Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 1044

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John delinquent. That's January 8, 2019. We are broadcasting to you live today from Columbus, Ohio. We are so very excited to have today's guests. We're doing something we've never done before on Mormon Stories Podcast. Today, we are interviewing Leah and Cody Young. Hi, guys.

Guest [00:01:20] Hi.

Cody Young [00:01:20] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Thanks for joining us.

Leah Young [00:01:22] Glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] And not only are we really excited because we've never interviewed Lee and Cody Young before, we are going to be talking to them about their family's epic faith journey. As many of you know, for the past several years on Mormon Stories podcast, we've been focusing on people's faith journeys. Even though we've done 20 of these or more, we have learned that this is one of the most therapeutic and healing and helpful things that we do on Mormon Stories because. Because so many Mormons are going through a faith crisis, it's almost as if a faith crisis is becoming the norm in Mormonism instead of the exception. And when someone's going through a faith crisis, they so often feel alone, they feel broken, they feel scared, they feel terrified. And so people can't get enough of these kind of regular, everyday Mormon faith journey stories. And so we're kicking off 2019 with. With a family that I know and love. My wife Margi and I have become friends with the Young, and we think you're really going to enjoy their story. And this includes their upbringings as Mormons. This includes their marriage, their temple marriage, Cody going to medical school, them serving in the church, having young kids, dealing with the child with special needs, and just dealing with the large Mormon family. And also Leah eventually starting her own business as a Mormon mother of four. And how all of that culminated in a faith crisis for their family, which was just last year. It's kind of hard to believe that it's been that short of a time. And what we're going to do differently this time that we've never done before is we're going to be bringing Brinley Young on and for the first time interviewing a Mormon teenager about her faith journey and the perspective, sort of a teen perspective of a faith crisis. And we're going to give her her own time and spotlight for a while and we're really excited about that. So that's going to be later in the afternoon. We're going to focus the morning on Leah and Cody's story. Then we're going to bring Brynlee back from school and we're going to add her and then finish out. This is going to be another one of those probably four, five, six hour epic interviews that we do. So for those of you who need to, you can put this on one and a half speed, but we don't go for sound bites on Mormon Stories podcast. We like to go in depth because we find that that's most helpful. We're really grateful for everyone who is joining us live on Facebook. We hope that you will incorporate your comments and questions, send them. We would really like to hear from you and we're really excited about today's interview. I'll just make a few quick announcements. This episode is brought to part by the gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Project that can be found on mormonfaithcrisis.com that's a cooperative effort that myself, Margi, my wife and Natasha Helfer Parker have started separate from the Open Stories Foundation. It's its own thing where we're providing, trying to provide as needed coaching and workshops and retreats and hopefully blog content and eventually a book and a podcast supporting people who are in faith crisis with more hands on practical materials. So you can check us out there. We do have an intensive couples weekend coming up in February for like four or five or six couples that want to do over a weekend really intensive work with me, Margi and Natasha. We think that's going to be a really powerful event. Natasha and Margi are wonderful partners and this whole project is just about saving marriages, saving lives, helping people heal and grow and find joy at the other side of what feels like a catastrophic, terrible faith crisis. We do believe that if you lean into a faith crisis, do it right, work hard, keep your wits about you, keep the good and find support. Your faith crisis can become the best thing that ever happened to you in your life. And that may sound impossible for those of you who are in the middle of it, but that's what we're, that's what we believe and that's what we're going for. So check us out@mormonfaithcrisis.com and we just appreciate everyone joining us today. Those are our announcements. So without any further ado, Leah and Cody Young, welcome to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Leah Young [00:06:02] Thank you.

Cody Young [00:06:03] Thanks, John.

Leah Young [00:06:03] We're excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:06:04] Your home is beautiful.

Leah Young [00:06:06] Thank you.

Cody Young [00:06:06] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] And it's fun to try this live streaming thing from, from Ohio.

Leah Young [00:06:12] Yeah. Thanks for coming out.

Cody Young [00:06:14] Yeah.

Leah's Mormon Upbringing and Childhood

John Dehlin [00:06:15] Okay, so I think where we always like to begin is with kind of the respective early morning up Mormon upbringings of, of both of the people that we're interviewing. So I don't know, Cody, you're older, right?

Cody Young [00:06:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] Do we want to start with you or do we want to start with Leah?

Cody Young [00:06:35] Ladies first.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Ladies first. Okay, so Leah, tell us a little bit about your Mormon upbringing and to what extent your story is similar or different from so many that we've heard before.

Leah Young [00:06:49] Yeah. So I grew up in Provo, Utah. And you know, at that time, it was just the way, you know, everybody, everybody I knew was Mormon. There were only a few people in my entire high school who weren't Mormon. I lived in, in a home for a lot of my teenage years, for most of my teenage years up above the Provo Temple. So I would jog around the temple, around the mtc. I remember once when my brother was at the mtc, jogging around and seeing him and I had run up to give him a big hug and then we were stopped by one of his leaders, like, you cannot see each other. And it was like, he is my brother. So it was, you know, missionaries around my home every day. We lived very close to BYU campus. It was really just a part of the way of life and there was a lot of great, great things about that. Something that was really different for me was that I was raised by a single mom. So when I was three, my, my parents were divorced. My dad was a convert to the church. And as far as I can remember, there was only one other woman that I knew of in our ward in Oak Hills who wasn't married. So that was very unique. And I would say that my mom was a little on the less orthodox spectrum. So while we attended every week and I went to seminary, which was a break time seminary at school, so it wasn't early morning seminary and I went to mutual and all of those things. What our home life was as far as gospel learning was a little bit more all encompassing. Like we went to different churches, we went to celebrate other people's religions. My mom didn't seem threatened by that. We really were taught to just love and to Try not to judge people and put labels on people in that way. So I never really grew up with, you know, scripture study every week and family home evening every week. I would say it was a little more liberal in that way. But, you know, everyone I knew, everyone I knew was Mormon. It was my entire. It was, it was everything. And the popular kids at school were the really. The really Mormon kids. And, you know, and I think having my dad excommunicated when I was young was. Well, there's a lot to that. But I. I think it was difficult for me to. In that relationship.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] I. I cannot imagine what it would be like in Provo, Utah, what, in the 90s, 80s, to. To be in that kind of pressure cooker and to have your dad excommunicated. And I'm guessing that may have led to your parents splitting up. But what was that? How old were you when that happened?

Leah Young [00:09:57] I don't know how old I was. When he was excommunicated, I was very young. I think I was either three or four. So I was very young. So I don't remember the event, but I do remember feeling that he was very much othered, you know, feeling that, you know, when you're in church and you're taught families can be together forever and your dad has been kicked out of that equation, you're different from everyone else. And I would say that there's an element to that that sort of gets in the way of love and forgiveness and acceptance and understanding of a parent because. Because of what the church teaches about people who, who do bad things and who are excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] What time did your parents split up? What. What age?

Leah Young [00:10:49] I was three.

John Dehlin [00:10:50] Okay. So they. That same year.

Leah Young [00:10:53] I think it was around that time.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] He's excommunicated and your mom and dad got divorced. Okay. So you. And you stayed with your mom. Okay, so what was that like? Yeah, talk a little bit more about those early years in primary and, and even going into young women's and mutual when it's a single mom in Provo raising two. Three. Three kids. Yeah, three.

Leah Young [00:11:18] Yeah. A single female entrepreneur.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] So what was her occupation?

Leah Young [00:11:23] So she ran. She opened and operated one of the largest childcare centers in Utah Valley. And so she had kiddos from six weeks old in through an accredited kindergarten and after school program. And it just had to continue growing so that she could support our family.

John Dehlin [00:11:38] Okay, that's a big deal because women aren't supposed to work outside the home in Mormonism. Right?

Leah Young [00:11:43] Yeah. So that was another thing that was really different about My family is that I didn't have a dad in the picture, at least as far as Mormonism was concerned. And my mom was a very strong female provider. So I was so young when my parents were divorced. So I don't remember maybe the trauma of that experience. I never really remember him being in the home, but I do remember very much feeling like I was always different from everyone else because everybody else had parents that were married and they had the priesthood holder in the home. And so I would say I felt a little bit on the outlines of the traditional Mormon type of family.

John Dehlin [00:12:27] But you still. And your ward was at. Was it more middle class? Was it affluent? Was it lower class? What was your word like?

Leah Young [00:12:37] I would say it was middle. I mean, middle to. I mean, it was Oak Hills. I don't. I don't know. I would say. Now, looking back, I would say it was very middle class, but maybe other people would think it was. I mean, Stephen Covey was in our ward and then Sean Covey moved in and was in our ward and I nanny.

John Dehlin [00:12:55] That sounds upper class.

Leah Young [00:12:56] Yeah, well, there were different. I'll say that there were. There were different types of homes in the area, you know, so it was. It was a good mix. It was a good mix.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] So what are your memories of, like, primary. Of primary and what the church meant to your family in those childhood years?

Leah Young [00:13:14] Yeah, it's hard to. I mean, it was just like I said, it was the way it was. Like on Sunday you go to church and you don't do anything else. And we, we did that. We did not. We. We obeyed the Sabbath day. Generally. My mom would take us into nature a lot, or sometimes we. We would have nature church periodically, you know, but it was just. It's hard to look back and say how was it different than it maybe was for someone else who didn't grow up in the church? Because it was. It was all I knew.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] But do you remember the primary songs?

Leah Young [00:13:48] Yeah, all the primary songs.

John Dehlin [00:13:49] Did you have any favorites?

Leah Young [00:13:52] Jesus Wants Me for a Sunbeam, Popcorn Popping on the Apricot Tree. We did road shows back then. I remember being cottage cheese in a Great Roadshow. We were all different parts of fruit salad and. Yeah, but I do remember feeling like we were different. You know, we were different. And when I got older, my mom shared with me that, you know, a lot of people in the ward, it was a great ward, but a lot of people would get together and have dinners and, you know, we were never invited ever to have dinner at one of the. At one of the family's homes. And I think my mom felt like it was because we were, you know, we were different. We were the. You know, my mom was working and there was no father in the home, and we just didn't really fit the mold, especially in Oak Hills.

John Dehlin [00:14:43] So you get a sense that maybe your mom felt lonely or a little bit cut off or isolated. And then I wonder if also people just thought, well, this is a single working mom. That's kind of weird.

Leah Young [00:14:55] Yeah. Yeah. I think she was just probably too busy to really. I think probably she had some of those feelings. But my mom's always found a way to find those who need her and like, really focus on loving those people. So I didn't get the sense that she was like spending time wallowing in self pity at all. It wasn't until I got older and she shared that with me that I realized that there were some really deep wounds and some really deep pain. Yeah.

Cody Young [00:15:21] Okay.

Leah's Teenage Years and Youth Faith

John Dehlin [00:15:23] So do you remember your teenage years? Your youth, you know, young women's, young men's, that kind of thing?

Leah Young [00:15:28] Yeah, young women's. I mean, again, I went. Everyone went. I mean, everyone at school went to Young Women's. Right?

John Dehlin [00:15:35] Was it a big group? A lot of kids?

Guest [00:15:37] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:15:37] I mean, compared to maybe outside of Utah, you know, maybe like, I couldn't give you a number, but all the classes were completely full and I attended. And I had a boyfriend for several years throughout high school. And that sort of made me different too. I think it was sort of frowned upon, even though I didn't really get that at the time. So I think when I had a boyfriend, I. I sort of. Some of my church friends distance themselves.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] What do you mean? It's that maybe people outside of Utah won't get this. But how is it weird in Utah for a teenage girl to have a boyfriend that sounds as normal and as American as apple pie? Talk about Utah culture. Because I could talk about it, but I don't.

Leah Young [00:16:23] Yeah, maybe you can. I mean, I was just living it, so I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] So none of your friends had boyfriends?

Leah Young [00:16:28] No, some of my friends had boyfriends, but in Oak Hills, not. Some of them did. Some of them did. They would on and off, but I sort of had this boyfriend consistently. And it sort of, I think, made my friends feel. Feel uncomfortable about me.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] Okay, just. Just quickly. There's this weird thing I've noticed. My kids grew up in, you know, mostly in Logan, and then we moved to Salt Lake, like, so they'll have in high school, like six dances a Year. Right. And there's this thing where even if you really like someone, you can't take the same person to the. To. To consecutive dances or to two dances in a year's period of time, because dating is wrong. And not just dating. You know, Prior to age 16, dating 16, 17, and 18, your sophomore, junior, senior years, you're not supposed to date, even if you're of age. Because in Utah culture, for the most part in Utah, Mormon culture, dating is bad. And so my daughters would have to, like, find random guys to go to dances with because there was this cultural prohibition, again, on taking the same guy to two dances, let alone three or four or five or six. Now, when I was growing up in high school in Katy, Texas, if you had a girlfriend or a boyfriend, that's who you would take to all the dances. And it was just normal. And by the way, I always had a girlfriend or was always dating somebody. But in Utah, it's not that way. Yeah.

Leah Young [00:17:56] Even when we were dating, like, we would go to the dances with other people. Like when we were dating, we would go with other people to the dances.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] Yeah. Yeah, Right. Yeah. Even if you.

Leah Young [00:18:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] That's a weird culture.

Guest [00:18:10] So.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] So anyway, I've never really heard someone say that they were kind of looked down upon or. Or felt odd because they had a boyfriend. But you did.

Leah Young [00:18:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] Why did you have a boyfriend when society was telling you not to?

Leah Young [00:18:22] I mean, maybe I wasn't just very clued into society, but, you know, my mom was working full time and my dad wasn't, you know, in my life as much. And so I think that that was a part of needing and wanting that connection with someone.

John Dehlin [00:18:39] Why wasn't your dad in your life as much? Whatever you're comfortable saying.

Leah Young [00:18:48] I wish I knew.

John Dehlin [00:18:52] Was he living in provo? I'm making you. I'm. I'm touching a nerve there. So that must have been super hard to be growing up in Provo with a dad that wasn't there. It's hard enough to deal with the divorce to then have your dad not involved. Must have been super hard.

Leah Young [00:19:26] Yeah. And as I've gotten older and we've really worked to really love him and see him in a new way. And it's been such a gift because there's, you know, there's. Everybody has a story, right? Everybody has a story. And I think I really tried to learn his story, you know, and just forgive him and just love him. And he has a lot of pain. And I think we all have different pain. Right. In our lives. And I don't think it's because he didn't want to be there. I think it was because of a lot of reasons, but I think it was because of a lot of pain and maybe at times not feeling good enough, you know, and being exed from the tribe and knowing how his kids might view him was probably really painful for him. So, I mean, there's some deep wounds there that now, as I'm an adult and I'm learning more about him, I'm able to uncover and understand in a way that really draws my heart to him. And at this point, I just feel so much compassion for him and so much forgiveness and love.

John Dehlin [00:20:47] What'd you feel at the time as a teenage girl whose dad wasn't as involved as you would have liked?

Leah Young [00:20:52] Somewhat abandoned. And it could be hard in the church, you know, because there's daddy, daughter dates, you know, I mean, the focus is on the family. So it works really well for people who are doing the Mormon program perfectly. But if you are not in the exact same program, you know, and you don't have any control over that, then there's. It can be hurtful in ways that you can only understand if you're, you know, a child who, when you sing, families can be together forever. And all of the other kids have that Mormon family. You grow in a different way, you know, in the church, certainly.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:21:40] But I. But I think it helped me to also be more compassionate and more understanding of people who felt like they didn't fit in either. At times. I mean, I felt like I fit, but there were some things that I was just different from the Provo, Utah Mormon family upbringing in ways.

John Dehlin [00:22:00] And you're saying that maybe having the boyfriend was sort of a way to fill that hole that you felt like at the time your dad wasn't filling?

Leah Young [00:22:09] Maybe. Yeah, part of. Part of it.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] Okay, so did that affect your testimony as a youth, or were you. Or did it strengthen it? Were you rock solid? What was your. Your faith like as a teenage girl?

Leah Young [00:22:25] My faith, I was just like, very much like, this makes sense. Like, it just made a lot of sense. But I never thought of life outside, if that makes sense. Like, we were having this meeting. I'm sure we'll talk about it with our stake president. And he's like, well, what's the root of your testimony? And it's like, okay, well, that's impossible to talk about without talking about the layers of programming that begin when you're 18 months old. When you grow up, especially in a community Like Provo, Utah. You know, what was my testimony? It was what everyone's was. You know, Joseph Smith was a prophet. And, you know, when you're in the church, you're happy and see how happy we are here in Provo, Utah. But I didn't have a lot of experience outside of that paradigm. It was just, you know, it was the program. This is. This is. This is what I believe. This is what I do. I will only get married to a returned missionary. I will get married in the temple. Everyone my whole life has told me it's the most sacred place on the earth, that it's the closest way to God. That was all I knew. And so, yeah, I believed it. I trusted everyone around me, every one of my aunts and uncles, my mom, my teachers at school, my teachers at church. I mean, it was everybody, byu, the temple. You know, it was so enmeshed in my reality that there's no way to even distinguish lines. It was like, who I was. Like, my testimony was who I. Who I was. It was my whole outlook on everything. I don't know even how to differentiate.

John Dehlin [00:24:05] Were you close to, like, the Provo Temple and the mtc?

Leah Young [00:24:08] We lived right. Like, I looked at it every day. Like, our house is on the hill right there.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] That's tense.

Leah Young [00:24:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] You know, aside from Rexburg, and maybe not even Rexburg, you know, Utah county within Mormonism has this reputation of being just super intense. You would think, you know, non Mormons would think Salt Lake City would be the most Mormon city of all. But of course, we have a lesbian mayor. Like, it's half gentile, you know, but, you know, all that flight went to Utah county, so it's Provo and Highland and Alpine and Lehigh. That's super, intensely Mormon. Do you have. When you're growing and it's sort of like this bubble or like the ocean where the fish is swimming in the ocean and doesn't even. Isn't even aware of the water because it's all it knows. Is that what it was like?

Leah Young [00:24:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:00] Were you even aware that you were in this massive, intense pressure cooker bubble?

Leah Young [00:25:06] No, not. Not really. My mom did expose us to other religions, so I think in that way, I mean, we would go the Hare Krishnas, I think, sometimes because they served free meals, but we would go to the Hare Krishnas. We went to the Baptist church. Like, so I was aware that there were other religions out there, but I really did always sort of have those goggles on that, like, they just don't have the full truth, you know? I always sort of dismissed that, but that was really my only awareness of really, other religions or. Yeah. I mean, I was in the. I was so in the bubble. I was so in the bubble.

John Dehlin [00:25:42] And then what was your personal religiosity, like scripture study, prayer, your relationship with your heavenly Father as a teenager?

Leah Young [00:25:52] I would say it wasn't orthodox, again, because scriptures weren't pushed in the home. So I would say, like, I didn't grow up maybe with the same types of shame, in a way, because I kind of felt whole and complete and. Okay. Because I wasn't maybe, in a way, comparing myself at that time in my life. No, that changed. But at that time in my life, because in the home, I wasn't having very rigid expectations. I was not maybe reading my scriptures as much as other kids were or.

John Dehlin [00:26:28] But also not feeling guilty about it. Okay, that's nice. And then I understand you were a cheerleader at Provo High. The only other person I know that was a cheerleader at Provo High was Mary Holland, I believe. Jeffrey Holland's daughter, if I'm remembering correctly. I dated her a little bit my freshman year at byu. What was that like, being a cheerleader? And did you have other extracurricular activities in high school?

Leah Young [00:26:57] Yeah, so I started with, like, drama. So I was, like, doing a lot of acting, and I really loved that. And I loved Marvin Payne, who was on Saturday's Warrior, and Lori Payne. They were. Well, she was our teacher.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] And on the original or the remake?

Leah Young [00:27:13] The original.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] Okay.

Leah Young [00:27:15] Yeah. And so they were great. And I was in the Music man, and I was in Guys and Dolls, and I loved that. And if I'm being honest, I think lead secondary. No, just like.

John Dehlin [00:27:25] Okay.

Leah Young [00:27:26] Dancer. Yeah. Supporting cast. My brother was more in. In the lead roles, but I didn't become a cheerleader until. Was it my sophomore year or my junior year.

John Dehlin [00:27:36] Was that intense, really competitive?

Leah Young [00:27:38] No. No cheering?

John Dehlin [00:27:40] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:27:41] No, not at all. I mean, there were, like, seven girls on my team. Oh, yeah. In my grade. I can't remember now if it was my sophomore year or my junior year. I can't even remember. I mean, it was over 20 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:27:53] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:27:55] I think a part of that was wanting to feel more in the tribe. Right. Wanting to feel more, you know, these good Mormon girls doing good Mormon things. And those were the cheerleaders. And I wanted to be a good Mormon girl doing good Mormon things. And I wanted to feel accepted and connected. And I think I did. I think part of that decision was born out of insecurity. If I'm being totally honest. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:26] Okay. Did you have a good time?

Guest [00:28:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:29] Okay.

Guest [00:28:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:31] What was seminary like? I imagine you did release time seminary time seminary.

Leah Young [00:28:37] Yeah. It was just a part. Everybody did it. I mean, everybody love.

John Dehlin [00:28:41] It was an important part of the formation of your testimony. Did you hate.

Leah Young [00:28:45] Wasn't my favorite. I thought some of the. A lot of the concepts were somewhat abstract to me. Right. And it was hard for me. You know, I was raised in a home with a. With a female, strong female woman. And in the gospel you just mostly learn about men. It's just men in the scriptures, it's men who are teach. I mean, I don't think there were any female seminary teachers that I recall at all. So it's sort of like I'm being raised in this very sort of female strong home and the church is sort of the exact opposite of that, you know, and so it's sort of two worlds colliding. Right. But you know, I went. I wasn't, you know, if I were going to skip a class, I would sometimes skip seminary. But yeah, you know, it was. I went and it was a part of my. It was a part of my upbringing. It was part of the culture. It wasn't. It wasn't exceptional that I went because everybody went. You know, I wouldn't say I. It's hard to know relative to other people, how strong was my testimony? I don't know. It was a part of my testimony. Sure. I mean, I remember the object lessons. I remember the nail and the hammer and like talking about the Bible and talking about the Bible.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] Wait, the nail and the hammer does a lot of chastity?

Leah Young [00:30:07] No, the nail and the hammer in the board was the atonement. Like you can. Oh, shoot, you can nail the Bible, but it's still spinning. But then it was something about the Book of Mormon. And then you nail the Book of Mormon next to it and it makes the Bible firm.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] Oh, that's like.

Leah Young [00:30:25] So it doesn't spin so people aren't confused.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] And he's nailing the scriptures to a wall.

Leah Young [00:30:29] No, he's like. It was like, imagine if this nails in here. The Bible can spin, but you nail the Book of Mormon next to it and then there's no more confusion in the Bible because the Bible won't spin anymore. That was sort of the object lesson. So I remember things like that. Yeah. I don't remember the really quite the visual chastity lessons that I've heard others talk about on Mormon stories. They probably were there, but it was. Maybe my memory isn't quite as good.

John Dehlin [00:30:58] And then sometimes there's this reputation that Utah Mormon teenagers in high school kind of party and goof off, but do that secretly and don't really follow the commandments as much as maybe devout Mormon kids outside of Utah. What was your experience there? And personally, you know, the. The defining. I don't know, traits of a Mormon teenager would be that they don't have sex, that they don't, you know, word of wisdom, they don't drink, they don't smoke. You know, anything you want to share about any of that, Any of the law of chastity or shame, stuff that gets put on many of us. Anything you want to talk about in that regard?

Leah Young [00:31:35] I would say, you know, I think that there probably were groups of people who were doing, like, not good stuff generally, but I just didn't see it. Like I told you last night, someone once said the F word to me, and I was like. I cried. I couldn't even believe it. Like, not only did she say the F word, but she said it to me. You know, I was very naive. I was very sheltered. I remember my boyfriend's family, like, making fun of me. Like, Leah is, like, in her own world. I was raised without television because my mom felt really strongly about, like, that media is unhealthy.

Cody Young [00:32:16] So do I.

Leah Young [00:32:17] So I would say I was very naive. And I was not exposed to drugs, drinking, swearing. I wasn't. It wasn't a part of my awareness. None of my friends that I knew ever were involved with anything like that. I'm sure it went on. Right. But maybe I was in a group where people were striving to be more, I don't know, Mormon? I mean, I don't know. But I think it does happen. I think it does happen.

John Dehlin [00:32:54] Okay. Any law of chastity shame you want to talk about?

Leah Young [00:33:00] No.

John Dehlin [00:33:00] Up to you. Okay. All right. Okay. Okay, cool. So anything else you want to talk about, your upbringing before we switch over to Cody? Family or church or personal?

Cody's Background and Early Upbringing

Leah Young [00:33:13] Yeah, I mean, this is probably the less interesting part, is my upbringing, really. And I mean, it was. It was everything. It was my culture, but I was raised by a strong female entrepreneur.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] Oh, yeah. Did your mom have any sense of feminism? Did she have a sense for the era? Did she have a sense for women's rights? Did she ever. Did she identify as a feminist? Did she ever teach you any feminist theory? Because that obviously wouldn't fit within orthodox Mormonism. And yet how could she not be aware of the struggle for women to make achievements in American society? And in Mormon society, given that she was such a sore thumb relative to the host environment.

Leah Young [00:33:55] Any of that come to find out as I'm older. Yes, very much so. I mean, I think that she was involved in groups of women who were working to help make the church less patriarchal. I know that she was connected to some of the September six. She really struggled with those things, but as a child, she didn't really share that with us. So as a child, sorry, as a child I wasn't really aware of those things because I think that she wanted to, you know, make it as not confusing as possible. Her example, I think was feminist. Just her exam, like her everyday lived, like I'm a strong female provider. Like I never grew up thinking there wasn't anything I could do. I could do whatever. I mean, as far as my capabilities now, I did grow up believing that a woman lives a life that doesn't look like my mom's life. Right. So because at church I was taught you get married. You know, for my mom it didn't work out, so that's okay. Like she didn't really have total control over that. But for me, I knew, I knew. And this is part of our story we'll get into. But like I knew that I would get married and would have babies and would be an at home mom. Like that's the plan, that's the path. It was just a part of me, like Mormon culture was a part of me. And that actually led, which we may get into later, into me leaving college because I wanted to go and experience and do and become all of this before I got married. And I knew I had this like short window. So I felt like if I stayed in college then I would miss out on this opportunity to help women have babies and all this.

John Dehlin [00:35:45] So let's talk about that. So you, so you graduated from high school. Most kids go to byu. What did you do?

Leah Young [00:35:51] I went to uvsc.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] Okay. Uvsc before was uvu.

Leah Young [00:35:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:55] And what'd you study?

Leah Young [00:35:57] I wanted to become a nurse.

John Dehlin [00:36:00] Okay.

Leah Young [00:36:01] I wanted to become a nurse and I wanted to work in the, in the newborn nursery. And then I became a CNA and I realized, well, I really want to be more involved in the birthing process, but I know I can't be a doctor

John Dehlin [00:36:16] because.

Leah Young [00:36:17] Because I have to. I'm going to be a mom.

Cody Young [00:36:21] Right.

Leah Young [00:36:21] So that wasn't an option.

John Dehlin [00:36:22] So your mom didn't make you want to become a career woman? Your mom's.

Leah Young [00:36:27] No, she did not make me want. No, no.

John Dehlin [00:36:30] And you didn't sense she wanted you to become an independent career woman.

Leah Young [00:36:34] I didn't sense that.

John Dehlin [00:36:36] You sense that she. She had to do this because that's kind of what fell onto her. Yes, but she wanted the Mormon dream for you.

Leah Young [00:36:44] I guess so. I don't know if there was a lot of conversations around that at all.

John Dehlin [00:36:48] I mean, well, there certainly wasn't conversations saying, you go get your. Get your degree and you go get your career. Don't you dare marry young. And certainly she wasn't proactively steering you in her direction.

Leah Young [00:37:01] No.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] Okay.

Leah Young [00:37:02] No. No, not at all. So I went to uvsc, and I'm sitting there in the classroom, you know, the first six months, and I'm just thinking, I want to. I would love to become a midwife or I would love to be a doctor, but I can't, because that was the script I was given, that was the programming. And so I thought, I don't know if I want to be a nurse, because I saw the lack of involvement that I thought that they had in the birthing process. So I decided to leave college and I moved to California. I moved to San Francisco, and I became a birth and postpartum doula. And I worked in San Francisco. In Los Angeles was where I met Cody, and a little bit in New York doing that. But it really was because I knew I'd get married and have kids. And I wanted that time, like, I wanted some time to do what I love, to empower women to have. Be a part of their birthing experiences. But, you know, as I. As I reflect back, I realized that had that programming not been in place, I would have probably pursued a different, you know, educational pursuit.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] And tell us what doulas do.

Leah Young [00:38:11] So doulas are women who help other women and couples have. Primarily have natural childbirth experiences. So we help. We come in before the birth, and we teach the husband about supporting the wife and we understand what she wants and her birth plan. Doulas often teach birthing classes like the Bradley Method, which I did do. And so, yeah, I was a teenager who had never had babies, and I started my own business, and it was called Bright Beginnings. And I moved out and I was never worried about it. I mean, I left on my own. I knew no one. And I went and I became a doula and I started a business and I had a great time. I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:38:53] But that wasn't to build a career. No, that was just to make some money. Before you met somebody, it wasn't even about money.

Leah Young [00:39:01] It was just about passion. Like, I really wanted to be a part of the birthing process and empowering women. And I knew that my time was short because I was gonna get married and have babies, and so I just wanted to get out and do it. And I knew that if I waited and became, like, a doctor or something, then by the time I got my degree, I would be married and having babies, so I couldn't work. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] So that's kind of your mom's influence, even if it was kind of unconscious.

Guest [00:39:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] Now, I, I. Because I've talked to you, I know that you. You sometimes were a doula for people of note. Do you. Are you able to share any of that, or is that.

Leah Young [00:39:42] Oh, yeah, I can share. Yeah. I. I was a doula for Al Pacino and Beverly d' Angelo and, you know, some other people.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] But because. But because she didn't watch tv. She's never seen the Godfather, so she personally knows Al Pacino, but she hasn't yet seen the Godfather, and she didn't

Cody Young [00:40:04] know who Al Pacino was when he hired her.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] So what was that like working for Al Pacino?

Leah Young [00:40:11] I just. I don't know. I treated everyone the same. When I would have, like, a celebrity couple or client, I would never, ever take pictures with them. I do have pictures with babies, their babies, but. Because I never wanted them to feel that way with me. Right. So we would, you know, sit in the nursery. You know, we went out to New York because he was shooting there and I was with them.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] Do you know which movie?

Leah Young [00:40:34] No.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] Okay.

Leah Young [00:40:36] I don't think I talked to him about that. You know, but we'd hang out in the nursery and talk. And I don't. I didn't see him that way. Just like, kind of my friendship with you, like, I just. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] It's just like, there's a difference. We would.

Leah Young [00:40:49] We would chat. We would chat and, you know, we'd sit in the rockers together and he'd hang out in his boxers and we'd talk about nothing about movies. I've never seen one of his movies.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] That's amazing.

Leah Young [00:41:01] But Beverly d' Angelo was his partner. And that's the babies. Yeah. At the time. And the babies, the twins were born and from her. And I've seen some of her movies.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] Now she's an actress, too. I've never heard of her.

Leah Young [00:41:15] Beverly d'. Angelo. She's like National Lampoon Staycation.

Cody Young [00:41:18] She's Chevy Chase's wife in the.

John Dehlin [00:41:20] Okay.

Cody Young [00:41:21] In the National Lampoon movies.

Guest [00:41:23] Fun. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:25] Okay. So you were a doula up until the point where you met Cody?

Leah Young [00:41:29] Yes, I was. I was a doula in Los Angeles and very. Attending the singles ward every single week and loved it. And that was my social circle. Those were my friends, those were. That was my tribe, and that's where I met Cody.

John Dehlin [00:41:45] All right. Anything else you want to say about your story?

Leah Young [00:41:48] Yeah, I think that's probably the less interesting part. But, yeah, just. I was Mormon, was just in my blood, you know, I mean, all my. I come from a woolly line and, you know, they're well known in Mormon pioneer heritage and in. Involved in polygamy. And, you know, all my aunts and uncles are devout in the faith. Everybody I knew, really, except for my. My dad and. And his family.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] So you were. You were living the Mormon dream and loving it?

Leah Young [00:42:24] Yeah, for the most part, I would say totally loving it. And as I got older and as I went out, I. It became more and more of a safety net for me. So as a kid, it was just the culture. As I moved out and as I observed the world differently, I actually came to love it much more because I saw, as someone who strives to live in an intentional way and strives to parent intentionally, I saw that there were some significant benefits. Right. I felt there were significant benefits for me. And so that really, when I moved out and I left Utah is when I really clung more onto the church. Right. Because that was my safe place. That was. That was my home. That was my upbringing in this happy valley. And so I would say that was when I really became on my own independently, like convicted Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:43:21] Right.

Leah Young [00:43:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] And during any of those years, did you ever have big doubts? Big. Like the cracks of a faith crisis, exposed to doubters or anti Mormon literature or any of that stuff?

Leah Young [00:43:33] Never.

John Dehlin [00:43:34] No.

Leah Young [00:43:34] No. I couldn't have even fathomed that anything like that existed.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] Okay.

Leah Young [00:43:38] No.

John Dehlin [00:43:39] All right. Should we switch to Cody?

Guest [00:43:41] Yeah.

Cody's Mormon Childhood and Teen Years

John Dehlin [00:43:43] All right, Cody, tell us about your Mormon upbringing.

Cody Young [00:43:49] Can I make a comment about something I said before?

John Dehlin [00:43:51] I do.

Cody Young [00:43:52] As she was talking, I was thinking about how beautiful it was. You were talking about your father and how she and her siblings in their adult years have reached out to him and helped to heal those wounds and to turn that pain and that void into something beautiful. And it's really been, for me and for our kids, really wonderful to see that, to see how she and both of her siblings have helped to heal that. And it's sort of parallels, if you will. You know, it's that journey from pain to joy, from fear to joy, from emptiness to happiness. That it's been beautiful. So. Well, Leah mentioned that she is from the wooly line. Right. So I'm a descendant of Brigham Young. I'm a direct descendant of Lorenzo Dow, who is Brigham's brother. I was born in Utah, Sandy, Utah.

Guest [00:44:51] And

Cody Young [00:44:54] I'm the oldest of all the children. And after the third child, my parents divorced and I moved to Southern California, where I grew up. So I grew up in San Diego in the home of my mother and her husband, my stepfather.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] So also a child of divorce.

Cody Young [00:45:12] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:45:13] And again, you were how old?

Cody Young [00:45:14] I was six or seven.

John Dehlin [00:45:15] Okay, so what was that like? We were too young to know or remember.

Cody Young [00:45:22] No, I do have some memories. I have some traumatic, emotionally painful memories of the realization of what was happening. I remember sitting on the porch and crying because what was happening inside was not that there was. I don't recall any yelling or anything like that, but just the knowledge that our family was breaking up. I remember sitting there crying and being so. So hurt and scared. So, yeah, myself, my brother, and then my sister who followed the three of us grew up in San Diego with my mother and stepfather. And my father, also remarried, stayed in Utah, in Sandy, for many years.

John Dehlin [00:46:10] And I can't imagine how your dad could have been super active in your life if he's in a totally different city state. And I don't want to project that, but if that's true, then both of you grew up children of a divorce with a dad who wasn't able to be as active.

Cody Young [00:46:26] Yeah. Yeah. There was certainly some pain and some emptiness. Now, I had a stepfather who did his best, who is a really wonderful man who did his best to step in and fulfill the role to the best he could. He would coach my soccer and baseball team, and he was there at all the games and, you know, as involved as really I asked him to be or wanted him to be. So I certainly didn't have the void or the pain to the degree or in the sense that Leah did. But, yeah, I lived, you know, a thousand miles away from my father. We would go every summer, we'd go for a month to Utah and spend that month with him in his home with his. Both my stepmother and. And their kids. They subsequently had six kids. My. My mother and stepfather had two more children. So I'm the oldest of 11 sibling or of 11 children. I have 10 siblings in. In two separate families.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] So you spend summers with your summers with my father. The whole summer.

Cody Young [00:47:28] A month. We'd go for a month, usually. Okay. And it was hard. It was hard as A young, you know, 8, 9, 10, 11 year old boy. School gets out and it was hard to go to Utah where I didn't have any friends. My father is a self employed plumber, hardest working man that I know. And so when I would go in the summers, I spent a lot of time on the job with him. I'd go and sit on, sit on the white bucket and watch or we'd talk while he was doing jobs. And so I spent a lot of my summer doing that with him. And he loved that because we got to spend time. But as a boy, you can imagine it wasn't the most enjoyable way to spend your summer at times. So that was hard. But I had a really close cousin. All my extended family, most of them were still in Utah. So I had cousins and one in particular that I would try and spend a lot of time with, she was a real good friend and we'd spend summers hanging out and she'd take me to be with her friends. And I remember especially as I got closer into middle school and high school, I remember just loving the time that I'd spent with her and her friends because her and her friends were doing things that seemed so fun and so wholesome and so different from what my friends were doing and my high school friends down in California. And I remember loving that, you know, like we'd go and late at night go by ice blocks and sled down a grassy hill. You know, it's like I'd never heard of such a thing, ice blocking and just things like that. Sort of idyllic in a sense for me, but had some great times. But there was certainly some challenges to that, you know, that summer in Utah. So yeah, so grew up in Southern California, in San Diego all through high school. My mother and stepfather. Our home was in a way similar to Leah's in the sense that we didn't, we didn't do a lot of the typical, we didn't have a lot of the typical Mormon traditions. We didn't, we would say prayers, we certainly prayed at meals. Family prayer was kind of hit or miss. I don't recall much family home evening. I don't recall scripture study as a family. We were very active and involved in sports. I played sports all growing up and so that often conflicted with mutual and weekday church activities. So I wasn't really involved in that. And the boys that were in my, my age group weren't involved in the same things. I don't have recollections of us having much in common. So we never really gelled. And so I felt a little bit because I wasn't going to mutual and I was involved in these other things. I didn't have that friendship with boys in the church. In our ward and Sunday attendance, we were fairly regular. But I have fond memories of us kids trying to stay real quiet Sunday morning in hopes that mom and dad would sleep in so late that we couldn't go to church. So, you know, it was a little bit hit or miss in terms of our church attendance. I'm sure at times we were better than others, but we weren't, you know, every Sunday, rain or shine, in the pews five minutes before sacrament. I did go to seminary for the first two years of high school and even into part of my junior year. And then I stopped. So it was early morning seminary. I didn't graduate from seminary. My high school, we were certainly a minority, big high school in San Diego and you know, there were, I don't know, maybe 15 or 20 of us in the, in the school, 25 maybe. So I remember feeling unique. Everybody knew I was Mormon and I relished that opportunity to be an example. Right. Everybody knew I didn't drink, I didn't smoke, I didn't do drugs, I was the designated driver. Because unlike Leah's upbringing, you know, there certainly were, there was alcohol and there were drugs in high school. Not, you know, my immediate circle of friends, not, not really, but certainly it was around. So yeah, I was offered all of that in high school and, but never, you know, never felt tempted. It was never a challenge for me. Even though I was maybe a little more lukewarm in terms of my church attendance and devotion as manifested by, you know, maybe how I thought I was in church, I still felt in my heart like it was part of just who I am. It was in my DNA and you know, certainly part of my heritage. So that was, that was never, never a challenge for me to be tempted or to partake of those things.

John Dehlin [00:52:16] Any, any, anything you want to say about, like your testimony in those teenage years? Yeah. Was it just. You always knew it was true? Was it you wondered, you wanted to get your own testimony and pray about it? You weren't sure. What was your testimony like pre mission?

Cody Young [00:52:35] That's a great question. I don't, I certainly don't in high school have any recollection of having that moment where I just wanted to know for myself. I, towards the end of high school became less active and my parents, my mother and stepfather were ones that didn't force me to go. If I didn't want to go. And so towards the end of high school, I wasn't attending church. All that much of my own desire. Right. And that continued after high school, into the early college years, that I would say I fell away from the church. I didn't. It wasn't that I had issues with the church. It just. It didn't light my fire. It didn't. I wasn't. I didn't feel passionate about it. I didn't feel. I would have. I didn't deny it. It was still part of me. It was still my heritage, but it wasn't. I just. I just didn't have a desire to be involved in it. And it wasn't really doctrinal or anything. Looking back, I would say I didn't have. I didn't have a real strong testimony, and I didn't read the Book of Mormon in high school, you know, so I didn't meet some of those milestones as a. As a teenager and high school student. So, yeah, my testimony, I would. I would say, was not real strong.

John Dehlin [00:53:46] Okay.

Leah Young [00:53:47] Which is so interesting to hear because all of that changed very dramatically.

John Dehlin [00:53:51] Yeah, that's.

Leah Young [00:53:52] I think you're shocked. I think you're sitting here shocked because you, you know, our story after that.

John Dehlin [00:53:57] Well, Cody's mission was very different.

Leah Young [00:53:59] Well, there was a big change.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] Yeah. Okay, really quick, before we jump to your mission.

Cody Young [00:54:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] Any word of wisdom or law of chastity shame you want to talk about? Because that's sometimes a really big part of a Mormon use, upbringing, sometimes not.

Leah Young [00:54:15] I.

Cody Young [00:54:17] No word of wisdom problems. The law of chastity. I had a. I had a. I had a girlfriend in high school, and, yeah, there were some times when I had to meet with the bishop, and there was certainly some difficult conversations to be had. And

John Dehlin [00:54:37] did that weigh on you a lot, or did you kind of just brush it off?

Cody Young [00:54:40] Yeah, yeah. No, it was really hard. I didn't. I didn't. I don't know if I internalized it maybe as much as I would have, you know, at a more mature age in terms of what exactly was happening, in terms of identifying it as shame rather than guilt, but I certainly felt an immense amount of guilt and. Yeah. And I certainly had to work through those things, but at the same time, I never reflected on. Is there a problem here? No. The problem was me.

Cody's Decision to Serve a Mission

John Dehlin [00:55:14] Okay. And if your testimony wasn't red hot as a teenager growing up in California, what made you decide to serve a mission?

Cody Young [00:55:25] So I left for college, went to Pepperdine University.

John Dehlin [00:55:28] Now, that's Different. Why didn't you go to byu?

Cody Young [00:55:31] I didn't want to because everybody at high school said, oh, you're a Mormon. You're going to go to byu. So I didn't even apply.

John Dehlin [00:55:36] And tell us what Pepperdine's like. Pepperdine, good school, right?

Cody Young [00:55:39] It's a small private college, about 3,500 students, 4,000 undergrad students. It's a. It's a. It is a. It's associated with the Church of Christ. And so it is a religious school. I took religion classes there as part of the curriculum.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] Did you have to get a scholarship? I'm imagining.

Cody Young [00:56:01] Yep, I did. I did receive an academic scholarship, and so that helped to make it more feasible financially. But it was good. It was. It was a great experience. I really loved that experience of going to Pepperdine. I liked the smaller atmosphere of it. It was a dry campus. So no alcohol on campus, no fraternity or sorority houses. And I like that. That was kind of the environment that I relished, was that sort of an environment. And it was a great academic experience for me to have that opportunity. So I'm about. I'm in my sophomore year, and I'm still in this relationship with my girlfriend from high school. In fact, she's at the same university. And then it became evident that it wasn't going to work. Now, to that point, I had convinced myself that I didn't need to be Mormon to be happy. I didn't need to marry in the temple to be happy. But as time went on and I started to think about, you know, what is the end game of this relationship? It started to weigh a little bit more heavily on me, like, what do I want from my kids? Do I want my kids to be raised in the church? And I did. And so then as we started to discuss that topic, which had been somewhat of a taboo topic through the early part of our relationship, that contributed to the relationship, in part. At least in part, it contributed to that relationship ending. Well, when it ended, my future that I had in my mind, changed drastically. Right. So then I found myself at somewhat of a crossroads where I said, well, what. What do I want to do? You know what I want to do? I remember being home in San Diego, at my home, and contemplating this. Do I want to serve a mission? And do I want to. Do I want to get back to the church? And I remember laying on the couch and listening to Janice Perry songs. And I remember, which one do you remember?

John Dehlin [00:58:14] Oh, gosh, is that the Serving with Joy?

Cody Young [00:58:17] I don't remember. I'm sorry, I don't remember which song was, but it was. I remember laying late at night, everybody else was asleep and I'm just contemplating this. Is this what I want? I remember just feeling, you know, so strongly that, that this is what I should do. And that for me was a turning point. So I, I decided, yep, this is what I'm going to do. I went back to college, finished out the year and got involved in institute for that time and started going back to church because I hadn't been going at all that first probably year and a half of college and just making the necessary changes to get ready and, and to leave on a mission. And that for me was that whole process of deciding this is what I want. This is how I want my future to look. I want it to involve the church. And so that's how I ended up making the decision to serve Mission.

Guest [00:59:17] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Guest [00:59:52] Take your time, clear your mind There is a light beyond the shore Calling to you More, once more this is the life you're making There is a love for the taking it's all right these guys don't have to be you Baby, you're somebody new when the lion's withdraw in front of you it's all right to be you. It's all right to be you Shame, disbelief It says who you want to be There is a wise part of you.

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 1045

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. My sense is you kind of got turbocharged on your mission. Is that true?

Cody Young [00:00:54] So I decided to serve a mission. Still hadn't read the Book of Mormon all the way through. I decided that's something that I need to do. So I read the Book of Mormon all the way through, actually finished it in the MTC and was called to serve in the Chilean to Fagasta mission. And so I went to the mtc. I had had, I had. I had studied Spanish in high school, living in Southern California, had had ample opportunities working in restaurants all throughout high school and college to interact with Spanish speakers. So I had some, some, some experience with Spanish. So I spent a little bit less time in the mtc. But yeah, my mission for me was absolutely transformative. It was the time when the fire was lit within my heart with respect to my testimony, the church, my desire to live the gospel to the best of my ability.

Mission Experiences and Lessons Learned

John Dehlin [00:01:56] Talk about your mission president a little bit.

Cody Young [00:01:59] Oh, I love my mission president.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] Oh, you had two.

Cody Young [00:02:02] I had two.

John Dehlin [00:02:02] Okay.

Cody Young [00:02:04] When I, when I read your second one, was it.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] Which was the intense one? Were they both intense or the second one?

Cody Young [00:02:10] Yeah, yeah. So we, about halfway through my mission, we were asked to run. We were asked to run from house to house, from door to door, to go as fast as we could, to meet as many people as we could, to talk to as many people as we could about the gospel and the church. And that's what I did. We ran for about the last year of my mission, we ran from door to door and from appointment to appointment. We didn't have bikes, didn't have cars. So that's how we got around.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] Yeah, like, I don't know if people understand, maybe missionaries will, but, you know. Yeah, it's intense to always be tracking, but at least you get the chance to pleasure leisurely walk between doors or between buildings. I'm trying to imagine. And there was a missionary on my mission in Arizona named Elder Farmer who was just so intense. He was like this farmer from Idaho, maybe getting his name Wrong. But anyway, it didn't matter. He would run from door to door in the hot Arizona sun because that's for him what it meant to be an excellent missionary. But I can't imagine all missionaries in the mission being asked to run between houses and between doors for their entire mission. What was that like?

Cody Young [00:03:23] Exhausting. But it was intense. I mean, it's, you know, now that I think back, you know, the more you ask of people, the more zealous they become, you know, the more. And not for everybody. That certainly didn't work for everybody, but it did for me. And I mean, I felt like the harder I was working, the more tired I was. You know, in Chile, they have the. There's the afternoon siesta time where after lunch and lunch is the big meal, and after lunch people take naps. Stores close down for two hours and there's not much happening. And I remember my companion and I in one particular. We were in the city of Iquique and we decided we weren't going to. And we had it. So we had either an hour and a half or a two hour break in the middle of the day. We stayed out later at night, but. But in the middle of the day, we had that break where we were supposed to go back and study our scriptures. Turns out we often study scriptures until our heads fell into the book. And we passed out in the middle of the day because we were already tired. But I remember making the decision, we're not gonna, we're not gonna take a break. We're gonna, we're just gonna, we're gonna go to lunch and then we're gonna keep working. We're gonna work through the siesta and if people aren't out, we'll just, we'll go to the next door. And that's how we actually met and taught and ended up baptizing just a beautiful, wonderful family, all five of them. So there were tangible blessings from those sacrifices, like going above and beyond what the mission president was asking us to try and accomplish those goals.

John Dehlin [00:04:53] Shout out to Mark Crego, who says that he served in Antofagasta, Chile, in the mid-70s, long before it was its own mission. He says, driest place on earth.

Cody Young [00:05:05] Driest desert in the world. Yeah, I remember one day we were out tracting in Antofagasta and it started to sprinkle and people were like scurrying, you know, and there was this movement of people everywhere and we were going, what is going on? So we finally asked somebody, they said, oh, yeah, last time it Rained was six years ago and there were just massive landslides, mudslides, because there's no vegetation on the hillsides and so the mud just slides down the mountainside. So every time they get a little bit of rain, that's their main concern. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] Also shout out to Roger Hendricks, who's watching, who served as a mission president in Chile. Did you guys have, like. I'm thinking about my mission. You know, Guatemala City north was the second highest baptizing mission in the world next to the Chile Vinha del Mar mission. We covered with an episode with Dr. Ted Lyon many, many years ago how Chile had this baptism problem where they were baptizing kids and people off tombstones and, you know, missions with hundreds, if not low, thousands of baptisms per month, but a massive retention problem that ended up causing Chile to. The church to close like 30 to 50 stakes in Chile. And it's, it's. I don't think that the church in Chile has ever really rebounded from those decades of low quality baptisms. Not that the people are low quality, but just the people weren't converted and they fell away as soon as they were joined. But they joined in such large numbers. There were wards with 10 or 20 people and massive inactivity rates all across the country that ended up causing a big collapse. Did you get to see any of that while you were there?

Cody Young [00:06:47] I did see some of the effects of that, for sure. I remember early on in my mission a couple of experiences. One time I was out, I was a young missionary, maybe in my second area, and one of the assistants to the president was out doing splits with me and my companions. So I was on splits with one of the APs, and we were teaching somebody, we were just knocking doors and we got into a home, we sat down, we were teaching these people, just met him and he challenges them to be baptized. But the way he challenged them to be baptized, he said, have you ever been baptized by immersion like Jesus was? And they said no. And they said, well, would you like to follow Jesus example by being baptized? And they said, yes. And then he said, okay, when would you like to do it? And I remember feeling like, wait a second, this is not how it's supposed to work. These people don't know about the Book of Mormon. They don't know about Joseph Smith. They certainly don't have a testimony of him. How can we commit them to be baptized? And unfortunately, and this is the assistant to the president.

Guest [00:07:47] Right.

Cody Young [00:07:48] And unfortunately, I didn't have the courage to talk to my mission president. About it and ask him why that was happening. But I did promise myself that I would never baptize a person who I didn't feel like at least had manifested to me that they had a testimony of the core doctrines of the church, that I wasn't out here for numbers. I personally really wanted to help people have a testimony of the church because I believed that that would bring them happiness. So that. That just didn't sit well with me. And I did, on occasion, run into people, you know, contacting. I would run into people who had been baptized after playing soccer with the missionaries and who are quite angry in their adult years for, you know, what had happened to them when they were a youth. So I did run into that. Not a lot, but from time to time, I would say by the time I got to Chile and my mission, much of those problems with the soccer, baseball, baptisms, if you will, were no longer around. You heard rumors of missionaries who would go to the cemetery and get data off of tombstones and enter those, but I didn't see. I didn't see much evidence of that currently happening. We had a really. Our mission president was very strict. He raised the standards that people would have to meet to be able to be baptized. They had to go to church an extra week above what the church required. And he really wanted us to baptize families and men and not just children, if we could at all avoid it. So anytime we baptized a woman, we had to have express permission of her husband, but to be baptized, these sorts of things. So I think the effort and the desire was there. But certainly, like you said, the inactivity rate was such a problem. I mean, you had large geographical and numerical wards that were just attendance wise. So small.

John Dehlin [00:09:55] Like what average attendance to some of these small wards.

Cody Young [00:09:58] Oh, some of these small wards, you know, 30, 40 people. And the roles.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] That's a branch.

Cody Young [00:10:03] Yeah, yeah. But the roles are, you know, on the rolls, there's hundreds of members. Right. And so that was, yeah, certainly a challenge. And I never wanted to contribute to that. You know, I. And I sincerely believe that most of us missionaries who were there at that time didn't want to contribute to that. That we were, at least in my experience, almost all the missionaries that I came in contact with or served with, we were on that same page of wanting to really do good and help strengthen the church and not just baptize.

Leah Young [00:10:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] So if you had to describe kind of what the mission did to you and what it meant to you, how would you summarize it?

Cody Young [00:10:45] I would Say, coming home from my mission, I was a changed person. And that's the best way I can describe it. I went out with a good desire, but not a very strong testimony. And I came home, in my opinion, the strongest and most important convert of my mission. And in my heart, I was convinced that the church and the plan of salvation and the gospel as set forth by the LDS Church was the one and only way to eternal happiness, the one and only way to get back to Heavenly Father with my family. So there was no doubt in my heart.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] Right. And even now, I see you getting a little misty eyed about your mission. Is that right?

Cody Young [00:11:36] I have very tender feelings for my mission. You know, the church has given me a lot in my life, and my mission is one of those things that gave me a lot. It taught me a lot about myself, taught me a lot about people. I learned to love, I learned to serve in ways that I had never had opportunity to do. And that, for me, was really transformative. And I firmly believe that in so many ways, myself and our family are still reaping the benefits of those lessons that I learned and that were taught to me on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] Did your mission president give you any instruction about getting married?

Cody Young [00:12:15] Hit the ground running. That's what he said. I don't recall specific. Specific instruction about marriage, but that was. Hit the ground running was. It was a universal hit the ground running in every sense. You know, get back to school, start dating, get on with life. So, yeah, okay. I loved my mission so much. I extended. I didn't want to go home. I asked to stay longer, and he was gracious to grant me more time serving. And so I just. I loved it.

Leah Young [00:12:46] And he was the AP on his mission.

Cody Young [00:12:48] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:12:49] And they flew on a plane, right?

Cody Young [00:12:51] Yeah. So my mission was about the size of California geographically. So when we traveled, we had to travel by plane with the president.

John Dehlin [00:13:00] That's fancy. All right. So what was life like once you. Once you got home and take us up to the point where you meet Leah.

Leah's Mission and Returning Home

Cody Young [00:13:12] Okay, so I came home. Now. I had finished. I might have misspoken earlier. I had finished three years of college, actually, before I left on my mission. And so I came home and all of my friends from college had since graduated and moved on. And so I still had a year left back up at Pepperdine. I came home in the summer, which was a hard. It was hard, just hard, you know, coming home from your mission and having to adjust. And I was bored and didn't have enough time to get a job before I had to Go back to school. So I waited out those weeks and then headed back to Malibu, was able to find an apartment off campus with a couple of friends. And one of them was lds, one was not. And so we lived actually in Brentwood, California, which was really fun. And I commuted into Pepperdine for that last year. And while I was in Brentwood, that's when I was attending the Los Angeles First Ward, which is one of the singles wards in la. We met right there at the temple grounds. There's a chapel right on the back of the Los Angeles Temple grounds. And so, yeah, my first Sunday back, they have a new member meeting after the block. And so I went to that meeting to meet the bishopric and I. I don't know, there were probably a dozen of us, maybe more, that were in that meeting, new members of the ward. And I met Leah Lewis for the first time.

John Dehlin [00:14:46] That's your maiden name at that meeting.

Leah Young [00:14:48] Yeah, Lewis. Well, that's my dad's. Yeah, I took my dad's name. My mom's Wooly, but yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] Okay. Okay, I'm just going to read a few comments just because we've got several comments from our listeners about missions. Stevie writes, the same kind of thing went on in Brazil. Challenge and commit no matter what. Shake my head. That's from Stevie. Angela writes, I was a missionary in Hawaii. We were told to challenge them to baptism on the doorstep. Steve writes, I served in Anaheim. We were told to challenge people to be baptized at first contact and not spend a lot of time with people who weren't ready to commit to baptism in the first few minutes. He writes, oh, my gosh. Jenny writes, my uncle was accused of stealing by his mission president and then dishonorably sent home because he refused to play this horrible baptize whoever you can game. He pretty much left the church at that point and never looked back. Thanks for sharing, Jenny. So sorry Tear about your uncle. Mark Crego writes, hey, Mark, it was in the mid-70s, during my mission under Bradford that there was a phenomenal push to just baptize. We were required to baptize at least 10 people per month per companionship to meet goals. We often did whatever it took to bring in the numbers. This involved a lot of manipulation and at the time there wasn't a strong requirement to actually attend church. We did not falsify numbers, look at tombstones or stuff like that. But I can tell you that most of the top baptizing missionaries, converts weren't seen more than a few weeks after they were baptized. So, yeah, this is something We've covered before on Mormon stories, and it's something that I think the church is suffering for now. If you look at Latin America today, Latin America used to be sort of like a really strong growth area for the church. And I think that the market has become a bit saturated, and you're seeing places like Mexico shrink and collapse wards and stakes for the first time. And I think Brazil and other South American countries are starting to pay the penalty very heavily for these aggressive baptism practices that have been going on for at least since the early 60s, since the baseball baptism stuff that's covered in Sunstone. Okay, so let's. Let's jump to your love story. So who wants to. Who wants to talk about the love?

How Leah and Cody Met and Got Married

Leah Young [00:17:37] So, yeah, we. We met in the Los Angeles singles ward. I mean, we'll just kind of go briefly over this part. We had a short engagement. We both kind of felt prompted in different ways that, you know, we. We should get married. I mean, I don't know how in depth you want to go into this, but basically from the time we met to the time we got mayor, we met in August.

Cody Young [00:18:05] We were engaged the next summer.

Leah Young [00:18:07] But we didn't start dating in August because it wasn't until I got back from New York.

Cody Young [00:18:10] Yeah, we started dating in the spring.

Leah Young [00:18:12] We dated in the spring. We got engaged in August, July. Okay, well, you. I think you should do this part.

Cody Young [00:18:20] Got engaged in July and married in November.

Leah Young [00:18:21] So typical Mormon.

Cody Young [00:18:25] At that time, I was in my last year of college and Leah was out in Los Angeles working as a doula. And, yeah, we were. We were friends and acquaintances for the first seven or so months that we knew each other. And. And I actually was preparing to leave after college. I was going to move back to Utah. I was going to take an internship up in Utah doing medical research to try and prepare for medicine. And so I was planning to leave. And shortly before then, in April or so, we started dating. So when I graduated, it was, you know, we were going to say goodbye and I was going to leave to Utah. And I just. I had this feeling that I should stay, that I should see where this relationship would go. And I wanted to see what possibility there was. And so I expressed that to Leah. Of course, at that time, my lease was up and I didn't have a place to stay. And, yeah, it was right before he

Leah Young [00:19:25] was going to move.

Cody Young [00:19:26] I was just maybe a week or two before I was going to leave that I made this decision to not take the internship, but to stay in. In Los Angeles and be with Her. And so I found a different place to live and stayed, and we dated and ended up getting engaged and married in November.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] So, Cody, what did you love about Leah? What were the things you loved and that drew you to her, not just in terms of your feelings for her, but also as a prospective wife and mother of your children?

Cody Young [00:19:57] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think that in. Anybody who's listened to this point in the interview can tell what a strong individual Leah is, how passionate she is. She is passionate about relationships, and she's passionate about being a good mother and a good spouse. And I could tell that early on. I knew she was going to be a fantastic mother to her children someday. And she was clearly driven. She had her own business. I mean, as a teenager, she had left college, moved across the country and to other parts of the country, you know, helping women give birth when she'd never given birth herself. She was clearly motivated and driven and confident, and she was. She was faithful. She was in church every Sunday, you know, just a devoted individual and lovely as a person, just in every way. Personality, every way. She just. She had my heart.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] You get misty eyed again, what's that about? All right, Leah, how about you? What did you love about Cody?

Leah Young [00:21:05] Yeah, well, Cody was very humble, and that was really attractive. He was. He was driven, but sort of no one would maybe know it unless they took the time to get to know him. I remember once we were. It was maybe after his graduation, I did attend his graduation. We weren't necessarily dating at the time, maybe in the beginning of our dating, and I was at his house in San Diego later, and like, I was going through a box and. No, it was. I can't remember, but just seeing all these awards he had received and like, he'd never told me about any of these things. And just he. He was just a very kind, patient, compassionate, quietly driven, like, very unassuming, very sort of almost modest. Very.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] You wanted that. You liked that?

Leah Young [00:22:02] Yeah, I thought it was. I mean, that was attractive to me. You know, like, you don't need to kind of put it all out there. You know, he had nothing to prove. You know, he had nothing to prove, but yet he was super devoted to the church. And that was attractive to me because I, growing up in the environment that I did, with my sort of background, I wanted to write a new story that was so important to me. Like, my. I never wanted my kids to feel some of the ways I had felt. And I wanted, even though I'd never necessarily been taught by my mom, like, check the boxes I'd been taught by my Mormon culture to check the boxes, and I wanted to check the boxes. I knew that I would marry a returned missionary. I knew that I would get married in the temple. And I knew that Cody was very strong and very committed to the gospel, and that was really, really important to me. And so, yeah, those were some of the things. And he was always just lovely about his family and kind about his mother. And my mom always said, marry somebody who's kind to their mother.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] And Cody was kind to his mom.

Leah Young [00:23:15] Yeah, Cody was kind to everyone. Everybody.

Early Marriage and Temple Experiences

John Dehlin [00:23:22] Okay, so what? When a Mormon couple gets married, especially an orthodox Mormon couple, I guess I'm imagining there are explicit and unexplicit terms of the marriage. And this is going to come in later as we talk about your faith crisis and your marriage, but I think it'd be fun to just talk about. What do you both imagine were the explicit and the inexplicit pillars or foundations or understandings of what getting married meant in terms of behavior and belief and roles, etc. Do you understand the question?

Cody Young [00:24:06] It's hard to remember back that far to know exactly what I understood as explicit and just understood pillars. Certainly there was the understanding that I would work and earn for a family and that I would be committed to do so in a way that she wouldn't have to do that and that she could be home and that she wouldn't have to do what her mom did and be a providing mother. And so that was certainly an understood. I don't know if we ever had that specific conversation, but it was understood that that's the way it would go, that we would have children. That was certainly a part of the agreement. The exact number, I don't think was in the initial days, part of that agreement, but. And that the gospel would be a foundation upon which we would build our home and our family and that we would raise our kids in the church. We would do our best to be faithful, to provide that gospel example for them such that they would be inspired to pursue the gospel in their lives and to pass it on to their children. So certainly those, as I recall, were absolute mutual understandings that we had.

John Dehlin [00:25:26] And how about you, Leah?

Leah Young [00:25:27] Yeah, I think those are the most important things, right? Because it's like, well, if we have that, then everything's gonna work out. So I felt like we had the most important things. You know, maybe we'd only known each other for a couple months, but he checked the boxes and he was a great man. But. But truth be told, if he hadn't served a mission, we wouldn't have been married. You know, so it's like he could have been a great guy, but if he was not a devout, believing returned missionary, we wouldn't have been married. So I mean, that's why I say you check the boxes. And Cody was, I mean, it's so interesting to hear him talk about how he wasn't even attending church for a time because that is not the Cody that I knew.

John Dehlin [00:26:13] No, the Cody you knew.

Leah Young [00:26:15] The Cody I knew attended church on vacation in Hawaii. The Cody I knew on our honeymoon did not want to spend any money or eat anywhere on Sunday in Hawaii. The Cody I knew was, it is black and white, right and wrong, there's good and bad and there is gray. Was not much a part of, of the Cody I knew, you know, so

John Dehlin [00:26:47] I can't, I see this a lot where there's an individual who comes from a broken home where maybe there's some gospel related trauma or a mixed faith couple where their parents were mixed faith or you know, there were just, there was turmoil in the home and, and not only is the church a source of comfort and strength for them, but when they get married and kind of make their plan for their life, they're not going to end up like their parents.

Leah Young [00:27:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] And so they're, the way they live the gospel is this really strict, committed, devout brand of extra turbocharged Mormonism. Because I'm not going to get divorced. I'm not going to have my kids go through what I went through. I'm not going to ever cheat, I'm not going to ever be this unfaithful. And so I'm going to be as super Mormon as Mormons are. I'm going to, I'm going to turbocharge that. Do you think either of you maybe were motivated by your broken homes and your suboptimal, non idyllic Mormon upbringings where you're going to do it right and you're going to bring an extra intensity to it?

Cody Young [00:27:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:58] I don't mean to project on you.

Cody Young [00:27:59] No, absolutely. I think our religiosity, our devotion to the gospel was in my opinion, an insurance against divorce. Right. Like that was the way we, like neither of us wanted to head down the road of divorce ever. And so the best way to prevent that was to, you know, be as faithful together as we could in the gospel and follow the plan, follow the blueprint.

Leah Young [00:28:24] Yeah. And I think from the beginning of starting our family, starting our life, we're intentional people and parenting well was always so important to me. So a big part of that plan really was the gospel, right? It was such a fundamental part of our plan to do the very, very best we could do, to never have our children experience some of the things that we did or have some of the same pains. Like, we just wanted to write a new story for our posterity that could be improved upon what we experienced. And I think we all want to do that, right? No matter what we grow up in. You could grow up in a picturesque family from the outside, and there's still problems, there's still wounds. You always want to climb the ladder one step higher. But I think because of some of the pain that we experienced, we were just so committed to that. And so the church and the gospel was just such an important part of that plan for us.

John Dehlin [00:29:31] So when you talk about that Hawaii, that time in Hawaii where. Where it's Sunday, and, you know, you have the option. You're on honeymoon in Hawaii. You have the option on a Sunday of going out to eat, of spending money. I'm. I'm thinking about what I know about your story, that on the one hand, everything that you said is true. It was super Mormon all the way. On the other hand, you weren't raised with your. Your mother having a man kind of tell her what she should and shouldn't do. And maybe you would sometimes differ from Cody in what. How the gospel would be applied. But now you were living under a patriarchal order. I'm wondering what. What. What that was like in terms of how you felt about that and what type of adjustments and what types of frustrations you met from the very beginning in that regard. Does that make sense? My question?

Leah Young [00:30:28] Yeah, it totally does. And that.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] Yes, talk about that.

Leah Young [00:30:34] So there were. There's a few pivotal times, you know, in our marriage where there's a rumble there, you know, because it was almost like, well, wait a minute, like, I want to be devoted, but I just didn't think that it looked like that. You know what I mean? So it's like our hearts were the same, but what that looked like for him and I sometimes was different. So we were on our honeymoon, and it's Sunday, and it's like, you know, we're in a hotel, and, like, of course we're gonna go eat food on Sunday, right? But, like, that wasn't his plan. And I got to a point where I'm like, I really need to eat food. I'm really hungry, you know, And I just remember sitting, eating food at a restaurant, and him just I just felt so much guilt. And he's like, well, you know, it's okay. You know, we're gonna do it because, I mean, bless his heart, he was just trying to be faithful. But, oh, yeah, you know, we're gonna do this this time because I know you're not feeling well, and I know you. You need to eat food. But I just remember being like, what? But before I forget, we should talk about that. Going through the temple for the first time before we got married, but talk about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:31:52] So.

Leah Young [00:31:52] Well, you know, you grow up your whole life, and you're told, like, it's amazing and it's wonderful. And we would have lessons on the lawn of the temple because we could walk there from the church and we. Or drive, you know, for our lesson time, and we would sit on the grounds of the temple. I remember one such a pivotal, like, looking at the temple and being taught and just like, I can't wait to go in. Like, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna write a new story, and I'm gonna be so devoted, and I'm gonna go to the temple, and it's gonna be this amazing experience. And that's what you're taught your whole life. And, you know, when you're getting married, there's a lot going on. And we lived in Los Angeles. We were getting married in Utah. So I'm, like, trying to plan a wedding from Los Angeles in Utah. There's just. It's a very stressful time. And so we went through the temple the day before, two days, maybe two days before. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, it's almost like you start feeling bad, you know, because it's like, okay, well, my mom's doing this. His stepmom's doing this. He's been doing this for, like, two and a half years.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] Going through the temple.

Leah Young [00:33:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:07] And feeling. You were feeling bad about what?

Leah Young [00:33:10] It was just very uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [00:33:11] What was everything about the temple.

Leah Young [00:33:14] Yeah. Just like, it was so different. It's so different. It's so new.

John Dehlin [00:33:19] I mean, are you. Can you talk about, or are you trying to not talk?

Leah Young [00:33:23] Well, I mean, I want to be safe. Right. But, yeah, I mean, some of the very patriarchal themes, you know, that were uncomfortable to me, that I know. And we could talk about why. I think those have been changed later. But at the time, you know, thinking about my mom, you know, and I'm like, wait a minute. Like, I have to covenant to obey him. Like, how does that feel for women who have an abusive Husband or don't have a husband. Like, all these things are going on in my mind, and the clothing, and it was just feeling very uncomfortable to me. But I couldn't really talk to anybody about that because they were all acting like this is the best thing in the world, right? And I've been taught my whole life is the best thing in the world. So what it does is you feel. I felt. I'll say I felt like it was. And it was sort of the beginning of me, of several experiences, of me feeling like, well, I'm the one who lacks faith or like some of this doesn't make sense. Actually, I'm feeling way more confused now that I've gone through the temple than I was before. It just felt like. It didn't even feel like Mormonism. It just felt like foreign. And then you're getting married in two days, and I remember standing outside just feeling nauseous and just like, this is just weird, you know, But I guess everybody else is doing it. And I guess. I mean, I don't. I just feel a little more confused and I feel uncomfortable. But I guess in time, you know, I guess in time, when I become more righteous or more understanding of the scriptures, maybe, or more in tune with the spirit than I am now, then it'll feel good. It'll. It'll feel right. Then it's just me right now. It doesn't feel right because I'm not maybe spiritually where I need to be. And that sort of began a little bit of a theme, right? And in that, you know, I'm sitting there and we're having that meal, and I'm feeling so. So guilty. But I'm also feeling like, well, wait a minute, you know, but maybe it's me, and maybe, you know, maybe I just need to have more faith or more desire to do the right thing, you know, but as I kind of grew into myself a little more in the marriage, and it wasn't. That was not an overriding theme in our marriage. There were a couple of things, right? There were a couple of things throughout our marriage where it was like, whoa, like, this seems a little extreme, or, oh, this feels uncomfortable to me, or, wow, I'm feeling less than. Because maybe I don't understand this, and that's why I don't feel the same way as you do. I wouldn't say it was an overriding theme, but there were some of those instances. There was one time where I was singing this lullaby I grew up with to my daughter just to sort of explain where Cody was at. And it said, you know, it was this I See the Moon song. And it referred to God a few times in the song. And it was very offensive to Cody because he felt like it was vain repetition and he didn't want me to sing it in our home. And it was so painful for me because it was a song I grew up with. And, you know, we never really were people who went into the bishop ever, but we went into the bishop over that song because I was like. Like, this is wrong. Like, I can sing this song. It's talking about God loving the children.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] Like, how does this song go?

Leah Young [00:36:54] Well, the part that bothered Cody was the part that went. So it went like this. So God bless the moon and God bless me and God bless the one I love. And that was sort of the end of the song. And it said God three times. And that was vain repetition. So he refused to ever sing it.

John Dehlin [00:37:15] Wow, that's like, right out of Joseph Fielding McConkey, like, doctrines of salvation. Right.

Cody Young [00:37:20] So as a missionary, my mission president taught us that we shouldn't. We should. That. That using the Lord's name repeatedly when we pray is vain repetition. And so I said, okay. And so.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] You were intense, Cody.

Cody Young [00:37:38] See, I. I mean, so clearly I missed the mark at times. Clearly.

John Dehlin [00:37:41] No, I'm not attacking you.

Cody Young [00:37:42] No, I know you're not.

John Dehlin [00:37:43] It came out of this sweet desire to be righteous. So you're.

Cody Young [00:37:47] I'm just trying. I'm just trying to do the best I can. I'm absolutely. Like, if my missionary president says, hey, this is the best way to do it, well, I'm going to try and do that the best I can. And again, at times, totally missed the mark. And was. Was unkind to Leah, but. But not intentionally. Just because I feel like I was trying to do what was right.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] Well, you got to please God. I mean, God rules, Right?

Cody Young [00:38:08] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] You were just trying to be faithful to your heavenly Father.

Cody Young [00:38:12] Yeah, yeah. And. And. And it's so regrettable. You know, I look back on it with such embarrassment now, you know, that I had those thoughts or that I acted in those ways, or that when we come out of the temple after she's received her. And it's just the temple experience is, like she said, it's so unlike anything you've experienced in Mormonism up to that point. And here she is two days from getting married.

Guest [00:38:37] Right.

Cody Young [00:38:37] What kind of a position is she in when she's asked if she wants to continue, if she chooses not to continue with the endowment, the wedding that's scheduled in two days. What happens right in the temple?

John Dehlin [00:38:49] Did you have that urge to bail when they give you a chance to bail?

Leah Young [00:38:52] No, I didn't have that urge. It was just that how could I have.

Cody Young [00:38:55] Yeah, it's not really a voluntary choice. I mean, it's quite a pressure situation for a lot of people. Not everybody, but that was her situation. And we come out of the temple and I see how. I mean, I'm like.

John Dehlin [00:39:10] And she's for the listening audience. You were like, what?

Cody Young [00:39:13] Yeah, I was just like, did you last. How was it? Isn't this crazy? She's just like. She's just like, tears, you know, Just like.

John Dehlin [00:39:21] So you were sobbing?

Cody Young [00:39:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:22] It was so hard because it felt summarized so uncomfortable. Yeah.

Cody Young [00:39:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] And your response was so unsympathetic. What was his response? How do you remember it?

Leah Young [00:39:37] I just remember being so. I don't remember exactly his response because I was just like, in my own world, you know?

Cody Young [00:39:43] But I'm scared. I'm scared because I see that she doesn't love it. And so I'm wondering, well, wait a second, what's going on? Is her testimony not what it should be? You know, is she doubting? Here we are, we're getting married in the temple. Is this what's going on? So I'm actually. I could never express at the time, but now looking back, I'm somewhat afraid that this isn't going the way I thought it was going to go, or the way God said it should go, or the way the plan is supposed to happen. She's supposed to come out of the temple beaming, and it's the best experience she's ever had. When the reality is, if I look back, if I'm honest, and I look back to when I was getting ready to go on my mission and took out my endowments, I explicitly remember sitting there with my family in the endowment room thinking, what is going on? Like, this is unlike anything I've ever experienced. Very ritualistic Mormon worship. Sunday Mormon worship is not all that ritualistic. If you go to a Catholic mass, it's much more ritualistic than a Mormon sacrament meeting. Right. And so then to go into the temple, the most holy experience you're going to have, that's so wonderful. And to have those feelings, it's hard. It's really hard. And it was unkind of me to not. Not be able to remember that and to, you know. And it was a pressure situation with the wedding coming up, of course.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] But, Leo, what was it like, from your perspective, to feel his concern.

Leah Young [00:41:10] I think that day I was unaware of his concern.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] You were just flooded.

Leah Young [00:41:14] I would, I would say in our marriage, I did sense that at times and more increasingly towards, towards the, and towards the discovery, if you will. I felt like Cody really, really, really wanted to do the right thing all the time. And so it came from that place. It became a little more problematic over the years, especially as I stepped into my business. Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:45] And we'll talk about that in a second.

Leah Young [00:41:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:47] Okay. Okay. Let me just read a few comments because you really touched a nerve with our listeners. Allison wrote, as you were sharing, as you were sharing your temple experience. Allison wrote, it is uncomfortable to say the least. Christy writes, it's not knowing what you are promising until you are doing it. Just make promises. How is that comfortable? She writes. Rachel writes, I was so unhappy my first time the day before I got married in D.C. and I was literally angry afterward and my parents had to try to calm me down. Kimberly writes, institutional and cultural shaming leading to internalized guilt. This is what I'm hearing from her, meaning you, Heidi Nielsen Packard. Hey, Heidi. She and her husband Josh did an amazing episode. Mormon faith crisis episode. So did Kimberly, by the way. Kimberly's amazing too. Heidi writes, I can so relate to your temple experience. Leah. Amy writes, thank you for describing your first temple visit. This is how I felt when I watched the New Name Noah videos and why I didn't want to get endowed in the first place and haven't. So Amy's watching of New Name Noah videos on YouTube kept her from even getting endowed. That's interesting. Jamie writes, felt the same about the temple. I must not have enough faith to know the mysteries of God. So it made her feel bad. Angie, my husband and I can so relate to Leeah's first temple experience so much. We never got past it and there are just many, many people sharing that same experience. And this is so poignant because in 2019, January, we just learned as Mormons last week that they've made yet another round of very radical changes to the Mormon Temple ceremony. Now, you guys, as awful as your experience was, I went through in, in 88 when you did the, the penalties and you would use hand motions to show different ways that you would kill yourself, be killed if you ever, you know, revealed the signs and tokens. And so it was extremely barbaric and violent. But then by 1990, they had removed that. So that was a big round of changes. You guys came after that. Since then they've made changes where they, they sewed up the sides of the shield in the initiatories. So you weren't touched in naked ways. And, and they've made other changes. And then last week they make these really significant changes where they took out apparently a lot of the stuff where the women have to veil their faces where, where the women have covenants to the husband and the husband covenants to Heavenly Father. Now Eve apparently has more speaking parts than even Satan before Eve spoke less than Satan. And they've listened.

Leah Young [00:44:47] Yeah, the returning and reporting thing is different. Yeah, there's several changes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] Yeah. And I guess I don't want to interrupt your story by talking about our reflections, but, but man, it's taken the church a long time to make those changes, but they have. Future couples won't be experiencing some of the inequity, feminist sort of gender role concerns that you guys would have faced. And I just have to just make that a note because we're in the middle of history being made, as Russell M. Nelson tells us, to take our vitamins and turbocharges. Change in the church. The church is listening.

Leah Young [00:45:31] I wonder how Joseph would feel about that because, you know, he did say that, you know, the temple endowment can never be changed.

John Dehlin [00:45:37] But that's. We'll get to that. Okay, so. All right, so what else about your early years do you want to share? You shared the mission experience. You shared the experience about the Sabbath in Hawaii. Anything you guys want to share about having those young kids and med school and what it was like to be a Mormon in those early years of your marriage?

Raising a Family During Medical School and Residency

Leah Young [00:46:06] Well, Cody was very busy. You know, we had four kids during medical school and residency, and that was a lot. One with special needs, as you mentioned, who was in casts and having surgery and having leg bracing. And so in addition to working insane hours, I mean, when he was in medical school, again, he never studied on Sunday. Never. And he held callings like you were the ward mission leader. And you know, he had some callings that were a little bit, not too intense, but you know, you needed to work on those as much as possible. So he would sometimes be up studying till like 3 or 4am on Sunday so that he didn't have to study on Sunday, you know, because he never, he, he, he made a commitment that he would never, ever study on Sunday in medical school, and he did it.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] That would seem like a huge disadvantage relative to the other students, you would think, was it?

Cody Young [00:47:01] Well, that's not how I saw it. Yeah, I mean, I, I did well enough, but yeah, I mean, if you have an exam On Monday, everybody else is studying Sunday evening, cramming, right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] And you've got to cram Saturday night

Cody Young [00:47:14] into Sunday morning, Saturday night. But then, but then I'm keeping the Sabbath day the best I felt like I could and I felt like I'd be blessed for that. And I mean, yeah, that was my, that was my reasoning.

Leah Young [00:47:25] But he never studied on Sunday. But he was also busy a lot on Sunday with church. And so, you know, it was just, it's been a busy life. And at times that's, you know, between me starting my business and I started to see things a little bit differently. Right. I started to see the patriarchy more. I started to. There's sort of like over the years I can look back and see that there, there was a bit of an evolution. Right. But I was still all in. Like, couldn't even fathom, like, John. I had no idea that anything that I've learned existed, literally. So, like, while things became uncomfortable and difficult, while I saw, wait a minute, like, this is okay for a man, but like, it's actually not okay for a woman. Even in our marriage. Like, you can work every Sunday if you're on call and I will go to church alone with the kids, but the second that I have something, you know, to support a friend on a Sunday, maybe it's not okay. Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:32] Okay. So you started doing exercise. So you're, you had a, you had a part time job the early years of your marriage, doing what?

Leah Young [00:48:41] Yeah, I was a fitness instructor for 16 years, starting when I was pregnant with Brinley up until about a year and a half ago.

John Dehlin [00:48:47] Was that yoga? Was that, what was that like?

Leah Young [00:48:50] I taught like, pretty, I taught like over, like almost 40 different formats over the years in every different kickboxing, body pump barre, pilates, yoga. I mean, I taught classes on a trampoline. I taught, I mean, you name it, anything. Except for dance. I didn't teach dancing, so I was doing that. And he was always very supportive of that. And it was never on a Sunday, which worked out really well. There would be like a train, a mandatory training once a year. And that was always a difficult thing in our marriage because once a year I would have to go to a mandatory training on a Sunday. And that was.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] What was that, like,

Cody Young [00:49:37] hard?

John Dehlin [00:49:37] Why?

Cody Young [00:49:40] We fought over it most of the time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] So you're fighting why? Because if you had a medical residency thing on a Sunday, you had to go, right?

Leah Young [00:49:49] Yeah, no problem.

John Dehlin [00:49:49] And there was no question, there was no fighting. You would work on Sunday for the medical training.

Cody Young [00:49:55] And you know, not that I'm proud of this line of reasoning, but my line of reasoning was, you know, there are certain jobs that, you know, the firefighters and the police officers and the doctors and nurses, they have. I mean, we can't close the hospitals on Sundays, but we don't have to keep the gyms open on Sundays, you know, sort of a thing.

John Dehlin [00:50:17] So it's not essential.

Cody Young [00:50:18] It's not essential. And, and I, and, and, and I totally. This several times. And I meant it. And it was that, you know, listen, if we didn't have kids, it'd be one thing, but we have kids and we have to set the example for them. And I want them to respect the Sabbath day.

Leah Young [00:50:31] But this was a mandatory training once a year that I actually had to do in order to keep my certification. So this wasn't, this wasn't teaching. This was actually I had to get my credits. So it was one time a year and it was a whole weekend.

John Dehlin [00:50:44] And how did it feel to feel like there was kind of this double standard? What was that like for you and what were those fights like?

Leah Young [00:50:52] Well, I could never win. I could never win because he had the prophet and the scriptures and God and not trying to make him feel bad, like he was really trying to do the right thing.

John Dehlin [00:51:11] It's not. Cody, it's a system. You were a part of it's a system and you were being faithful to the system.

Leah Young [00:51:16] He felt like he was being faithful to the system. What happened in a number of ways over time was when he would become more faithful to the system and he couldn't hear me, it started to become deeply painful because I was like, I would feel at times like I didn't have a voice. And I would say, I've. Cody, every time you go away for conferences or you, you're on call still, I mean, you work 12 hour days still. You, you, you work weekends, you work. I'm all, I'm always here taking care of everything. And that we're having this conversation when one time a year, one time a year I have a mandatory training. Like, it just felt so suffocating at times. It felt so suffocating. And the degree of fervor and rightness that Cody felt in those conversations, like I just didn't have it. Why talk at times? Why, why talk? Because you have it all figured out. You can point me to the scriptures that tell me I'm wrong and the prophet that tells me I'm wrong. And yet you go and you work all the time and I do all of the heavy lifting with the kids. So it would feel at times very suffocating.

John Dehlin [00:52:51] And why were you working at all? I could even see him going back to an Ezra TAF Benson talk that says the woman's place is in the home. Why were you even working at all?

Leah Young [00:53:01] Well, I think that he always really supported me and he always felt like it was really healthy that I had something that I was focused on and working towards and a skill that I was developing. But see, it didn't. I would bring the children to the gym, right, and it would just be, I'd be teaching a few classes every week, 3, 4, 5. But it didn't interfere in any way with my, I never had to get help with the kids. I was earning some income, albeit very small. But when we had no money throughout residency and medical school, it was helpful and it wasn't like a full. I'd go in and teach a class like I could. And I would always say, well, I can either go to a fitness club and pay for it or I can go and teach and make money doing it. You know what I mean? So it, it sort of fit in with my life. It wasn't like I was working a part time job. It didn't feel like that. It was, I was teaching fitness classes. So I think. And he always very much supported me in that and was very, very encouraging of that and was really wonderful except for when it came to anything.

Gender Roles and Tensions in the Marriage

John Dehlin [00:54:01] On Sunday, Nicole Wagner's joins us and she says I feel your pain.

Leah Young [00:54:06] Hi Nicole, we're going to talk about you in a minute.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] So Cody, really quickly, I, I saw, maybe I just projected, but I perceived you feeling a little bit uncomfortable, maybe a tiny bit defensive at some point, maybe a little bit guilty or ashamed. Do you want to talk about what you were feeling?

Cody Young [00:54:25] Well, it's just, it's interesting because I can see with new lenses, if you will. You know, I see these situations in a way that, like I mentioned, it's, it's, I feel, I feel ashamed at times for ways that I behaved. And yeah, we can talk about how it was the programming and it was me just trying to be faithful to God and putting God above family at times. And that was, you know, that was highly valued right in the church. And that's what I was trying to do. I would have told you three years ago, it's God, then it's family. And you would have put family after God. Yes, yes.

Leah Young [00:54:58] Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:00] Whoa.

Cody Young [00:55:02] Yeah. And I don't, to be honest, I don't think that's a fanatical view within the church, John. I don't. I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but I don't know. We could put out a. I recall that it's taught, but I mean, I didn't feel like a zealot for saying, hey, God. To the extent that that's true. Towards the end, getting more towards our journey, that begins to shift a bit. Right. But for the first 15 years of our marriage, that's how I felt. But I didn't view them as separate things so much. Right. There were times when I felt like I had to make a choice. But the beautiful thing of our marriage, at least for these 15 plus years, was I didn't have to make that choice very often. And it didn't feel like it was over very significant things. I felt like our paths were very aligned. Our goals and the direction we wanted to go were very well aligned. I felt like we were a great match and a good team. There were just these speed bumps, there were these pain points along the way where it would flare up. And we were, you know, life in medical school and residency with kids, young kids, for a myriad of reasons, was such a challenge for each of us in different ways. And for literally 10 years of our marriage, the first 10 years of our marriage, we were like, you know, we talked about in the past is like we were both living sort of parallel, very difficult journeys. And I couldn't really understand what she was going through. She couldn't really understand what I was going through. And there was little time to sit and talk and little energy because by the time we got the kids to bed at night, it's like you're both exhausted for different reasons. Right. And so the connection, I think, was a little bit difficult at times, and that was a challenge. But going back to your question. Yeah, I mean, I miss the mark at times and I feel embarrassed by that. But I can sit here and she can say, I felt like I didn't have a voice. And. And I can see that. I can see, yeah, yeah, I understand why you felt that way. At the time, I would have never vocalized that. I would have never said, how can you say you don't have a voice? You're sitting here telling me how you feel. It's just that you're wrong.

John Dehlin [00:57:11] You know, I hear words coming out of your mouth, so you must have a voice.

Cody Young [00:57:17] But she felt, in a sense, powerless because I could at times could play the trump card, which was God, which was the scriptures, which was, well, President Monson said that you Know Elder Christensen, he played for the. For the Oxford basketball team. And the championship was on Sunday. And he didn't play. He didn't play. So the prophet's endorsing us to not even play in the championship basketball game on Sunday. So, yeah, I don't think it's appropriate, you know, this, that and the other. So, I mean,

John Dehlin [00:57:44] what does that do to marital intimacy? To have a patriarchy where the husband is kind of the rule interpreter and enforcer and the. And the woman has to kind of like argue but then submit. Do you have a way to even because you're only a year into, you know, a new faith perspective, this is kind of all you've known. Just like growing up in Provo, that's all you knew. In some sense, you kind of only knew the patriarchy. But do you have any perspective on how that affects marital, emotional and even physical intimacy? Or does it not. Do you have any thoughts on that?

Cody Young [00:58:23] I'll let Leah answer. But the one thing I would say is you have to put in perspective of the entire relationship. Certainly it's damaging to the extent that it's damaging, I guess is determined by how frequently it comes up in the marriage and in the relationship. But I would say it's generally not healthy.

Leah Young [00:58:41] Yeah, I would say it's not healthy. There is a wedge there that can be put in between you and your spouse when you feel like on any topic, whatever it is, that it's not safe, your feelings can't be seen. If you do share feelings, then they might be wrong or you might be labeled in certain ways. Yeah, I think that that can happen in religion. It can happen in a variety of different ways. But, you know, as I look back, I can see. And we'll talk about this, but I can see where that escalated significantly. I would say towards the end of our time in the church, there was definitely certain things that made that experience get to the point where I didn't know how we were gonna get through.

John Dehlin [00:59:55] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber. Subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Guest [01:00:28] Clear your mind There is a life beyond the shore Calling to you once more this is the life you're making There is a love for the taking it's alright these guys don't have to

Leah Young [01:00:56] be you

Guest [01:00:58] Baby, you're somebody new when the lions are drawn in Friends of you it's all right to be you. It's all right Way to shame disbelief it says who you want to be. But there is a wiser part of you. I know you feel it.

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 1046

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. So yeah, you're living the patriarchal Mormon dream in the order you're a little bit, a little bit unorthodox in the sense that you're working a part time job outside the home. Although I don't know that that's totally unorthodox, I think.

Leah Young [00:01:02] Yeah. Fitness.

John Dehlin [00:01:03] I mean, no, in Utah. I mean many people can't afford to live on a single income, so I knew growing up women who had daycares on the side or who sell the sold essential oils or whatever it was at the time. I don't think it's totally unorthodox.

Leah Young [00:01:21] No, I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] But it's a little bit. But you're living the Mormon dream. That's patriarchal. How does that affect intimacy between you? Emotional and even physical intimacy to the extent that you think it's relevant and, and worth sharing?

Leah Young [00:01:36] Well, I think that when I, I don't think I would have even used the name patriarch. Well, I didn't even really, I couldn't have vocalized what patriarchy was until I started my new business. And that was about ago now.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] Okay.

Leah Young [00:01:52] And that's really when things started to become. I started to feel like more aware of patriarchy. And again, I don't even know if I could have given it that title. But just there were some challenges with really starting my own business that I don't really want to spend a whole lot of time on because there's so many good things to get to. But.

Cody Young [00:02:20] When.

Leah Young [00:02:21] Yeah, I don't know if I should go into when you had your got your calling. When I started my new business, it was a really busy time for our family. My business really took off. I was working a lot, but I was also doing everything at home. But it was, it definitely added a stress and it was sort of in the.

Career Changes and Church Callings

John Dehlin [00:02:39] Let me ask you this, so why did you change careers so Well, I

Leah Young [00:02:45] didn't plan on doing a new job, but I purchased these products and I loved them. And I don't know if I am Able to how much I can get into detail with that. But I purchased these skincare products and I didn't plan on doing the business. It was never in the cards. But when I got in, I saw this is a fantastic way to empower women. It's a great business opportunity. It fell in line with what I had done as a doula and as a fitness instructor. And I thought, I, I'm going to run with this because I really feel like I can bless people's lives in a meaningful way. And so I did, and I started working my business. It was direct marketing, it's Rodan and Fields. And I started growing a team. And it was interesting because I started to observe some differences between some real interesting differences when I was working with couples or women in, in the church versus out of the church. And then also sort of seeing how those themes were in my marriage and just starting to evaluate, wait, this doesn't seem quite right, or this doesn't seem quite healthy, or this doesn't feel quite right. That seeing a lot of guilt and shame. Right, A lot of guilt and shame and a lot of kind of just things that weren't very healthy, maybe for some of the women who were members who are participating in this, and myself included. And it was a time of a lot of growth where I had to decide, am I going to sort of do the comfortable thing here, religion wise, marriage wise, or am I going to not give in to the criticism even sometimes coming from home? And so it was a pivotal time where I decided. And I remember I sat in the car in this little white church and I just. Was just sobbing.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] Okay, wait, wait, wait. I want to bring you back because I think this is a really important part of the story. So for 16, 17 years, you're doing fitness. You try some skin care products and you not only get excited about the product, but you get excited about the potential to impact women.

Leah Young [00:05:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] So you, so you sign up to quit the other job?

Leah Young [00:05:07] No, I was doing both.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] Okay, so you're doing the fitness thing, but then you're like, oh, I can sell. I can sell these products too, and what, make a little money on the side?

Leah Young [00:05:16] Well, no, it was more. It wasn't really about. It was more like, I can empower women like my mom. You know, my mom was a single mom. Like, there's a real amazing way that I can help women, and I have a heart and a passion for that to do something to where they can be present in their lives and also earn money. So that was really the compelling that was very compelling to me.

John Dehlin [00:05:40] Okay, so you start doing this new job and you're still doing the old job. How does the commitment build and then how does the tension build? Go ahead and get into that. What is the job starting to require that's different from the past 17 years before? And then how does that start impacting the family?

Leah Young [00:06:01] Yeah. So I mean, first of all, it's untraditional. Right. So there's, you know, whether we're in the church or not in the church, there's some uncomfortability of that with Cody and with me, like putting myself out there and doing something that's untraditional. It's something that many people poo poo or look down on. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:06:16] What's hard about it? What's untraditional about it?

Leah Young [00:06:19] It's direct sales. So it's. I mean, people feel like it's. Oh, there's something like evil or dark or bad. You know, people have all these ideas in their head. It's actually just a. It's what I think can be a really phenomenal business model. But. But there's a lot of objections that come up because of fear or people. Stories people have told themselves about this line of business. So a lot of people say, well, we don't do this kind of thing. You know what I mean? We don't do this kind of like. We don't do this kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] It's kind of like the. I mean, old times Amway, Nu Skin Doterra, Young living. It's a similar. It's all that kind of thing. Is that right?

Cody Young [00:06:57] Ish.

Leah Young [00:06:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] Okay.

Leah Young [00:06:58] Ish.

John Dehlin [00:06:59] Which is just basically who are your friends who do you know, what are your social networks selling through that instead of a company exclusively relying on ads or, you know, radio spots or TV spots or, you know, magazine ads or whatever. It's direct marketing. Yeah. Is that.

Leah Young [00:07:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:17] Okay.

Leah Young [00:07:17] Generally that's. That's generally.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] And that. That. That stresses out or causes discomfort in the marriage. How and why?

Leah Young [00:07:25] Well, you know, I mean, it's uncomfortable to me in the beginning to do something new and it's uncomfortable for Cody because it's just more of me. Right. That needs to be a little taken away. And there are some sacrifices. Maybe the meals aren't quite the same and I don't think Cody minded so much that. But it was more that now, you know, maybe I did need to go on a weekend trip or maybe I did need to be gone for the evening. And. And that was new. It was new for Us. And at times it was challenging for me, and at times it was challenging for Cody. But it was within that context that I started to really see. Well, if I had, I started to really see that there was some huge differences between what was acceptable for me and what was acceptable for a man in more like a man can do anything I felt like, but because by

John Dehlin [00:08:21] this time you're how about how old?

Leah Young [00:08:22] Three years ago.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] Okay, so it's three years ago, you're in your early 40s, what, late, late 30s. And Cody's done with med school. He's now fully working at a hospital, doing the legit doctor thing. You've settled into your new life in Columbus, still very faithful, but. But something's different. Now. All of a sudden you're wanting to spread your wings and fly a little bit, career wise. And you're primarily motivated by this desire to help women, which is deeply rooted in your own emotional drive because of what your mom experienced and what you've experienced. So it becomes a passion for you. Right. Like a mission. And so it starts to put stress on the marriage because you're going to need to be gone more or things won't be quite as buttoned up as they maybe had been previous.

Leah Young [00:09:18] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:19] Okay.

Leah Young [00:09:20] I would say that.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] Okay.

Leah Young [00:09:23] And then at the same time, what happened is Cody was called in to be. Is there anything you want to add to that?

Guest [00:09:32] I would just say that my. My perspective was, here we are with a very full plate. Leah has a very full plate. I have a very full plate. And we're putting a substantial something else onto the plate. And when you do that, something has to come off the plate to make room for it. So what comes off or what changes? And that's where the rub was, like Leah said. I've always believed that Leah is her own woman. She's her own person. I think it's great that she has passions and desires above and beyond mothering and being a wife. And I truly feel like I've always been a fan of that and supportive of that. And this was a little bit different. I mean, I was supportive of this idea more intense than anything that she had to that point, tried to do. And certainly my vision and understanding of the opportunity for her in the beginning was not. Wasn't what it is now and wasn't what it was for her at that time. She saw greater and better things than I could foresee.

Leah Young [00:10:30] Yeah.

Guest [00:10:32] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:10:33] So as you start experiencing that tension and you start noticing the difference.

Leah Young [00:10:38] Yeah, yeah. And there's. I mean, we could Spend. I mean, I could go into that. But yeah, I mean I started realizing, I mean the reason my plate was so full is because I was taking care of everything around the home and the kids and those were all my responsibilities. So that was, that was why it was full. Because we have four kids and they all have needs and wants and desires and, and my primary role is tending to all of that. So to make space and the home and things like that. So to make space for me to have a separate part time passion or career, that was just very, very challenging because it was full and sort of in this time where my business was growing really quick and there was just, we were just sort of trying to readjust, right. And there was tension because of that. At times Cody gets called in to. And we get called in and he's called to become the young men's president. And I would say that's where the story begins really. I mean there's all this stuff that we've talked about. I really, as I look back now, I can see that that's I think, really where the unraveling begins for me because I'm sitting there sobbing just thinking like, we have so much going on right now. And if this calling is from God, that doesn't make sense to me because he knows that we're like trying to, like it's a really hard time for us. Like there's so much on our plate. It's a really hard time. I'm sitting in there sobbing and I'm like, in that moment I'm going like this. I don't, I don't think God want. I don't think God called Cody to this position because this would be the worst thing for our marriage right now. The worst thing that could happen right now is for him to be gone more than he already is. And his, you know, and some things had changed in his work. His boss had passed away. There were extra pressures on him at work. He was doing all the scheduling. He works very, very long days. So he's home. You know, when he's home, it's really, really precious and valuable time. And I knew that young men's leader means campouts and high adventure and weeknight activities. And I'm just thinking how like, what about when are our children going to see you? When am I going to see you? And all this is kind of going through my head and at the same time the bishop is saying, you know, well, you know, I can see that you're distraught. And he was great and he's like I'm going to let you guys both work it out and decide what you want to do. But what is a Mormon woman to do? We are supposed to support them, and we will be blessed for it. Right. So you're sort of caught in between a rock and a hard spot, because it's like, if I say no, I'm unfaithful. If I say no, he will resent me, potentially. If I say no, I'm going to make him more concerned because I'm not being as faithful. If I say no, like, I can't. That's not an option to say no. And I'm not demonstrating faith, and I'm not. You know, maybe what we need is for him to be gone more, because if he's gone more, maybe that's somehow going to bless our family to be able to cope with more. Right. So all of these things are kind of going through my head.

Guest [00:14:16] Yeah. It's a little bit like back at the, you know, her first experience with the temple, she. And we are all offered, you know, the choice, but it's. But was it really a choice for Leeah to support that calling from God in that moment? Right. There really was only one dignified way to proceed in her mind, I think is, you know, he was offering a choice and doing so graciously. And I believe that he would have accepted the answer no, but Leah didn't. Didn't feel like that was an option.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] Okay, so he gets the call, and then how do you guys handle that?

Leah Young [00:14:59] So he accepts the call.

Guest [00:15:00] We talked about it for.

Leah Young [00:15:01] Yeah, we talked about it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] Did you ask him not to? Because Mormons don't turn down calls.

Leah Young [00:15:05] No, I couldn't ask him not to.

Guest [00:15:10] No. But we talked quite a bit about it, and in the end, she said on several occasions, I want you to do it. And maybe it wasn't a heartfelt, I want you to do it, but I would not have done it if she said, kody, I really don't want you to do this. I would not have said, well, it doesn't matter. I'm going to do it.

Leah Young [00:15:29] I had a lot of hope, and I had a lot of faith. I really did. And I also felt like I couldn't say no, but I had a lot of hope that what the bishop said was true. I really believed that he was speaking truth when he said, if you support your husband in doing this, you will be blessed, your family will be blessed, your children will be blessed. And I'm like, okay, I'm going to put my faith into this. And I don't think I saying no is not an option, because then I'll just feel terrible that I withheld what God wanted Cody to do or what he may have wanted to do. And so we said yes. And that decision caused a lot of challenge.

Guest [00:16:21] Yeah, it was a challenge for sure.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] What way?

Guest [00:16:25] Well, like Leah was saying, you know, we're both very busy, and I was excited about the calling. I had never served. I was excited and humbled and inadequate and all those feelings, like, I'd never served in a young men's presidency before to be the young men's president. I had no idea how to do it. I'm a father of daughters, right. I didn't do scouting as a boy, so I felt. I felt quite inadequate. So there was that sense of it. But there was a great excitement because we had and still have great, great youth in our ward here and great young men. So I was excited to work with them and to have the chance, you know, I don't have any sons, so I was excited. The opportunity to mentor boys, mentor young men, you know, so it was exciting and then hard all at the same time, you know, because, well, scouting is a bit. At least, has been a big part of the young men's program. Right. And so I wanted to be a part of that. Well, that's hard when I'm busy all week long, and then there's a campout Friday to Saturday. And, you know, unlike some of the other young men's leaders, I don't have a son in the troop, so it's not father son time for me. And Leah and the girls are stuck here at home wondering why I can't take them camping or, you know, or why does dad have to leave again? And I feel. I felt torn. I felt some angst between, well, I want to do my calling the best way I know how for the boys. And because this is what God's asked me to do yet, I can see how it's taking me away from my family even more than I already had been away from them, typically. And so there was a real struggle there. And Leah felt, I think, more alone and less supported by me. And I felt at times so frustrated because I didn't know what to do. I was trying to do. I was just trying to do my best. I'm trying to fulfill my calling, trying to be a good father and a good husband. There's only so many hours in the day and in the week. And what do you do? Again, it goes back to this, you know, where are the priorities? God and family. Right. Like, at times I chose family and I said, guys, sorry, you're going to have to go on this camp out without me. I can't go. I'm doing this. And I felt guilty. I felt guilty for having to say that, you know, because I wanted to be the best I could for the boys. And at times I said to Leah and the girls, hey, I'm going to go do this with the young men. And it was so. There was a real struggle there internally for me. I loved it and it made life more difficult all at the same time.

John Dehlin [00:19:01] Yeah, yeah, it's a little bit complicated. We've struck another nerve with listeners. A lot of people are relating to what you said to your story. So Tammy writes, reminds me of when I was going through infertility, had just lost a baby, and they decided nursery was a good idea for her. Juliet writes, they made me young women's president just before I started medical school. Did it the whole first year. Julie writes, exactly what I thought when my husband was called to be bishop. This is the worst possible thing for our marriage right now. And all the same thoughts of how I can be myself and supportive at the same time. She says, love you. Leah Gilda writes, makes me sad that Mormonism brainwashes families to think that you need a middleman to get a relationship with God. Tammy writes, it all goes back to women. They lose their voice in the patriarchy. Yeah. And someone else says, so what? The bishop was saying, if you don't accept the blessing, you're missing blessings. Guilt. Kelsey says, the guilt is so wrong. Casey writes, another prime example of an unhealthy aspect of Mormonism, the guilt and shame of not being able to say no. And also the stress burden that many callings place on families. Juliet writes, I was once overwhelmed by a calling that I walked out of church, left my kids with my husband, and walked two miles in my dress to get home and fall apart. I asked to be released or my husband asked them to. I learned how to say no to callings after that. It isn't worth a mental breakdown. And this is kind of. It's a bit of a paradox because part of what makes Mormonism succeed, what makes it so successful, is that everybody works so hard and is so committed and they serve in their callings. And we all you guys are grateful for your Mormon upbringing. I'm grateful for my Mormon upbringing. There were a ton of adults that made a ton of sacrifices. It probably wasn't always easy on their marriage, and yet they made these sacrifices because they believed in the church and the gospel and they loved it. So that's the beautiful part. And we've all benefited from it. And the dark side is it can really wear on individual's health and it can. It can wear on the marriage. And, you know, how do you navigate that? You know?

Cody Young [00:21:46] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:21:46] And it's tricky because it gets to a point, like, for Cody, it got to a point where he felt there was some resentment, right? Like, I was feeling some resentment because here he is working all week, gone a lot, doing extra duties at home for work, and then he's also taking this on. And I'm. It's like if there was ever, ever, ever a time where I needed you, and it was right now where my business got so busy and I just had taken on something new. And so I'm feeling some resentment of him being gone. And I. And, you know, and here it's like I had lived that journey, right? Like 10 years of medical school and residency, four babies. And so I kind of felt like, ah, you know, like it's never going to happen. Like you're never going to be. You're never gonna be around. It was sort of that feeling of like you've had high callings. I know the trajectory you're on. And this is only the beginning. And then he's kind of feeling some frustration and resentment towards me. Cause he's like, let me serve God. Like, this is what I've covenanted to do. And then I'm shamed. I feel horrible because I feel like I don't want to get in the way of him serving God or us getting to the celestial kingdom. Like, I want to do my part, but it's just the tension. And I remember sitting in my room one night after an argument that we had, just sobbing. Just that feeling of, like, I think he had said, like, it was when it had really escalated and we had that really bad argument. And he said, I'm going to do what I want to do no matter what you think or say. And I remember just sobbing in my closet, just thinking, I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to have a

Cody Young [00:23:46] voice

Leah Young [00:23:48] when it comes to things that really matter and be righteous. You know, how does a Mormon woman do it all? How does a Mormon woman do it all? You know, it just gets. It gets exhausting. And feeling horrible for feeling bad about his calling, but feeling just like I really needed to have him at home sometimes. And just feeling his resentment towards me about being frustrated about his calling. It just was all so difficult, and it just felt like we were missing each other. It was like it just had gotten to a point where at times we just were really feeling like there was that wedge at times. And. Yeah, so

John Dehlin [00:24:40] I can imagine in an orthodox Mormon scenario that the conclusion in this scenario becomes, stop working, Leah. Like, we have the plan. It's the woman stays home, and you're violating it. Cut it out. Give up. Go back to taking care of the kids full time. He's making plenty of money. Let him do his thing. Why. Why wasn't that. You know, why wasn't that what made it. So that wasn't kind of the conclusion that everybody reached?

Leah Young [00:25:17] Well, for me, it wasn't really the business brought up some of the. Some of the patriarchy, an understanding of that for me. But whether I was working or not, Cody was working. He was working very long hours. And so, you know, Cody will have some weeks off here and there, but when he's working, it's long days. You know, he's gone at six, little after six in the morning and home hopefully maybe by six at night. So I don't know that had I not been doing the business, maybe the edge would have been taken off a little bit. Yeah. But the goneness is still. He would have still been gone, and that would have still been hard. And we had done that through residency, through the callings that he'd had, executive ward clerk and all this. So that was. We'd done it for a long time. I just think with four girls who, you know, daddy, we want to go. Like, we've always begged you to go camping. You know, Daddy never had time to take us camping, and now he's going camping with the boy. You know, it's hard having all girls and having your husband gone during nights of the week, during the weekends, Saturday temple trips, all of these times without any of his kids, and these girls sort of feeling like, well. And then the girls start saying, like, well, we don't have. Why don't we do those things? You know, so they're starting to be aware of, like, wow, the boys do a lot of things that we don't do. And yet they were always very happy to have Cody in the calling. I mean, they were never like, dad shouldn't do the calling, you know, but it did bring some things up for sure. And.

John Dehlin [00:26:56] Yeah, but why not jump to the conclusion that you should just give up your job for the family, Just eliminate as much complexity as possible.

Leah Young [00:27:10] I just didn't entertain that ever Were you hoping.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] Was there a part of you hoping for that, Cody?

Guest [00:27:15] No.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] Why not?

Guest [00:27:17] Because the further she got into the business, the more empowered I saw her feeling and the more validation and fulfillment I saw in her life. And as I said, I've always tried to be supportive of her having passions outside of our home. And so, yeah, that thought never. I can't recall it ever crossing my mind. And I don't think I ever vocalized that to Leah, but it was just not on the table. And so, yeah, so a year after I was called, I asked to be released.

Leah Young [00:27:53] He asked to be released, and he sobbed. And I felt horrible. I felt horrible.

John Dehlin [00:28:02] Why'd you sob, Sodi, Cody?

Guest [00:28:06] Um. Cause I had never. I'd never. I'd never turned down a calling. I never asked to be released from a calling. I always just wanted to do my best to serve the Lord. I loved the young men. Even in the year that I was with them, I learned to really love them and appreciated that time with them. And it was so hard. I felt like I was choosing between God and my family, and I didn't want to have to make that choice. And I felt so torn. There was just real inner turmoil. You know, it had wreaked real havoc in my heart, and we had some difficult times. It's not like that year was just horrible as a couple. It did cause some strife, and there were some arguments over time and my commitment. But in many ways, that year was lovely. And it was lovely and I just enjoyed it. And so to give it up. And I felt like I was letting the young men down. I felt like I was letting the Lord down. I felt like I was letting the bishop down.

Leah Young [00:29:20] And he had reached that. I did not make him give up the calling.

Guest [00:29:22] Like, no, no, he.

Leah Young [00:29:24] He decided to do that, but. And yet when he made that decision, I said, no, no, no, don't do it, because I felt so bad and, But. But yet I. It was just like a no win situation. Yeah.

Guest [00:29:41] For us. For us in that moment, it was. It was the best thing to do. And the bishop was very gracious. He said, I, I, you know, I went over, I met with him at his house and, and explained the situation, and he said, you're making the right decision. And so he was very, very, very good about it.

Leah Young [00:29:55] Yeah.

Guest [00:29:56] So.

John Dehlin [00:29:57] And Leah, you were getting emotional too. What was that about for you?

Leah Young [00:30:01] Well, I just felt so sad to be in this situation where I was feeling like I need you and our kids need you right now in their lives. And yet I know you want to do this so bad. And I know that you've never had sons and that this fills your heart in important ways. So the whole time it was sort of like this, like, I want you to do it. I want you to do that. And then there's this other part of me that's like, but I. I need you, and our kids need you. So it was. It was like this, like. So when he came to me and he said, I'm gonna. I'm. I'm not. I'm gonna ask to be released, it was like this, like, relief and also this, like, deep pain, because I know he was going to be so, so heartbroken. So it was just this interesting sort of interesting time. And then that kind of takes us up to the point where. And then he became back to gospel doctrine, like, the best gospel doctrine teacher ever. He would spend hours preparing lessons, and so he got called back to that, and I was Relief Society teacher, and. And that kind of brings us to the point where we. Where it all came crashing down.

John Dehlin [00:31:17] Okay, so what was the first. How did it. How did the Mormon dream turn into a nightmare?

Leah Young [00:31:23] Yeah. So do you want to go or

Guest [00:31:25] do you want to go for it?

Leah Young [00:31:26] So my friend Nicole Wagner, she does Rodan Fields as well, but she's not. Anyway, she's not on my team, but she's LDS and her husband as well. And she's a convert. And she was very. She was someone who I saw as trustworthy and devoted. She had served a mission as a convert. The church really blessed her. And really, I mean, she's very open and honest about how it. It helped her in her life when she found it, and she was struggling. And just like, I would try and understand anyone who was struggling. She was struggling in her faith. But she had said, you know, my sister and my brother left the church ten years ago, which hopefully we'll have time to talk about a little bit. But, you know, they never talked to me the way Nicole talked to me

John Dehlin [00:32:17] and actually go into that. So let's go back. So talk about Kelty. She's joining us, by the way.

Leah Young [00:32:23] Oh, okay. Hi, Kelty. So finally we're getting to this good part, which we're thankful for the viewers who have stayed tuned through the not as exciting part or maybe applicable to them. So 10, about 10 years ago, my sister Kelty and her husband Dwayne, who are just lovely, kind people of integrity and value, they. Dwayne, sort of stepped away. There's a lot of parts of their story, but Dwayne Began to step away from the church, and. Which was really difficult, you know, for Kelty, for various reasons. When there's one person who's questioning, and they kind of went through and they experienced all of that difficulty. And then Kelsey eventually ended up leaving as well. But because of all of the fear that's at play, the fear of losing relationships, the fear of all the fears that's at play. We never really had a very transparent or open conversation about why she had left. She tried to bring it up with me, apparently, once, just about something small like Brigham Young. And I totally shot her down. I sent her articles, you know, in the mail, Ensign articles. But I was also, I think, respectful, I think she would say, of her own journey, and she kind of would mention little things like patriarchy, but it was never something that she was very, like, wanting to. To share with me, come to find out. That's because she wanted. She wanted. She knew how painful it was for her, and she didn't want to be the reason why we went through so much pain.

A Sibling's Faith Transition and Its Impact

John Dehlin [00:34:12] And this is something that is so maddening, and that borders on. I don't want to use the C word, but it borders in cult territory because. Would you describe you and Kelty as being close growing up, or.

Leah Young [00:34:27] She's my only sister, and.

John Dehlin [00:34:29] Well, sometimes that can mean you fight a lot.

Leah Young [00:34:31] Yeah, no, I would say we were close.

John Dehlin [00:34:33] Okay, so these are siblings. Only sisters who were close. Would you say you guys could talk about a lot of stuff, if not everything?

Leah Young [00:34:43] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:34:43] Okay. And so not only is it sisters, but it's probably the most important thing that could happen to either of them in their entire lives, which is Kelty, who had based, you know, married to Dwayne, who had, you know, based her whole life on Mormonism. Mormonism was the most important thing that was true for everyone. That was true for everyone in the family. Now she's losing her faith. Now she's completely terrified and sad and scared and would want someone to talk to about it. Who would she think of to be the first person she'd talk to? Well, it would be my sister. Cause sometimes parents, you know, aren't totally safe. And yet Kelty can't come talk to you. And I had the same thing happen. I had a faith crisis. And I don't. This isn't a diss on my brother, but I went to my brother Joel, who's one of the first people I went to. And this is back in 2001. We were both working for Microsoft. We eat lunch together. Right. And he's like, I don't want to hear about this. You know, So I went. I did that. I wasn't as compassion as Kelty. I just went straight to Joel, and he's just like, I'm happy in my marriage. We have seven kids. Life's going good. I don't want to hear anything you have to say. That was his response to me, but Kelty's was one of compassion to you. But what's that like for Kelty to not be able to talk to her own sister about the most important thing in her life?

Leah Young [00:36:10] Well, I mean, she tried to test the waters. You know, she tried to just bring up this little thing, I think, about polygamy once, many years after they had left. And I was like, we do not talk about that in my home. Apparently, I said that. I don't remember saying that, but I did. So she had tried to test the waters a little bit like, is this safe? Like Dipper Towen and felt that it wasn't safe, but it's incredibly isolating. And at the time, her journey is so different than ours has been. You know, 10 years ago, there weren't all these resources. There weren't. I mean, gosh, there's support groups everywhere. There's books, there's Mormon stories, podcasts, there's Mormon discussions. There's. I mean, 100 episodes different pod. I mean, there's all this help and the support. Now, that's not. Wasn't her experience. She literally had no one but Dwayne. And for a time there, Dwayne and Kelsey weren't on the same page. And, you know, he had, you know, gone to the dark side of not believing. And so that wasn't even safe. Right. So, I mean, those are some really lonely times for her. And she would. She would try and talk to stake presidents, she would try and talk to Relief Society president. She would try to talk to people. And, of course, she's deceived and just read your scriptures more and, you know, pray. And she went through this time of, like, you know, she was serving in the temple every week. She was like, you know, she really kind of tried to give it her all so that she could stay in. But, you know, obviously the information just was such that that couldn't work. But, yeah, it's a really sad thing. And I've really had to apologize. Cody and I have both apologized to them several times because they. They, you know, they were on their own. And that's my sister.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. When we talked about. We interviewed Stephen Hasson, who Wrote a book about cults and combating cult mind control. He has the bite model. Cults control behavior, information, thoughts, and they manipulate you through emotions. And you can see it at play because I don't think the church explicitly tells people, if you have a faith crisis, don't talk to family or you know, you know, it's not like we're all trained on how to cope with the faith crisis because we're just kind of trained well to stay away from people who are dangerous and stay away from anti Mormon literature. But there's not a training for how to communicate with family and friends in a positive or negative way. It's just never discussed. But this is just the outgrowth of Mormon culture where we're not comfortable talking about it, but it's real behavior and thoughts and information is locked out of this Mormon bubble and it's, and it's just, it's mind boggling. So talk about Leeah, what it was like as you're watching Kelty and Dwayne separate from the church and you too, Cody, what thoughts were going in your mind about them? How were you assessing or even judging their departure and how did that affect your relationship?

Guest [00:39:19] Well, for me, when you believe that there is only one path, there's only one true path, only one true church and you're in it and one of your tribe leaves it for a different path or a different church or a different way, there is no healthy way within the relationship with that person to analyze that other than to come up with some sort of a justification. Right. And there are several. I mean it could, in this case it was. Well, you know, Dwayne is just one of the smartest people I've ever met and he's just so intellectual and he just got too smart to be a member of the church. You know what is is good that we be wise so long as we hearken unto the voice of the Lord or whatever, you know. So I figured, well, that's just what happened to Dwayne. He got too, too smart and too full of himself.

John Dehlin [00:40:15] And by the way, for those who don't remember or know, several years ago the Johnson brothers were doing some. And they still are, I'm sure, but back then they were doing some very visible, important things within Mormonism. One of the Johnson brothers was doing the I'm an ex Mormon videos. These are guys from southern Alberta, like, yeah, Canada. One was doing the I'm an ex Mormon, which, which recently were shown re shown on, on Ex Mormon Reddit during the church's I'M a Mormon campaign. One of the Johnson brothers. Which one was it? Do you even know? Would have done the I'm an Ex Mormon video campaign. And you can see 10 or 20 of those.

Leah Young [00:40:55] Chris.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] Chris. And they're very high production value, very high quality. Emily Pearson, Carolyn Pearson's daughter, did one. Several people did one that was sort of one. And then the other Johnson brothers, didn't they do the word print analysis stuff where they.

Leah Young [00:41:08] That was Dwayne.

John Dehlin [00:41:08] Okay, so Dwayne did the wordprint analysis stuff where he's studying the Book of Mormon and the writings of different possible contributors to the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith, Hyrum, Lucy, Oliver, and doing wordprint analysis to try and establish through scientific means that different parts of the Book of Mormon were authored by different people.

Leah Young [00:41:31] Yeah. And that's linked to the CES letter.

John Dehlin [00:41:33] Right. From the CES letter, were there other big things that the Johnson brothers did besides those three, or did I get.

Leah Young [00:41:39] I know that they would like. I, I once heard that, like they would go to or present at I think maybe ex Mormon conferences, and I

John Dehlin [00:41:46] would just be like, Dwayne says it was Will.

Guest [00:41:50] Oh, Will.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] Okay, okay. Oh, and they did the late war stuff. Yes, that was huge.

Leah Young [00:41:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] I'm sorry, I interrupted you. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Leah Young [00:41:59] Well, that's the algorithmic stuff he did.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] Yeah. When they, when they discovered that there were these other books that had so much of the same linguistic patterns as the Book of Mormon, the King's James English, the, the sayings and the phrases, they came right. Of the late war and the war of Napoleon.

Guest [00:42:18] Of Napoleon, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:20] And it just showed. And these are books that Joseph Smith would have had access to. And it totally demonstrated to many that, wow, it looks like the Book of Mormon very much could have been a 19th century document that came from material and sources that Joseph Smith would have been. Had access to and would have been familiar with. And these were very important discoveries in progressive and post Mormonism at the time. Now, I don't know. So I, I just had to give that aside. So Dwayne, Kelty's husband was one of those three Johnson brothers.

Guest [00:42:53] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] And. And so that's the Dwayne and Kelty we're talking about. So anyway, you were saying, Dwayne, so

Guest [00:43:00] we're, we're unaware of all of this?

John Dehlin [00:43:01] Oh, yeah, we have no idea.

Guest [00:43:03] We have no idea.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] Which in and of itself is bizarre. Right.

Guest [00:43:06] Duane had mentioned to me that he was in, he was involved in this project analyzing, you know, ancient texts and connections to the Book of Mormon, but I just didn't get it. And I did. I was so unaware of all of that side of Mormonism.

Leah Young [00:43:21] Yeah.

Guest [00:43:22] So. Yeah. So back to your question, though. I think what it did.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] Okay, wait, I just have to do this. Okay, so Kelty's setting us all straight. So Kelty says Will did the I'm an ex Mormon video. Duane and Chris did the algorithmic study of the Book of Mormon. Chris, Chris also did the video series. And then Dwayne, it was Will who did the ex Mormon videos. And then Chris presented the Ex Mormon Conference about the late war and the first book of Napoleon. Anyway, I'm just trying to make sure that.

Leah Young [00:43:54] I think it's Chris. He has a YouTube series that was really helpful for me that sort of puts up.

Guest [00:43:59] That's the video that. Yeah. That she mentioned.

Leah Young [00:44:01] Yeah. What's it called? It's called my. My. My Faith Journey. My Mormon Faith Journey. Anyway, look in the comments if you're watching, because that was really good because it. It sort of took Jehovah's Witnesses because it was so unsafe for him to like, deconstruct Mormonism. So he sort of put the focus and talked about confirmation bias and programming, but through the context of Jehovah's Witnesses. That was really helpful for us in the beginning.

John Dehlin [00:44:26] And it's just, it's mind blowing that he, your sister's husband and brothers were doing all this monumental public work, speaking at ex Mormon conferences, and you're completely oblivious, completely to it all, which will be what many people are. You'll do this interview today and they'll be very close cousins, aunts, uncles, friends and family that never learned that you did a video even though it's publicly available. And it's just part of this bite model. It's behavior and information and thoughts somehow being locked down in a Mormon context.

Leah Young [00:44:59] And even with my sister and brother going through this, I still was all in. And like, not even. Like, I. So I don't. Yeah, it's fascinating to look back and realize, like, hindsight is amazing, you know, and you can see the control.

John Dehlin [00:45:23] So you were saying you started Cody to think Dwayne was a little bit too uppity, a little bit too intelligent, a little bit too learned.

Guest [00:45:30] Well, he's wrong.

John Dehlin [00:45:30] And you're a doctor, by the way, so it's.

Guest [00:45:34] Well, he's wrong, right. Because I'm right. If I'm right and he's not with me, then he's wrong. And that's, you know, in very gross terms, that's how we were thinking, right, they are misled, deceived, whatever label you want to give it. And there's plenty of them. And we've been given similar labels. Now, that's the unhealthiness of it, is that that type of orthodoxy and literalism like this is the only means anybody else is, generally speaking, mistaken. And that creates, especially within family, it does create some degree of distance. So, yeah, it was real. And that is what we felt the need to apologize for, is that we allowed for years that distance to be there because we didn't feel comfortable or safe enough or willing to ask why or understand them.

Leah Young [00:46:26] Because, you know, you're right. And, you know, there's just all this stuff that prevents people from having conversations that should happen.

John Dehlin [00:46:36] And so how did the relationship change over time with your sister and with Dwayne?

Leah Young [00:46:40] Well, I mean. I mean, I was always like, again, I was raised by a mom who said, love, you know, and so I was always like, you know, it's cool, it's okay. You know, we love you.

Guest [00:46:55] And Kelty happens to be, like the greatest aunt in the world to our kids.

Leah Young [00:46:58] Yeah.

Guest [00:46:59] So they adore Kelty and Dwayne.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] So you didn't contemplate removing access, Never, never of your kids from Kelty?

Cody Young [00:47:07] No.

Guest [00:47:07] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] Because some people do.

Guest [00:47:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, it's like, I'm not comfortable

John Dehlin [00:47:11] you being around me.

Guest [00:47:11] And part of that was because they were so respectful.

Leah Young [00:47:13] So respectful.

Guest [00:47:14] We knew without even having a conversation that they wouldn't take the kids aside and try and teach them something.

Leah Young [00:47:19] No, they were always.

John Dehlin [00:47:20] That was smart. That was smart of Kelty and Dwayne to be strategic about that. Because relationships over dogma, Right? Either way.

Leah Young [00:47:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:28] Right.

Leah Young [00:47:30] It was always. They were just. They've all.

Guest [00:47:32] I mean, yeah, they've been very gracious throughout the whole thing.

Leah Young [00:47:35] They've been so wonderful. And even as we've apologized, they're like, it's okay. Like, we understand. We were there, you know, 10 years later, so. But what was different is Nicole was like. Nicole didn't hold back. You know, she was very direct with her communication, which I am super grateful for, you know, and she was using words like brainwashed. She was using very strong terminology. And I'm like, this is so odd.

John Dehlin [00:48:03] Nicole was.

Leah Young [00:48:04] Nicole was.

John Dehlin [00:48:05] Okay, so now we're fast forwarding back to.

Leah Young [00:48:06] So now we're going back to.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] Nicole was saying.

Leah Young [00:48:08] So what happened is. So this is.

Guest [00:48:09] This was last December, one year ago, December 2017. And at this point, we are all in.

Leah Young [00:48:16] We are all in.

Guest [00:48:18] Right? We're doing the program the best we know how.

Encountering Faith-Challenging Information

Leah Young [00:48:20] There was that little hiccup with the calling. It was tentious and difficult at times.

John Dehlin [00:48:24] But now Cody's released.

Leah Young [00:48:25] Cody's released. He's doing the. He's teaching the best Mormon doctrine classes on the planet. Everybody said so because he would take so long to prepare. The most amazing. He was really, really good. And I'm teaching in Relief Society and, you know, sometimes making people uncomfortable because I might say Heavenly Mother periodically. But anyway, for the most part, we're doing our callings. Our kids are all in. You know, it's byu, it's the temple. It's, you know, every summer we would take the kids to byu. And this is where you're going to go to school. Young women's in EFY were the best, you know, weeks of Brinley's life. Early morning seminary, you know, straight A, early morning seminary student, Brinley was. So last December, I said to Nicole, I knew she was struggling with some things, but I'm like, how are you doing, like, in relationship to the church? And she just kind of, like, told me, and I'm like, huh, Nicole, this is so weird. Why on earth would you be feeling like that? I'm. I'm just like, this is so weird. Like, I trust her. I know she loved the church. And she's saying things that are really bizarre that I've never heard.

John Dehlin [00:49:39] Like what?

Leah Young [00:49:40] Like we've been brainwashed.

John Dehlin [00:49:42] Like, and why didn't that just make you hate her and run away?

Leah Young [00:49:45] No, because I'm like, well, I need to understand you're in a lot of pain. I need to understand why you're in a lot of pain. And the only way for me to do that is to try and understand how you've come to the conclusion that you're leaving the church and you're in pain. And I've done this with a lot of people. This is what friends do, right? A good friend says, I care so much about you, I want to learn about you. If you're hurting, I want to know why you're hurting. It was not a pattern that was unfamiliar to me. It was just what I've done in many relationships. So I'm like, okay, it's silly to comfort someone if you. It's a little empty to say, I know how you're feeling if you don't, right? So she's like, you need to read the CES letter. So I'm like, great, okay, no problem.

John Dehlin [00:50:35] You didn't feel scared?

Cody Young [00:50:37] No.

Leah Young [00:50:37] Why would I The church is true. And I mean, the prophets say the church is true and the prophets say that, you know, like, everything will point back to the truth. And I was actually like, you know, it would be so great for me to strengthen my testimony because we'd had that experience with Cody and his calling, and I felt like I really needed to just dig in and strengthen my testimony. So I'm like, this is great. Like, I'm gonna help Nicole and I'm gonna strengthen my testimony, you know? Sorry, hang on one second.

John Dehlin [00:51:13] That's okay. No, keep going.

Leah Young [00:51:15] Hey, B. Brinley, just head up to your room and tell we're ready for you. Okay, so. So I read the CES letter. I mean, I didn't stop reading the CES letter. So I read the CES letter.

John Dehlin [00:51:34] It's like, now, had you ever heard about anachronisms in the Book of Mormon? Have you ever heard about, you know, polyandry? Had you ever heard about the Book of Abraham? No. You know, this is 2000 and December 2017.

Leah Young [00:51:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] Like, Mormon stories had been going for, you know, I don't know.

Guest [00:51:51] We knew about you. We knew about. I'd heard of you. I'd heard of Mormon Stories through Kelty. Through Kelty, yeah.

Leah Young [00:51:57] One night when I was feeling super awful and Cody was calling, I looked up and watched you, you know, when you were excommunicated. And I watched that video and I was like, that's so weird. He seems to so nice, but I think that people think he's really bad. And that was just, like, weird. But anyway, no, I knew nothing.

John Dehlin [00:52:28] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Cody Young [00:52:57] Take your time. Clear your mind. There is a light beyond the shore Calling to you once more this is the life you're making There is a love for the taking it's all right these girls don't have to be you Baby, you're somebody new when the lions are drawn Friends of you it's all right to be you. It's all right to be you Shame, disbelief It says who you want to be but there is a wise apart of you I know you feel it too.

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 1047

John Dehlin [00:00:04] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. And that's just crazy. Again in 2017, December, through Kate Kelly, through my excommunication, through Jeremy's, through all the excommunications, all of the podcasts that had come out, Infants on Thrones, your polygamy, all that stuff. The. The Gospel topics, essays, CES Letter. We're talking four years after all that Hans Mattson stuff. And there are. And that's the truth. More. More than not, there are these Mormon, orthodox Mormon couples. Affluent, educated, living in the bubble, oblivious to all the stuff that we think is so significant, so important, so big. You were just one of tens of thousands of orthodox Mormon couples oblivious to everything and locked in the bubble, totally oblivious.

Leah Young [00:01:42] So I'm reading this and I'm like, and. And I'm kind of like, you knew I was reading it early on.

Cody Young [00:01:49] You told me earlier.

Leah Young [00:01:49] But I think he. And we'll get into that. But I just. I mean, 150 pages, boom, done. And then like two days later.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] So you read the whole thing in a.

Leah Young [00:02:01] In a day.

John Dehlin [00:02:02] What was that like?

Leah Young [00:02:04] Well, that was happening. I mean. Well, I. My heart's racing. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Like, which things?

Leah Young [00:02:14] All of it. I didn't know anything.

John Dehlin [00:02:18] Pick three.

Leah Young [00:02:20] Polyandry, which is marrying women who are already married.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] Joseph Smith.

Leah Young [00:02:26] Joseph Smith marrying women who are already married. Young girls, 14 year old, his stepdaughter, essentially, that he was caring for. Book of Abraham, Kinderhook plates, the multiple first vision accounts. That one was hidden for 30 years. Anachronisms, source material. I mean, nothing. I didn't know any of it. I mean, nothing. Blacks in the priesthood, hidden information about nothing. I didn't know anything.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] And what kept you from just like, oh, this is. I'm feeling a bad feeling reading this, so I'm going to stop reading. Or, oh, this is. This all can't be true. It must be all lies. What kept you from like shutting. Flipping the fuse and shutting it all off?

Leah Young [00:03:18] Well, I mean, I was always told that the church was true, so if something's true, then it shouldn't be able to be harmed by investigation. You know what I mean? So why would I be scared? Like, why wouldn't I want to learn about anything? Like, I want. That's just how I am in my life, you know, I want to learn. And so, no, I just. All it did was make me think, okay, that's crazy. I need to read more and more and more. And so that was just the beginning. I mean, CES letter, letter to my wife, the whole website, follow the Prophets. And then I would go deep, deep, deep into, I mean, the witnesses and their lives, you know, what were their lives, what was the history, what was the back. So I went into every vain, Melchizedek priesthood, Aaronic priesthood, visitations, Joseph's life before the Book of Mormon, the golden pot, I mean, you name it, like Mormon origins. But early on, Cody, I mean, that happened over months and months and months, but early on, Cody was not quite on the same page.

Cody Young [00:04:38] Well, that didn't happen over months and months and months.

Leah Young [00:04:41] Well, the incessant reading started the moment I started reading the CES letter and didn't stop for months.

Cody Young [00:04:47] Right, right, right. Yeah, right. Yeah. But you're okay, right? So, so this is happening in December. I'm at work all day and she's at home reading all day. Can't put, can't put the book or computer down because she's just devouring it. And I'm at work pretty much oblivious to what's going on until she sits me down and says, you know, you've got to see this stuff, you've got to read this stuff, and you're not going to believe some of these things. And I had heard of the CES letter. I had, I think at one point I even looked it up online and maybe like high level, like, browsed a couple topics but never read anything in depth. And so when Leah told me she was reading it, I knew it was anti Mormon is what I knew. And so I didn't get upset with her, but I just said, you have to be very careful. You have to be very careful. You need to also study the other side because there is another good side. This is the bad side. You need to also study the other side at the same time so that you can look at both sides of the issues. And. But still, for the first two or three weeks, I wasn't willing to look at anything because it was anti Mormon.

Navigating the Faith Crisis as a Couple

John Dehlin [00:06:14] And again, I don't mean to kind of belabor the point, but here we have a Husband and wife who trust each other with the deepest intimacies that you could ever trust each other with. Emotional psych. They have children together. They share bank accounts. I'm assuming they share everything. They share a bed. And one member of the marriage has now stumbled upon information that's accurate, that's factual, that's irrefutable. That's even backed up by the church itself. Now her world is coming apart. She's unraveling and melting down, obsessed. And the husband, you know, and this isn't you. This is. Every story we've ever heard is like, I can't learn that. I'm not gonna. I can't go there with you. Stay away. Right. It is complete. You're married.

Leah Young [00:07:12] Yeah, it was. It was so, so difficult. I don't know how spouses do it. For years and years and years it was. I was such a mess. We. I couldn't like what way was up. It was like the world was falling. And I reached out to my cousin because I had heard that I had a cousin who left and I reached out to him.

John Dehlin [00:07:30] Okay, wait, you didn't reach out to Kelty?

Leah Young [00:07:34] I did reach out to Kelty.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] Okay, but at the beginning, I'm just

Leah Young [00:07:38] saying, sometimes I did pretty.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Sometimes weird things happen where you still won't reach out to the sister. You know what I mean? So I don't know.

Leah Young [00:07:45] I reached out to the sister and she told me about Paul. I believe that she was the one who told me about Paul.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] Okay, we'll go back to your story because.

Leah Young [00:07:53] So anyway, in the early days and weeks of this, I was messaging with my cousin. You know, it was like he became.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] And this is Paul.

Leah Young [00:08:01] This is Paul.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] He's joined us too. He's.

Guest [00:08:03] Hi, Paul.

Leah Young [00:08:04] So Paul was my Nicole and Steve and Paul and Kelty. And you kind of became a part of my support system because he was. Well, actually, I think you came in a little bit later on, but he was like just super high anxiety. Just like, this is so not good. And. And there was a lot of tension around that. And so, I mean, every day I'd be messaging Paul and just.

John Dehlin [00:08:36] Okay, wait, what. What was Paul's role in your life? Had you known he was an apostate? Like, what were your perceptions of Paul Prior? No, I mean, you thought he's a faithful Mormon.

Leah Young [00:08:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:48] So then what made you. How'd you find out he was different?

Leah Young [00:08:51] Kelty.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] Kelty. So you go to Kelty and Kelty says, what?

Leah Young [00:08:54] Paul's safe.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] Talk to Paul.

Leah Young [00:08:56] Paul, talk to Paul.

John Dehlin [00:08:56] Why Didn't Kelty talk to you?

Leah Young [00:08:58] I did talk to Kelty as well. I did talk to Kelty as well.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] But I think, what's the need for Paul, though?

Leah Young [00:09:03] So he was kind of feeding me, like, okay, you've read this now, you know. Or I would ask him a lot of questions and he's very.

John Dehlin [00:09:11] He was mentoring you?

Leah Young [00:09:12] He was mentoring me. And I would say, okay, well, what about this? Or, well, what about this? Or how did you deal with this? Or a lot of times, like, I'm just so sad. I just don't know if I'm ever going to be happy again. And so he would kind of help walk me through, okay, I'm learning more about this. What's a good resource for this? Or he would recommend books to learn. So he was kind of walking me through step by step, and then I'd be sobbing to Nicole. I remember one night I was, you know, Skype talking to Nicole and Steve in the middle of the night, just like, just crying so hard. And that was the time that I had reached out to you and just to say thank you, I was listening incessantly to the Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] What types of Mormon Stories episodes were useful at the time?

Leah Young [00:09:54] Oh, my gosh. Tom Phillips.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] Why?

Leah Young [00:09:58] Because he loved the church so much.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] Former stake president received the second anointing.

Leah Young [00:10:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:04] Lost his faith and then his family abandons him.

Leah Young [00:10:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:08] According to him.

Leah Young [00:10:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] Okay. Who else?

Leah Young [00:10:11] Hans Mattson. The Swedish Rescue. All of that.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] Former area authority from Sweden. After all that and a second anointing.

Guest [00:10:20] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:10:21] And again, as someone who loved the church, that made me feel very safe because I didn't know anything but the church and, you know, I. And. And. But I'm an honest person, you know, and so I'm learning these things and I'm like, what am I going to do? So it was really good to hear from Janine Jesperson Clark.

John Dehlin [00:10:43] Christine Jepsen Clark.

Leah Young [00:10:44] Christine Jepsen Clark.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] Yeah,

Leah Young [00:10:48] I have.

John Dehlin [00:10:49] So the faith transition stories were. Were big for you?

Leah Young [00:10:52] Were huge for me. Let me see the Family Ties Mormon story. That's a really, really good one. That was later on after there were some Daughters of Mormonism podcasts that I really liked. Yeah, Those are some of the ones that. I mean, I've listened almost to everyone by now. I mean, there were this.

John Dehlin [00:11:11] That's the Johnsons and the chick. It's just a shout out to them. So.

Cody Young [00:11:14] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] Yeah, that was when we did two couples.

Leah Young [00:11:17] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:18] Where the sisters were.

Cody Young [00:11:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] That was a married former Mission companions. And that's a great one, too.

Leah Young [00:11:24] That's such a good one.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:11:28] I mean, I just listened to him all day in my ear if I wasn't reading something. So that was kind of like in the beginning. And then do you want to kind of take over on how you were feeling during that time?

Cody Young [00:11:43] So, yeah, I think as Leah got further into it, I felt increasingly threatened. We had some heated discussions where there were emotions. I mean, emotions are high around this topic. Right. But it wasn't. There was certainly tension. We weren't fighting a lot over it, but there was tension there. I felt uncomfortable with her desire to explore. I felt really uncomfortable that she wasn't spending more time in the fair Mormon website trying to balance out what was happening. And. Then finally one day, she said to me, she said. She said, cody, listen, listen, listen. If the church is not true, would you want to know? And I thought, yeah, if the church isn't true, I would want to know that. I would want to know that. She said, do one thing. Just read the CES letter. I said, okay, I'll read the CES letter.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] And what did you feel before reading it?

Cody Young [00:12:49] Oh, angst. I was very anxious.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] What were you fearing?

Cody Young [00:12:52] Like, this is a landmine. I'm about to walk through a landmine, and I just hope that I can get to the other side unscathed and keep my family, you know, strong on the. On the covenant path, if you will. And so we did at night. We spent maybe a week or so at night together, reading. Reading the CES letter together, and then the letter to my wife. We read that together.

Leah Young [00:13:20] And he would. His palms would be sweaty. He would be like.

Cody Young [00:13:24] Yeah, I was having, like, a visceral reaction to what was going on, like, as we're reading.

Leah Young [00:13:29] And we had to go to every single footnote in the entire letter because.

Cody Young [00:13:40] It was so unbelievable. I could. I couldn't believe it. I, like, literally, I could not believe what was happening. But I was reading what I was seeing how at the age of 40, do I have no idea that what. No idea that Joseph practiced polygamy in this way, that he was. His relationship with his. And again, not that I can understand from the historical data exactly how his relationship with his wife was, but it clearly is. So. It was so different from how I was taught through the correlated church curriculum.

Leah Young [00:14:14] Things like that he lied to Emma.

Cody Young [00:14:16] I mean, there's just so. There's so much there that for those

John Dehlin [00:14:19] who haven't read it.

Cody Young [00:14:20] Yeah. I mean, so the issues that Leah has brought up, you know, the, the origins of the Church, the first vision account and the origins of the Book of Mormon and polygamy, polygamy in the early days of the Church and polyandry and the Book of Abraham and just, I mean, I felt in some ways so like duped, like so stupid. Like, how did I not even know about these things? But at the same time, for the last 15, 16 years, we've been so busy, we've been just at times in survival mode and we're trying to just follow the program. You know, it's just, it's a, it's a plug and chug. Just here we go. Just, you know, sit the kids in the road in the roller coaster car and off we go. Just stay in the car and we'll get to the end. It may be a topsy turvy, you know, adventure, but we'll get there. And now for the first time, I'm considering, like, well, is it possible, just, is it possible that there is data out there that I'm not aware of about the Church? The history isn't exactly as I've been told and I'm a father of teenagers, I'm a father of four children. And we've committed so much time of our lives to this point and our intention is from here on forward to continue to do the same. And now I'm having all of this real cognitive dissonance where I'm realizing that there's just so much I didn't know and that the things that I thought I knew were founded upon only partial truths or founded on history or evidence that had been displayed, portrayed and taught in very selective, specific faith promoting ways such that it became evident over time, over a very short period of time, that it wasn't dishonest what the church was doing to me and to my family to allow us to build our foundation upon partial truths, upon selective truths, upon selective history and retelling of certain facts to portray in a certain way. The betrayal began to set in and the hurt, you know, and the fear, just overwhelming fear, like, what are we going to do? How are we ever going to be happy? How are we ever going to raise moral children in this world, in this lost and forsaken world? What are we going to do? You know, it just, it was gut wrenching. I mean, I would just, we'd cry together. I'd hold Leah and she'd just sob. She'd sob because she was just so sad. We were both so sad and scared, but just so sad to come to the Realization, even in the beginning, for me, not necessarily that the church wasn't what it claimed to be, but just that there was all this information that might possibly lead me to that conclusion. Just that thought was just so, so heartbreaking.

Leah Young [00:17:34] Yeah. So he started looking with me at the information very slowly, making sure that he's really doing the church essays and that he's really doing a lot on the apologetics website, making sure that he's super balanced. Reading footnote. Okay, well, where did that resource come from? Well, who is that person, you know, going through all this very, very, very carefully? And I'll never forget last Christmas, we were wrapping presents on Christmas Eve, and we were listening to an interview given by this lovely couple, and they have a website called Truth is Restored Again. And they had an interview with one

Cody Young [00:18:13] of the Quorum of the twelve, with a general authority.

Leah Young [00:18:15] I don't think they stated with a general authority. They would not state the name. And they're talking about this interview, and they said something like. I think he was saying.

Cody Young [00:18:26] What they said is they were talking about the truth claims of the church. And this general authority said to them, in paraphrase, yeah, that one true church thing. The church PR department's always had a difficult time with that.

Leah Young [00:18:40] And Cody just.

Cody Young [00:18:42] Just broke down because I was like, general authority saying something like that. That just seems preposterous. I couldn't believe something like that would be said, because to me, it was my world. It was absolutely the one and only true church. How could a general authority not, you know, not agree with me on that

Leah Young [00:19:01] or just kind of so flippantly say, oh, yeah, the PR department hasn't done a great job.

Cody Young [00:19:05] Yeah, why is that? Why is that. Why does that. Why is that the job of the PR department? Truth is truth. You don't need department to help everybody see the truth.

Leah Young [00:19:14] And this beautiful couple, I mean, they detail out everything that they had tried and they tried and they couldn't believe it. And they couldn't believe it. And then they go and they sit with this general authority, and they're like, this is the moment, right? This is the moment where we get the answer, where our world isn't turned upside down again. And then he says that. So that was Christmas eve last year.

Cody Young [00:19:35] 2017.

Leah Young [00:19:36] Yeah, 2017. And it was just. Just really sad. But what happened is, after that point, the backfire effect set in for Cody.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] Tell us about that.

Cody Young [00:19:51] I just. I was so reluctant to believe that it would. It was possible. It just. I mean, how. How could. How could I. How could it Be is basically how I felt. I don't know how to describe it other than that it's not possible.

John Dehlin [00:20:04] I'll just say, if you look at a really good resource is the stages of grief. It's the Kubler Ross model stages of grief. And it was sort of constructed, you know, studying people who had someone die. But it turns out a faith crisis is a lot like a death. And so, you know, the first stage might be shock, and then it might, you know, you might have, you know, feelings of anger, you might have feelings of depression, but one of the stages of grief is, is bargaining, which is where you're trying to negotiate, or denial. Denial is another phase. So between denial and bargaining, you know, you have that initial shock, but it's not like, boom, you're out. It's more like, okay, this is too traumatic, this is too disruptive. Maybe I'll go back into denial and either go to apologetics or just ignoring or other sorts of self medicating, whatever it is working extra. You can't accept that it's happened. And so you go into either denial or bargaining, where you either try and stuff the genie back in the bottle or you try and use some sort of changing your faith or becoming more liberal or using apologetics to try and keep the inevitable from happening.

Cody Young [00:21:26] Yeah, yeah. So it was, it was that. It was. I feel horrible. And so that's the spirit departing. And this is Satan taking a hold of me. And this is dark and it's not good. And so I can't proceed any further because, you know, this is dark. I feel that the spirit has left me is how I would have characterized those first couple weeks of January 2018.

Leah Young [00:21:55] Yeah. So he sent me a note, a letter, an email, and he's just like, I'm done. I can't work, I can't sleep, I can't. I can't eat. And, you know, I'm like in the depths of despair. And it was right around the time that you and I had that conversation, we had talked on the phone and I just like cried. Right. Do you remember that? Like, just screamed. I think I screamed at you. Maybe not at you, but with you, towards you. And you just like, yeah, he did.

John Dehlin [00:22:27] You were lively.

Cody Young [00:22:28] Well, you were really gracious because I think Leah reached out just to thank you, John.

Leah Young [00:22:32] I had just reached out to you,

Cody Young [00:22:34] thank you for your podcast. They're really helpful and informative. And then you responded to her and were very gracious to her.

Leah Young [00:22:40] And so then, which I hadn't expected. And then I think I had messaged you, and I'm just like, probably sobbing, right? Just like, I can't believe this. My world is flying up all like, my kids, what are we gonna do? So you and I ended up on a call. And I just think I cried for an hour and a half. And you listened and you validated and you were just great. And I remember one thing that you said. I mostly remember me crying and being really upset. But then I remember you saying, this could be the greatest gift of your life. And I was like, I'm gonna hold on to that. Like, I don't believe it, but I'm gonna hold on. I'm gonna hold onto it. I don't believe it. Cause I just don't think I'm ever gonna be happy again. I'm just so sad. Like, I just want to be happy again. And Paul. Paul would say, like. Paul kept saying, like, it's going to take six months for you to feel any joy again. It's going to take. So I was holding on to that too, like, okay, maybe. Maybe I'll feel happy again in six months. You know, I don't. I don't. I hope, because John's smart and kind and he said. And he knows people who are dealing with all the time. And he said, this could be a gift. And Paul. Paul said, it's going to take six months. So I would hold on to that, you know. But then I got this email from Cody maybe a couple days after you and I had talked. And he's like, I'm done. I'm living my life in the church. I mean, it was absolute. It was like, I am not doing this. I am not going there. I am. This is so painful. The spirit has left me.

Cody Young [00:24:23] Done, Done learning these things.

Leah Young [00:24:24] Done.

Guest [00:24:24] Learning.

Cody Young [00:24:25] Not done in our marriage.

Leah Young [00:24:25] No, no, I'm not done in our marriage. Like, I am closing the door on

John Dehlin [00:24:30] this kind of double down.

Leah Young [00:24:32] He totally did.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] What was that? Like? What were you thinking?

Cody Young [00:24:39] I've got to be the faithful and I've got to. I've got to. I've got to be strong. Leah needs somebody who's going to stay strong. And I need to be in tune with the spirit. And the spirit is leaving me when I read these things. And so I can't continue to learn this and read this because I'm losing the spirit.

John Dehlin [00:24:55] And the. And that is something so powerful and ingenious and insidious. When the church teaches us that contention is of the devil, and they teach us that the Holy Ghost is the same thing as Good, positive feelings like joy and warmth and peace and comfort, and then they associate Satan or the adversary with sadness or anger or confusion, Right? Then that locks us in to an orthodox behavior pattern and an orthodox set of beliefs, because anything that doesn't feel good must be of the adversary. But the fact is, when you're confused, when you have been fooled, when you've been duped, when you've been let down, when your life has been turned upside down, when the entire foundation of your life is now crumbling, that is always going to feel awful. But that can actually be sort of creative destruction in the sense that, yes, it feels terrible, like, to have a baby. Yes, it feels terrible for a chick to break out of the shell. It's not fun, it's work. And it's painful and excruciating, but that can be the pain. Just like with lifting weights. That can be the pain and the discomfort that leads to incredible awakening and growth and opportunity. But by associating any feeling of discomfort or sadness or anger or confusion with the adversary, it stunts growth. It limits our ability. Because those emotions, it turns out, if you've seen the movie Inside out, you know that we have sadness for a reason. We have anger for a reason. We have confusion for a reason. Those are healthy emotions that have evolved with us over millennia because they teach us things, they alert us to things, they teach us lessons. They help us grow. And those emotions are crucial. And so by walling off, by firewalling and then condemning and stigmatizing an entire range of emotions, the church can keep people locked in a very unorthodox, immature, and unhealthy mindset that keeps them from growing. And I think that's kind of what you felt privy to.

Cody Young [00:27:16] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:27:17] And I knew that right when I got it, I knew. Yeah. That it feels horrible to think that of all that we've ever learned could be not true. And I knew that he was just scared. And it actually pushed me into learning, like, really kind of going into podcasts that talk about the bite model, that talk about sort of how the programming works in other religions. Right. And what that looks like. And so that I could really kind of understand what was going on with Cody. And, you know, some of our hope for this is that we can really, in a, offer some tools for people. Right. Because I think this is very, very common when someone goes and they're married and one person is learning all this stuff and having some different thoughts and views, and the other person's really scared and threatened, and maybe they learn a little bit or maybe they don't, but they double down in their belief, Right? And it's called the backfire effect. And so I did learn about that. And then at the time, I had had a session with you, and you shared how common that was. And your recommendation to me was to create. You had said that there's some. I don't know her name, but there's some famous therapist who said, everyone's married three times. They're either married.

John Dehlin [00:28:44] This is Esther Perel. Esther Perel, she wrote a book called the State of Affairs, where it talks about affairs. And in that book, she says, well, you go ahead and say it.

Leah Young [00:28:54] Everyone's going to be married three times.

John Dehlin [00:28:56] At least three times you're going to

Leah Young [00:28:57] be married to the same person or to a different person because you change. The conditions of your marriage change. And this was a time where, at that point, I did not believe that the church was true. I did not. I had been incessantly reading for over a month, and I could support him because I was committed to the marriage, but I couldn't betray myself because I was taught to be honest. I was taught to have integrity. And it's not having integrity to pretend like something is true when I. From everything I can see from all this massive amount of data, to me, it's no longer true. And I can't go against that inner value, you know, but I can support him and love him. And so you had said, create a new marriage proposal. And I did. And I think that it would be helpful maybe for me to read that, because I think that it was the turning point. It was the turning point because he had gone into this place where he's not going to talk to me about this. I'm really scared because I'm like, oh, gosh, like, what does this mean for our family, our children? Like, this is going to be difficult, and this is going to be lonely, and I'm okay with that. But, like, I just. I just wanted to do everything the best I knew how. And this. Everything was new, and I didn't know what was the best thing to do. And this tool was so helpful for me and for us to get him to a place where he felt safe again. And so would you be okay if I read that?

John Dehlin [00:30:43] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:30:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] And I'll just say, as just a precursor, that what I was noticing with Lee and Cody is that as Cody retrenched and kind of went back to the sort of shutting off the information, becoming more orthodox, Leeah was getting more and more angry and more and more strident and more and more. Oh, it's a cold. Nah, burn it down.

Leah Young [00:31:02] And.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] Ah. And you have to be really careful whether it's with your spouse, your children, your parents, believing family and friends. You can do this dynamic where you just push each other farther and farther apart, where you become more angry and strident, they become more devout and committed and orthodox. And it's completely counterproductive to the ultimate goals that you want, which is to come together. It's not whether you leave the church or not, believe or not. It's that, can you together be unified in your relationship? Can you keep the marriage strong? Can you keep it from fracturing? Because if you push each other too far apart, it splits down the middle. So this intervention was my best Hail Mary pass at helping Leah stopped. Stop pushing Kody so far apart that the marriage was gonna fracture.

Leah Young [00:31:49] Yeah. Because I was like, yeah, all of that. That's exactly right. And I was like, well, just listen to this. We'll just read this. We'll just do this, you know? And it was just, like, pushing him away. Yeah. And so you had said, the best thing you can do is to create this new marriage proposal and actually give him no information, ask him to read nothing, like, help him feel safe. He's just feeling really scared and really threatened. So I wrote this. I'll read it real quick. It says, dear Cody, I love you. And above all else, it just. It brings back so many emotions, you

Guest [00:32:27] know,

Leah Young [00:32:30] it was such a hard time. I hope I'll be able to read it. Okay. It says, I love you, and above all else, I want to keep our family together.

John Dehlin [00:32:42] And.

Leah Young [00:32:42] And I was scared, you know, So it goes into talking about how, you know, everyone's married three times to the same person or a different person. And I said that the foundation for our first marriage has collapsed. Collapsed because it was the church that was the foundation. So I said, I have a proposal for a new foundation for. For a foundation for a new marriage together. I want to have even a better marriage than we did before. And I believe. I think, more accurately, I would say at that point, I had a lot of hope that we can make that happen. I would like to. But I said, but for me, our mutual foundation or common bond can no longer be rooted in Mormonism. I said, here's my proposal for our new foundation. Number one, unconditional love. And this means that I don't love you because of your relationship to the church, and you don't love me because of my relationship to the church. Moving forward, our love, respect, Admiration, appreciation, et cetera is not based on if the church is true or not true. I love you for you and you love me for me. Fidelity. We're going to be faithful to each other because our most important core values are still intact and they're both important to us. Honesty with healthy, safe boundaries. Right now we're both feeling unsafe about talking to one another about church things. There are many layers and years of pain for both of us for different reasons. Therefore, a boundary around religious discussions is what is going to be best for us both right now. Meaning we don't. We just can't talk about it. Emotional intimacy. There are many ways to develop emotional intimacy that are not religious based. I promise that we will work to strengthen those during a phase where we're staying away from the realm of intimacy about religion. The timeout rule. This means that we are engaged if we're engaging in an argument or if one person is somewhat feeling out of control. Either of us can call a timeout and we'll be respectful to the person who's called a timeout. Does this sound familiar, John?

John Dehlin [00:35:04] Yeah, because Margi and I were having to implement that rule ourselves at the time. I got that from a coach and I shared that with you.

Leah Young [00:35:10] Yeah, it was so helpful. So we'll take a time out and we'll honor that. We'll separate, we'll calm down, we'll do soothing activities and we'll give. Give one another space for however long it takes before coming back to the discussion. This might be hours or it might be days. Love of our children. This will never change. It's a priority for both of us. I now believe that our difference can actually help provide a safer environment for our children to ask and explore and share. I believe that through this we will become closer to our children. And statistics show that over 50% of kids are leaving the church today. And so having a mixed faith marriage can actually be be really good for them. Freedom to talk and get help. I need to be able to talk about what I'm going through so that I can move through this in a healthy way. It's quite impossible for me to share my experiencing, my experiences without. Without mentioning how you factor in. You are intertwined throughout every detail of this experience. I have talked to John about these details because he is safe. He's a disconnected person who does not know us and he's not a part of our daily life. And I ask that you respect me and my privacy and allow me to get the help that I need to work through this. Similarly, if you want to talk to someone, I want you to know that you can always talk about me and whatever details you choose to share with a safe person. I want you to know that if you will marry me again under these new terms, please, please consider what I have to share. And I want you to add any additional terms that you feel like are important to consider. I want you to know that I do not believe in a plan of salvation that would break a family apart when any person of that family lives an honorable, upstanding, honest, charitable life, but can no longer believe in a religion because they have sought to pursue truth as they see it. Because of this, I am not fearful about my eternal salvation or ability to be with my family forever. When we talk to the children, I want you to know that I will not attempt to convince them of anything. I will also not give them more information than they are asking for if they ask. I am committed to explaining things in reasonable terms and responsible terms that are age appropriate. We will both have to be able to tell the kids what we think and how we feel. I am committed to the kids having their own journeys. If they feel like either of us are trying to control or manipulate them, they will resent that person and be pushed away. Moving forward, I am committed to creating a safe environment for you. For now, I will be attending church with you and with our family. I want to be there with you and with the children. This may or may not change, and some weeks I might need to take a break because it's really hard right now. But my desire is to be supportive of you and for our family. I've shared some resources with you. But please, please, please, before I stop sharing, read these couple. I just had to get a couple of other things in there and I said, take your time to consider these things. I believe that we can agree on these principles and any that you add to guide us into a new phase of our marriage. I have so much hope and I love you so much. So I just brought up, you know, it was just so difficult, you know, it's so scary to be in the darkest place of your life and then to realize you can't share that with the closest person to you. And knowing that the only way to keep it, to save, to do this, the right way, would be to cut that. But I knew I needed to do that, you know, because it was my greatest hope at having my marriage be as healthy as possible.

Writing a Letter to Reconnect as Partners

John Dehlin [00:39:07] Everybody's responding that they love this letter and they want a copy. So she, Leah will be Sharing. Lee and Cody will be sharing a copy of this letter.

Leah Young [00:39:14] We have several letters in the show.

John Dehlin [00:39:16] Notes. Yeah, but that was a beautiful letter. Cody, what was it like to read that from your retrenched orthodox, sort of shutting off your mind, perspective, like, could have gone many ways.

Cody Young [00:39:32] Yeah, it could have been. Sorry. The defenses all came down. It just all. I mean, I don't know why, I don't know how, but it just all crumbled. My defenses crumbled at that point. And I don't remember my exact response to her, but to me it was beautiful. To me, it made sense. I thought it was a wonderful way to proceed forward in the situation that we were in. And I've always valued Leah immensely for her good judgment, for her desire to do good and to be good. And it was so clear that that's all she was trying to do. So it was. It was. I don't know why, I don't know why I reacted that way. I could have just been more hurt, more sad that now I was going to be in a mixed faith marriage, which is not the plan and this isn't the way I envisioned my life. I could have become more entrenched, but it didn't happen that way. I felt less. I didn't feel threatened. I felt safe. I felt like it was clear that she honored me. And I wanted her to know above all that I do honor her and that I respect her, that she has freedom and agency to choose to live how she wants to live. I can't control her. I have no desire to control her. Is it what I want? No. But I honor her. And so I think that was my response, is that this is beautiful. I'm 100% on board with this. I think this is the healthiest way to proceed forward.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] And what was that like, to get that response, Leah?

Leah Young [00:41:36] Oh, I was just so grateful, you know, I was just like, okay, I can, like, I can do this, you know, I can. I can do everything I can to like, honor my truth and honor him. I'm like, I will do whatever it takes. Like, I will, you know, I will go to the ends of the earth to make this work and to make it work for our children. And I just, I was so grateful. I mean, it was just like, it was a good day because, you know, there were so many sad days and it was a good day. It was a really good day.

John Dehlin [00:42:11] So just, just the anatomy or the, the pillars of that letter, there are a few things that just come to my mind. One is make them feel Safe. When they feel safe and loved, they're going to let their defenses down and their hearts are going to open. Whereas if they feel threatened, they're going to put up walls and put up armor. And then the second is focus on common values. When someone leaves the church, they usually are still 99% the same person. They still believe in honesty and integrity and marriage and children and health and wellness, etc. So in the letter, focus on what unites you on reassuring the other person you're not going to go all of a sudden, go crazy and start becoming alcoholic and a drug user and cheating on the marriage, et cetera. Reinforce the common values that you still share, even outside of the orthodox perspective. So build on common values and beliefs and then if you can, make sacrifices and accommodations. I love that part about you'll still go to church with them for as long as you can until you can't. You're gonna be patient, you're gonna be supportive. All those types of accommodations. Instead of rushing to not pay the tithing, rushing to start bringing beer in the home, rushing to experiment sexually or drugs or whatever it is, do all that you can to make the other person not feel threatened than to say, I will. I needed space and time. I will give you space and time to work things through. I'm not gonna make big lifestyle choices that feel very alarming and threatening and then end with just a recommitment sort of saying, this can be a new birth, a refreshing new birth that even gives us a better opportunity. And that, that little bit about the mixed faith family is so true. More and more and more, everyone's going to have a mixed faith family or they're going to be leaving the church. It's just, this is an epidemic. And so it's a really good play to just say so many kids are leaving the church. What a better way to model in our family that love transcends everything. To show that mommy can believe one thing and daddy can believe another and the kids can believe what they believe. But we're all gonna put love first. And ultimately, isn't that a Mormon concept? To love, love one another and to put family first. And so those are just some of the components. And I was just thrilled that it worked because at the time I was just grasping for straws.

Leah Young [00:44:50] So helpful. It was such a turning point for us.

Guest [00:44:53] Yeah.

Leah Young [00:44:55] But that, that kind of led Cody into going back into the rabbit hole. So, I mean, it was just. But then we were both really in it. I think before Cody was like questioning the integrity of every single person who was like, maybe on a podcast or like, well, is this, you know, I mean, just in that space of like, are these anti. Are these. Is it true? Like, how can it be true? And like, going through Thinker of Thoughts is really. He does. Jonathan Streeter, he does some great videos on understanding how your brain is suffering. And like, all of that, the bite mob, like, all of that was so gripping for both of us at the beginning, especially I think, for Cody feeling, you know, the patriarch, feeling the priesthood, sort of need to lead. And, you know, I mean, I think there was that extra burden to make sure that we all got back safely. You know, we followed the plan and. And, you know, he was so committed and he was so. I think that was a play more for him. But after this letter, we both were just. It was like nothing else. We didn't want to do anything else but learn and read nothing. Just podcasts in our ears, books in our fingers. It was just taught. All of our discussions centered around it. But what then became the most painful, the most painful part of this by far? I mean, you. You think, you know, I, I have thoughts of I could lose. I could, you know, I am going to become a threat to all of these people just by leaving. I mean, my family, maybe they'll. I don't know what they'll do. Maybe they won't want to see me. Maybe they want to be involved with my children, you know, our friends in the ward and my kids friends. There's all of those. But what trumped all of that and knowing that it would affect my business. What trumped all of that was, how are we going to tell our kids? Like, if I, whenever I look back on this think about was like, I hate. I think it is so deeply immoral that I'm going to have to sit and tell my children this. And I know that I am going to break their heart. And we would go through these scenarios, like, how could we. What are the options? Like, it was a circular conversation. We would shake and weep in the fetal position in bed, just like, I can't believe we're gonna have to do this. And is there any way around it? Is there any way. Could we stay? Is it possible? Could we. Could we. How could we work this? Could we. Could we stay in and still be honest? But then that's going to become a problem for, like, how are we going to, you know, how are we going to do this? And the Mormon transitions podcasts were really, really helpful where mental health professionals walk you through what are age appropriate ways to share these things with your kids. We clung onto those Mormon transitions podcasts. They were like gold. And, you know, in talking with you, you know, professional help from people who are aware of how to navigate something like this. And that was the deepest, most painful part of it all, wouldn't you say?

Cody Young [00:48:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leah Young [00:48:47] And just knowing how do you tell

Cody Young [00:48:50] your kids, you know, when you have been guiding them down this path for their whole life and now you're going to come to them and say, you know, this, we've got to change course. And it's a significant course correction. And. But I still initially wasn't at that point yet. You know, I was just, okay, Mormon stories podcast, okay. Different podcasts, okay. Reading more, trying to understand more, listening to these Mormon transitions. Because I knew, if nothing else, it's messier than I thought it was. At a minimum, right? There's a messier history than I was ever aware of.

Deciding to Leave the Church Together

Leah Young [00:49:28] And so Cody hadn't, at this point, he hadn't come to any conclusion. This conversation is just like, if we're going to proceed as honest people, how does that look in our family? It wasn't, we're leaving the church. No, no. Cody had never even said to me anything along the lines of, I don't believe it's true. Nothing. Like, he was so cautious. I mean, he had read so much and listened to so much that it was, like, fascinating to me that he was still not able to come or willing or capable of making any statements, any conclusions. And I honored that. I just said, we will take all the time you need. We will get to a place where you feel good before we say anything to the kids. There is no rush here. We've been in it our whole lives. There's no need. We're gonna wait till we feel ready. Until then, they don't need to know anything. And we just wanna do this the best way we can. That's how we are. We wanna raise the kids the best way we can. We wanna tell them about this the best way we can. We just. But we would just. The turmoil of knowing weighed so heavily on us that it literally. I've never felt my heart, like, ache. Like, physically, I would go through my days with just. I would just cry, you know, just like, we are gonna have to literally sit in front of our kids and break their heart if we want to be honest.

John Dehlin [00:51:04] Because what. What were your kids. How were they enjoying church? What was their relationship to the church? You know, at this moment when they weren't aware of anything what was the church meaning to them? How were they engaging the church?

Cody Young [00:51:19] So at this point they were 14, 11, 9 and 6, 5, 8 and 5. But so the older two were more involved in the church. In the young women's activity days. Brinley, who was 14, was very, very much involved. She was in seminary, she was at mutual every week service projects. She was there. She was in, you know, the class presidencies for the young women's and fascisms for the dead. And yeah, we, I mean we were.

John Dehlin [00:51:49] Were they loving it? Were they enjoying it?

Cody Young [00:51:51] Yeah, I mean, as far as we could tell. Yeah, I mean it was.

Leah Young [00:51:53] Yeah, they didn't know anything different.

John Dehlin [00:51:55] I mean, it was just like you guys, right?

Leah Young [00:51:57] Yeah, it was, it was like there

Cody Young [00:51:59] were grumblings on Sunday mornings sometimes. Yeah, it's normal. And, but, but for the most part we were always there. If there was an activity. We all went, the kids wanted to go. We weren't feeling like we were having to drag them to do things with within the church. We all were involved in enjoying it and all in. So that was, you know, and we were constantly, as we've discussed, trying to mold the trajectory of the future. You know, here's where we're going. Oh, I have three siblings who returned from missions, two sisters and a brother, and we flew each of them out here to our home for a week because we wanted them to be with our girls. We wanted our girls to be touched by them, influenced by them. To be to hear the mission stories and to, you know, have that dream and aspiration of serving a mission like aunt so and so or uncle so and so and so that, I mean, we were trying to do our best to set them on the path, you know, the trajectory that would take them to the, to the temple, marriage and beyond.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] Yeah. So that was the next frontier, huh, Is figuring out what to say to your kids. Well, that's fortuitous because we're like right at the end of the four hour limit that Facebook Live gives us to do an episode. So we're about four hours in, minus that little 10 minute interruption where it's time to bring on Brynlee. So should we tell. Why don't we just talk about your decision to have Brinley come on Mormon stories and what, what people are about to hear. We're going to take a quick break and then we'll relaunch a new Facebook Live stream and tell us, tell us what we're about to hear and how you got to feeling like you wanted to go this route with Your story,

Leah Young [00:53:52] the first thing, I don't know how what exactly we're at, but there are a few. Oh, wait, was the Jack Welch after. Was after this. Okay, okay, so, okay, wait. What was the question, Brinley?

Cody Young [00:54:08] I'll answer.

Leah Young [00:54:08] Oh, yeah.

Cody Young [00:54:09] So eventually, eventually, as we'll discuss, we get to the point where our feelings about the church are very. Are more closely aligned. And then the discussion is, we've got to tell the kids. And everybody has to approach that situation in their own way. Right. Every family is unique, and by no means are we the example, but as we talked about what to do, how do we do it? Leah mentioned, do we just stay in the church, raise them in the church, let them go off to college, and then kind of find their own way? And I came back to. We both came back to honesty. We have to be honest with them. What if someday Brinley grows up, marries the return missionary in the temple, and then she stumbles upon this, goes through her own Mormon faith crisis, and heaven forbid, her husband says, I'm out. I need a faithful wife in the church. And she loses her marriage and her family, and then she comes to us and we say, oh, well, yeah, we knew this. We just didn't tell you. Do you know what I'm saying? I couldn't live with that kind of guilt.

Leah Young [00:55:06] I couldn't live for three weeks. I mean, it was hard for me that time from finding out. I mean, every day was hard for me. So, like, we would try and bring up these scenarios where, okay, well, what if we don't tell them? And then what would that look like? But the truth is, is like, I felt dishonest in my own home with my own children, because it's dishonest to not be honest, you know? And so I think we knew that that couldn't be a possibility, but we were trying to explore all these avenues that felt so much more comfortable than just being honest because. But we always kept arriving back at, there's no way. How do you get around honesty in the right way with integrity intact? How does that happen?

Cody Young [00:55:55] But hopefully the next segment, we can talk about how we've done that as a family and how. And Brinley can share her experience of what that was like, because she's been remarkably mature, in her opinion, through this. This whole process. It's been really, really hard for her in unique ways that. That we can't quite explain, but hopefully she can.

Parenting Through a Faith Transition

Leah Young [00:56:14] But what else I'm excited to go into, though, is sort of how, from a parenting perspective, we kind of moved from a place of so much fear about losing the church. I mean, it was. I was, like, gripped with fear about going into, you know, we are not, you know, there's the church and the world and, like. And I've always been such an intentional parent, and values are so important to me. And sort of, how did we journey from feeling so fearful to losing the church into feeling like we've become better parents than we could have been? Our family has gone through something that has made us so much closer, so much healthier, so much happier. Our marriage has changed, our relationship with our kids has changed, and that's sort of the journey that we'll go on. How did we get from sobbing in our bed, dark days, just gripped with fear and sadness into the place that we're at now, which is completely different. It's just completely different.

John Dehlin [00:57:23] And tell our audience really quickly what you're about to see. Audience is Brinley young, 15 years old. 15 years old. She is going to tell her perspective on this whole experience. She was 14 years old when. When all of this erupted in her family. You know, some people might, oh, this exploitative or, oh, it's just a teenager or whatever. This isn't. This isn't sort of just coming out of. How do we, you know, cover new territory? You know? You know, so what was your decision as parents that made you feel like you wanted to maybe talk to Brinley? Or was it Brinley's idea? Like, what. How did this come about that Brinley became interested in an interview? And why would you allow that to happen really briefly in just one or two minutes here?

Leah Young [00:58:09] Okay, so. Well, the experience was incredibly traumatic for Brinley. Devastating. And she'll go into that, and I'm sure it'll be a bit emotional. It was very, very devastating. And she received help. She received counseling from your wife, Margi, which was just everything to her. And she, you know, and we had Mormon stories, but there wasn't a lot of kids her age going through this. You know, she. She had talked to a few kids, and that was so helpful. But it was like, if we could just. If there was a child, right, who. And she felt that if there was a child who had been going through this, like, what would she have given to hear that voice? And so she actually, when she found out we were going to do this, she asked to be on it, and she wanted to be on it. And Cody was very worried about her being on it, and he didn't want her to be on it. And we had a conversation here in the great room and she cried and she said, because he's so worried about the backlash and what could happen. And she just cried and she just said, dad, I can help people. I can help people. And if I can help people, then I'll take whatever criticism comes my way because I can make a difference for people.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] And so in just a few minutes, we will be relaunching this next segment of this epic interview with Cody, Leah and Brinley Young, where Brinley is going to talk about the faith crisis from her standpoint. And then we're all going to talk about how this family, this wonderful family, has moved from fear into joy and how this faith crisis has in fact become a gift for all of them. So don't go away. Stay tuned to the Mormon Stories podcast Facebook feed. Stay tuned to your ipods, your iPhones, whatever you have. We'll be right back with more goodness from Leah, Cody and Brinley Young. Thanks everyone for tuning in so far. You've made it a great episode. Hi to Julie Steenbeckers Johnson. She just joined us and thank you guys for a wonderful several hours so far.

Leah Young [01:00:18] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:00:19] All right, see you guys soon.

Guest [01:00:31] Foreign.

John Dehlin [01:00:36] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Guest [01:01:04] Take your time, clear your mind There is a light beyond the shore Calling to you once more this is the life you're making There is a love for the taking it's alright these guys don't have to be you Baby, you're somebody new when the lines are drawn in Friends a few you it's all right to be you. It's all right to be you Shame, disbelief It says who you wanna be. A part of you I know you feel it too.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.