Introduction and Context for Bednar's Press Club Talk

clip [00:00:00] Foreign

John Dehlin [00:00:04] and welcome to a very special edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 27, 2022 and we are here for what I think is going to be an exciting few hours of discussion, review and analysis. Recently, Mormon apostle, prophet, sir and revelator, David. Is it L. David Bednar. Is it David? David A. Bednar presented to the National Press club in Washington D.C. you can

Radio Free Mormon [00:00:35] guess what the A stands for.

John Dehlin [00:00:37] And there's RFM joining in. Hey, rfm. And, and as we'll be discussing, this is the first time a Mormon Church representative has addressed the national press Club in 22 years. And we're going to be talking about why that is, but it was basically an hour ish long presentation and we're here to kind of break it down. This is, this is not just going to be looking for the faux pas or the gotchas, although we are going to be talking a little bit about some of those. It's a little bit broader. We want to do kind of a thoughtful, fair minded analysis of kind of the church's positioning.

John Dehlin [00:01:18] So as I, as I reviewed this talk from Elder Bednar, what I realized is that they talk about the threefold mission of the church, which is perfecting the saints, redeeming the dead, proclaiming the gospel. So they talk about the missionary program, they talk about church education system and they try to address controversial topics like blacks in the priesthood, women in the church, LGBTQ issues, etc, and it's an important moment to sort of speak, sort of analyze in 2022 how the Mormon Church is spinning through PR, what it's about and, and its state of affairs and how it views the future of the church. So that's what we're going to be trying to do today. We're really excited to have with us in studio our dear colleague and co host, Gerardo Sumano to help us with this analysis.

Guest [00:02:09] Hey, Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:02:10] Hey everyone.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] You did a lot of the, the early analysis on this. Yeah, thanks, Gerardo.

Guest 2 [00:02:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] We also have Jen in studio. Hey Jen.

Guest 3 [00:02:20] Hi everybody.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] Thanks for joining us, Jen. It's always good to have you, of course, and we're thrilled that Radio Free Mormon is willing to join us from an undisclosed bunker location somewhere in the Pacific Northwest. Is that right, Radio Free Mormon?

Radio Free Mormon [00:02:35] Well, I've moved to Ukraine, but yes, other than that, everything else is correct.

John Dehlin [00:02:39] Perfect. All right, Radio Free Mormon, anything you want to say before we jump in?

Radio Free Mormon [00:02:45] No, I'm just delighted to be here. Thank you for the invitation. I look forward to the discussion. I Think it's going to be great.

John Dehlin [00:02:51] All right, well, thanks, rfm well, let's go ahead and dive in. So, yeah, you can go to the National Press Club's website to see, you know, their, their headline Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Elder David A. Bednar to speak at luncheon Thursday, which technically was yesterday. And so what we thought we'd do is just start with an introduction and we're just going to play different clips. We're going to play almost all of Bednar's presentation and we're going to stop it and react to it as we go. And then we're going to also play the Q and A. And the big question for today is will we be able to cover it all today or will we need to sort of do his presentation as a part one and then the Q A is a part two?

John Dehlin [00:03:47] And we're just going to see how much time we have. We've also invited some of you viewers or listeners to join us to get your analysis. So at a certain point, maybe at the end of part one, we'll, we'll bring on a few of you to give your own analysis. And in the Description of the YouTube and Facebook description is where you can click a link to actually join here and like in a call in show, make sure your video and your audio are working. Please remove yourself if your video and audio aren't clearly working. All right, so let's jump into the introduction to this important event and then of course, we welcome our viewers on YouTube and Facebook.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] We're going to be monitoring your comments and we're going to try and incorporate them as well. We've got Gerardo and Jen here to help with that. So let's go ahead and dive in. Here we go.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:04:40] For the first time in nearly 50 years, the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints on April 18 opened its Kensington, Maryland temple to curious non members. Since then, more than 100,000 people have visited the newly renovated temple and thousands more are expected before the tour ends on June 11. On August 14, following its rededication, the sacred space will once again close to those who are not members of the faith.

Video Clip 1 [00:05:06] For most people in the capital region, the temple, whose white and gold spires just outside and above the Capitol Beltway, is both a landmark and a mystery. A bit like the religion itself, the Church of Latter day Saints counts 16.8 million people worldwide among its members. In the United States, the church is the fourth largest Christian denomination with more than 6.7 million members. It has also become a force in the humanitarian world.

Video Clip 1 [00:05:32] Last year, its members engaged in nearly 4,000 humanitarian projects in 188 countries, expending 906 million and contributing 6.8 million hours of volunteer service in areas such as vaccine distribution, clean water and sanitation, and educational initiatives.

Church Membership Numbers and PR Strategy

John Dehlin [00:05:50] All right, so to begin with, you know, some things, you know, there are obviously this, this press moment, this PR moment is clearly to coincide with the, the refurbishing of the Washington D.C. temple. That's interesting to me because my wife's parents, Margi's parents, lived in D.C. and joined the church as the result of visiting the Washington D.C. temple open house back in the 70s. So this is what literally brought Margi's parents into the church, which brought Margi into the church, which then allowed me to meet and marry Marg and Marky and I were married in the D.C. temple. So I, for many reasons, this is, this whole thing is kind of near and dear to my heart.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] The church is clearly seeing this as an opportunity to be on the global stage to talk about what's going on. The first thing that just really jumped out to me about what was just said is, is some of these numbers. 16.8 million members worldwide, 6.7 million members in the United States and, and the fourth largest Christian church in the U.S. maybe. Should we begin and say any, any thoughts or reactions to those numbers?

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:12] Yeah, I can go. So, I mean, we know that a lot of the church membership is inactive church. The church doesn't know where they are. And really the people that show up to church is a very small percentage of, of those numbers. Elder Bedner is going to reveal a couple other numbers later on his talk that you know, make, make you kind of think, okay, is it really 17 million active members? I mean, they're not claiming they're active.

Radio Free Mormon [00:07:42] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:07:43] But that's. What would someone that hears that statistic outside the church would think.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] Yeah, yeah, like, like by best estimates, there's about three to four active Mormon worldwide. And when I say active attending church once a month, maybe a third of those are actual temple recommend holders who are paying tithing. And in large, in many of these large countries like Mexico and Brazil, like there's a huge discrepancy between the number of members the church claims and the number of people who self identify as Mormon within the country, like in Brazil and Mexico and the inactivity rates in Latin America in the Philippines and in, in Western Europe and in Asia, the activity rates are like 10%. So at best the church has 3 to 4 million active members. So I guess, you know, what do you think, panel? Is it. Is it dishonest for the church? The church knows this. Is it dishonest for the church to claim 17 million members, Jen?

Guest 3 [00:08:45] I believe so.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] You think that's dishonest?

Guest 3 [00:08:49] It's misleading and it's dishonest, I would say.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] All right, our family, we'd love to get your thoughts here. You're muted.

Radio Free Mormon [00:08:58] Probably for the best anyway. I was trying to do some research and see about that. No, I think this is a good example of what we're going to find throughout is that the positives about the church are going to be extremely puffed up and overdone and nothing negative mentioned about the church by Elder Bednar at any time. The best face will be Ford. The 16.8 million is a big number, but then I was kind of surprised to hear that it's only the fourth largest denomination in the United States.

John Dehlin [00:09:32] What would the other ones be? I'm looking it up right now.

Radio Free Mormon [00:09:36] Well, I think Catholicism, probably.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:39] Maybe Episcopalian, maybe Seventh Day Adventists are pretty big, too.

Radio Free Mormon [00:09:44] I was trying to look that up, too. That's when I was muted and I was trying to look it up. And I've got this big chart from Wikipedia that doesn't really help a lot.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Okay. Yeah. So I'm guessing Catholic Church, maybe First Baptist Church or something like Evangelical Christianity, if they count that as one big church. But anyway, Jen says it's misleading. And rfm, you're saying they're putting their best foot forward but not being fully honest. Right. I wonder if that's going to be a theme throughout. It is this presentation is not being fully honest.

Radio Free Mormon [00:10:18] Right.

John Dehlin [00:10:18] Is that being too hard, though? Is that being unfair? Like, is it. Is it unfair to expect a church in a PR moment to. To do anything other than just put their best foot forward? I mean, isn't that what any of us would do? If I'm in the Open Stories foundation and I'm talking about how, you know, the status of the osf, would I be talking about the good and the bad, or would I just do talk about the good?

Radio Free Mormon [00:10:43] If you want to be perceived as being honest, you'll mention some negatives.

Guest 3 [00:10:48] Yeah, I agree with that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:51] Yeah, I agree.

Guest [00:10:52] Okay.

clip [00:10:54] All right.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] Well, the other thing that's kind of interesting is there that in the opening salvo, they're wanting to mention that the church is a humanitarian force. And this is going to be mentioned a lot later. What do you guys think about kind of the church being characterized as a humanitarian Force. I think that's what's bizarre about that, is that later, Elder Bednar is going to literally say, we're not primarily a humanitarian organization.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:22] So that's kind of. I. I didn't think about that until now. That's kind of ironic that those are leading. Oh, go ahead, Gerardo.

Guest [00:11:28] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:29] Well, I think we should wait to hear what Elder Bender says and the numbers he gives us and. And the statistics. But I think a theme that is gonna come or that came to my mind was like, yeah, this number sounds really impressive. That's amazing. All the stuff that they're doing. But then this. This number that Elder Oaks mentioned once in 2016, about 40 million being the average amount of money that the church spends, keep coming to my mind. So then I did an analysis, and we will.

John Dehlin [00:11:59] Legit. Yeah, we'll cover that.

Radio Free Mormon [00:12:01] But.

Guest 2 [00:12:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:12:03] Yeah. So everyone stay tuned about that.

Guest 3 [00:12:06] Talk about that later.

Radio Free Mormon [00:12:07] One small quibble I had was with the introduction where they're talking about the temple and talking about it as a sacred space and that it's open to the public now, and that this sacred space will then close to the public upon its rededication, which is going to be in August. And the thought that crossed my mind was, well, not exactly, because it's not a sacred space when the public can come in. It's only a sacred space when it's dedicated, and it will only become a sacred space when it's rededicated. But I think that's a way of making it sound more like the church is more inclusive and accepting of people coming into its sacred spaces, when I think technically that's not accurate.

John Dehlin [00:12:48] Interesting point. Thanks, rfm.

Guest 2 [00:12:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] All right, let's go to the next. Let's go ahead and go to the next clip.

clip [00:12:58] But it's not without controversy. The church wrestles with unflattering depictions of the faith in popular culture, including reality shows focused on fundamental sex that embrace polygamy, or plural marriage, a practice disavowed by the church in 1890 and again in 1904. And it wrestles with its own soul, struggling in recent years with its relationship with LGBTQ members and their place within the faith.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] So what I. What I thought was interesting about this is just this desire to really separate the church from polygamy by saying that polygamy is disavowed twice. Yeah, twice.

Radio Free Mormon [00:13:36] Why did they have to do it a second time? One wonders, 14 years after the first time.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] Yeah. Anybody? Jen, you probably have. You know, what do you think about the church really leading with and this is the reporter summarizing the Church, but it might be from talking points the Church gave her. I don't know. Jen, what do you think about the Church really leading with we disavow polygamy. Is that problematic to you in any way?

Guest 3 [00:14:01] Yeah, it's problematic because they don't.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] What do you mean?

Guest 3 [00:14:05] They don't disembowel it. It's still practiced in the eternities. It's still practice here on earth with men having wife that is passed away and then one that is here on earth, but they are both his eternal companions, which is polygamy still. So it's not disavowed. It's not something that we do not practice in some way still. So that's being, again, misleading.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:14:34] And dishonest.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:37] Yeah, I, I agree with that. I, I tend to think that she was not. And, and she didn't get a script from the Church. This was more like her own thing. But I mean that she's taking it from what the Church tries to always say, right, that, oh, we don't practice polygamy anymore. Like, they're like those shows and on TV have nothing to do with us when in reality, that's how the Church started. That's what the belief still is.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] And yeah, when we're talking about public relations, what, what for those who aren't in the know, what we're talking about here is that our, our current two highest ranking Mormon, Russell and Nelson, our prophet, and D H Oaks, the first counselor in the first Presidency, they're both polygamists. Literally, they are sealed to multiple women in the eternities. So they believe right now, if, if they were to be willing to answer the question, to appear in public and answer the question, they believe that when they die, they'll have multiple spouses in, in heaven. When you combine that with the fact, if you read Doctrine and covenants section 132, which we've covered on Mormon stories, we can include that in the show notes.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] Mormon scripture still is very polygamy affirming. It's still a core part of our doctrine. And so that's deceptive in many ways and really, really disingenuous to leave that out. Rfm, what would you add to that? Anything?

Radio Free Mormon [00:16:03] No, just that question that I had, which is they say that the Church disavowed polygamy in 1890 and again in 1904. And that is a classic example of talking about. It's not just one side of the issue. We're just talking about the tip of the iceberg of the issue. And there's this huge iceberg underneath the surface that they're not mentioning. And this is the positive little tip that they're going to talk about. And this is going to be what happens throughout that there's just this tip. And if you know enough about what's under the surface, which everybody here does and probably most of the listeners do, you can see exactly what I'm talking about as this goes on.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] Okay.

Guest 3 [00:16:42] And I think something that is disemboweled or whatever word they used.

John Dehlin [00:16:47] Disavowed.

Guest 3 [00:16:48] Yeah. Would not affect women anymore. And polygamy still affects women in the church, even if it's believed only. It happens in the eternities. That is a deep hurt and a deep. Just a deep gospel principle that that hurts and is hard for women to understand and to agree upon. And it's. It's still hurting women. So if it's disavowed, I don't believe that it is.

John Dehlin [00:17:20] And the best resource for that that will include in the show notes is Carolyn Pearson's book, the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy. And we did an episode with Carolyn Pearson about that. But that's a really good treatment of how polygamy still affects people today. So I. I wish the church would get rid of that talking point and just say, yeah, we believe in polygamy. It's complicated, but it's an eternal principle that we still espouse. Wouldn't that be perfectly honest, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:47] Is that unrealistic, Jen, to.

Guest 3 [00:17:49] Yeah, they should say it like that.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:51] Especially when you consider that Russell M. Nelson's first wife died and then only 14 months after that, he was marrying Wendy.

clip [00:17:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:00] Eternally ceiling.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:01] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] Getting sealed to Wendy for eternity.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:04] Right.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] Not just marrying.

clip [00:18:06] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:18:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] Yeah. All right. Anything else on that rfm?

Radio Free Mormon [00:18:10] No.

John Dehlin [00:18:11] Okay. All right, let's go ahead and go to the next clip.

clip [00:18:20] Here to enlighten and update us this afternoon on the future of the church is Elder David Bedner, a member of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the first church leader to speak before the club in 22 years.

Why the Church Avoided the Press for 22 Years

John Dehlin [00:18:36] Okay. So I thought it would be interesting to talk about why it's been 22 years since the church has appeared in front of the national press club. And generally speaking, with the Internet age, the church is really uncomfortable dealing with difficult questions. And even though, you know, 2000 was a long time ago, this really was accentuated in 2008 and later when Mitt Romney started running for president. And we just want to remind our listeners about kind of a really important event that happened, which was that the BBC, the British broadcasting, whatever C, whatever the C stands for, they did a, they did an episode on Mitt Romney called this World the Mormon Candidate with, with a man named John Sweeney.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] And in that episode they did a little feature on kind of the church and the temple and the temple rituals and the strength in the members committee and apostasy within the church. And I'm just going to play a little clip from that to remind everyone why church leaders don't want to meet with the press.

John Dehlin [00:19:47] So, you know, a lot of people feel like Elder Holland was caught in a lie there because he wanted to say that Mitt Romney. He literally said that Romney would not have done the blood oaths. But then Sweeney was prepared and called him on it. And then he tried to kind of pivot. But it just, it just goes to show you how problematic it is to be a church leader and have to speak for the church. And my understanding is the head of PR for the church was fired because of that BBC series that it caused that much problem and stress for the church.

John Dehlin [00:20:23] Did you guys have a reaction to that? Holland quote, RFM will let you go. Did anything you want to say RFM about that? That Holland. Do you think that was a pretty significant moment?

Radio Free Mormon [00:20:33] Oh, I do. Well, somebody's got a swing for that and I guess it was the head of pr.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Yeah, yeah, he did.

Radio Free Mormon [00:20:41] I really like where he goes though. I mean, he is caught so flat footed and he knows it. And he is so trying to put this in present tense and he's called on the past tense. He immediately caves, he cracks like a nut and he says yes, yes, okay, we used to. But it's so funny where he, he comes to this personal pledge to the Lord because of course nobody would ever want to publicly talk about a personal pledge they made to the Lord. That stuff's got to be kept secret with penalties and oaths.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it just. Did you want to say something, Jen?

Guest 3 [00:21:17] I was just saying it. It shouldn't be hard. Like it shouldn't be hard for them to do PR interviews and things like that.

clip [00:21:24] Why?

Guest 3 [00:21:25] Because they shouldn't be lying. Like if they're telling the truth, it's not hard to have PR interviews.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:30] Why would they be embarrassed by something they believe was.

clip [00:21:32] Is true.

Guest 3 [00:21:33] Exactly. So, you know, if you don't have to lie, if you don't have to cover up things, if you don't have to, you know, then you. You could talk all you want. You could have interviews all you want. You could answer questions without a pre paper that tells you what the questions are going to be.

clip [00:21:49] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:21:51] And I think that. I think Elder Bednar actually did a pretty good job overall, looking at it from his point of view. I think he did a good job with his address, eating up the time by lots of really kind of meaningless statistics about how wonderful the church is. And he did a pretty good job with the Q A. And I've got to think that he sat down after he was done and saying, thank God at least I didn't cock it up as bad as Elder Holland did.

John Dehlin [00:22:15] Well, one of the. One of the questions I had with Gerardo was, you know, did he get the questions from the Q and A in advance? But, but let's not. We don't. We don't know. We would have to speculate. But what we did want to do is just share a couple more clips about Bednar's history with the media. Only because we feel like people should know about these two instances because I think they're kind of really important. They show, they help illustrate again, even Bednar's history with kind of public faux pas. So let's go ahead and go to two of Elder Bednar's past media faux pas and these.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] I guess it's. These aren't media faux pas. Maybe I should have used different texts there, but they're social media faux pas. So let's go to the first one. This is a really famous one where Elder Holland, where Elder Bednar makes the famous claim that there are no homosexuals in the Mormon Church. Let's go to that one.

Bednar on Homosexuality and Church Membership

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:23:08] Next question. This is a question from Chile. Our translation has to be perfecto. Ready? Yes. How can homosexual members of the church live and remain steadfast in the gospel? First, I want to change the question. There are no homosexual members of the church.

Video Clip 2 [00:23:40] No hay miembros de la iglesia homosexuales.

Video Clip 2 [00:23:43] We are not defined by sexual attraction.

Video Clip 2 [00:23:46] No somos definidos por attraction.

Video Clip 2 [00:23:49] Sexual. We are not defined by sexual behavior. We are sons and daughters of God. And all of us have different challenges in the flesh.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] I think, Gerardo, you'd be best to kind of give a super quick response to that faux pas.

Gerardo Sumano [00:24:14] Yeah, that's really like something that made me laugh right now that I've never noticed is that his wife starts looking at him as he's asking the question and he's starting to response. And as soon as he starts saying there's no homosexual members of the church. She goes like this and stops looking at him, like, feeling really uncomfortable. And yeah, it's kind of interesting, right, because by that point, the church already had a website called More Mormon and Gay. They had a website with videos of Mormon identifying as lgbt, you know, Jessica Fulmer fully identifying as lesbian and saying that she was never going to marry a man. So, yeah, just this contradiction of what he was saying in Latin America. And interestingly, I was taking. I was talking to a friend of mine who.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] So you're saying that was kind of. Just even at the time, that was kind of deceitful.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:12] For him to claim that when the church had a Mormon and gays website back.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:15] Back at home, well, it really shows his real feelings, you know, I think not all. Like, although most members want to believe that all the apostles agree on everything or every doctrinal point like this shows that they may not be agreeing on a lot of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:25:32] And this is one of them, because we have Elder Oaks also saying similar stuff that people shouldn't identify as gay. And what I was just going to say is that in Latin America, unfortunately, this is the only thing that members know about LGBT people. So if you ask anyone what does the church think about LGBT people here in Mexico, anywhere in Latin America, they're going to bring up this quote. This is the only one they've ever heard and the most known. It was circulated widely in social media.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] Yeah, you bring up a good point, Gerardo. And I think this is an extension of the point you made, Jen. In addition to just being honest, perfectly honest, there's clearly double speak. There's clearly what the church teaches, what the church believes and what they discuss privately, which the Mormon leaks videos where the apostles are talking about the Gabe agenda. That's what they really think. Right. Then there's what they tell the members, which is that there's. There is no homosexuality, there are no homosexual members.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] That's what this video shows. Kind of like speak differently to the members than they speak behind closed doors. And then we contrast that with what Elder Bednar is going to say in this press junket, which is, we love all gay people. We want to work with them. There's this kind of three levels of honesty or three levels of dishonesty or three levels of communication that this bed in our clip kind of illustrates. Is that fair? Unfair.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:02] Fair.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] All right. Anything now, Jen?

Guest 3 [00:27:06] No.

John Dehlin [00:27:06] Gerardo, rfm, Anything you want to add?

Radio Free Mormon [00:27:09] Yeah, the only thing that struck me this time, which must be, I Don't know. We got to be at least in double digits of times I've watched this. Is that what he's saying is. Is that people are not defined by their sexual orientation. People are not defined by their sexual behavior. People are defined by their religious beliefs.

Gerardo Sumano [00:27:31] Yeah, that's a good point.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] Yeah. Interesting. Okay, well, we. There's one other clip we wanted to add which is also kind of disturbing, and we're just. We're. I think we're just sharing this because we want people to understand that. That the private Elder Bednar is very, very different from this polished PR Washington, D.C. elder Bednar. And I think this clip that we're about to show called the Lord's side of the Line illustrates it. And we. We cut it for. For brevity's sake. We took about three minutes out of this clip, but basically Elder Bednar brings this little kid on, starts illustrating how Satan manipulates Mormon or kids. The kid's crying almost the whole time. And this is the final part of the clip, which to me is one of the most disturbing things I've ever seen a Mormon apostle do. And that's saying something. But here's. Here's. Here's the end of this clip.

The Line Between Sin and Righteousness

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [00:28:28] They keep you way back over there. Do you like being this close to the line? Do you know what happens when you get this close to the line? A sin that's right here. Doesn't look that bad, does it? Right where my shoe is. That's not that big of a deal. Okay, take just a little step over here. One more step. Just a little more. Okay, now you try to get back over on the other side. Can you get over there?

Video Clip 3 [00:28:56] No.

Video Clip 3 [00:28:58] For an old man, I'm pretty strong, huh? You're not even trying very hard.

Video Clip 3 [00:29:03] Come on.

Video Clip 3 [00:29:05] All right, now remember what got you over here. You came all the way from back over there to right at the edge of the line by just not doing the things that you know you should do. And once you get over here, you're not in control anymore.

Video Clip 3 [00:29:24] Okay?

Video Clip 3 [00:29:25] All right, now step back over here. So your question was, if you're not praying or reading, what's the best way to get started again?

Video Clip 3 [00:29:35] Right?

Video Clip 3 [00:29:36] You just remember what it was like to be over there. Okay? Does that make sense? You don't want to be there and you're in charge. You're in control because of your agency of making sure that you don't get so close to the line that you'd make a mistake. Mistake and step over. So you stay turned this way by Choosing the right and you go deeper over here to where it's safe by continuing to choose the right. Does that answer your question?

Video Clip 3 [00:30:09] Yes.

Video Clip 3 [00:30:09] Tell me your name.

Video Clip 3 [00:30:11] Bryson.

Video Clip 3 [00:30:11] Bryson. Thank you. What a great question.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] So Jen, I think that that's the first time you've seen that clip. Did you have any quick initial reaction to it? I know it was just a partial clip.

Guest 3 [00:30:34] Sorry. That was disturbing to me a little bit.

Guest 2 [00:30:37] So

Guest 3 [00:30:40] yeah, that was super disturbing to see him. I don't know, I just. All I saw was him being restrained and him being taught about shame. Like being shamed. Just I don't. And that was just very disturbing to me.

John Dehlin [00:31:03] Yeah, there's the fear and the shame about Satan and the line and don't cross it.

Guest 3 [00:31:08] And at that age like, and at that age like sin to them is like, oh, I hit my brother while I was watching tv, you know. So this little kid is like running through things in his brain that are like not sin. Well actually he says a little, they're just like a little. Oh he does?

Guest [00:31:26] Yes.

Gerardo Sumano [00:31:29] Elder Bednar is taking him towards Satan's side and he says if you don't read your scriptures, you go towards Satan. If you, if you don't listen to your parents, you go to a Satan. And then it's just like this. He's giving. Elder Bedner is giving him examples of like little things like you didn't pray tonight. And then, and then he finally gets to Satan side and, and then Elder Bedner is saying he's Satan and trying to hold him. I don't.

Guest 3 [00:31:55] That makes it even more disturbing to me actually that he was saying those words to him because any little boy's heart, like they're gonna, he's gonna go home thinking he's already held by Satan in that. I don't know. That was very disturbing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:09] Especially when he's so mad about that. The question of the kid was what can I do when it's hard to not to remember to read my scriptures?

John Dehlin [00:32:17] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:32:18] Like really? And you just totally like trauma him. Like he. Yeah. Traumatized him.

John Dehlin [00:32:24] Yeah, we've traumatized Jed.

Guest 2 [00:32:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] And. And then there's a problem with just consent. Like he's holding this kid from behind in a very awkward and uncomfortable embrace. Did he ask the kid, can I touch you? Does he show any, any sensitivity towards the power imbalance and just violating the kids general space. Rfm. I know you have really fun and interesting comments that are probably dark. And also

Radio Free Mormon [00:32:54] it's like you can read my mind.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] You want to share about that clip?

Radio Free Mormon [00:32:57] RFM well, I've seen it a number of times, so I may be a little bit more inured to it than Jen is, because you've seen it for the first time. But every time they get to that point where he's grabbing him from behind, I'm not sure if I'm watching a church production or a NAMBLA promotional video.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] That's the national association of Man Boy Love. That's what. That's.

Radio Free Mormon [00:33:19] Thanks for putting a fine point on my joke.

John Dehlin [00:33:23] Yeah, it is disturbing. I mean, it's. It's. It's disturbing. And, you know, I guess, you know, I've done, what, 1600 hours of Mormon Stories episodes now you could find embarrassing things that I've said. So on the one hand, I'm like, oh, are we being unfair to Elder Bednar by pulling a couple of his worst moments? And there's this idea that no one should be defined by their worst moments, And I believe that. But I think. I think the reason why we're showing these clips is because I think this is who Bednar is.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] And. And we just want to contrast how he presents himself in the public image with kind of who he is behind the scenes. He would never do that boy exercise in the United States, let alone in front of the media. And if he did, they would be shocked and horrified, just like he would never make that comment about no homosexuals in the church in front of that audience.

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] Of. Of journalists. So it. It just illustrates who he really is so that we don't be too deceived by the PR spin. Is that. Is that fair? Have we fair? Have we made the point fair? All right, all right, all right. Well, let's go ahead and go on to the next point. Hopefully people don't feel like we're being too unfair to Elder Bednar. So now we get to the substance of Elder Bednar's main talk. And here we go.

Church Governance and Response to Gun Violence

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [00:34:49] The Quorum is the second highest presiding body in the governance of the church under the First Presidency, a governing unit of three men, the president and two counselors. Members come from a variety of fields, including law, business, medicine, academia, and the judiciary. When called to serve, they put aside their professions to assume their ecclesiastical administrative responsibilities, overseeing the progress and development of the global church.

Video Clip 4 [00:35:15] Before his calling, Elder Bednar had a distinguished career in academics. After serving as a missionary in Germany for two years, Elder Bedner attended Brigham Young University, where he received a bachelor's and master's degree, and then went on to earn his doctoral degree in organizational behavior from Purdue University.

Video Clip 4 [00:35:34] He began his career as a professor of business management, first at Texas Tech University and then at University of Arkansas. He then was appointed as president of Brigham Young University, Idaho, where He served from 1997 to 2004. Elder Bednar, welcome to the National Press Club. The floor is yours. The podium is yours.

John Dehlin [00:35:56] So one. One really quick thing that we just want to highlight people's attention to, that they'll want to kind of pay attention to later, is they just spent a significant amount of time reading his cv, his resume, his academic credentials, and it's as if they really want to play up the fact that he's a scholar, that he is a respected academic and scholar. And then what we'll find later is when they ask him questions about the church and its. And its growth and its statistics and its demographics, he's like, well, I'm not a scholar. I'm an apostle now. And so I throw all that stuff away.

John Dehlin [00:36:36] You won't get this point until you see him do that later. But we wanted to play that now so you'll remember it later, that they want to have their cake and eat it, too. They want to be respected as lawyers and doctors and academics, Critical thinkers. Critical thinkers. Right.

Guest 3 [00:36:53] Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] Yeah. So that. So that the public will. So the public will think they're smart and respectable people. But they. They literally shut that. I want to swear they shut that shit off when they actually govern the church. And he actually literally says that.

Guest 2 [00:37:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:09] A little bit later. All. Did you want to say something?

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:13] No.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] Okay, let's. Rfm. Any. Any. Any quick response to that?

Radio Free Mormon [00:37:17] Yeah. Nothing says academic excellence like Texas Tech and Rick's college.

John Dehlin [00:37:25] I think he was a professor in Arkansas. Is that any better?

Radio Free Mormon [00:37:29] I'm not going to say we don't

John Dehlin [00:37:31] want to offend our Arkansas.

Guest 3 [00:37:33] No, we don't.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] Yeah. Okay. All right, so let's go ahead. And now we're actually going to jump to his. His talk.

clip [00:37:47] Thank you. I am honored beyond description to be here with all of you today as representatives of the fourth estate. I appreciate your work in relaying the important stories of our day. Sadly, the news of our day is filled with heartache, including the tragic events and the loss of life. Most recently in Texas. We mourn with those who mourn, and we pray for all those impacted by this senseless act of violence. My prayer and my blessing is that we will be guided, comforted, and helped in our important work, and that victims, families, and nations might be granted the peace that surpasses all understanding, the peace that comes from Jesus Christ.

John Dehlin [00:38:41] I'm So I did any of you. So he's, he's clearly talking about there. For those who are watching this later with this week, there was a really awful, horrific mass shooting at a elementary school in Texas where what, a half a dozen 19 students and two 1910 year old students and a couple teachers were all killed in a mass shooting. There have been more mass shootings in 2022 than days. So more than one mass shooting a day has happened in the United States in 2022. He starts off by lamenting the violence. I have some, I had some strong reactions to that. Does anybody want to share theirs before I share mine?

Guest 3 [00:39:27] You go first.

John Dehlin [00:39:28] All right. Well, my. So I want to be clear because a lot of times Mormon stories listeners feel like we are Democrat or progressive and that we don't like Republicans or conservatives. I want to say again, that's not how I feel and that's not what we want to be conveyed. I'm a registered Republican in Utah mainly because I want my, my vote has the most influence in the primaries as a Republican. But I believe there's good and bad to both parties. I'm not partisan. Now with that disclaimer, I want to say I understand the Constitution, the right to bear arms. This comment I'm about to make is not about that.

John Dehlin [00:40:08] And so I don't want this to be taken as an anti Republican, anti guns sort of statement. But if we just talk about mass shootings, I just want to say that that's one of, of some really significant social problems in the United States.

John Dehlin [00:40:25] And for me, when you think about the role of a prophet Syrian revelator, the fact that they have a global responsibility to really help the world, that's the type of leadership I would want to see from a prophet Syrian revelator is some sort of solution or efforts or rhetoric or statements or even lobbying.

Gerardo Sumano [00:40:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:49] That would lead to a reduction in things like mass shootings. Right, right. Because. Because that, you know, that's a major issue. Little children being killed. Jesus was pretty clear about, you know, harming children. Right. And my biggest problem is where does the church spend its money? Where does it spend its lobbying efforts? It spends it to defeat same sex marriage and to lobby to minimize the rights of LGBT people. That's where they spend their money in their lobbying efforts. And so instead of showing leadership in a very important issue, they've been silent on that. They've never have they ever made a public statement about guns or mass shootings or if they ever.

John Dehlin [00:41:32] Is there any evidence that they've ever Lobbied to reduce mass shootings? I don't think so. And instead they're just saying, Jesus is the answer and we pray for them. And so this is an area of. I don't know if I'm being fair, but that was my reaction. It's like, where's the leadership? Where's the prophetic leadership on an issue of real importance? They're to me, they're missing it. Missing in action.

Gerardo Sumano [00:41:57] Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:42:00] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:42:01] I think people. I think people are. Are done with the phrase, I'll pray for you.

John Dehlin [00:42:07] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Guest 3 [00:42:08] Like, I think. I think we're done. I think. I think we're done with that. I think we need you not to pray if. If you're not getting any guidance and just listen and do something about it.

Radio Free Mormon [00:42:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] Rfm, I want to get you in because I know this is a complicated issue, but I do want to know if you have any reactions about that or not, and it's fine if you don't.

Radio Free Mormon [00:42:32] Well, I do, briefly. Obviously, it's a very complex issue. I don't claim to have all the answers. It is my sense, however, that as horrible, as absolutely horrible as these mass shootings are, I think these are actually a symptom rather than the underlying problem beyond that, that doesn't detract from how horrible they are and that we should try and do what we can do, everything we can do to keep them from happening. But I do think those are the leaves of the tree and not the roots.

Radio Free Mormon [00:43:04] I do want to give credit to Elder Bednar for mentioning it because this is different. This is different than what I have seen in General Conference for decades, which is where General Conference appears to occur in a vacuum and there is no reference to anything going on outside in the world. There are some exceptions to that, but as a general rule, there's nothing happening outside of the conference center. They're just talking and giving the same old talk. So I want to give him credit for mentioning it. I want to give him credit for talking about Jesus in association with it. I want to give him credit for taking the opportunity, because I think this was a good move on his part to be able to appear apostolic and like the leader of a church in the things he said about it.

Radio Free Mormon [00:43:54] But of course, what he says about it doesn't change anything, but it gives him a chance to look good. By the way, I want to say another good thing about him, that I think the person who was doing his makeup for this did a really good job. Elder Bednar looks almost lifelike in this appearance.

John Dehlin [00:44:09] Thanks, RFM. And we really want @Mormon Stories to be fair and balanced. So I love that you're highlighting positive. We wanted to do that, too. And I think that's a fair point. I just would love to see money spent in lobbying efforts more on important social issues that really matter and less on taking rights away from LGBT people.

Radio Free Mormon [00:44:30] Yeah. On the other side of that, look what happened when they actually said something about needles.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:44:36] I mean, how are they going to say anything about guns? Because now the church is in a position where it has so many disparate elements that are part of its membership that it feels that it can't say anything one way or another without stepping on toes and creating schisms. I was shocked. I don't know. I think you might have been, too. I'm imagining that the leaders of the church were shocked that when President Nelson quite belatedly recommends that members of the church get vaccinated, that all of a sudden they've got a protest on their hands of sizable proportions.

John Dehlin [00:45:09] Yeah. And that's addressed later in this. In this talk. Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:45:13] He downplays it, but yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] Okay. Well, let's go ahead and move on to the next part of his talk.

Comparing Bednar's Talk to President Hinckley's

▶ Video Clip 5

Video Clip 5 [00:45:25] I'm humbled that you would take time out of your schedules to be here this afternoon. The last time a senior leader of our church spoke at the Press club was in 2000. President Gordon B. Hinckley. It's good to be back.

Video Clip 5 [00:45:40] I was here in Washington just last month as we opened to the public our temple on the north side of the Capitol Beltway. You likely are familiar with this beautiful building. It has been an iconic landmark in this community for five decades.

Video Clip 5 [00:45:57] Some of you attended the media briefings and tours on April 18. Approximately 150 journalists attended and have provided extensive global coverage. In addition, the package put together by Ed o', Keefe, Ed Forgotson, and their colleagues at CBS Sunday Morning was broadcast on Easter, a most significant day for all Christians.

Video Clip 5 [00:46:22] We were pleased to explain that the temple is not a large cathedral, but a series of floors and rooms that symbolically represent a spiritual journey back to the presence of God. As our members move from the ground level to the elevated areas of the structure and receive instruction about God's plan for his children.

Video Clip 5 [00:46:44] The ultimate destination of that symbolic journey is the Celestial Room, a representation of our heavenly home. So far, hundreds of thousands of people have toured the temple. If you have not yet had the opportunity to visit the temple, please see me or members of our team after this meeting. And we

John Dehlin [00:47:07] so any. Any re. Rfm. Let's have you go first. Any reactions to kind of how he described the temple and what it means to Mormon?

Radio Free Mormon [00:47:16] I think he does a really good job here. I think that's exactly how I would have done it if I were in his shoes as an apostle, is how I would have recommended that he do it. Because that is the overall generalization of what happens in the temple. That's the whole point of the temple is taking view from that journey from the lower levels up to the celestial room. So up to there I think he's doing a great job.

Guest [00:47:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] Any reactions, Gerardo and Jen, from that description?

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:44] I think my reaction is that

Guest 2 [00:47:49] most

Gerardo Sumano [00:47:49] members that I know of struggle to go to the temple or to want to go to the temple. Very close family members I know who

John Dehlin [00:48:00] are active and faithful.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:02] Yeah. Who are active and faithful and really believe in the church. Have real issues with the temple ceremony. I mean they might not say like that, but they just try to avoid going as much as possible.

John Dehlin [00:48:16] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:48:18] And a lot of them happen to be women and so. And I know that at least in my state growing up after the temple was dedicated, there are constant talks in sacrament meeting about members. You should go to the temple. The temple is empty. People are not going to the temple. The temple is going to be closed a lot of days of the week, more days of the week if we, we don't have enough people to fill in the ceremonies. So. And I know it happens all around Mexico too. So it's just interesting how Elder Bedner wants to portray the temple as something so sacred and so important for Mormon when in reality does not how it really plays out.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] Yeah, I. I think the church has always wanted it to be a spiritual place, but from a very young age, my dad would always say to me, I don't feel the spirit in the temple. I wish, I wish you could go there to meditate. And later they talk about that as a place to meditate. But literally if you stay in this. When I was growing up, if you stay in the celestial room too long, they ask you to leave.

Gerardo Sumano [00:49:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:30] You don't go to meditate. You go to watch a film, to do the handshakes, to do the arm waving thing, you know, baptisms for the dead, marriage. Marriage for the dead. It's not. Spirituality is. Is. I think, I think you make a great point, Gerardo. It's not core to people's experience, although I think the church sincerely wants it to be. And I think all of us were on the Hamster wheel of each time we went to the temple. Like, man, maybe this time I'll feel good. Maybe this time I won't fall asleep. Right. Like, that's how it's for me. It's like, can I not fall asleep? Yeah, this time.

Guest 3 [00:50:01] Yeah. I think it was just disturbing for me.

John Dehlin [00:50:05] The temple.

Guest 3 [00:50:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:06] Did you not love it?

Guest 3 [00:50:08] I know it was kind of traumatizing, actually. I had a really bad first experience, so.

John Dehlin [00:50:14] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:15] But it is important to say that while we were members of the church, believing members, we probably wouldn't talk about it. That's how we would feel.

Guest 3 [00:50:23] No, no.

Gerardo Sumano [00:50:23] But to member, to other members, we would say, oh, it's amazing. It's the greatest thing. We were really excited when other family members were gonna enter for the first time. It's not until after when you start thinking about it, you know, and really think about what your feelings were.

John Dehlin [00:50:38] Yeah. Like, Margi never went back. We got married in the temple and then literally, we were still active. You know, we were active from 93 to 2014. So that's 11 years. No, that's 21 years. 21 years. And she never went back unless, like, someone was getting married because it wasn't spiritual for her. Again, it wasn't spiritual for me. The thing that I noticed is they're leaving out something really important. What? I don't think the member. I don't think the temple is really about spiritual growth for the members. It's a way to force members to pay tithing.

Gerardo Sumano [00:51:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] And to obey. It's a way of boundary maintenance and of identity maintenance and of obedience maintenance. Of course, they don't think of it that way, so they're not going to say it, but I think we all agree that's what the temple is. You can't go to your own wedding, you can't go on a mission. You can't see your kids get married in the temple unless you obey the rules and pay the tithing. And so it's what it. I think the main purpose of the temple is to force obedience and to give the force members to give the church money. And of course, they're not. I don't expect them in control.

John Dehlin [00:51:47] I would say it is. I think that's a major thing of it. The other major thing they don't mention is it's. It's the only way people get to heaven. And he's going to talk later. Herod, you highlight this. He's going to talk later about how we're not a church of works. But what the Temple literally represents is you don't go to heaven unless you get a Mormon baptism. And so Mormon have to spend a big chunk of their lives getting baptized for dead people because all those Christian baptisms don't count.

John Dehlin [00:52:16] Right. And all those marriages, all those marriages performed billions of marriages every year. Right. They don't count. You have to have a Mormon marriage in a Mormon temple to be sealed to your spouse in the afterlife. So there's this ordinances for the living and the dead part of it that is a core reason those temples exist. And he's not going to bring that up to the press because he's basically saying you're, all your ordinances are worthless. All your baptisms and marriages are literally worthless in the eyes of God. So we've gotta, we, the Mormon, have to go do all your work for you by proxy. Work for the dead. And so I think that's why they don't mention that. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:52:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:59] Is that fair? Am I being unfair?

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:03] I mean, it's, that's how it is.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] It is true. But they'll never like actually tell people that all your baptisms and marriages are worthless.

clip [00:53:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] In the sight of God.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:13] Rfm, you're probably going to say I'm being unfair.

Radio Free Mormon [00:53:15] No, I was just going to reiterate. That's why I think he did such a good job with that statement.

John Dehlin [00:53:21] Because he avoided. Because he avoided those issues. Rfm, we love having you on. This is so great. Okay. All right, let's go to the next next clip.

The Restoration and Core Church Beliefs

clip [00:53:34] For those of you who may not be familiar with our church, we believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is Christ's New Testament Church restored. The organization of the church is the same today as existed in the primitive church with a foundation of apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. In the early 1800s, Joseph Smith was a prophet of God through whom the authority and doctrine of the ancient church were re established by the gift and power of God. He translated an ancient text known as the Book of Mormon which recounts the visit of Jesus Christ to the Americas and stands with the Bible as a second scriptural witness of the Savior's reality and divinity. We believe that a succession of prophets has continued since Joseph Smith. And today our prophet is Russell M. Nelson.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] All right, so that was kind of like main beliefs of the Mormon Church. So I'll ask each of you. Jen will have you go first. Anything. Catch your, Catch your ear. Catch your eye.

Guest 3 [00:54:51] It caught my ear that you said that the book was translated.

John Dehlin [00:54:54] What book?

Guest 3 [00:54:55] The Book of Mormon, the. Joseph Smith translated. He used that word.

John Dehlin [00:54:59] What's wrong with that?

Guest 3 [00:55:00] Because they're trying to now say that it wasn't. He didn't translate it. It was revealed to him or.

John Dehlin [00:55:07] Revelation.

Guest 3 [00:55:08] Yeah. Through the stone in the hat, you know, because people are starting to know that he didn't translate it, you know, and so now they have to come up with a different narrative. But he still said translate.

John Dehlin [00:55:20] Yeah. Okay. So for your mind, that's maybe not fully honest.

Guest 3 [00:55:24] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:55:25] Okay. That caught your eye.

Guest 3 [00:55:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:26] Right. What caught your eye or ear?

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:28] That's a really good first, you know, restoration lesson.

John Dehlin [00:55:33] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:33] Pretty good summer. Well, summary.

John Dehlin [00:55:35] Yeah. I was wondering if he was going to mention Joseph Smith's name at all. Oh right. That maybe that he would just conveniently. But he did. He mentioned Joseph Smith, he mentioned the Book of Mormon, he mentioned Jesus visiting America and he mentioned modern day prophets. I, I do have a question about is the Mormon Church the same organization that Jesus organized? Like is this the Primitive Church?

Gerardo Sumano [00:55:59] That's what Mormon believe, really believe. I think I believe that.

Guest 3 [00:56:03] I did too. I did. I don't now, but I did.

John Dehlin [00:56:08] Like we're a freaking corporation.

Guest 3 [00:56:09] Just like I believe the temple was a spiritual place. I did. But I don't now. Now that I take time to think about it and really step back from all of it.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] Yeah, like just, just this. Did Jesus build temples and do proxy work for the dead in his temples? Was that part of the original church?

Radio Free Mormon [00:56:32] First Corinthians 15:29, baby.

Guest 3 [00:56:34] I don't think Jesus was a polygamist

Radio Free Mormon [00:56:36] either that I remember Mary and Martha. Why did he hang out with them all the time? Read the Gospel of Luke.

John Dehlin [00:56:44] Is the modern corporate church the same as the Primitive church? What's your answer to that rfm?

Radio Free Mormon [00:56:51] Well, no, of course it's not. Because no church is going to be like the church Jesus organized. Because Jesus never organized a church.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] That's a problem.

Radio Free Mormon [00:57:01] That's the first problem.

Guest 3 [00:57:04] I like that.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] Yeah, I think our friend Randy would agree with you.

Radio Free Mormon [00:57:09] But I did want to say I thought this was where Elder Bednar shown the best. Yeah, because like you said, is he even going to mention Joseph Smith or is he going to go right into this long monotonous list of all the wonderful things that the church is doing in the world today. This is what I expect an apostle to do is to go in front of a crowd of non members, publicly teach what Mormonism is about. And he did that. And he didn't shy away from any of the More controversial aspects, whether it's Jesus in America or Joseph Smith translating the Book of Mormon or that he was a prophet.

Radio Free Mormon [00:57:45] We got a prophet today. He said all the main points, and he said it without being ashamed or trying to dodge an issue. And I think this was a really good thing for him to do. I do think that if I had been advising him, I would have told him, elder Bednar, this is so important, and it's not that long. You need to commit this to memory so you can speak it with your eyes up. And I should bring my eyes up as I'm doing this with. With your eyes up and toward the audience and not off of your note cards. Because what he ends up doing is at the end of every sentence where he's making a statement of religious conviction.

Radio Free Mormon [00:58:24] He doesn't finish here, which would be stronger. He finishes with his eyes down because he's got to pick up the next line, and that ends up signaling weakness and lack of conviction. I'm not saying that's what he really has in his heart. That's why I would have told him, just memorize it. Say it all straight out. And if you can't memorize it all, make sure that the final line of every sentence is said to the audience and not said down here on the paper.

John Dehlin [00:58:51] Man, it almost sounds like you're a trial attorney or something, or a director

Radio Free Mormon [00:58:56] or stage manager or. Oh, general pain in the ass.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] Yeah, I love it. All right, thanks, rfm. Okay, let's go ahead and go to the next clip.

Inside-Out Change and Personal Transformation

▶ Video Clip 6

Video Clip 6 [00:59:11] Often, the world works from the outside in. Changing a person's circumstances and environment may be considered the best method of changing that person. This approach certainly is important, as I will illustrate in just a few minutes. But God typically works from the inside out through a spiritual rebirth.

Video Clip 6 [00:59:37] If a person allows God to change his or her heart, then that person is empowered in remarkable ways to change his or her circumstances and environment. Now, both temporal change from the outside in, spiritual change from the inside out, are needed and useful in different situations.

Video Clip 6 [01:00:02] But we have learned that a person with a new heart, a person changed from the inside out, serves and blesses family, friends, neighbors, congregations, and communities in powerful ways. They learn to see each other for who they are and therefore treat each other accordingly.

Video Clip 6 [01:00:24] This is how our faith community has expanded to all parts of the world, including the Middle East, Eastern Asia, Eastern Europe. For members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, drawing closer to God through our temple worship, is life changing?

John Dehlin [01:00:45] All right, I just. I just had some pretty strong reactions Myself. Any of you have any strong reactions you want to share? Gerardo? No. Jen, anything struck out to you?

Guest 3 [01:00:57] Yeah. Why don't you go first?

John Dehlin [01:00:58] Okay.

Guest 3 [01:00:58] I'm still thinking.

John Dehlin [01:00:59] Okay. So recently Brad Wilcox, they found a clip of him doing kind of that inside speak with some of his audience where he basically said if you don't have the church and if you're a secular person and there's like a airplane crash, you're going to like trample over the sick people to get out and save yourself. It was basically this idea that only Mormon or religious people have charity and are kind. And if you don't have a religion or if you're secular, you just are going to stab and shank your neighbor for self gain. You know what I mean? And I don't think he's necessarily saying that, but I thought a lot about this.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] This theme that he shares of outside in change versus inside out change. He returns to it many times during this talk and he ends with this theme. And the problem I have with it is that number one, it reinforces this idea that only religious people, religious people are the best. Religious people are the most spiritual. Religious people are the most charitable and the most altruistic. And if you're secular or non Mormon, because I think he thinks Mormon do inside out change the best, if you're not Mormon, you're not going to be really spiritual and really charitable. And my. One of my problems with that, other than the bigotry that I think the anti non Mormon bigotry or the anti secular bigotry that this supports, I also question the idea whether the Mormon Church really nurtures inside out change.

Gerardo Sumano [01:02:30] You're.

John Dehlin [01:02:30] You're already nodding your head, Jen. Why is that?

Guest 3 [01:02:32] Yeah, well, that's the same thing. I thought, I thought it was beautiful because I kind of believe this, that you know, finding God, whatever you want to call your God to any individual, finding God within yourself and then finding that love for yourself and you know, that love from whatever source is yours and then go about your life with empathy and love of that same kind for everyone else is beautiful. And I love that. And I think that that was beautiful how he said that. But then there was the. But then there. He also said there. Then there's this outside source that you got to take into consideration, which I'm guess is like the prophets and the church and the outline and all the.

Guest 3 [01:03:21] And then that brings all of that. That's so wrong into question two, like into a person. And I don't. It doesn't. Need that. Like if you just went with the first part of what you said. Totally love that. I think that was great what he said. But bringing it. But then he has to ruin it. Well, with adding the extra.

John Dehlin [01:03:45] Yeah. And I just, I just, you know, I'm going to use you as an example, Gerardo, if you don't mind. Like, okay, what does inside out change mean? I would think that what it means is you. You go within. Like Jesus said, the kingdom of God was within.

Guest 2 [01:03:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:58] You listen to your heart, you listen to your soul. You listen, you look within, you figure out what's good and righteous and true for you is. And then you transform.

Radio Free Mormon [01:04:09] Right.

John Dehlin [01:04:10] But like Gerardo, in your case, if as you're being raised in the Mormon Church, do you feel like you were encouraged to look within to figure out what felt right and true to you is and what love is for you and that then you became externally what your inner voice told you to be? Was that your experience inside out change?

clip [01:04:33] No.

Gerardo Sumano [01:04:34] Well, he was always looking at. Whenever you have a question about what you should do in any situation is always asking yourself, what would Jesus do? What would the prophet do? What would a person that fits the ideal would Mormon would do? And then, you know, that's how you answer your question. You know, so. Or looking at an outside source always like asking God or asking your bishop, your stake president, whatever.

John Dehlin [01:05:09] And for those who don't know your story, what did your inside tell you was was love and was good. As you were growing up, what did your inside tell you?

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:19] Well, that I was gay.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] Right. And then what was love?

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:22] Yeah, that I was attracted to people of my same sex.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] Who did you love eventually?

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:28] Yeah, my husband.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] Yeah, that's what inside out told you.

Guest [01:05:31] Right?

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:31] Right.

John Dehlin [01:05:32] But then the church. And it's ironic that this is in the context of a discussion about the temple because how would the church have punished you if you followed your inside out inklings? Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:05:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:45] They would excommunicate me and kick you out of the temple and remove your membership and you couldn't go on a mission and you'd be embarrassed by your family and you couldn't attend your own sister's wedding if she got married. So like, is that inside out change or is that outside in coercion? And I don't mean to like be mean spirited here.

Gerardo Sumano [01:06:03] No, but, but it's a good point. I think it's a fair point for sure.

John Dehlin [01:06:09] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:06:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:10] Like the temple is a symbol of coercion, of outside in coercion. Not even. Not of inside out Authentic transformation.

Guest 3 [01:06:22] But they t. They tell it to us like it's going to be an experience where you're going to, from the inside out, learn something new and you'll find all these new truths and everything. We all go there trying to get that. But it's not, it's not, it's not any of those things. It's just a place for them to control and, and get what they need.

John Dehlin [01:06:44] And I don't want to belabor this point, but as I've interacted with tens of thousands of people who have left the Mormon Church, what I'm told repeatedly is that the church took them away from themselves. The church taught them to quiet themselves, the church. Them leaving the church was the first time they were ever actually able to look inside, figure out what they love, who they are, what they value, what they, what they care about, and to follow it. Rfm, we haven't brought you in yet. Do you have anything to add to this sort of, this sort of branch of the conversation?

Radio Free Mormon [01:07:18] I do get concerned when language like this is used by church leaders and I think you've hit on most of the reasons why. And that's because it has nothing to do with how the church actually functions. The church is a very legalistic religion and by that I mean the LDS Church. And you've done a great job of talking about how we are never encouraged to go from the inside out. We are told to look to the general authorities and the leaders of the church to dictate to us how it is that we are to live our lives. We are allowed personal revelation only to the extent that it agrees with what the leaders are telling us.

Radio Free Mormon [01:08:00] And in summary, I would say that what I see when I hear Elder Bednar saying this is, I see a legalistic religion masquerading as a charismatic faith, and the church is anything but a charismatic faith. He's actually sort of pretending to be a born again Christian.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:19] Right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:08:19] For purposes of, I don't know, scoring points because that is not what this church is and never has been, regardless of the fact that, that a lot of that theology is in the Book of Mormon that was left behind many, many years ago.

John Dehlin [01:08:34] Yeah, a lot of heads nodding here in the studio.

Gerardo Sumano [01:08:37] Rfm, that was awesome.

John Dehlin [01:08:39] Thank you. Thanks. Thanks. RFM. Okay, well, Jen, we're going to ask you to pay particular attention to this next part because now he's going to address women in the church. Are you ready, Jen?

Women's Roles in the Church

Guest 3 [01:08:49] Oh, great. Yep, I'm ready.

John Dehlin [01:08:51] Excited?

Guest 3 [01:08:52] I am. I hope it's good.

John Dehlin [01:08:53] Here's the Church's statement on women in the church. We want people to not only pay attention to what was mentioned, but maybe what wasn't mentioned. Okay, here we go

clip [01:09:06] on the issue of women in the church. Our church membership, like many other organizations, is comprised of a female majority. We have one of the oldest women's organizations in the world, known as the relief society. Organized 180 years ago. Today, the Relief Society has approximately seven point.

John Dehlin [01:09:29] Oh, I don't know why it stopped there. I don't think it was supposed to stop there. But Jen, let's just have you react to that. You're in the majority. Like, that's pretty good, right?

Guest 3 [01:09:42] Yeah. So it's interesting if I'm in the majority, how there are no women leaders. Just wondering why that is.

John Dehlin [01:09:53] Yeah, yeah. I feel bad that, that this clip cuts short and I'm sure it's my.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:01] Should we just mention the stats that he gives?

John Dehlin [01:10:03] Yeah, yeah. So do you want to read them or.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:06] Yeah, I can. I can read them. Okay, so the stats that he brings up, can you put them on the screen? Just. I think you have them there, right?

John Dehlin [01:10:15] Yeah. I feel bad we didn't get this clip. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:18] Okay. 7.1 million members of the Relief Society. And then he says there's 31,000 congregation. And this theme of 31,000 congregations he's going to keep repeating, but then he says for every congregation, there's one Relief Society president. So that's 31,000 Relief Society presidents. And then he says, and they have two counselors. So when you multiply it, you know, you're gonna get 93, 000. Really? Like women leaders in the church.

John Dehlin [01:10:55] Yeah. And then he goes on to say that everyone is supposed to teach, minister and serve men and women. And so. Yeah, so church loves women. Women are good. I don't know what else to say about that, Jen. Women. Look at. There are 93, 000 of you leading throughout the church worldwide. 7.1 million women. That's not true.

Guest 3 [01:11:24] That's leading. Leading worldwide. In a class. In a class. They're leading a class. That's what young. Like the release Society is leading.

John Dehlin [01:11:32] Casserole delivery.

Guest 3 [01:11:34] It's a class within the church. It's a class. No, it doesn't lead the ward. It doesn't lead.

John Dehlin [01:11:41] There's service projects, there's casserole delivery. I don't know what goes on in Relief Society. Is it just a class? I think that's what I'm not.

Guest 3 [01:11:49] Not leadership of the church. That's what goes on.

John Dehlin [01:11:51] Don't you organize like board activities or things like that. What do you do at Relief Society?

Guest 3 [01:11:56] We make it all happen. Like we do all the work. We're the whole reason this whole church is running. But no, there's no leadership. There's no leadership, there's no leaders, there's no authority. There's, there's just not. I know, I know that they like to swing it different ways and they like try to make us feel like there is, but there's not.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:21] I think you're saying like important decision making always comes back to whoever is

Guest 3 [01:12:26] above the priesthood leader.

Guest [01:12:28] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:12:28] Like there's never going to be a woman that is, that has the final say.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] No, when a, when a relief sighted president wants to call two counselors, what has to happen first?

Guest 3 [01:12:41] Oh, the bishop has to approve them.

John Dehlin [01:12:43] So they can't even call their own counselors without.

Guest 3 [01:12:46] No, they can pray about it. They can pray about it.

Guest 2 [01:12:49] Right.

Guest 3 [01:12:49] And come up with some names. Yeah, but, but the decision decisions are male. They're priesthood holder people are decisions. And if we're bringing up the Release Society, I just want to also say, historically the Release Society was a woman run society. It was, it had its own budget, it didn't have priesthood authority over. Was its own society separate from the church. And then the priesthood and the leaders as it grew decided that they were going to then take over it. And so I have a lot of, I have a lot of feelings there, A lot of stuff that I never knew about, a lot of historical stuff that it's wrong. And definitely I don't think he should be bragging about anything with women in the church.

John Dehlin [01:13:55] And, and, and you've already made the point, Jen. But what's he not, what's he not admitting if we talk about being completely honest? What should he have acknowledged if he's being fully honest?

Guest 3 [01:14:05] There's no women leadership at any, at any level of the church. There, there's none.

John Dehlin [01:14:13] What about the auxiliary? I can see a Mormon apologist saying, well, there's the, there's the General Relief Society board, there's a General Young Women's Board.

Guest 3 [01:14:21] But who do they answer to? Are they the final say in anything? No, never. Anywhere, Nowhere.

John Dehlin [01:14:28] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:14:30] Not even in eternity.

John Dehlin [01:14:32] Yeah. So, and this is mind boggling to me that in 2022, in a Western civil, in any civilized country, that a religion is allowed to discriminate so blatantly against such over half of its own members and that like everybody's just like, oh yeah, that's what churches do. They just exclude women. Sorry. Women, you know, even gay. Even gay Mormon men who are, like, denounced as evil are allowed to serve in the priesthood, but not women.

Guest 3 [01:15:04] Yeah. And then they say that this priesthood. Why they. I don't know. One of the reasons they have to, you know, make the decisions is like this discernment that they get with this priesthood. And I haven't seen much of that. I haven't seen much of that discernment. As, you know, we look at what happens to people and within wards and. And things like that. I just. There's not a discernment.

Radio Free Mormon [01:15:31] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:15:32] So it's just making women feel like they can't make a decision without an approval of a male is ludicrous.

John Dehlin [01:15:43] Yeah. But also the church is real. If you think about just sexual abuse, child abuse in the church, sexual abuse in the church, rape in the church, all the major social problems, LGBT stuff, financial transparency. I just have to think that if women were co leaders with men in this church, it would be a very different church. Oh, for sure. And a more Christlike church. More Christ. Like.

Guest 3 [01:16:16] I believe we would have given more than $9.6 million if we're worth 150 billion if it was round by women. I kind of feel that. So the church, because we're more. I don't know. Yeah, it's. I feel it.

John Dehlin [01:16:29] Humanitarian aid.

Guest 3 [01:16:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] There'd be more humanitarian aid. There'd be more financial transparency.

Guest 3 [01:16:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:34] Less child abuse.

Guest 3 [01:16:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:36] Right.

Guest 3 [01:16:36] If the Release Society was in charge of the release Society money.

John Dehlin [01:16:40] Of the budget.

Guest 3 [01:16:41] Of the budget.

John Dehlin [01:16:41] Of the tithing budget.

Guest 3 [01:16:42] Yeah. Of the tithing budget. Exactly. Like there would be a difference. I believe there would be a difference.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:49] Do you remember delaying that? Dalton.

John Dehlin [01:16:51] Yeah. Elaine Dalton.

Gerardo Sumano [01:16:53] Yeah. I recently heard from someone who's friends with her that she supports gay marriage and she wishes the church would do gay ceilings in the temple. So. So imagine someone like. She was in a high position in the church, is highly regarded by a lot of members because, I mean, she was very well known for being in the. The. The first. Sorry, the president of Young Women's. And imagine. Imagine some. Someone like that that could make decisions.

John Dehlin [01:17:27] Yeah. I just can't believe they're.

Guest 3 [01:17:30] Yeah, that's true.

John Dehlin [01:17:31] The LGBT bigotry.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:34] If.

John Dehlin [01:17:34] Or even just this gun control thing, like if. I don't know. So, rfm, we want to get you in on. On the women's issue. I know that you're not officially a woman, but we still want to give you a chance to jump in if you want to say anything about his comments on women.

Radio Free Mormon [01:17:49] Well, this is where it gets into the theme of only talking about positive things, and it really doesn't even follow. So he talks about the role of women in the church. So we're going to talk about the fact that the Relief Society exists, that it's old as an organization, that there's a lot of women in it, that we've got women in the local wards and we've got lots of Relief Society presidents. And then he's going to stop.

Radio Free Mormon [01:18:16] What he's not going to say is what everybody who's a member of the church knows, which is that, yes, women can have and do have leadership positions in the church, but there's two things that go along with that. First off, they never have a leadership position over a man.

Radio Free Mormon [01:18:34] Not once. Unless I'm mistaken, maybe somebody knows of one and they could correct me. But a woman never has a leadership position over a man. She can have leadership positions over other women, young women, little women. And no, that's not a literary reference. The only time that women get to have any leadership over a person with a PP is if they're under 12 years old.

Radio Free Mormon [01:19:02] And I'm talking about primary. Right, yeah. So that's the first thing, is that no woman in the church has any leadership position over any man, no matter how high up they might be in the church. The woman. And the other part of that goes the other way, which is, yes, every woman who's in a leadership position in the church has a man above her that she has to go to to get authority to do basically whatever it is she wants to do, including, like you mentioned, calling counselors.

John Dehlin [01:19:34] Yeah. Yeah. Well said, rfm. Yeah. Thank you for sharing and I think we covered it. All right, well, let's now go on to race. He's going to tackle race, so isn't this great? He's got an opportunity to tackle race and racism and. And Mormonism and its racist past. Let's see what he has to say about race.

Race, the NAACP Partnership, and Unaddressed History

▶ Video Clip 7

Video Clip 7 [01:19:57] On the issue of race, we know and teach that each of us is a beloved son or daughter of God who loves all of his children equally. Last month, Reverend Dr. Amos Brown spoke at our media events for the Washington D.C. temple open house.

Video Clip 7 [01:20:14] As you may know, excuse me. Dr. Brown is a prominent civil rights leader and holds a leadership role in the naacp. He also leads the Third Baptist Church in San Francisco. Though not a member of our faith, he is a tremendous friend of the church.

Video Clip 7 [01:20:36] In 2019, Derek Johnson, president and CEO of the NAACP, met with President Nelson and took significant steps to bring our organizations Together to model for the world. How two unexpected organizations can collaborate to foster greater mutual responsibility in unity.

Video Clip 7 [01:20:59] We are working together to support community projects in major US Cities, provide academic scholarships for underserved populations, and initiate this summer the first ever Amos C. Brown Fellowship.

John Dehlin [01:21:15] Okay, so again, I. I didn't get the codes quite right on that, but he goes on to say that they're offering some scholarships to people of color and travel fellowships to go to Ghana. Yeah, so somebody joked in the comments that. That the church has a few black friends. I think they were trying to joke about that.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:37] Brad Wilcox.

John Dehlin [01:21:38] I'm gonna start. I'm gonna start this time with rfm. Rfm. So, yeah, we've got a relationship with the NAACP now. All. All people are children of God. We want to be mutual, respectful for all. The church is doing service projects in communities and, and they're offering scholarships and fellowships. That's it. What do, what do you have to say?

Radio Free Mormon [01:21:58] How do you say anything bad about that? That's a good thing, right? I think it's a very positive thing. And I do note that Elder Bednar can't drop enough names of black leaders in the NAACP. He only has time, apparently, for two of them. But I remember back in 2017, that first press conference that the President Nelson, I'm pretty sure, did with the naacp, and Elder Rasband was up there too, and they're having a big press event, and then they were done making their announcements and holding hands, and then they went back behind the two doors.

Radio Free Mormon [01:22:31] And at that point I thought, wow, this is really remarkable. You got the NAACP and you got the LDS Church, and they're having a press event of unity for the public. And when they went back behind those doors, I thought, well, how much is this going to cost the church?

Radio Free Mormon [01:22:50] So within a few weeks after that, I was not surprised to hear that the church was announcing a rather sizable donation to. I think it was some black history museum and the creation of it. And I thought, well, there's the first drop in the bucket, because I don't think they're getting the NAACP to join hands with them because the NAACP is ignorant of the church's racist past.

Radio Free Mormon [01:23:16] I think there has to be some quid pro quo there. And we know what the Church is getting for it, which is the public press events with the NAACP leaders. And I just expect that the double ACP wants to get something in return because I don't think it's redounding to the NAACP's benefit to have these public associations with the LDS Church.

Radio Free Mormon [01:23:40] So having said all of that. Having said all of that, I was talking with Gerardo earlier today, and he made an excellent point about a particular word that Elder Bednar used when he was talking about this and how this revealed a lot about what Elder Bednar knows and is not saying. It's all the stuff that we know about the LDS Church's past with regards race relations that he's not talking about. It's not my show. But Gerardo, would you mind telling the audience about that?

Guest [01:24:11] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:24:11] He says, unexpect. Two unexpected organizations are working together. What I was thinking, why are they unexpected to be working together if the church has been fighting racism since its beginnings? Like, you know, I can't remember his name. The 70 told us in his talk, why. Why would they be at odds with N wacp? And then he later adds Elder Bedner ads and says that two. Almost like saying, like, two opposite organizations can come together and work in unity. It's like, so weird to me. Almost like he's talking about an LGBT coalition. And I don't know. What do you think about that?

John Dehlin [01:25:06] Yeah, so he's not. He's not mentioning the church's racist past.

Guest [01:25:10] He's.

John Dehlin [01:25:11] They're doing nothing. You know, he's ignoring the racism in the Book of Mormon, that. That dark skin is a curse to make people loathsome, which is in the Book of Mormon. He's, you know, he doesn't acknowledge that we literally fought the civil rights movement, condemned Martin Luther King as a communist, and opposed the civil rights movement and the priesthood ban until 1978. And of course, it's unfair to expect, you know, the church has changed in a lot of those ways. So, yeah, you wouldn't expect them in a PR junket to. To mention all that. But he is not mentioning it. But then RFM, your point, I think, is.

John Dehlin [01:25:46] Is 1,000% valid. The church paid for those. Those are PR ops that the church paid for. The church gave millions of dollars to the naacp. And let's just face it, the NAACP has a price and you can buy their support with enough money. And I'm not saying that they would do a photo op with everyone.

Radio Free Mormon [01:26:07] Yeah, I don't think they do a photo op with the Ku Klux Klan at this point. And there's been enough time that's gone by. But, yeah, absolutely. They know what the.

John Dehlin [01:26:16] You're saying they have a bar.

Radio Free Mormon [01:26:17] Yeah, there's a standard there. No, I'm not trying to. There is a standard. I don't think that they would be linking hands With President Nelson, if the church still had a priesthood ban in place, let's put it that way.

John Dehlin [01:26:30] Right.

Radio Free Mormon [01:26:31] But I do want to say that when Elder Bednar, when he doesn't talk about the priesthood ban, what he does for everybody who knows about it and is there anybody in that whole room who doesn't know about the priesthood ban?

Radio Free Mormon [01:26:43] By not talking about it, what he's doing is making it so much louder. Yeah. By not talking about it. And if he just. And this would be my advice to him, Elder Bednar, I'm gonna, you know, you give me a call, we'll talk before your next public appearance.

Radio Free Mormon [01:26:58] Give a nod to it, at least. Say, we have not had the perfect record in our church with race relations and we regret that and that was wrong. But we're moving forward and we're trying to do better and we encourage all of us to try and do better in our relationships with other race and learning to live together. That would have knocked it out of the park, I think. Much better than just ignoring it completely and hoping and praying to Heavenly Father, that's a little under the banner of heaven joke and pray to Heavenly Father that nobody's going to bring it up and nobody's going to notice.

Gerardo Sumano [01:27:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's purchased PR. And then the other thing is all these scholarships and fellowships. So often when the church does these service projects, they're either PR like they're trying to. They want to make sure everybody knows we're going to talk about this later. Like Jesus said, do your alms in private. Right. So why is the church bragging about what it's doing?

Radio Free Mormon [01:28:02] No. Jesus says, do your alms with helping hands, T shirts with yellow vests. That's in there. That's in the jst. I looked it up.

John Dehlin [01:28:09] But, but it's hard because we're going to criticize the church for being wealthy. But then when the church does service.

Radio Free Mormon [01:28:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:15] They have to tell us about it or we wouldn't know about it. But then when they tell us about it, we complain that they're doing this service. So in some ways we have to be careful that we don't, you know, put the church in a position where they can't win. Yeah, but it's weird that they brag about this stuff.

clip [01:28:29] I know.

Guest 3 [01:28:30] You know, well, when it's in, when it's in a position where they're giving to something that they need to apologize about.

John Dehlin [01:28:36] Right.

Guest 3 [01:28:36] Then that's where it's kind of going too far. Like the, the Race in the priesthood needs an apostle to stand up and blatantly say, we were wrong. Yeah, that was wrong. We apologize. We need to stop all necessary avenues of this being out in the world. When there's an apology that needs to be made by the prophet. That's where it's like, no for me.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:06] Otherwise, it's almost like cover up. Right. Because they're talking about, oh, we donated all this money and expecting people to not know why they're doing it.

John Dehlin [01:29:17] That is such a great point, Jen. Thanks for bringing it home. What's blaring out here is that the church has never apologized for its racist past to this day in 2022, for the ban, for the. For the priesthood ban and for its racist past. For the racist statements of. Of past prophet seers and revelators that were published in church publications.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:36] They've disavowed them.

John Dehlin [01:29:38] They've disavowed them.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:39] But.

John Dehlin [01:29:39] But not apologized for them.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:43] And then. And then they haven't. They haven't fixed the Book of Mormon and the racism there. They haven't fixed the book of Abraham and the book of Moses and the racism there.

clip [01:29:52] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:29:53] So they. They haven't fixed it.

clip [01:29:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:55] And they haven't apologized to the Lamanites for teaching them that their skin is dark because of their ancestors were wicked. Like, there's atonement that needs to be made. And so that's a great point, Jen. These PR ops that the church buys and rfm, this is your point. It just screams out not only a lack of acknowledgment of the past, but a lack of still not fixing the race. Racial problems in the church.

clip [01:30:24] Yep.

Radio Free Mormon [01:30:24] Right. Then they're going to take those contributions for the photo ops that they have purchased, I believe, and I hope that's not too cynically said, but I think it's pretty realistic that they're going to take that money that they paid for those photo ops and then later on, I have got a feeling they're going to get transferred into what Elder Bednar is going to talk about as the. The money that the church has spent on humanitarian projects.

John Dehlin [01:30:49] For sure. For sure. Yeah. I love it. Okay, this is great analysis, everybody. I'm loving this team and I'm grateful for it. I also just want to thank. We just got a super chat donation from H. Benzula. For those of you joining us on YouTube, if. If you value, you know, this programming, you can show that by clicking on the dollar sign in the chat button and donating. If you're on Facebook and Watching us live. You can click on the stars feature and your donations just go to support our program. So thank you all so much for those donations. Now, Gerardo, we're going to go to your favorite topic, which is LGBT stuff. Elder Bednar is going to tell us how awesome the church is with LGBT people, and we're glad we have you to kind of give your analysis. You ready?

LGBT Rights, Same-Sex Marriage, and Church Policy

Gerardo Sumano [01:31:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:40] All right, here we go.

clip [01:31:44] On the issue of our LGBTQ members and friends, you may be familiar with the church's 2015 role in passing legislation in Utah to protect LGBTQ individuals from discrimination in housing, employment, and other rights. They, in turn, support securing the freedom of belief that we hold so dear. And we have continued to build on our accomplishments in Utah. This year, a bill in Arizona was introduced that would provide similar and even expanded protections for LGBTQ people. And we are working with other states on similar initiatives. Such legislation is the result of positive relationships fostered over time.

John Dehlin [01:32:33] All right, Gerardo, what do you. What do you think?

▶ Video Clip 8

Video Clip 8 [01:32:38] You should also know that at the federal level.

Video Clip 8 [01:32:40] Oh, sorry. There's more.

Video Clip 8 [01:32:41] We have been working with our LGBTQ allies to advance legislation of a similar nature. We are proud to stand with our LGBTQ brothers and sisters, some of whom are with us today in this important effort. It is hard work and an objective worth fighting for. While we may not agree on everything, we surely are building a foundation of mutual respect and understanding.

John Dehlin [01:33:13] Man, it's super hard work, Gerardo. So hard to work with you guys. It's like, almost impossible, but we're doing our best.

Gerardo Sumano [01:33:22] He's talking about. About Troy Williams. I think I've heard he can be difficult for the church, but. Yeah, so I. So I think someone like that's not very informed about what he's talking about would be like, oh, that's amazing. The church is helping LGBT people. I think we've covered this topic multiple times on. On Mormon stories, but this legislations that he's talking about really are not to protect LGBT rights, are to protect the church. So what. What is happening? And Elder Oaks talked about it pretty openly and candidly, and he said when he went to University of Virginia last year.

John Dehlin [01:34:08] And we can add that in the show notes because we did an episode on his visit to the University of Virginia. Yeah, keep going.

Gerardo Sumano [01:34:13] Elder Oaks said he pretty much admits that LGBT rights are gaining traction in the courts. So basically LGBT people are suing and then getting their rights through litigation. That's how gay marriage was. Was passed. That's why gay marriage is legal in the United States, because Not because of the church or because of legislation. It was because a case was taken to the Supreme Court. Then we have Bostock, that happened, I believe, last year, which gave LGBT rights at a federal level protections against discrimination in employment.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:00] And there's several others like this. So Elder Oaks admits that the church is realizing that this is happening and that they're not. This, these Supreme Court rulings are not considering religious exemptions. In fact, the Supreme Court is avoiding talking about how this will play out for religious institutions, especially religious institutions that have secular endeavors like BYU and the church, the BYU schools and the businesses that the church owns that the church would like to keep discriminating in this secular institutions. But because the Supreme Court rulings, they're really looking at.

Gerardo Sumano [01:35:49] The church is getting scared. And Elder Oaks pretty much says that. And Elder Oaks says, please, LGBT people, stop suing. Stop going to the courts. Let's compromise in legislation. So let's pass laws that protect your rights, but it also gives us exemptions. So what? We don't have to follow those laws, and we can keep discriminating against LGBT people. And that's the legislation that he's talking about that was passed in Utah. That is called the Utah Compromise. And that's the legislation that is. That they're trying to pass in Arizona. And then the one that he's talking about, the national level is the Freedom for All act that the church has been supporting.

Gerardo Sumano [01:36:33] That is pretty much a rewrite of the Equality act that will pretty much give this rights that, in my opinion, LGBT people already have. Biden already signed executive order, but the reason they're trying to pass it is so they can have exemptions that are currently not written in the law.

John Dehlin [01:36:59] Yeah. And so. And can I just say how outrageous it is to me that the church is like, okay, we'll begrudgingly allow gay people to not be fired from their jobs or evicted from their houses. We'll let that slide as long as you allow us to keep discriminating against LGBT people.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:25] As long as you allow us to keep doing that same stuff, you know?

John Dehlin [01:37:29] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:30] Taking people out of their houses at BYU when they. When they are in safe sex relationships, like losing their employment, you know, and.

John Dehlin [01:37:39] But we want credit for it.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:40] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:41] As being. As being non bigots.

Gerardo Sumano [01:37:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:43] Will let. Will. Will begrudgingly allow gay people to not be kicked out of their homes or not be fired if you let us still discriminate. But only if you. Only if you shower us with praise for. For being so progressive with our lovely gay friends who we Love like it is a real master stroke of pr, of bigotry and of discrimination masked as altruism. It's a masterstroke.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:14] Isn't it?

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:15] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:38:15] And it does. And it does. That's. That's what it does. It allows them to discriminate on their universities, which we've seen multiple examples of.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:27] Not only that, Elder Bedner, and they, the apostles know, and I'm sure they've been briefed on this. This laws that they're passing are useless for LGBT people. And they're useless because we've seen what happened with transgender students in Utah just a few. A couple months ago, where transgender students can't play sports in the state of Utah, even when we have the Utah compromise that it's supposed to protect that. Right.

Gerardo Sumano [01:38:55] So the church knows that this Utah compromise and the Arizona bill are useless for LGBT people. Those rights are already at the federal level. And at the end, Mormon legislators are still going to legislate laws that are going to discriminate against LGBT people at the end. But the rights that are protecting that, these laws that he's talking about that are protecting are the rights of the church to discriminate. And those are the ones that are.

Gerardo Sumano [01:39:24] Right now we don't know how everything is going to play out, but if. If these bills keep being passed, you know, then it's written into law. There's not much can be done after that.

clip [01:39:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:36] Really quick shout out to Colby Reddish for his super chat donation. Thank you, Colby. And to Mormon Neurodivergence for your super chat. I know, Gerardo, you felt so passionately about this and rightly so. Genuine rfm. Let's get you in on this. On this subject. Anything you want to add? Because you are such a sharp mind and you have such good analysis.

Radio Free Mormon [01:39:58] Two things. The first is that when Elder Bednar started talking about those familiar. Familiar with the church may be aware with. Of our 2015 role. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What?

John Dehlin [01:40:11] Yeah, yeah. Like what else did you not mention about 2015?

Radio Free Mormon [01:40:15] Yeah. Is he actually going to say it? No, of course not. He's going to say the other thing that happened earlier in the year and gonna completely omit the.

John Dehlin [01:40:22] What tell non Mormon what he's omitting. Just for those who don't know.

Radio Free Mormon [01:40:26] Oh, the fact that after the. The Oberfeld decision came down from the Supreme Court in 2015, which was, I think around September, it was a couple of months before they decided to sneak into the church handbook their reactionary policy to that, saying that not only are Homosexuals who are in a relationship that now because it's made legal, we're going to make it clear that if they're in a relationship, they are apostate under the definition, so they need to be excommunicated. And more problematic to my point of view is about the kids. And so if you've got children who, one of their parents is in a relationship that is homosexual, then those kids can't get baptized, they can't get blessed if they're a boy, they can't get the priesthood at 12 when everybody else would, and they can't go on a mission.

Radio Free Mormon [01:41:18] And unless they disavow, publicly disavow the offending parents lifestyle and get special permission from the first presidency, then they, I guess, I guess in one day they get baptized, they get the priesthood, they go to the temple and then they go on their mission.

Radio Free Mormon [01:41:35] But the thing that really struck me is that, you know, I'm not sure this is a master stroke. Maybe it is, maybe it fools some people. But the problem is, is that the church has spent decades spending untold amounts of sacred tithing dollars and untold amounts of effort and work trying state by state by state to defeat gay marriage. And of course, California is a big, well known example, but they have people who are members of the church in most legislatures in most states and they are contact people that they went to to give the marching orders to strategize with, to figure out how to best fight gay marriage.

Radio Free Mormon [01:42:20] They've been doing this for decades and now they lose. And now Elder Bednar is portraying the church as the champions of civil liberties for gay people, the LGBTQ community. The way he presents it, they are writing in, in their full polished armor on their white chargers. And if it weren't for the LDS church, I mean, who knows what would happen to these poor gay people and in this community. Because the way he presents it, everybody else is against them except for the Mormon Church. And it's at this point that he overplays his hand, I think. And I would tell him, you need to back off of that because you're getting perilously close to Bathus at this point, which is taking something that's supposed to be wonderful and artistic and incredible, but now it's appearing ridiculous in the public eyes because you've overplayed your hand.

Radio Free Mormon [01:43:18] This is the history. No, you're not the champions of civil liberties for anybody, frankly, and certainly not for this community that you fought against for forever. And now you're going to say, oh, we're the best thing that ever happened to them. And we're going to keep working. We're going to keep working on behalf of those gay people because their civil liberties are so important to us. And like Gerardo said. Yeah. The unspoken part is we're doing that because we've lost the game. And now we're trying to do a retreat and surrender and get some kind of treaty whereby we get to keep the thing that we've wanted all along.

Radio Free Mormon [01:43:55] We can't impose our religious beliefs on society anymore. So now we just want to be able to impose our religious beliefs within our own system.

Gerardo Sumano [01:44:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:05] Love it. Rfm. Such great analysis. Alan La Pratt writes. Thanks for highlighting what was blatantly left out of his talk. Berardo, you get the final word on this. Thanks, rfm.

Guest 3 [01:44:17] Wait, let me have a word then before Gerardo, because I'm gonna have let Gerardo have the last word because someone sent this to me the other day. It was posted by Latter Gay Stories.

John Dehlin [01:44:26] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:44:26] About BYU Idaho recently. And their, the bishops have to now there was something added to the questions they have to ask the student to be able to go to byu Idaho. There was an addition to the questions, and it says this. Does the student live abstinence from homosexual conduct? So it also asks some other things about pornography and absence before marriage and things like that. But that is a sentence that was added that didn't used to be there. And that's recent. That's like in the, someone posted that last week, so that that was added. So I don't believe they're making any progress there.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] No, definitely not.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's all I wanted to say.

Radio Free Mormon [01:45:18] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [01:45:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:45:20] All right. Yeah. Well, keep trying. LDS Church. I, I also just say it's, it was really disturbing to me. Just, I, I, I alluded to this, but just like, it's so hard to work with these people. But we're gonna keep trying.

clip [01:45:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:35] Like, wasn't Christ about, you know, the, the least of these? Like, shouldn't this be an honor and a privilege? And, and then, and then, of course, he's like, and we have a gay person up here on the stand. Like, I guess he called to Utah, had someone there. I don't know if he called to Utah as an active, faithful Mormon who's like a representative or a liaison. But again, it's like, see, I know a gay person. I, I have a gay friend. Like, we're good. It's, it's a little bit similar to the NAACP thing.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Guest [01:46:05] yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:05] I don't have really good opinions about equality Utah.

John Dehlin [01:46:08] But that's another show.

Gerardo Sumano [01:46:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] All right, well, that was great analysis. Thanks, Jen, RFM and Gerardo. Okay, so we're kind of wrapping up his talk. The next part is about our temple efforts and temple growth. We've covered this a bit on Mormon stories, but what does he have to say about temples? Here we go.

Temple Building Expansion and Use of Church Funds

▶ Video Clip 9

Video Clip 9 [01:46:33] Now I again emphasize matters that are us. We are building temples all over the world. Chile in Colorado, Guam, and Guatemala, Nigeria, New Zealand, and the Netherlands. We have come a long way since the Washington, D.C. temple was dedicated in 1974, the 16th temple in the church at that time.

Video Clip 9 [01:46:59] Presently, almost 300 temples are in operation, announced in design or under construction. President Nelson has announced 100 of those temples in his four very busy years as president. President of the church. These beautiful structures are located in 70 countries.

Video Clip 9 [01:47:20] Temples are distinctive from the thousands of our church meeting houses or chapels located around the world. Sunday worship services take place in meeting houses as well as youth gatherings, service projects, and other community events. All are welcome to join in any and all of these activities.

Video Clip 9 [01:47:42] Temples, once they are dedicated, are reserved for church members who are prepared to participate in our most sacred rites and ordinances. As I already mentioned, these lift, inspire, ennoble, and change participants as they accept the individual responsibility to follow the teachings and the example of Jesus Christ.

Video Clip 9 [01:48:07] Much like the children of Israel with their tabernacle and King Solomon's temple. We are a temple building and a temple loving people. And the spiritual promises we make in our temples today are fundamental to changing people from the inside out.

John Dehlin [01:48:27] All right, I have really strong feelings about all that, but I'll let you guys go first. Rfm. We'll let you go first this time because sometimes we keep the best for last. And no offense, panel, but just trying to show our family some love. Rfm Love it.

Radio Free Mormon [01:48:41] Well, if I'm going first, you're definitely saving the best for last.

Guest 2 [01:48:47] No

Radio Free Mormon [01:48:50] temples. I mean, this church is building temples or at least announcing temples like nobody's business. I'm glad to see that Elder Bednar remembers on what side his bread is buttered when he starts doing his. Oh, what would you call it?

Radio Free Mormon [01:49:05] Toting to President Nelson about how President Nelson has now announced 100 temples, 100 of those 300 temples in his very busy four years as president. And it has been theorized that the church is building temples like hell isn't having any. Not because there's enough members to justify it, but as an outward sign of an inward lack of grace, as an attempt to show that the church is stronger and more robust than it actually is, as represented by membership growth.

Radio Free Mormon [01:49:42] If that is true, then Elder Bednar has just used it exactly for that purpose, because he's talking about the number of temples in order to try and demonstrate to the audience how robust the growth of the church is. And that was the thing that I thought of when he was saying this.

John Dehlin [01:50:03] Beautiful. Thanks, rfm. Loved it. Gerardo, anything you want to add?

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:10] No, I. I think we've covered it a lot. Right. Like temple. Temple building and how the church could be using a lot of that money for other sauces.

John Dehlin [01:50:20] Yeah. So someone wrote that, like, why not feed the hungry?

Gerardo Sumano [01:50:22] Right.

John Dehlin [01:50:23] Why not clothe the naked?

Guest [01:50:24] Right.

John Dehlin [01:50:25] There's so many better uses for the church's massive treasure trove of wealth than, like, these ordinances and ordinances for dead people that really aren't going to benefit from them. Etc. I've got some strong feelings, but, Jen, I want you to go before I go. Anything else you want to add?

Guest 3 [01:50:44] No, I just kind of believe the same thing as rfm, that they're just trying. It's like a. They're trying to make it look like the church is growing and not shrinking. And I think that's their outward way of appearing.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:50:59] Like it is. But eventually I think it will probably catch up with them.

Guest 2 [01:51:06] But.

Guest 3 [01:51:06] Yeah, I'll let you.

John Dehlin [01:51:07] Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, if you watch Going Clear, the Scientology documentary, one of the ways it ends is that Scientology is so fraught and so on the ropes that they're massively declining in membership. They're. But they've invested so much money and they've been so successful financially that they're growing their revenue, their annual revenue and wealth, as their membership shrinking, which is leaving them with a bunch of empty buildings. And the Mormon Church is in the exact same state. They're hemorrhaging members, but because they've got hundreds of billions of dollars of wealth, they're becoming fantastically rich. But they're selling off. You can't go on ex Mormon Reddit any week without seeing buildings at the churches. They're shutting down wards, they're closing stakes, they're closing missions, they're collapsing units, and they're selling buildings. Right. So how can it be that they're massively selling off buildings, you know, chapels.

Guest 2 [01:52:13] But they're.

John Dehlin [01:52:14] But they're tripling the number of temples being built. That math doesn't work. Right. But then I thought about it and. Oh, and by the way, there's a Mormon Stories episode that we should link, leak, link to in the show notes where a member of a Mormon Stake high council along the Wasatch front shares with me leaked information from inside the temple department at church headquarters. And what the leak was was that a, a high level member of the church temple department was willing to share with me the fact that they're all wondering what Russell M. Nelson is doing. Because in the past when they built temples, it was like, okay, how many active members in the country are in the area?

John Dehlin [01:52:59] How many priesthood holders, how much tithing? Okay. Now the country has earned a temple, right? And that's why they built temples at kind of a moderate pace. But for some reason Elder Nelson just severed that. There's no logic now for why they build the temple. And he's just announced a hundred temples in four years. Temples and areas. Like there was a comment in some. Maybe one of you can show it.

Radio Free Mormon [01:53:27] New Zealand.

John Dehlin [01:53:27] Yeah. Like there's a commenter that said, yay, there's like 4,4000 members in the Netherlands and now they're going to build a temple here. Like they're building temples in New Zealand, in Rome and where there are like a massive decline in membership. Where like the church is about to disappear in some of these European countries.

Guest [01:53:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:45] And yet they're going to build a temple there. And it makes no sense, right? Even to the church temple department. It makes no sense, let alone the fact that they're announcing a gazillion temples but haven't even started building them yet. So. Jen, I think you're right. At some point it's going to catch up to them. But the, but the point that I wanted to make is, is I'm scratching my head thinking why would this be Russell M. Nelson's big initiative? And then it occurred to me, you guys want to hear why? Okay. Threefold mission of the church. Right? Perfect the saints. Right? Perfect. The saints proclaim the gospel and redeem the dead. Well, where are you going to put your money?

Guest 2 [01:54:23] Right?

John Dehlin [01:54:24] Proclaiming the gospel. Like you could invest all day long in the church missionary program. And what are we finding? The church is hammer. The. The church is declining. The, the. The. That dog is not hunting anywhere but in impoverished countries with a lack of education. So yeah, they're going to invest in Africa. And that's where all the mission growth is happening. That's where all the ward and state growth is happening, is in Africa.

John Dehlin [01:54:51] But that's because everywhere else in the world the church is hemorrhaging and shrinking, even in Latin America. Plus fewer and fewer Mormon are choosing to serve missions. And so you've got like two thirds of our missionary force now are female, and like two thirds of young Mormon men along the Wasatch front are choosing not to serve missions.

John Dehlin [01:55:13] So that's not a great place to put your money when you know the missionary program is literally bankrupt. Right. So then you've got perfecting the Saints. But what do we know is true about the Mormon Church? That the members are leaving in droves. The church is hemorrhaging its active membership. Do you want to invest in that? How are you going to turn that around?

John Dehlin [01:55:34] Well, what can you do with all your money? You can build a gazillion opulent buildings that are like flexes to the world. Look, we're so super rich and we're super powerful and we're super influential, and we're going to build an opulent, conspicuous, luxurious architectural structure in every major world city because that's all we can do with our money that actually will have anything to show for it. Now that's a probably a pretty cynical view, but, like, how else do we explain a hundred temples being announced in the past four years with a declining membership across the world? Those temples aren't going to be full of people performing temple ordinances.

John Dehlin [01:56:23] They're going to be empty for the large. For the, for the majority of the time that they're there, staffed by old people from the United States. They're just going to sit there and keep the lights on when. When there's no members actually performing temple or ordinances.

Guest 3 [01:56:39] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:41] So I don't know. That's my rant.

Guest 3 [01:56:42] And when they could do so much more good with the money. Yeah, I just remember it. That's one of the things for my first temple experience is going into the celestial room and looking up at the chandelier and being like, I wonder how many, like, people they could have fed with what that chandelier cost. Like, there's just. Yeah, there's a lot.

John Dehlin [01:57:08] Yeah, yeah. All right, well, that's my rant. Rfm. Do you think I'm too harsh in my rant?

Radio Free Mormon [01:57:16] No, I don't think so in this case, Dr. Delin. However, I do think that you raise a very good point, which is when it comes to people joining the church, well, money's not going to override their ability to choose whether they want to join the church. And when it comes to people leaving the church, money's not going to be able to override their decision to leave the church. And the good thing about buildings like temples is they don't have any free agency.

Gerardo Sumano [01:57:46] They can't leave.

John Dehlin [01:57:47] Temples can't choose whether they're, they're in the church. They can't leave the church. That's a great point. All right, well, and, and it's convenient because the next part of his talk is about the church growth and it by, by, by all accounts the church. But according to Elder Bednar, the church is doing great. So here's, here's, here's Elder Bednar on the church's awesome massive growth.

Church Growth Claims and Global Membership Trends

clip [01:58:15] Now let's consider President Hinckley's appearance at this lectern back in 2000 and his pragmatic introduction of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to members of the media. In that year, church membership was approaching 11 million. Today church membership is almost 17 million. Worldwide we have more than 31,000 congregations. More of our members live outside of the United States than within the United States. Church members speak over 160 languages. And while we are growing in the US our greatest expansion presently is occurring in Africa.

John Dehlin [01:58:59] All right, so yeah, 17 million members, 31,000 congregations more outside the U.S. we're not just an American church. More outside the U.S. than inside the U.S. and we're expanding in Africa like churches going bonkers. Gangbusters. Gerardo.

Guest 2 [01:59:16] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [01:59:17] So when he kept bringing up that number 31,000 congregations and then when he put it right next to the 17 million members members, I was like, there's no way this math adds up. Like so, so I just thought okay, let's put the best case scenario, like let's be super optimistic and say that there's 250 members. Just like a random number, 250 members in each congregation that are active and semi active attending.250 per congregation in the world. If you multiply that by the 31,000 congregations that the church that Elder Bedner is saying they have, that's only 775000 members. So where the other 9009 million that he's claiming they have?

John Dehlin [02:00:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what?

Guest 2 [02:00:15] What?

John Dehlin [02:00:15] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:00:16] And not all congregations have 200.

Gerardo Sumano [02:00:19] Right, right.

Guest 3 [02:00:20] That's like a super optimistic, optimistic number. Yeah, you know?

John Dehlin [02:00:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we just know that like we know that the church it probably 30 active activity rate across the world. Two thirds of all the people ever baptized Mormon no longer attend or even no longer identify as Mormon. At the most is 3 to 4 million. So the fact that he doesn't just say hey, we're really struggling and the church is struggling and we're Shrinking and we're scared and we don't know what to do.

Radio Free Mormon [02:00:53] He's.

John Dehlin [02:00:54] He's just going to go on this, this sort of diatribe about all the congregations and the statistical numbers, but this is a case where he's deceiving people, knowingly deceiving people. They should never, ever say that 17 million number.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:08] So someone just did the math. Like if we take the 17 million members and the 31, 000 congregation, that would be 500 to 600 members per congregation.

John Dehlin [02:01:21] Yeah. No way.

Guest 2 [02:01:22] No way.

John Dehlin [02:01:24] RFM, what do you want to say about the church going gangbusters in its growth?

Radio Free Mormon [02:01:28] Oh, I think it's okay for them to say 17 million. I think it's okay for them to say 31, 000 units. They just shouldn't say them both in the same. That's the problem because it totally gives away everything. And I do agree that Gerardo was being more than generous with 250 members in each ward. I thought it was like 200 members for a fully functioning.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:51] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:01:52] Ward. And the wards don't have 200 in them, by and large. And a lot of those units are not wards. They're also branches.

Gerardo Sumano [02:01:58] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:01:59] Which is going to reduce that number. So, yeah, this is the best case scenario that Harad has come up with for the church. I will note, however, because this is going to happen later. Elder Bednar is a statistician by training, and when it comes to counting beans that he feels are helpful to the church, he has all the numbers down pat.

Radio Free Mormon [02:02:22] But later on, when you get to the Q A, there's going to be pushback on a recent Salt Lake Tribune article about a more realistic view of the membership numbers of the LDS Church throughout the United States. And as soon as he gets pushed back on that, he's going to drop the statistician hat. He's actually going to say, okay, well, I'm a statistician, I'm an academic, but I'm going to answer that one as an apostle, not as a statistician. And as an apostle. Hell if I know. I don't know what the numbers are. That's really his answer.

John Dehlin [02:02:57] We have, we have a con. We have a donation and a comment. Jacob Berg, thank you for the super chat. Jacob Berg. He writes active church members shrinking here in Switzerland. Thanks for keeping us informed. And it's not just in Switzerland, Jacob. In Scott, we. I was just in the uk, the church is hemorrhaging in Scotland, it's hemorrhaging in England, it's hemorrhaging in Germany, Netherlands, France, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Japan, Hong Kong, everywhere except for Africa. And we're going to talk about this later. But what's. What, what is it about Africa? The church preys on people in poverty who are uneducated. And that's where the church is going to grow. And everybody else who's got a decent economy with decent levels of education, they don't want the Church.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:44] They're playing the same strategy that they did with Latin America before the Internet age.

John Dehlin [02:03:49] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:50] So in Latin America, not a lot of information before Internet.

Guest 3 [02:03:55] You know, that's what I, I keep thinking. They don't have Internet.

Gerardo Sumano [02:03:58] Yeah. And now the Latin America, you know, have, has like access to information. All of a sudden, church's growth is declining and active membership declining.

John Dehlin [02:04:12] Yeah, yeah. So it's the, you know, the church is, the church is hemorrhaging. The world doesn't really know that and the Church doesn't acknowledge it, but it's a fact and it's a huge problem. And we're going to talk more about this in the Q A. But, but. All right, so the next thing we're going to talk about is the Church's massive humanitarian aid. They really want to emphasize this.

Guest 2 [02:04:37] So let's.

Radio Free Mormon [02:04:38] Oh my gosh. You're going to play this whole thing, John, because this is where I got about the only nap I've gotten in 24 hours when I was listening to this for the first time this morning in preparation for this show.

John Dehlin [02:04:48] Do you think it's too long? Do you think it's too long?

Radio Free Mormon [02:04:51] I don't. Well, yes, I do. It, I know it can't be longer than the talk itself, but it seems to be hours and hours. So just let me know. I'll just plump up my pillow here and you let me know when it's over. Okay.

Humanitarian Aid Spending and Financial Transparency

John Dehlin [02:05:02] All right.

Radio Free Mormon [02:05:03] All right. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:05:05] Thanks. Thanks. Oh, sorry. One second. Okay, here we go. Oh, why isn't it playing?

Gerardo Sumano [02:05:14] Can you make it full screen? Oh, I can do it.

▶ Video Clip 10

Video Clip 10 [02:05:17] There we go. As these examples demonstrate, change also is necessary from the outside in. Generous donations from our church members as well as friends of the Faith allow us to support the initiatives I just described. And many, many 20 years ago, President Hinckley mentioned that the church completed 829 humanitarian projects in 101 countries.

Video Clip 10 [02:05:50] Last year that number was 909 projects in 188 countries. And this was just one portion of a comprehensive 906 million million dollar effort to care for those in need. You have on your tables the latest annual humanitarian report from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Video Clip 10 [02:06:13] I briefly want to provide just two examples of initiatives our church supports. First, around the world we assist in digging wells and providing clean water, a common and critical need in poorer parts of the world. In many places in Africa, for instance, women devote a considerable amount of time every day procuring and hauling water for home use.

Video Clip 10 [02:06:41] In some locations, a woman may need to walk for many hours to and from a well. My wife Susan and I have witnessed the indescribable delight of small children splashing in and drinking clean water from a new well.

Video Clip 10 [02:06:59] What may seem commonplace to so many of us is the blessing of a lifetime for so many others and makes it possible for these women to pursue education. And second, we are assisting with refugees and those displaced by the conflict in Ukraine as Well as in 27 other neighboring European countries.

Video Clip 10 [02:07:25] The Church is supporting multiple organizations, including UN agencies as well as K Red Cross in providing items such as shelter, bedding, food and hygiene and baby supplies. In 2020 and 2021, in response to supply issues experienced during the pandemic, 2,800 truckloads of commodities from the church's storehouse system were delivered to nearly 400 food banks, homeless shelters and other charitable organizations across the U.S. this equated to more than 82 million meals for those in need.

Video Clip 10 [02:08:05] Outside of North America, the church works with local grocery chains to help provide food to members in need. As an organization, our humanitarian efforts are guided by our commitment to live God's sake second great commandment to love our neighbors.

Video Clip 10 [02:08:21] We partner with global and other faith based organizations as they work within an established set of humanitarian principles. This work extends far beyond our church members and our volunteers continue to help with cleanup and recovery from disasters for many weeks and even months after the initial event.

Video Clip 10 [02:08:44] We remain in place long after media coverage wanes and global volunteers move on to the next urgent emergency. In 2021, the church supported 135 mobility projects such as wheelchairs in 57 countries and territories, hosted 3,000 blood drives, resulting in 100,000 units donated and assisted seven major immunization campaigns, including significant financial donations to help UNICEF take COVID 19 immunizations to dozens of countries. UNICEF works in some of the world's most challenging places. To reach the world's I'm going to

John Dehlin [02:09:27] go ahead and just do an executive decision and kind of pause. The church just lists a gazillion humanitarian efforts like Covid, the Ukraine Poverty Water

Gerardo Sumano [02:09:41] member, helping members with fast offerings. You know, with the he Mentions even that.

John Dehlin [02:09:47] I mean, so. So to try and like, in the spirit of rfm, trying to kind of be fair and balanced. Right. Like, why shouldn't our reaction be, wow, this is. Is our reaction like, wow, the church is doing a lot of good. Shouldn't we just sort of give credit where credit is due and saying the church is delivering clean water to people who need it. They're helping Ukrainian refugees. They're helping with the pandemic and a gazillion other humanitarian efforts. Who wants to go first? Gerardo? You? You know, I love it.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:19] I love it. I think that's great. But I think critics have a lot to be thanked for.

clip [02:10:30] For.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:30] For like the church, Churches doing. Putting all this money into this. And is it okay if we show just the slides really quick and then we comment just to give the context?

John Dehlin [02:10:40] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:10:41] So you.

John Dehlin [02:10:41] You developed some slides?

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:42] Yeah. And this is. This is based on what he just said, but so I just put it into years just so people can see it.

John Dehlin [02:10:48] Okay, okay, okay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:10:49] Visually. So he mentioned in 2000, he mentioned that President Hinckley at the national press conference. President Hinckley announced 829 projects in 101 countries. I went and looked for President Hinckley stock, and he talks about $55.2 million of total donation from the previous year. And this was in 2000. Then if you go to the next one, I remember this article from the Desert News where Elder Oaks. This is again another press conference, and Elder Oaks says that the church spends on welfare and humanitarian efforts an average of 40 million per year. And he says that's 1.2 billion on welfare and humanitarian efforts over the past 30 years.

Gerardo Sumano [02:11:46] So if you do 40 million and then multiply it by 30 years, you get 1.2 billion. And that's what Elder Oak says. That's what the church has been spending. And that confirms what. What President Hinckley said, you know, the 50 million in 2000.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:01] So it's pretty much confirmed the same amount. So it seems like the church is spending anywhere from 50 to 40 million dollars every year on humanitarian effort. Then if you go to the next slide, then in 2020, all of a sudden we have the 100 billion fund leaked.

John Dehlin [02:12:16] The inside peak.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:17] Yeah, the inside peak Advisor investment.

John Dehlin [02:12:21] It's actually like 120 billion.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:23] Right?

John Dehlin [02:12:23] Everything. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:24] So all of a sudden this is known and everyone is like, that's crazy. The church is only donating $40 million when they have a hundred billion, you know, in their investment in just one investment fund. What is Going on. And then if you go to the next one, then all of the sudden, Elder Bednar, two years later, announces that the previous year, the humanitarian efforts

Radio Free Mormon [02:12:52] are

Gerardo Sumano [02:12:52] 22 times more than it had been in previous years. So 906 million. If you go to the next slide, that just shows like, that's a real representation of what it looks like. So we have 50 to 40 million dollars every year from 2000 to 2016. We don't know 2017, 18, 19, 20. And then we have, you know, 20, 21, 909. 900 million dollars donated.

John Dehlin [02:13:20] That is a funny slide.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:23] And I just Google like, I was wondering, like, how. How does this compare to other.

John Dehlin [02:13:28] Okay, wait.

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:29] Philanthropists.

John Dehlin [02:13:30] So is your point. Is your. Is your point that the church is lying?

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:33] No, no, no, no. I'm not saying.

John Dehlin [02:13:35] Or do you think that the church just realized it had a PR problem and just massively increased, or did they jimmy the numbers and start counting? No, a lot of other things. Like, what's your summarize your point there, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [02:13:48] I think. I think Elder Oaks made it really clear that that was all. That was all the donations the church was doing in aggregate, 40 million. So I don't think the numbers. I mean, I think our friend will have some insights on the numbers. But. But I think what's happening is because the media starts hammering the church, you have a hundred billion dollars, and you're only donating 40 million in humanitarian aid per year. All of a sudden then they have to say, okay, let's donate 1% of that $100 billion instead of 0.00, you know, something percent.

John Dehlin [02:14:22] And I guess it's disappointing that the church wouldn't. It's basically the church got caught with its hand in the cookie jar.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:29] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:14:29] And it wasn't altruistic, you know, Christ inspired motives of helping the poor. It's like the church got caught with its hand in the cookie jar of getting fabulously wealthy. Yeah. Off of its membership. And so it said, okay, I guess we'll do some humanitarian efforts now.

Gerardo Sumano [02:14:46] Yeah. Otherwise you would see like an. An increase. Right. But we have from 2000 to 2016 and even 30 years before that, we have Elder Oak saying that that's how much the church is spending in humanitarian aid.

John Dehlin [02:14:59] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:14:59] Do they ever break that down? Like the humanitarian.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:03] They broke it up a little bit. Not. They don't give you the exact.

Guest 3 [02:15:06] Not to the exact. I'm just wondering what's included, But IRFM

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:10] has some insights in that.

John Dehlin [02:15:11] Okay, so you're. Then you're gonna make the point about like other philanthropists.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:15] Yeah, Just really quick. I just was wondering, okay, what are the biggest philanthropists in the world? How much are they worth? You know, we have. I have three examples. Bill, Bill Gates and Melinda Gates are worth $125 billion. And they donated $15 billion last year in 2021.

John Dehlin [02:15:32] That's in one year.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:33] In one year. That's the 2021 year. Okay, one year.

John Dehlin [02:15:37] All right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:37] And then the next one is Michael Bloomberg. He's worth $82 billion and he donated $1.7 billion.

John Dehlin [02:15:46] And then in a year.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:47] In a year, 2021. Yeah, there it is. That's from the AP.

John Dehlin [02:15:51] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:15:52] And then Mark Zuckerberg, $71.5 billion. That's his worth. And then he donated $1.05 billion.

John Dehlin [02:16:02] Okay. And then the church, again, the church donated how much in 2021?

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:07] Less than $1 billion.

John Dehlin [02:16:09] So like, so basically like individual billionaires

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:14] are out who are worth less than what the church is worth, are donating more than what the church donated.

John Dehlin [02:16:22] And the church is supposed to be a Christ centered organization, a charity, a non profit.

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:28] Yeah. And forever that's worth, you know, like, I mean, it's great. 900 compared to 40 million that they were donating before. Better. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:35] Better for sure.

Guest 3 [02:16:36] But is it. What would you. What Jesus would do?

John Dehlin [02:16:39] Yeah. Yeah. All right, Gerardo, so you have a couple more slides.

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:43] Just that.

Guest [02:16:44] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:16:45] This is from the Salt Lake Tribune. And this is an article where he. They talk how the LDS Church made $22 billion during the pandemic. Just on, on one of the funds that they made public after, after the leak.

John Dehlin [02:16:57] Plus the church. The church filed for like PPP loans and stuff. So they got a gazillion dollars from the federal government.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:04] Yeah. Oh, I have the last one.

John Dehlin [02:17:06] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:08] Yeah, that's. That's only for federal aid for BYU schools.

John Dehlin [02:17:13] For their 2018.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:14] In 2018, 261 million. They received $261 million from the federal government to support BYU schools. That's one fourth of the amount of money that they donated last year to charity.

John Dehlin [02:17:28] Right? Yeah. All right. Yeah. And then. Yeah. And then there's just the question of the PPP loans and how much did the church bring in?

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:38] So your basic point is the church is. Eve number one, it only is paying way too little for way too long. Then all of a sudden he got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. Then it. Then it all of a sudden increased its expenditures. But even then, it's far too low relative to Other wealthy people, let alone organizations.

Gerardo Sumano [02:17:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:59] Yeah. All right. Rfm. Do you want to add anything to what Gerardo said?

Radio Free Mormon [02:18:06] Just a couple of things. Since I heard my name mentioned. I think that one of the things is that Gerardo's point isn't that the church or that Elder Bednar is lying. That's more my point because I don't believe that for a second. I don't believe for a second that they suddenly increased their contributions 22 fold over the last three decades or whatever it was. So. But this is what happens. These are statistics. Everybody knows the old expression there are lies. Damn lies. And statistics. And statistics can be made to say whatever it is you want them to say, especially when you're not giving the details behind them.

John Dehlin [02:18:46] Oh, sense point.

Radio Free Mormon [02:18:48] Yeah. I have heard, though I cannot confirm, that the LDS Church, of course, encourages its members to go out to all of these disasters with their yellow Helping Hands advertising T shirts, and they then report the number of days and hours they worked. And then they have bean counters in Salt Lake who add up the hours, assign some kind of a value to the hours, which may or may not be minimum wage or maybe more than that. And then they do the calculations, add up all the. The money that is never doesn't even exist. Right. That these people would have been paid if they had been paid for the volunteer work they're doing at these disaster sites, and that those get incorporated as well into donations that the church claims that it makes. Has anybody else ever heard that?

John Dehlin [02:19:43] Yeah, that just makes sense to me that. That those numbers are inflated, that they basically got some Bain or McKinsey consultant to say, wait a minute, let's look at how we value. Let's look at how we count our annual charitable contributions. Let's include service hours, and let's do some massive bloated calculation. But to Jen's point, if you don't show what's spent, how it's spent, where it's spent, it's literally. It could be just made up out of thin air.

Radio Free Mormon [02:20:14] Yeah. This was a great thing that. That Gerardo did with this graph and everything, because if you take it as being honest and correct, why the huge jump? Which is his point. And if you don't take it as being honest and correct, why the huge jump anyway? Right. I mean, it. It beggars belief to think that something that's been so static for 30 years suddenly jumps up like that, like a sore thumb. And I would say that the main thing I want to take away from this and I want the audience to remember is that David Bednar is the master of statistics. He is the master of the numbers.

Radio Free Mormon [02:20:54] He is the number cruncher bean counter part excellence. And he's demonstrated it with all these different things. And you haven't even played them all because you know it was going to kill us to listen to them all. In fact, that was a good strategy. Put your audience to sleep.

John Dehlin [02:21:08] Sorry.

Radio Free Mormon [02:21:08] Before you get to the Q and A, I think that was brilliant. But please remember that I. I almost wish that we could go right now to that Q A where he gets the pushback. I'm not saying you need to, but where he gets the question about the. The. The statistics and the membership. And it appears to be going down. And you're saying it's going up. But what about this and all these statistics? And then all of a sudden he doesn't know statistics from anything. You know, he doesn't know the numbers. Nobody told him about the numbers. And he. He specifically says, well, I'm not going to answer that as a statistician because that would crucify me. Instead, I'm going to answer it as an apostle. And as an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, I'm going to tell you, I got no idea what the numbers are.

John Dehlin [02:21:54] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:21:54] I'm just an apostle.

John Dehlin [02:21:57] Yeah. No, and we are. We. We are really excited to play the Q A. Viewers and listeners, if you think this has been cool. And we've got 800 sustained viewers right now, so people are loving this episode. It's way better. The Q A. But we did.

clip [02:22:14] We.

John Dehlin [02:22:15] I just felt like it was important to take our time to analyze the Church's PR spin. Yeah, separate. That's what. See, the PR spin is the premeditated, you know, impression the Church wants to give people. That's different from how he reacts to kind of questions that he may or may not had been given beforehand. But, but if you have enjoyed what we've done so far and what we're going to do just for the remaining time of this part one, please come back for part two. Because the Q A is explosive in rfm, we're really hoping we. We're going to be able to get you back for part two.

Radio Free Mormon [02:22:49] Well, just be sure and let me know less than four hours before you go live. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:22:53] It's all.

Radio Free Mormon [02:22:54] Otherwise I'd be disappointed.

John Dehlin [02:22:55] It's 100 Gerardo's fault. No, it's hard. We have her order to thank because we wouldn't have done this episode without her order.

Radio Free Mormon [02:23:02] So, yeah, he's done a lot of Work. He's excellent. And I think John Gerardo deserves a raise.

John Dehlin [02:23:07] Okay. I think I just gave him one. Is that true, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [02:23:10] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:23:12] Bravo.

John Dehlin [02:23:13] He just got one.

Radio Free Mormon [02:23:14] Good job.

John Dehlin [02:23:15] All right. Oh, and by the way, support Radio Free Mormon podcast. Donate to Radio Free Mormon. Donate to Bill Real. Donate to Mormonism Live. Because rfm, if anyone deserves a raise, it's you, brother.

Radio Free Mormon [02:23:28] Yes, well, thank you. I, I think that all the live chats that have been racked up during the show, we're earmarked to Radio Free Mormon, now that you mention it.

John Dehlin [02:23:37] All right, we'll make sure. We'll cut you a check. We tried. We cut you a decent check when you came to Salt Lake, didn't we? Rfm?

Radio Free Mormon [02:23:45] Yes, you did. And I appreciate it. I just, I'm kidding. And I kid because I love, I'm

John Dehlin [02:23:49] like the Mormon Church. I want credit for the good that I do.

Radio Free Mormon [02:23:53] Yes. Well, not really because the LDS Church wants credit for the good it does with other people's money.

clip [02:24:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:01] All right.

Guest 2 [02:24:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:24:02] Well, let's, let's, let's go to now. Now Bednar is going to talk about kind of the, the remaining missions of the church. And the first one he's going to talk about is the missionary program. So let's hear how awesome the church's missionary.

Gerardo Sumano [02:24:15] And you said this is the last one we're going to play.

John Dehlin [02:24:17] No, there's a couple more slides. There's like three or four more slides and then, and then we'll stop for today. Well, maybe we'll bring on a couple people who've been waiting patiently. If any of you want to join and provide commentary, now would be the point for you to click on the link and join. And for those who have been really patient, we promise to bring you on as, as some closing thoughts for this part. 1. But let's quickly just talk about, hear what Bedner has to say about the church's missionary program. Okay, so for some. All right, so here we go.

Missionary Program, Education, and BYU Pathway

clip [02:24:49] Our church presently has more than 91,000 missionaries serving around the world, primarily young men and women. Each is a volunteer funding the experience individually or with help from family or other members of the church. Our missionaries help to fulfill the scriptural mandate to go ye, therefore, for and teach all nations. Our missionaries teach the gospel of Jesus Christ and help others on their spiritual journey to become more like the Savior. Every missionary learns the life changing lesson that he or she is part of something greater and more important than self. These women and men are one of the most recognizable features of our church. As they live among and bless people, people in communities around the world. We always have been and always will be a missionary oriented church.

John Dehlin [02:25:44] All right, so my first question is like, like, is that, is that what missionaries do? Mormon missionaries help people become like Jesus and bless people around the world? Like, is that, how do you guys feel about his characterization of the Mormon missionary program?

Radio Free Mormon [02:26:01] Program?

John Dehlin [02:26:02] Any, any thoughts, Jen?

Guest 3 [02:26:05] I think the young people going into serving a mission go in with that pure thought. I think they, they go in with a heart of service and to help people better their life. I think the young people really do think that way. I think they, they do have a pure heart in it.

John Dehlin [02:26:30] Is there a but there?

Guest 3 [02:26:31] The church, on the other hand,

clip [02:26:37] It,

Guest 3 [02:26:38] I think a lot, what I hear from people who have been through their faith transition and look back at their mission, they, there's a sadness in it for them because they know that a lot of those people that they converted were actually better, often happier in the life that they had before they were converted to the LDS faith. And so there's a certain sadness that they have to kind of work through in their faith transition. And so there's that, there's that, that part to think about that they, they weren't, they weren't, you know, they were happier before. And it's, it's hard to think about that.

John Dehlin [02:27:35] You're saying then they're going to people to tell them their way of life is wrong and inferior.

Guest 3 [02:27:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:40] And that they need to join the true church, which will give them the

Guest 3 [02:27:43] most happiness, which then ostracizes them from their families, which then takes them away, which then, you know, it's just, it's just, I don't know, it reminds me of Mark Oslin. Oslin, interview with Margi recently. Just that his, his family was amazing and beautiful and his parents were doing awesome and like as non Mormon. As non Mormon. You know, they had this beautiful, happy relationship with him and it was so close. And then when he was baptized and then, you know, these things were.

John Dehlin [02:28:25] All of a sudden he's estranged from

Guest 3 [02:28:26] his mom, he's estranged, his, his athletic career is taken away. You know, there's just a lot of things that went into that and it's, it's just not true. It's just not true.

John Dehlin [02:28:37] And he's wracked with shame and guilt that he.

Guest 3 [02:28:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:39] You know, and.

Guest 3 [02:28:41] Yeah, it comes with a lot. There's just a lot. It's just not that simple. And it, and it's not true.

John Dehlin [02:28:46] Yeah.

Guest 2 [02:28:47] That.

John Dehlin [02:28:48] What were you always. Yeah. Thank You, Jen. That's beautiful. Gerardo, what were your reactions?

Gerardo Sumano [02:28:54] I think I had good and bad experiences on my mission. But something I would say it was that it came with a lot of shame with not being perfectly obedient. So there's a lot of emphasis on missions of being perfectly obedient, that if you're not doing the tiniest thing right, God is not going to blaze. Bless you. To find the right people to teach, and they're gonna lose their part on In Heaven.

Gerardo Sumano [02:29:26] A lot of focus on numbers. And this I've heard from, you know, so many people, too. It's not really the focus to really bring people close to Jesus. No, it's getting them through the lessons quickly, as fast as possible, making sure they go show up to church 2, 3, 4 times so they can meet the requirements to get baptized and then move on, you know, move on to the next family. And my mission, we were discouraged to do service projects that were not going to take us, that we're not going to really bring or help us find new people to teach.

John Dehlin [02:30:07] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:10] So, yeah, I mean, you're not really teaching people about Jesus. You're teaching them about Joseph Smith, about some passages of the Book of Mormon and telling them, teaching them tithing and love, chastity and pretty much the que. So they are ready to answer the

John Dehlin [02:30:32] questions for their baptism and Mormon priesthood authority and prophet worship, basically right here.

Gerardo Sumano [02:30:38] I know my sister didn't even teach the Ten Commandments because they were. Even though it's part of the preach my gospel, they. They were told by their mission president, like, you don't have to teach that. Just teach whatever is necessary for the baptismal interview.

John Dehlin [02:30:52] Faith repentance, Baptism. Yeah, yeah. Rfm, what do you want to add to his comments about the missionary program?

Radio Free Mormon [02:31:03] You notice he says over 91,000?

Gerardo Sumano [02:31:05] Yeah, I noticed that, too.

Radio Free Mormon [02:31:07] I mean, he's really trying hard to make Elder Holland's prediction come true.

John Dehlin [02:31:12] What's wrong with 91,000?

Radio Free Mormon [02:31:14] Well, only that he's talking about it in terms of they're being recognizable. They're primarily young people. They're basically the proselytizing missionaries. Like I was like you were like most of us were. And then there's 31,000, apparently, service missionaries that they want to lump in with the proselytizing missionaries in order to pump it up to over 91,000. But these service missionaries, by and large, I'm not an expert on everything a service missionary does. They used to have an idea that they'd go out and perform. Perform service for People, you know, and be helpful. But I think that usually they're just sort of free labor for the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [02:31:58] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:31:59] To run their different visitor centers or

John Dehlin [02:32:04] landmarks or unpaid temp labor, like financials and missions. My stepmom that my dad's married to, when she served a mission as a, as a, you know, retired person, she was like an administrative assistant to a general authority. So she would just. She was basically answering phones and like a secretary. She actually, I think she got kind of sick of it. Like, this is why I feel like I'm in an office job. Right. Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:32:29] So. So he's going to lump all those people that the Church conscripts into free labor for the church under the auspices of, oh, this is a church mission for you. He's going to pump that into the 60, some odd thousand, maybe 67,000 missionaries that they count, who are actually what normally we think of as missionaries, to pump it up to 91, 000. And all I'm saying is, yes, you can justify that using the definitions that the church itself has put upon these temporary hirings. And they're not even hiring. I mean, these people have to pay for it, right? Yeah, they've got to pay for the privilege of working for the Church.

Gerardo Sumano [02:33:15] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:33:16] Which is great as far as the Church goes. But this is just an example of how he could justifiably defend his use of that inflated number. What I see is an inflated number, but he's doing it. He's giving a overly optimistic representation of how well the Church is doing and how great the Church is doing when the reality is substantially less than what he's representing. And he does this throughout. This is just an. Another example of it.

John Dehlin [02:33:50] Yeah. And we already know now that like two thirds of, of active Mormon youth that are active by the age of 16, 2/3 are choosing not to serve missions. Right. Yeah. And, and the overall number of, of missionaries is, is, has been declining.

Gerardo Sumano [02:34:08] A lot of them are coming back early.

Guest [02:34:09] Why?

John Dehlin [02:34:09] Why? Yeah, a full third. A full third of the Mormon missionaries are coming home early, losing their faith, not to mention the unsafe conditions, the poor mental health services. There's, there's a lot of problems with the missionary program. And he's kind of just like saying it's all peach keen.

John Dehlin [02:34:29] Thanks, arifm. That, that's brilliant. And I'll just, I'll just say, yeah, these are paid salesmen. Right. And the Church will admit that. Sorry, there's salesmen who pay to be salesmen. Imagine if Microsoft or IBM said, yeah, you can help us sell Software. If you, if you Pay, you know, $20,000 a year, we'll let you sell our software for us, like so. Yeah, it's, it's a really interesting way to frame it. And, and I think most people will acknowledge that the, that the Mormon Church missionary program program first and foremost is to seal these Mormon youth to the church. It's to basically give them what I think everyone will agree is the most cult. The most cultish part of Mormonism is serving a Mormon mission.

Radio Free Mormon [02:35:18] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:35:19] You're separated from your family. You're highly controlled. You can't watch tv, you can't read the newspaper, you can't date. You're working for the church from 7:30am till 10:30 at night. Super strict rules. And it's all to sort of really seal your commitment to the church.

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:38] You have a partner that is checking, you know, following the rules.

John Dehlin [02:35:41] You literally can only be alone when you're in the bathroom.

Gerardo Sumano [02:35:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:45] For two years.

clip [02:35:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:47] And it's, it's for, it's to com. It's to convert the, the Mormon members as youth to the church so that then they're lifelong committed to the church.

Gerardo Sumano [02:36:00] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:36:00] Yeah. And. Yeah. So, okay, so that's the missionary program. Let's do education really quick. And this is. I wonder if we want to skip this part. I don't know. But basically he does this big, long diatribe about how early converts to the church were poor and uneducated.

John Dehlin [02:36:18] That, that there's this interesting statistic. I'm not going to play this clip because it's so long, but he basically makes the statistic that within Mormonism, the more educated you are, the more devoted you are to the church. And that may not be the case in other religious traditions. He talks about all the different BYU's, BYU Provo, BYU Idaho, BYU Hawaii, Ensign College.

John Dehlin [02:36:43] He talks about the BYU Pathway Program where they're offering free or discounted education to people all over the world, especially in developed developing countries. He talks about people in the Philippines and Nigeria and Mexico using the BYU Pathway program to get their education for super cheap. And then he talks about how the church's education can lift people spiritually and temporally.

John Dehlin [02:37:11] And that's. And I'm, I'm not going to play the clip because it's too long. Gerardo, do you have any strong feelings about that, that sort of part of the program?

Gerardo Sumano [02:37:20] Yeah, maybe about Pathway. So I know it's not free. People have to pay money to, to do it. The actual pathway program, it's like a religious religion course that you have to pay to the church to get this like one year, three semester religion course. So then, then you can be admitted into BYU Idaho Online. Right. And then you used to have only like two or three options for majors.

Gerardo Sumano [02:37:53] But most people stop after Pathway, and I know that because my mom did Pathway and she was super involved with it in Mexico and she was, I think, the first person member in Mexico to graduate with an actual bachelor's degree in Mexico. Because most people will just stop after Pathway. And my sense is that the church just wants to have people go through Pathway, give them maybe like a certificate because then they're like being more involved with church. I mean, the whole three semesters you're reading conference talks and you know, like reading scriptures and writing papers about it. And anyway, so this whole Pathway initiative, I have kind of like conflicting feelings about it.

John Dehlin [02:38:41] Okay, Jen.

Guest 3 [02:38:44] Yeah, I took it for a semester and Pathways. Yeah, it's just like Corrado said, it's, it's all doctrinal kind of religious indoctrination. Yeah, yeah. And you're paying for it and. Yeah, and then after, you're paying for religious indoctrination.

John Dehlin [02:39:04] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:39:04] And then afterwards, you know, there was, there were certificates or there was a discount from BYU Idaho Online that you receive if you finish Pathways.

John Dehlin [02:39:18] So it's like an online seminar as a gateway funnel program into BYU Idaho. Yeah, yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:39:26] But most people won't make it into BYU Idaho or if they make it, they'll take a couple semesters.

Guest 3 [02:39:30] I didn't because I still had kids and like, it just was still not working for me. Even though I tried, it still wasn't working for me.

Gerardo Sumano [02:39:38] And it's almost like Pathway was designed to make it so unrealistic on how really BYU Idaho classes are going to be. And because I, I know that so many people, okay, they, they started their first semester BYU Idaho Online thinking that it was going to be like Pathway and they're like, oh, this is actual college online. I can't do. I mean, I think my mom took like six years doing her major. Six or seven years doing her major. Because, you know, I mean, the, the expectations are unrealistic when people enter into Pathway about how, really how much, how time consuming is going to be.

Guest 3 [02:40:15] I could see that.

John Dehlin [02:40:20] Rfm, what do you want to say about his. You know, there's this, there's this idea that the more educated you get, the more devoted you are to the church. You're an attorney. But, but what were your reactions to his comments about education?

Radio Free Mormon [02:40:34] First off, who can argue with the idea that education is a good thing. Right. It's hard to argue with that. But on the other hand, it sounds like from what I'm hearing about the Pathways program is that as with everything else, education is used as a missionary tool.

Radio Free Mormon [02:40:54] And I suddenly flash back to my time in Japan when we would have English classes for the Japanese youth to come in and learn English. I don't know if you had anything like that on your mission, John. Maybe you're too busy with the baseball games and everything, but no, that. And we all know what we're doing as missionaries. We're trying to give the youth of Japan something that they want, which is to learn English. But the point of it is not to teach them English. The point of it is to teach them Mormonism and baptize them.

Radio Free Mormon [02:41:29] So it sounds like even though education as a principle is good, it seems to be being used at least to some extent. I don't want to say completely in the LDS Church, but to some extent for indoctrination and hopefully conversion. The other thing I was going to say about the question that you asked me, John, was about the more educated you are, the more faithful you are to the church. I think this came from some kind of a survey that was done a number of years ago, and they're comparing educational degrees with church observance and finding Mormon pretty high on both of those. So suggesting a correlation between the two.

Radio Free Mormon [02:42:07] Yeah, and that certainly may be true. But what I think would be more relevant is to ask the question, if the more educated you are about church history means that you're more faithful, because I think that that survey is going to go the other way.

clip [02:42:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:32] Yeah. Yep. Thank you, rfm. That's brilliant. And I'm just gonna say, like, when they plug BYU Provo, you know, he. He starts out talking about the value of education, and then, you know that education is important. And then he plugs BYU's. Is BYU really about getting a great education?

Gerardo Sumano [02:42:53] Like, I. I think told us that it's not. Right.

clip [02:42:57] What.

John Dehlin [02:42:57] What did he say?

Gerardo Sumano [02:42:58] Well, like, he's talked with. About the muskets. He's like, we're willing to lose accreditation. We're willing to lose everything. Yeah, we're pretty much willing to close the university because our mission is, you know, to have faithful members and. And commit to our teachings, our doctrines, and. And not sway from them.

John Dehlin [02:43:21] Yeah, yeah. And my perception is, is that BYU is great at churning out lawyers, doctors, dentists, orthodontists, computer scientists, businessmen. Right. Accountants. And then. And Then women who get teaching degrees that then don't use them because they get married and have lots of babies like and so but, but if you think about English, you know, English literature, you know, social sciences, psychologists, sociologists, historians. I don't even think BYU offers a graduate degree in history anymore. Like it's basically gutted. Any graduate program that would lead anyone to have any meaningful questions or to learn about the Church's true history or to question its social justice positions.

John Dehlin [02:44:20] It's just like gutted all of that. And then it beefs up any degree that's going to make someone become super wealthy so that they pay a crap ton of tithing to the church. Now that may seem really cynical, but that's my observation.

John Dehlin [02:44:35] The BYU is about becoming wealthy or getting married young because the church knows that if you marry a Mormon young and have babies really quickly, you're more likely to stay in the church and pay tithing and stay committed. If you go to a non BYU university, don't get married quick, don't marry a Mormon and don't have babies quickly, they lose you.

Guest 3 [02:45:03] Yeah. And critical think, why does the church

Gerardo Sumano [02:45:07] doesn't have like universities in other countries? Countries, you know, why is it only in, in very highly Mormon populated? Because like I, I, my understanding is Seven Day Adventists have universities all over the world.

John Dehlin [02:45:21] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:45:22] But they say they will because of pathways.

John Dehlin [02:45:25] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:45:26] That's another, that's another way for them to say it's global.

John Dehlin [02:45:30] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:45:30] Like globally.

John Dehlin [02:45:31] Yeah. I don't know. Why do you ask that herder?

Gerardo Sumano [02:45:34] Well it just makes me wonder like I, I mean I think it reinforces the point that the really the real purpose of this universities are to in highly concentrated Mormon populations to keep the mo like the most people they can keep inside the church.

John Dehlin [02:45:53] Yeah. And to keep them from learning things. That's gonna it's it be and let's just face it, a big part of BYU is, is religious indoctrination.

Radio Free Mormon [02:46:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:01] You have to take like almost a year of religious, of non transferable religious courses.

Guest 3 [02:46:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:08] Right. So there's a huge indoctrination that you pay for that you pay for. Yeah, yeah. You pay for the church to indoctrinate indoctrinate you more and to teach you that evolution's evil and the earth is 7,000 years old. Etc. I that's not true. But anyway I, I, yeah him talking about education is maybe a little bit triggering for me.

Radio Free Mormon [02:46:30] Just think if the church were building colleges at the rate they're building temples.

John Dehlin [02:46:35] Oh my gosh, lowcost colleges that, that gave real secular, high quality educations.

Guest 3 [02:46:44] That would be beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:46:46] That could change the world. Yeah, right.

Guest 3 [02:46:48] Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:49] If the world was taught to critically think, like basic illogical fallacies and critical thinking skills. What if Pathways was a, was a logical fallacies critical thinking curriculum?

Guest 2 [02:47:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:03] What would that be?

Guest 3 [02:47:06] That wouldn't be good for them?

Radio Free Mormon [02:47:07] Well, that would be like the wicked witch of the west teaching people how to throw buckets of water.

Guest 3 [02:47:12] Right. Yeah, I don't think that would be. Work out well for them.

John Dehlin [02:47:16] To share. To share. Fam.

Guest 3 [02:47:18] That was brilliant.

John Dehlin [02:47:19] That, that deserves applause. Little give RFM applause.

clip [02:47:22] That was.

John Dehlin [02:47:23] That was brilliant.

Guest 2 [02:47:24] That was good.

John Dehlin [02:47:25] Rfm. Okay. All right, so that's education. We're, we're, we're rounding the bend here now. It's genealogy.

Genealogy, Motivations, and the Inside-Out Framework

Radio Free Mormon [02:47:34] Can I just say, I love that freeze frame that you keep coming back to of Elder Bednar. That's my favorite. Can you put it up there on the screen for a second? Because this is my favorite part where he does his lizard on a hot rock impression. He's got that down

John Dehlin [02:47:51] lizard on a hot rock.

Radio Free Mormon [02:47:52] You can almost see him flicking his tongue out.

John Dehlin [02:47:55] I love it. I'm going to make an executive decision and we're going to skip. We're going to skip this part about genealogy. Just suffice it to say.

clip [02:48:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:06] That he talks about genealogy and how awesome we are with genealogy and church history without ever mentioning baptisms for the dead, endowments for the dead, marriage for the dead, and all the main reasons why the church actually does genealogy. He just totally neglects to mention it. And, and so, yeah, that's all I'm going to say there. And then he has a summary about why we do this. I'm going to go ahead and play this now. This is Elder Bednar summarizing his talk and talking about basically why the church exists. So let's, let's hear that part

▶ Video Clip 11

Video Clip 11 [02:48:42] today.

Video Clip 11 [02:48:42] I have tried to describe a few of the things we cherish and strive to do as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I want to address one additional question that you may have. Why do the members of your church do all these things?

Video Clip 11 [02:49:01] Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is far more than passive belief or ascent. Faith in the Savior is a principle of action and of power. Faith is evident in our priorities and in how we live as we learn and live according to the teachings of Jesus.

Video Clip 11 [02:49:24] We are blessed with capacity, power and strength beyond our own. Our hearts are changed. We change from the inside out, and we become new creatures in Christ. To be clear, we do not believe our works save us. Far from it.

Video Clip 11 [02:49:46] Only the grace of Jesus Christ can enable us to overcome the many negative influences of the world in which we live. But our faith does actuate the spiritual responsibility to work, bless, and serve. We do not seek blessings for ourselves. Rather, the blessings we receive enable us to serve other people more efficaciously.

John Dehlin [02:50:15] Wow, there's a lot there, Gerardo. I know. Something about that really struck you hard. Do you want to start?

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:20] Yeah. The works don't save, save us. I think that's Mormonism has been fighting that concept for, like, a hundred years. You know, Bruss or my Conkey saying, like, those Christians that say that works don't save, they're, like, full of it.

John Dehlin [02:50:37] That we're saved by grace alone.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:38] Yeah, yeah. That we need, like, basically saying that we need the works. I think that. I mean, I taught that on my mission. We need the works. It's in.

John Dehlin [02:50:47] In James, faith without works is dead.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:50] Right?

John Dehlin [02:50:50] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:50] Right?

John Dehlin [02:50:51] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:52] So this seems like a little bit of contradiction with what I taught, what I've heard, what I believed as a Mormon. I believe that it was both grace and works. He's saying works don't save all. He said only the grace of Jesus saves. Never heard that before. And in Mormonism, you agree with that, Jen?

Guest 3 [02:51:12] Yeah. And that's what I've heard in a few Mormon stories, interviews of people of different faiths and their transition. When they speak about Mormonism, they say that that's why they say we're not Christian, is because we believe that we have to do works to be saved. And the other Christian religions believe that grace only saves. And I've never heard that either.

Radio Free Mormon [02:51:38] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:51:39] Book of Mormon says we're saved by grace only after all we can do.

John Dehlin [02:51:45] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And if you think about it, if you. If you masturbate and look at porn at Mormonism, you're screwed. If you don't get baptized as a Mormon, you're screwed. If you don't go to the temple and do your temple ordinances, you're screwed. If you don't get temple married, you're screwed. If you don't pay your tithing, you're screwed. If you don't read your scriptures, your scriptures and pray, you're screwed. Like, there are a gazillion ways in Mormonism where if you don't do the right works and be obedient and not just be obedient. What's the first law of Heaven and Mormon Mormonism?

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:14] Obedience, Jen.

Guest 3 [02:52:16] Obedience.

John Dehlin [02:52:16] Obedience. Is the first law of heaven in Mormonism. Right. And there's just a gazillion ways where if you don't obey and follow the brethren and do all the things up until the very end, you're screwed. So for like, this is the most works, works based Christian church I've ever heard of. Am I wrong?

Gerardo Sumano [02:52:37] I think we're up there with the Jehovah Witness, but yeah, yeah, that's true.

John Dehlin [02:52:41] Yeah. So rfm, do you want to talk about that? The, the, the Grayson works question really quick.

Radio Free Mormon [02:52:47] I'm sorry, you caught me texting.

John Dehlin [02:52:48] That's good.

Radio Free Mormon [02:52:49] What were we discussing? No, seriously though, this is another example. This is the continuation of the theme that we talked about earlier where the presentation is that this is a charismatic kind of born again, grace filled church that works from the inside out, remember?

John Dehlin [02:53:09] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:53:09] And we're not like the most legalistic religion in the history of the world.

John Dehlin [02:53:17] It's all inside out, baby. It's all inside out. All right, any other reactions? Like, I. I'll just say for me, he's just trying to say it's all about Jesus and we're all just trying to help people be like Jesus. We're just trying to be like Jesus and we get all these blessings, but Mormon don't. Mormon don't do what they do for blessings. Oh, they do what they do to bless other people. Why'd you react that way?

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:44] Well, the prosperity. Prosperity gospel.

clip [02:53:47] Right?

John Dehlin [02:53:47] What do you mean?

Gerardo Sumano [02:53:49] It's a very, very common teaching in Mormonism that the more you're obedient, the more blessings you're going to receive. So therefore, if you want blessings, you need to obey the law that that blessing is attached to. I mean, it's even Doctrine and Covenant.

John Dehlin [02:54:05] Yeah. Yeah. And even there's a point where like someone asks Bednar someone else. Like, I think it's in the Q A. It's like, are you ever gonna like, not make super poor people tithing?

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:16] Right?

John Dehlin [02:54:17] And he's like, no, we don't want to deprive them of the blessings.

Guest 2 [02:54:19] Right?

John Dehlin [02:54:20] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:21] Isn't that what he's saying?

Gerardo Sumano [02:54:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:22] Oh, yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:54:23] He says, we don't. We don't need your money, but you need the blessings. It's like when Loki says to Thor in the first Avengers movie, are you ever not going to fall for that?

John Dehlin [02:54:34] Yeah. Yeah. So that's. That's weird. All right, so. So this, this for Jonathan Streeter, who we love thoughts on things and stuff. He. He felt like there's a real. That this was One of the most shocking parts of the interview for him. It's where the church wants to really emphasize that they're not primarily a humanitarian organization. So let's hear that clip really quick.

Is the Church Primarily a Humanitarian Organization

clip [02:55:03] I have highlighted many aspects of our humanitarian outreach efforts around the world. Please remember, however, that we are not primarily a humanitarian organization. We are the church of Jesus Christ, reestablished or restored upon the earth in the latter days in preparation for the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. We do all of these things because as his disciples, we love him and want to follow his example in our lives.

John Dehlin [02:55:37] Jen, why are you shaking your head?

Guest 3 [02:55:40] Because you should be a prime. The primary humanitarian organization. That's what you should be like.

John Dehlin [02:55:50] I think that's what Jonathan Streeter was saying.

Guest 3 [02:55:52] Yeah. That's your whole calling. Like that's the whole purpose of Christ's church.

John Dehlin [02:55:59] What was Jesus about in your mind? In your mind, what was Jesus about?

Guest 3 [02:56:03] Serving, serving, giving, healing, loving unconditionally.

John Dehlin [02:56:08] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:56:10] Helping people find love and God within themselves.

John Dehlin [02:56:14] And also like clothing the naked. Like what did Jesus say? If you, if you love me. Wasn't there. You know, what was the part in the New Testament like? If what, what does it mean? It's, it's like inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these my brethren, you have done it unto me. What does he mean? It's the poor wayfaring man of grief. It's clothe the naked, heal the sick, feed the poor. Is that not. Am I getting Jesus wrong, Jen?

Guest 3 [02:56:41] No, no, it's a Jesus I found outside of Mormonism.

John Dehlin [02:56:47] Yeah. And instead it's like. No, no, no. Build temples, do a gazillion, works for the dead, get baptized a million times, be a missionary, like pay your tithing, go to byu, get married, have lots of. Of kids. Did Jesus say any of that?

Guest 3 [02:57:04] No, like if you're saying to the world, if you're standing up there at a pulpit, well, a meeting, whatever you have in front of you, saying to the world, we are not primarily a hum. Humanitarian organization. That's. Yeah, that, that's almost the worst part for me to be honest.

John Dehlin [02:57:23] Was it?

Guest 3 [02:57:24] Yeah, that's. Well, the video earlier was kind of bad, but like staying like standing up there and saying that as like the mouth, mouthpiece of God as a special witness of Christ.

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:39] Right?

John Dehlin [02:57:39] Yeah, he's saying, yeah, humanitarian, that's secondary.

Gerardo Sumano [02:57:42] Who said like sell everything you have and you know.

Guest 3 [02:57:45] Yeah, that's like Jesus in the throat, like overflow, throwing the tables, you know what I mean? Of the temple you know, I don't know. I think. I don't know. I. It's just sad to me.

John Dehlin [02:57:58] Rfm, are you chapped or is your hide chapped about that point? Randy probably wouldn't love that. Our friend Randy.

Radio Free Mormon [02:58:05] No, I think my. My height is a little thick where that's concerned. But it did occur to me that really, he's being transparent at this point, maybe more transparent than he intends to be, because we just had this as discussion about what English class in Japan and Pathways. And I think what he just told us is that the secondary purpose of the church that, I mean, that's. That's the humanitarian aid. The primary purpose of the church is to preach the gospel and get members to join to prepare the world for Jesus's second coming. So if that's correct and he's just told us it is, then what is the point of the humanitarian effort?

Gerardo Sumano [02:58:45] Oh, because they love Jesus.

Radio Free Mormon [02:58:47] No, it's to fulfill the first, the primary purpose that they have, which is to get people to join the church. It's all what we know it is from having been members of the church forever. Anytime you do something good for your neighbor, it's to try and get them to join the church. I mean, isn't that true?

Radio Free Mormon [02:59:06] It was for me. And that's the way it was presented, and that's the way I lived. And that's why frequently when you sick the missionaries, you finally break down and you agree to let the missionaries go and see your neighbors.

Radio Free Mormon [02:59:18] Right. And then nothing happens. So, I don't know, you're just not really friends anymore. Did that ever happen to anybody other than me? Non members or projects, and you're trying to get them to join the church, and it finally comes to an end, they say, thanks, but no thanks. Well, you know, you got to go find somebody else. Maybe you'll have better luck. So you got to drop these guys like a hot potential potato.

Gerardo Sumano [02:59:39] Right?

John Dehlin [02:59:39] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [02:59:40] But I do think that Elder Bednar here has given away the game and said that any humanitarian work that the church does has the ulterior motive of trying to get people to join the church. And I think that's true, and that's

John Dehlin [02:59:52] borne out by Gerardo's slide. They only started doing humanitarian aid when. When they were embarrassed and shamed into doing it. Meaningful, substantive humanitarian aid.

Radio Free Mormon [03:00:03] Yes. If that slide is an approximation of reality.

John Dehlin [03:00:08] Well, it's based on their own public statements.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:10] Yeah, but he still doubts that. 900. 900.

Radio Free Mormon [03:00:14] I'm having trouble doubting my doubts on that slide.

Gerardo Sumano [03:00:19] Yeah.

Closing Calls, Final Reactions, and Wrap-Up

John Dehlin [03:00:19] All right. Well, let's, let's go ahead and do the last little clip here and then, and then we will take a couple calls and be done for today. And then we'll come back for part two later because there's so much here. This is. He summarizes. If it's not about humanitarianism, this is what it's about.

clip [03:00:38] I conclude by returning to where I began. The basic purpose of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is to help people learn about the nature and attributes of God, to love God, to become disciples of his son, Jesus Christ, and to love and serve our brothers and sisters. We believe God can change our hearts and make more out of us from the inside out than we can ever make of ourselves. And we also believe that change many times is required from the outside in. We strive to do both. Thank you for this chance to speak with you today.

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:30] Did he ended with a chiasmus.

John Dehlin [03:01:35] So I've got, I've got to run in my.

clip [03:01:38] I have this microphone so you can stay at the podium.

John Dehlin [03:01:40] I've got to run in like five minutes. And we've got a couple people who've been waiting this whole time to talk. Gerardo, ten second response. Anything you wanted to say about the final close?

Gerardo Sumano [03:01:50] No, I think RFM already said it.

John Dehlin [03:01:52] Okay. Jen, anything? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like, which is it? Is it. Is it to be disciples of Jesus? What does that mean? If it doesn't mean to be humanitarian? Am I. Is that right?

Guest 3 [03:02:06] Right.

John Dehlin [03:02:07] Like, what does that mean? Love and serve others. So it's weird.

Radio Free Mormon [03:02:11] It also feeds into the reality that all love in the LDS Church is conditional.

John Dehlin [03:02:18] How so? How so? Arfm?

Radio Free Mormon [03:02:19] Well, there's always strings attached to any humanitarian efforts. It's an ulterior motive to get people to join the church. Therefore, any love is conditional.

John Dehlin [03:02:27] Yeah. All right. Well, we're, we've had a few people have been waiting a super long time. Bella, you've been waiting a super long time. Maybe you weren't even expecting. Turn on your. Unmute your microphone and Bella, did you have a quick comment you wanted to share with us?

Guest [03:02:43] We.

John Dehlin [03:02:43] Thanks for.

Guest 2 [03:02:45] Wow. Where to start? There's so much I, I just really wanted to touch on the, on the, the money and it comes to mind the widow's might and the, the church gives so much. They tell others what they give, but they don't tell them what they have. So honestly, if people knew what they have, there was nothing. And, and then I would like to just tell really quick that the church doesn't really.

Guest 2 [03:03:19] It's not. It's not to take you to Jesus. Most people, or some people, the missionaries go and they. They. They teach Christians, but they teach them about Joseph Smith. They teach them about the. The prophet, the apostles, tithing. Don't drink coffee. From now on, you can't drink alcohol and the. The whole structure of the church, and you need to agree to all that. You're not learning about Jesus. They already know about Jesus. And the faith without works is dead. I mean, there was so much that talk that I was just like, it's. It's. It's ridiculous. And the people that been in, inside the Mormon Church know what it.

Guest 2 [03:04:09] It really is. I. I always. I was always offended when they said that they were not Christians. And I would defend myself saying, yes, we are Christians, but that I think it was just because me, in my heart, I always loved Jesus. But honestly, at church, that's not what you learn. You learn about Joseph Smith and you don't even learn the real stories about Joseph Smith. He's just learned the good stuff about Joseph Smith. So honestly, I don't even know what the purpose of the church is.

John Dehlin [03:04:41] Beautiful. Bella. Bella, where are you joining us from?

Guest 2 [03:04:45] My bunker in Tennessee.

John Dehlin [03:04:48] Oh, okay. Well, I want to have you. Where did. Where are you originally from?

Guest 2 [03:04:53] Portugal.

John Dehlin [03:04:54] Okay. I'd love to have you on Mormon Story sometime.

Guest 2 [03:04:57] So serious.

John Dehlin [03:04:58] Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, Email us. Follow up with me and Jen and Gerardo. We want to get you on because I think you'd be a great guest. And we've never interviewed anyone from Portugal.

Guest 2 [03:05:10] No. And I. I do have quite. Quite a story. But, yeah, I would love to.

John Dehlin [03:05:15] Okay, email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com.

Guest 2 [03:05:18] thank you all.

John Dehlin [03:05:19] Thank you so much.

Guest 2 [03:05:22] Love you.

Guest 3 [03:05:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:05:27] Thanks, Bella. All right, the next person that's been waiting a super long, long time is Adrian Bear. And, Adrian, you're walking around, so tell us. Really. You have to unmute yourself, Adrian, really quick. But what. I'll unmute you, Adrian. What would you like to say? Adrian?

clip [03:05:45] Hey, I just am really struck by, like, how emblematic this is of, like, I just keep thinking I'm like, for example, I'm queer and my husband is still believing. Like, I cannot imagine a situation where he would be like, look what president. Look what President Putnar said. This is so awesome. He decided to go in front of this group of people after 20 years, and here he said some awesome things, like, this is not real.

John Dehlin [03:06:19] This is just.

clip [03:06:20] This is just like, fluff. Nothing. Like, there's no. I don't see any situation where these men are willing are able to change anything by statements like this, you know.

John Dehlin [03:06:34] Well, Adrian, thank you. So you're not super impressed? Not super impressed with this talk?

clip [03:06:39] It's, it's just, it's just, it's not, Mommy, mommy, mommy. It's just, it's just exactly what you would expect. And it's like power does not relinquish power. He's not going to say anything other than what he's saying. He can't say anything because the reality is if he says anything, it all unravels.

John Dehlin [03:07:04] That's powerful. Adrian, thank you so much for sharing. I'd love to hear more from, from you. So thanks for waiting and Adrian, let's have you back on. Okay, Have a good one.

Radio Free Mormon [03:07:16] Bye.

John Dehlin [03:07:16] All right, thanks, Adrian. All right, this is going to be the last call we take. Will you get, you get the final call in comment. What would you like to share and make sure we unmute you? Okay, Go ahead, Will.

Guest [03:07:27] Thank you. Can you hear me okay?

John Dehlin [03:07:29] Yeah, we hear you.

clip [03:07:29] Great.

Guest [03:07:30] Awesome. I just want to comment on the 900 million. The Mid Widow's might report. They kind of dove into that to take a look and see what was really happening there. And it appears that the church has now added the fast offerings into their humanitarian aid budget. If you go to page 7 of the of the church's report, right at the very top, it says that the 906 million, number one thing, fast offering assistance number two, bishop orders for goods. So this is the bulk of that money is just the fast offerings that the members are paying that are staying inside the church.

John Dehlin [03:08:08] It looks like that was RFM's point is that it's basically money. Money we're giving ourselves.

Gerardo Sumano [03:08:14] Yeah, but that, but that was before too. So like it's not new. Like in the 40 million, I'm pretty sure I'm almost 100 sure they were still counting fast offering.

John Dehlin [03:08:23] So it's funny, fuzzy math, basically.

Guest [03:08:25] A little math there. So I just came out of the bishop brick in our little ward, you know, we would average about $70,000 a year in fast offerings. Times that by your 31,000. But obviously outside the United States, you're not going to get the same. But that comes up to $2.5 billion. So honestly, I think that 800,000 to 850,000 or sorry, 8 million is really, is just a fast offering money. And they've decided to put that money and show it as humanitarian aid. But really when you're filling out your tithing slip, remember there's Tithing. There's fast offerings, then there's humanitarian aid. They've always been separate. They just merged fast offerings and humanitarian aid to make it look like it's a big number they're delivering, but it's all staying in house. Next you'll bump tithing in there.

Gerardo Sumano [03:09:13] I did want to say that while the fast offerings might not be as high in developing countries like Mexico, the, the amount of money that bishops are advised to give is a lot less. So while you're here, cases here in the US that church that bishops are gonna help paying rent or mortgages of members. That would never, ever, ever happen in Mexico. In Mexico, at most you'll get, you know, like, like they'll go and buy you groceries for like, so you can live for like a month. And that's, that's the most they'll be willing to give. I know that for a fact. My, my dad's been on stake presidencies and working on area stuff too, regarding this stuff. So, yeah, kind of interesting.

John Dehlin [03:10:08] That's fascinating. Do you mind sending us a link to that report because we would like to share it in the show Notes.

Guest [03:10:13] Yeah, it's on the church, but I'm happy to send it over to you.

John Dehlin [03:10:18] That's, that's brilliant. Will, Any, Any response to Will RFM other than I told you so. You're muted RFM other than I told you so?

Radio Free Mormon [03:10:27] No, just that I'm going to catch bloody hell from the guy who actually did the widow's might report because I know him and I didn't think of it myself. I'm so glad that Will brought that up. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:10:41] Thank you, Will. Oh, and actually I just realized I'm, I, I don't have to run immediately. So if there's any other callers who really quickly. If you want to go to the description of YouTube or Facebook, we put a link at the bottom where you can join the call. We, we would welcome you. So, Bill, you just recently, you say recently you were in a bishopric. Is there anything you want to share about, about how you're doing? William?

Guest [03:11:07] It's, it's, you know, it was a wonderful experience and I just have further light knowledge now. One other point with Bednar's talk, he mentioned hundreds of millions of dollars that are going to the church schools and the good that that is doing. And Heraldo brought up the, you know, couple hundred that they're getting for a couple hundred million they're getting from the government. But really a lot of that money is tithing money coming from Other countries.

Guest [03:11:34] So we see that in the reports where the countries where the church has to report their charitable contributions. You see that in Canada and Australia, where they are publicly, you can see that the Church is taking the tithing money out of those countries and actually shipping them to the BYU schools to fund the schools. So it's kind of ironic that, again, talking about great money and it is. It's wonderful money going to education, but let's just be honest, it's other members money from other countries that is paying for our colleges here in the U.S. yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:12] Yeah. I think Destiny say somewhere in that presentation that the Church gives over a billion dollars a year to the BYU's. Like, I. I thought that's what I understood. Yeah, maybe I understood. William, you're brilliant. Let's have you back on Mormon stories, too. What do you think? What do you say?

Guest [03:12:27] Someday. Someday.

John Dehlin [03:12:29] All right, well, thanks for calling in. You really made an important contribution.

Guest [03:12:33] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:12:33] Thank you. Take care. All right. So I. I guess so. We want to make sure listeners, viewers know this is just half of our review. We still have the Q and A to go. And the Q and A was the one that we wanted to focus on because it's the most interesting.

John Dehlin [03:12:53] So we will be having a part two as soon as we schedule it. We're going to do our best to make it worth RFM's while to come back. But, but, but we'll have our panel back. And don't go anywhere. Don't go away, because part two is going to be amazing. But let's go ahead and do a close. I mean, I think we've done a. I'm really proud of today's episode. Gerardo, couldn't have done it without you. Jen, it's so lovely to have you here. You make really important contributions as well. And of course, rfm, you're a freaking legend. But let's just have closing statements. So, Gerardo, do you have a closing statement you want to make? And then we'll do Jen. And then we'll do RFM closing statements.

Gerardo Sumano [03:13:35] Yeah, I think there's positives. You know, we. We see the church moving in and a positive direction as far as, like, how much they're willing to help. I think that's great. I think also this kind of stuff that we're doing right now, this kind of panels are. Is major contributor with. For the church. Church's transparency and willingness to help out more. So, yeah, I think these panels are important.

John Dehlin [03:14:08] All right.

Gerardo Sumano [03:14:09] Glad everyone tuned in.

John Dehlin [03:14:11] All right. Thanks, Gerardo. We couldn't do it without you.

Gerardo Sumano [03:14:13] Thanks.

John Dehlin [03:14:14] All right, Jen. Jen, closing. Closing comments.

Guest 3 [03:14:19] No, just thanks to Gerardo for putting this all together. And to the church, be more like Jesus.

John Dehlin [03:14:28] Meaning

Guest 3 [03:14:31] maybe switch that sentence that you said at the end there. And be primarily a human humanitarian organization.

John Dehlin [03:14:42] First.

clip [03:14:43] Yeah.

Guest 3 [03:14:43] First.

clip [03:14:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:44] And be honest.

clip [03:14:46] Be.

Guest 3 [03:14:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:47] You taught us what absolute honesty was. You taught us what complete, the full truth. Complete honesty was. Maybe show that a little. Is that fair?

Guest 3 [03:14:58] Yeah. In all areas. Historically in every. Every area.

John Dehlin [03:15:02] Honest in all your dealings with your fellow men. Men and women and non binary people.

Guest 3 [03:15:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:09] Thanks, Jen. All right, rfm closing statements. Oh, and unmute yourself, my good brother.

Radio Free Mormon [03:15:22] If you only knew the sounds that are going on over here, you'd be glad I did mute myself. But seriously, folks, you remember that scene and Thor, I think it's from the dark world where he's so pained at Loki because they're brothers and Loki's always, you know, screwing him over and stabbing him in the back, regardless of what Loki says. And there's this wonderful scene where Thor looks at him and just pain. He says, I wish I could trust you. That's how I feel about Elder Bednar. And I think the second person who called in was getting to that point too, and talking about questioning his sincerity in what he says. Because all he's going to say is what he's going to say. He's not going to say the truth. But I will say this to you, Elder Bednar, I really do wish I could trust you.

John Dehlin [03:16:11] Beautiful. All right, well, rfm, we love you. Please go right now to Ready for your Mormon website. Ready for your Mormon mormon.com or communism live or oh, readyfreemormon.org yes, for all

Radio Free Mormon [03:16:27] those hundreds and thousands of people who are stampeding over there right now, I want to make sure they get to the right website.

John Dehlin [03:16:33] Well, let's put it in the. In the comments. Let's put it in the comments. It's radiofreemormon.org It's MormonismLive. What?

Radio Free Mormon [03:16:42] No, I don't even pay attention to that.

John Dehlin [03:16:44] But also check out Mormonism Live every

Radio Free Mormon [03:16:46] Let me check it out while you're talking.

John Dehlin [03:16:49] Every Wednesday, Bill's gonna kill me every Wednesday at 6:20pm on YouTube. You can.

Radio Free Mormon [03:16:55] Yeah, it's on YouTube. Mormonismlive.org as well.

John Dehlin [03:16:58] Okay. And you. But you can also check in live to Mormonism Live with Bill Real and radio Free Mormon and get an amazing weekly show about all things Mormon. And you're a legend, rfm. So we're really Honored that you would grace us with your presence and that you would mute yourself when it was appropriate.

clip [03:17:19] Yes.

Radio Free Mormon [03:17:19] Earlier on I didn't have myself muted, but I'm blaming that one on Gerardo.

John Dehlin [03:17:25] All right, Gerardo, thanks. Thanks, rfm. It's great to have you. We love you.

clip [03:17:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:17:29] All right. And thanks everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Do not forget to tune into part two where we actually do the interesting part of this interview which is the Q A between the reports Porter and David Bednar. David A. Bednar. It's going to be great. So it's going to come next. But thanks for your support. If you value Gerardo, if you value Jen, if you value all the work that we do behind the scenes, Nemo, etc, the lights, the cameras, the broadband running of the non profit. If you value this programming, please become a monthly supporter.

John Dehlin [03:18:05] You can super chat right now. You can Click on the dollar signs on your YouTube chat or the stars feature on Facebook and you can donate to us that way. But we really appreciate if you become a monthly donor. Go to mormonstories.org Click on the Donate button. Your donations keep us alive and you can feel good that you're contributing instead of contributing to an organization that's just enriching itself and not trying to necessarily spend its wealth doing good. We give you our commitment that every dollar you donate to the Open Stories foundation of Mormon Stories, we're gonna, we're gonna funnel right back into our missions which are to provide informed consent to Mormon and non Mormon across the world so people know the truth about the church.

John Dehlin [03:18:55] Whether they want to join it or not is up to them. And to support people in faith crisis, both Mormon and outside of Mormonism, we have so half of our view, YouTube, YouTube viewership has never been Mormon. So you know you can help people in faith crisis and you can help people who are trying to heal and grow after being in a high demand religion, Mormonism or otherwise. That's where your donations go. We feel like it's a worthy cause. Please support us and we'll keep doing this for as long as as you support us. So thanks everyone. Thanks for tuning in live.

John Dehlin [03:19:31] We love you. Be good to each other, be kind to each other and we'll see you all again very soon on another another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.