Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 733

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Ashley [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom Lead thou me on.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John de Lind. It's April 21, 2017, and today we're going to be covering a really important topic. The topic is what happens when religions or religious people praise abusers in front of their victims. And today we're gonna have joining us for the first time on Mormon Stories, Ashley. And you're just going by your first name, but Ashley, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Ashley [00:01:12] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] It's good to have you. And thanks for talking about something so difficult and challenging.

Ashley [00:01:19] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] So before we actually dive in, I think it's important to provide a tiny bit of context for me, this interview doesn't sort of come in a vacuum. There was an event that happened last week or the week before here in Utah that was very unsettling to many, and I'll just describe it really quickly. So a week or two ago, In April of 2017, a man named Keith Robert Vallejo, who is a Mormon bishop, was convicted of 10 counts of forcible sexual abuse and one count of object rape involving two women who were both staying in his home at the time of the rape and abuse. So he was eventually tried in a court of law, and he was convicted of, again, 10 counts of forcible sexual abuse and one count of object rape. Now, during his sentencing hearing in Provo, Utah, a couple weeks ago, 4th District Judge Thomas Lowe was noticeably moved and shaken by the verdict that he was about to issue. And what was really sort of ironic and disturbing about his verdict is that during this verdict, he actually praised Vallejo as an extraordinarily good man, and he did it while the victims were in the room. And a little bit more of a wrinkle to this story is that this man, Judge Thomas Lowe, is currently a Mormon bishop of the Valley Hills First Ward, the Heber City, Utah North Stake. And so here we have a current Mormon bishop praising a former Mormon bishop as an extraordinarily Good man in front of the victims. And, of course, people who are sensitive to the victims of rape were outraged by the statement. And so to illustrate this, what I wanted to do was to actually, as part of the interview, share the audio from the. From the presentation. And in the audio, I'm actually going to try and play it over the screen and have the listeners listen, and listen not only to the words he used, but to how long the pauses are where he's moved. And in none of this time does he express sensitivity to the victims. So I'm going to share the screen now, and I'm going to play the audio from the sentencing. Here goes.

Judge Thomas Lowe [00:04:19] This sentencing hearing has been teed up, maybe unintentionally so, as Mr. Vallejo should be accorded probation because he's innocent. Now, if the court were to grant that request, it would give its stamp of approval to that position that the court agrees. I want to make it clear that the court agrees with the verdict. I think the jury got it right. The court has no doubt that Mr. Vallejo is an extraordinarily good man, and the letters written on his behalf were extraordinarily moving. The great men, Sometimes things. That being the case, the court will. The court will impose one to 15 years incomplete prison on each of the second degree felonies and five years to life on the first degree felony. Order those run concurrent with each other and allow credit for the time served thus far and require that time be sent to serve forthwith.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] Okay, so let me turn that off. It auto plays another segment right after. Okay, so, Ashley, did you hear about this case from where you live when it, when it happened?

Ashley [00:06:42] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] And what were your reactions when you heard not only about Judge Lowe's comments, but when you. When you actually heard his comments, what were your reactions?

Ashley [00:06:58] Well, honestly, I assumed that the judge was lds, and I think that, you know, it's nothing that I was a stranger to. I've seen this a few times now, and so it's incredibly unfortunate, it's sad, it's wrong, but in the same breath, it's something that we're accustomed to seeing. And so.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] So you're kind of used to it. Okay, well, let me introduce your story a little bit so the listeners know why, why you're kind of wanting to talk about this. So, you know, Ashley's got a lot to her story in and of itself, and I've written a little bit about this. Ashley's a convert to the Mormon Church, and I'm going to be previewing her story before we actually tell it she's a convert to the Mormon Church. She was temple married. That marriage ended in divorce. She was inappropriately excommunicated from the church for a crazy reason, and I'm not going to divulge it, but a crazy, inappropriate reason. She was excommunicated. Bishop Mark McConkie of Colorado Springs found out about the inappropriate excommunication, and she was ultimately rebaptized and brought back into the church. She ended up remarrying a Mormon, and they were sealed back in the church. But then in her current ward, she learned that three successive bishops were excommunicated. So three bishops in a row were excommunicated, and one of them was excommunicated for rape or sexual abuse. And she stumbled into that because of some callings she had. And she became really deeply disturbed when she learned the extent to which the ward and stake had gone to protect the former bishop, to honor him and to support him at the expense of the victims who also remained in the ward, or at least one did. It caused a ton of damage and problems in the ward. And this is the experience that Ashley had that she wanted to share. Is that a fair. And then, of course, that was a part of her unraveling in terms of her crisis of faith, which strangely has happened in the past month. So if you ask Ashley just a month ago, she was a fully orthodox, fully believing Mormon. And this all sort of is unraveled within the space of a month now. How much of that did I get right, Ashley?

Ashley [00:09:51] Pretty good.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Okay. Anything you want to correct there?

Ashley [00:09:55] No, that's pretty good.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] Okay. So that's going to be kind of the topic for today. And so we're doing this on Facebook Live, and so we're welcoming listeners to comment and provide their own experiences. So specifically, if listeners have had experiences in their Mormon wards or stakes of ward members or stake members or church leaders covering up for or honoring or praising abusers at the expense of the abused, then we want you to go ahead and hear your stories or at least type them in and we can share them. Feel free to not give sort of identifying information for victims or abusers. We're not here to attack people. We're here to kind of talk about systems and culture. And so that's why we're not. We're not giving Ashley's last name, not because she doesn't want to use her name, but because we don't want this to necessarily harm any individuals or even cause problems in her current ward or stake. We more just Want to address the topics. So with that, Ashley, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Guest Introduction and Background

Ashley [00:11:20] Thank you. Thanks for having me. And I'm sorry if I. Hopefully I don't let a brother slip. I'm still in that awkward phase where I don't know how to refer to anyone. I'm like, hey, friend.

John Dehlin [00:11:35] You mean call me Brother Dehlin? Yeah, you can call me Brother Dehlin. That's okay. I don't mind.

Ashley [00:11:44] Ask my friend.

John Dehlin [00:11:46] That's good. That's good. Okay, so, yeah, so let's just go back. Let's start with your story a little bit. Just tell us briefly about your conversion to the church.

Growing Up in an Abusive Home and Converting to the Church

Ashley [00:11:57] Sure. So I grew up in an abusive home as a kid, and I was placed in foster care, and I was adopted by a black military family. They were great. They raised me Southern Baptist. And when I was 17, I started to learn a little bit about the church. And my adopted parents, they said, you know, if you join that church, we're gonna have to kick you out. And so I felt like it was the right thing to do. And, you know, I told them that that was the choice that I was gonna be making. And oddly enough, the next day, my caseworker was on the phone, and he said, you know, I got the strangest phone call today. He said, I got a phone call from a woman that says she is your biological mother, and she's about to go to the temple, and she wants her family all together. And so it turns out that when I was learning about the church, my biological parents had been baptized and were preparing to go to the temple. And so I went and lived with them and took the discussions from the missionaries and joined the church. And prior to joining the church, I was pretty good kid by worldly standards. You know, I made good grades. I played sports, been dating the same boy for a while, and then I joined the church, and I wasn't so good anymore.

John Dehlin [00:13:37] Really?

Ashley [00:13:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] Why? Did joining the church make you kind of act out a little bit?

Ashley [00:13:42] Well, no, I didn't act well. So when I joined the church, typically, being a convert is a good thing, but where I grew up, you know, everyone grows up together. They get married together. And so here is this new convert. And the girls weren't very happy about that. The boys in our ward were coming home from their missions, and, you know, the mothers of these girls had plans on who their daughter were gonna marry. And here's this new convert, and the returned missionaries were like, oh, who is the convert? And so they made sure that everyone knew that I was a convert. And that essentially I was a licked cupcake that had been placed on the shelf. And so I wasn't pure because I was convert. And so I see.

John Dehlin [00:14:37] So it's not that your behavior changed.

Ashley [00:14:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] It's that being in this hyper sexualized, repressed, puritanical culture, you felt devalued. Is that what you're saying?

Ashley [00:14:48] Absolutely. Absolutely. I was called names. The girls are really not very. Not very friendly. But I was convinced that, you know, this was Heavenly Father's church and it was just, it was a small token to pay. And, you know, there was a returned missionary that I had started dating from our ward and we played touch and giggle and we both felt guilty about it, and so we went to our bishop and there was a disciplinary council that was held and they loved, they loved this boy. You know, they had watched him grow up in the ward. And, you know, my dad accompanied me to this disciplinary council and he was told not to take the sacrament for a few weeks, and I was disfellowshipped. And in the meeting and he had been to the temple and, you know, my dad had made reference to that, and he said, you know, she's only been a member for three months and you're gonna disfellowship her. And. But the way the, the way they kind of made me sound was that I was. Was like these young men couldn't control their hormones around me. You know, I was a pretty fit, active 18 year old. And. And they thought that, you know, that, you know, one of the council members, he said, well, maybe if you dress a little bit baggier and maybe if you don't wear so much makeup. And. And so they really started to portray that, you know, that these boys just had no control. And so that was kind of not very fun. But.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] So you were. How old were you at the time?

Ashley [00:16:42] 18.

John Dehlin [00:16:43] And you were being tried in a disciplinary council?

Ashley [00:16:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] And was the boy. Was the boy as well?

Ashley [00:16:50] He was, but he was not disfellowshipped. He had just come home from his mission.

John Dehlin [00:16:56] Okay. And it wasn't for, like sex. It was just for kind of messing around.

Ashley [00:17:02] Touch and giggle.

John Dehlin [00:17:04] That sounds really weird.

Ashley [00:17:06] That's. Well, this is the same stake that we're in now. And so they don't always. Now I know that they don't always handle things the way that they're supposed to, but at the time, you know, these are representatives of Heavenly Father. And so.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] So was this a bishop that was just kind of crazy or what?

Ashley [00:17:26] No, it was an actual disciplinary council

John Dehlin [00:17:30] with Bishop and his counselors.

Ashley [00:17:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] Okay. And it literally said touch and giggle.

Ashley [00:17:38] Like, no, that's my definition.

John Dehlin [00:17:41] Okay. So it was for kind of just normal petting stuff that the kids do when they are dating and making out.

Ashley [00:17:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Okay. But he had certain admission. Okay.

Ashley [00:17:53] Yeah. And, you know, the girls that had given me the hardest time in my ward were the bishop's daughters. They were just a little bit older than me. Um, and so there was just. There was a lot of. There was a lot of problems. And. And, you know, honestly, I just really struggled controlling my hormones. You know, I would. I. We dated for three months, and, you know, then I would be like, oh, this is terrible, because my hormones would kick in. And so there is a lot of praying and fasting. And, you know, I felt a lot of shame because I. I really was convinced that there was something wrong with me, but I couldn't turn off these. These hormones and. Sorry. It was really a hard time. There's a lot of praying, a lot of fasting, and so. But I went with it.

John Dehlin [00:18:48] And the verdict. And the verdict of the disciplinary council was, what?

Ashley [00:18:51] Disfellowship for you?

John Dehlin [00:18:53] For me, but not for him?

Ashley [00:18:56] No.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] Why is that?

Ashley [00:18:58] They loved him. I was. You know, they didn't really know me. I had only been in the ward for three months. You know, they thought I wore too much makeup. They thought my clothes weren't baggy enough. I was too curvy. And these are all things that. That were mentioned in my disciplinary council, you know, essentially, that these boys couldn't control their thoughts when they were around me. So. Good times.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] So you're three months into your membership and you're disfellowshipped, and the boy that you messed around with was totally let free.

Ashley [00:19:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:36] Yeah, I just. I can't even believe it.

Ashley [00:19:38] Well, he had to skip sacrament a few weeks.

John Dehlin [00:19:41] He had to not take the sacrament.

Ashley [00:19:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:44] Oh, my gosh. I'm so sorry.

Ashley [00:19:46] No, it's okay. It was all testimony building.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] That's not even what this. That's not even what this podcast is about. But it's. That's its own podcast.

Ashley [00:19:56] Yeah. So that was okay.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] But that fits because. Yeah, because they're basically. I don't know, in some ways, they're praising one and punishing somebody else. And.

Moving to Utah, Marriage, and Church Discipline

Ashley [00:20:11] Yeah, so I heard about this magical land called Utah from the missionaries and that everyone was Mormon there. And so after I graduated high school, I left to Utah. I was involved in a few relationships.

John Dehlin [00:20:34] How long were you this fellowship for?

Ashley [00:20:37] About. I don't remember. I know. It wasn't very long.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Like a few months.

Ashley [00:20:41] Yeah, it wasn't very long because when I went to byu, it was no longer.

John Dehlin [00:20:45] Okay. So by the time you're. By the time you're in Utah, you're in full standing again.

Ashley [00:20:50] I'm good to go. Okay. Good to make mistakes again.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] Okay.

Ashley [00:20:55] And so I. So I was at BYU and had a few serious relationships and. Which could have progressed fine, but, you know, marriage wasn't on the table. And at that time at byu, you know, everything. Everything that you hear is, you know, stop hanging out. Start dating. Get married, get married, get married. And so I thought, you know, I'm a new convert. I'm learning, and I'm thinking, okay, this is what I have to do. This is my next step. And so I started dating a young man from my BYU ward, and we dated for three months, and then we ended up getting married in the Bountiful temple. And a few months after we were married, I learned about his pornography addiction. And so we went. Don't do this. We went to BYU because we were students, and so we were trying to save money, and so we utilized one of their grad students in the psychology department, and they have this on video, but it was terrible. And, you know, I. We were telling him what's going on in our marriage, and he said, well, maybe he wouldn't struggle with pornography as much if you would help him masturbate. And so I was like, that's it. We're never going back there again. And so we went to a licensed therapist after that, and he was amazing. And, you know, after our first.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] So basically, they're saying it's your job to keep him from looking up porn.

Ashley [00:22:38] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:40] How did that feel?

Ashley [00:22:41] Oh, kind of yuck. You know, even for a convert, you know, I was like, this is not. This is not cool.

John Dehlin [00:22:52] And listen, you may think that people would guess or expect to know why, but I want to hear you just say, if you can, one or two or three of the things that was really for you, harmful or damaging about that message.

Ashley [00:23:07] It was degrading because.

John Dehlin [00:23:09] Why?

Ashley [00:23:11] Because put the blame on me. And, you know, I was living my life in a way where that blame shouldn't have been put on me.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] Right.

Ashley [00:23:22] And so it was. It was degrading.

John Dehlin [00:23:25] Thank you. It's helpful. It's helpful to have you describe that. Okay.

Ashley [00:23:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] So you went to a different therapist?

Ashley [00:23:32] We did. We went to an Les Therap family therapist. He was amazing. And after the first appointment, he said he pulled me in his office. And he said, I just want to let you know, I've been doing this for 30 years. And he said, your husband is in the top three worst cases that I've seen. And he said that he was into some pretty dark pornography. And not, as some of your listeners might be laughing, like dark pornography, not in, like a weird Mormony way, but dark pornography, like inflicting pain on the other person, asphyxiation, choking, and not pleasurable. And so, you know, to know that my husband was having fantasies about choking me wasn't. Didn't really do it for me. And so we kept going to this therapist, and we were married for two years, and we had leadership that said, you know, I think it's probably a good idea that. That you consider a divorce. And so that's what I did. I got a divorce. And I.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] Was this the main reason, or were there lots of reasons?

Ashley [00:24:47] It was. No, no, no. That was the main reason. And he is a good person. He's remarried to a really wonderful. She's really wonderful and sweet. And I think they just had a baby, and we didn't have any children together. And, you know, he just has this pretty. Pretty deep struggle, I guess. And so we got a divorce. And I stayed in Utah and, you know, for about a year. And I was really struggling because I thought that, you know, I had done everything right. I had done everything that the church told me to do. You know, I married a returned missionary, you know, the checklist. And so I really struggled with that. And I was failing all my classes. And so I called my biological parents because they're LDs, and I asked them if I could come home. And my biological dad was already concerned. They knew what was going on. And so I came back home to my home state where I had been baptized. And, you know, about three years had gone by at this time from when I first left, and the girls were still not very nice. They were still nasty. And now I was divorced, and so they had this juicy bone to chew on. And so I had to get in touch with the Stake Institute president to find out where institute met. And the Stake Institute president, what he. That's my now husband. And so that was how we met. And so I tried going to church, and the girls weren't very nice. And so I got in touch with my friends from high school, and, you know, they're calling me from the Great and Space Building, and they were like, just. Just come out. You don't have to do anything. Just. Just come out and have fun with Us. And. And so I went out with them for a weekend and. And I had a few drinks, and that was all that I did. And after that weekend, I told my dad, I said, you know, this isn't. This isn't really the direction that I want to go with my life. And I told him, you know, I'm going to set up a meeting with the bishop. And, you know, my dad is like this bald, biker, tattooed guy. And he said, you know, I'm really concerned about you. And he said, you've been married and divorced, and, you know, you're. You're only, you know, 21. And he said, I've seen a change in you since you have joined the church. And at this point, my dad was inactive, and so I thought. So his. What he said really pierced my heart because that wasn't standard for him. But I thought, oh, he's inactive, you know, what does he know? And so I set up a meeting with my bishop. And this bishop had known me from when I was 18, and he knew about the situation with the returned missionary. And so he had kind of really had his thoughts about me. And so I told him, you know, what had happened, that I had had a few drinks and his demeanor just changed. And he said, you know, you are not going to come back here and do this again. And he said, you've been to the temple. He said, now you're divor. Kind. I kind of felt like, I don't know, just. He wasn't very happy about. He made it sound like the divorce was kind of on me because I was the one that had sought it. It didn't matter what the circumstances were. I was the one that had. I was the one that had sought the divorce.

John Dehlin [00:28:35] And so now, again, I'm sorry, if I'm asking you to. Was this the same bishop who had disfellowshipped you? No, this was a different bishop, but he would have.

Ashley [00:28:45] He was in the ward.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] He would have been there at the time and remembered.

Ashley [00:28:49] Yeah, he remembered everything.

John Dehlin [00:28:51] Your quote, reputation and all that.

Ashley [00:28:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:53] Okay.

Ashley [00:28:54] My harlot ness. Yeah. And so he said, you know, you're not going to come back here and do this again. And he said, I'm going to put excommunication. And so I didn't really think anything because I'm thinking, you know, I deserve this. I made this wrong choice. He's right. I've been to the temple. So this is. This is the consequence for my action. And at this time, I had already started dating my now husband. And you Know, I told him. He. I told him when I came out of the appointment, I said, you know, you don't want to date me. I said. I said, you can have.

Judge Thomas Lowe [00:29:40] Sorry.

Ashley [00:29:41] I told him, you can have someone that you can go to the temple with. And I said, you know, if you want to continue dating me, you can't go to the temple. And I didn't want to hold him back. My husband was very highly thought of in our stake, and everyone loved him. And, you know, at this time, this bishop, he knew that I was dating the Stake Institute president. And so he sent out a letter to all the bishops in the state letting them know about my transgressions when I was 18, letting them know that I was promiscuous and that I was about to be excommunicated. And then he called my. Now my husband's parents and told them, divulged the details from when I was 18 and told them that I was about to be excommunicated. And so they're thinking the worst possible thing about me, you know, who is their son involved with? And so my husband. I told my husband, I said, you know, just date someone else, and this isn't gonna work. And he prayed about it, and he said, let's elope. And I was like, what? That's crazy. And he's like, let's pull a Joe Smith and elope. And we were just.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] So that's true. Joseph and Emma did eloped. That's actually true.

Ashley [00:31:11] And so we did. We eloped and we got married. And, I mean, from day one, we've always just been kind of head over heels for each other. We've been married for 10 years, and we have four kids. And he's just always been my best friend. And everyone was so upset that we had eloped. It caused a huge mess. My parents were supportive, but they were the only ones. And then they held the disciplinary council, the excommunication. And I always hear people after you

John Dehlin [00:31:51] eloped, after you eloped.

Ashley [00:31:52] After we eloped, yeah, but this was already planned. And the bishop told me, he said, you know, if you try to leave to Utah, we're gonna hold this without you. And so I went. And, you know, I always hear of people, like, writing statements and writing letters for their excommunication. But just know that if you are gonna go through that process, they have already decided. They already know what the out is going to be. It's more of, like, a professional courtesy that they let you speak at your excommunication, because they have already they already know what choice they're going to make. And so they did.

John Dehlin [00:32:26] You're telling me.

Ashley [00:32:27] Yeah, I know.

John Dehlin [00:32:29] I've got a little bit of experience with that, too.

Ashley [00:32:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:31] Okay. Sorry, sorry. Keep going.

Ashley [00:32:33] No, no, no, you're good. And so they excommunicated me. And. And then the stake president, he was out on vacation when this happened, and so he was. And he called us in for a meeting. And, you know, I told the stake president, I said, I don't think my. I said, my bishop didn't. You know, he sent out these letters. He called my husband's parents. I said, you know, he broke vows. He shared confidential things that he wasn't supposed to share. And the stake president said, no, he wouldn't do that. And I said, no, he did. Like, he did this. And he looked at me and he slammed his fist on the table, and he said, I know this man. He would not do that. And so this stake president, we later found out, was called to be a general authority. And for me, that was kind of the first crack in my glass or crack in my shelf, because that was the first time that I thought, well, wait a minute. If these general authorities are really receiving divine revelation from Heavenly Father, wouldn't they know that this man wasn't very honest? And so that was kind of what got the wheels turning for me. And so we ended up leaving to Colorado because things were so crazy. And my husband, he served his mission in Colorado Springs, and he kind of had a unique situation that he had served in the same ward for nine months. And so Mark McConkie knew him very well. He was the stake president, and the ward knew him very well. And that was honestly the perfect ward for me to go through this process in. It was a small, little mountain ward in Colorado. And they were incredible, and they loved my husband, and they knew that if he married me, that it was something that he had prayed about and felt good about. And so they did. They just. They loved me. And we got called in by the bishop, and he kind of sat back, and he's like, I just have to tell you, he said, I talked with your bishop, your previous bishop, and. And he said, I looked into this, the expectation, and he said, there's just something not right here. And that was the first time that I had heard that. And so he referred us to the stake president, which was Mark McConkey. And Mark McConkey met with both of us, and he was amazing. And he said. He said, you know, I've looked into this situation. And he said, I talked with your previous bishop, and he said, I put in a call to Salt Lake. And he said, you know, I have to tell you, I don't know how they do things down there, but this isn't how the church operates. And he said. He said, you were. You shouldn't have been excommunicated for this. And so I'm thinking what. You know, that was. That was pretty. That was another crack in my glass because I thought these things were inspired. And he said that he had put a call to Salt Lake, and Salt Lake told him that they couldn't overturn it because it had been handled at a local level. And so he said, you know, we can't overturn this. He said, but I am going to walk you through every step of this process. And he did. He set up an appointment with me once every three months. And he would just ask me how things were going. He would make sure that I was hanging in there. He would give me a blessing, and he would always tell me that less than 10% of members that have been excommunicated return to full fellowship. He would tell me, you were going to be part of that percentage. And so he was amazing. And so I was around.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] What year was this?

Ashley [00:36:22] Oh, so about 2008.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] Okay, so about nine. Nine years ago.

Ashley [00:36:29] 2008. 2008. Yeah. And so I was re. Baptized a year after my excommunication. And then I. We had moved to Utah. My blessings were restored a year after my baptism. And then my husband and I went to the temple to be sealed. And so. So, yeah, that was that. And then.

Reflecting on Blind Trust in Religious Authority

John Dehlin [00:36:55] So let me pause you for a second. Like, what a crazy set of experiences for a convert. You're. You're blamed, you know, you're. You're blamed in unfairly for, you know, for having fun with a boyfriend. You're punished. He's not. You're disfellowshipped. Then later on, you get this awful advice from byu. You marry too quickly.

Ashley [00:37:28] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:37:30] And it ends up ending in divorce. That's sad. Then you come back to your home ward, and for drinking alcohol, you're freaking excommunicated. And then you stay on anyway. And you. What was keeping you committed to the church that whole time these terrible things are happening to you.

Ashley [00:37:52] I believed it. You know, I thought this was. This was the way, you know, this was Heavenly Father's church, and I believed everything. But absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] What was your belief based on? What was your belief based on?

Ashley [00:38:08] Just the church that this, you know, my ceiling to my husband, you know, I had two children. We had two children at that point. And so, you know, the idea of being without the Holy Ghost and being a mother really, really scared me. And so, you know, I loved my husband and, you know, I subscribed to all of those notions of, you know, what's gonna happen to my family, what's gonna happen to my marriage if I'm not re baptized, if I don't make this, you know, make it back, sort of thinking. But looking back, the divorce was. I. That's something I'm incredibly passionate about. Now. I was way too young to get married, but that was byu. Every talk, every fireside, every ward conference, every state conference, we would have general authorities that would tell us, stop hanging out, get married, get married. And so I felt like that inspiration was from Heavenly Father. And, you know, and then after you get married and you're in byu, you know, it's, don't put off having children for finances. Don't put off having children because of education. And we popped our kids out so fast, and two of them have disabilities. And had we not popped our kids out so quickly, we would have been able to catch those disabilities and made an informed decision as to whether or not it would have been good for us to have more children. But we were pregnant with our third by the time we found out that our two oldest children had autism. And we just popped them out so quick because we thought. I mean, that's what we were being told. We thought this was inspiration from Heavenly Father. And so, yeah, I'm incredibly passionate about those things now, and I will not be encouraging our daughters to get married. You know, before I joined the church, I had applications into colleges, and marriage wasn't even something on my radar until I went to byu. And I was convinced that that was what Heavenly Father wanted for me. And so, you know, these men are receiving direct inspiration from Heavenly Father. And so I went along with that, with that counsel.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] One of our listeners, Brian, he asked, is there something in your upbringing that made you so trusting of authority? There's a lot of Mormons who are very trusting of authority. But I guess that's one major thing is you've got these leaders misbehaving all along the way, and yet you're still willing to trust authority. What do you think that was about?

Ashley [00:40:56] Well, the counsel is that these men are men that they, you know, the church is true, the aren't. And so that was always the mentality that I subscribed to, was that Heavenly Father was at the head of the church and Even though I saw mistakes made at a local level all the time, I believed heavenly Father is not going to let something happen that isn't supposed to happen. And I viewed all of these experiences as something that I needed to go through to strengthen my testimony. And you know, you're not yet as job, so I just kept chugging along.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] Did you. When these leaders are behaving badly, was there an extent to which you internalized this as being your problem, your weakness, your inadequacy?

Ashley [00:41:48] Yeah, well, even though I was married, I still carried the weight of, you know, my marriage to my husband. Now it was built on the foundation that everyone thought I was a harlot, that, you know, that I, my husband, you know, we must have dipped into the cookie jar because who would marry me that quickly? You know, they couldn't wrap their head around that we loved each other and that we enjoyed being together. And so my self esteem was just completely. I just have always felt, you know, less than everyone else, that less than the other girls in the church that have been raised because essentially I was a licked cupcake and placed back on the shelf and. And you know, I was going to talk about that later, but I think it was Kristen Bennion. Is that her name? The sex therapist?

John Dehlin [00:42:39] Yep.

Ashley [00:42:40] That podcast was amazing for me. I don't. It had started playing in my feed and she was talking and 14 years I've been a member and 14 years I felt just listening to her for an hour, I felt like a 14 year wait had just been lifted off my shoulders and I didn't feel that guilt anymore. You know, listening to her for one hour, I was able to get that versus being in the church for 14 years. So that was amazing for me. That was the, the best podcast that I could have listened to. I needed to hear that. She's amazing. And I even thought too, I was like, man, if I was an Orem, I would totally utilize her services. But yeah, that was a. That was a big one for me. But yeah, so we.

John Dehlin [00:43:34] So you had terrible self worth and you felt like a dirty, scarred, dirty tramp. Soiled tramp. Okay. I'm so sorry.

Ashley [00:43:43] Absolutely. No, it's okay. Kristen helped.

John Dehlin [00:43:52] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Ashley [00:44:15] When with the wounded heart, anger or malice I draw myself apart searching my soul.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 734

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Ashley [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Lead

Ashley [00:00:43] thou me on the night is dark and I am far we left Utah, and we went to. We were in Missouri for a little bit, and we were in Idaho, and then we moved back to our home state. And, you know, that was another thing that I think is kind of crazy about the church is when we were in Idaho, we didn't really care for our ward, and instead of going to a different congregation, we had to sell our house. You know, what church does that? Who has to sell their house so they can go to another congregation? And so that was an experience that we had in Idaho. So we ended up coming back to our home state, and we thought we knew the craziness in our home stake, but we thought, you know, it's been 10 years. We were sealed in the temple. We have kids. We have a good family. You know, maybe if people just saw that our family is just great, none of that stuff will matter.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] And you'd be near both your parents, right?

Ashley [00:01:47] Yes. Yeah. Well, his family. No, his family moved to Utah, so they were no longer here. And then my biological parents live about four hours from here. And so we moved back into his home ward, and my home ward is about an hour away. We grew up in the same stake, but our wards are an hour apart.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] So he was where he grew up, and you were where he grew up.

Ashley [00:02:07] Yes, we both were.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] Okay, cool.

Ashley [00:02:09] Yeah. And so shortly after we moved in, I was put in the Young Women's Presidency as the second counselor. And that was when things kind of got really crazy. So our ward has always had the reputation that we had three bishops that were excommunicated. Two bishops were for adultery, and the third bishop, I had always thought was for adultery as well. And so when people would make comments about him, I'd be like, oh, don't judge. You know, this is an incredible family. His wife is a saint, and his children are amazing. And so I was always very defensive of that, you know, because adultery, it's not a good thing, but it's also too consenting adults. And so, you know, he made a mistake and his fam. His wife was able to forgive him. And so, you know, good things.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] And having been branded a harlot, I'm sure you were sympathetic to other people.

Ashley [00:03:11] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] Being sex shamed, right?

Ashley [00:03:14] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] Okay, so just to be clear, you move into a wardrobe where three successive bishops were excommunicated?

Ashley [00:03:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:21] Okay.

Ashley [00:03:21] Yeah. All right.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] That's gotta be crazy.

Ashley [00:03:24] Yeah, it was crazy. And the whole stake, they refer to our word as the armpit of the stake. It's like a mini Babylon. There's not a lot of gospel found here. It's about your boat. Do you own a one engine boat or a two engine boat? How big is your house? What's your title in the church? How much money do you make? That's kind of how things go here. And so not a lot about the Savior or the gospel, but it was okay because we were home. So we were, you know, happy to be home. But so I got put in the young women's presidency. And so there are two families in our ward. So there is the bishop that was excommunicated, and we can call him Bishop Young. And then there is the family that was involved in this situation. And I'll call them the Smiths. So I have my first presidency meeting, and I'm learning about the different girls because I'm.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] This is how long ago? This is how long ago?

Ashley [00:04:33] About a month ago. A little.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] Okay, so now we're. We're up to a few months ago now?

Ashley [00:04:39] Yeah. Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:41] Okay.

Ashley [00:04:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] And you're new. Are you new to this ward?

Ashley [00:04:45] Yes. I've never been in this ward. I'm familiar with it, but I've never been in it.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] Okay, so you just moved back to this area?

Ashley [00:04:52] It's my husband's home ward, not mine.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] A few months ago?

Ashley [00:04:55] Well, yeah, about seven months ago, we moved in here from.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] From out of state?

Ashley [00:05:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] Okay, so. Wow, I didn't realize that. So seven months ago, you move back to your home state, into this area, into this wardrobe where three successive bishops have been excommunicated. You're called in the Young Women's. Okay, seven months ago. What happens?

A Bishop's Abuse and the Ward's Adoration

Ashley [00:05:19] All right, so I had my first presidency meeting, and we're going over all the girls and we have to learn everyone's story. And I have a girl on my list. Her last name is Smith, and so she is from this family.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] And that's. That's a fake name.

Ashley [00:05:38] Smith. Yeah. And she's 12. Okay, so she's you know, essentially, this bishop, he committed adultery 18 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] Bishop Young.

Ashley [00:05:49] Bishop Young, 18 years ago committed adultery,

John Dehlin [00:05:53] or so you thought. Or so you thought.

Ashley [00:05:55] Yes, so I thought. And so I asked about her. I said, oh, I know this family. You know, what. What are we doing to reach out to her and the secretary in the presidency? She reached over my arm, and she's very close with Bishop Young and his family. And she reached over my arm, and she crossed off her name, and she said, oh, you know, she's a Smith. You don't really. You don't really have to worry about the Smiths. And I was like, what? And she said, well, they don't really understand the atonement. And I was like, oh, okay. And I'm still thinking adultery, you know, and so. Because the rumor is that he had an affair with a member of the Smith family. And so I'm thinking, I don't really agree with that. And the president's like, yeah, you know, we've made contact with them, and, you know, you just have to move on. And I said, yeah, but are we moving on? Because they asked us not to bother them or for some other reason? And they said, well, you know, they don't come to church because of the whole situation with the Youngs. I still don't know what's going on, and I don't. I feel like I can press further, but at this time, I'm incredibly devout lds, and so when I see her cross this Nate Motem off, I'm thinking as this being a soul that is being crossed off, and so my heart is just broken. And I come home from that meeting, and I tell my husband, I'm just in tears, and I'm like, they crossed her name off. She wasn't even alive when this was going on. And I was just so heartbroken over this. And so my husband told me, he said, reach out to the family and ask so and so what you can do for her relative. And so I said, okay, that's a good idea. And I've already made it known that I am not okay with crossing this name off. And so the secretary took that information, and she shared it with a few people. And so this is working its way around the ward that I am supporting this family, that I'm taking sides. And so I reach out to the Smith family, and I tell this family member what the situation is, and I tell the family member, you know, I don't really agree with how this is being handled. What can I do to get this. This girl to young Women's. And she burst into tears and she told me everything that happened, it turns out.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] So this is another member of the

Ashley [00:08:26] Smith family, an immediate relative.

John Dehlin [00:08:28] Not that, not the 12 year old girl, but someone else.

Ashley [00:08:32] An immediate relative.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] Okay. Who was active at the time.

Ashley [00:08:36] Who is active.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Who is active.

Ashley [00:08:38] And your father only active member.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] Why was, why is this girl not. Why is your family basically being marginal?

Ashley [00:08:47] And I, I didn't even ask that. I asked her specifically what I could do to get this girl to Young Women's, because it's part of my calling to reach out to the inactive girls. And, and she burst into tears and she said, if you knew this girl, she said you would not cross her name off. And she, you know, said that this was an incredibly sweet girl and she just spilled the beans on the situation. So the situation is not that he had adultery, it's that he, he drugged this, this girl who was 18 in their family.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] A member. A member of the family.

Ashley [00:09:22] A member of their family.

John Dehlin [00:09:23] So former Bishop Young drugs a girl who's in.

Ashley [00:09:28] Yes. He used his wife's medication to drug this girl. He tied her up and he. He raped her. And the police were involved. He ended up going to prison for this. And he had a good lawyer that got him out on weekends, so. Because he had young children so that he could work to provide for his family and then he would go back to prison during the week. And so the rumor was that it was consensual and that rape was claimed to cover up consensual sex. But that's not what the police felt after investigating the situation. But the ward didn't care. They. They thought, you know, Bishop wouldn't do this. They called the family a bunch of liars. And I just have to clarify. This is a good family. I know this family. You know, the last remaining member that attends the church, she is a perfect example of elegance and poise. This is an incredible good family. And we're talking.

John Dehlin [00:10:43] How many members of this family.

Ashley [00:10:45] Oh, gosh.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] Stopped. Stopped going to church.

Ashley [00:10:47] Estimate like a little over two dozen. Almost three dozen members.

John Dehlin [00:10:51] So we're talking.

Ashley [00:10:52] So the ripple effect.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] Two or three dozen members of this family extended. All went inactive. One's remaining active. She's your source. And they all went inactive at the expense of the ward's protection of former Bishop Young.

Ashley [00:11:10] Yes. And the ward loved him. They adored him. They still adore him. No one thought that a bishop would do this.

John Dehlin [00:11:20] Is he super charming? Is he super charismatic?

Ashley [00:11:22] Yes, of course. He's good looking. He works in Sales. So he's a good talker. He's very educated with the gospel. So people love to listen to, like, his comments at church. And he's very smooth talker, he's very charming. And so people, they just love him. And they, you know, they said he wouldn't do this. And so essentially this family was ostracized. You know, they would whisper about this family. This family doesn't understand the atonement. And so he went to prison. He got out. He was put on a sex offenders registry. For a long time he was excommunicated. And then he was re baptized and had his blessings restored. And then he was the ward mission leader for a while. Oh, and I just have to say so. And that also wasn't the only member of that family that he had sexually abused. But the ward doesn't know about this.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] So there was that. There was at least one other member.

Ashley [00:12:24] There was one other member. She was not 18. She was younger than 18. And this went on for a while.

John Dehlin [00:12:30] But he was not convicted of that.

Ashley [00:12:32] No. And not a lot of members know about that because it's not something that the family talks about. So a good amount of the ward is under the impression that it was just this 18 year old girl. And I even had someone recently say, oh, but it's not pedophilia because she was 18. It's not as bad as pedophilia. And I'm like, what, are you kidding me? Like, they, this is how they kind of justify it to. They put it in a box to make sense for them.

John Dehlin [00:13:00] And so there was an underage girl that wasn't.

Ashley [00:13:03] There was.

John Dehlin [00:13:04] Yes.

Ashley [00:13:04] And that was pedophilia because she was not 18. And so he was put on a registry and then he was made the word mission leader. And he is very charming and very good talker. And he got three baptisms. And one of the converts had heard the rumors in the ward and so she got online and she looked up his. His registry and she called out the leadership and she said, you know, you guys are a bunch of hypocrites. And all three of those converts left. And so I think that was kind of when the ward realized this isn't just a problem for him, this is a problem for us. And they love him. And he's related to about half of the family, or, excuse me, he's related to about half of the ward. And so the wealthy members.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] It's got to be one of these wealthy dynastic wards where the families have lived there for generations.

Ashley [00:14:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] They've all been leaders and they're all loved and they all kind of, they

Ashley [00:14:11] get rotated through the leadership and they

John Dehlin [00:14:13] all kind of look after each other.

Ashley [00:14:14] Yeah, exactly. Very much so, yeah. And so members in the ward pulled together, the wealthier members in the ward that love this family pulled together some money, a lot of money to have him removed from the registry.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] He was sexual offender registry for your state.

Ashley [00:14:37] Yeah. And. And so he was removed from the registry. And so I'm learning all of these details overnight. And you know, this man, that he participated in our son's baptism, you know, and when rumors started flying around the world, Young did. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] Because you didn't know this.

Ashley [00:14:57] We didn't know. No. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:00] Charming.

Ashley [00:15:01] Oh, very much. And I loved him. I loved his family, his, his children and his wife worked with our kids in primary. You know, I had a sincere and genuine love for this family, and I still do. My opinion about him has definitely changed. But. But, yeah, so. So I'm learning all of this and, and overnight my feelings change because he's a seminary teacher in our ward now. And so. And we have youth activities, and I know we have activities at his home because I was in the young Women's presidency. And you know, I had been told going into the presidency that there were families in the ward that wouldn't allow their children to his home. And they were heavily criticized by the leadership for not having an understanding of the atonement. And so when I learned all of this, I was so angry and I was sad also, because this is a good family that is being, I mean, any person with decency can see that this is wrong, this is not right, and they just adore him and they are so sensitive about this situation. No one talks about it. No one's allowed to talk about it. If you talk about it, you are heavily rebuked and reprimanded. And so when I started reaching out to the Smith family, I started getting comments from people at church and the gossip was going. I got an anonymous text message from someone saying that I should kill myself righteous self. And it had a bunch of random numbers. So there wasn't a way for me to track it back to who sent it. So I'm going to church thinking, is that scary?

Community Responses to Clergy Misconduct

John Dehlin [00:16:49] What was that like?

Ashley [00:16:50] A little bit, you know, because I'm going to church, think about who sent me this awful message, you know, unsure of who sent this. And I had also gotten a message from his, from Bishop Young's daughter in law saying, you know what, what's going on. All of a sudden, you move back and, you know, my father in law's past is being brought up. Apparently they're completely unaware that the entire stake talks about this, that only our ward has this protection around him. But the rest of the stake, they think that this is a terrible thing. And so, you know, she said. She said his past is being brought up again, and it's making him uncomfortable. And I'm thinking to myself, it's making him uncomfortable. You know, this is. If this has altered lives, you know, this has affected lives, and his past is making him uncomfortable. You know, I just. That is just so crazy, the mentality that everyone has about this.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] Do you have any sense for what it's been like for the victims to, you know, did. From the family member you spoke with? Do you have any sense for what it's been like for the victims to see Bishop Young loved and embraced by the ward while the Smith family has been marginalized? Did you have any idea how the victims are?

Ashley [00:18:17] I absolutely do, because I don't. I'm not gonna get into any details, but when I was younger, I went through a similar situation with a family member. And, you know, when I spoke up that I kind of received the same kind of, you know, oh, they. They love you. They wouldn't do that, you know, and so I. Very.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] Meaning, your abuser. Your abuser wouldn't abuse you.

Ashley [00:18:42] Yes, exactly. And so I.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] What's that like for the abused to be told that you. Your abuser would never abuse you?

Ashley [00:18:51] I think first and foremost, it's confusing because, you know, I know for me, I felt confused. I'm like, you know, I'm telling you that this happened, and you're telling me that it didn't happen. And so you don't. I don't think there's a way to understand, you know, I can't. I can't understand how their mentality surrounding this, you know, but I know it's caused an incredible amount of hurt. And if anyone talks about this, they're spreading venom, they're spreading gossip, you know, they're not letting it go. And they don't realize that while this happened years ago, he was only just recently taken off about five. Five or so years of the registry, five years ago. But this little girl who was 12 years old, who wasn't even born at the time this was going on, her name is being crossed off because of a situation that happened years ago. And so it's just like this endless ripple effect. And I think the other thing is that our Ward has such a high transition rate and so this mentality gets transferred to the new families that move in. And so the details get lost because these details are no longer accessible as they would have been. You know, we have another, we have another young man in our ward who is on the sex offenders registry and he had child porn on his computer. He didn't act on anything that we know of, but he had child porn on his computer. He is completely ostracized from. No one talks to him, he sits by himself every week. But here you have this bishop who had this title and everyone loves him, he's charming and it's just a whole different attitude that they have around him. And you know, it's not the first time that I've seen that. When I was in college, there was a young man that I had went on a few dates with and he told me that he wanted to talk with me about something so that we could decide if we wanted to continue dating. And he said that when, before he went on his mission, he was addicted to pornography and he gotten clean before he went on his mission. And while he was out on his mission, he started having pornography withdrawals. And he was over at a member's house with his companion. The companion was in the kitchen helping the family prepare dinner. And he was in the living room with their three year old daughter sexually abusing her. And he's telling her this story over dinner. And he said he felt guilty about it. If he had not said anything, no one would have known, but he felt guilty about it. He went to his mission president and instead of the mission president calling the family in, he called the church headquarters, he called church lawyers and they circled the wagons and then they called him, the family. And they told the family what had happened. And they told the family, they encouraged them not to press charges because it was not the Christ like thing to do. They said that they would deal with him appropriately and they sent him home from his mission early and they put him on a sex offenders registry. And so this is something, you know, this, everyone knows someone, everyone has some kind of crazy story, you know, along these lines. I have a friend in Idaho right now, her husband is a bishop and they just had a president that was released because he was sexually abusing people, children within his stake, children. And you know, this is, this is a problem and it's something that is just brushed under the rug. You know, it just. I don't understand it. I don't understand it. You know, this is something that will affect that person's life. It'll affect their sex life, it'll affect their marriage, it'll affect how they raise their children. You know, a lot of these people grow up to be helicopter parents because they don't want those things happening to their kids. I mean, this is something that changes lives, and it's just brushed away. And I just as it. You know, these aren't. These aren't feminist issues or LGBT issues or, you know, this is a human being issue. You know, this. It's a matter of treating people like human beings. And. And, oh, the byu, you know, the stuff going on at BYU right now, the sexual assault, that's been going on for years. And, you know, it just.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] You mean, where specifically which things are

Ashley [00:23:40] you referring to the victims being penalized regarding the honor code.

John Dehlin [00:23:46] Yeah. So you say you're a victim of rape and then you're punished according to the honor code.

Ashley [00:23:52] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:23:53] Or disincentivized to report the rape because you're scared that if you do report the rape, then you will be punished according to the honor code.

Ashley [00:24:00] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] And the Salvage Tribune just received a Pulitzer Prize for their reporting on that topic.

Ashley [00:24:06] Yeah. But that was criticized as well.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] So really quickly, I just want to go back. So I asked you this once before, and I just want you to be as explicit as you can. You said that it's confusing to the victims to have the perpetrators protected. What else do the victims feel and experience when the perpetrators are protected and honored?

Ashley [00:24:31] It's a punch in the gut. I mean, to be criticized because you can't sit in the room the same room every Sunday, or because you can't send your kids to seminary to be taught by this man. I mean, I think members sometimes confuse forgiveness with maintaining a relationship, and they overlap the two, and they don't realize that you can forgive someone without maintaining a relationship with them, and you shouldn't have to. And I think because these members can't, I think because the Smith family has a difficult time for good reason, you know, sitting in the same room with this man or seeing him be patted on the back and, you know, giving compliments and about how amazing he is

John Dehlin [00:25:23] and being made seminary instructor over children, you know, over teenagers. Right.

Ashley [00:25:27] It's like it doesn't matter. Like it didn't even happen. And so I just. My heart just breaks for this family because it's a. It's a good family and. And to have to go through something like that, I just, you know, you ask me how I stay active, I have no. This woman's testimony is rock solid for her to continue to see this man every week. I just. I can't, you know, wrap my head around it. And what example does that send? You know, I was talking with my husband about this, and I said, what example does that set for the youth? Because they see Bishop Young has done this terrible thing, and, you know, his life turned out okay. Everyone loves him. He's even got this great calling.

John Dehlin [00:26:18] He's going to the temple again.

Ashley [00:26:19] Yeah, he's going to the temple. His family is restored, you know, and so what message does that send to them? That they can do something like this, too, and they'll be fine. And, you know, from a social economics perspective, the church is just handling this all wrong. I mean, they could have kept it private, but what made it worse is justifying it, you know. Oh, but it's not pedophilia, because. Because this person was 18. But you don't know about the other person that he.

John Dehlin [00:26:48] That he abused 18 and drugged. Right.

Ashley [00:26:51] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Forget that. He. He tied her up and drugged her. You know, it wasn't pedophilia, so it wasn't as bad. And when you're a parent in the ward, essentially, this might sound a little bit dramatic. Essentially, all the parents are robbed of the knowledge of, you know, protecting their kids.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] Exactly. Yeah. So he's now in a role over children, over teenage kids.

Ashley [00:27:20] And everyone thinks, fine, what about the protection?

John Dehlin [00:27:23] Because we know that it's very common for sexual abusers to re.

Ashley [00:27:28] Offend.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] To reoffend.

Ashley [00:27:30] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:27:30] And so by rushing to forgive him, you know, you're not only withholding information, by taking it off the registry, by shaming people who talk about it, you're withholding important information that parents, children, and, you know, adults all deserve to know. You're also putting him in positions where he's. Where he has the risk of reoffending. And by withholding the information, putting the people more at risk, becoming victims, because you've not only put them in the position to reoffend, but you've also withheld the information from them and shamed anyone who talked about it and pushed the victims out of the ward so they can't ever talk about it.

Ashley [00:28:16] Exactly. And one of the things that the members in this ward like to say is that, oh, well, this happened 18 years ago. But, you know, when you're a parent and you move into a new home, you know, the first thing that most of us do is we get on the registry to kind of see who lives around us. And I have had people that you know, offended in the 80s or 90s. And I don't care because I still see them as someone that I need to protect my kids from. And, you know, when this was going on, I got curious and I. And I started looking things up as to what the probability was of him reoffending. And the first thing that popped up was a Harvard study. And, and in the study, it said that pedophiles and rapists, that this is a sexual appetite for them, that just like an alcoholic, this is going to be something that they have to be aware of for the rest of their life and that they can maintain it through therapy and medication. I can assure you that the bishops, they're not qualified to make that judgment. They're not looking up that research. What are the chances that Bishop Young will reoffend? They're not looking up that information. And then they go and they put him in these positions, like you said, to reoffend. And, you know, you're robbing the families the opportunity to protect their kids. And I had one member. I had one member a couple weeks ago. She said, well, I just like to believe that everyone has a good heart. And I'm thinking, my husband and I, we were laughing about this because we're like, that's why Utah is the MLM capital of the country. Because that is the cloud that they live on. They just want to believe that everyone has a good heart, and that's not the reality that we live in. And then this is what you have happen. This is. This is what happens.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] Right. And so I think, one. You mentioned a difference between forgiveness and maintaining a relationship. I think it's also worth mentioning a difference between forgiveness and sort of accountability, because just because you can, you know, someone can in theory be forgiven or sort of like, okay, we can move on, but that doesn't mean they don't still need to pay, maybe even for the rest of their lives for their actions, because the impact of what they've done has literally eternal ripple effect. And so we shouldn't confuse forgiveness or at least acceptance of what someone's done and the fact that there's no reason why someone shouldn't always be aware of and subjected to the consequences in the accountability of their actions. Maybe.

Forgiveness, Accountability, and Church Teachings

Ashley [00:31:13] Absolutely. And that's. That's what the church teaches. I mean, they. There's scripture. We have scripture about how bad this is, that if any of ye offend these little ones, it'd be better that a stone be hung around your neck and you drown in the ocean. You know, this is Not a little thing. And I was a few weeks ago, I was listening to a conference talk. I think it was Elder Anderson, and he said, the atonement is great. He said, but there are going to be certain transgressions in life that are going to have lifelong consequences. And this is one of those things. And so. But the ward, they have just scooped this man up and have just put this protective bubble around him, you know, because the atonement is great. And this happened years ago. And so it just a slap in the face to the victims. And, you know, I think, I know we talked about this before, but I think it's important to talk about these things. You know, I think people should really start speaking up about these things. I feel, I feel like in the church it always seems to take someone pulling back that curtain before revelation is received. You know, Joseph Smith and Emma and the cigarette smoke. You know, suddenly there's. Yeah, suddenly there' inspiration about the word of wisdom. You know, the blacks in the priesthood and the civil rights movement. Suddenly we have revelation. You know, the same sex marriage issues in Hawaii. Suddenly the church lawyers put out the proclamation of the family. We're told it's from President Hinckley, but really it was concocted by the church lawyers. Suddenly we have this document saying, you know, this is the church's stance on same sex marriage. The BYU sexual assault issues have been going on for years. And it took a national news story before a policy was put in place to protect the victims. You know, it just always seems like we're kind of behind the curve. And one of the things that you hear members say all the time is that, oh, well, they're men. But that's not good enough. Because as a convert, that's not the platter that the church is served up on. You know, as when missionaries go out and they're teaching these investigators. They're not teaching the investigators that these are men. They're teaching the investigators that these are men that are inspired of God and they receive direct revelation from Heavenly Father. That is the platter that the church has served up on. And yet we're always behind, you know, the curve. It always takes some kind of incident before revelation is received. And I think that was another crack in my glass is just seeing these different things. You know, hearing about leaks from a website instead of hearing about tithing. And the modest stipend that is not so modest to a newly married couple or a third world member. You know, the modest stipend from a leak and not from my leaders you know, the church, they have an honesty problem. You know, a few weeks ago we had an activity in Young Women's and we had the parents there, and the secretary, she said something that just really I felt like was a punch to the gut. She said she's going over the value. And she was saying, you know, where are you going to learn these things? And she said, you can't learn them anywhere else but Young Women's. And as I look around the room, it's all converts, you know, and we teach integrity, we teach honesty, and yet our leaders are not being honest. You know, we have the BYU essays that were very quietly released onto the church website, and half of our membership doesn't even know that they're there. You know, there's just, it just always seems like we're, like we're behind the curve. And what's going to happen is that the church is going to see a massive dive in their membership numbers once the baby boomers are gone. You know, they are hemorrhaging millennials. I'm like the last year for the millennials. And it's, you know, at general conference they said it's a simple math equation. At general conference, they said that we have 30,000 wards in the world. In the church, we have 30,000 wards. Now, if you consider that the average ward has about 100 active members and in foreign countries that's even less members. If you consider that there's about 100 active members per ward, times that by 30,000 you have 3 million. We have 3 million active members. When we know that our total membership is 15 million, four times the amount of members are inactive. You know, I had a 14 year old girl in Young Women's a few weeks ago and she asked about Joseph Smith's wives and the President said, nope, that didn't happen. And what happened with this girl is that she had a friend at school pull it up on his cell phone in the hallway on the way to class. You know, I don't think that these, that the brethren, who are from a different generation realize that we are in a world of technology, that these kids have access to all of these facts, that they're on their way to class on their cell phones. And you know, after the baby boomers are gone, they're gonna see they're not able to retain their millennials. And so it's just because they're not transparent and they're not being honest about so many different things. And so it's just, it's a problem.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] Yeah. The other thing I Just want to note again, I've talked about this before, is it shows this weird set of priorities for the church because if you're gay and you can't change and you fall in love with another man and you choose to have a monogamous, committed, loving, legal marriage, you're an apostate and you're forever unwelcome at the church again. Forever. Right. And your kids can't get baptized. If you drug and rape one woman and then sexually abuse another teenager, you can be rebaptized. Yeah. You'll get, you know, maybe you'll get excommunicated. Maybe. But you can certainly, if you have power and status and influence and charm, you can eventually get rebaptized. You can retain full fellowship again, go back to the temple, get all your blessings restored, all your kids can remain.

Ashley [00:38:08] That never happens.

John Dehlin [00:38:10] Yeah. And you can be honored as if nothing ever happened. And it just shows this really strange almost perversion of priorities where legal, monogamous, committed love, law abiding citizens is apostasy. But rape and drugging people and pedophilia is sort of relative slap on the hand and you're right back in exposed to children again. And I have to wonder if subconsciously we know that Joseph Smith abused his power to become sexually involved with women. We know that he verbally abused women. Whoever dared admit that he sexually approached them or misused his power. We know that he was predatory on children. And so I wonder if that makes us more forgiving of sexual offenders and of child abusers because the founder of our church was sexually predatory and a child abuser.

Ashley [00:39:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:30] How could that not make us more lenient? Right.

Ashley [00:39:32] That was a huge issue for me with this whole issue with the bishop was the LGBT policy. I had already had an issue with the LGBT policy, but this just brought it to the forefront for me. You know, I have, I have a sister in law who is gay and she is amazing. And you know, her kids will never be allowed to be baptized. And so I really struggled with that when I saw this, when I learned that this man had done these heinous things, these terrible, awful things. And here he's allowed to be re baptized and have his blessings restored. And here my law abiding sister in law, you know, if she ever decides to adopt or have children, that they will never be allowed to be baptized in the church until they're 18. And even then it has to be approved by the first presidency. I just, like I said, these aren't civil rights issues, these are human being issues. You know, it's about treating people like human beings. And I just, I just don't understand. I just don't understand. And the brethren are going to realize is, you know, in the next decade or two that more and more people are feeling comfortable being open about their sexuality. It's going to reach a point where everyone knows someone that is gay. And these policies, you know, these don't just affect the person that is gay, this affects their family. You know, I love my sister in law. I'm not okay with this policy. Everyone knows someone and it's going to affect them in a different way and they're going to lose a lot of people. And that was one of the things for me that kind of shattered my shelf is that, you know, this just doesn't sound like a loving, a loving Heavenly Father. So for me it was this issue with the bishop. And then oddly enough, at the same time that this situation was going on with the bishop, I got online one day to put on a show for my kids. Those darn ball guppies. I put on a show for my kids. And there was a video in the feed of the sidebar. It was an I'm an ex Mormon video and I don't usually watch those. I think his name is Chris Johnson and he's amazing. But he, in this video, he said something that I felt was very profound. And he said, he said when something is true, it can be tested forward, sideways and backwards and it will still be true. And he was saying how you can't do that with the church, that we have this mound of facts, you know, at our fingertips. These aren't mommy blogs, these are renowned historians and artifacts. And this is all factual information that we have showing that the church is just another church. And then we've got one warm fuzzy feeling and the members are like, I think I'll take that. And so, you know, he's going over this and I'm like, yeah, that is so true. But then he showed like a dozen clips of different people from different religions. And you know, they're all bearing these heartfelt, tearful testimonies of how their church is true and how Heavenly Father told them that their church was true. And these are Seventh Day Adventists, Muslims, Buddhists, Mormons, Catholics. And I tell you, it was literally that moment that my shelf broke because the thought occurred to me, well, wait a minute. If Heavenly Father, why is Heavenly Father telling these people that their church is true when my church is supposed to be true? And as soon as that question popped in my Head. It was. Something broke inside of me and I knew. And you know, the honesty issue, you know, all of this happened at the same time for me. And that Sunday I went to church and I had ward council in the morning, and then I had, I was asked to say a prayer and sacrament and then I had to teach a combined lesson in young women's. And then I had a presidency meeting and then I had byc and I was excruciating. I knew I was sitting there in ward council before church, and I knew that a switch had been turned off, that the floodgates were open, there was no closing them. I could not unknow the things that I, that I knew that I had learned. You know, polygamy was always an issue for me from when I joined the church. I found out after I joined the church and I went to my BYU bishop and he said, and he laughed at me and he said, so what are you gonna do if it's true? Leave the church? And I thought, well, I guess not. And so that was something that was always on my shelf. And then you learn about the, the 14 year old women or the 14 year old girls and that they have names and you learn about, you know, that, that Emma Smith wasn't even, because he was so dishonest with his wife. She wasn't even the first woman that he was sealed to. She was like the 22nd or 23rd. I mean, all of these facts are at our fingertips and they're in the church essays. You know, this is an anti Mormon literature. These are facts. And so for me, it was, it was. I couldn't turn that clock back. I couldn't unknow the things that I learned. And I confided in a friend and my friend Mary, and she's like, well, have you heard of John de Lynn? And I was like, oh, is she gonna, you know, tell me about some anti Mormon literature? And I did. I watched. My first podcast that I watched was Tom Phillips. And I remember coming home from my run in the morning as his podcast was finishing and sitting in front of my garage and it occurring to me, it really hitting me. You know, when you listen to his pain over his family and you know, what this has all done for him, it really occurred to me, the choice that I was making, the severity of the choice that I was making, what I could lose, that I could lose my marriage, that I could, could lose my family. And so. And then the other podcast I listened to was Eric Reeves, and I felt like I listened to his right at the right time. Because in it he said, you know, you don't have to be Mormons to be a good person. And I needed to hear that because I was still, you know, anytime I thought, what am I going to do now? Now that I know these things, what am I going to do? How am I going to raise my children? I was very much a subscriber to that fear that I couldn't raise my children without the church. And, you know, the church teaches us that everything starts in the home. And they even tell you, like, don't. Don't bring your kids to church expecting us to teach them the gospel that has to be. You teach them everything they need to know in the home. But then when you try to leave the church, then they say, oh, but how are you going to raise your kids without us? How are you going to raise your kids without the church? And, like, wait a minute, you said that everything starts in the home. And so I. That's kind of where I'm at now. I don't. I think. I think it's been instilled in a lot of us that the church has this monopoly on God, you know, and you see it with a lot of people that leave the church that have been born and raised in the church, and they come to this realization that the church is just another church, and they ditch everything. And they think, well, if the church isn't true, then God mustn't be true. And I felt like the advantage that I. That I had was that I was a convert. And so for me, Heavenly Father existed in my life long before the church did, and I was having spiritual experiences long before I was a member of the church. And so, you know, the church does not have a monopoly on God or your, you know, whatever relationship you have. And so, I don't know, just so many issues.

John Dehlin [00:48:13] Yeah. No, it's so difficult. Let me ask you this. So first of all, I've had some people write in and just say, what if he's innocent? What if he really didn't do it? What if the members of the ward got his name off the. And this is the classic. This is what I hate about this topic, because immediately you have to ask, what if. You know, okay, so let me just give you an example. I have been falsely accused of things, right? So, like, I published on Facebook just a couple weeks ago, there's some institute teacher in Tucson, Arizona, right. That's telling his students that John Dehlin is estranged from his own children, that his wife lets him sleep around with other Women and that, you know, whatever, like awful false rumors, right. And so. And there's no truth to any of that. I'm in daily contact with all my children. Mark, he would never let me be unfaithful. And we're happily married. And so there is this thing about false being false accused. And it always is going to be brought up anytime that there's a rape allegation. Having said that, I know for a fact that so many legitimate rapists go completely unprosecuted because victims fear that they won't be believed in court, that they won't have a good enough lawyer in court, and that they'll just get shamed and their name will be smeared and the perpetrator will be let off and then their name will have been dragged to the mud. They will spend all this money and nothing would have happened. And so I know for a fact that rape happens. I know for the fact that they say that In Utah, like 1 in 3 women will be raped or sexually abused. It's everywhere. But at the same time, rapists get off and people are scared to come forward. But we still have the issue of, you know, what about false accusations? So if someone were to say to you, what if you got your facts wrong? What if this guy is innocent? And what if the people who fought to get his name off the sexual registry were trying to. Trying to, you know, restore the honor of a falsely accused man, what would you say to that?

Ashley [00:50:53] Well, we grew up here and so we know these families. And you know, this is all factual. This was all. There is an investigation done. This man went to prison. You know, he went to actual prison for this. He was excommunicated for like 15 years before they allowed him to be re baptized, you know, so those aren't, you know, and like I said, again, he

John Dehlin [00:51:19] was found guilty in a court of

Ashley [00:51:20] law and in the church. And like I said, we know this family, you know, the Smith family, and they're a good family. You know, my husband grew up with these people and he was best friends with Bishop Young's son. And, you know, so I feel like we have a good enough, good enough information to know, you know, this was investigated by the proper authorities and they found him guilty.

John Dehlin [00:51:51] And I just want to. This is difficult because I never want, like, like I'm. My motive is to get out in the open the fact that rape happens, sexual assault happens. But I asked these questions because it's important that we model talking about these issues. I know they're going to be victims, advocates that are like, John, you're totally asking the same bad questions. You're modeling this bad behavior. But I want us to talk about it and to practice talking about it and to get the difficult, complex issues out in the open, because that's what we have to do. Okay, so what is. So what about this idea? We've talked about this already. I'm just gonna ask it again. What's your motive? Because, you know, like, yes, it's been difficult for the victims. Yes, the man has paid his time. He's been punished by the church. He's paid, you know, he's been to prison. Why not just let it go now? Why not just say everyone? It's water under the bridge. Yeah, it's terrible, but it's time to just kind of move on. Why would you want to bring this up now?

Ashley [00:53:05] Because they want. They want to move on for him. They don't care about, you know, they're still ostracizing this family. You know, like I said, they're. They're crossing the name off of this 12 year old girl who wasn't even born yet. You know, she is being ostracized and she didn't even have anything to do with this. She wasn't born when this was going on. So this is still going on. This mentality, they're still digging this in. You know, this was just a few months ago that I was told that this family doesn't understand the atonement. So this is a mentality about this family that is being perpetuated, and that's not right. You know, when you see a kid being beaten up on the playground, do you just stand and watch or do you say, hey, that's not okay? And you know, I just, as a mother, I just, you know, and as someone who empathizes with this family and knows that they're a good family, I just don't think that anyone deserves that. I don't think. I think she should be able. This family should be able to come to church and, you know, practice their beliefs just like he does. And that's the other thing about this man, is that he knows. He knows that there are about three dozen people that are not coming to church because of him. He knows that and he stays. And to me, that's almost a little bit arrogant when you know that you're keeping that many people from coming to church. Why not move? Like, why not go to a different ward so that other people can come and, you know, practice their beliefs? But he, he doesn't. He is Comfortable. He. I don't think he cares. He knows that he's loved. He knows that he's adored in this ward. You know, he's got family in this ward. And so I just, you know, when you see something that is not right, you know, and I think that was the other reason why I was so passionate about this, is because I've seen how adamant our stake is, our ward is about just brushing this away and completely, you know, when this stuff was going on with this family, a few. The Smith family, a few weeks ago, I had to call the bishop and ask him to go and see this woman because I said, she is going to leave. We're going to lose the last member of the Smith family over this situation. And so it wasn't until I called him that he went to go and visit this family. And. And that's just the mentality that it's wrong. What other reason is there? It's wrong. It's not right. It's not okay to victim shame and victim blame. It's just not right.

John Dehlin [00:56:03] So we need to stop punishing the victims. We need to talk openly about things people deserve the information to be made safe. And the church needs to learn how to handle sexual abuse cases far more effectively and stop protecting abusers at the expense of victims and stop protecting abusers at the expense of the members and their own safety. Right.

Ashley [00:56:31] Yep. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:56:33] So that's. That's why you're speaking out.

Ashley [00:56:35] Yes, exactly. And, you know, I put in. I put in my resignation papers to the church about a week ago, and, you know, I'm okay with that. And my husband, he. I was incredibly nervous about going to my husband with my faith crisis, because my husband has always served in state presidencies and local leadership positions, and he's a very devout member. And, you know, we. I sat him down and we had a very emotional conversation about, you know, what I believe. And I think part of him blames this ward because he's like, you've stuck through so much and you're gonna give up now. But he doesn't understand that this. This just happened to happen at the same time that I was learning other things about the church. And, you know, essentially I told him, I said, I took a peek down the rabbit hole and I fell in. And, you know, I just. I can't. You know, my husband's a good man. He has the heart. He has a heart the size of Texas. And, you know, we've always been just. I know it sounds so silly, but we've always Been head over heels in love with each other, and he loves me more than he loves the church. And just knowing that is enough. You know, I told him. I told him that I didn't ever want him to feel like we were going in different directions. And I said, I will always be pointed in the direction that you're going, and I will support you in whatever you believe. And just him knowing that he has been incredibly supportive, and he's got a few cracks in his shelf, but he's just been incredibly supportive. And through all of this, I feel like I've fallen in love with my husband a second time. Because when we got married, I saw him as this priesthood holder, and I saw him as this just, you know, authoritative. Just this amazing person. But now I see him for who he is. He's a good husband. He's a good father. You know, he's a leader in his professional life. He's got a good heart. And it's. It sounds funny, but this has actually brought us even closer than what we were. And so I'm ready to close that door. And we've compromised on a lot of things, and we're just gonna move forward from here.

Leaving the Church and Looking Back

John Dehlin [00:59:09] Do you. Looking back, you were a foster child. The church caught you at a very vulnerable time. Do you regret having been raised in the church? Do you regret giving so much your life to the church? Are you at peace with it? Do you see it as good and bad?

Ashley [00:59:30] I see it as a little bit of good and bad, I think, you know, like I said, Kristen Bennion. I needed that. I needed to hear the things that she said to feel like a good person again. You know, I felt like I was less than everyone else when my husband and I got married, because I hadn't practiced abstinence. And I just always felt less. And, you know, but. And I was telling my husband this the other day, and he said, but you got me out of this. And I was like, oh, yes, I did. And so, you know, there definitely perks. And just because you leave the church, it's unfortunate that people think that you're lost and you leave because you're offended. You know, it's not that you learn that it's just a church, but you take what is good. You know, we still do family home evening every week, but instead of learning about Joseph Smith, I teach my kids about being honest and doing good things for other people. And you take what's good. I'm taking funeral potatoes, and, you know, I'm taking the morals that I was taught and the values and the service and you leave all the other stuff that you learned was not true.

John Dehlin [01:00:53] Okay, so. So overall, it was hard.

Ashley [01:00:56] I came out on top, I think.

John Dehlin [01:00:58] All right. Okay, cool. Are you, are you at all worried about how the ward members are going to treat you now?

Ashley [01:01:09] There's a lot of people that are going to be upset if when they find out about this podcast, it's going to offend probably my entire ward. But you know what, at the end of the day, I feel that I did a good thing. I spoke up for someone that didn't have a voice and I'm okay with that. And we're on our way out of this ward anyways. We're in the process of moving right now. Sorry, this is my phone. But I feel at the end of the day, I stuck up for what was right. And sometimes when you stand up for what is right, it doesn't make you a popular person, but it does give you a clean conscience. And so I'm okay with that.

John Dehlin [01:02:00] Okay. Well, we've had a wonderful following online. Just want to let you know that we've had over 5,000 views. This has been shared at least 20 times and it says 62,000 people reached so far. So I think that this is already starting to make its ripple. And I just can't thank you enough actually, for being willing to talk about this. Yeah, I want to thank all our listeners who have made comments along the way. We have tons and tons of comments. We've really appreciated the listeners engaging there. People are sending you thank yous, telling you how brave they feel you are, how courageous this is. Several people have commented how they've seen the similar types of COVID ups in their own wards and in their own stakes that victims are always sort of like put at a lower status than the abusers. And there's a really good comment by Gina Colvin that I think I wanted to read out. She says they, the leaders aren't vested in protecting victims. They're protecting themselves, the leaders, and the church first. Anything that upsets the fabric of leadership is the greatest sin in the church. You can abuse children, but while you still support the leaders you are all in and loved, the minute you point the finger rightly at our leadership, they will bring hell down on you. And that's from the wise Dr. Gina Colvin. I don't think we can argue with Dr. Colvin.

Ashley [01:03:42] What do you think? No, probably not.

John Dehlin [01:03:45] So anyway, Ashley, I just want to thank you for coming on Mormon Stories. I can't believe you've Made. Yeah. I can't believe you've made this progress in one month.

Ashley [01:03:54] I don't know if that's a good thing.

John Dehlin [01:03:56] That's crazy.

Ashley [01:03:56] But you know what?

John Dehlin [01:03:57] Slow down, slow down.

Ashley [01:03:59] But you know what? You know, the podcasts were a tremendous, tremendous help. And then the ex. The ex Mormon Reddit site, that was incredibly helpful. I mean, you need something when you are going through this transition. And there is even. There was even some things that I was reading to my husband the other night from the Reddit, you know, about clapping in church and rapping in church. And we were both laughing so hard. And I told my husband, I said, these are the people that the leaders say are disgruntled, that are angry, you know, that were offended. And I said, look, they're just normal, regular people that had questions. And so I love the ex Mormon Reddit group. You know, they're just normal people. You know, they're just normal people that had questions and came to the same realizations that you did. And so reaching out and finding that support was huge for me. And, you know, like I told you once, you know, once you come to these realizations and you learn about this, that our roots are not what we were told they were, what. What other choice is there? You know, what do you do? I tried going to church and I was sick. I couldn't. Knew that. I knew that I was done, that I couldn't. I couldn't turn back that clock. And so, you know, you move forward. And, you know, I told my husband, I said, I'm still the same person. You know, I don't really have a desire to go out and drink or, you know, cigarettes or yuck. No offense to anyone that enjoys cigarettes, but, you know, I'm still the same person. I'm a mother. I still value, you know, speaking clean. And, you know, I'm still the same person. And, you know, it's been a good thing, but it's been a good thing because of the support that I was able to get.

John Dehlin [01:06:04] Well, we're so happy to have played a small part in your journey.

Ashley [01:06:08] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:06:09] But more importantly, we're so grateful that you had the courage to speak up on a very important issue. I'll just say we tried hard to be respectful. We didn't mention people's names. We didn't even mention the state where this has happened. We did that as a way to address the issues, talk about the system, but not shame people as much as we could. And there's people who've already written, Ashley, that they Think this podcast is gonna save lives. So thank you so much for your courage and being willing to talk about it.

Ashley [01:06:42] It Absolutely.

Closing Remarks and Support

John Dehlin [01:06:45] All right.

Ashley [01:06:46] Thanks so much, John.

John Dehlin [01:06:47] Oh, yeah, my pleasure. I'll just mention that again, thanks to the live listeners for joining us on Facebook. We want to thank everyone who supports us, also just through the podcast and Everywhere else on YouTube, want to make sure people know that this couldn't happen without the generous support of people who donate to Mormon Stories or the Open Stories foundation. We are a 501c3 nonprofit, and so all your donations are tax deductible. We're transparent in our finances, and everything you donate goes to support this type of programming, the staff, and the mission of the osf. So please continue supporting us. We will continue doing things like this. If you go to mormonstories.org There's a little donate button. You can click on it, you can designate how much you want to donate monthly. Monthly donations help us sort of have a budget and predict what we can invest in in terms of a staff and resources to make this information more available to others. So if any of you love these programs, if you benefit from them, if you enjoy them, if you believe in what we do, please make a tax deductible donation. And we promise to use your money to alleviate the suffering caused by religious transitions, both in Mormonism and without. Please comment on our blog mormonstories.org if anybody wants to share their experiences of abusers being glorified and protected and of victims being marginalized, we'd love to see those comments on mormonstories.org and again, if you guys have a great story you want to share, please share it. The final thing I'll say is that we have various events coming up on our calendar. You can go to mormontransitions.org events or the event calendar you can find on the menu of Mormon Stories. We've got a Fort Collins, Colorado event May 4th through 5th. We've got Dallas, Texas, July 7th through 8th. We've got a mixed faith retreat happening in Salt Lake City, Utah County, August 11th through 12th. We're coming to Seattle September 14th and 15th. And we're trying to come to Australia October 20th through 22nd. For those of you who are willing to register for that event, we want to thank Amy Grubbs of the Open Stories foundation and Cody Layton for making all this possible along with the OSF board. So I just have to always make those comments because we couldn't do this without the OSF and those that support us. So again, Ashley to you, to your wonderful husband, to the victims who have spoken out. Thank you so much again. And please, please join us again on Mormon Stories. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the the Lower lights and other sources.

Ashley [01:09:49] Cease to make me hope

John Dehlin [01:09:57] when with

Ashley [01:09:58] the wounded heart, anger or malice I draw myself apart, Searching my soul.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.