Welcome and Introduction to the Devil Cast

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast, Mormon expression edition. I am. You're one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It's February 13, 2024. We are one day away from Valentine's Day, although I have no idea when this is going to air, but we are super excited to have back. Joining us as always for another Mormon expression episode, the doctor, John Larsen. Hey, John.

John Larsen [00:00:26] Hey, no doctor there. Hey, John, good to talk to you again on this Fat Tuesday. Tomorrow's Ash Wednesday, so I guess you're not celebrating.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Is it Easter? I don't even know what these holidays mean.

John Larsen [00:00:41] Fat Tuesday, Mardi Gras, the last day before Lent. The first day of Lent is Ash Wednesday, which represents the 40 days before Easter, basically before two facts that no

John Dehlin [00:00:54] Mormons in the world know.

John Larsen [00:00:59] There was a case, it wasn't that many years ago in Utah where kid came to school with the ash on, you know, the ash cross on his forehead, and the teacher rubbed it off and when the kid tried to explain what it was, she didn't believe him. She was a Mormon woman. And it blew up. So don't rub the ash off the kids foreheads, my Mormon friends.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] Yeah. The first time I remember ever even learning about the ash on the forehead was when I lived in Chicago and there were a ton of Catholics and I would see them on Ash Wednesday, but it's a thing. Thanks for educating us. And we have with us Carah Burrell. Happy birthday. Nuance. Ho.

Carah Burrell [00:01:43] Thanks. Thanks, boys. You know, part of my religion is this hat, so it's similar to the Joseph Smith white hat over here.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:01:53] But this one's from Satan, so.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] Okay. And what is. What is used to see to. To translate what is put in the hat? To translate in Satan's hat.

Carah Burrell [00:02:03] Putting on the boa.

John Larsen [00:02:05] It's reminding me of. Of Clockwork Orange. A little bit of ultra violence later tonight.

Carah Burrell [00:02:11] That's what you say.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] Little Stanley Kubrick. Action.

Carah Burrell [00:02:14] Well, I heard you were talking about Satan today. So as his number one deputy, I thought that I would give the viewers a little look into the gift that he got me for Valentine's as his number one favorite girl. So.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] Well, happy birthday and happy Valentine's Day, John and Carah. Carah, how old are you?

Carah Burrell [00:02:34] Yes, that's inappropriate.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] Oh, sorry.

Carah Burrell [00:02:39] I'm 35.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] I think you make 39 look really, really good.

John Larsen [00:02:45] Oh, John's going for it early.

Carah Burrell [00:02:47] I'd like a race.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] John Larsen, what do we got for today?

John Larsen [00:02:53] Well, we're. We're doing the. The follow up to our first Devil Cast, which we did in the fall. In the interim, we've had lots of, lots of things happen and, and my life is busy. And here we are to do the follow up. The first one we did kind of the, what did I call it? The ancient Devil. And today we're going to follow up with what I call the historic devil. We're going to talk about the devil in Mormon theology.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] I love it. And I'll just remind everyone that John Larsen is the former host of Mormon Expression Podcast. He's got, I don't know, 300 episodes of amazing content that you can find under the Mormon Expression label wherever you get your audio podcasts. And we have been honored to have him joining us almost monthly on Mormon Stories and. All right, John, take it away. Where do we begin?

John Larsen [00:03:51] All right, well, let's frame the question now. And again. I want to acknowledge that this topic is uncomfortable for some people. And I want you, dear listener, to sit with that. I want you to sit with that feeling and ask yourself, why? What's going on here?

John Larsen [00:04:08] There's a couple of kind of philosophical conundrums or philosophical thoughts that I think it's worth laying out in the beginning. We can return to them at the end. The first is the problem of evil, which is basically the question of why does evil exist at all? If you have an omnipotent, omniscient God, and you know God can do anything, why would he create a universe that has evil in it?

John Larsen [00:04:33] Because either he can't stop evil, which means he's not omnipotent, or he can, he chooses not to, which opens another can of worms. But that's a dilemma that theologians and philosophers have been struggling with for a long time. So tonight we're going to look at what the Book of Mormon in particular has to say about this problem.

John Larsen [00:04:51] And the other problem I want to put in your minds as we talk here is the problem of free will, which is, can human beings even act for themselves? What is a human being's responsibility? And you know, what does, what does that mean in the cosmic scheme of thing, especially when we talk about the Devil doing his tempting and his dirty works? What does that mean for free will? So I want to kind of pose those two philosophical conundrums up front and see again how Mormonism deals with these.

John Larsen [00:05:26] And then the other question, this is like a quiz you're gonna get at the end. I'm telling you what, what, what questions are coming up.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] We're taking notes.

John Larsen [00:05:33] I want to ask the question, what superpowers does the devil have and why. So does the devil have any superpowers? And. And why does he have those? So those are the three questions I want to put up in the intro. Any thoughts on those? You guys?

Carah Burrell [00:05:52] I mean, everything in Mormonism to me really comes down to a pull between following the spirit, following Christ, and this pull between Satan having so much power. Like you mentioned, superpowers to control the children of men and stuff. So I'm looking forward to this discussion because I think so many post Mormons still have to deal with where do we get our emotions from and all that kind of stuff. Like it's stuff that it still permeates throughout our minds of who's controlling my thoughts, Free will. These are all big discussions, even for post Mormons to navigate.

John Larsen [00:06:25] Yeah, that's a great observation. And I've witnessed that people almost have to process the devil and sin and God on two different planes. Like, you think they're just reflections of one another, but they're not. So when people are processing out of religion, trying to decide what they believe, they. It's like two tracks that have to be independently reviewed.

Carah Burrell [00:06:47] Yeah. When you're so used to like pathologizing negative emotions and so many things throughout your life, it's difficult to take that entire view off of things. So let's get into it.

Brief History: Satan from Old Testament to New Testament

John Larsen [00:06:59] All right, for sure. Okay, so let's go back and do a brief history as. As we are want to do sometimes. In 334 BC, the young man Alexander had taken the united Greek empires and he begins to sweep eastward.

John Larsen [00:07:18] And Alexander conquers Jerusalem in 332 BC and introduces what is known as Hellenism or the Hellenic era throughout Palestine at 64 BC. So about close to 300 years later, Rome, the Roman Empire is on the rise under Octavius. And Rome conquers Judea, Palestine in 64 BC. So we're talking, you know, a couple, three, four generations before the birth of Christ.

John Larsen [00:07:54] So by the time that the New Testament is written, Hellenism has really supplanted everything. Greek has replaced Aramaic for trade and education. So if you're going to school, you're in the marketplace, you're going to be speaking Greek. It's the legal language.

John Larsen [00:08:12] And so most educated Jews at the time would speak Greek. And Aramaic was already becoming something that is secondary. Jesus Christ, being kind of a poor carpenter, probably would have spoken Aramaic, but if he was educated in a synagogue or whatever, then he would have known some Greek at least. But you know, it's telling that the entire New Testament was written in Greek, not in Aramaic, non Hebrew, not in Latin. Greek was the language of the time.

John Larsen [00:08:47] So during those 300 years, obviously there was a lot of Greek influence in thought, in legal jurisprudence, in culture, in philosophy. And just like happens with human beings, you get emerging of cultures and some things change, some things change.

John Larsen [00:09:09] But one of the things that did change is between the Old Testament time that we went through in the last episode and New Testament is by the time the New Testament is written, the devil is a real character who's showing up. We talked about how in the Old Testament he's kind of a shady character, it's more of a title. A lot of the passages can be interpreted in different ways to not have a satanic sort of figure. So in Greek the word is satanus. S a t a n s would be the Anglicized version of that. And that appears 38 times in the Greek New Testament.

John Larsen [00:09:52] So there's 38 references to Satan. And that satanus is a transliteration from Aramaic, from Hebrew. So you've got, you've got this word that has a linguistic tale going from Hebrew and into Aramaic. And then they transliterated. That means they just took it and then wrote it in Greek. So they weren't using the Greek term at this time. By the time the New Testament is written, which is probably sometime after the death of Christ, probably 100 years later or so, the implication is that the devil rules over the earth.

John Larsen [00:10:33] That's already kind of been baked into the New Testament. However, most of the lore that you are aware of, of the devil is not biblical. You know, like him having horns or being red or having a forked tail or all these kind of things about him. Those all came, came later, oftentimes much, much later.

Hell, Sheol, and the Afterlife in Scripture

John Larsen [00:10:57] So there's two terms we need to talk about. One of these I kind of mixed up last time. First of all, SH h e o l is a word in Hebrew that basically means the grave. And it is related to the, the underworld of the Babylonians and for Greeks, Hades. So for the Babylonians and for the Greeks

John Dehlin [00:11:25] the.

John Larsen [00:11:26] And by the way, Hades, um, or, or Pluto, um, is a term meaning the rich one, interestingly enough. So, yeah, go ahead, John.

John Dehlin [00:11:35] No, no, no, that's good. I was just laughing.

John Larsen [00:11:39] So you have these surrounding cultures, including the Greeks, who have this idea that after one passes away, after one dies, one enters a shadow world. And that's what Hades was, an underworld. And they don't really talk about it very much. It is not a punishing place. Even though you'll find references to Hell in Greek and Latin, even referring the Greek philosophers. But it's not sort of the modern idea of hell that we have. It's just the place that the dead go for the Hebrews before that, and still to this day, for a lot of them, there is no concept of an afterlife at all.

John Larsen [00:12:23] One is here to serve God and to do God's will and live a good life, but it's not for the reward of another life. Okay. Another term that's important from the time is Gehenna or Ge Hinnom or the Valley of Hinnom.

John Larsen [00:12:42] And this is referenced in the Sermon on the Mount. This is a reference to Hell in the Sermon on the Mount. And that's the valley of the trash burning that we talked about before. That was out outside and was oftentimes used as a metaphor for going to a really bad place.

John Larsen [00:13:00] Now, the idea of eternal punishment in Hell was not Catholic doctrine until the Council of Trent, which is about 1550 AD. So let's repeat that. That's important. The idea that people who died would be eternally punished in Hell was not canonized in the Catholic church until 1550. That's like 50 years after Columbus.

John Larsen [00:13:27] Before that, the idea kind of grew and bounced around. I mean, you have a roundabout this time. You have Dante riding the Inferno. So. So. And you have a lot of art, you know, that references burning and sort of punishment. But. But really the idea that everyone who dies will be punished eternally is of a pretty late construction now, now, John

John Dehlin [00:13:49] Larsen, will you be talking about. I am rusty on even the last episode that we did remind us. And for those who didn't watch or listen to the last episode, who were just joining us late, are you going to be talking about the extent to which, when the New Testament refers to this idea of hell, how it describes it? Because what you're saying is that this eternal punishment in Hell clearly can't be in the New Testament. Is that what I'm hearing?

John Larsen [00:14:15] Well, there's no reference to eternal punishment in Hell being in the New Testament. There's sort of reference to these places that I just outlined where wicked people go. And already the idea seeped in from the Greeks of Hades. And, you know, the New Testament is really a strong merging of Greek and Roman philosophy and of course, Hebrew philosophy. And that's why throughout all of European history, you know, people would learn the New Testament and the Old Testament and the Greek and Roman philosophers, they were just always side by side.

Carah Burrell [00:14:56] Right.

John Larsen [00:14:56] Okay, okay. So let's shift gears a little Bit. Let's talk about Mormonism. So there's two points that we really need to make clear. First of all, in Mormonism, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is the one, an only true church. And that's a very important distinction for Mormons, that there are churches and they are true or false, and one of them is true. There is no other baptism. You have to be baptized in the Mormon way or it's illegitimate. And this is the only way to return to God is through Mormonism. And all other churches are at best an imitation and it were something of the devil. Can we all agree that that is Mormon theology?

John Dehlin [00:15:47] I mean, abomination is the word that comes to my mind. Their creeds are an abomination. Like, I think that's in section one of the Doctrine and Covenants.

Carah Burrell [00:15:57] Yeah. And I also like to add that there's a, like a Joseph Smith quote that I always like to go back to about how he says that before you joined this church, you stood on neutral ground between good and evil. And once you joined the church, you did so by the enticings of the Holy Spirit. So if you ever leave the church, you do so by the enticings of Satan. So it's a very clear delineation to me of what the prophet of what we call the restoration said about whether you're in the church or outside the church, that you are either part of Satan or you're part of the spirit of God.

John Larsen [00:16:29] Okay, excellent. So we've established that Mormonism is, is by its, its, its theology, the one and only true church.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] Yeah. Mormons don't like to admit that public facing. Yes, but it's absolutely true because you don't get to, you don't get to heaven without a Mormon baptism. So.

John Larsen [00:16:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:47] Yeah.

Satan and Hell in the Book of Mormon

John Larsen [00:16:48] The next thing we want to establish is the importance of the Book of Mormon. Mormon. The Prophet Mormon, the Prophet Moroni and the Prophet Joseph Smith basically dedicated their entire lives to the preservation of this book. Joseph Smith told us it is the most correct book that has ever been written.

John Larsen [00:17:10] And the provenance of this book is absolutely known. It was never in the hands of bad actors. And it was in fact engraved on plates of gold or some alloy. So the idea of coming and scratching something out ain't gonna happen. It's engraved in metal. It has, we know exactly from year to year who had it, where it was.

John Larsen [00:17:35] And, and, and the whole of the ending of the book in particular is dedicated to the preservation of this book and doing a Hail Mary pass of getting that book. 1400 years into the future, so the boy Joseph Smith could pull it out of the ground. It is the centerpiece of Mormonism. Without the Book of Mormon, there is no Mormonism. There is no difference. There is no way to talk about the one true church.

John Larsen [00:18:05] And yet the Book of Mormon is missing many key elements. For example, there's reference to the Temple, but it makes very clear that the Temple was made after the Temple of Solomon. And we know there's a description of the Temple of Solomon in the Old Testament. And modern Mormon temples do not match the Temple of Solomon at all.

John Larsen [00:18:26] Eternal marriage or the sealing power is not in the Book of Mormon. There is no division of priesthood in the Book of Mormon. There is no concept of governance by the quorum of the 12. There are no kingdoms of glory in the Book of Mormon. The pre existence doesn't exist in the Book of Mormon. Work for the dead does not exist in the Book of Mormon. So we already have this paradox coming out the door that the Book of Mormon is absolutely imperative to establish Mormonism, but Mormonism as it exists, does not exist in the Book of Mormon. Right?

John Dehlin [00:18:56] Absolutely. Yep. That's all. All the Nauvoo stuff is the distinctive Mormon stuff these days.

John Larsen [00:19:02] Okay. So I just wanted to establish that. But it's really super important that you realize that what we're about to go through is an exegesis of the Book of Mormon. And there'll be people who say that Mormons do not believe this. And I am going to shotgun out the references. If somebody wants to later, they can go look every one of them up. I'm not going to bother reading all these scriptures, but we are going to go through exactly what the Book of Mormon teaches about God and. Or, well, about the devil and hell. But first of all, we have to dig apart what the Book of Mormon teaches about free will. Because wouldn't you guys say that free will is an important concept for Mormons? Like the idea that we are choosing and we are agents to choose unto ourselves is really imperative.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] The war of heaven was fought over free agency.

John Larsen [00:19:57] Yeah, yeah. The Mormons always call it free agency. Right. So, first, second, Nephi 2:11 says, first of all, there must be opposition in all things. Now, one is interested in the question that when Jesus Christ presented his plan in that council in heaven, did it include the devil in it? When Jesus got up and introduced his plan, did he call out that there had to be a Lucifer? Because this happened before Lucifer rebelled? So did the plan, as posed by Jesus Christ, include a devil or Not. It's really a very important question, if you think about it. If there has to be opposition in all things, was that built into the plan? Meaning did Jesus Christ and God Elohim intend all the way along from the beginning to have one of their children quote, unquote, rebel and become the devil? Was that part of the plan?

Carah Burrell [00:21:03] Yeah, that's a good question.

John Dehlin [00:21:07] I mean, I'm trying to remember my seminary days and being taught the difference between foreordination and predestination or something like that, that somehow you can still have free will. Even if Heavenly Father knew what the outcome was going to be, the individual agents are somehow still choosing it. I don't know. I remember something like that. It's been 30 or 40 years, but, you know, I don't know. John Larsen, what do you think?

John Larsen [00:21:32] Well, I mean, I. I think I've been doing this for a lot of years, so there's no, like, hiding my opinion. I think this stuff doesn' any sense. I think it's just. It's just baloney.

Carah Burrell [00:21:47] So you're set to fail. Like, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Like.

John Larsen [00:21:52] Yeah, it's. It speaks to the fact that the plan's not real because they had to anticipate things that happened a little bit later. And we're going to get into this in more detail. Don't take my word for it. The Book of Mormon will walk us through this. So that was second Nephi, chapter two, verse 11. Let's skip down five verses to second Nephi, chapter two, Verse 16, which says, wherefore the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Okay, great. Then the next sentence. Wherefore man could not act for himself, save it be that he was enticed by the one or the other, meaning good or evil.

John Larsen [00:22:24] Now wait a minute. Did God give that man should act for himself, or is man completely. And I apologize for using man to refer to humanity. That's what the book does. Or is humankind not able to act unless they were enticed by one or the other? Because if that second clause is true, then a lot of the things we're gonna read here really become a colossal mindfuck, because we're saying that if you just dropped human beings and God stayed in his corner and the devil stayed in his corner, that they could not act for themselves. That's what 2 Nephi chapter 2, verse 16 says.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:23:08] All right. There's a little bit more clarity in Helaman, chapter 14, verse 30. And now remember, remember, my brethren, that whosoever perisheth, perisheth unto himself. And whosoever doth iniquity, doth it unto himself. For behold, ye are free. You're permitted to act for yourselves. For behold, God hath given you a knowledge and he hath made you free.

John Larsen [00:23:27] But Nephi tells us that we don't, we can only act if we're enticed by one or the other. So there's the Book of Mormon on free will. So you get a lot of stuff in scriptures like this, and this is a hallmark of a lot of high demand religions, cults and sort of things is when you scan their scripture, what you'll find is that everything is in the scripture. Like it'll say black is blue and blue is red, and red is blue and red is black, so that you can find whatever you want. And this is a classic example. Out of these three passages I could construct a talk in sacrament meeting that have people shaking their head and talking about how they felt the Spirit that literally says anything about free will.

John Larsen [00:24:12] It's all right here, both that you don't have it and you have it simultaneously. Okay, now let's talk about hell in the Book of Mormon. So we talked about that. Hell is kind of a nebulous topic in the New Testament. And again, I'm not a New Testament scholar, but there's been lots of New Testament scholars who have written about this ad nauseam. Do not take my word for Christian theology. You can go out there and find it yourself and I invite you to do so.

John Larsen [00:24:44] But we're going to talk about what the Book of Mormon believes about hell. First of all, first Nephi 143 right out of the gate, this passage, hell hath no end. I mean that's pretty clear. That's an eternal punishment. Hell hath no end.

John Larsen [00:25:02] 2nd Nephi 9:16 Everlasting fire, lake of fire and brimstone, forever and ever, and has no end. Everlasting forever and ever and no end. All three of those appear in the same passage. Pretty clear. I mean that's not, it's not, it's not very ambiguous, right?

John Larsen [00:25:21] 2nd Nephi 9, verse 26. Fire and brimstone, which is endless torment. 2nd Nephi 23 lake of fire and brimstone, endless torment. Mosiah 16:2 howling and weeping and wailing and gnashing their teeth. Mosiah 16:11 endless damnation, endless damnation. 2nd Nephi 26:10 if they blah blah blah, yield to the devil, therefore they must go down to hell.

John Larsen [00:25:52] Jacob 7:18 Hell, eternity, and eternal punishment are all referenced in there. So it is very clear that a hell is a very real place. It is eternal, and it is described as a place of lake of fire and brimstone. These are all anachronistic ideas for 600 BC. Let's just put that right out the front.

John Larsen [00:26:17] No Jewish family leaving Jerusalem in 600 BC would be able to anticipate the Council of Trent, which was going to happen some 2,100 years later. All right, so we're in. We're in agreement that the Book of Mormon is the. Is the keystone, the centerpiece of Mormonism. And in the Book of Mormon, it makes very clear that hell is very real and it is forever being punished. And the metaphor of the punishment, or the literal punishment is burning. Right, that's pretty clear.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] Should we save the Mormon apologetic responses to the end?

John Larsen [00:26:56] No. Throw it at me.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] Do you know what it is, Carah, for this one?

Carah Burrell [00:27:02] The anachronistic part or the.

John Dehlin [00:27:04] No. Well, this eternal punishment part. So I remember asking this question in seminary. I'm like, wait a minute. On the one hand, we tell my evangelical friends that Mormons don't really believe in hell, that everybody makes it to heaven except for the outer darkness. On the other hand, the Book of Mormon is talking about eternal punishment. And the answer is eternal is synonymous with God. And so eternal punishment simply means God's punishment. It doesn't actually mean for eternity.

John Larsen [00:27:40] Yeah, it was actually Joseph Smith who said that.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] Checkmate. John Larsen.

John Larsen [00:27:44] Yeah. Well, it's a stretch, you know, because why the fire and brimstone? What is that? What metaphor is that? You know, I. I don't.

John Dehlin [00:27:56] I don't know. It's kind of like skin of blackness doesn't mean skin of blackness. Right, Carah?

Carah Burrell [00:28:02] Yeah, but it's like when you want to use it as the tool that you need to use it for in a certain setting. No one's talking metaphors during that.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] Well, and again, idiom. It's idiomatic.

John Larsen [00:28:15] All right, so here's this big, heavy set of plates that they're schlepping around the New world they're burying. They're fighting off people. They're putting in the bottom of a barrel of beans. Everyone's trying to steal it. But why? Because Joseph Smith can simply pen a revelation a few years or months later and just overrule it and, you know, he doesn't have to describe any sort of. This came from, you know, Omni, who gave it to this guy who gave it to Alma. Da, da da da da, why does the Book of Morm spend so much time on the provenance of that book and the importance of their patrilineal line of handing the book down from father to son to father to son?

John Larsen [00:28:59] Why? Why spend so much of our mortal existence on this book when the expiration date of the doctrines was literally like months later? I mean, they didn't even make it to Nauvoo. The teachings of this book. I mean, what. What's going on there? Why. Why is it so important for such a short time? And why, if we say this is the book that is written for our times, why is it completely irrelevant now? Is that just for people born or people who are around in 1830? What's going on there?

John Dehlin [00:29:32] Yeah, I think most correct book. Right. Keystone of our religion. Those are the ways we talk about the book. Right.

John Larsen [00:29:39] Okay. So we're not really here to talk about hell, although hell is an interesting place. We're going to come back to it now. I want to talk about the Devil and his traits. So I counted out 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 particular superpowers or traits or devils that exist in the Book of Mormon. However you want to. You want to do it. So shall we go through the nine devils in the Book of Mormon?

John Dehlin [00:30:06] Let's do it.

John Larsen [00:30:07] All right, the first one is the. I'm kind of combining these together. Is the enemy of good and the source of all evil. So Alma 34, 23, the devil, who is an enemy to all righteousness, it says. So we want to be, we want to be clear, the devil's modus operandi here. The Devil's, he, he just hates anything that is good at all, but he's also the source of evil. And that's, that's, that's key. Mormon 7:11 says, all good comes from God, all evil comes from the Devil, and the Devil is an enemy to God. So the Devil is an enemy of God. That's an important one.

John Larsen [00:30:45] And Mormon 7, 17, the devil will never persuade anybody to do anything that's good. And Omni 1:25, evil comes from the Devil. So there's clearly passages there that establish that evil does not exist prior to the Devil. The evil is sourced out of the Devil, and the Devil is the embodiment of. Of the enemy to anything good. Does that make sense? I don't want to belabor that point too much.

Carah Burrell [00:31:13] So confusing. If I was Mormon, I would quit on the spot right there.

John Larsen [00:31:19] So when we take this with our free will that we'd already established before in Nephi that we're saying when God created people, they couldn't act one way or the other unless they're enticed. But, but if the devil himself, Lucifer, the second born, who rebelled against God when he before he rebelled against God, he couldn't be the source of all evil because he was one of the great ones.

John Larsen [00:31:48] So the evil is not coming from him. So you've got human beings who are going to come down to this planet to be tested. But tested by what? Because the testing component, which we're told in the Book of Mormon is the source of all evil, doesn't yet exist.

John Larsen [00:32:04] He has not become the fallen angel at this point in the narrative, when they are introducing the plan of salvation, and that's even begging the question that the plan of salvation, we learn later from Joseph Smith, was a repeat of the plan of salvation that came before.

John Larsen [00:32:22] But yet the Book of Mormon is teaching us that evil didn't exist before the devil, which is the fallen son of God. Okay, that's roll number one. We got eight more to go. Okay, second one the devil is the leader of the great and abominable kingdom.

John Larsen [00:32:44] He is the great and abominable king, the king of all the world. 1st Nephi 12:23 and it came to pass, I beheld, after they dwindled in unbelief, they became dark and loathsome and filthy people full of idleness and all manner of abominations.

John Larsen [00:32:58] Those are the ones being led by the abominable great king. 1st Nephi 13. 6 the great abominable church, and the Devil was the founder of it. 1 Nephi 14:3 the Great Pit was digged for the church, meaning the church of the Devil. The Great Pit dig was founded by devil. 1 Nephi 14:10 There are only two churches, the mother of all abominations and the whore of all the earth. And then the God's Church.

John Larsen [00:33:28] 2nd Nephi 28:18 19 calls the church of the Devil the whore of the entire earth. First Nephi 22:22 the kingdom of the devil was built among men. All churches which are built to get gain belong to the kingdom of the Devil. Let's pause on that for a second. If your church is getting gain, you mean like you're putting money into the bank account? According to one Nephi, you are of the kingdom of the Devil. That's interesting.

John Larsen [00:33:57] Alma, chapter five. The devil is your shepherd. Alma, chapter 2813 he speaks of the power of the devil and second Nephi 1:18 the will and captivity of the Devil. So the king of the world, the one running all the churches. Except for the one true church that we established, there was only one. And for most of the history of the world, that one true church was in a state of apostasy. It didn't exist.

John Larsen [00:34:24] So if we take the last 2,000 years, most of that time the one true church was just not around. So the only leader, the king of the world, the mother of all abominations, the whore of all the earth, the kingdom of the devil was the one and only kingdom on this planet.

Carah Burrell [00:34:43] Wow. And then if you add in what you said before about how the devil cannot do any good works, it can't bring anything good into the world, Right?

John Larsen [00:34:49] Nothing good.

Carah Burrell [00:34:50] That's outrageous.

The Devil's Superpowers and Role in Mormon Theology

John Larsen [00:34:52] All right, all right. So we've established now that the Devil is the enemy of all good and the source of all evil. First superpower. Second superpower. He is the leader of the great Abominable Church. Everything but the Mormon Church.

John Larsen [00:35:08] The third one, he is the tempter of the heart. So 2 Nephi 28:20 it says that, that the devil does three things to your heart. He angers you, he pacifies you and tells you there is no devil. So if you believe there is no devil, you're being led by the devil. If you're angry, you're being led by the Devil. If you're pacified, if you're just neutral, you're being led by the devil. 3rd Nephi 11:28 Contention is of the Devil. So if you want to argue with anybody or say, teach a discussion or tell people their religion is not true, that's coming from the devil. Mosiah 4:14 Quarreling is to serve the Devil.

John Larsen [00:35:58] Do you ever get in a fight with your spouse? That's the devil. 3rd Nephi 2 Imagining up vain by the power of the God. If you have vanity at all, that's the Devil. If you brushed your hair too much or whatever.

John Larsen [00:36:15] Helaman 7:21 if you want to get gain or you've ever praised gold or silver, that's the devil. Anybody who's trying to get gain or has warm thoughts about gold or silver, that's the devil in your heart. Alma 11:21 Zeezram is said to be expert in the devices of the Devil. And as a reminder, the story of Zeezram is the story basically of night 19th century provincial court.

John Larsen [00:36:44] So if you're a lawyer or using those devices, that's the devil. 3rd Nephi 6:15 stirring up people and puffing them up with pride, seeking power and authority and Riches in vain things. If you've sought anything, that's vanity. If you've ever pursued any kind of money, if you've ever taken a job or taken a position of authority, if you've ever sought any power, if you've ever had any pride in anything that you've done, that's the devil.

John Larsen [00:37:10] Alma 48:17 if we were all like Moroni, the devil would have power over, would not have power over their heart. So you gotta be just like Moroni. Now, what's funny about Moroni is he wasn't afraid to run people through with a sword. So I'm just putting that out there. 3rd Nephi 1815 watch and pray always. Watch and pray always. Least you be tempted and led away captive. And fourth Nephi 1:28 Satan gets hold of everybody's heart.

John Larsen [00:37:38] So the devil has this superpower where he doesn't have to whisper things in your ear, he can make you feel. Because the heart has always been the metaphor in this milieu for one's emotions, one's desires, what one wants. And the devil can skip straight to your heart. And in fact, most of what we shape, our worldview, our culture, on getting gain, having a good 401k, having a nice house, having a car, all of that is the devil. According to the Book of Mormon, it is all the devil. Putting that in your heart, and he's putting it straight into your emotions. That's a pretty strong superpower.

Carah Burrell [00:38:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] Dang, man, I think we're all in trouble.

John Larsen [00:38:30] Yeah, we're just getting started. All right, number four, the devil is the ruler of hell. Second Nephi 8, 9. Devil was a fallen angel and became angels to. And he's talking about his spirits became angels to the devil. Now that one gave me a lot of pause when I was reading that, because the term angel seems to have a particular meaning. You know, so there are the servants of God now for everybody but Mormons, I'm not gonna say everybody, but for most Christian denomination, the angels are a different order of being than human beings. Angels and humans are not the same thing.

John Larsen [00:39:11] And that seems to be the case with the Book of Mormon too, to be honest with you. But the angels that followed the devil became angels to the devil. They didn't become demons, they became angels to the devil. And that speaks a lot about the underlying metaphysics of the book of Mormon.

John Larsen [00:39:31] Mosiah 16:3 it said that people subject themselves to the devil as being a subject in the kingdom. Alma 40:13 people were led captive by the will of the devil. 2nd Nephi 28:19. The devil will grab, will grasp them with his everlasting chains. Alma 41:4. The kingdom of the devil is endless misery.

John Larsen [00:39:55] And first, Nephi 15:35. The devil is the preparator of it, hell. And Alma9.28 speaks of the captivity of the Devil. Now. So I'm going over those pretty quick. What this is saying is that the Devil is here on the planet as a tempter and rules the Great and Abominable Church, but he is also the ruler of Hell. God is not the ruler of Hell. The Hell is the Devil's domain. Right.

John Dehlin [00:40:27] So

John Larsen [00:40:29] when God created the Devil, when Lucifer was cast out, he imbued him with a certain set of powers because I was taught that we were peers, me and the devil, and we were both spirit children of our Father in Heaven. But when I came here, I was not given the ability to talk to people's hearts, nor was I given the ability to source all evil, nor was I granted to be the leader of the Great and abominable kingdom, nor was I handed, near the end of my reign, the ruling of Hell. But he was.

John Dehlin [00:41:11] Yeah. Yep.

John Larsen [00:41:13] You guys with me so far?

John Dehlin [00:41:15] Yeah.

John Larsen [00:41:15] I mean, all right, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:19] I don't want to steal your thunder, but this idea of a ruler of Hell, it's already problematic because Mormons don't really have a hell. But I'm probably getting ahead of us.

John Larsen [00:41:27] Well, it just depends, you know, like, that's not. That's. That's why we read at the beginning this thing about the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] Is.

John Larsen [00:41:34] Is the Book of Mormon of value? Is this all just baloney? It's an important question. Okay, superpower number five, the devil is an angel of light. Second, Nephi 9:9 refers to him as an angel of light. In Alma 3053, the devil appears in the angel of Light, telling Korihor there is no God. And of course, in later Mormon theology, this surfaces with Joseph Smith, that the Devil can. As a matter of fact, there's a whole section of the doctrine Governance dedicated to trying to shake hands with spirits because they can represent themselves. So the fifth superpower that the devil and his angels have is they can physically apparate in the manner that makes them look like angels of light.

John Larsen [00:42:19] So it's at least two references in the Book of Mormon to that. All right, superpower number six, the Devil, according to the Book of Mormon, is able to take possession of people, physical possession. Alma 40:13. The spirit of the devil did enter into them. Mosiah 3:9. They cast out devils which dwell in the hearts of children, of men. Mormon 9. 24. They cast out devils. Third Nephi 14: 22. They cast out devils. First Nephi 11:31. Multitudes with devils and unclean spirits. Alma 14:7. Possessed with the devil. So I want to make clear that the Book of Mormon very, very clearly believes that devils have the superpower of being able to enter into and control human beings.

John Larsen [00:43:01] So not only can the devil appear to you as an angel of light, the devil can speak things directly to your heart, give you emotions, and the devil can actually possess your physical being.

John Dehlin [00:43:17] Yeah. And anyone who served a Mormon mission will have heard the stories of exorcisms and of investigators that got possessed and missionaries that cast out the evil spirits.

John Larsen [00:43:28] Yeah, yeah. And blessing of homes, which was a sort of an exorcism, used to be in the priesthood manual up until about 20 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] And this one comes from Jesus. Right? Jesus cast spirits out of pigs. Right?

John Larsen [00:43:41] Jesus cast out spirits. Yeah. That is definitely in the New Testament.

John Dehlin [00:43:46] We come by that honestly.

John Larsen [00:43:48] Right, right. And by honesty.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] And by honesty I mean plagiarism.

John Larsen [00:43:53] I'm just here, I'm not necessarily trying to attack the Book of Mormon here. I'm trying to enumerate the special superpowers of the devil from the Book of Mormon here.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] All right, keep going.

John Larsen [00:44:02] Okay, here we go. The next one. The secret combination. The devil. And the secret combination is referred to in 2nd Nephi 9 9. Ether 8. 16, that the devil administers the oaths. Ether 8. 22. Oaths they talk about. And God responds with destroying the nation.

John Larsen [00:44:22] Helaman6 21. A band of robbers, covenants and oaths. And this happens all over in the Book of Mormon. There's the Gadian robbers, and we talked about this in the Cain episode, that there's the great Mahan who has the secret that's given to him by the devil. And the devil is running this big super conspiratorial secret society that he has been running since Cain and Abel. So one of his other powers is not only is he the king of the great and Abominable Church and the tempter of Hearts, he also has a big secret combination that's running.

John Larsen [00:45:01] But you know, you know what I think is funny about ether8.22? It says that the devil introduces oaths among people, and then God responds by destroying the nation. But isn't that what the devil wants? God seems like a doofus in this episode because, like, he's doing what the devil wants, which is to destroy all of his Works.

John Larsen [00:45:26] What's going on with you? God, Come on. Don't play into this guy's hands. Yeah, all right. Secret power. What are we at? 7, 8. 8. He can appear as a serpent in the garden. Now, we talked about it last episode, that the idea of the devil being a serpent is a more modern construction. A Mormon construction, not justified by the original Hebrew text. But turning into a serpent was one of his superpowers.

John Larsen [00:45:56] Second Nephi 2, 18. He was miserable and sought the misery of all of mankind. If he hadn't, they would have fallen. They would have stayed in that state forever. And Mosiah 16, three, he talks about causing the fall in reference to the serpent. So the Book of Mormon makes literal reference to the devil appearing to Eve in the form of a serpent. Now, modern.

John Larsen [00:46:19] Modern interpretation by Joseph Smith and others would have the serpent just being a metaphor, but the Book of Mormon seems to take it pretty literally. So not only can the devil turn himself into angels of light, he can take the form of snakes. All right.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] Yeah, it's almost like in Harry Potter, you know? What's that power, Carah? To be able to turn into animals?

Carah Burrell [00:46:48] I'm just here for my props. No, just kidding. I was gonna say you can turn into Boas. I am not into Harry Potter. I thought we've already discussed this.

John Dehlin [00:46:54] I keep forgetting.

John Larsen [00:46:55] Wait, I thought all millennials loved Harry Potter. You're breaking my worldview.

Carah Burrell [00:47:00] Yeah, I am. Not all millennials.

John Dehlin [00:47:02] Oh, Julia says it's Animagus. Animagus. Sorry, John Larsen. We digress. Keep going.

John Larsen [00:47:09] In Old English, the word is were. Or were. Like a werebear. A werewolf. Okay, so his last power is that he laughs. And third Nephi 9, 22. The devil Laugheth because of slain, fair sons and daughters. But it's funny. It was God that destroyed those sons and daughters. So what are you gonna do? So the devil is a laugher.

John Dehlin [00:47:34] That's a problem. That's a problem.

Carah Burrell [00:47:36] That's what the loud laughter is of the devil.

John Larsen [00:47:39] And then there's one little before we kind of take this apart and discuss in detail all the superpowers that the devil has, I wanna point out one other thing that the Book of Mormon teaches. It was kind of hinted at earlier, and that is that the natural man is a devil.

John Larsen [00:47:57] So 2 Nephi 10:24. The will of the devil and the flesh are the same. It says Mosiah 3, 19. For the natural man is an enemy to God and has been from the fall of Adam and will be forever and ever, unless he yields the enticings of the Holy Spirit and putteth off the natural man, become a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becomes a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord see fit to inflict upon him, even as a child does submit to his Father. But remember we were taught earlier, you can't include passive in that because that's the teaching of the devil.

John Larsen [00:48:34] Mosiah 16, 5. But remember that he that persists in his own carnal nature and goes on the way of sin and rebellion against God remaineth in his fallen state. And the devil hath all power over him. Therefore he is as though there were no redemption made, being an enemy to God and all. Also, is the devil an enemy to God?

John Larsen [00:48:54] So when God created us, at least on this planet, our default, although we were told earlier our default is we can't act unless we are enticed one way or the other. But that doesn't seem to be what the Book of Mormon teaches in full, because it also teaches that our very nature, the nature of man, is to be an enemy to God.

John Larsen [00:49:16] So we are devilish out the gate. So all other things being equal, according to Mormonism, basically the human being is a devil. The only difference is a human being does not have superpowers like the actual devil proper. And his angel has. It's a lot. It's hard to understand because it's self contradictory and it's so many people are

Carah Burrell [00:49:45] going to send this episode to their therapists to be like, this is why I didn't have a chance.

Does the Devil Actually Win in Mormon Cosmology

John Larsen [00:49:51] Okay, so let's get to the meat of the issue. I'm going to make my thesis right now. The devil wins. The devil takes everything. Okay, this cat starts out with nothing, right? He is just one of at least 10 billion or 100 billion spirits. The Elohim and his wives just knocked out. They're these spirits that are waiting to come down to creation. He's got nothing, right? The first thing he does is he steals 1/3 of all of God's creation. He just takes it right out the rake, right out the beginning. God anties up and the devil takes it all. One third of all of his creations.

John Larsen [00:50:37] Then he gets cast down to this world where he is the king triumphant of this world. Throughout its entire history, the devil is running the world not just as the on the throne, but also via secret and underhanded things. This is his world through and through. Look at history from a Mormon lens. Most places, most times, most people, God does not even put up a fight. He simply lets the devil have his way. He doesn't try to intervene. And in fact, God says if I intervene, it will mess with human free will. Yet we know that human free will is devilish to begin with. So if he doesn't intervene, we will all be devils.

John Larsen [00:51:25] And then he allows Satan to have these superpowers. He can appear as an angel, he can talk directly to your soul, he can possess your body. He can run the government. He can. I mean, we go on and on with those things that God had to imbue those powers in the devil unless he got them from somewhere else. Right, but we believe that God is the man in charge of the universe. Right? So God had to grant Lucifer all of these superpowers because I pointed out before you and I don't have them. So they had to come from somewhere. They're not. They're not built into our firmware. They had to be given to the devil. All right, you guys with me so far?

John Dehlin [00:52:04] Yep.

John Larsen [00:52:06] Okay, so the devil has zero constraint. He can do with impunity whatever he wants. He has the power to tempt. He has the power to possess. If people don't follow the complicated, esoteric, hidden, and oftentimes racist teachings of God, then they're in the devil's power.

John Larsen [00:52:28] If God's people tell you things that are on their face, contradictory and flat out illogical, and you don't accept them, even though those people might be talking the same way as somebody with serious mental illness talks, you are in the Devil's power.

John Larsen [00:52:47] He is rewarded the devil, with the kingdom that contains the majority of God's children. So if you look at the plan of salvation, and we did that before, almost everybody is going to end up in hell according to the Book of Mormon, because the Book of Mormon is very stringent. So not only does God take one third the souls at the beginning, he rules the world for the entirety of human existence, and then he is rewarded with a kingdom in which he can do whatever the fuck he wants. He can torture people, he can rape them, he can kill them over and over again. He can bring them back to life.

John Larsen [00:53:26] He can create all sorts of creatures to tort them. Oh, I'm going too far. That power is never actually given to the devil. So we have to assume that all of the demons and torture devices in hell were actually created by God.

John Larsen [00:53:48] So he is rewarded with a kingdom contains most everybody. And in the great Divorce, Satan gets almost all of God's creat. The devil has one Desire, according to the Book of Mormon, that's to make mankind suffer. So God rewards him with his favorite thing forever.

John Larsen [00:54:09] The Devil is in rebellion. And what does the Devil want? For humankind to suffer. So God says, all right, let him suffer. Let him suffer from now until all eternity. What does the Devil not get out of this deal? He gets everything that he wants and God gets. It's hardly nothing.

John Dehlin [00:54:31] I mean, narrow is the path. So there's going to be like less, you know, like if you. If only Mormons, exalted, righteous super Mormons who pay tithing and get temple married and honor their covenants until the end, make it. That's not even 1/2 of 1%. That's a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction. But I guess Satan doesn't get them.

John Larsen [00:54:58] I guess not. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] I think by any stretch that's a losing percentage, right? It's 99.999, right? Yeah.

John Larsen [00:55:10] And even if you say, okay, well, there's not really the hell, except for apostates like you and me, that there's the telestial kingdom. But then, you know, the celestial kingdom has been walked back. So you're eternally, you know, and you're eternally not fulfilling your destiny. You'd be miserable forever based on these actions that happened before.

John Larsen [00:55:38] So I'm going to ask the question that I've asked before that I pointed out before. If the Devil really wanted to thwart God's plan, if the devil really didn't like Jesus Christ's plan, he would have just simply gone and taken a powder.

John Larsen [00:55:52] Because the entirety of the plan of salvation hangs on the Devil. Because what would happen if the devil had just taken his guys and say, hey, we're gonna go play lawn darts the next 6,000 years on Venus? Fuck you guys. Adam and Eve get down there and they're still wandering around staring at the fruit in the garden. They're not going to take anything.

John Larsen [00:56:13] And even if something get out of that, the entirety of Jesus Christ's plan, which was to return all the glory to God, which is the key. What does God want out of this? He wants one thing out of this. He wants you to worship him. He wants you to give him glory.

John Larsen [00:56:31] So what is wrong with the devil? Except I just pointed out that he gets everything. But if he really wanted to thwart God's plan, he just would have done nothing. Why can I see that? And the Devil says that, that, that he's just doing that, which was done in other worlds, that he had already observed this played out he knew what awaited for him in this devilish role. Why would he do that? There is only one, or there's only two possible answers, if you ask me. And I've thought about this one, he's in cahoots with God. Like, this is their plan from the get go.

John Larsen [00:57:06] Like, they are working together. And at the end, the great reveal is saying, ha, ha, we got you guys. Or two, the devil is in fact a God. I can't come up with any other solution. I mean, how do you get all those godlike powers if you're not actually a God?

John Larsen [00:57:24] How are you rewarded with your own kingdom for all eternity if you're not actually a God? What. What else is there? The only other thing is that the devil loses. I mean, God loses and the devil wins.

John Dehlin [00:57:39] Mm.

Carah Burrell [00:57:40] Makes sense. I think that, like, everything you just described, it all came out of one place that led to another and just so many different theologies adding onto it, this whole snowball of all these ideas that we call Mormonism now. And, like, you know, if you asked a Mormon this, they'd be like, you know, what, do you have any other better ideas of why evil exists in the world? Like, I'm sure they'd probably have a million different reasons why. Like, okay, well, that's what exists. That's what our theology is, what we believe. Leave us alone. It's like, do you have any better, better ideas? But when you push back and say what you just said, it's like, okay, well then who is he?

Carah Burrell [00:58:11] Why does he have these powers? Like, is there any better reason than what John Larsen just said? Like, does. Is he not having all these God powers? Is he not a subcontractor for God? And that God's powers that we use for atonement and redemption, that we want to live in, are also contracted out to do the worst things in the entire world.

Carah Burrell [00:58:32] So I think Mormons, if you pick up one end of that stick, you got to pick up the other two. And also, razzle dazzle, I have a lot of other rants locked and loaded too.

John Larsen [00:58:42] And I think that's the problem with the plan of salvation, because you'd have to conclude that this world, and I know I've said this before, but I want to drive the point home, is Jesus Christ's plan. This is God's plan. All of the war, all of the hate, all of the temptation, all of the devilry, all of the destruction, all of that was what God wanted. Because God is omnipotent and God is doing the pattern of what he was instructed by his God. This is exactly what he wanted to happen. Everything you're saying, families being ripped apart by Mormonism, people following leaders and kings and priests that are full of destruction, the wholesale exploitation of children and. And raiding all of it, Everything. It's all God's plan. This is what he wanted. Couldn't it have been a little bit better? Couldn't we have done this without mosquitoes, for example? Like, why mosquitoes?

John Dehlin [00:59:45] It's almost like Mormon Satan is a spiritual personal trainer that helps us build our obedience muscles and our faithfulness muscles, because if Satan weren't there tempting us, then we wouldn't learn how to overcome sin. And so in that sense, I do remember concluding at some point in my high school years when I thought about this stuff, that Satan must be part of the Godhead, because like you said, John, he would just. He would just stand down and he could thwart the entire plan. Now, the response I got was that he's just so evil, so incredibly evil that he can't help but just do evil, and he's incapable of anything other than, like, mayhem and sin and bad

Carah Burrell [01:00:33] things, like a portion of glory is what I always heard.

John Dehlin [01:00:37] Yeah, but the truth is he's an integral, integral, crucial part of God's plan of salvation.

John Larsen [01:00:45] Well, and, you know, if you look at it the way we use Satan on a personal level, so, like, if I was to hit the bottle, become an alcoholic, and die homeless in 10 years, people would attribute that to, I yielded to the temptations of the devil. But, you know, in the Book of Mormon, it points out multiple times, not just the Book of Mormon, the New Testament is full of this, that the devilishness is looking for reward and personal gain and money and honor and sitting on high seats. So it basically outlines everything that the church, the Mormon Church and other churches do. And if you think about it, if you're the devil and you want to produce the most mayhem, you're not gonna go after people who are subjected, who have the genetic disposition to alcoholism.

John Larsen [01:01:32] You're gonna go after the guys at the top. And Joseph Smith says that, you know, that the minute they abuse any of their power. Amen to the priesthood of that person. I guarantee you, every single one of those cats has overstepped the line. So it is very clear, even from Mormon theology that. That every member of the quorum of the 12, every member of the 70, every bishop you've ever had, every stake president you ever had, is fully 100% in the control of the devil, because that's what the Devil would do, he would confuse you. He would call good, evil, evil, good. So what does that mean?

John Larsen [01:02:13] He's in charge. So religion, or whatever your political stripe is, and it's whatever your political stripe is, whatever religion you belong to, whatever, whatever, whatever, it's all the Devil. Because the real way to escape the Devil is just to walk away.

John Larsen [01:02:34] There's no other way. Because the conundrum of the powers that we laid out means you can't trust your heart, you can't trust your emotions, you can't trust your logic, you can't trust your church leaders, you can't trust any organization, you can't trust any king, you can't trust any secret combination. You can't trust scripture. The Devil quotes scripture for his own benefit. What can you trust? Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

John Larsen [01:03:01] Because anybody can put on the act. And of course, as Mormons, we believe that of the millions of churches and belief patterns, they were all false. Every single one of them, except this one shining star, which has a terrible track record, might I add.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] And I mean, I think it seems like the main functional role of Satan is to make us afraid and to make us want to obey. And that's where follow the prophet comes in. The prophet won't lead you astray. Obedience is the first law of heaven. It's sort of a tool of compulsion, right, John Larsen?

Broader Reflections on Mormon Theology and Belief

John Larsen [01:03:38] Yeah, I think that's very true. Yeah. But I also think there's another layer on top which is none of this, none of the beliefs about God make any sense at all because of the state the world is in and always has been.

John Larsen [01:03:59] If you want to talk about a all powerful God who's running the show, you've got a huge problem. Of those two things I laid out at the beginning, which is first of all, free will. You know, people are born into terrible circumstances. Like, I ended up leaving the church because I ended up getting an interest in church history and church source documents. And I started reading them and I realized that most of what I've been taught were lies and intentional lies at that.

John Larsen [01:04:34] Where did I go wrong? I was doing what they told me to do, to study the teachings of Joseph Smith. What did I do? Unless studying the teachings of Joseph Smith is in fact what the devil wants me to do.

John Larsen [01:04:47] So the only way out of this evil conundrum is to actually recognize that the teaching of God in general is ridiculous and it doesn't make any sense. There is no model in my mind of a belief in a God that makes any sense. And I'll be happy to talk with the rest of you via email for the rest of our lives. Going back and forth with you, trying to convince me that there's a God. But I've long said one thing. I do not believe in God for God's sake. Because if God exists, given the world that we have, given the Book of Mormon and all that kind of stuff in a Mormon milieu, then he's a terrible.

John Larsen [01:05:23] He's a terrible being. He is despicable. Because all of this devil stuff, you have God standing behind it. God is the one who created hell. God is the one who created the devil's angels. God knew what would happen to them.

John Larsen [01:05:36] God is the one who created all of the devilish brimstone and fire. God is the one who set things up to have a great and abominable church. God is the one who set it up to have the secret society. God is the one who set up Cain and Abel from the beginning.

John Larsen [01:05:54] It has to be God. Otherwise God is just a being that we shouldn't pay any attention to. If all of this is just spinning out of God's control and God can't do anything about it but sit up there and like, knit or whatever the fuck he's doing, well, then fuck him. Like. Like come down if you. If you really want to say you're in charge, show us be in charge. Because it's a mess down here. And so the only belief that gives me any comfort is there isn't anybody up there. Because if there's somebody up there, that's way worse.

Carah Burrell [01:06:30] Love it. You know what else you could add to that list, too, is that God also doesn't care about his flawed epistemology of if he's going to set up a one true church. And the way in which people are going to know about it is through, you know, just like happened with the amazing debate. Congrats, John Dehlin on the jubilee video where John and Cardon were going back and forth, forth about like, well, isn't these. Isn't this your prophets? Isn't this your mouth? He's on earth. And Cardan says, like, when the prophet said that black people were cursed from, you know, this span of almost the entire beginning of the church, that was just a corruption.

Carah Burrell [01:07:06] And then John Dillon, of course, said, aren't these your prophets? Aren't these your prophet seers and revelators and Mormons and apologists will constantly come back with that idea that, like, no, you have to dovetail this revelation that the prophet will say something and it could be wrong. But of course, you got to pray about it and receive the revelation for yourself, even though technically, if you disagree with it, you're going to completely be out of line and stuff with the church and its orthodoxy, and then there'll be consequences to pay, and it's not good to disobey the prophet. Besides all of that, you know, so on top of everything, you are already emotionally set up with your.

Carah Burrell [01:07:39] Your cognitive biases to agree with this flawed epistemology, that everything John Larsen just said is all irrelevant because we want so badly to believe in this God, in this afterlife. Our families can be together forever. We will forget all of these critical thinking, all of these, like, logical problems with what this God would actually be if he existed in the nature that Mormonism has laid out for us. We'll forget all of that. And the entire epistemology that we know is indecipherable from cults and other fraudulent teachings and false doctrines. Like, that's what's so such a problem, a glaring problem in Mormonism to me, that all of that combined with such a flawed epistemology, you cannot decipher any kind of truth from fiction.

Carah Burrell [01:08:23] And so you. You raise little kids in that type of system, that kind of devil, that kind of like, you can be so easily persuaded by the devil, and you'll never know the prophets themselves can. Can be so persuaded by the devil to speak these false things. It's like, what is the point then of any of this?

John Larsen [01:08:42] I. I feel like I. Kind of. Well said, by the way. I think I kind of left this in a negative cloud. I think there's people thinking, oh, well, then, what is it? May I offer a little bit of silver lining to this whole thing?

John Larsen [01:08:55] John Steinbeck said in east of Eden or whatever, now that you no longer have to be perfect, now you can be good. So if we let go of the idea that there's this eternal struggle with the devil on our left shoulder and the angel on the right shoulder, that we look and say, well, you know what? All of the wickedness and evil and terribleness that I keep pointing out came from us, from human beings. It's all inside us, as is all of the wonderful things, all the great art, all of the great, the great thoughts, the love, the kindness, the joy and beauty that exists in every human society, that all came from us too, that they're both in our hearts.

John Larsen [01:09:48] And when you realize that, say, okay, I was a Mormon and I believe 999 churches were false and one was true. Let me offer you the idea that all of them are false. Because as human beings, we are not as smart and as clear thinking and as logical as we want to pretend we are. And when we look and say, well, who's right? The Palestinians or the Israelis? They're both wrong. Who's right? The Americans or the Russians? They're both wrong. We're all cut from the same jib.

John Larsen [01:10:18] We're trying to make everyone realize that we are right. But if we can get rid of that idea and realize that we are all flawed, very flawed, painfully flawed, and that all of the terrible things of humanity exist in us again, as does all the beauty, then we can start dealing with building a world that is a little bit better. Because it's not about us proving ourselves over them. It's not about the ex Mormons being right and the Mormons being wrong, or the Mormons being wrong and the ex Mormons being right.

John Larsen [01:10:54] If we can learn to recognize that this stuff is the tales of children, then we can start engaging as adults. But that is a little bit more oblique. In the beginning, but only in the beginning, after you fully let this stuff go, then you start seeing beauty absolutely everywhere.

John Larsen [01:11:15] And there is. When you let go, I'll give the one concrete example, then I'll be quiet. When you let go of the idea that families are forever, then you realize all you have is now. All you have is this string of moments. You only get one year to be with your three year old before she turns into a four year old. You only get a few years to be with the child before they become a teenager. You only get a little time to be with your teenager. You only get a few decades at best to be with the person you love, be with your spouse, to be with your family.

John Larsen [01:11:47] It is all transitory. And rather than put all of our pine cones in a tree for this beautiful heaven that awaits, let's just live here. And if I go to the other side, all I want to be able to say is I did the best I could with what I had. I didn't know what was coming. But I tried to live the richest, most kind, most loving life I could. I tried to fight for truth. I tried to help people. And that's what it's all about. And then I don't care if they want to lock me up for all eternity when I cross over, so be it.

John Larsen [01:12:20] I will happily wear the shackles. But we don't know what's coming. We don't know what was before. All we know is what's now. And we all know that we can do better and that's, we don't need the devil, we don't need God. We just need loving kindness. That's all.

Carah Burrell [01:12:39] I love that snaps.

John Dehlin [01:12:44] Snaps for John.

Carah Burrell [01:12:44] My John de Lynn prayer.

John Dehlin [01:12:46] Beautiful.

John Larsen [01:12:47] I'm sorry. This was a whole thing. It feels like I was at 11 the whole time. I got one wrong hour long rant. But this stuff kind of pisses me off a little bit because it's caused so many people so much pain and needlessly. So the devil doesn't have control of your heart. If you're an addict, you can overcome your addiction. It's hard, it's tough. If you've broken relationships, you can repair them. It's tough, it's hard. There's no. There's no state of grace and there's no state of sin. We're all in the state of grace and sin all the time.

Carah Burrell [01:13:26] Right on.

John Dehlin [01:13:28] Beautiful, John.

The 800 Pound Gorilla and Closing Thoughts

John Larsen [01:13:31] All right, are we ready to talk about the 800 pound gorilla?

John Dehlin [01:13:36] Oh, no, let's not. Let's avoid it. I think you have some news. I think you have a bomb you want to drop on our audience, John.

Carah Burrell [01:13:46] Should I put on my razzle dazzle so people will feel happier?

John Larsen [01:13:50] Yeah, and I won't get through this without tears. So I started having really serious doubts in the church in 2003, which was 21 years ago. And then I tried. I was a Pimo, or whatever we call them now. For the next two years I tried to make it work.

John Larsen [01:14:13] Then I left the church and I got first heavily involved in just the ex Mormon community, just trying to help other people. I felt so lonely leaving the church. The bitter loneliness of the passive shunning that comes from your family, that comes from the people you thought you were your friends. And then I started a little podcast and I saw all the pain and, you know, and we were able to help a lot of people, a lot of people. I have seen and talked to hundreds and thousands and. And so 2014, I retired, kind of lived my life and then, you know, I'd pop back in and do Sunstone pretty much every year.

John Larsen [01:14:52] And then I came on into this for the last couple years. But my soul has been telling me for the past six or seven months that it's time to step on. And I'm going to be fairly brief here, but I'll. I'm going to go record a big long exposition about why I'm stepping on and what I think about it over on my YouTube channel. We'll give that out in just a second. But the time has come for me to let go of Mormonism.

John Larsen [01:15:29] And, you know, I spent 30 years as a Mormon trying hard, finding identity, finding fellowship, finding my people. And then I spent somewhat south less than 20 years during that time of finding my people with those who were seeking a new world, a new life outside of Mormonism, and interacting with people who had left Scientology and people who left the Jehovah Witnesses and ex Catholics, Next Baptist, next Muslims. There's this world of people stepping out from these high demand religions. But I always have to devote a certain amount of space to this.

Carah Burrell [01:16:07] And

John Larsen [01:16:09] the reality is, you know, that we're engaged in this kind of existential war, a philosophical war, Mormons versus ex Mormons and the different sides. But I'm going to tell you a truth that's going to take a lot of time for many of you to accept. The war about Mormonism only exists in your heart.

John Larsen [01:16:31] It doesn't. It's not real. It's not something that exists in the universe. It's true you have friends and relatives and stuff who are fighting this out, but the war will go on until you let it go. And for me, it's time. It's time to let it go. So I'm not saying I'll never talk about Mormonism again, but I'm, I'm pretty well done with it. I've been packing up all my Mormon books. I've been taking down all the stuff. I just, it doesn't speak to my soul.

John Larsen [01:17:02] Let me say I have such gratitude for the work John has done in particular. John, I've said this before, but you're the one who inspired me to start a podcast. You had, you had been doing Mormon stories, then you had retired to go do something else for a while, and I kind of jumped into that space.

John Larsen [01:17:22] And then you came back and reached out right away and you've been a friend and a confidant and a frenemy and competition and on my team and on my side and all the things that we can be over the, over the past few years and my respect for those of you who can keep carrying this burden, keep carrying the water, for everyone out there, is immense. So while I'm saying I think it's time for me to move on, I don't want that to sound disparaging for those who still keep fighting the fight.

John Larsen [01:17:53] And John, my, my eternal gratitude to what you've done, Carah. You know, thank you, John. You, you, you've been an amazing friend. You've come out a few times. I'm I love to see the new direction and then the way, the way things are going. And, you know, I'm, I'm glad that you agreed to come on and be a foil for me and, and help me out, but. And I appreciate everybody who's, who's listened and, and, and given me things and been kind and caught me meals and, and just, I can't, I can never express the gratitude for this community. And when I say this community, I mean both the Mormons and the ex Mormons, because you guys are basically the same.

John Larsen [01:18:38] You, you see that, right? You're the, you're the same. And it's only when you go beyond that you'll actually recognize that. All right, I'm not dead. Here's my, here's my self promotion. The website is up. You can see what's going on at the farm. We're at www.dabbler farm d a b b l e r dabblerfarm.org and we have put up a GoFundMe. We're trying to build some hoop houses. And if you'd like to say thank you, if you're not, that's fine. I've been richly rewarded. You can come and give us a little bit of donation. There's a page there to explain what we're trying to do, who we're trying to do it with, and why we're trying to do it.

John Larsen [01:19:22] We have a podcast now, the Dabbler Farm, the Dabbler Cast. It's available on itunes and it's available on, well, you know, Amazon and Spotify and all the regular places. So if you're interested in hearing me talk about our food supply and how we change to live in the world better today, then you can head on over there. I will record and we'll put links up here. I will record my longer version of why I feel it's time for me to move on and what that means for me on my YouTube channel. If you search John Larsen on YouTube, you'll find it and it'll be up by the time this is posted.

John Larsen [01:20:01] And so, so, yeah, you can engage. I still enjoy hearing from you. My email is@john larson.org john larson.org and you're. You're all my people, whether you believe it or you don't believe it, whether you've accepted it, whether you've walked away from it. You know I love you all, but I'm tired of your

John Dehlin [01:20:25] I love it.

Carah Burrell [01:20:27] Where do broken hearts go? Whitney Houston asked dabblerfarm.org that's where they go, are there F bombs there? At least on the podcast?

John Larsen [01:20:35] No, I haven't, I haven't. I'm kind of doing a preamble. We explain what we're doing and why. So I haven't had the opportunity, but we're lining up some great interviews. If you like a podcast where people talk to, like, shepherds and people who, like, raise rabbits for a living, then you'll enjoy, you'll enjoy that podcast.

Carah Burrell [01:20:52] Well, I'm happy for your farm and everything. I visited it and it makes my heart sing and just feel like that's what so many of us want, is just a disconnection from so much of the bullshit of this world. And growing your own food and all of the stuff that you do is just such an encouragement. And I hope other people can start doing small things in their own way and support John Larsen and his farm because it's such a gorgeous piece of land. And I love you all my heart. Thanks for being my friend.

John Larsen [01:21:18] I love you, too. And I love you too, John. And John has graciously agreed to keep hosting Mormon Expression. The funds out there, we'll go to keep that up. Please, please. We are always rotating through people join these communities, they participate, they heal, they move on, which means we're always losing donors. So if you can find it in your goodwill to throw a buck or two towards Mormon stories, it has. That talent is multiplied by the number of people that John de Linda has touched all around the world. And he's a man, and he's a flawed man, but he's the one who God sent us, so. So, you know, help him out and help out the, the up and coming voices. There's a lot of great stories to be told.

John Dehlin [01:22:09] Thank you, John. I'll just have to say it's been a, it's been a super honor of mine and a privilege to have you be kind of share your talents on Mormon Stories with my audience. I know my audience is going to be super sad and a bunch of people are going to just not want to accept it and be upset. I'll say I'm on Reddit all the time where they're like, who's the best podcast Mormon podcaster ever? And when they say John Larsen, I'm never upset. I'm just honored to be mentioned in, you know, in the same post with you because I, you know, you're a legend, and I hope for a long, long time people are able to still find the work you did, both on Mormon expression and on Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [01:22:57] And your impact is gonna last for centuries. And I don't think I'm being hyperbolic, but you're a teddy bear, you're a big hearted guy and you're brilliant and we're gonna miss you and we love you and we hope you change your mind. We hope you come back.

John Larsen [01:23:15] Who knows, who knows what the future.

John Dehlin [01:23:17] Muhammad Ali, I think he came back two or three different times. So we're going to hold out hope, John Larsen, that you change your mind.

John Larsen [01:23:25] All right, well, John, I appreciate it and everything you guys have done and go Mormon stories. You guys are the best.

John Dehlin [01:23:32] Okay, so people can donate to dabblerfarm.org right? They can, like, can they become a monthly donor? How does that work?

John Larsen [01:23:39] We're going to set that up eventually. Right now if you'd like to donate, if you go to dabblerfarm.org you'll see the gofundme for the hoop houses. So that's where we're trying to direct. I want to be very clear of, of where exactly we're, we're using the money and what for. And we anticipate that people will be able to come visit Dabbler Farm and even stay on the, on the property to see what's going in about a year. So we've got to do some hardening and, and that sort of thing. But you know, we are, this is a multi generational thing. It is a farm that is done to be handed down to the stewards of the farm.

John Larsen [01:24:18] And I have two adult children who are participating. And you know, it's really more so not, you know, saying, growing your own food, of course we're trying to do that, but it's more about reinventing the way we live in this world. I find so much of what our culture has become just vacuous of real meaning and just trying to find the others and find those people who feel like something's wrong here and want to kind of look for a way to better engage the planet, better engage everyone else. You know, I've spent enough time bitching and moaning about religion and the church and God and yada, yada, yada.

John Larsen [01:24:59] And now I feel like the rest of my life I got to kind of put my mouth, my money or my work, where my mouth is, and try to make the world a better place the only ways I know how. So that's really what that project is about.

John Dehlin [01:25:11] That's sacred work.

Carah Burrell [01:25:13] Love it.

John Dehlin [01:25:14] So it's john@john larson.org It's John Larsen on YouTube and it's dabblerfarm.org. is that right?

John Larsen [01:25:21] Yep. And again, I'll send, I'll send their producer. So it'll be there in the, in the YouTube here.

John Dehlin [01:25:27] All right. We're gonna miss you, John. We love you.

Carah Burrell [01:25:29] We love you.

John Larsen [01:25:30] Well, you shall come visit, Carah. You need to come back, John. You need to come for the first time.

John Dehlin [01:25:34] All right. All right. John Larsen signing off. Until next time. Until you come back out of retirement a third or fourth time.

Carah Burrell [01:25:42] I know. What are you going to do with all your books?

John Larsen [01:25:44] You know, I've actually been packing them up. I was going to address that. They are. At one point I had 5,000 volumes, if you can imagine. And I boiled it down over to about 5, 600 that I have left. And to me they are some of the most important books historically, the original source documents and, and a lot of the best of Mormon history that's been written.

John Larsen [01:26:13] And they will go to a worthy home. I know that unfortunately, none of the universities keep a Mormon library. They cycle through their books and of course the church actively is trying to destroy them. But if somebody can make a pledge who wants them and can explain what they will do. Matter of fact, I'm going to call it. What I want is I want one of you will rich out there to establish a. A library of Mormonism before Mormonism, before Mormons erase it all. And I'll be gladly give you the donation of these books. But yes, I'm open to people making the case why they want the books and what they're going to do with them.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] All right. The John Larsen Library.

Carah Burrell [01:27:01] I got, I got a woman card. I just like them and I feel like Belle and Beauty and the Beast when I go to your house. Just, just books upon books. Keep in mind going in your basement.

John Larsen [01:27:11] I've been moving around with these books for 15 years. You gotta be careful what you're asking for because moving with books is not the funnest thing in the world. They're heavy, they're big, they have to be taken care of. So it's not as sexy as it sounds.

John Dehlin [01:27:25] So Rich Effers out there step up and buy John's books and start a library.

John Larsen [01:27:30] Well, I'll give them to whoever. I don't need any money for them.

John Dehlin [01:27:34] Make them pay like 20 grand a year. Right?

John Larsen [01:27:39] We'll see. Right now they're just going into some airtight, light proof cases. Yeah. And I'm taking them down.

John Dehlin [01:27:48] All right.

Carah Burrell [01:27:49] Memories like the corner.

John Dehlin [01:27:50] John Larsen. Seriously, we love you, brother. You're. You're an amazing soul. You're A big hearted, brilliant man and we're honored to know you. And we hope this isn't the last.

John Larsen [01:28:02] Thanks, guys.

John Dehlin [01:28:02] Do well.

John Larsen [01:28:04] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:28:05] All right, Carah, do you want to plug your stuff really quick?

Carah Burrell [01:28:10] My stuff is the Mormon history hoedown on any place that you listen to podcasts, especially on a YouTube channel which has hit 50,000 subscribers on my birthday on Saturday. So that was really nice. Thank you guys. I'm here in my new studio that some nice donors have helped me upgrade my equipment. So thank you to everybody who follows my stuff and shares it and gives good love. And I just put out a nice video reviewing the jubilee video that John was in and he did so good and all of us were so proud of you, John. So check out my channel for lots of different funny reviews, responses, all kinds of cool stuff and how do they

John Dehlin [01:28:48] get, how do they give you money? Most importantly,

Carah Burrell [01:28:52] by going to my donor box, Patreon and Venmo at Caribbee. And I'm sure you'll find the links if you really want to, because this is my new full time job because I started a 501c3 non profit, the nuance Hug Foundation. So I hope to be doing this forever. When people ask, like, what's your long term goals, Carah, you can be a little sexy influencer out there. No, I'm going to be podcasting and then I'll have a very sad goodbye to all of my friends and foes in 20 years when I start my farm. So this is where I'm going to be for a long time.

John Dehlin [01:29:28] John, what year did you start? John, what year did you start? Mormon expression.

John Larsen [01:29:32] 2009.

John Dehlin [01:29:33] Okay, so what's the math? Is that, is that, is that 15 years?

John Larsen [01:29:39] We did 2009 to 2014, so there's the five year run and then, so that's what, 14 years ago? 13 years ago. 14.

John Dehlin [01:29:48] Yeah, but that's, that's, is that 25 years or is that, is that 15 years? If you count 2009 to 2024, it

John Larsen [01:29:58] was, I think it was June of 2009. So this June will be 15 years. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:03] All right, well, I wouldn't, I think, I think our viewers and listeners would love if you're ever coming back here to Salt Lake to maybe have a party to meet you, to honor you and to celebrate you. So I'd be, I'd be honored to help make that happen. If you ever are interested, I'm going to put that out there as a possibility.

John Larsen [01:30:20] I'll tell you in all honesty, I'm believe it or not, I'm actually pretty shy, so those kind of parties can be overwhelming to me. But, you know, I would do my best to be gracious.

John Dehlin [01:30:31] All right. All right, we'll see. I'll just put that out there. All right, John, Love you, brother. Good luck, Carah. Thanks so much. And yeah, and thanks everyone for tuning in today to Mormon Stories Podcast. And I'm not going to do the regular plea today. I want you to go support John Larsen's endeavor and check out dabblerfarm.org and give him donations and help help him kickstart and grow what he's trying to do.

John Dehlin [01:31:01] Again, you can always check out Mormon Expression Podcast, the amazing library on Spotify, on itunes, anywhere you get your podcast episodes. There's so much good, rich content there. And of course, there's the Mormon Expression content on Mormon Stories you can get on the playlist. There's a John Larsen Mormon Expression playlist that you can find all of his episodes on Mormon Stories. Anyway, thanks again for joining us today.

John Dehlin [01:31:29] Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Check out dabblerfarm.org and NuanceHoe and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.