly? And, and everyone around me was just saying, you just do it, you just fly. And that was a dichotomy that was really difficult for me. I just didn't completely understand it. But also at the same time, it wasn't, it wasn't something that I was trying to not avoid. I mean, I wasn't completely avoiding the opportunity to date. I really did want to date. I really did want. I wanted to be two thirds done with this process. And so if that's what it takes to get 2/3 down the road, I will try to fly. Even though I'm a snake. Probably not the best analogy. I needed. I needed to fly. So I did my very best and I, I went on a number of dates. I remember taking Jamie to my parents home and we were heading down to St. George, I think, for a softball tournament. And on the way home, we stopped in and my mom was elated to See that I'd come home with a girl like elated, over the top. I would have been, she would have been the first daughter in law. She was so excited. And then I remember her trying to navigate this world the very best. Is she just a friend? Is she something more than a friend? You don't have to tell me these things. It's just really sweet and kind the way that she was. But she was clearly excited that her son was finally dating.

John Dehlin [02:37:13] Who doesn't want to make mom happy, right?

Kyle Ashworth [02:37:15] I know. And I. And that also fed into that ability to like, okay, I'm doing it right. I guess. Like, and not only do I not want to disappoint myself and God and all the, the time that it took to get me to this place today, but I can't disappoint mom. And clearly I've got someone now that I'm falling in love with and creating a relationship with and I have to do everything to not disappoint her as well. So we date and I think, I mean we were friends for close to a year and then we start dating and I can't remember exact times, but I would guess that we probably dated six months. Ish. So in BYU terms, I mean we were forever. Yeah, we were nine and a half months late in our engagement. I did call my mission president at this time I'm working for them full time and still have the radio station job and was really tough battling and the business. So again, here's my super busy, yeah, three ring circus all over again. And so I called my mission president, told him that Jamie and I were getting to the point where it was serious and I was thinking of getting engaged. He said, perfect, my sister in law is a jeweler so let's, let's get a ring. So I did. I met with his sister in law and I picked out a gigantic diamond way above what I could afford thanks to the family discount. Like, but just, it was a, it was just a. My physical show of my inness to the relationship because I couldn't do it mentally, I did it physically.

John Dehlin [02:38:59] Well, you didn't feel it internally, so you had to find a way to manifest it externally, visually, to others.

Kyle Ashworth [02:39:10] And it really didn't dawn on me what I was doing until years years later after I'd unpacked a lot of baggage that I realized like that meant because I knew how important it was for me to get a really showy gigantic diamond for some reason that was just in my toolbox. Like that was something I had to do. And that's why it was part of my process of mentally unpacking all of that and knowing that there were plenty of things that I couldn't give her. I'd already resigned myself to the point that I knew I could never give her 100%. I could also never tell her who and what I was for a number of reasons. One was, if this all goes away, why tarnish our marriage? If I tell her that I'm gay, or at least have at that point, same sex attraction, then what does that do to the future of our relationship? Every time we a guy walks by, does she second guess and wonder if I'm interested in him? Every time something happens, does she assimilate that, assimilate that or, or make a parallel that that's just my husband being gay again? Like all those things weighed on my mind. So I stayed completely closeted to this point. I had told nobody, nobody in my whole life knew what I was going through.

John Dehlin [02:40:22] Not one person.

Kyle Ashworth [02:40:23] Not one person ever, Ever. Not even. Not even. I mean, when my roommate. The closest I ever had to this conversation was my roommate in college. And not a soul knew a thing about me. There were plenty of times that I wanted to release that baggage. Do you remember watching the Green Mile, John Coffey, where he inhales people's problems and exhales them as like flies? That.

John Dehlin [02:40:49] Yeah, yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [02:40:50] That experience played over in my dreams so much that how did it relate? I wanted. I wanted. It was a twofold relation. One was my whole life I felt like I was John Coffey. Like I was able to take everybody else's pain and everybody else's experience and everybody else's inadequate, inadequate experiences and traits and inhale them and then spit them out into something better and broader. And if that were just making connections or helping people embedder their lives, that was my John Coffey experience. Like, that's who I felt like I was destined to be. Like this helper, this giver. Back to the giver. Lois Lowry book. The flip side to that is I begged for John Coffey. I begged for somebody to take my pain, somebody to inhale my darkness and exhale it into something that would benefit

John Dehlin [02:41:41] the world again, which is what Jesus role is supposed to be.

Kyle Ashworth [02:41:44] Connections. Yeah. Those are all things that I had connected. And so I wanted that John Coffey moment with that relationship. I wanted to get into the relationship and have that just all sucked out of me and blown away. And I quickly learned that it wasn't going to happen. And I'm now I sat down on one knee, I proposed to a girl. She said yes, and we are now preparing for a marriage. And I didn't get married with the intention of deceiving my wife, not even for a second. I got married with the intention of deceiving myself because I thought the marriage would be a good opportunity to change who and what I was. But it had nothing to do with using her as a pawn to change me. It wasn't the wife in the situation that was supposed to get rid of my sexuality. It was the marriage in general. It was the commitment that I. And when we make commitments in Mormonism, it is not necessarily to myself and my spouse, is to God, angels and these witnesses, like our temple. Marriage meant that my commitment was to God, the gospel, and giving of my time, talents, and resources for the benefit of the church. That was what this new and everlasting covenant is. And so it was easy for me to look at my relationship and say, I am not deceiving her. I'm not deceiving myself. I'm upholding the foundation of the church.

John Dehlin [02:43:12] You're living the gospel.

Kyle Ashworth [02:43:13] I'm living the gospel. And this is just my lot in life. This is my opportunity to. We all were born with trials. This is my trial. And I'm just going to put my shoulders to the wheel and haul this handcart all the way to Zion. And that was the reason why I got married. It had nothing to do with deceiving my wife. It had a little bit to do with moving forward and owning who and what I was. And so I remember in the ceiling room, my mission.

John Dehlin [02:43:45] Can I just say one thing? I want to come right back to the ceiling room. I just want to drill down on one thing and kind of highlight something. So, you know, I'm thinking about what it was like as a very straight man to be dating a woman that I was thinking about marrying. And it's all about, like, making out, but then trying not to go too far and then trying not to have sex before you get married. And like, this dam of emotions of, like, trying to make it to the finish line before you have sex. Right? That's. That's being married. That's. That's being engaged. As a straight Mormon returned missionary male who's 21, 22, 23. What's it like for a gay man in that same scenario? And to what extent, and this is kind of the part, does the law of chastity provide this cover where you're doing something that's leading you and your wife into a Potentially very, very sad and dark place. But it's all masked as virtue because what you're doing in effect is quote, living the gospel and being chaste. And that's. There's a sinister, this. Not an intentional sinisterness on your part, but there's this weird perniciousness where it's this guise of righteousness that's leading both you and your wife into a place that won't necessarily be good for either of you or your children.

Kyle Ashworth [02:45:13] Very real. Like a familiar territory.

Dating and Getting Engaged as a Gay Man

John Dehlin [02:45:16] So what was it like dating as a gay man or being engaged as a gay man?

Kyle Ashworth [02:45:20] That's the hard part.

John Dehlin [02:45:21] And you're supposed to. I'm sure your wife's going, when is he gonna make out with me? Why aren't I pushing him off? Like, why aren't we having. You know, is she just thinking, he's not into me, or is she thinking, wow, he's super righteous? Like, I could really trust this man. What was that like?

Kyle Ashworth [02:45:39] Yes, yes, and yes. So, yes, like having those. I didn't experience, like, the make out sessions. In fact, I can't remember if we ever made out. Like, I'm trying to think if we ever made out. And Jamie will have to correct me. Maybe she remembers some magical moment and maybe I buried. Wasn't a complete disdain to have that connection, but I didn't. I had zero desire to make out. I had zero desire for sex. I was completely chaste, was completely virtuous. And a large part of me had gotten to the point, like we talked about earlier in the interview, so much of that virtue, so much of that chastity lesson was just over, just playing like a reel to reel in my brain over and over and over again. The reality, though, is I started coming to a point where I tried to one, I needed to know if those were virtues that I had built up in myself as a religious person or if that was my sexuality yelling at me. And because I'd only had experience with my religion, I always said this was my religion, this is my religion speaking. Like, this is me being virtuous, chaste, benevolent, all those things, those were the signals that were playing in my brain. And I know she wanted, she. She desired more of a connection because as she would draw closer, I would push her away as she would. We would snuggle on the couch and she'd roll over and I knew she'd wanted to. Wanted to kiss, but I couldn't. Like, there wasn't anything to that. I found, I don't want to say kissable because that sounds harsh. Like there that the emotions, the experience, the desire to, to be in that stage of intimate intimacy was not there. I was okay holding hands. I was okay snuggling. I mean, just the, even, even just putting. Resting my hand on her back or touching her butt was really awkward to me because it just wasn't that connection that I felt. And it felt inauthentic and it felt forced when I forced myself to do it. So I stopped in those few moments that I did experience or we tried to make out or something. So I don't want to make this sound like it was also doom and gloom, but it all sounds so. Marky Peterson Mormonism. It sounds so General Conference 1965. Like, this is how your relationship should look like you have sex only for the, the creation of children and that's it. And make sure your garments are on and you don't look at each other sideways ever again. Like that's kind of the, the relationship that I thought I had. And I was completely okay with that because it felt comfortable.

John Dehlin [02:48:29] Yeah. And you're kind of talking about there's a little bit of a tone of self, not self defense, but self justification. Like why. I don't think I was deceiving her. I was living the gospel. Well, there's her. She's not here to interview, but there's her perspective, which I imagine might have been, why isn't this guy all over me? Why aren't I pushing him off? Is he really attracted to me? Are other. I imagine she may have dated other boys who were very different, maybe to her, I don't know, they were gay. Are you, are you joking?

Kyle Ashworth [02:49:03] No, we'll get to that point.

John Dehlin [02:49:05] Okay. Yeah, because I'm just saying, like, what was going through her mind and did she have signs that she ignored? Maybe or not?

Kyle Ashworth [02:49:15] Yeah, well, she, obviously, she was madly in love, so. Love hath no bounds when it is blossoming. And so for her, yeah, she's. She's not here to speak for that relationship to her experience. But we've had this discussion and she was head over heels. And I think when we get into the discussion of betrayal trauma and the psychological effects of mixed orientation marriages, that was the beginning of this betrayal trauma. Like, she was all in and I was 50% in or less. And sometimes more like in the fluidity of our relationship, there were times that we were enamored with each other and there were other times that I couldn't feel further apart because of this dissonance and this disassociation with who and what I was in relation to our relationship. So, yes, there was a connection there on her part that was far greater. And so she also felt like she was the instigator of all the romantic experiences. And that also weighs heavily on a relationship when even in a heterosexual relationship, in a straight marriage, where one partner is the instigator in all intimacy, that is a difficult experience for that single partner. And obviously, there's some psychological, mental, or even physical barriers that are preventing those relationships from happening. And those are all things that we should work through. Where are the tools, where are the instruments to help heterosexual and homosexual couples navigate those experiences? They're excommunicatable. That's where they're at. When a member jumps into this space or anyone in Mormonism tries to bring this topic up and try to create healthy sexual relationships and even healthy sexual boundaries, they're ostracized from the religion. And that's been true today as well as it was decades ago. Any discussion of this space around sex becomes taboo, and you don't want. You just avoid this topic altogether. So for her, she was frustrated and not being able to have an opportunity to vent that out, I'm sure. And in fact, I know that just because in our discussions later in our marriage, that's what happened. But for me, like, where do you turn to navigate these complexities in a relationship? I didn't know anybody that wanted to know that I was gay. I also didn't know anybody that specialized in gay men creating better intimate relationships with their straight wives. We're talking about so many minorities within a minority within a minority here that you're out in the lone and dreary world all on your own, out there hanging out with Satan and Bruce Hill, trying to make the best of this. This wilderness.

John Dehlin [02:51:46] We're also talking about 2000. What, what year?

Kyle Ashworth [02:51:48] 3.

John Dehlin [02:51:49] 2000. 3.

Kyle Ashworth [02:51:50] 3, 4, 5, 6.

John Dehlin [02:51:51] Which is kind of before kind of the LGBTQ Mormon explosion that happens a few years later.

Kyle Ashworth [02:51:58] 100.

John Dehlin [02:51:59] So we're still in Evergreen. This is still Evergreen territory, right?

Marriage, Early Family Life, and What Was Missing

Kyle Ashworth [02:52:02] Yeah, Evergreen territory. So we. We end up getting married in 2006. And I mean, I remember we were married in the Vernal Utah temple. My mission president, his wife, her family, my family were all there in the temple. Vernal isn't a gigantic temple, but it's. I mean, we were cram packed into this room, and before God, angels, and all these witnesses, we made a covenant and decided that we were going to be together forever until we find somebody new.

John Dehlin [02:52:32] What do you mean?

Kyle Ashworth [02:52:33] Well, that, that would eventually happen.

John Dehlin [02:52:35] Well, but the commitment.

Kyle Ashworth [02:52:36] But the commitment, yeah, that, no, that was just a little. That was a snide joke. The.

John Dehlin [02:52:41] I have to say this, like, the church teaches that premarital sex is bad. And I, I get it. And I'm not, you know, as someone who has lived a relatively very chaste immoral life compared to, I'm sure whatever the, the norm is, right? And I'm not an advocate of like lewdness and licentiousness and irresponse, sexual irresponsibility by any stretch. And I see all the risks and harms of premarital sex. I see all that and I see one real significant harm over and over and over again to the live chastity, which is that if you are able to experiment sexually with your partner before you make an eternal commitment to them, right, you can save each of you and your potential children a whole lot of stress and pain if you realize before you make that commitment, wow, this, this kind isn't working. But you don't have the chance to ever test drive the car. The car meaning the intimate, the physical intimacy of the relationship. And so you're buying without ever having test driven the car. So you're buying in ignorance. And it's, and it's such a serious thing when it comes to your lives. The, the, the consequences of divorce, the pressure to stay married and then of course getting the kids involved and then potentially having it all blow up, not to mention the individual well being of the two people involved. All that is, is riding on the backs of jumping blindly into something when you really have no business making that decision with, with, with full informed consent, with all of the information available before making the decision. Does that make sense?

Kyle Ashworth [02:54:40] You're not wrong. And I really hope that someone who is listening to this episode who is a parent or a church leader makes that connection, understands exactly what you just said. Because being years down the road on this side of the aisle, being an openly and out gay man, I have run into story after story after story after story of people who said, I didn't even know I was gay until after we got married. I had no clue I was even remotely gay until the wedding night.

John Dehlin [02:55:14] And it's not just men. A woman, A woman can be lesbian, but never really think of herself that way because she's never allowed to. She's not even a lot. She doesn't have the mental schema or possibility of her being lesbian. So she may just conceptualize herself as being super chaste, super righteous, super moral and like, and in reality, it's this big boulder that's about to come crashing down on the eventual marriage. But she has no idea.

Kyle Ashworth [02:55:48] Yeah. And I'm 100% in your camp. I try to be like the most chaste, virtuous, middle of the road. Yeah. Type of person. It's not only just in my fabric, but that is who I am. And I understand the downfalls of a society that is a just a hellacious, whorish, experience driven society. There's not a lot of good in that space. I will say at times there's some benefit to that. But in all intents and purposes, I value a monogamous, chaste relationship. That's who I am.

John Dehlin [02:56:26] Me too.

Kyle Ashworth [02:56:27] Not that the whole world has to follow that regimen, but for me, that's what associates best.

John Dehlin [02:56:33] And,

Kyle Ashworth [02:56:35] and knowing what you're, what you're getting yourself into is so important. And I don't know how you. I don't know how we get to the point where we're able to navigate this in a, in a better situation. And I don't know where, as religion or as, as a society that we have to give in, but we have to, we have to make some concessions somewhere. We have to come up with a point, come to a, to the point where we look at the strength and validity of a relationship and the long term sustainability of a relationship over a principle that's likely outdated and archaic and tradition. Archaic tradition. We have to get to a point where, just like you said, we're damaging husbands and wives and children and familial relationships over a principle that can make or break and cause more harm and more damage by instituting it. So I'm 100% on board with that. For me, my honeymoon night experience wasn't terrible. Happy to report all things functioned well. Like, that was. That was a big worry in my world, especially going into my marriage as a, as a complete virgin, like, complete fidelity in, into that relationship. That was, that was heartening. It was almost as if like the heavens opened a little bit and hey, this is working. This is working two thirds of the way in. Here I go. Like, it's starting to work. Things are finally happening. So I was excited for that. And, and to be clear, you had

John Dehlin [02:58:14] already said this is the first person you ever kissed in your life and this is the first sexual experience you had ever had up until that point. Was your wedding night, correct? Right?

Kyle Ashworth [02:58:23] Yeah, yep. 100% so. Poor girl. She was the first for a lot of things, but also just kind of like the hooray part of it, like, yes, it's working. Things are functioning as they were intended on functioning. And it seemed like life was going to be okay. Ironically, this same experience happens post coming out, especially mixed orientation marriages where there's this honeymoon stage. And so we, we went through a relatively good marriage life, like early marriage life. I was.

John Dehlin [02:58:59] Were you best friends?

Kyle Ashworth [02:59:00] Best friends.

John Dehlin [02:59:00] So you were. We haven't really talked about this. You guys were close, you were connected, you were best friends, you had all that goodness, which frankly a lot of heterosexual new marriages don't have. It's just the guy wanting to have sex and they both find each other suitable because they fill the checklists and so they get married and they may not be the best of friends. And you had, I'm just checking in. You had the emotional intimacy, you considered each other best friends. And bonus, the sexual intimacy seemed to be working right at first.

Kyle Ashworth [02:59:33] Yeah. And I mean it wasn't.

John Dehlin [02:59:35] That makes it more tragic later, by the way.

Kyle Ashworth [02:59:36] Yeah, it wasn't repulsive like I expected it to be repulsive, but yet there was connection there. And it also felt like, like I said, like the heavens had opened up a little bit and there was, there was this light shining through that was an aha moment. Like, oh, finally. The fruits of my labors have finally been realized. This is all part of the undoing process. And so for that I was really excited. And that was the basis of our marriage. It actually, I think, took a fair amount of my bricks out of my John, by the way, backpack. The emotional spiritual baggage that I had been carrying around, lugging around in this backpack finally got a little bit lighter because I saw some aspect of this that was working. So I would say that that situation lasted for a number of years. We didn't get pregnant really quickly. Our first came. We were married in 2006 and our first son came in 2008. And I was still hella gay.

John Dehlin [03:00:42] What do you mean?

Kyle Ashworth [03:00:42] I was still very gay. Like I still, even though the relationship was working fine, I was still gay. Like there was still this attraction that existed in my brain. There was still a desire to have a connection with guys. And I think people who are married might find this familiar. When you get married, you lose all your friends. Like your whole social circle changes because you go from single, celibate and ready to party to, we both work full time jobs, we have to pay for a home. We're now the greatest joys in our life are like Sunday dinner with mom and dad or being able to travel to somebody's baptism or just to get out of town was fun because just to go to a baptism or a blessing, that was our vacation. Even Jamie and I had it a little bit different. We were both in a position to be able to travel a lot. So we did spend our first year or so gallivanting all over the place, which was really great because that also helped build that connection. Yeah. Just in terms of that physical connection or that emotional connection that existed for quite a while in the marriage. The sexual connection was all over the place and it was Katy Perry. It was hot, cold. Yes. No. In, out, up, down. Wrong. Right. Black, white. It was all over the place. And that was due to my inability to navigate this in a healthy way. The same experiences that we had laying on a couch, she wanting to cuddle and snuggle and make out translated or transferred into our marriage as well. I still had a lack of a desire to jump into that type of a relationship or those types of physical aspects of affection just because I just didn't feel like it was in my DNA. To, to understand how that processed was like it felt. Felt wrong and wrong is tough to say. Just a lack of connection. It just, it felt like Tinker toys were supposed to be connected to a Lego. Both were designed for enjoyment, but they weren't compatible with each other. And it was really difficult for me to make our relationship, our intimate relationship compatible and. But yet all, all of the experiences were still fun and, and still enjoyable and still meant for our relationship.

John Dehlin [03:03:11] Let me see, let me see if I can. If I'm understanding it and if I can restate it. So you're able to mechanically, you know, be sexual and your best friends and there's emotional connection there, but there's instead of it being like, oh, we complete each other and oh, we're now unified and we're one and let's build this life together. There's this constant nagging feeling that it's. That it's not right, that something's wrong, that something off.

Kyle Ashworth [03:03:47] Yeah. I mean, imagine, imagine being born without legs and being told every day you need to. Need to run to school. Like run to school, run to school, run to school. And you're just not capable of running.

John Dehlin [03:03:59] I mean, you can, you can, you could drag and crawl and.

Kyle Ashworth [03:04:03] But you can't run with your legs.

John Dehlin [03:04:06] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [03:04:06] That you don't have to school and, and not to. Just as an example, enableism or disabilism, but I think that's a relatable concept.

John Dehlin [03:04:16] It's psychological, it's emotional.

Kyle Ashworth [03:04:18] Yeah. It's the emotional side of it. It's. I don't have the capabilities of the tool. I don't know how to explain what it's like to be straight, because I'm not straight. You're asking me to do straight things, and I don't know how to do them because I don't have the mechanics, the ability to do what you're asking me to do. That connection is not there. I don't have those legs to make me stand up tall and run. I can create other things. And that's often what we do in the space is we use other things to help us bridge those gaps now, and that's a whole different conversation. But we find other methodologies. And whether it's again, back to throwing things in a box and burying them, highlighting other aspects of the relationship to help mitigate and compensate for the losses that we can't provide.

John Dehlin [03:05:10] But I just want to get really clear on what was missing. So you're able to actually mechanically have sex. You have a kid, your best friends in York. So tying it to the being told to run when you can't, what is it exactly you weren't able to do or feel that made you feel like something was off. I just want to make sure I

Kyle Ashworth [03:05:33] understand that I. I didn't feel authentic. In my experience, that's everything, right?

John Dehlin [03:05:39] Yeah, it was inauthentic.

Kyle Ashworth [03:05:42] It was super inauthentic. And it was trying to make a

John Dehlin [03:05:45] life, a full life with a woman for you.

Kyle Ashworth [03:05:48] I was at. I was at the Chuckarama, and I was being forced to eat beef. And I don't like beef, I really do. But I was only eating the beef because it was sustaining me and it was keeping me alive. It's not that I loved it and wanted it. I. I mean, I could have preferred a cordon bleu or a steak, a pork chop, but the only thing available at the time was beef. And so the inauthentic part of it was I was at that buffet eating something I didn't love because. And love is a different term that I wasn't connecting with because that's what was available. And that was what was keeping me alive. That was the sustainment. And it felt wrong in every aspect of that. It felt like I am not a beef eater, like I'm not straight, but eventually I'll acquire a taste for it. The miracle of forgiveness tells me that, like, this would become an acquired taste, that I will be able to make this work. And I had all that faith that it would and so you just continue to trudge through it, sacrificing her ability to have that connection for your desire to acquire a taste and to be able to form that connection. And I thought, as with most Mormonistic thinking, the more you invest into these experiences, the deeper you fall into the rabbit hole and therefore you end up not exploring this side of you. And maybe we fast forward really fast just to help explain this principle. There are a lot of gay Latter Day Saints who go serve missions for the explicit reason. A lot of their motivation to serve missions is to overcome their sexuality or to bury it, or to get engaged in the work so that they don't have to focus on their sexuality. I know it because I hear it. They reach out to me on a regular basis. Covid was a really difficult time for these missionaries because in a normal time they were out knocking doors and staying busy all day long and not worrying about or focusing on their sexuality. When they were stuck at home in their apartments with nothing to do except dwell on their experience, they melted, they folded like lawn chairs. And they only could focus on these parts of their existence that they wanted to change. And so the reverse of that was happening to me in my own personal life. I was trying to find ways of staying busy enough that I didn't have to focus on these parts of me. And the next step, if mission didn't work and marriage was 2/3 of the way, then we needed to have children. And not, not that we wanted, like I was forcing our existence into, to having children, but I knew that that was the next step in the plan. And children was the way of making this work. And. And so two years after we were married, yeah, I think it was two years after we were married, we were pregnant and had our first boy, a son, which also felt like, so Abrahamic. Like not only was I doing my very best trying to please God, but he in turn pleased me by giving my firstborn as a son. Like, there was just something, I don't know, just personally just felt like so biblical and so spiritual about that. So our first son was born and

John Dehlin [03:09:13] we,

Kyle Ashworth [03:09:16] like, we were great parents. And being a dad was remarkable, really exciting and super spiritual, but also a little deflating because I was still hella gay. There was still this part of me that hadn't changed. And there was, even though that I had taken on so much more responsibility. I mean, I'm working like crazy, just endless hours between at this point, just my own personal business and real estate, doing development, that I was so wildly busy. I also started Selling real estate as a real estate agent. So I basically had three gigs going on still at the same time. Some of them were cohesive, but now I had a wife at home and a baby and new responsibility, took on debt to buy a house and I mean, just all the things that you use to create busy work in your brain. But it wasn't still enough to hide that part of me that still existed. That part of me that again, I still blame myself for allowing to bloom. And I just couldn't find the weed killer to kill it and get rid of it. But yet it just felt like it kept growing and I didn't want it to burst out to the point where people could see it. A tough part of that situation was at the auto detailing business that I owned. One of my employees was gay and he was a good friend of mine and he didn't know that I knew he was gay. And here I was able to see somebody who was going through some of the similar things that I was going through closeted. Like I just. I would go into the office and find porn on my computer. There's only one other person in the office that would have been using it. Like it wasn't. It didn't take much to deduce what was going on. And this continued. He wasn't dating anybody. He dated my ex wife. Like he had dated Jamie before. Like, there were just a lot of signs that started leading up to like these aha moments, like these breakthrough moments that I didn't want them to. I didn't want them around me. I didn't. I didn't want to have to know that there's somebody else close to me that's gay. I didn't want to have to know that the church at this point is, is entering into the, the religious political right on this topic. I didn't want to have to face that. I didn't want to have to be the one who stands up in, in some community or ecumenical church event advocating against something that I am.

John Dehlin [03:11:48] So what year is this?

Kyle Ashworth [03:11:50] This is now getting to like eight, nine.

John Dehlin [03:11:51] Okay, so Proposition Eights.

Kyle Ashworth [03:11:53] Yeah, yeah, Proposition eight. Full like full complete California. And we're also given like the. At this point, right before that, I was serving as an executive secretary. So there were plenty of these papers that were coming down from the 70s and first presidency about how the church is going to react to the California propositions, asking members to pitch in their money. There were calls for us to participate, to strengthen the family, uphold the proclamation. I mean, all those things were happening Swirling all around me. And if you get good enough at it, you could just continue to bury it and you continue to keep it as low as possible and not offer any type of lip service to it again. So if you don't mention it, don't talk about it, you won't be coming. And that really was where I was at. I started seeing all these influences around me who were gay or bisexual at, at minimum, and I didn't know how to process it. I. Something inside of me kind of broke. Something inside of me looked at those experiences as you're not going to get fixed and what have you done? Like the, the crushing of my experience was I. I start in my brain and this is 2008. This is our first kid. 2008, 2009, start contemplating my decisions. This collateral damage that we talked about earlier in the episode. I start looking in the rearview mirror for the first time in a really long time saying to myself, what have I done? I convinced myself that I was something that I wasn't. And now I've brought her family, her, her family into this, my family into this. And now we have a kid and now I've created this facade and it's killing me. It's tough. And if ever I had a come to Jesus meeting regarding this topic for the first time in my life, it was then 2008, 2009, and I mean, there was a lot going on at that time too. Economically, the market was in just a free fall. There were like the financial markets of 2007, 8 and 9 were just plummeting. And it was the worst time to be in real estate, if ever. I mean, obviously in the history of my life, there were more foreclosures and properties available and we were stuck with a large scale subdivision. And it was, I mean, we had hundreds of homes that we were trying to develop and it was a mess. Like it was. The market was really, really tough. And I also was. I was working in a real estate brokerage, so I had clients with their own homes and I was trying to market their properties and get them sold. So an immense amount of stress was on my shoulders because I had staff as well. I had people working for me. And all that I did was just looked around at all these people and they were all collateral damage to me. And it all centered around a single topic. Like if they knew, if they knew I was gay, they would bail on me. Like, who would want to be around me, who would want to work for me? And then the similar feeling. I would look at it and say if they knew I were gay, then so not only would they want to disassociate with me, if they knew I was gay, then they could also blame me for getting them into this and making them, like, part of this conspiracy, like, you drug us into this without us knowing it. And all those things swirled around me and the pressure was immense. Like, I don't even know how I made it through. Not that I ever, like, considered suicide or become suicidal, but I just look back thinking, like, I had so much going on that I don't have. I don't even have words to describe how difficult it was. And at the same time, I'm trying to be a really good Mormon. We're now. We've moved into our own family ward now, and because of my background in scouting, and I still have a dad that loves to row a canoe and bake beans in a Dutch oven, they hauled me into the Young Men's program as quick as possible. And so here I was, leaving these high pressure callings and bishoprics into the Young Men's presidency. And it was the second worst thing I could have done because now I'm internalizing my own homophobia and thinking to myself, I'm a Young Men's president working with the youth. If anyone ever found out about me, what would they say? And just all of these things that were bottled up and exploding at the same time, and I couldn't control the explosions anymore. And that was the tough part about the human experience. It seems like some of the times that we're the most happy is when we're in control of our current situation and have the ability to direct the future. And as we're able to do that, we seem like we have this lease on life that allows us to move forward in that ability of being in control. And when you take control away from people, we really become loose cannons and we make irrational decisions. We start doing things that are outside of our character, and because of that, we become our own worst enemy. And that's the part I was in. I was in so much confusion. At the same point, we then get pregnant with our second daughter. So not only is the world caving, kind of, and all of these physical and emotional and spiritual stresses are on us. But my wife gets pregnant again for the second time. And this is. Our daughter was born in 2010. So just two years after our son was born, we are pregnant with another. She has our second daughter. And it dawned on me one day, I was sitting in church and just kind of rehashing My whole experience and trying, as a lot of us are familiar, this is familiar territory. You sit in church and partake of the sacrament and try to make that communion, that connection with God in those intimate moments. And it dawned on me, sitting in just a few rows back from the sacrament table, watching my youth, just making sure that they do all their jobs correctly, that I missed the whole idea of this plan. It was miss. It was mission, marriage, children. It wasn't just one child. Oh, it was children, multiple.

John Dehlin [03:18:45] It's just this endless hamster wheel where you're not living your actual life. You're living a life someone else handed to you. You don't have your own identity, you have a pseudo identity handed to you by the high demand religion. And every milestone where you should be stepping off the, the treadmill, stepping off the hamster wheel and figuring out how to live an authentic life. It's just like one more thing. One more thing. And then it's not just what you're experiencing, you're bringing everyone along with you on this. I don't want to say fraud, because that's really the first language, but yeah,

Kyle Ashworth [03:19:19] that's a collateral damage. Yeah, yeah, that is the collateral damage.

John Dehlin [03:19:22] And just one more thing. Now it's children instead of child.

Kyle Ashworth [03:19:25] Children. Yeah. And so she's pregnant with my. With our second child. And so for me, this was like a godsend. This was at the sacrament table of Christ. I have just been resurrected. Like, I literally had my resurrection moment. Here I was like I had taken upon myself the name of Christ. I have done all the things that I thought was necessary for me to be a good Mormon. And here in my liberty jail moment. Oh, God, where art thou? He says, look, I gave you the plan. It was mission, marriage, children. And you only have one child. Wait for the second one to come around. And the second one came around and my process didn't change. And again, it was defeat. In those few months, there was a good opportunity to grow. And it was like before my second daughter was born. It was this renaissance moment again for me. The same renaissance moment that I'd had over and over and over again. Like a broken wheel, this revolving door, the merry go round, the hamster wheel. I mean, all those things that just continue to happen over and over and over again. What is the definition of insanity? Doing the same thing without and expecting the same result. That is what I kept going. This is insane territory. Mormons, we are causing insanity among our youth and our adults who find themselves in this space. It isn't changing. And I just didn't know that. And again, what you don't know, you don't know. And after mission, marriage and children happened and I'm still very gay and still very confused, I need to start reaching out to other resources. I have to get to the point where I tell myself, someone needs to know about you and it's eating you alive. And 2011 ish right after, it was after my daughter was born. She was born in April of 10, so it was end of 10, first of 11. I find this beautiful stepping stone. It was called Northstar and Northstar was this LGBTQ faith affirming resource that was an opportunity for me to still remain an active, faithful Latter Day Saint, but embrace my sexuality. And prior to Northstar, I had reached out on the Internet to try to find other men who were like me. I, I, I would have sold my riches to find the book that told me how returned missionary father, Young Men's President, Young Men, Young Men President, could navigate this world in a healthy way. Clearly I knew that I wasn't alone in the world. So how were other people making it work? I wasn't the only gay Latter Day Saint in a marriage. I didn't even, I'm not even sure I even knew what mixed orientation marriages were at the point, at that point. But I needed connection. I needed to find my tribe, my herd.

Discovering Conversion Therapy and North Star

John Dehlin [03:22:33] And had you heard of Affirmation? Or do you remember having heard of Affirmation? And do you remember having heard of Evergreen? Or is Evergreen defunct by this point?

Kyle Ashworth [03:22:42] No. So the other part of the story that we haven't really discussed, which is a completely different podcast, is the search for truth and the diving into the religious side of this topic. And so I consumed everything. Even when I was still in the seminary, president junior in high school, I was consuming everything I could regarding this topic. And so I was well aware of Evergreen because a lot of the general authorities sat on the Evergreen board or gave their keynote speeches were general authorities that spoke at Evergreen. And for those who are unfamiliar with Evergreen, that was also a faith based group of therapists, church leaders who were really working their very best to create space for gay Latter Day Saints, transgender, not so much transgender, Latter Day Saints, but that intersection existed, but mainly for gay, lesbian, not so much bisexual Latter Day Saints to navigate this world in a healthy religious way. Evergreen also was a promoter of conversion therapy programs. There were a number of programs centered around Evergreen, one of which like the Journey into Manhood program, Journey beyond program, the Jonah program, which were now are for all intents and purposes defunct conversion therapy programs that have been outlawed in 20 states, but they're wholly ineffective at changing someone's sexuality. But this is something that Evergreen latched onto, and they were really in the camp that this is changeable. And to Evergreen's credit, this is also something that the church was teaching all the way through the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, to the point where even into the 80s and 90s, the church was offering reparative aversion therapies that we discussed earlier at byu. Not with success, but they were trying them, and they were doing everything possible from talk therapy to medication in order to convert people of their sexuality. So I was very familiar with Evergreen, but Northstar just seemed to have the hallmark version. It was the soft focus of. I call it a soft landing because I think it was super important for me to come out of the church and fall into this topic in a manner that wasn't jolting. It wasn't until I was inside Northstar that I ever heard of Affirmation. And Affirmation is another support group of LGBTQ individuals. But I was always told that Affirmation was Satan's stepsister. That was really how Affirmation was sold to me. All within that North Star community, they had nothing good to say about Affirmation because it's where all the failures went. People who couldn't handle the gospel of Jesus Christ, they found themselves into Affirmation. And I was none of those things. I didn't want to be a failure. I just wanted to do everything the right way. I wanted to get to the point where I could manage being a husband and a father and a young men's president or a bishop or an apostle or the prophet one day. Like, I just wanted to move on with my life in a healthy manner, and Northstar seemed to do that for me. Like, Northstar started giving me some hope that it was possible, because here were so many stories of men who were making this work, and they had the Voices of Hope project. There were these beautiful web videos. Yeah. Time Mensfeld wrote the biography, the story about Stuart Mathis, about the. Oh, geez, now I can't remember the name of the. In quiet desperation. Just bald. Like, what a book. Like, here were examples of people who were doing everything possible to make it to Zion, and some of them were making it work. And I clung to those stories, and I really, really, really wanted to be part of that community, and I wanted to. To glean exactly what they had to offer.

John Dehlin [03:26:50] And I'll just. You know, this is kind Of I'm having my own parallel experience historically as you're going through this. Because I start my PhD in 2009, I'm doing scrupulosity as my focus. But by 2010, I. I'm done with my scrupulosity stuff and I'm looking for a dissertation. This is when Bill Bradshaw reaches out to me and says, hey, no one's ever studied the impact of reparative therapy and conversion therapy and its effectiveness and whether it really works. We had known about Dean Byrd, we'd known about Evergreen. We had started to hear about Northstar maybe around this time. And I knew that the writing was on the wall for Evergreen and for conversion therapy. And I thought of Ty Mansfield and Voices of Hope and of North Star as like the church trying to rebrand and create a new experience for the gay Mormon man that could shed the dead loser that was Dean Byrd's conversion therapy and Evergreen. But they could use the Atonement as the way instead of conversion therapy through shock therapy, somehow with Voices of Hope, cling to the savior and that will somehow bridge the gay gap for, for Mormon men. And so I remember those early heady years of North Star being that source of hope and of the future, the gay future, North Star, the gay Mormon future. You know what I mean?

Kyle Ashworth [03:28:19] Yeah. I, I listened to Ty talk about this just a few weeks ago about the, the creation of North Star and how that happened. And, and so Northstar, they really did start independent of Evergreen. But then as Evergreen, like you said, I mean it crumbled. It crumbled so quickly as the church started pulling its support out of it. And I don't know if Evergreen tumbled quickly because of the dissatisfaction. My gut says that's what happened. We had a 2000 just. The church got pommeled in California 2000 over the Prop 8 issue. We moved to Hawaii in the Prop 13. Utah had its own amendment, Amendment 3 that was going on at the same time. The church was just on the losing end of this topic over and over and over again. So as people were, the church was investing some of their prime resources into Evergreen, not yielding the results that they thought that they were going to get. I think the church immediately looked at that and just said it's toxic. We got to get out of it. And so as the church pulled its support out of Evergreen and likely it's financial through multiple underground channels, nonprofits, that's

John Dehlin [03:29:30] always back channel donations, that's always how the church runs these things.

Kyle Ashworth [03:29:34] When that dried up, Evergreen blew away and there was not There was just dust left over. So Northstar inherited that. That list. And it was always. It's always. And I just heard this the other day, like, so many people believe that North Star just. Evergreen just morphed into North Star. That's not true. Well, really, Evergreen blew away. Northstar inherited the lists.

John Dehlin [03:29:57] Yeah. The mailing list, the membership list, for sure.

Kyle Ashworth [03:30:01] And then they just.

John Dehlin [03:30:01] I remember when that happened. I remember seeing that.

Kyle Ashworth [03:30:04] That's the history, communication.

John Dehlin [03:30:05] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [03:30:06] So they just inherited this whole group of Latter Day Saints who were on the fringes, and they were able to grow a group really quickly. And I was part of that. And at this point, we're like 2013ish.

John Dehlin [03:30:19] Honestly, I just had to say this. You talked about fresh starts in your life. Yeah, it's like with the. The Mormon. The gay. The. The LDS Church gay Mormon journey is just fresh start after fresh start after fresh start after fresh start. And North Star is the equivalent of the Mormon Church's fresh start with try to figure out the gay thing. Oh, yeah. Does that make sense?

Kyle Ashworth [03:30:43] Oh, yeah. If ever we want to talk about trial and error, let's just take a look at this topic 100%. And I do remember, I think, was your TED talk like, 13?

John Dehlin [03:30:52] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [03:30:53] Because I remember. I remember watching it.

John Dehlin [03:30:55] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [03:30:55] Yeah. Conversely, I also remember sitting in my bathtub with my headphones on, listening to the game Mormon Stories podcast, consuming the episodes. The. The Tom and Wendy Montgomery stories. These episodes that just busted me. I mean, I was bawling. My wife was in reading a book or taking care of the kids. And by this time, we have four. We have a son, a daughter, and twin girls. And I'm in the bathtub, still gay, trying to pull myself out of this world. She's in there doing everything possible. And we'll get to the point where, like we discussed this earlier, where she felt like, what am I doing so wrong in this relationship to not feel the connection that I should be feeling? She's still feeling that. What? We're seven years, six years into our marriage now. She's walking on eggshells thinking she's not a good enough mother, not a good enough wife. What is she doing wrong? Why do we not have a connection in our relationship? So that's her turmoil. That's what she's running around and still having four kids. I've isolated myself to a bathtub listening to apostate John Dehlin. Not yet full apostate John Dehlin giving your TED Talk about sexuality, making so many connections like that meant so much and then also consuming every gay Mormon stories episode that would come out because it was my connection again. And at the same time I have this secular connection to my identity and I have Northstar on the other side telling me that all those things are wrong.

John Dehlin [03:32:31] Talk about the promise when you first heard of North Star. I want to get to the bathtub and to the four kids and your wife in the TED Talk and it's just all the ways that played out in your life. But let's not skip over when you discover Northstar, when you first discover it, what's the promise of it? And then what services and community and teachings did they offer and how much hope did that give you? And then how did that play out? Just your North Star experience.

Kyle Ashworth [03:33:01] I'm going to break a lot of hearts answering this question, especially within the North Star community. North Star promises everything in terms of the messaging. Let me just, because I know people are going to listen to this segment specifically so I want to make sure I share with you like the multifaceted problems with North Star on its cover. North Star is a faith based support group that's there to uphold the mission of Jesus Christ and the doctrines and policies of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. That's their mission statement. So in the soft focus website and all of the creatively crafted films, that's what you're going to get. You're going to get a not conversion therapy, conversion therapy program.

John Dehlin [03:33:59] Healing through Christ, healing the gay through Christ.

Kyle Ashworth [03:34:01] You will overcome behaviors that are contributing to your same sex attraction. We want to give you the tools in the community to help you overcome those behaviors. We're not changing your sexuality on the COVID of the North Star website. We're not here to change your sexuality or convert you. That's what you're going to see generally today. It wasn't so plain when I joined in 20101112 ish. Somewhere in there, I don't know exactly what year I joined and I joined anonymously. Just as a side note, you could join with a fake profile with a just a non specific name and that's what I did. I just joined with a, with an alias and joined into their groups and jumped into their online groups and I found that community. Now that's the soft focus. That is the package prepared version of Northstar that they want you to see. Let's talk about what really happens inside of Northstar. And this is the side that the wives of gay men aren't able to see and experience. And that is the extreme Dissonance that exists. For a couple years. I was involved in these groups and saw men who came in with just the same desires that I did to make things work and to overcome the their sexuality. Because those are all promises that we were made. And the church's literature still promises that we'll change. Oaks big proclamation to the world regarding this topic that still on the church's website, in an interview with public Relations, still says, you don't have to worry about this. In the next life, this will all go away. If not in this life, it will go away in the next life. That's still the hallmark message. So within these groups are all these men who are trying to make this all go away, and a group that's catering to this clientele. North Star caters to men who believe that their sexuality will change and women who believe that their husbands will be converted to straight and lesbians who think that they will one day find men holy, satisfactory, and even transgender individuals who believe that their identity will revert back to their bodies in which they were born. That's what people in those groups are hoping for. Now, there are some fringes on both sides. There are some ultra conservative and some very liberal in those groups. But the general middle of the road people at Northstar wholly believe that their sexuality or identity will change and that there's something that they can fix. Here's what really happens. There are men, and I'll speak just for the men. And the women can speak in their own, their own lane and experience. But in my lane with the men groups. I was in Northstar for less than a year when leaders, the leadership of Northstar, reached out to me and offered me an opportunity to go to their conference that was being held. I was excited. I wouldn't go because that meant I had to come out publicly. Someone would have to see me in real life. But they said, if you don't want to come to the conferences and if you don't want to show yourself at conference, let us invite you to something else. And they were these cuddling parties that they had created. And one of them was being held at the Hampton Inn in Provo Orem. And they told me that they had rented multiple rooms and there were different levels. It's like the telestral, terrestrial and celestial kingdom of gay whoredom in Mormonism.

Inside North Star: Promise and Reality

John Dehlin [03:37:46] Gay what?

Kyle Ashworth [03:37:47] Being a gay whore. That's kind of what I kind of think of it as. But here were these men who were the leaders of some leaders in North Star who were affluent in these online groups, who Served in their boards. They were offering these opportunities to lay with men with your clothes on, in between a sheet, or fully naked. It's up to you. We don't talk to our wives about these experiences. We go to the conferences. We call them. Healthy Touch, we call them. There was a variety of names they had for them. Essentially, these were all opportunities for men to connect with men in a non. What they would label a non sexual experience. I don't think there's much that can't be called non sexual when you're in the same bed with a man, sheet or no sheet separating you. Like, those experiences are sexual experiences to me. They also were, like, wildly. I didn't feel comfortable with them. I thought they were. I thought that was a gigantic form of cheating.

John Dehlin [03:38:53] Emotional infidelity.

Kyle Ashworth [03:38:54] Infidelity. That's the word I was looking for. Infidelity. Complete infidelity. Here I was, married to my wife, struggling to make this whole situation work, holding my faith together, like by strings,

John Dehlin [03:39:06] chewing gum and bellywear.

Kyle Ashworth [03:39:08] 100%. And the leaders of this group that's offering me the very best tools that I've ever found in my whole life are inviting me in without my wife's permission. Don't tell her. Don't disclose.

John Dehlin [03:39:20] They're telling you not to tell her.

Kyle Ashworth [03:39:21] They said the very best remedy, the very best experiences that we found are experiences where men don't tell their wives.

John Dehlin [03:39:27] Oh, my gosh.

Kyle Ashworth [03:39:28] This.

John Dehlin [03:39:28] And Ty Mansfield's okay with this?

Kyle Ashworth [03:39:30] Well, I. We can ask. I've never discussed this with Ty. Does Ty know about it? I'd love for Ty to answer that

John Dehlin [03:39:36] question, but it's a North Star.

Kyle Ashworth [03:39:38] It's centered all around those men in North Star.

John Dehlin [03:39:40] And they're using the leader of North Star.

Kyle Ashworth [03:39:42] Yeah, he. And I think. Yeah. Ty still owns. Yes, he still. Like I started, he owns. Is the.

John Dehlin [03:39:48] So I'm just saying, all throughout this, Ty, it sounds like he maintains the appearance of an arm's length. He's not directly endorsing, but that all of his deputies are leading this under the name of the organization that he owns and controls.

Kyle Ashworth [03:40:07] Yeah. So, I mean, this is the part where I have to be completely clear. I never, never, ever was invited to these events because this was a North Star event. I was invited to these events under the. In the groups, the North Star groups that I was a part of, with people who were part of North Star, with people who are actual members of the board of directors of North Star, who were moderators, who were leaders in these groups. Did. Does Ty send those Invitations out for Healthy Bonding and Mel Touch? I don't think so. I've never seen those. Does Northstar send those out with their logo on them? No, I don't believe they do. Do the moderators and members of those groups that are all birds of a feather flock together in the same group, promote Journey into Manhood programs, Journey beyond programs? Healthy. Yes, 100%. Absolutely. I will die on my sword because that happened to me. Those men in those groups invited me to those experiences because I was part of North Star, not because I was part of Affirmation, not because I was distant. The. The place I found that information was in Northstar. Now, can. Can tie or any of the board of directors claim plausible deniability. 100%.

John Dehlin [03:41:23] But it's. It seems to have been structured that way intentionally.

Kyle Ashworth [03:41:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:41:27] Where they're going to encourage this behavior, It's a part of the program, but it's, it's designed so that there can be plausible deniability. It seems like.

Kyle Ashworth [03:41:39] I can't answer whether or not they created that structure, and maybe this is me being the diplomat in this situation, but what I can answer to is the fact that they're not stopping it. If they're aware of it, why aren't they providing and rooting out the people in their organization that's continuing it?

John Dehlin [03:41:56] No, I'll just say if you don't want to be the diplomat. If you want to be the diplomat. And I'm not trying to be undiplomatic. And every gay man I've ever talked to who's a part of North Star was engaged in these cuddle sessions. And it may have been at a Hampton Inn or may have been at the basement of someone's house, but this is part and parcel of the North Star experience, period. Because there's not one Northstar person I've ever talked to that didn't engage in these, these cuddle parties.

Kyle Ashworth [03:42:25] I'm, I'm. I won't disagree with that. I'm on board completely. My, my. Because I just can't speak from experience. I never saw, and I never saw an invitation that had a North Star logo on it. I never saw Ty Mansfield come out and say, as a North Star, we want this. We want you to experience this. But let me tell you, the moderators, the admins, that's by design. The, the directors, they were. There were men in those situations that were promoting those programs.

John Dehlin [03:42:52] The plausible deniability is intentionally by design. It has to be. It has to be.

Kyle Ashworth [03:42:58] Yeah. I just. My own personal experience, I Didn't see it. But I'm not disagreeing with you either. Like, I. I watched it unfold. And you.

John Dehlin [03:43:07] You did try that.

Kyle Ashworth [03:43:08] No, no, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [03:43:09] You didn't do it.

Kyle Ashworth [03:43:09] No. And. And it actually was part of a lot of my exodus out of North Star because how could. I mean, I.

John Dehlin [03:43:16] You were. Did they. How did you know that that was what was going to happen? So that you could say, I don't want to be a part of it,

Kyle Ashworth [03:43:23] because I was 100%. Like, when they were telling me what some of these experiences were like and just gushing, like the growth and the ability to overcome. And some of these guys are still. Yeah, I'm not going to name names because these are people that North Star knows and still are active in Northstar today. And young men who are. And women who are coming into the Northstar program today are being influenced by these people. When I was sold this, I immediately threw flags all over the place. What do you mean? I'm going to secretly leave my wife for a weekend, do a business trip, go to the Hampton Inn on a Friday night or a Sunday morning or late Saturday night and choose which kingdom of glory I want to go visit and then go home to my wife. And what do I tell her? Well, these guys had all of the excuses and they were creating all of these principles that felt like gospel principles in terms of we were extinguishing the flames like we're putting out the fire. Sometimes it just takes one experience, one of these opportunities to cuddle, and then it's out of your system and then you don't have to worry about it. Again, like, all of these promises that were being sold to me, how did I know about them? I was asking find out questions. I was trying to understand. Like, there was a part of me that wanted this experience to work, but the larger part of me said, I'm married to a woman, to a wife, and all I'm trying to do is get rid of this. Not like, allow some new fire to be created inside of me. Some of them were on this. Some of the more liberal members of North Star were those who would say, like, embrace your sexuality. Come out, like, be okay with who you are, but still live within the. These healthy bonds which were these cuddle parties that they were creating, and I just couldn't do it. A part of that was the fact that I didn't want to come out publicly. I didn't want my face to be shown in the real world. But a lot of that had to do with this. Whole idea that 100% of this experience was infidelity. It's just the only way I could translate it. I was being unfaithful to my wife and I couldn't for a moment think that I could go lay in a bed with another man, clothed or unclothed, and go home to her and say, I love you, honey, and let's continue to make this another five years. Couldn't do it. But it's still happening today. And this week is conference week for North Star, or next week is conference week for Northstar and wives. When your husbands take off in the dark of night to go hang out with the fellas, I would ask a lot of find out questions if that's something that's uncomfortable to you and not part of your marital dynamic. I'd be asking a lot of find out questions about these journey into manhood programs and cuddle parties and bear weekends where literally the men are bare in the campgrounds up in the mountains. These are all forms of infidelity that I just couldn't sit with. Absolutely wasn't part of my, my fabric,

John Dehlin [03:46:40] in my understanding is, number one, there's, there's this pseudoscience social science justification. It's based on this idea that because you didn't have the proper parental upbringing, the right male role models, the right appropriate types of male bonding relationships, that you malformed into a gay adult Mormon somehow. And that if you're just able to have these journeys into manhood, these masculine experiences, healthy masculine touch, that somehow that can fix the malformation that that occurred when you were, when you were younger. Is that the philosophy behind it?

Kyle Ashworth [03:47:21] Oh, yeah. That's the philosophy of men mingled with scripture. Raise your hand if you believe it.

John Dehlin [03:47:27] There's literally no science behind any of that.

Kyle Ashworth [03:47:30] Yeah,

John Dehlin [03:47:33] as, as you know, as someone with the PhD in psychology that studied this, it's. It's scientifically bankrupt.

Kyle Ashworth [03:47:40] It doesn't work.

John Dehlin [03:47:41] Yeah. And it doesn't work.

Kyle Ashworth [03:47:45] So. Yeah, I mean, the. On the honest answer to the whole North Star predicament is North Star is a soft landing. I went to their conference a couple years ago, the last conference.

John Dehlin [03:47:57] Wait, is it fair to say that lots of hookups. And this is also what I've heard is that places like North Star. So number one, it's giving people false hope. Number two, sounds like a lot of this is clandestine where the wives, in the case of gay men, don't know. So it's behind the, the backs of the, of the wives. And then, and then it is a form of Infidelity. But then also this becomes the way that gay Mormon men end up forging relationships that oftentimes do turn in to full on infidelity. Again, once you've started engaging in the practice of hiding things from your spouse, you just develop, you know, infidel in unfaithful relationships with, with the people that you meet at North Star. Does that?

Kyle Ashworth [03:48:50] Yeah. And is. And this is the.

John Dehlin [03:48:52] Or journey into manhood. Yeah, Hookups, basically all of them.

Kyle Ashworth [03:48:55] Do they happen? Absolutely. Are they as rampant as other communities? Probably not. I think I knew of plenty of sexual experiences that happened in tens of scout camp.

John Dehlin [03:49:06] Right.

Kyle Ashworth [03:49:06] Or at young men young women camps or activities. So even in a very religious Mormonistic experience, do these types of relationships happen? Yes. And, and do hookups happen at these North Star events? I'm sure they do. Like, I'm. I'm quite confident that they do. I think if you wanted like to throw statistics down, I think a North Star would be a safer place than an affirmation in terms of those experiences, a hookup culture. And I'll get to that. Not that I'm shaming affirmation, because I'll get to the reasoning why when we wanted to discuss affirmation, but I just think that just the general foundation behind a North Star is that most of these people are still actively ingrained in their faith and there's still a religious aspect of their experience. And so the bonds of matrimony, the experiences of chastity, the quest for virtue all still exist, even at most levels within North Star. I do. There was something else I wanted to. Oh, I wanted to discuss the conference a couple of years ago with North Star. And I just want to talk about sustainability because with this ultra religious experience comes the inability to maintain it for a very long time. And this is another way of answering your question. Two years ago, Northstar had its last in person conference. And I was surprised at the numbers that the statistic numbers that they gave. They said 60% of the people in the audience that we were sitting there in were first timers. Or 60% of the people in the audience were church members who were attending that conference. Of the 40% that remained in that conference, 80% of them were new visitors for the first time at northstar. So the 20% that was there, that is your STP, your same 10 people, the same person that becomes the elder scorn president, the young men's president, eventually the bishop, then the stake, the same 10 people in your ward that make the ward function. Northstar has the same 10 person problem. The only core people that Northstar has are the ones that have just been there forever. They just continue to, they don't cycle through, they just continue to fulfill different positions. Their attrition rate is through the roof. So they bring new people in and that those new people are not sustainable. Their model isn't there to sustain people for a very long time. Now Northstar, I've heard them argue at some point like that's to their credit. They bring people into their organization, they find the tools necessary and then they leave. But they're not leaving. They're going to affirmation. They're finding other places that will sustain them and give them a healthier place to go. It is the principle of. It's the animals who are foraging on the tops of the mountains and when the snow falls, they just move down the mountain and they follow the food. When the food runs dry, the water is no longer clear. At Northstar, those people have to leave. And the majority of the people who are leaving Northstar are the same ones who are leaving the church in this topic. It's the ones who are directly impacted by this topic. And it's not just the member who identifies as gay or transgender or lesbian or bisexual or pansexual that just picks up and leaves. You're getting brothers and sisters and mom and dad and cousins and aunts and uncles and other church leaders who are packing their bags and leaving as well, because this is not a sustainable space. And so North Star's greatest problem in its attrition is its messaging. It does not have the tools. As long as it has its horse connected to the wagon of Mormonism, North Star only can go so far. And when the real lived experiences outlive the wagon, people fall off of that wagon and they start walking to other, other locations.

John Dehlin [03:53:02] But, but here's what I'm, what's occurring to me. So you had the mission, marriage and children thing, right? And it's clear that the only real, you know, let's just really, let's net it up to the, to the most basic. We each have a certain amount of years in our life to live, right? And from. And I'm not saying this is conscious from the church's perspective, but I have to think this is kind of how the subconscious math works. Every Mormon human has a certain amount of years that they can be living on the earth, serving the church, paying money, paying tithing to the church, committing their lives to the church, right? And it seems like the goal of the church is to maximize the number of time, the number of years to maximize the amount of time that every member gives to the church. And so they have to get people on that hamster wheel. And so for you, you got locked in as a youth because you're trying to not be gay and you're trying to stay super faithful. Then you. You. Once you awaken to your gayness, then you've got that Boyd K. Pamphlet, Boyd K. Packer pamphlet that says mission, marriage and children, not just child, but children. So that. So you go from faithful youth to mission to marriage, not just a child, but to children. And then you reach the point where you realize, oh, my gosh, this still isn't working, but the church has to keep a carrot there. They've got to keep you on that hamster wheel. Again, not intentionally, not consciously, but this is just subconsciously how it works. North Star becomes that next thing beyond mission, marriage, and children to keep you just a little longer. Its goal isn't to solve the problem. It never was. The brethren aren't thinking, oh, North Star, that's going to fix the problem. It's how do we keep Kyle for at least another year of another few years, keep the marriage going at least another few years, keep those kids being raised in the church at least another few years. It becomes part of the hamster wheel, or whatever you called it.

Kyle Ashworth [03:55:20] Yeah, that whole Mary go round the rocking chair.

John Dehlin [03:55:24] The rocking chair, Right. Am I wrong? I don't mean to infuse a narrative that.

Kyle Ashworth [03:55:29] No, but as you were talking about that, I just. I thought of what could a second motive be in terms of the church employing something like a North Star? And I think a lot of that comes back into a plausible deniability. Again, the church we discussed this earlier has a terrible track record in this space. They were pummeled by the Markey Peterson, Spencer W. Kimball, Ezra Taft, Benson era of how they handled sexuality. Then they brought Oaks into the whole mix. Oaks oversaw the aversion therapy program, the shock therapy at byu, which turned out to be disastrous in terms of a PR issue for the church. So I kind of wonder if another angle wasn't that they loved the idea of an evergreen or a North Star, because then they could always push that away and say, again, these are groups that are outside of the church that are doing these things. And anytime that there was a spoiled apple, they could always say, well, it was in that bushel. That's why. And just like in our own individual experiences, we often will judge or caliber our ability to overcome trials based on our faithfulness and so it's easy for the church to say, well, clearly they missed a few steps. And that's that carrot that you keep talking about. And that's familiar territory for all of us. We were just continued to be. You're just continued to. They continue to offer this carrot in advance of something new or better or greater to come. I mean, isn't that the ninth article of faith, though? We believe that there will be more things revealed, that some of this stuff will go away because greater things are in the horizon. And we as Mormons cling to that kind of stuff because that's what we want. We want hope. That's what faith is about, this idea that. That something greater is down the road. And unfortunately, we sell that at the risk of lives and we sell that at the risk of marriages and families, and we tell somebody. But the celestial kingdom, the resurrection, will fix this. And the only thing you need to do is hold to the rod and make your way through the midst of darkness and bypass the people who scorn and mock you and try to teach you the false doctrines in the world. Because at the end of the road is the tree of life. It's always a promise. And when you get to the end of the road and realize there's no tree of life, what do you have? You have years worth of shamed experiences and a feeling of failure. And so it's often in the midst of darkness and in the scorn of the people from the tall buildings that we find what life really is about. And if ever, well, turning Boyd K. Packer against Boyd K. Packer, his talk about candle of in the darkness. Sometimes we have to venture into the darkness a little bit to find that the way is lighted ahead. Boyd K. Packard's words, not mine, 100%. In this space, sometimes it's important for us to journey into the darkness to find that the way is lighted ahead.

John Dehlin [03:58:35] And I, and I am just so excited to hear what comes next. But I just want to make that point that the casualty in all this is, I don't want to say wasted lives, but wasted time and the damage to the individual of spending years or decades of a life grinding away at something that has no positive end or conclusion other than catastrophic failure. And then all the people that they bring along with it. And North Star just represents a continuation of that grind down to. To utter destruction, right?

Kyle Ashworth [03:59:18] 100%. And I still don't see North Star at the end of the day as the. The group that solves this issue. It is still a soft landing it is a place for people to fall out of Mormonism into this space. Ones who are ultra closeted, not understanding, I mean twisted about by every wind of doctrine like we talked about earlier. They, they're just shifted back and forth, tormented in Mormonism regarding this space. They can fall out of that a little bit and get into a basket, but that basket is not sustainable. And, and you're right. At the end of the day, how many people are we going to lose via suicide or separated families or marriages or dissonance or lack of opportunity? The bandwidth that we've discussed over and over again, how much of that at some point does the church say okay, that's enough, or how much are you northstar going to require of your members to get to the point where they either break or walk away? I think there's a metric in there and I think northstar is well aware of where that metric is at. I think the church is well aware of where, where that metric is at. They can look at it and say what is it going to take? We know that Kyle's lifespan is about this much in the church. What are we going to create to make sure Kyle gets to another re up another resubscribe? And is it a promise of exaltation? Is it another temple recommended? Is it a new calling? These are all familiar territories for us in Mormonism and the church has become experts at it. Why are multi level marketing businesses booming in Utah? We learn from the very best. Why is one of the fastest growing religions in America Mormonism? It's because of that very principle that you're talking about now. And it's not sustainable and it's not healthy. Because at the end of the day, I mean, you may win your free trip to Hawaii based on the number of solar panels that you're going to sell or alarm systems, but that doesn't work. In our real lived experiences, there are no solar panels at the end of this or trips to Hawaii at the end of this version of our experience. The joy is right here in the journey, I think, and navigating this in a more healthy way, being open, honest and unfolding this in a more authentic way, which is where we find that trip to Hawaii. That's where we find the benefit.

John Dehlin [04:01:37] And I'll just say I've been hard on Ty Mansfield and Jeff Bennion and others in the past. And, and, and Dave. Dave Matheson. Dave Matheson, yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [04:01:50] David Matheson.

John Dehlin [04:01:51] Dave Matheson.

Kyle Ashworth [04:01:52] We were right the first time.

John Dehlin [04:01:53] I've been hard on Ty Mansfield. I've been Hard on Dave Matheson. I was frustrated with Josh Weed and, and Lollyweed before they, you know, it all unraveled for them. But the, but the blame isn't with them. It's just like with Quentin Cook, you know, a correlation like the blame lies with, with the, the quorum of the 12, with the First Presidency. They're the ones that empower all of this. They're the ones that enable all this. Just like Ty Mansfield learned to structure North Star in a way to have plausible deniability and an arm's length ability to have these secret programs that by all intents and purposes are full on emotional infidelity. The Mormon Church is using North Star as a way to keep people on the hamster wheel as long as possible. And North Star is literally the church's ability to keep something in an arm's length. Arm's length to have plausible deniability. But the power starts at the head. And so, so Ty Mansfield, Dave Matheson, all those other folks are just, I don't, I don't say victims because they're complicit in their adults. But, but, but the power, the, the responsibility is at the head. Right?

Kyle Ashworth [04:03:12] Yeah, I'm, I'm not arguing that. I do think, though, baked into that whole experience is the church's ability to. The fact. I think there's more to this, that when you say arm's length transaction, the church doesn't want. The church is. The church is okay and completely comfortable in letting a North Star be the sacrificial lamb. And I think that's. Yeah, that is the greatest part of this whole discussion. That the church want. The church sacrificed Evergreen, the church will sacrifice North Star. And this will, this process will happen. There will be another North Star that comes up again and the church will sacrifice.

John Dehlin [04:03:49] They'll always be the New Awakening 100.

Kyle Ashworth [04:03:51] Yeah. And, and that is, that is not. All we have to do is look at the church's history. We just look at the history of it. And the church has continued to, I'll just say, all the way back into 1879 when George Q. Cannon sits with the Saints and says the only way to deal, 1897 in this example, the only way to. From the General Conference pulpit in Salt Lake City, the only way to deal with the homosexuals or the gays or the buggers sodomites in Zion is if you are faithful enough, Latter Day Saints, if you are faithful enough, God will murder them and remove them from Zion. And when God didn't murder the gays, who was to blame. You needed to do better, Mormons. You needed to do better in April 9th of 2019 when the church says we are rescinding the November 2015 policy. We are tired of our members causing contention and disharmony around this topic. We had to pull it away for the health and benefit of all of us members. You didn't do a good job. You weren't faithful enough. You were too contentious against the LGBTQ community. Because of that, we had to pull this away.

John Dehlin [04:05:09] And I'm working on a series about high demand religions and undue influence and just the behaviors of of unhealthy organizations. And this is one of 31 techniques that Luna Lindsay Corbin has identified in high demand religions or cults. And it's called blame reversal. The organization can do no wrong. And whenever the organization's prophecies don't become fulfilled, it's always the members fault.

Kyle Ashworth [04:05:38] We see it. And so again, Evergreen will become. Evergreen was a sacrificial lamb. North Star will become a sacrificial lamb. And individuals have become sacrificial lambs also. Like there have been certain individuals within this space who speak out. And because they speak out, because we have allies in this community, they're demoted and they're denigrated and they are sent out to pasture either by emeritus authority or excommunication or complete ostracization. And that is what we have to look forward to in this space until the ship looks exactly as straight, heterosexual, as colorful or non colorful as the church.

John Dehlin [04:06:18] And I and I just have to do a quick shout out. There was an amazing blog post, Facebook post that my, my friend Gerardo pointed me to. Is it Nathan Kitchen who talked about kind of the four waves, four waves of the gay Mormon experience or something like that? One of the most profound, well written, important Facebook posts I've ever read that kind of talks about these different phases that we've just described.

Kyle Ashworth [04:06:45] Yeah, it encapsulates all. Encapsulates all these experiences. And in a very relatable sense, not only and it was written well enough that it wasn't just designed to the queer Latter Day Saint, but also anyone in the periphery who pays attention to this space can see how this unfolds and how this is impacting our experience.

John Dehlin [04:07:10] But then the other thing that I want to make sure and mention is the thing that I mentioned at the beginning, your document on the record, a chronology of LGBTQ messaging. Like I'm grateful for how many post Mormons care about the LGBTQ experience to become allies. And there's a lot of them. There's also a lot of them who just don't care and they've got their own things to worry about. And this is not my, not my, not my battle, you know, not my circus or whatever they'll say, and they just kind of ignore it. A lot, A lot of progressive and post Mormons and of course, orthodox Mormons, but if you ever wanted just the ultimate case study in a lack of the church's doctrines, changing the church's theology in evolution, but most importantly, a clear demonstration of the lack of inspired leadership. You read this document on the Record, a chronology of LGBTQ messaging, and you see how heinous it starts out and then where it is now and how many iterations and reboots and refreshes. There's been, I don't know of a better, better example of the lack of inspiration amongst church leadership, especially when you consider the carnage that that collects and the collateral damage. It's not just Kyle. It's not just Kyle's wife. It's not just Kyle's children. It's tens or hundreds of thousands of husbands, wives and children and for 100 plus years. Am I wrong?

Kyle Ashworth [04:08:42] No, you're not wrong. And I created the on the Record for that reason. I, I genuinely wanted this to go away. I did everything in my power to want to be straight and want to. Who wakes up? I mean, this is a tough topic. Who wakes up in the morning saying, you know what? I think being gay is what I want to be. I think I want to be a female. Society loves it. There's no ridicule. It's fashionable, it's hip. I mean, I, I would never be fired for who I am at my job. I would never be. I mean, the idea of beaten or harassed. Yeah. Or losing a home or economic opportunity, I think this is something that I want to pursue. Nobody does that. At least. I've not yet met anybody that does that. I've met case studies and people to the contrary who did everything in their power to be as normal, air quote, normal as possible, who are just genuinely decent, good people who only want to get up in the morning, do good in life and move on. And I wanted to genuinely be that person. I wanted to be the person who could be happy in his own skin and to be authentic and open about who and what I was. And because I wasn't finding that in all of the spaces that I ventured into, I felt like I did everything. And I even went through that cycle of feeling like, well, I Did everything. But did I do everything perfect enough? And once I finally overcame that mental hurdle, feeling like there is room in the atonement for my mistakes and my shortcomings. So therefore, I have to lay all this on the. The cross and altar, put this on the altar. Once I got even through that scenario and then I started going through all these subgroups like North Star and the Evergreen stuff, the spillover from Evergreen, I realized there is no changing this, and I have to be authentic on my own. And if there's no changing this, how did we get to this point where people like me were led all the way down this path with false hope? And that's what I did. On the record, I wanted to understand the chronology from start to finish. What has the church said on this topic? What were the very first opportunities for them to come in and invade this space? And where did the messaging become wrong? Because over the years, I've been able to speak with bishops and stake presidents and general authorities on this topic, and all of them can't side so many of them will never, ever, ever make concessions in this space based on religious doctrine. Almost all of them make concessions on this space personally. Why are we in that position? Why are we using archaic traditional doctrine to govern how we personally treat people? When I can meet someone and by getting to know them, realize how good they are, why does that take a backseat to what somebody? A Brigham Young, a George Q. Cannon, a Spencer Kimball told us to believe about this topic 30, 40 years ago? It makes no sense. Likewise, bishops, stake presidents. When you're counseling your LGBT members about what to expect and experience in this space, don't for a second tell me what it's like on the other side of the aisle. Having no experience on that side of the aisle, you do not understand what it's like to be gay. I don't understand what it's like to be straight. We're on two totally different paths here. I tried to be straight.

John Dehlin [04:12:47] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [04:12:47] Are you willing to try to be gay? To understand my experience, I've yet to see. I did this. This is another tangent. I did this exercise in Nevada with a stake presidency that I was kind of sharing this message with, trying to get them to teach a fifth Sunday fireside in their stakes. And they kept getting over the fact that why aren't mixed orientation marriages more of an option? And so I asked the stake president and one of his counselors. I'm guessing it was his second counselor. So we're in the high council room with a couple of the high Councilors and the stake president and his two counselors. So I asked the stake president to stand up and he moved over to the side. Then I asked one of his counselors to stand up and I said, here's what we're going to do. We're going to discuss mixed orientation marriages and how they work. I said, I want you to grab the hand of your counselor and then as soon as you grab hand, I want you to affectionately. And I couldn't even say the word affectionately. The disdain, the dissonance, the uncomfortable nature of that stake president. He wouldn't even hold the hand of his counselor because he knew where I was going with it. And the fact that I was going to relate hand holding with an experience that might feel sexual or romantic. He wanted nothing to do with it. Had he been in a situation where they were praying together or blessing somebody's sick child, his hands would have touched his counselor's hands in a second because that was non sexual. And so what they have done is they've tried to take a topic, mixed orientation marriage, and pull the sexuality side out, pull the connection out of it. That's what the church has done. So effectively, they've said as friends, as acquaintances, as partners, enter into these mixed orientation marriages. But what they won't talk about, which is remarkable because the church always wants to talk about sexual, but they want to pull the romantic part of that relationship out. I couldn't get that stake president to hold the hand of his counselor, not for a million dollars would he do it. Because when I told him, it was like, look at him, hold him with feelings of affection in a romantic experience. The stake president couldn't do it. And that's exactly what we get through in mixed orientation marriages. Gay men to do 100%, that's what we're asking gay men and women to do, is to enter into mixed orientation marriages where they're, their experiences are not congruent with how they were designed. And the church has been, this has been, this is not new, this is not new territory for the church. This is something they've done over and over and over again. But again it's back to the real lived experiences. When you start understanding the real lived experiences of people who are, who are navigating this space, we start making some progress. And I know listeners who are listening to this episode right now will shake their heads saying, that happened to me 2015. That happened to me when I realized this church was treating my nephew or my niece or my son or my daughter this way. They're not the people that the church has purported them to be. They're not repugnant, they're not perverted, they're not maladies, they're not diseased. They're not murderers or akin to murderers. All the descriptors that Spencer Kimball said about gay people. When we get to know people and understand them in personal experiences, our heart changes and our whole experience. I saw this with Governor Cox a few weeks ago, speaking about the transgender bills that were on Capitol Hill. And he said, legislators, we have to stop this. And he met a young man, and he talked about meeting the experience of this young man who was transgender. And he said, something inside of me changed. I know that young man. That young man is an incredible young man who was once born into a female body, who has transitioned into a successful, vibrant human being. And Governor Cox, the governor of Utah, was able to meet him and be able to shake his hand and get to know his story better. And just one experience saved that transgender bill from being passed in the state legislature because the governor said, we can't do it. We have to get to know these people. In 2017, Elder Ballard did the same thing. He said, as a church, you're doing a terrible job. As Mormons, he said, we are not doing good in getting and listening to and understanding the experiences of the LGBTQ community. We must do better. When he says we must do better, it means we're not doing good. And as Latter Day Saints, you have to do a better job at getting to the place where you're okay listening to the experiences of the LGBTQ community. Because if you don't, the only sound that you will hear, our feet leaving those chapels one at a time, families at a time, as they exit the chapels, never to return again. And that's what Mormonism has to look forward to in this space. Yeah, it's tough.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1437

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to part two of what is turning out to be, for me and hopefully for you, an epic interview with Kyle Ashworth. Hey, Kyle.

Kyle Ashworth [00:00:09] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [00:00:10] How was lunch?

Kyle Ashworth [00:00:10] It was great, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:12] We just spent four, four and a half hours with Kyle as he told us about his Mormon heritage, his Mormon upbringing, you know, his experience as a closeted, suppressed gay Mormon youth growing up in Utah, hyperachiever in high school, stumbled upon the. The pamphlet that said mission, marriage and children were the cures to his homosexuality. And I say that in air quotes. And so Kyle went on that Mormon hamster wheel, as we call it, and served his faithful mission in Michigan, got home, found his wife, married her and started having children. And as he, as he says in the notes, he was still. Was a super gay. What was the word?

Kyle Ashworth [00:00:57] Hella gay.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] Hella gay. And. And we. We ended our last episode with him finding North Star as his last hope. And that's when we were able to dig into the North Star cuddle parties and the North Star experiences. And the way we kind of ended it was just talking about how, in Kyle's view, North Star offers false hope and just sort of an observation through a discussion of Mormon church history in this phenomenal document on the record, a chronology of LGBTQ plus messaging within the LDS Church that Kyle has created. It's a PDF that he keeps on his website, Latter Gay Stories. Right. Just understanding that the church has over a century of just rebooting the. The LGBT issue, kicking the can down the road, and then rebooting and rebooting. Kind of like the Microsoft Control Alt delete whenever the blue screen of death happens. So many metaphors. Anyway, so that's kind of how we left it. And I really recommend you guys, all of you, if you care about the LGBTQ issue or not, if you just care about Mormon truth claims and LDS Church leader claims of revelation and prophetic authority. Freaking read on the record the chronology of LGBTQ messaging. And there's a new version of it up. But anyway, that's kind of where the first part of this interview with Kyle Ashworth concluded. And there were a few points in the episode towards the end where I stopped you so that we could really flesh out the North Star part. But there are two parts that I remember most. One was kind of your. Your bathtub experience. You know, after you realize North Star isn't working, you're starting to listen to Mormon stories, podcast and gay Mormon stories and other podcasts. And you talked. You talked about sometimes having to step into the darkness to see the light. Let's rewind to pretend you hadn't talked about any of that. And let's talk about, I mean, part two is going to be your, your decisions to move away from this path. Basically getting off the hamster wheel. That's part one is being on the. Getting on the hamster wheel and staying on the hamster wheel or the rocking chair as you call it. And I think part two of your interview is, is getting off, getting. Getting out of the rocking chair, getting off the hamster wheel and then helping others maybe have a chance of getting off it too. So where, where should we begin in your story? Where do we pick up in your story?

When the Mixed-Orientation Marriage Began to Break Down

Kyle Ashworth [00:03:26] Very fair and great analysis. Yeah. So I think what we pick up is the, the point where you brake or where the wheel breaks or where you realize that you're in a rocking chair. And for me, that, as we discussed, I was reaching out to every available resource possible that I could find to try to better understand this experience. And Northstar seemed to be it because it felt most connective to where I was at in a religious sense. It was a faith affirming support group that allowed me to help reaffirm my faith. And Northstar provided that for me. But at the same time, I needed more. And I was, I was out researching, trying to find additional stories, trying to find people who are like me that made it outside of the hamster wheel, that paroled who graduated, this really difficult space that we were in, trying to understand if there were anyone out, anyone else out there that could possibly be a returned missionary like myself who also was a father who was married in a mixed orientation marriage that was trying to make it work. So I did lean into a couple of resources. One of those was the Gay Mormon Stories podcast, which was just a lifeline to me. I remember reading or listening to the Montgomery's episode. Just a fantastic family who had a gay son who came out and their journey through John.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Right, It's Wendy and Thomas.

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:01] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] And their son's name is Jordan. Jordan. Jordan, that's right.

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:04] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] It's been a while.

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:05] Yeah. That was years ago. I mean, we're talking 20, 13, 14. Ish.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] This is when mama dragons were starting to emerge.

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:12] Yeah. So this was a long time ago and I was deeply entrenched in those stories. Bill Bradshaw did a number of episodes with Daniel Parkinson that I just found.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] And with me.

Kyle Ashworth [00:05:22] Yeah, just incredibly fascinating dissecting and understanding this experience. So here I was like, just mining through each of these stories, trying to find places where they were congruent but also at the same time trying to create a path for myself. And I would sit in the bathtub just weeping as my wife is taking care of four kids on her own. Essentially trying to figure out exactly why she isn't the model wife. What's going. What the issues are in our home that isn't creating connection between she and I.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] So how had your marriage devolved? I guess we should say what you're. At this point, you're four kids in what if you had to describe what your marriage was lacking, what it was like for you and what it was like for her to be in a Mormon mixed orientation marriage. How many years in? Seven years into the marriage, seven year itch. Like what? Describe what it's like to be in that marriage. Seven years in for you and for your wife.

Kyle Ashworth [00:06:28] For me, we were roommates.

John Dehlin [00:06:31] For her, we were roommates meaning no sex. Is that basically. Very little emotional.

Kyle Ashworth [00:06:38] But we were roommates. We cleaned the house together because it was messy and we had, we had really messy roommates. They were our kids, but we kept a house together. I provided financially for the home. She was always a stay at home mom. So she took care of the kids, which I was ultimately grateful for. But we were roommates in terms of her just trying to. She and I both lacked this connection that a healthy relationship should have. That should not only be emotional, but physical and spiritual and as a family, even temporal. All of those key components to a relationship were missing, if not missing completely, they were denigrated or not at the levels they should have been in. And so there was a lack of communication in our relationship because I couldn't really tell her what was going on in my brain. I couldn't really tell her what my experience was like because it was important for me to not bring sexuality into the conversation. I was convinced this will go away. Why? If you think the relationship is bad today, what happens when I actually tell her that I'm gay and trying to make this work.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] So seven years in, she had no idea.

Kyle Ashworth [00:07:53] No idea she knew for sure. We both were absolutely aware that there was an elephant in the room. But what she wasn't aware of was the name of that elephant, what the mannerisms of that elephant were, and how to understand life with an elephant living in your living room. That was a difficult part.

John Dehlin [00:08:16] So to her something was off, but she didn't know why.

Kyle Ashworth [00:08:18] She didn't know what it was.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] And you knew what it was?

Kyle Ashworth [00:08:20] I 100% knew what it was. Yeah. And that, I mean being Laying in a bathtub listening to these podcasts should have been indication enough that there I was creating distance between us. And that wasn't the only experience. I mean, there was a disconnect in our relationship and it was really. She did on many occasions try to force something out of me. Just be honest with me, tell me what's going on. Not, not that she was aiming for sexuality issues, but she was just, I think, really trying to pry and understand what was bothering me. A lot of the, economically at the time was, was just due to the market, due to our businesses. I mean, there was just a lot of stress in the family. And I think that was an easy camouflage for me just to say that there, there are plenty of things going on in the world, in our world. I'm just trying to keep it together. I work in a super stressful, high risk profession and it was everything that I was doing just to keep the lights on and things taken care of. So I think she recognized the fact that I was swimming in, in stress, but I was stable enough that the family was okay temporarily, we were doing fine, and that's all she needed. Like, that was enough.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] You really can hide a lot on the Mormon hamster wheel because between earning a good living, taking care of all the kids, serving in your church, callings, who's got, you know, if you don't, if you don't have time for real friendship and real emotional intimacy and even sexual intimacy, it's because you're just so busy, not for some other reason. Right.

Kyle Ashworth [00:10:01] And it's so easy to camouflage. Yeah. And I think we're all probably guilty of walking that, that line. It's not just our closeted friends and family members. We, we've all figured out those coping mechanisms and, and I was the same. And I think she probably recognized those within herself as well. And so she was able to give us a little, to give me a little space in order to, to let that work out. And I think ultimately what she wanted to know is that, like, are we okay? Like, are we as a relationship, as a couple, you're not planning on bailing on me? Are we okay? And I would give her enough of a nugget to say, like, I'm there and we're pushing through, so let's just keep hammering it, hammering through today's problems and tomorrow will get better. I mean, isn't that just been this whole message that there, this is the Les Mis, like, tomorrow is another day and the sun will rise again and one day more. And that's what we kept giving it, that's what I kept giving. It was just another just stay on the wheel, stay on the wheel. But eventually that wheel falls off. And there were a number of ways where either the wheel falls off of its hinge or I fell out of the wheel. I actually think it was probably a number of both scenarios or versions of both scenarios. The wheel started becoming unobtainable or non functioning for me. And a lot of that just started surrounding my experience. The more I looked at my experience as a gay man trying to navigate a healthy relationship and a mixed orientation marriage under the umbrella of Mormonism, the more I looked at that, the more I realized that all of these well intentioned Latter Day Saints who taught me that I was broken, that if I pursued this life I would be alone and that I was unhappy and void of spiritual experiences. All of those leaders who continue to press those messages seemed to revert to a different messaging when their messages were challenged. And the more we challenge those rhetorics and the more we challenge the messaging from the church, the quicker the church was ready to move from that space and create something new or create another boogeyman, someone else to fear, some new disaster to cling onto. And I just started picking up on that, just not only on a historical, through an historical review, but also in my own personal life. And I just saw all of these things that we just discussed in the last, the last segment. All these things just kept. I spent some time in retrospect and just looked at all those things and said to myself, this is the definition of insanity. I'm doing the same thing over and over and over again, expecting a different result. And when that result is not happening, what should I expect and how long is this sustainable? So that aspect, the issues of revelation, church history started building up. I wasn't seeking an opportunity to bail out of the church. I wasn't hoping that the church was not true. I just looked at my real lived experiences and compared that with the promises made in the gospel and had a really difficult time of squaring those up. The second was I was tired one night and ended up going to bed much earlier than I usually fall asleep. And I got into bed after, I think I was in the bathtub or the shower, got into bed, put my phone on the windowsill next to our bed and went to sleep. And sometime in the night, likely right after I fell asleep, my wife took my phone and this was her, this was one of those times where she just knew that something was going on and wasn't Able to put a name on the elephant in the room. And she thought that if she could go through my phone, I think that was one part of it. Her initial approach was that she took my phone to play Candy Crush. And when she opened my phone, the first thing that she saw was my Northstar chats. Here were the. These chat groups that I had been involved in in Northstar. And I, in those messages, just bore my soul and just shared exactly where I was at and the struggles that I was going through. And here was my unsuspecting wife who only wanted to play Candy Crush.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] That.

Coming Out to His Wife and Its Aftermath

Kyle Ashworth [00:14:30] The other thing that was crushed that evening was her whole world.

John Dehlin [00:14:34] What would she have read in those chats?

Kyle Ashworth [00:14:36] Just the dissonance that I felt. Like, how. I mean, the Joseph Smith Liberty Jail experience. Oh, God, where art thou? Like, why have you forsaken me? What more do I have to do in order to overcome this? And why? I feel like I am the sacrificial lamb at this point. I feel like I am the one that has given everything to the church. Where is my relief? Where is my covering? When are you here? When are you going to save me? Surely that I'm not alone. There are other people out here that are trying to make this work. There was nothing nefarious in any of those messages. I mean, I was scared to death of even doing anything that. That looked remotely like infidelity in my relationship. I remained completely honest and true and virtuous to my wife. The last thing I'd ever want to do is sacrifice that. I wanted to make this work. I wanted to move forward with life and just be okay with who and what I was. That's what she read. And it broke her heart. If ever I felt unconditional love, it was in those moments when she woke me up with phone in hand and said, do we have something to talk about? That was tough. That was tough space. And for her, how do you process that type of information? For me, when you're closeted and everything in your life is geared to never coming out and protecting and creating these barriers around yourself. Fortresses. And I'm not talking about single levels, we're talking multiple levels. A fortress to protect the world from seeing who you are behind that curtain. When you. When in just a second of waking up and seeing your phone and that. Those chats, these Google groups on your phone glaring in your face, you have to make some incredibly difficult decisions in. In a moment's notice. And those were tough conversations. That was a tough conversation. That was a tough night.

John Dehlin [00:16:33] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm just struck, struck by two things. You know, you're probably almost 30 by this point. How, how old are you at this point? This.

Kyle Ashworth [00:16:43] I'm 33.

John Dehlin [00:16:45] So you're 33. That's the age Jesus was right around there, 32, 30.

Kyle Ashworth [00:16:49] Such symbolism.

John Dehlin [00:16:51] So you're, you're 33 by this point, you've been married how many years?

Kyle Ashworth [00:16:58] Almost 10 years.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] Almost 10 years. The most significant part of your life up until then, possibly you'd been keeping from the person who's supposed to be most important to you in your life for the full length of your relationship. That's just what scenario in the world would make it so. The most significant part of, of a spouse's life, they keep from their spouse the entire time. That's mind blowing. It's a super unhealthy and it's mind blowing. So, so that's one thing that I'm, I'm struck with.

Kyle Ashworth [00:17:44] But it also was.

John Dehlin [00:17:45] Go ahead.

Kyle Ashworth [00:17:46] It also was standard operating procedure within Mormonism when you as a bishop had someone come to visit you and they said, I feel like I'm gay, or have same sex attraction prior to them getting married. The advice the bishops were given was enter into a mixed orange. Just get married. Don't tell her, don't tell her, don't tell her. Yeah. So what kind of world? This is the world that was created for gay Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] Yeah. And then the second thing that I'm struck by is that think about the torment you're under. You're like writing these Liberty Jail, Joseph Smith, sort of like messages of my God, my God, you know, Jesus on the cross, why is thou forsaken me? Messages. And you had done literally nothing. You'd never had any gay physical interaction with anyone, ever.

Kyle Ashworth [00:18:35] Never kissed a, kissed a guy or held the hand of a guy, ever.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] So. So like to contrast the level of torment where you're like, probably, if not you, others who have been in a similar station are probably wondering whether they want to stay alive and yet you had never actually done anything. That's. I. It's hard to even comprehend that.

Kyle Ashworth [00:18:57] And you're in that space with those feelings and experiences surrounding you. And the messaging that you hear from the church is, you don't have to feel this way. This will be taken away from you in the next life. Is there not a greater clarion call to those who are in those vulnerable situations to where the church says to you, if you don't want to experience it here tomorrow, you can be in a Place where you don't experience it at all because it will be taken away from you. It'll go away. I think that's probably one of the situations when I realized that this clarion call to suicidality is coming from the very top of Mormonism in this space where they have built the messaging around this idea that sexuality, alternative sexuality, or even gender, non conformity is only a trial of this mortal experience. And if you want to be completely rid of that trial and this attraction and this temptation and all of the, the words, the descriptors that have been used against the sexual minorities and gender minorities among us, kill yourself because tomorrow in the afterlife, you won't have to experience this. That's heartbreaking. That's the suicide that we have to battle. Those are the friends that we lose and those are the experiences that the queer person has to reconcile as being a gay Mormon. Knowing that that messaging still exists to this very day on the website, the Church's official statement today still provides that. That this is immortal experience that will be taken away from you in the next life. When we're in 2021, with ample anecdotal and scientific data that proves that none of this, just this is. We don't have any evidence that it goes away in the next life. We have evidence in this life that it doesn't change and that we have to embrace it. The church is still not there. They're still not in a position where they'll embrace that language. They still want change therapy. They still want us to believe that this all goes away. And a lot of that was that conversation. So, I mean, how do you ruin the experience of your wife or your husband? In some respects, your spouse in those moments deserve your true and honest fidelity, both spiritually, mentally, emotionally, and for my wife, I think some of the greatest things she had to battle was that betrayal trauma, this idea that she didn't sign up for this and she didn't have a choice. And that's real. There are levels of betrayal trauma in both of our situations. I felt betrayed by the Church. I felt like the church had an opportunity to shoot straight and be honest with me. But I didn't get that. I didn't have that opportunity to, to make a rational decision. I made a decision based on a hypothesis. This was a hypothetical experience. Essentially, I was a hamster. And the church has said, we're going to experiment on you and you and other people just like you. And unfortunately, I was a casualty of that experience. I entered into a relationship thinking that my sexuality would Change and as a component of that relationship. And when it didn't, I found myself having a really hard conversation with my wife, unsure of what the future would look like.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] So what did you tell her when she wakes you up, has the phone in hand and says, do we have something to talk about? What'd you say?

Kyle Ashworth [00:22:37] Yeah. So when you're in those moments, and I think those who are closeted or have been closeted or in this situation can relate to these ideas that if someone found out about who I am, I have to have some contingency plans. I have to have some plans in the back burner that if my truth really does come out, what do I have planned and what is in place for me just to take off and run away and not have. There's a fight or flight experience that I think is familiar to many of us. So in the back of my brain, I always had contingency plans trying to decide whether or not it was ever worth coming out. And if it wasn't worth coming out and someone outed me without my permission or without me being in charge of that, what would I do? And for me, even with four kids, I knew that if someone found out about who I was, I would leave. And I would leave. I would just abandon them. I would take off, leave the family, leave the family. Why would they want me? Like, who would want someone like me? And I had four kids. My twins were nine months old at this time, less than a year, and I was okay. That should give you an indication as to where, as a faith, we are putting the mental health of our queer members. When it's okay to look at your family, who should be the center of the gospel, and say, I'm okay leaving them, because once they find out who and what I am, they wouldn't want me. So my contingency plan was to. I had money saved away that if she said, you're out of here, I literally or she couldn't handle that messaging. I would take the money and run to an island, never to be seen again. And I was okay with that. I had come to the point over a number of years to be fine with that. And when we say this is a sensitive topic, but not one that isn't overcomeable, not true. This is deep. These roots run so deep. And there's so much that the church is ingrained and formatted around this topic that needs to be undone because ultimately we hurt and we're hurting people. So what do you say to a wife who's sitting there on the edge of the bed holding your phone. You try to minimize it as quickly as possible. You don't know what she did read and didn't read in my situation. I wasn't afraid of what she was going to find. So in terms of fidelity, there wasn't big issues surrounding what she could have read. But how do you, how do you process the fact that your husband is gay and you're not? And so we had those conversations. She said, are you, Are you gay? Took a long time for me to say that, to even say yes. I didn't. I'd never even said it to myself in the mirror like I hadn't had. I mean, I joked around throughout a lot of my experience talking about being hella gay, but I had never really looked in the mirror and told myself, kyle, you are gay. Because to acknowledge that would be some level of defeat that I had lost, that all of this that I'm working toward is for not. And so I'd never gotten to the point where I could admit that. And that's what she wanted me to do. She wanted me to admit that that's what I was. And it was really difficult for me to do that because I didn't know if that's what I was. And it's difficult to know if that for sure was what I was without having experience on that other side of the aisle.

John Dehlin [00:26:25] Yeah, because you had never even held a dude's hand. How are you supposed to really know for sure if you're gay?

Kyle Ashworth [00:26:30] Amen. And again, that's my messaging back to the church. It's like to these bishops and stake presidents who are ministering to people in this space. I mean, I get that your intentions are good, but the way you're doing it is not conducive to a healthy mental health situation for your, your queer members. You have no idea what the other side of the aisle looks like. And without, without understanding what the other side of the aisle looks like. How can you properly counsel and, and minister to these young people primarily in their journey forward? It's, it's, it's mind boggling. It's mind boggling to me. So I did, I had this conversation with her and just lasted hours and hours. Like, we went through a lot of it. I discussed a lot of the things that we discussed in the previous episode, just about my experience growing up and family life and college and my mission and dating. I think she ultimately felt hurt, which she rightfully should feel hurt over our dating experience and the disconnection that I still felt. And so we chose. We spent all night talking all the way until the sun came up that next morning, which was. It was tiring because I still had to go to work that next morning. And we still had kids to take care of throughout the evening, throughout the night and the morning. And that next day allowed me a little bit of time just to process. And it was funny because it was a little bit of a renaissance for me as well. Here I was out. Someone for the first time knew who and what I was, and the sky didn't fall. And again, if ever I felt unconditional love, it was in those moments with my wife as we discussed this topic. And she was so kind and so gentle, and she just wanted to understand this experience. I contrast that with some other experiences where there's acts of infidelity or times where the wife finds out only because the husband cheated or got caught in a compromising situation. That's really difficult space, too, because I think in my situation, I would prefer my situation over others only because I didn't have that extra baggage. There wasn't a cannonball or a wrecking ball that destroyed that portion of our trust and our relationship. But she. I think, honestly, just reading through. I mean, this has been the long version of answering your question, but I think for her, just reading through those chats and her gaining a sense of where I was at through years long discussions was enough that she saw that I was genuine in my desire to make this work and genuine in just trying to be a good husband. And what little and what few resources I had at my disposal, she could tell that I had worn them out to nothings. There was no more tread left on those tires. Everywhere I had dressed, driven, I had just taken that vehicle as far as it would go. And then to have to turn around and walk back home and find another vehicle to start all over again. She just saw that constant methodology. And I think it was heartbreaking to her as well.

Faith Crisis, Leaving the Church, and Divorce

John Dehlin [00:29:40] We mentioned Pleasantville and the Truman show and the Matrix, those types of movies that many who have experienced a faith crisis relate to sort of that Truman show moment. If you. If you've seen the Truman show where the. The lights fall out of the sky and crash onto the street and Truman's looking around. And it's kind of that first moment that he. That he realizes there's something up, there's something wrong, and then there's that moment later in any of these movies where the person just realizes that everything that they thought was wrong and where it all makes sense once they realize what the reality truly is, does that make sense? And we've talked about that from a faith crisis perspective. And we've, we've talked about that to some extent about, you know, the, the gay Mormon perspective. That half had to have been a powerful moment for your wife as she was trying to, in her mind, make sense of the courtship, make sense of the lack of intimacy in the marriage, how you guys had grown apart. That must have been a really. And I wish, I wish we had her here to kind of tell her side of the story in some ways. But what, what must have that been like for her to, to learn this horrific thing and to discover the answer that allows everything to make sense? Does that make sense?

Kyle Ashworth [00:31:06] Yeah. And her response to that was. And she, I mean, you encapsulated her experience really well. She said, finally, finally, I no longer need to walk on eggshells.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] I thought, what she mean by that?

Kyle Ashworth [00:31:22] All of the things that she had worried about. She wasn't a good enough mother, she wasn't pretty enough, she wasn't a good enough housekeeper. Maybe she should be out in the workforce earning an income. Was there family issues? Her family or my family? All these eggshells she walked on and she realized it was none of those things. The disconnect was me. The disconnect was my inability to connect with her on an emotional, sexual, physical level, which are all key components of a healthy relationship.

John Dehlin [00:31:51] And so, but it's also so Mormon to focus on the men. And in so much of this discourse of mixed orientation marriages, it's all about what we're doing to the man, to the gay man, and we're harming the gay man. And we're making. What about what it's doing to the straight female spouses? Like, we, because we're a patriarchy, we're like, oh, yeah, well, that's, that's secondary. It's the, you know, even in the post Mormon discourse, the focus tends to be on what the man endured. But what about what the straight spouses, mostly women, are enduring? Right?

Kyle Ashworth [00:32:25] Yeah. And it breaks your heart because I remember she opened her journal and there was a, there was a note that she obviously had carried with her for many, many years. And it was something she wrote in Young Women's. And it was all the, all of the qualifications that she required in a spouse returned, missionary honors, his family, active temple recommend holding, and all these things I was able to check.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] You checked all the boxes.

Kyle Ashworth [00:32:54] What she didn't have on there was straight. And that was the thing I think probably broke my Heart the most. I qualified for everything except just that one thing. And so much of you, you want to say I can eliminate that one thing. I can overcome that one thing. Because look how many other things I was able to check on this list. I am all of these things. But the one thing that I'm not is the thing that prevents me from achieving greatness in all of those categories, which is a happy marriage. Without a happy marriage, what do we have? We're roommates again. And I don't think anybody in a romantic, intimate relationship should just be roommates. There should be a connection in that relationship. So the more we discuss this. And it went on to the.

John Dehlin [00:33:46] Sorry, I just have to say one quick thing. This is where again, we're repeating ourselves. But the law of chastity falls down in the sense that again, you and I are both for sexual fidelity, we're both for sexual responsibility. And the fact that you weren't allowed to have a normal developmental teenage years where you could find out what you were attracted to, who you're attracted to, who you weren't attracted to, pursue that so you could have healthy normative courtship experiences in high school, which is what normal kids get to do. Right. The fact that you didn't get that hurts you, but it also hurt her because you entered the marriage without all the information. And she entered the marriage. If we talk about informed consent, she deserved to know, you know, before she married you, what, what your, what your core sexual attractions were. And the law of chastity did neither you nor her any service. And that's not to bash on sexual fidelity. It's just showing the holes in and the flaws with the Mormon law of chastity.

Kyle Ashworth [00:35:01] And I think, I think we can find common ground in this space with the Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:35:06] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:35:07] Because we may not have to say full sexual experiences are required. I think they're benefit could be very, very beneficial, especially in situations like mine. But why are we stigmatizing hand holding? Why are we stigmatizing together Dancing.

John Dehlin [00:35:24] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:35:25] And those opportunities for, for men choosing 100.

John Dehlin [00:35:31] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [00:35:31] Yeah. Why are we stigmatizing these, these abilities for us to connect sexually with other humans when we are so fearful that the end result will just be sex? We are really damaging a large swath of our population with this rhetoric. And interestingly enough, early apostles would kiss each other. Early apostles would hold hands. There were signs of affection. And I'm not saying that we've eliminated all signs of non romantic affection. As an American populace, we have a lot of those signs of affection. Are gone. In some countries, especially European countries, salutations with a kiss are still very appropriate. Italy, we've completely eliminated that out of the American system. But also in a very conservative orthodox religion, anything that looks, acts, quacks, or operates like a duck has to be completely eliminated in this space for fear that you might actually get to the point where you could have sex. And that's really damaging. We see that even, you know, just pull sexual orientation out of the equation and look at the strength of youth and see what the church has done in terms of modesty. They say, girls, you have to wear certain clothes in a certain way at certain length to not influence the opinions of the male boys or men who look at you. We don't want your dress and appearance to negatively impact the thoughts of these young, as if they can't control their own thoughts and as if they aren't already x raying that woman below their clothing. Like they are conditioning in these methods. They're conditioning us to believe and act in certain ways that, that in the end it doesn't matter. And what we're doing is we're hurting the individual, we're hurting the youth. Young woman who believes that she has now chewed gum because that one time she showed her porn shoulders or wore a spaghetti strapped to the beach and got ridiculed by her young women's president or a bishop who made a comment about how short her shorts were. Again, I think we need to find some common ground to allow healthy relationships to form and not stigmatize the opportunities or availabilities of same gender experiences. Had I had that, I don't even know where I would be. Like, I don't even know all the time. And all the loss and all of the bandwidth that it took to get to the place I'm at today. I don't know where I would be at if I had a bishop or even a family or parents who said it's okay to hold hands, it's okay to go to the steak, dance together and dance with another guy or a junior prom without hand having that ridicule. I mean, I think those are some of the things that we can look forward to. And again, that's another great example of a blind spot that exists within not only Mormonism, but traditional Christianity as well.

John Dehlin [00:38:29] Yeah, for sure. So you have, you have this hard conversation, you stay up all night and all of a sudden just bringing back to your wife, it all starts to make sense for her. You said that for her. She said she doesn't have to walk on eggshells anymore.

Kyle Ashworth [00:38:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] Where did things go in the conversation from there?

Kyle Ashworth [00:38:47] So she said, do you want to, do you want to get into a gay relationship? Is that your ultimate goal? And it absolutely was not my ultimate goal. In fact, I even told her I felt repulsed by the idea of being in a gay relationship. I mean, even, even sexuality or sex as a topic to me was repulsive. It just wasn't anything that A, had experience with or B, had a desire to get into. I want to keep my little nest together. I'm not ready to dump my kids out of the nest. Don't dump me out of the nest. Like, we are still brooding our chick chicks and growing our little family.

John Dehlin [00:39:23] And what that is, is it's internalized homophobia. You just like you said, how could, if they were to find out you were gay, you were going to go off to an island. Because how could anyone love a gay person? That also reflects how you felt about yourself. So even once you're admitting you're gay, you're also saying, I don't want to be gay. I hate this about myself. So the coming out is not in any way joyous. It's a coming out and then an immediate self denunciation of who you are. Am I Right?

Kyle Ashworth [00:39:52] Yeah, 100% is absolutely correct. In my experience. It was. I wasn't. There are some who can come out and, and be okay with, with that aspect of who they are because their, their life is void of so much of that shame surrounding this topic and which I, I commend them. And sometimes I have that holy envy, that desire to be where they're at or if I would have had that ability to be where they're at. And so I have, I have those rough conversations. I'm saying things to myself out loud that I have never said before, and I'm saying things to her that are promises for the future. And so we, we elect to. To get into couples counseling and to have this ability to try to take aspects of this new revelation, incorporate it into our relationship and try to make it work. We hired a therapist who was well known in this space, who himself also was in a mixed orientation marriage. She said, do you know of any therapists who you would recommend, want to visit with? And my only qualifications, I said, you're welcome to choose a therapist, but I would only prefer to have somebody who has LDs and someone who understands the LGBTQ community, because I want to get to the heart of the therapy that's going to help me. I don't want to have to explain myself in multiple sessions and try to bring a therapist on board with what religion has done to me, where religion is at. And so she found a therapist who helped navigate my world a little bit. He did wonders for her in terms of betrayal, trauma, and walking her through. I think it was good for her to be able to see a second aspect of a man who entered into a mixed orientation marriage, he himself being gay, and then contrast that with our, our experience at home. And so she was able to see two separate experiences that were very similar in nature. I just didn't ever feel like I was getting the tools to help me become a righteous Latter Day Saint who was also gay without being gay. And that was really difficult in my quest for personal therapy, to try to hold on to a world while sacrificing another one. And the sacrifice wasn't that I was trying to claim and hold on to something that I had previously had or experienced, but I was trying to figure out how to unwind myself or untangle myself from that identity. So that didn't influence what I really wanted to be. And that was just an active, run of the mill, white picket fence, Mormon, just decent job, good family, lovable wife, cute kids, and an occasional vacation every now and then. Yeah, that really was. I didn't really aspire for anything more than at that point I'd resigned myself to just say, if I can hold it together long enough, that's where we'll be. And so we went through a number of months of counseling. About eight months into our couples and individual therapy counseling, my wife asked me a pretty pointed question. One day. We were in the bedroom, sitting on the edge of the bed, and we were looking. I was looking into the mirror and she's like, what are you thinking about? And I said, I don't even know what I think. I was just kind of in a daze, just looking through the mirror at myself. And it looked back through to another mirror into our bathroom. So I kind of had this temple experience, this, the ceiling room experience where you can see the endless hall of mirrors. And I just, just kind of staring into this space. And she said, kyle, do you see yourself happy in 10 years? I sat through and looked through the mirror for a minute and tried to contemplate the best answer because she could tell, like, I wasn't happy. And she said, do you see yourself happy in 10 years? And my best answer was, well, I made it through the last 10 years, I think I can do another 10. And she said, we need a divorce. It's tough. And I think something along the lines of we both deserve to love and be loved was kind of the follow up conversation. When you're in those moments, you realize that everything that you're doing is to avoid that outcome. None of us want to. I've yet to meet somebody who chose to get married with the intention of divorcing. That's where the wheel fell off. That's where the rocking chair lost its rocker. We both deserve to love and be loved. And I couldn't give her a hundred percent, and rightfully so. She couldn't give me a hundred percent. She couldn't give me what was necessary for me to have a fulfilling relationship. Even though I didn't know what that looked like. All that I knew is it wasn't working. And she was strong enough to say, you need to be happy, even if it means I walk away. It was almost if she knew I would never do that on my own, I wasn't going to walk away. But she gave me the permission to walk by doing it herself. It's profound. It changed our lives for the better. Because she could breathe again. I could for the first time, inhale. I was a fish and she was a bird. And I had laid on the shore for so long, suffocating to be with

John Dehlin [00:46:42] her

Kyle Ashworth [00:46:45] and to try to experience life on the shore. We were both designed to process oxygen for sustainability. She had lungs and I had gills. I needed to get back in the water. She recognized that. And once we had that conversation, things got infinitely better. Our conversations were real. Our discussions were deep. We began really for the first time in our relationship to work as a team, recognizing that her well being meant more to me than my well being. And likewise, we were finally in a relationship. We were on the same page together. And it was divorce that put us on the same page for the second time. If ever I felt unconditional love, it was in those moments with my very best friend who just asked for a divorce. And I thank her every day for wanting that and giving me the words I couldn't say myself. Because I would have just kept trying and trying and trying until it got to the point where I could try no longer. And I remember another gay father who discussed this situation who said, I got to the point where I had to look at my kids and let them know that I would rather them have a gay dad than a dead dad. And I saw myself getting to that point too. There was some aspect of this that was okay, that I could be gay and I didn't know what the future would look like. I didn't know if I would ever date. I didn't know if I'd ever get into a relationship. But what I did know is that opportunity wasn't unobtainable anymore, that there was an opportunity for that if I got to the point where I could continue. And it was mind boggling at how freeing that was where I no longer was on my mission. One of the requirements that we had to do every month was read the Beware of pride talk from Ezra Taft Benson. And there's a line in there that says pride. Essentially speaking of pride is being in that position where we find ourselves worrying more about what man thinks of us than what God thinks of us. And I had spent all my life worried about what man thinks of me and what God thinks of me. I had spent none of my life wondering, what does Kyle think of Kyle? And this is so counterproductive to Mormonism. Everything we learn in the church is service to other people. When we discuss anything in the gospel, it is selfless acts and never being selfish and never taking care of yourself. I like to call this the airplane experience. It's the secure your own oxygen mask before helping other people. In the event of this is an emergency, I am in crisis. And when we're in crisis, the last thing that we need to do is run around, running around trying to help other people. It was time to secure my own oxygen mask before trying to help other people. I had to stop worrying about what other people were thinking. I had to stop worrying about what God might have thought of me and just start focusing on Kyle and start taking care of what Kyle needed. And it was such foreign territory to me. It was unbelievably. I've never spent time trying to figure out exactly what Kyle needs. I was always concerned about somebody else. Whether it was the opinions of my co workers, my own employees, the people I was trying to do business with, my wife, my family, the church as a whole. All these people desired some portion or some amount of my attention. And there was no self care. There was no self care. I hadn't taken any opportunity to lift myself up or to even praise myself for my own accomplishments. Those are some of the reasons or some of the things that happen when those walls come tumbling down. When, when we talk about coming out, that's the portion of coming out that means so much to us. It is pulling the curtain back or eliminating the multifaceted, multi level walls that have been created around you as a fortress. And once you do that, I mean, you feel Like a foreigner in your own skin. But it's also so liberating. And there's this opportunity to finally be free. So that was the discussion that we had, I mean, months later after the original coming out experience, and it literally changed our trajectory for the better, hands down, for the better.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] That is such a powerful and moving story highlight in my 2000 hours of Mormon Stories podcast episodes. That was a highlight. And Kuda, if Jamie ever watches this. Kudos to you, Jamie, for that love you showed to Kyle. Thank you, Kyle, for sharing that. That was. This is breath. Breathtaking, that experience.

Kyle Ashworth [00:52:52] You had to be there.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] I mean, I. We talked about this at lunch, but I just want to record this thought. You can fast forward if you don't want to hear it, audience. But the church is just so good at bringing people in to help the church get stronger and stronger and healthier. And it's almost as if it's this big machine and the fuel of the machine is people's lives. And you, you feed the machine and feed the machine with your life until your life gets ground down and ground down and ground down until there's almost no life left. And then when you're there, sprawled out on the sidewalk, the life almost literally having been sucked out of you, you know, then of course, if you leave and you leave yourself vulnerable to the church being able to point back at you and say, see, look, see, look. What happens to these people when they leave the church. When in reality, it was your experiences in the church that had ground you down and Christ's teachings have somehow been twisted and perverted and distorted into be selfless, which literally means have no self. Selfless means serve the church. I mean, serve God, which really means serve the church, which really means just your whole purpose in life is to never really discover who you are, never figure out how you're wired, what makes you tick, what gives you life and is sustaining kind of the oxygen. It's to just hold your breath and be selfless, have no self and assume the identity that's handed to you and then feed, feed, feed, feed, feed the church. And never at any point of time are you even allowed to stop and say, who am I? And what's important to me? And you just said it so beautifully when you said, I spent my whole life worrying about what God or others thought of you when you had never in 33 years stop to ask, what? What do I think of me? Who am I? What's another way of saying, who am I? Who is Kyle? And if you want to be Around. If you want to be around, not just for your children, not just to provide alimony and child support to Jamie, but to be around for you, you had to step off the hamster wheel.

Kyle Ashworth [00:55:34] Isn't this a novel concept? I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable to me that we're in this space where we. And I'm. This is not unique to me. I mean, I think you hit the nail on the head. This is a, this is a systemic problem in Mormonism and we can change that. It isn't about loud voices and bolstery rallies. This is you and I standing up saying I'm doing this for me, this is my individual worth. I mean, for all of these mantras that we find in Mormonism, at what point do we really take them to heart and divine worth and intelligence and opportunity and all of the things that these young women values and young men values that we speak of to our youth? When are we going to allow ourselves to stand up and enjoy that independence and to be able to thrive in these spaces? You just have to stop doing it for an organization and start doing it for yourself. For the first time, be selfish.

John Dehlin [00:57:01] Well, the first word that came into my mind is selfish, but I don't like that word. The second word that came into my mind is self centered. And self centered still has a negative connotation in today's society, but I think that's a word worth reclaiming. Self centered. Yeah. Be centered in who are, who am I, what makes me tick, what gets me excited, what gives me meaning, what gives me purpose, what gives me life, what gives me oxygen. And then once I'm centered in that, it reminds me of a conversation Oprah once had. You can't give what you don't have, Right?

Kyle Ashworth [00:57:40] Yeah, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] If you are centered on self knowledge and you have the life giving oxygen of authenticity, internal and external authenticity, then you start to develop the resources to be a blessing in other people's lives. But if you have no self, you're a dead man or dead woman or dead human walking and you have nothing to give anybody else. You go, you don't lose your self to then be able to give to others. You find yourself and then you're able to give to others. And that's, that should be the essence of Christianity. Being self centered so that you can be of good to other people. Does that make sense?

Kyle Ashworth [00:58:31] It does. And I, and I, and I like that analogy. As you were talking about being self centered. Just in my mind I'm imagining the sun. Do we fault the sun for being the center of our universe. No, because if we did, we know the moon wouldn't hold its gravitational pull against the earth, which means our seas wouldn't rise and our oxygen wouldn't form. Like, when we start looking at the importance of being self centered and the importance of all things in its order, we start to understand why it's important for us to get to that spot. Because when things are in order and when things function as they are designed, and in my case, when I truly can live to the measure of my creation, things begin to function in harmony and things begin to work as they should. So. Yeah, makes sense. I understand that and I think that's a great analogy.

John Dehlin [00:59:25] Well, I mean, I'm fast forwarding a little bit, but I'm seeing how much you're able to give to the LGBT and ally Mormon community. And it's only because you're in a place of health and wellness now. You couldn't have done this back then.

Kyle Ashworth [00:59:41] No, I. And that's why I say absolutely. As time.

John Dehlin [00:59:44] You're barely surviving yourself.

Kyle Ashworth [00:59:45] You must secure your own oxygen mask before helping other people. I see a lot of people who jump into this space with their oxygen mask still on or their, their oxygen mask borrowed to another person while they are suffocating in this space. And it's not healthy. You have to get to that part where you are more self centered. I'm gonna remember that from here on out because I do like the self centered idea.

John Dehlin [01:00:08] Yeah, there's nothing wrong with being self centered.

Kyle Ashworth [01:00:10] No. And I'll push back a little. Like, oh, John. John won't say selfish because he's still. He's got too much of that Mormon ingrained in him, which I think we're all guilty of, but it makes sense. Like, I want to stew on that a little longer. I think the, I think the self centeredness is a great analogy. And it can work and it fits for sure.

John Dehlin [01:00:28] Yeah. And maybe selfish works too. I don't know. I mean, I didn't like the term queer when I heard it had been reclaimed. I'm like, no, that sounds negative. And now I'm like, oh, yeah, it makes sense, but words can grow at you. You can change their meaning. Wow. So. So Jamie. So Jamie sets you free. So it wasn't. It wasn't a part of. It wasn't a hostile divorce then? Is that what you're saying?

Life After Divorce: Healing and Self-Discovery

Kyle Ashworth [01:00:56] Super amicable divorce. In fact, I do remember her saying, and it made complete sense. There had to come a part in our marriage. Where we had to break it. That's the tough part about divorce, especially in these situations. And she commented, she said it, in some respects would have been much easier if he would have been unfaithful, because I would have had something to say. That's what broke the relationship. There was something that damaged the relationship. But looking at our situation, it was difficult for her to say, we're divorcing, because you tried everything possible to be something that you weren't and that you tried to overcome something that you didn't create in the first position in the beginning. And so she really worked hard and needed something to kind of break that. And there was one point in our relationship where she just had to push herself away. We remained super amicable as we were walking our way through the divorce. We owned a number of businesses and a lot of real estate. And so there were things that we had to start dissecting as part of this divorce. And so we did that while sleeping in the same bed and living in the same house, knowing that we were divorcing. She also. I mean, as we were separating our lives and trying to move on, at some point she needed to break that, and that was wise of her. That was something that was in my blind spot completely for me. I was now finally getting what I needed in the relationship, but she needed to also have that something, and that something was breaking it. So there was a little period where we got a little upset with each other, but I think that was by design. In fact, it was by design. That was something that she needed.

John Dehlin [01:02:45] Allows you to.

Kyle Ashworth [01:02:46] To divorce. Yeah. To make it break. Yep. To really break that relationship. The result of that was we did. We did amicably. Amicably divorce. We waited until our kids were out of school. We just wanted to make sure that by the time May rolls around, the kids were out of school, they would have summer break. She wanted to move out of our home, which shocked me, because we lived in a really nice, beautiful, big home. And to leave me all there by myself with 6,000 square feet. I wasn't sure what the thinking was behind that. And she was just ready to get out, and she just wanted away. That was a really difficult part of the divorce for me, knowing that the halls that once echoed the laughs of my children would be silent. I sat in this big home all by myself, almost as if it was another metaphor of the poor choices that I'd made in my life. And if I would have just tried a little harder, I wouldn't be in this situation. I would hear the kids giggling down the hall again. I would hear sounds of toys rolling down the carpet or falling down the stairs and that I was alone by myself in this gigantic home. All these metaphors and all these experiences were just pouring into my brain. Back to the. Are you sure you made the right decision? Is this what you really wanted? I mean, just all those feelings of inadequacy again, the systemic and very deep rooted feelings of internalized homophobia existed and they were trying to take root again. It's as if I wasn't able to pull all of them out and they were trying to reach the sunlight once again. And. And all those experiences were compounding themselves while she had packed up and moved out. And we didn't tell the community why we divorced. We didn't even tell our families why we had divorced. Should back up a little bit. I told my parents I did sit down and discuss that with them, but she didn't discuss that with her parents at all. And we made a joint Facebook post together and just essentially said, well, we're divorcing, we're still good friends. And then we kind of adopted the mantra, two homes, one family. And that's really the momentum that we've gained from that point forward was that we are still one family. We just have two separate homes. And she, I mean, interestingly enough, she started dating before I ever dated. She thought, for sure. And maybe this is a message to those women out there who find themselves in mixed orientation marriages or the end of their marriage and wading into the wide and unruly world of dating again. But my wife was convinced that she wasn't dateable. Who would want a woman in her 30s with four children who just left a relationship with a gay man? And the reality of that was plenty of people, and we don't sell ourselves short for those experiences in our life that of course, all of us have things that we're not proud of in our past, but what are we doing about those? Dwelling on them, sitting in those rocking chairs again, going back and forth, only to waste all of your energy to stand up and realize you didn't move an inch, running on that wheel continually to fall out, and the only thing you are is dizzy and tired and famished. She jumped into the dating world and started dating before I did. And in fact, I think that was probably the biggest reason why she had to make a Facebook post, because it seems like she was going on a date in the community and she didn't want people to wonder why she was on a date with Somebody that wasn't her husband. So I think she sent out.

John Dehlin [01:06:28] Vernal's a small town.

Kyle Ashworth [01:06:29] She sent out the Clarion call to say, hey, just FYI, if someone sees us in town, this is what's going on. And I think it was to her benefit because she did run into a number of people that she knew. So it didn't take too long for word to spread. A lot of people, I'm sure, wondered. In fact, I had those conversations with plenty of people all the time about. It's interesting how in situations of divorce, how people want to pick a side. They'll come into a relationship, especially with mutual friends, and then they'll discuss the divorce with both sides, determine which one is the most salacious or the one that they can gain the most mileage from, and then that seems to be the wagon they hitch their horse to. And we didn't want any of that. Like, we wanted to make sure that people knew that we were still very good friends, that we still were very amicable, we were still spending time together, and we wanted people to know that this was our decision and it was none of their business, the details behind that. And I think that proved to be beneficial to. To our story. And it helped us really just to set the relationship on solid ground. We eliminated the opinions of others and just focused on us. And again, that was. Was a principle that we months earlier would have never considered, but. But that's where we're at. She started dating. Our divorce was finally official, and I got into a relationship and started dating a guy, which I put myself out on the market. So I don't even envy anyone who is dating because it is such a hard world to date. And it's a hard world to date. Being formally straight in this relationship, jumping into a world, dating for the very first time, men, that is. This is all foreign territory. And as I kind of date, I mean, I'm still very Mormon dating. I wouldn't even hold a hand, wouldn't kiss, wouldn't anything in this date, just because I was still so Mormon, like, still so petrified about what I could experience and still questioning if I really did make the right decision. Just all those feelings that go through

John Dehlin [01:08:44] your brain, you don't undo the internalized homophobia in 12 minutes or just by going out. A date or two that takes probably years to unravel, if you can ever fully unravel it. Right?

Kyle Ashworth [01:08:57] It does. And I remember Jamie had went on a date with a guy and she made a comment to me that just stuck in My gullet for a really long time. And she said, I went on a date and made out with a guy, a straight guy. For the first time I realized why you needed to divorce me. I just got kissed by a straight guy. And to me it was like, oh, that's perfect. Yeah, like that, that is, that is the, the epitome of loving and being loved. And I want that. Like I, I want that for her and I wanted that for me. And so I started dating a guy more long term. We were in a relationship for a little bit and my kids and I had a little chicken farm and we, I call it my subsidized chicken factory because my kids were raising chickens and selling the eggs to pay for a Disneyland trip. And subsidized because chicken eggs make no money. But for my kids it was a great little hobby. And we had, the kids had saved up like 52 bucks or something in egg money and we were ready to go to Disneyland. It was a family vacation that we had already planned prior to the divorce. And it had all just kind of unraveled all at once. Well, we were divorced, I was in a relationship, and we had a family vacation planned. So how was this going to work? And Jamie asked me one day, she said, are you planning on bringing your boyfriend to Disneyland and going to California? And I said I hadn't considered it. I mean seriously, I thought about how, how this was going to work. And she said I'd be okay if he comes with us. He's part of your family, so if you're okay with it, I'm okay with it. And so here we go. We book flights, add him to the flight, I should say, and we're heading to Disneyland as a family. Four kids, ex wife, me and my boyfriend. And we take off into the wide world of California and experience life in this new dynamic. Two homes, one family. And the interesting, the reason why I bring this up was we, while in California, we had to stop at the kids had some cousins, my ex wife's brother and sister in law lived in Yorba Linda. And so the kids wanted to stop by and see their cousins they hadn't seen in California for a while. And so this was an interesting dynamic because no one on her side of the family knew why we divorced. And if we were just to arrive at their house and it's Jamie and me and my boyfriend and the four kids, how awkward would that situation be? And so that's what we did. We gave them a heads up, a little bit of heads up and said just FYI, we're vacationing plus one. Kyle's got a boyfriend with him. This was like a second coming out experience. And they were wonderful. Like her brother and sister were wonderful. I couldn't say anything better about that whole experience. Like for me it was just, it was a great way of paving or even laying a foundation to start beginning this new life. Especially being. I mean, it's one thing to be out in public with a guy in California where no one knew you, but for the first time I was in a situation where people who knew me, now knew me and now could see a part of me that I had never talked about or disclosed before. Not personally or even as a family. And now here, there were a lot of things going on. I mean, here was my ex wife and her family and me and my new little family all together in one room discussing things that were of no importance and there wasn't. It wasn't awkward and it wasn't unusual. It was unusual. It wasn't, it wasn't one of those situations that I was dreading or looking forward to getting out of. It wasn't one of those. I have to. The first opportunity, the lull in the conversation, let's bail out of here because this is uncomfortable. It was none of those things. It was just a very relaxed, open, honest, fun. Just like I was still part of the family conversation. And that meant a lot. I mean that was, that was a changing. That was a. And I know her brother and sister in law will hear this. And so for me, that was a monumental experience. Okay, I got that out because that was another example of unconditional love

John Dehlin [01:13:46] when

Kyle Ashworth [01:13:46] they had every reason to be offended and upset for ruining their sister's life. But how they chose to react by the way we were reacting was really beneficial to all of us. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:07] How is that for the kids?

Kyle Ashworth [01:14:08] Yeah, 100%. And so they still remain good friends to this day, even though we're exes. I mean, I don't even consider them ex brother and sister in laws. Just good people.

John Dehlin [01:14:26] One family,

Kyle Ashworth [01:14:28] two homes. Yeah, we're absolutely still those elements of family for sure. All right, enough, Enough crying John.

John Dehlin [01:14:42] That was gold. That was so money. I'm loving this so much. I'm trying to remember if on Mormon stories I've. I've had on video someone discussing a mixed orientation marriage like this before. I'm not sure I know I did an audio years ago. I'm not, I'm not sure I've done this. So this is, this is so powerful. Okay. I have A question. What is happening to your faith during all this? And I don't know if you're able to talk to Jamie, but, like, I'm. It's not yours to tell Jamie's story, but I'm wondering if she's able to be so loving as a believing Mormon or if her faith is evolving. But you don't have to answer that about Jamie, but I do want to hear how this is affecting your faith in parallel. I'm just curious.

Kyle Ashworth [01:15:29] Yeah, very multifaceted. Earlier on, all the way back into, like the North Star experience, I was really navigating this nuanced faith space. It seemed to me like the. The message that came out of North Star, it seemed to be those experiences that really were the healthiest in northstar were those where people could be far more nuanced. And in that North Star space, there isn't much room for nuance. When your mission statement of the organization is that you uphold the doctrines and policies of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, there isn't a caveat in there or an asterisk that says, and some things can be nuanced. It's either you're all in or you're all out. And that is a typical Mormon. I think that's regular in Mormon vernacular. And so I had become more and more nuanced because the more I could bend and shift some of my beliefs, the easier it was for sustainability and survivability. I had some key issues about revelation. In the midst of all of this, there were a number of things happening on a church side. There was a reorganization of the ward. And the stake president called me in with the intent to. To discuss whether or not, I think there was. It was either a worthiness interview or a find out interview to fill a vacancy in the bishopric. This was well after Jamie and I had decided that we were divorcing. And to be in that situation where they're discussing future callings, knowing and claiming that was under the guise of revelation was just mind boggling to me because if you. If my church leaders were being directly influenced by the spirit to make certain callings, clearly they should know that our family at that point was in turmoil at best, where things were completely upside down, and that there was no opportunity to even serve in that type of a calling or any future calling, given our current circumstances. I also was. And through my, through my therapy, I remember my therapist asking me a question one day that I think really was the catalyst to me really making the leap out of Mormonism. And he said, do you think God sends spiritual experiences to gay people? And when he asked that question, I immediately said, no way. There's no way God would spend and spiritual experiences to gay people. And he just. He gave the typical, like, just the him and ha. And he followed up on our next session and he said, I just wanted to ask that question again. Maybe I didn't ask it in the right way. He said, I want to ask it one more time. Do you think God would give spiritual experiences to gay people? So immediately it took me a second because I couldn't figure out where the difference in the question was at. Do you think God would give spiritual experiences to gay people? He said, let me just give you an example. He said, a lesbian couple, they attend a birthday party with family members. And after the birthday party, as they're all sitting there together as a family, they look around and, and realize that they feel really blessed to be able to be part of that family. They feel really blessed to be able to have those opportunities of sharing those experiences, even though they're a gay couple. Would you call that a spiritual experience where they attribute those feelings of happiness to God? And something in my brain clicked for a second, like I had attributed only spiritual experiences to worthiness and to the ability to obtain a temple recommend or pass an interview question. And I hadn't really. I hadn't really correlated spiritual experiences to real lived experiences, realizing that perhaps God does bless us with certain things in order to help us see or seek happiness in our. In our lives. So I stood on that a little longer and, and came back with a different answer. And I said, well, I think there is. There are perhaps opportunities where God could give spiritual experiences to gay people. And the more I jumped into that, the more I just started analyzing my faith and analyzing what was important in my life. What was real belief as opposed to traditional belief? What were things in my experience that were foundation, bedrock principles as opposed to things that other people told me based on their experiences? What had I actually experienced and lived? How could I contrast those real lived experiences with the hyperbolic or even hypothetical experiences of other people? And my whole world just started unraveling. And I was well into my faith crisis by the time I really came out. Because of those. Those feelings of abandonment and, and just sheer tire, I was. I was exhausted, spinning my wheels, not getting anywhere, and, and again, having that. That Liberty Jail moment. So I had discussed. I mean, another key aspect of my faith crisis was November 2015 policy, where the church excluded or called members of the LGBTQ community apostates and prevented their children from being baptized. I had a lot of fear in my gut because I didn't know what the future looked like. This was a year before I came out. But I knew that if I ever came out, my children wouldn't be able to be baptized. That was something that was real to

John Dehlin [01:21:46] me, that this wasn't just theoretical for you.

Kyle Ashworth [01:21:49] No, it wasn't just a policy. My wife was arguing the policy and upholding the church and I was trying to provide counter arguments. I remember laying in bed and just being so frustrated that she didn't see the other aspect of this, the real human side of the November 2015 policy.

John Dehlin [01:22:04] That was before.

Kyle Ashworth [01:22:05] This was before we came out. Yeah, so before I came out. So this was absolutely something ingrained again back in my quiver of internalized homophobia.

John Dehlin [01:22:15] And do just a, for just a second. We have so many listeners that have never been Mormon before. Can you explain just really briefly the November 2015 policy by the Mormon Church?

Kyle Ashworth [01:22:26] Yeah. So November 5, 2015, the church released. November 4th of 2015, the church updated their handbook saying that children of gay members would not be able to join the Church. The official process to joining the LDS Church is by means of baptism. So at age 8, those children are baptized into the church. If a child has same sex parents and those same sex parents were the primary parents, or if those parents had custodial custody of the children and their children or their parents were in a same sex relationship, the children would have to disavow that relationship, move out of the home of the same sex parent, and then under the direction of the First Presidency, the governing body of the Church. Once approval is given from the First Presidency, only under those three circumstances could that child be baptized. That also applied to additional blessings or rites of passage in Mormonism, I.e. temple recommends or the priesthood for young men. So the children were disadvantaged. Problematic because Mormonism believes in not being subject to Adam's transgression. So children aren't guilty of the sins of their parents. Unless you're a Mormon in November of 2015 and you're guilty of your parents sins by association. And without disavowing those parents in that relationship, you couldn't join the Church. Further, the Church then said that that same sex parent, parent in the same sex relationship would be deemed an apostate, that they were in apostasy of the doctrines of the Church and that they were to be excommunicated.

John Dehlin [01:24:17] Which put same sex marriage as being worse than what in the Mormon hierarchy of sin murder, worse Than murder, rape, pedophilia, you know, child abuse. Because you could murder in theory, rape, engage in pedophilia, child abuse, whatever. And there isn't a mandatory excommunication, but the November 2015 policy forbade children from getting blessed, forbade children for being baptized of gay. Of with a gay parent. Right. Who's. Who's same sex, married, forbade Mormon boys from the priesthood, caused children to have to renounce their parents, the gay parents, marriage if they wanted to join the church at 18. All of that barbaric. And it made same sex loving, committed relationships or marriage, which were legal by that point, worse than rape. Pedophilia, you know, abuse in the eyes of the Mormon church. True. Am I overstating it by the voice

Kyle Ashworth [01:25:24] of my servant's voice or God's himself? It is the same. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is. That was that rocked the world.

John Dehlin [01:25:33] Yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [01:25:34] And more important than that, the church. The church had instituted this change quietly into its manuals. And then some prominent podcast, er got

John Dehlin [01:25:48] a hold of who will not. Who will not be mentioned or named at this time.

Kyle Ashworth [01:25:51] He who shall not be named got a hold of a copy of that November 2015 policy and in his small reach distributed this November 2015 policy of exclusion to the general masses. And it was hysteria. I think that was a dark day in Mormonism. The fallout of that was not only the head fake, like what direction is the church going at this point, but back to our discussions of real lived experiences. So many Latter Day Saint families with gay children in and out of these newly formed relationships, newly formed legal marriages. Relationships have been going on for some, in some situations, decades. But the newly formed and legal, law abiding and often, many times monogamous relationships were now deemed as apostasy and mass resignations. People left the church by the thousands. I think in. They said in just one protest they had at Salt Lake, 5,000 name resignations were processed just in that one rally at, at Temple Square. So this rocked Mormonism to its very core. And I'm not sure, and I know I'm, I'm positive the church has never recovered from the November 5, 2015 policy of exclusion, excluding these, these members out of the church.

John Dehlin [01:27:27] Yeah. Thank you for giving that background. And so then to go back to your story at the time when this comes out, you know, you're gay, you're seeing the church do this, you're trying to make it all work. And Jamie at the time, not knowing any better, being loyal and faithful to the church, was defending the policy.

Kyle Ashworth [01:27:48] Yeah. And given the. Given the amount of experience she has in this space, it was completely understandable. And I don't follow.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] You were gay?

Kyle Ashworth [01:27:57] Yeah, she didn't know I was gay. She didn't know gay people. And our world wasn't surrounded by people in this. Surrounded by this topic. So, I mean, there was zero hate or animosity because that's the way she thought. I just was hoping for more empathy. Again, being closeted, and in these situations, you do have queer members of your family. You have members of your family who are lgbtq. And when you say these things and some of the ways you react to certain topics, those LGBTQ members in your family pick up on these things, and we remember them. A lot of this has to do with the way that we look for our friends and our allies in the community. And that was a way for me to try to judge where my wife was at in this space. And it was very telling and saddening to me that that's where she was at. But it wasn't that I was that far away. It's just there were certain segments of that policy that really, really, really hurt. And knowing that at some point it could influence me and our own children was deafening. I just didn't. I couldn't understand a way forward for me or for the church. So I sat my bishop down in a little meeting and discussed with him a lot of the concerns of my faith. There weren't. I mean, I was smart enough. I had read enough church history that there weren't gigantic things that rocked my faith or rocked my testimony in terms of. Just like when someone says, oh, you left the church because of the CES letter, or you left this church because of this particular teaching. None of that. I think it was more of a conglomeration. It was the cornucopia of Mormonism. I looked at Mormonism for what it was, and the more I had to dissect it, I essentially started at the steeple and had to go all the way down to the foundation. And as I continued to dissect all these parts of Mormonism that was either beneficial to me or part of my story, I would have to dissect it, set it off to the side, and reanalyze the next part, because maybe it could be the part that held up the steeple. By the time I got done with this over a period of time, I was all the way down to the dirt, and there was nothing left of my membership in the church. Everything had been dissected, and there were things that were just inconsistent in all those parts and pieces. So I went to my bishop with that, and I just said, here's where I'm at. I'm all over the place. I'd already come out to my wife. We'd already discussed divorce. So it wasn't about saving myself or saving my marriage or going to the bishop for ecumenical support. It was more like he says, I know there's something going on. What's happening, we need to discuss this. And so, I mean, he literally just pulled me off to the side, and we went in and we had a meeting. I just kind of. I started in with a number of issues that I had in terms of revelation. Blacks in the priesthood, polygamy ban. I talked about the November 2015 policy. I talked about the church's continual treatment of gays. I think I brought up gays enough that he was a little uncomfortable that I was spending so much time. And he says, look, when it comes to gays, the church has already covered that territory. We're all on the same page about how we feel about the gays, which was really painful to me again. But I also didn't want to out myself in this meeting. It wasn't the time or the place. I went through, for about an hour and a half, going through a number of items. We discussed the CES letter because there were things in the CES letter that I thought were valid complaints and valid arguments, anachronisms. There were. I mean, just historical issues, DNA evidences, the Heartland model, just a lot of different things in the church that he was brilliant enough. He was a CES director, or is that what they call him? He's like the principal of the CES in that area of the seminary program. So it wasn't like he had just fallen off a turnip truck and become a bishop. He was. He was versed in church history. So he said, look. And for a moment, I actually felt like he was really candid and really honest with me. And he said, look, I trust you and I value our friendship. If there's something that you found out that I don't know about, I want to know about it, too. Like, share your sources. Let's have a discussion about this. So I told him, I said, go read the CES letter. I said, just start with a CES letter and read the CES letter and then let me know what you think. Like, three weeks later, and I'm pretty not active. In fact, I think I only went to sacrament meeting. Only our ward does a fifth Sunday fireside. And it was my bishop who then frames this fifth Sunday fireside based around issues that some of his members are experiencing with their faith in terms of church history. And so I have to attend this because it's either his. Yeah, it's, it's, it's in your honor. It's clearly not multiple members, and it. Perhaps it could have been multiple, but the, the timing was painfully ironic that just weeks after we had this really long, deep dive discussion that he comes up with all of his rebuttals to the ces. And I wasn't even like, I don't know that I've ever cleared 100% the whole of the CES letter. There were just points in there that I. That were congruent and matched some of my own experiences and I related to them. And there were, there were parts of it that I thought Jeremy did fantastic. There were other parts of it that I was like, nothing burger and I thought were stretches. So the CES letter wasn't this grand,

John Dehlin [01:33:46] smoking, you know, silver bullet.

Kyle Ashworth [01:33:48] Silver bullet, yeah. For me at all. It just, it was a different way of putting a new twist on issues that I had already had previously. So he holds a fifth Sunday fireside. It was not anything I had surprised. Nothing surprised me in this experience. But what did surprise me is I did start seeing some nuance in the membership. He discussed a little bit about LGBTQ issues, He discussed a little bit about blacks in the priesthood. But it was always framed with, we don't have all of the. The knowledge today. Once we get to the other side, there'll be more light and knowledge, and then all of these answers will be. All these questions will be answered. That seemed to be the fallback on every one of these scenarios. And he turned it into a little bit of a question and answer. A few of the members, just stalwart members were jumping into to rescue him and to defend the faith. And so it was, it was pretty evident that he didn't have answers for my questions. He didn't have answers. I mean, he's a bishop in a ward that likely was experiencing some hemorrhaging. In fact, I knew of a couple members that did leave. I don't. Didn't know why they left, but they did completely resign their memberships, causing mixed faith relate, mixed faith marriages. So I knew that was prevalent in our ward. Is.

John Dehlin [01:35:10] This is in Vernal.

Kyle Ashworth [01:35:11] This is in Vernal. Yeah. I'm Lisa Hacking.

John Dehlin [01:35:14] Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

Kyle Ashworth [01:35:15] Yeah, she was on the podcast. That's Vernal.

John Dehlin [01:35:17] When you heard the Hackings, you Kind of got the sense that they were the only ones who have ever had a faith crisis in Vernal A little bit, yeah. When I know that's not true.

Kyle Ashworth [01:35:25] But it surprised me that when I. When I learned that, I also reached out to them, I'm like, well, welcome to the club. Birds of a feather flock together. It's interesting to me, though, too, like, and maybe we start. There are a number of members, I think, in those outlying communities that are hemorrhaging because they don't have that direct contact with Salt Lake City. And it's one thing to be here and to be able to run down to Temple Square and to be able to have a more generalized connection to the church. And it's something completely different when you're hundreds of miles away or even continents away from Mormonism. And I think that's a very real problem for the church. But also, I mean, its history alone is problematic, and there are a lot of unanswered questions. For me, there just wasn't enough. The ultimate thing that really hurt my whole experience was he released me from the Young Men's in that meeting and just said, if you don't feel like you're wanting or worthy of a temple recommend. I never said I was not worthy. I just couldn't answer all the temple recommend questions honestly in terms of supporting and believing that certain members of the church were called of God. He said, then I have to take your temple recommend, and as such, I have to release you from your calling. I hadn't even made it home, and he had contacted my wife and asked her to come in for an interview. And in order to save face with the ward by releasing me, he wanted to call her as a primary president in order to. That on Sunday, when they announced that I had been released from the Young Men's, they could say, and we called you as the primary president. And then that way it was easier for them. If anyone ever asked any questions, it was. There was no question to be asked. They released me because they needed her in the primary, and that was the death knell that was for me, that was enough that we had gotten to the point where the best of Mormonism was what other people thought of us. And this was a cycle that I now had learned on multiple fronts. And I was done worrying about what other people thought of me and the fact that it was happening now right in my. Right in my own home, under. In a religion that I had devoted my life to. I was done, and it was over for me. I had disassembled the church well enough to know that I had no desire to put it back together again, and that I also didn't destroy my faith. I didn't destroy what I had known in terms of what had been built. I set it all aside, and I just put it away comfortably. And I knew that if in time, I wanted to rebuild that and put those pieces back together, I had that opportunity to do it. It was similar to a house of cards. There are a number of ways to take down the house of cards. You can blow it up into millions of pieces of confetti, or take that card down 1. Take that house down one card at a time. I guarantee you, we all have 52 cards to deal with. The confetti takes years and years and years to clean up. When you blow it all up, takes much less time to take all those cards down and then put them away. And in time, you may want to pull some of those cards out and reuse some of those in your new house and in something that you want to create secondhand. You'll have whole, fresh cards, and you can pick and choose what was important to you. When it's confetti, it's really difficult to start putting all those pieces back together in order to get a card full enough to include back into your old home again or your new home. And that was really the philosophy that I took, just putting all this stuff away. I did that with my marriage. We just took everything down one card at a time and put it away in a box, knowing that some of these aspects of our marriage, they weren't painful. There was genuine love. There was connection in our relationship. Our family did have happy experiences and spiritual experiences. And there were times where we were very, very close. And I didn't want to sacrifice those memories. I didn't need to sacrifice those foundational principles of what we had built. So I did the very same method with the church. I had to do the very same method with my family, had to do the very same, recreate the same method with my work and with my friends. It's just everywhere I went, I was taking down the parts of the house that was me behind a curtain and the things that were false or pretend or created. And that was the very best thing that. That I could have done in order to get into a much healthier space. Mormonism is like that big oak tree that sits out in your front yard. When you pull that oak tree out, it leaves an enormous hole in the yard and dirt and dust and debris in the neighborhood's trash. And sometimes a child or two could get lost in that rubble and in that mess. And the. The view from your window is just this pit of destruction. It was important for me to pull that tree out completely and then start refilling that hole with positive things. Things that brought me joy, things that would challenge me, things that I could devote my time to. I had to replace Mormonism with something else. There were aspects of my life, like tithing, that were still somewhat important to me. Not that I wanted to continue giving to the church, but what about my resources to other projects or to other things that I believed in? I was spending hours as a young men's president. I was spending hours and hours and hours every week in activities, and then Sunday in my church calling and then also teaching. I needed to replace all that time that I had spent with the youth into something else. So those were all voids in my front yard that I had to start replacing. And the healthy part of that was I was replacing it not with dirt and debris and old pallets and garbage, but I was replacing it with things that were bringing me an opportunity at. At growing and becoming a better person. And that was really a foundation for the first time that I was finally comfortable in building on. I finally comfortable in. In making some. Some positive steps forward in.

John Dehlin [01:41:53] So. So you knew. So it sounds like kind of the divorce coincided with your decision to leave the church. For the most part, more or less, yeah.

Kyle Ashworth [01:42:06] I was. I was on my way out before we announced the divorce, but it was a trigger. It was essentially was the house cleaning process. It was. If I'm going to make monumental changes in my life today, I need to analyze everything in my life. The. The Marie Kondo experience. Like, I have to look at everything and say, does this bring me joy? And if it doesn't, I had to toss it. And I went through so much of. Of my life and. And tried to figure out what brought me joy, what. What was going to bring me ultimate happiness. And some of it I had to toss. Some of it I had to just set off to the side in that ambiguity, that ambiguous moment that I'm not sure what I could do with this, but at the same time had to recognize that I couldn't be a hoarder. I couldn't have all this stuff laying around without order. And that was important to me.

John Dehlin [01:42:57] All right, so did you. I don't know if you want to talk about this, but I guess the question that comes to mind is I'm wondering if you resigned or if you Remain a member, or if you're ever worried about being excommunicated once you started dating, you know.

Kyle Ashworth [01:43:11] No, I resigned.

John Dehlin [01:43:13] Okay.

Kyle Ashworth [01:43:14] I just used Whitmormon. It was really quick and easy. Funny story about the resignation. I told Jamie that I did resign, and she had moved into a new ward. And months, months later, months after she had moved into this new ward, her records were moved over into there. I was gone, so I had no records. She gets a call from her. Her ward clerk, who said that her records had just been updated, and she's like, what do you mean they've been updated? Well, she opens up her LDS tools, and after I had resigned, I was now head of household in her home in a completely different stake in a completely different ward, and I was, for some reason, somehow head of household in her family with a different record number. So I don't know what happened internally within the church, but just made another request to have them figure it out, and they indeed said, I am for sure gone. So in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. I have officially resigned from the church, maybe twice.

John Dehlin [01:44:20] Okay, well, so the story with you and Jamie, you know, two homes, one family, is so beautiful. Leaving the church makes all the sense in the world. And I know we're going to have to have you back to talk more, but what. What should we talk about today to conclude part two? And then I think there's going to be a part three where maybe we talk more about the church itself and its status with the LGBT community. But I also really want to talk about on the Record and go through that as its own episode, because it's. It's not just relevant to the LGBTQ discussion, but it strikes to the core of prophetic fallibility and the frank. Frankly, not just lack of inspiration on the part of church leaders, but the devastating and often deadly consequences of the church's irresponsible claims of. Of communication with God and then how that plays out in the lives of the membership. But let's. For today, that's just kind of a. A teaser for what's to come. But. But what else do you want to share about your story today? Because there's so much. There's. There's you rebuilding your life after losing your Mormon faith. There's you learning to date as a gay man. There's you maybe even. Maybe even falling in love and finding what. What love can really feel like when you're loving with someone you can love with your spirit, you know, and your heart and your body. And your soul. You know, there's that. There's parenting, you know, as a gay single dad, and then there's all the activism work that you've done. Like, that's heroic to me, and I'd want to spend multiple hours just on that. So I, you know, I know that we have finite time. So what parts do you want to conclude with today?

Kyle Ashworth [01:46:23] I think. I think the important part, just to kind of wrap up this part of the story, is that this familiar territory, there are those who will be listening to this episode who are closeted themselves in that same place that I was at three, five years ago, where you don't know what's happening. All that you want to do is be happy, and you want to find connection. You want to find your herd, you want to just be happy that's obtainable. If there's anything that I could say, it's that you're not alone and that you're not broken and that there are opportunities for you ahead. I just been told one talk after the next one meeting with a bishop after the next one personal interview with myself time and time again, that I could be something that I wasn't fearing that thing that I was running from. And the ultimate reality was that I wasn't broken. There was nothing for me to be fit. There was nothing within me that was necessary to change. And we have to get out of that mindset that the only way to find happiness is by looking like everyone else. We have to get out of these situations where groups of religious authority tell us, you have to love like I do or look like I do or dress like I do in order to be favored of God. If there is a God. And if all of this is centered around the importance of family, it strikes me as wildly inconvenient that the church wants to destroy the family and my ability to create a family and to have loving relationships with my children and with my spouse, even though he is of the same gender as myself. In exchange for what? If Mormonism's great message is in its power of raising happy, healthy, vibrant families in this world, then why destroy mine? Because it is all of those things. It is happy, it is healthy, it is vibrant, it is not nuclear, and it is not traditional. And if we want to talk about things being unnatural, that my relationship with my partner is unnatural, then so is walking on water. That's unnatural also, but it doesn't make it wrong. We need to reach into the hearts of the Latter Day Saint leaders and share with them what I know and what you Know that the people impacted by this topic are wonderful, beautiful, gifted, talented human beings with talents and opportunities to embedder this world far beyond our comprehension. I think of all of the greats, the Alan Turnings, the people who are the Harvey Milks, the people who have made substantial contributions to our society, who gained great notoriety for what they were able to do, not who they are. Think of all the people that we've pushed into closets. Think of all the people that we've disregarded, that we fail to mention or talk about or excommunicate or label as apostates. Think of what we're able to do with their talents in this world. Had we not shunned them and had we not pushed them into the depths of darkness because they don't look, act or talk or dress the way we do. Mormonism is losing its very greatest and its finest people. For what? To save face? To pretend like their authority is greater than that of the kings of the earth? To avoid someone questioning their authority? There are real people behind this topic and we need to band together as Latter Day Saints, as post members, as progressive Mormons, and support humanity for who and what we are. We each have an intrinsic and beautiful opportunity to help other people. And we lose sight of those abilities by pushing people to the margins and by shifting them out of our focus because they don't respond the way we want them to respond. Allow them to respond with the very gifts that they were created to respond with. I wish I would have learned that as a 12 year old. I wish I would have known that someone out there would have told me or had had a platform or an ability to. To reach out and say, you can do that, you're okay the way you are. You aren't broken. There really are opportunities out there for you. People will love you, people will accept you for who you are. That's powerful. And I don't know how we get there other I don't know that a religious institution is going to get there for us parents. If you have gay children, if you're waiting for your church to reach out and ask them how their dating life is going, who is special in their world, what brings them joy. Your church isn't going to ask those questions. You have to. As a community, we have to reach into the marginalized and no longer have a margin at all. We have to bring them in instead of. It's interesting especially when we discuss religion and these topics of being and succoring our people. To succor means to run to how often In Mormonism, when we see somebody in pain or in strife or in their infirmities, to succor means to run to them. When it comes to this topic, we run away from these people. It's time to start succoring. It's time to run to the LGBTQ community and embrace them. I don't know how to get there. I just know that I'm much closer today than I was four years ago when I started navigating this journey for the very first time. I really look forward to what the next four years will look like. And there are, there are processes in place and there are things that I've, I tried to create and advocacy channels that I've tried to, to, to assemble to help me achieve this vision. But it's going to take a lot more than just a John Dehlin and a Kyle Ashworth in this space. It's going to take much more than a North Star or an affirmation. And it's going to take much more than just the fringe members who have been isolated from their faith traditions and ostracized from their communities. It will take a lot of us, and it'll take us all getting on the same page and standing up for what we know is important in our lives. And, and what we know is that humans are important and, and to love another person is to see the face of God. And if we're afraid of looking them in the eyes and seeing their faces, then what is God all about? Why do we need a God if we're, if we're too afraid to approach those that we have today to work with? We got a lot of work to do.

John Dehlin [01:54:24] It's kind of a topsy turvy, upside down world. When a church named after Jesus Christ is telling you you're broken, you're defective, and two former members who are deemed apostates are telling you you're perfect and you're whole just as you are. That's kind of a crazy, mixed up, topsy turvy world, isn't it?

Kyle Ashworth [01:54:55] But that's the world we live in. No, I don't disagree that that's not one of the most insane aspects of this religion. It's mind boggling and we have a whole nother episode in discussing just motives and why the church would do what it's doing and does it want to make itself look, act, feel, and operate in a very specific way. And by pushing out the Johns and the Kyles and the marginalized among us, that helps them achieve that. I don't know, probable, but I don't know. But it is mind boggling that a church that is so focused on the family has done so much to destroy the family.

John Dehlin [01:55:49] So many families.

Kyle Ashworth [01:55:50] So many families.

Finding Love and Happiness After Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:55:51] Just to end on two happy notes for today. Do you want to tell listeners, especially the gay listeners or the LGBTQ listeners that might be wondering if happiness is even possible? Do you want to tell them where you are now in your life just in terms of relationships, or do you want to not talk about that now? That's one. And then I would just want to hear you talk about latter gay stories, why you do it, what it is and what difference you feel like it's been able to make.

Kyle Ashworth [01:56:21] Sure. So I am in a relationship. I've been dating a guy for almost two years now who has changed our whole world.

John Dehlin [01:56:34] What was it like to find love? Contrasting that with what it was like for both you and Jamie?

Kyle Ashworth [01:56:42] Yeah. So I had a similar text to Jamie after kissing a guy for the very first time. It was like fireworks. It was like just different. And all of those, what was remaining of that internalized homophobia just melted into perfect insignificance. It meant nothing anymore because I finally had found a connection. And it wasn't even a guy that I long term dated. It was just a kiss. And it was amazing that just kissing a guy for the very first time, what that did. And that's hard to explain because for a traditional straight person, it's one thing to have a really powerful kiss, but it's like the best tres leches you've ever had in your whole life that you want to rant and rave about until everybody at every future party about that one time that you had the most amazing dessert because you didn't know what life was like before having that particular dessert because it was so unexpected and so life changing. That's what my first kiss was like. And then you couple that together in a relationship where things are consistent and cooperative and symbiotic. It's amazing.

John Dehlin [01:58:04] And you can love with your full might, mind, strength, heart, soul. You can love them with your body. You can love them with everything, not just parts of you.

Kyle Ashworth [01:58:14] Yeah. When we talk about, in terms of my relationship divorcing because we wanted to give each other the opportunity to love and be loved. That's it. I am able to offer myself completely. No reservations, nothing hidden. It's all of me. You get everything. Now you can say you knew I was a rattlesnake before you picked me up. If I bite you at the end of the hill, that's your fault. But you, you knew what you got. And there's beauty in that, that, that level of, of open authenticity is so beautiful. So I am dating as a result of. And that really my relationship came. I had, I've had a few relationships. Nothing like this one, like this, this one was different. And I wrote an article or an article was written about me. I took my kids to New York City a couple years ago in 2018, right before the kind of, before the pandemic. I just decided to pick up the kids and we went to New York together and just kind of gallivanted and there's a publication called Gays with Gays with Kids. Gw okay, yeah, Gays with Kids that just kind of highlight non traditional families. Usually gay men with children and they're based out of New York. They picked up the story somewhere and kind of ran with it. Just this idea that here was this Mormon dad, post Mormon dad and four kids enjoying the New York's offerings. So they wrote about that article and Jay, my partner from Minnesota comes across this article and decides that he wants to get to know this guy who that they wrote about. And so he Instagram stalks me, then Facebook stalks me and then goes everywhere he can go to try to get in contact with me and continues to send me messages and short story long, we finally make contact. He decides he's coming out to Utah for some training. After a few months of talking back and forth and I having zero interest in dating long distance, but also in this space where I've been working with latter gay stories and in the advocacy space, I get messages from people all the time and sometimes it takes a lot of energy to respond to the many messages that you get. And so I just kind of bundled him in the pile of messages, the quick salutations, the hellos, highs, great, wonderful day, those. Well then he offers to he was coming to Utah, asked me if I would go out to dinner with him. He pretty much stands me up. We were supposed to meet at a certain time and like two and a half or three hours later he finally shows up. But me without anything going on and very boring in my life. I stayed there waiting for him the whole time and I'm glad I did because as soon as I saw him there were some fireworks again. He's just one of these guys that I would have never growing up wherever when I decided what I think the most probable partner would look like would be. He's probably everything opposite of all those things. But just instantly when I met him There was something different about it, about him. And so we went to dinner and then the next day we went to dinner, spent the day together again, and then he flew back to Minnesota and we haven't stopped talking ever since. And now we live together and things are infinitely different and just wildly better. In terms of my relationship with my ex wife and kids, I think she kind of feels like she has two ex husbands, Jay and I, because she's now remarried and our family still do all kinds of things together. We were just together. I mean, we're pretty much constantly every other week together and there's a deep friendship. She and he both share the same profession in the medical world, so they have that common bond together. We are in a really good spot. We're in a place that I never ever thought I could ever be in. I'm fulfilled, she's fulfilled. We have a really healthy relationship. Our kids are thriving in this space because they have three, essentially three dads who are looking out for them. And our family is pretty girl heavy. We have one boy and three girls. So it's just a good opportunity for us to love and be loved as a family unit. Now, in terms of the Latter Gay Stories podcast, not only has we talked about this in the first episode, how I got the Latter Gay Stories podcast, it was originally the Gay Mormon Stories podcast that was here with the Open Stories foundation and a podcast that you started in 2012. I never could see myself getting into the public space and discussing these topics. This is scary territory. And there comes with this a level of vulnerability that unless you're on this side of the microphone or this side of the camera, you don't understand those levels of vulnerability. And everything in your world is also put on public display. And every decision that you make or public comment that you produce is easily scrutinized. And there's always going to be people who will side with you and side against you on particular topics. So it's really interesting space to advocate for the marginalized. But there was a necessity to show again this, this message that I brought up over and over again that you're not broken, you're not alone, and that your best days are ahead. I needed, I just think back again to that 12 year old kid who sat in an old rusty car. Where were the examples? If I would have seen someone out there who was having a. A relationship that was thriving in its nuance, thriving in its difference, knowing that there were two men raising a family of children happily and that they both had great jobs and they were loved in their community and their neighbors actually brought them zucchini in the summer springtime. If I would have known a relationship like that could have existed, where would I be today? I would be in a much different position. And so I want to use the podcast and have used the podcast as a vehicle to help share stories of the LGBTQ community. I want to share those stories of normalcy. I want to do the podcast not only just to support the LGBTQ community, but I want the heterosexual, cisgendered, allied community, allied and non allied community to also see what they're missing out on and to see that there are examples and that there are positive examples. I also want to counteract the messaging that comes from religious tradition that says that there are no spiritual experiences on this side of the aisle, that this is a life void of happiness. That is absolutely not the case. I would love to show you a photo of my family and let you see how happy they are because their dad and their mom are thriving in their individual situations. Though my children have two dads in this relationship or two men who are leading this family doesn't mean that they don't have a mother. Also, they have the best of all these worlds. They still have a father, they still have a mother, and they have two bonus fathers who are also taking care of this family.

Latter Gay Stories Podcast and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [02:06:12] That's a lot of fathers.

Kyle Ashworth [02:06:13] It's a lot of fathers. And for a religion that says that every child should have a mother and a father, I say that's great. Every child should have a mother and father. And it's even better to have another dad and another dad and a few more thrown in.

John Dehlin [02:06:28] Every kid should have a mother and a father and a few more thrown in.

Kyle Ashworth [02:06:31] There you go. And should those situations not provide that exact dynamic, then that's why we have allyships, and that's why we have family, and that's why we have community. I absolutely believe in rearing a strong and healthy and vibrant family that thrives. And I really want to use my voice while I have it and the opportunities, the platform that I have to continue amplifying the experiences of the LGBTQ community. And I also want to continue highlighting those dark and non or unlit areas of Mormonism that led me and so many others into those darkest corners. I want to shine light in there and hopefully someone down the road in leadership. And it may not have to be in general leadership, but I know it's happening locally. They start to realize that when that light shines, when you know better, you do better. And when we get to know the real lived experiences, the people behind this topic, we finally make some changes. That is the mission of the podcast and that's what I want to do.

John Dehlin [02:07:38] And based on the. You've been doing it for how long now?

Kyle Ashworth [02:07:42] Two and a half years.

John Dehlin [02:07:43] Two and a half years. And based on the feedback you've received so far, do you feel like it's started to achieve its purpose or its goal? Are you getting good feedback?

Kyle Ashworth [02:07:53] Getting excellent feedback. And our episodes, I mean some of our episodes will gain 20,000 views or listens. I don't know. I don't know. 20,000 gay Mormons. I don't know. Twenty thousand gay Mormons and their families and their friends. I don't know that many people who is ingesting this content. I think this topic, it's either I'm broadcasting to some village that's just picking it up for fun or this topic impacts more people than we're giving credit to. And I think that's also, that's also a message that the church needs to understand as well that you have isolated such a large segment of your population that is thirsty and desperate for connection. But our. I don't push YouTube as much. I need to start pushing YouTube even though all the episodes do have video and audio. So we have an audio podcast episode, but a video just like this episode is on the video portion of it. But we mainly run those through Facebook. But I have I think 7,800 people who follow the or like the podcast and another 8,000 who follow it. So I'm in a good base of around 15 or 16,000 people. Just on our Facebook side of it, the audio podcast side of it. We, I mean we do really, really well with the people who are downloading our content in audio version and then the website. The website is full of resources that give people an opportunity to hold fifth Sunday firesides or LGBTQ discussions around the kitchen table about introducing this topic to their kids in a very Mormon style way. I've tried to reach into the Mormon world as kindly as possible in order to help them understand this topic. Pre pandemic I taught a class called what to expect when you weren't expecting homosexuality, which essentially was a coming out class or a pre parental plan for when your child does come out. And I'm always heartened by the parents who show up in those spaces who say we don't have a gay kid that we know of. But we're here to try to understand this a little better because we had and it's Usually a niece or a friend or a neighbor or someone who come out, and because of that, they're hedging their bets. And I appreciate Latter Day Saints in that space. I appreciate allies in that space who. Who don't have gay kids at all who have become some of my greatest friends because they reached into the space. I know some good friends of mine. He's a former bishop. She is salt of the earth.

John Dehlin [02:10:24] I've met these people.

Kyle Ashworth [02:10:25] They have. Yes, they have no gay children that they know of. That they know of. But they do not hesitate to call up and say, when do you and Jay want to go out on a double date? Let's go to dinner. And it's us and multiple other couples. When they asked that the very first time, I almost melted. Like, why should I break down in, like, an emotional ball of sadness, happiness, when a straight couple is willing to go out in public with me with my boyfriend and be okay with going to dinner? Especially when that straight couple is a bishop. I mean, think of what you can do in the lives of the LGBTQ community where when you make something as simple as dinner a priority, as a straight, cisgendered person, those are the types of advocacy that I want to see more of. I care less about loud, boisterous rallies and more about the individual experience and helping you as a listener and myself as a person adjacent to this community in creating personal connection. Because I know when you create that personal connection with someone, you will do better. And I need more people to do better. We all need more people to do better.

John Dehlin [02:11:48] That might be a great place to end today, but I don't want that to be the end of our conversations. Is that okay?

Kyle Ashworth [02:11:54] I'm game for another round.

John Dehlin [02:11:55] Yeah, we'll do another round. We'll come back. We'll come back for part three with Kyle. We'll talk about the church and. And the LGBTQ experience in the church's policies today. Maybe a little bit. And then we'll also talk about what is a very important document to me. It's. It's. I don't. I mean, I don't want to be hyperbolic, but the CES letter is a super important PDF. I think this on the Record PDF is an equally important document to the church and to the lives of tens of thousands, if not more people. So you got to check out on the record, regardless of how you feel about this issue. And we got to come back and do an episode or two just on that document.

Kyle Ashworth [02:12:45] Yeah. And the easiest way to find on the record, because I think it would be great for people to, especially if we're going to do an episode they can digest and jump into that ahead of time. But lattergay stories.org record lattergay stories.org record you can also just google it. If you do on the record LGBTQ or on the record lds, it'll be. It's the first thing that pops up. It's been downloaded thousands and thousands, 20 something thousand, almost 21,000 times. So it's got enough traction there that people are eating it up.

John Dehlin [02:13:24] So that's lattergay stories laddergaystories.org record. Right? All right.

Kyle Ashworth [02:13:32] And then scroll to the very bottom and you can download it.

John Dehlin [02:13:35] Beautiful.

Kyle Ashworth [02:13:36] And the cool part about the PDF is that it is interactive so there are links within the PDF. I created it because the typical run of the mill Latter Day Saint says oh well, you may quote the church but you take it out of context and you only take this certain specific part of it and twist it to make it sound. So I took each of these quotes that are not. I don't add opinion to them. The quotes are just the quotes. They are what the church has put on the record regarding this messaging. And then I add the source link to it too. So you can click on the source link and go right to the original document and read what Heber J. Grant or David O. McKay or Spencer Kimball or George Q. Cannon or Joseph Smith or whoever said it. And the beauty of technology is some of this stuff is I just updated it. What you're seeing is really fresh based on some of the very latest Joseph Smith papers that were just released. Specifically making some bold claims that perhaps even Joseph Smith had some run ins with sexuality himself. Bisexuality, in addition to other members of the. At that point, let's see, John Bennett was patriarch.

John Dehlin [02:14:52] I thought he was co president of the church.

Kyle Ashworth [02:14:54] He was also the Major General of the Nauvoo Legion. Just a number of fascinating articles that are now coming out due to the Joseph Smith papers that paint a very queer history among Latter Day Saints. And so what is on the record is on the record. So lettergay stories.org backslash record.

John Dehlin [02:15:13] Yeah. And just to be clear, what we talked about at lunch is that you have decent evidence to support the idea and the D. Michael Quinn, apparently who the late D. Michael Quinn, who communicated with you, there is evidence to suggest that Joseph Smith was engaged in some gay sexual activity himself, Is that what you're saying?

Kyle Ashworth [02:15:36] Correct. And so credible information. Credible information. We're talking about the times and seasons which is church production. And this is now printed in the Joseph Smith Papers. There is a link there that you can click on that you can read from the Joseph Smith Papers the account of that Nauvoo meeting where Joseph is looking for people to side on him, to prove that he has been savory and above board with his relationships with both men and women. And a number of people, including an apostle of his very own church, says, I can't agree with you, Joseph, based on what I know. Yeah, that's pretty interesting evidence. And again, the purpose of the on the record isn't to litigate or to debate. It's just to put the quotes on the record and the experiences on the record and allow the reader to take that journey into this space. And I think that's the beauty and the fascination of church history is. Is dissecting this and really jumping down this rabbit hole and seeing where it takes you.

John Dehlin [02:16:35] Beautiful. Beautiful. All right, well, Kyle Ashworth, you did not disappoint. I've been wanting to interview you for forever or at least several years, and it's been so lovely to have you today. Thank you for coming to the studios. Thanks for sharing your story and. And then most importantly, thanks for the work you do to save lives and to save families with latter Gay Stories. And I hope you. I wish you only continued success and prosperity with your own personal life, in your relationships with your kids, with your. With your one family, two households, and with your advocacy and your business, everything. May you live long and prosper, Kyle Ashworth.

Kyle Ashworth [02:17:26] Thank you, John. And I do have to give you a little praise as well. Honestly, without your advocacy in this space, without your TED Talk and your ability to reach into the LGBTQ community and then find and create a desire to reach into this space and create the Gay Mormon Stories podcast, I wouldn't have connected with that. In turn, I wouldn't have connected with you. I would not have had the opportunity to take over the latter Gay Stories podcast and. And create what we have created. That machine has so much of your signature all over it, and I want to thank you for that. And I hope on behalf of my thousands of listeners as well, I hope that they recognize your important work in this space on their behalf.

John Dehlin [02:18:09] Thank you. It's sacred work.

Kyle Ashworth [02:18:13] It is.

John Dehlin [02:18:14] I'm having so much fun. Like, I've never enjoyed my life more than at age 51 right now. I just. I'm loving life. Are you? Are you loving life? A little bit.

Kyle Ashworth [02:18:22] It all 38 and a half years of it.

John Dehlin [02:18:24] You're so young. You're but a pup. You're but a pup, Kyle.

Kyle Ashworth [02:18:29] I'm not much to look at, but I'm all the Lord has.

John Dehlin [02:18:33] Well, we should. We should end with that. Thanks, Kyle Ashworth. All the best. Keep in touch, and we'll bring you back on super soon.

Kyle Ashworth [02:18:40] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:18:41] And happy Pride, Utah. Pride Week and Pride Month. Love an LGBTQ person. Or if you're an LGBTQ person, love yourself. And let's paint this world in a big, beautiful, bright rainbow this week and month and year.

Kyle Ashworth [02:19:01] All in favor, say Aye.

John Dehlin [02:19:02] Any opposed?

Kyle Ashworth [02:19:04] I don't see anybody.

John Dehlin [02:19:05] Okay, thanks, everybody. See you guys soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.