Introduction to the SUU Commencement Controversy

Guest [00:00:00] Foreign

John Dehlin [00:00:02] and welcome back to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. Today we have a very special edition of Mormon Stories podcast. This is sort of breaking news. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is March 21, 2023, and we are here to discuss the controversy around Southern Utah University's decision to, to invite Mormon Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland to speak at a, I believe, graduation ceremony coming up soon. And the, the student backlash and the community backlash that has resulted from this invitation. And we are here, I'm here with my, one of my partners in what I say is truth and righteousness, Gerardo Sumano. Hey, Gerardo, thanks for being here.

Gerardo Sumano [00:00:58] Yeah, thank you for having, having me.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] Yeah, my pleasure. And I'm really excited to say, most importantly that we're here with several students from Southern Utah University. We had many people reach out, including alumni. And we just decided that the only people that we wanted to try and have on today's episode were either people who are about to graduate, who would be affected by who, who for whom this would be their graduation ceremony, or other students that, that feel invested in the Southern Utah University community.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] So, so that's kind of what we're in store for. And I'll just kind of give you a little bit of what we're going to try and be doing today. I want to welcome everyone who's joined us on the live stream, either on YouTube or on Facebook. What we're going to do today is give a little bit of the backstory about what it is about Elder Holland and what he has done recently or in the past few years to, to make it so there would be this sort of backlash. Of course it has to do with his musket speech at BYU and his comments around Matt Easton, a gay valedictorian who, who gave a speech at BYU in a graduation ceremony, self identified as gay and, and Holland's President, Holland or Dr.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] Holland, however we want to refer to him today what, what Jeff Holland's comments were about, Matt, that play into the complexities of today's episode. So we're gonna, we're gonna talk about the background of, of Jeff Holland and why he's controversial. Then we're gonna talk about Southern Utah University and what were some of the steps and items in the timeline that led up to this controversy. We're going to talk about kind of what the reaction was and I believe yesterday the president of the university, if I have it right, had a multi hour listening session from students to hear feedback about the, this decision and to listen to concerns voiced by students.

John Dehlin [00:03:19] We're going to give a summary of that. Then we are going to talk. We're going to invite several current Southern Utah University students to share their concerns briefly in like a three minute or three or four minute clip as to why they feel strongly about this issue. And then, uh, we'll be ending maybe with, you know, next steps, call to action, so that, you know, people can know that if they want to participate or help raise their voices or participate in any way in, you know, whatever subsequent events will be over the next few days and weeks. We'll. We'll let you know what the calls to action are.

Welcoming the Panel of Students and Guests

John Dehlin [00:04:07] So without any further ado, I guess the way I want to start, I want to go ahead and for a second, bring on Kate and A.J. kate was, you know, one of several people that kind of helped. I. I would say Kate was one of the first people to reach out to me. And Kate and AJ have been very helpful in, in organizing some of this. And so let me just first start with bringing on Kate and AJ and ask them if there's anything they want to say at the outset or not before we. We jump in.

Kate [00:04:43] I'll just introduce myself. My name is Kate. I use she, her pronouns, and I'm Odge.

Guest 7 [00:04:50] I use anything interchangeably.

John Dehlin [00:04:53] Okay. And. And is there anything that y'.

Guest 2 [00:04:56] All.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] Y' all want to say before we kind of jump into the timeline just in terms of kind of setting up today's presentation? I. I do want to say that we all discussed as a group, you know, how we wanted to communicate today, what our intentions were. And, you know, Kate, do you. Do you want to voice those, or do you want me to kind of voice what we agreed on?

Kate [00:05:21] Do you want to talk about what

Guest 7 [00:05:23] we are like, Intentions?

Guest [00:05:26] Yeah.

Guest 7 [00:05:26] What we're doing? I think, like, our first thing is just that I'm both surprised and very happy that this has gotten the traction that it has. I think it's really important to make queer struggles noticed by people, by queer people, and also by allies. And I'm glad that we have allies here in, like, the chat today.

Guest 7 [00:05:51] I'm really glad that it's gotten the traction that it has. But I think with that, it is really important to everyone in this group that we do this with decorum and that we have immense respect for President Mindy Benson.

Guest 7 [00:06:06] And I think everyone here loves SUU and we wouldn't be this passionate if we didn't love being T birds and if we didn't have the sense of community that the school has created. It's obviously Like, a very appalling decision that has happened. But we all do have a lot of respect for this university and are happy to be here and are very happy that we have been given this platform to push it further and maybe help people in the future. And even though this kind of sucky thing has happened to us, that we can avoid similar devastations in our own university and hopefully in other universities.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] All right. Yeah. And I think one of the comments that one of the panelists made was we can't fight hate with hate, and so we're not going to be hateful in today's presentation. All right, so I think what we wanted to do was to begin by giving a little bit of the backstory, and we have invited Matt Easton to come on if he wants to participate, but he's not quite here yet. And we are going to have. We are going to have Brooke on to. To help talk us through a little bit of the backstory. But also, Gerardo, I think you're really well versed in the backstory, and we've got some video clips here to play that will help tell the story. So let's bring Brooke on, and between Brooke and Gerardo, you guys can give us some of the background.

Guest 3 [00:07:46] Sure.

Guest 4 [00:07:46] Okay.

Brooke [00:07:48] Hi, guys. I'm Brooke.

Guest 5 [00:07:49] I am a senior here at Southern Utah University, studying nutrition and chemistry. Before I head out east for PA School this fall, I just want to kind of introduce myself so you know who you're talking to. I guess we all know Gerardo. Is there anything else you want to say to introduce yourself, Gerardo?

Guest 6 [00:08:06] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:06] So I'm Gerardo. I co host Mormon Stories with John, and I'm. Yeah. So actually, when this talk by Elder Holland happened at byu, we. We jumped in and covered it with a lot of attention from our listeners, and we dissected his talk. And I've. I've been also involved with several other coverages of stuff that Elder Holland has been involved in. So, yeah, I'd be happy to help.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] And for viewers and listeners that don't know Gerardo's backstory, do you want to tell them just. Just in terms of 10 seconds, why this. Why this issue is personal to you?

Gerardo Sumano [00:08:46] Yeah. So I'm part of the LGBT community. I get served a mission, was raised Mormon in Mexico and eventually came to BYU Idaho, where I met my husband. And we actually got married while we were going to BYU Idaho. We didn't tell our parents, friends. Nobody really knew except a couple people until we graduated and we came out to our families. And, yeah, if you Want to watch that story and listen to it?

Guest 1 [00:09:18] It's.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:18] It's more mysterious episode.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] Okay, well, I've made it include that in the show notes. Okay. So, Brooke and Gerardo, how do we. How do we tell the backstory?

Guest 5 [00:09:29] I'll just jump into when the university got involved.

Guest 2 [00:09:33] Are you.

John Dehlin [00:09:34] Are you saying Southern Utah University?

Guest 5 [00:09:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:09:38] Why don't we have. If it's okay, Brooke, why don't we have Gerardo talk us through the Elder Holland backstory first as a. As a setup? So, Gerardo, do you want. Do you want to give us your. While we're waiting for Matt Easton to come on, do you want to give us a little bit of the background and maybe play some of the clips?

Guest 6 [00:09:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:55] Is that okay?

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:56] Yeah, I can do that.

Holland's History with LGBTQ Issues

John Dehlin [00:09:57] Okay, so let's. Let's go ahead and start there.

Gerardo Sumano [00:09:59] Yeah. So. Okay, so Elder Holland, as a lot of people probably know, a lot of our listeners know he's a beloved Mormon apostle, and he has had a little bit of history with dealing with the LGBT rhetoric in the church. He's given some general conference talks where he's alluded to being in support, or at least in belief of sexual orientation change efforts, such as one of the speeches where he famously said, come as you are. Really? When he was talking about sexual orientation, he said, come as you are, but don't expect to stay as you are, and a couple other, you know, references like that.

Gerardo Sumano [00:10:49] So he has been around some controversy with respect to LGBT issues, and most notably in 2020, BYU. Well, I think it's important to mention that Elder Holland has been sitting in the Board of Trustees as one of the. I think only three apostles, the whole First Presidency, and only three apostles are part of the Board of trustees of byu. And Elder Holland is one of those three apostles.

Tanner [00:11:19] And

Gerardo Sumano [00:11:21] so he has been overseeing what's been happening at BYU, as some people know, in 20 was a reversal of the homosexual policy, where, you know, for. For decades, it was part of the honor code policy that queer students could not hold hands or demonstrate affection towards people of the same gender. And so any kind of homosexual behavior was against the honor code, even if it was not necessarily sexual. Do you want to say something? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:56] Yeah. So, like, things that a. A straight couple could do at byu, like hold hands or kiss, was. Has been historically forbidden.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:05] Right.

Guest 3 [00:12:06] For.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] For gay couples, even if it still is within the. The guidelines of. Of what the Mormon Church calls the law of chastity. Right, right, right. Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:15] And when the church reversed the 2015 controversial LGBT policy, what followed was that BYU removed the homosexual policy in 2020 from its honor code. So that took a lot of LGBT students to believe that now they were able to have boyfriends and have romantic relationships and that that would be allowed by BYU as soon as they didn't have sexual relationships.

Gerardo Sumano [00:12:47] But as we know, two weeks after the reverse or the REMOV policy, there was an update where, you know, there was a letter sent by a general authority saying that this had been misunderstood by a lot of people and that basically any kind of homosexual romantic behavior was against BYU policies.

Gerardo Sumano [00:13:10] And following this, there was a lot of protests at byu, and I'm sure Elder Holland heard about all of this stuff going on, being one of the board of trustees, and there was protests going on, and then the COVID pandemic hit. And then in 2020, he came to BYU to speak to faculty and employees of BYU, and he gave a very passionate speech that, you know, became famous for the musket fire reference that he made. He made at least seven references to this musket fire rhetoric, a lot of war. War rhetoric. In this. In the speech, he called out a valedictorian and a, you know, a former valedictorian who had come out in their. In his graduation speech, and that's Matt

John Dehlin [00:14:00] Easton, who hopefully will be joining us soon.

Guest 7 [00:14:03] Right?

John Dehlin [00:14:03] Yeah.

Tanner [00:14:04] And.

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:04] And he also, you know, mentioned, you know, this phrase of musket fire in relation with defending the church's doctrine of the family between one man and one woman. And this was taken

Guest 2 [00:14:21] very

Gerardo Sumano [00:14:23] badly by a lot of people in the LGBT community. And I. I would want to point out, even include, including members, faithful LGBT members and also faithful members who are not part of the LGBT community, like Patrick Mason, Tom Christofferson. They both did a. A podcast where they called out this rhetoric and condemned it. So, yeah, he became famous, you know, Holland, because of that. In 2021.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] Yeah. And he. And he never apologized. Elder. Elder Oaks, the number two in command for the LDS Church, is on record saying, we neither seek nor offer apologies. And there's never. To this date, to this date, March 21, 2023, Elder Elder Holland has offered no explanation, no apology. And so, you know, following the church's own guidelines, you know, of repentance, assuming that he even feels like there's something to repent for, which is probably. We don't know. He certainly is not. He is not offered any public apology. Right, right. Should. Gerardo. Should we play some of these clips really quick just to provide the background?

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:39] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] Okay. Which clip should we play? The first slide. First yeah. Okay, so we're going to play the first slide. Do you want to tell us what's on this first clip?

Gerardo Sumano [00:15:46] So this is the reference he made to Matt Easton, the valedictor. Valedictorian, who had come out in his graduation speech.

John Dehlin [00:15:54] Okay, we'll. We'll roll the tape.

Guest 2 [00:16:00] If a student commandeers a graduation podium intended to represent everyone in getting diplomas that day in order to announce his personal sexual orientation, what might another speaker feel free to announce the next year until eventually anything goes? What might commencement come to mean or not mean? If we push individual license over institutional dignity for very long, do we simply end up with more divisiveness in our culture than we already have? And we already have far too much everywhere.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] Okay, so I want to invite Gerardo and then any panelists to just say, just really briefly, what they found concerning about what he just said. So, Gerardo, do you want to start?

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:01] Yeah. So there's definitely a power differential. You know, an apostle who is known worldwide for his position in the church, calling out this. You know, a BYU graduate whose speech had actually been approved by university officials and calling this out as. As, you know, hijacking. Definitely misrepresenting what actually happened, because Matt Easton did it in a. And he'll. He'll. He'll speak himself if he joins us. But he did it in a very faithful way.

Guest 3 [00:17:37] He.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:38] He said he was proud to be a gay son of God. And you know, this. So, yeah, this. This rhetoric that Elder Holland is advancing of because people decide to come out or talk about their sexual orientation, that it creates divisiveness. And, yeah, it's kind of.

Guest 2 [00:17:59] I.

Gerardo Sumano [00:17:59] To me, it's a little problematic.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] Okay, any. Any other quick panelists want to make a quick response? We have. We have Alexa raising her hand.

Guest 3 [00:18:13] I just want to speak to the irony of Dr. Holland saying that if a student is allowed to commandeer a commencement podium and speak their beliefs, what else will be allow? Commencement ceremonies are about student achievements. If a student would like to speak about their achievements and their background at their own commencement ceremony, I don't see how that's a problem. Like, the commencement ceremony is about them.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you, Alexa. Any. Anyone else have us just raise your hand if you want, and then Gerardo can see you. Anybody else have a quick comment they want to make? No pressure? Is that odds raising their hand? Okay.

Brooke [00:19:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] Okay.

Guest 7 [00:19:07] One of the things that he talks about like, that the commencement is supposed to be for everybody. Why should this guy be talking about how he's gay? Is very exclusionary, kind of in a retroactive way, that saying it cannot be for everyone if it is queer, which implies that being CIS and heterosexual is for everyone. And that is very heteronormative and I think very harming to people and very othering and exclusionary. And it's also like saying that you shouldn't be talking about sexuality at all, period, when you're really only referring to homosexuality. Like Holland and many other church speakers often talk about their wives.

Guest 7 [00:19:59] If you can't talk about sexuality but you're married to a woman, that is implying that you are, or at least pretending to be attracted to a woman and probably straight, which is a show of sexuality. And so I think there is that very intense heteronormativity and exclusionary parts as well. And obviously, as we talked about, as Electa's talked about, with the power indifference, incredibly inappropriate to say that about like an 18 year old.

John Dehlin [00:20:29] Thank you, A.J. powerful. Was. Was there one other.

Gerardo Sumano [00:20:33] Dallin is raising his.

John Dehlin [00:20:34] Okay, Dallin, you have to unmute yourself down.

Guest 2 [00:20:39] Sorry.

Guest 3 [00:20:39] Yes. Something else I just think is important to note is sort of the mixed messaging that Elder Holland is bringing into this, because on one hand, the church is saying, you know, gay people belong in a church. We want you here. But then on the other hand, there's messages from the leaders, top down, that are saying you're not allowed to say that you're gay in a BYU commencement speech. And so I think it's important to know, like, what are Elder Holland's intentions by bringing this up, and what is it that he really wants, and what is he really saying about our presence here in the church?

John Dehlin [00:21:08] Thank you, Dallin. That's. That's really valuable. Okay, any other quick comments about that first clip? All right, I don't see any hands. So, Gerardo, should we go to the next clip?

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:20] Okay. Do you want to set it up? What's this next clip?

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:23] So this one is one of the seven references, and we're going to show just two of them to the musket fire rhetoric.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] Okay, so this is a clip about Holland's musket fire rhetoric, is that right? Yes, this is probably the most problematic part.

Gerardo Sumano [00:21:38] One of them.

John Dehlin [00:21:39] Okay. All right,

The Musket Fire Speech Examined

Guest 2 [00:21:43] I'd like to hear a little more musket fire from the Temple of Learning. He said this in a way that could have applied to a host of topics in various departments, but the one he specifically mentioned was the doctrine of the family and defending marriage as the union of a man and a woman. Little did he know that While many would hear his appeal, especially the school of family life, who moved quickly and visibly to assist, some others fired their muskets. All right. But unfortunately didn't always aim at those hostile to the church. We thought a couple of stray rounds even went north of the point of the mountain. My beloved brothers and sisters, a house divided against itself cannot stand.

John Dehlin [00:22:32] Yeah. House divided against itself in more ways than one. Gerardo, do you want to give a quick reaction to what you. Why you chose that clip?

Gerardo Sumano [00:22:40] Yeah. That's when he. He's specifically using this musket fire reference and applying it to the doctrine defending the church's doctrine of the family being marriage between a man and a woman. He's saying musket fire. We could use this rhetoric with a lot different topics, but the one I'm going to be using, or Elder Oaks, because he's quoting Elder Oaks, decided to use, is regarding the family. And I mean, that's implying anything that's not marriage between a man and a woman and defending the church against that. So, yeah, I mean, I think it was Patrick Mason who. Who said that the LGBT community is a community that has experienced real violence, and this type of violence, whether it's the Pulse nightclub. Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:36] Or the. The shootings in Colorado.

Gerardo Sumano [00:23:39] Right. The one that. The shooting that just happened recently, a few months ago, ironically, by someone that was raised Mormon, probably. Yeah. So it is. It is problematic that he's using this kind of rhetoric.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] Okay. I want to invite other members of the panel.

Guest 4 [00:24:00] We.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] I just see Maddie just joined us. I want to. Let me just take a second to. To welcome Matt Easton to. To the chat. Hey, Matt, go ahead and talk. Let's make sure your microphone's working, okay?

Guest 7 [00:24:13] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:24:13] Hey, everyone.

Guest 4 [00:24:14] How's it going? Can you hear me?

John Dehlin [00:24:15] Yeah. Hi, Matt. Thanks for joining us.

Guest 4 [00:24:17] Thank you for having me. Sorry I'm a little late, but.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] Oh, no worries. We're just thrilled you joined us. So, Matt, we. We just to give you a heads up, we. We were just doing the introduction right now of Holland's. Holland's Musket Talk, and we've already played the clip where he kind of denounces you as commandeering the podium, and then we played the first musket fire clip, so maybe it would make sense to go ahead and invite you to. Just.

John Dehlin [00:24:49] To just share. And it's hard because you haven't heard any of the background, but we basically tried to describe a little bit of the background, but if you want to take just a minute or two to just talk about what it was about your experience in Eller Holland's previous talks and, you know, your life experience that, that, you know, how that was for you to have him speak that way. We have a whole Mormon Stories episode about it, but also to what extent that made this issue at Southern University, Southern Utah University, kind of call to your attention more. So let's just give you a minute or two to kind of introduce yourself and to just share a little perspective about Holland and how. How this is called to your attention, the SUU thing.

Guest 4 [00:25:41] Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. I would highly recommend, if anyone's listening and hasn't had a chance to listen to my Mormon story with, with John and a couple other people, I had a great experience doing it, so I definitely recommend that.

Guest 4 [00:25:57] But. But yeah, as. As John said, I'm the. The student that gave a speech at graduation at BYU and came out during my speech. And two years later, Elder Holland gave that musket speech and called me out saying what I did was kind of selfish and took away from the ceremony, which definitely, I have to say that critique, I still feel is not super accurate, particularly because I got approval and also because I think that the message of the. The speech was quite appropriate for the setting. But I do have to say, yeah, my experience once Elder Holland called me out during my graduation speech is, you know, I had a lot of people really picking apart my decisions and what I said and why I said it at graduation.

Guest 4 [00:26:47] And so in some ways, hearing that, Elder Holland gets a chance to also give a graduation speech and also that people are. Are giving him the same treatment that he gave me. In many ways, where we say, okay, well, we want to think about what are the things that you would say. What are you standing for when you get up on that podium? You know, I think turnabouts kind of fair play to. To Mr. Holland, I would say this is.

Guest 4 [00:27:14] I think that it's fair that people are. Are upset and that they're questioning what he would say and, and why he would say it and whether or not we want that. You know, I studied political science. I'm a big believer of free speech and all those sorts of things. But I do think this situation is a little bit different because, you know, Mr. Holland used his free speech to give that musket talk, use that free speech to critique the way that people give graduation speeches. And these are the consequences, you know, And I do believe that having him give a speech at graduation, it does in many ways, I think, show that the university supports what he said in that message.

Guest 4 [00:27:53] And, you know, I understand that people give talks all the time in different venues and situations where they might not align or agree with 100% the values of that institution they're speaking at. But Elder Holland made it very, very clear about how he feels about graduations in particular and the LGBTQ community. And so I think it's very safe to. To extrapolate those meetings and to see that the university is standing for those by letting somebody like Jeff speak at graduation.

Guest 4 [00:28:26] So I will say, yeah, Overall, when I heard he was speaking at graduation at suu, part of me didn't believe it. I was like, really? Why is this guy still so involved in graduation speeches? Like, there are a lot of really awesome rhetoricians in the LDS church. A lot of, you know, all of them are very experienced in giving talks. It feels a little bit pointed that it would be Jeffrey Holland. And in some ways, I wonder if maybe it's an effort for the church and that team to kind of clean up their PR or reclaim this narrative of Holland and graduations in particular.

Guest 4 [00:29:04] I don't know. But I think that it is upsetting for me, at least, as somebody who has been in those same shoes of speaking at graduation and standing up for marginalized communities like my own, to then give that same podium to somebody who has kind of spit it back in our faces. I think it definitely hurts. And, you know, I'm concerned for the queer students on campus.

Guest 4 [00:29:30] My little sister and her husband are actually both SUU students. So my little sister, she's the one that told me about this. First of all, she's the one that broke the news, and she's really upset. You know, she's. She's quite active lds. She was just married in the temple in January, so she's not apostate by. By any sense of the word. And even she understood that. That this makes other queer or this makes queer students on her campus feel unsafe and feel that. That their community would allow somebody like Jeffrey Holland to get up on the stage and make similar claims or to speak about similar things.

Guest 4 [00:30:08] You know, he. Jeffrey Holland, he. He gave the feedback in his speech to me that. That it is undignified and wrong to make a commencement speech all about yourself, which I think is a little funny, because how else do you do we speak other than drawing on our own experiences? But by his same logic, I really don't see what he could be speaking about. You know, what. What topics does he have credibility to talk about that don't also draw upon his own experiences and his own perspectives?

Guest 5 [00:30:39] So.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] Right.

Guest 4 [00:30:40] Yeah. I've gone on a little bit already, but that's sort of.

John Dehlin [00:30:43] Matt, let me just ask you one quick question before we get back to the timeline and then we want to have you feel free to jump in. Throughout the entire presentation. I just want to ask you, after Holland gave his musket fire talk, after he denounced you, after there was such a public uproar and backlash, did he make. Are you, are you able or comfortable sharing if he made any attempt to reach out to you to apologize, to try and mend fences, to, to show care. Concern for how you may have been affected by his comments? Did, did any of that happen or are you able or comfortable sharing if it did or didn't?

Guest 4 [00:31:23] Yeah, yeah, I can share. He made no effort to reach out to me. I, I wrote him private letter. A private letter. Excuse me. I also wrote like an open letter in the Salt Lake Tribune. So I definitely reached out to him asking for clarification or possibly to, you know, make amends. I will say my father, who's an active member in the church, he wrote to Elder Holland and Elder Holland did reply to my father and he apologized for hurting my parents feelings and admonished them to continue actively paying tithing and, and to continue, you know, in their activities in the church, which.

Guest 4 [00:32:09] It hurt me, I'm not gonna lie. It hurt me because, you know, why would he apologize to my dad and not to myself, you know, and, and furthermore, you know, my dad, he actually didn't tell me about this. I only found out several months later through my siblings. And, and I think that just speaks to how he really wasn't, I think apologize. He wasn't, he didn't feel bad about how he made me feel, or at least I don't think he did. And he was more concerned about losing active tithing paying members.

John Dehlin [00:32:40] I mean, I'm just, I'm, I'm never speechless and I'm a little bit, I'm a little, a little bit speechless. I'm so sorry, Matt. That would just feel awful. I'm so sorry. Yeah. Okay. Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:32:56] Well, we have the Nathan. I, I, I forgot his last name. He was recently Mormon stories where he.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] Oh, Nate Bird.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:06] Yes. He talked about a recording where Brat Wilcox received a call from Aler Holland. Well, Elder Holland sympathized with brother Wilcox and told him basically, I feel bad that people are treating you the same way they treated me. They just don't understand. We're like Paul and people just, you know, from the Bible.

John Dehlin [00:33:33] So he felt persecuted, right? Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:33:36] So he doesn't feel bad about it. That's my point.

Brooke [00:33:38] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Okay.

Tanner [00:33:39] All right.

Guest 6 [00:33:39] Well.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] Well, we're definitely not trying to bash. Honestly, we're not trying to bash the church or Holland. We are trying to report what happened. And Matt, I think it's legitimate for you to share your experiences and share how you feel. We asked the panel if they were okay with you joining, and they were. So. So, Matt, so far, it's been super valuable. Thank you so much for being here and for chiming in. Let's. Let's go ahead and go to the. Maybe the third clip. Gerardo, does that. Does that sound right?

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:34:06] Do you want to set this clip up?

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:09] This is just one more reference for Musket Fire. Thought maybe two would do.

John Dehlin [00:34:15] Okay, so we'll go ahead and play the. The fun. The final clip, and then I do want to get back to the panelists. One thing I didn't have the panelists do is respond to the musket fire talk. This is another Musket Fire and to share why. So what we'll do is we'll play the final clip and then we'll open it up to the panel to discuss their reactions to Holland's Musket Fire comments. Is that okay?

Gerardo Sumano [00:34:41] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:34:41] All right, let's do it.

Guest 2 [00:34:44] Sensitive, demanding balance in our lives. Musket fire. Yes, we will always need defenders of the faith, but friendly fire is a tragedy. From time to time, the church, its leaders, and some of our colleagues within the university community have taken such fire on this campus. And sometimes it isn't. Friendly wounding students and the parents of students, so many who are confused about what so much recent flag waving and parade holding on this issue means. My beloved friends, this kind of confusion and conflict ought not to be. Not here.

Student Reactions to Holland's Rhetoric

John Dehlin [00:35:42] Okay, let's invite panelists, students of Southern Utah University, to reflect on both those final two clips in terms of whatever they want to say about Elder Holland's comments that. That they find troubling. And we'll just have them raise their hand and then Gerardo will. Will put them on the screen and he'll. We'll ask you to unmute your mics as you talk. So I guess it's Hannah first.

Guest 4 [00:36:10] I remember when the whole Musket Fire talk happened, and I remember being like, thank God I'm not at byu. And then I chose SU because it's so much more accepting. And then now we're here. So

John Dehlin [00:36:25] thank you, Hannah. That's. That's sobering. Okay, next comments. Just raise your hand if. If anybody else wants to okay, so we have A.J. go ahead, A.J.

Guest 7 [00:36:41] i have a couple of comments, but I also wanted to ask a question to you or some other panelists because I read through this talk while preparing a speech for the president of our university. We'll get into that later.

Tanner [00:36:55] But.

Guest 7 [00:36:57] And hearing everything about it, when he talks about friendly fire, and I guess I'm just a little confused on what he meant by friendly fire. If anyone has some better insights, what I have interpreted that as is don't come back and fight the church. And a far more aggressive version of the doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith kind of thing. And, like, you know, don't just go out and support the gay people, because then you're firing back at the church. But if anyone has other thoughts on what they think that means, I would be interested in that. And then I have some other comments as well later.

John Dehlin [00:37:41] I mean, I'll. I'll let Gerardo and. Or Matt speak first. I obviously have thoughts and feelings about that, but, Gerardo, why don't you go first? Or. Or Matt or any other panelists?

Guest 3 [00:37:52] Sure.

Gerardo Sumano [00:37:52] I. I mean that. I think that's exactly what it means. I mean, I. I think they. The brethren were taken back by how much support for the LGBT community was at byu, Right.

John Dehlin [00:38:06] By who? Who at byu?

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:08] By faithful believing Latter Day Saints who were students at BYU and professors and, you know, members of the community, bishops. You know, that's friendly fire. That's people who are supposed to be, you know, listening to the apostles, but they're here saying, no, we. We ought to support. Or LGBT family members and community members.

John Dehlin [00:38:38] I mean, there's clearly a ton of. Of BYU faculty who are LGBTQ affirming and some of them outspoken. We know that because just in the past three to six months, the church has been purging. They changed their policy on, you know, temple recommends and church employees and BYU

Gerardo Sumano [00:38:56] faculty, which Holland is probably responsible. Responsible for in the at least part being one of the board of trustees of byu.

John Dehlin [00:39:05] Yeah. So they've been purging BYU faculty that are LGBTQ affirming. There are, you know, people like maybe Patrick Mason or Ben Benjamin park and many, many others. Jenner Reese, like, there's a lot of progressive Mormons, even Tom Kristofferson, you know, who are faithful believing progressive Mormons who are critical of the church's LGBTQ policies. So it's BYU faculty, BYU staff, BYU students, and. And many scholars and. Or spokespeople and progressive members. Matt, do you want to add anything to. To what Gerardo and I said in response to a question about friendly fire.

Guest 4 [00:39:53] Yeah, I think Hardy hit it right on the head. Just reminds me of the anecdote that the elder Holland talks about in that same speech where he got a letter from a mom of a prospective student.

Guest 3 [00:40:05] I think.

Guest 4 [00:40:06] Or maybe the student was already there and how she was so tearful and confused because, you know, she's walking on campus and saw rainbows and it wasn't the community she remembered and the value she remembered. And I mean, to me, I guess that's the friendly fire he's referring to, that we're hurting our own community by, like, challenging these values. But I just keep coming back to this idea that, yes, I understand that it's difficult for conservative people to see that, you know, they no longer can be openly homophobic or that we have to create spaces now that are, that are welcoming to people who don't fit into, like, binary norms.

Guest 4 [00:40:47] And that can be hard. But the alternative is that people who don't fit in, who need that help and support, who need to see those rainbows, that we're not getting any sort of support at all. And that the alternative is that so many of us are dying by suicide and are living our lives so unhappily and so depressed and full of so much inner turmoil that doesn't need to be there. And so, I don't know, it's hard for me to buy into this idea of like friendly fire and musket fire and that do we really need to fight back against, you know, these people who were just trying to survive?

Guest 4 [00:41:26] And, and, but I, but I think that that's what Holland was referring to in, in the talk. Is that signaling anything that might be misconstrued as, as like progressive or liberal or, or open minded is, is like attacking and hurting the church, which it doesn't have to be. I think that there is a reality that a world that exists in which you can have rainbows and that it supports and strengthens a community. So, yeah, that was my perception of what he meant by that.

John Dehlin [00:41:56] Love it. Thanks, Matt. We've got a hand raised by Brooke. Let's switch to Brooke and make sure. Yeah, go ahead, Brooke.

Guest 5 [00:42:06] I think something that's interesting with his friendly fire comment is that he's setting us versus them. You know, you're either in the church or you're shooting at the church. And that's at least to me, that's not at all what this is about. You know, this is about, you know, trying to build a space where we can all exist together. But how are we going to do that with guns?

Guest 5 [00:42:24] And when he's saying, like, you know, turning your muskets for friendly fire, you know, if he's giving every person in the church a metaphorical musket, then for there to be friendly fire, that means people from the church are leaving, you know, to oppose the church on this issue.

Guest 5 [00:42:40] And kind of the scary thing is he's saying, then there's going to be friendly fire, saying, like, if you, as an ally, leave, leave his opinions and go and try and support the LGBTQ community, you are now also opening yourself up to musket fire.

Guest 5 [00:42:54] And I think that's scary that he's not, like, it's awful and it's terrible that he's, you know, we're aiming muskets at anybody, but that he's opening it up to say, you know, if you don't agree with the way that I believe this, you are now also, you know, opening yourself up to musket fire.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] All right, beautiful. Thank you, Brooke. Alexa is raising. Wait, is Tanner. Is Tanner raising? Okay, go ahead, Alexa.

Guest 3 [00:43:20] In response to. I think a lot of people, both current Mormons and non Mormons, are claiming that Dr. Holland was not aware or doesn't understand how this rhetoric can be construed as violent when you're talking about guns.

Guest 2 [00:43:40] 2.

Guest 3 [00:43:41] He has a PhD from Yale. Like, I. I do not think that we can assume that this man does not understand the full weight of his words. He's not dumb. He is a smart man. And I think that he should be held accountable to that level of intelligence.

John Dehlin [00:43:59] Yeah. And power and privilege as well, you know, as a. Especially as a special witness for Jesus Christ, which is what Mormon apostles claim to be. And if Jesus is the Prince of Peace, many say there's just no room for any gun rhetoric ever, by a representative of the Prince of Peace. Okay. No. We have Brooke. Is that Brooke? And then Odge.

Guest 5 [00:44:25] I was just gonna say that Robbie and Mikey have something to say.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] Oh, let's do Robbie and Mikey first.

Brooke [00:44:31] Hi.

Guest [00:44:31] It's just Robbie for this.

John Dehlin [00:44:33] Okay, Robbie.

Guest [00:44:34] I wanted to bring up something that I think is important and that I've heard a lot of members in my own family say that the musket fire was a metaphor and that it shouldn't be taken the way that we're taking it and literally. And to that, I. I kind of just want to bring up chronologically what happened immediately after he gave this talk. Is. There were lots. There was a hate crime, basically, on BYU campus, where someone was like saying slurs to queer students on campus. And I think it's important to remember that his words have power and continue to have power. And this violent rhetoric, even if he. I'd love to give him the benefit of the doubt, but at this point, it seems that that rhetoric has consequences. Consequences.

John Dehlin [00:45:19] Thank you, Robbie.

Guest 7 [00:45:24] I really liked the little blip of my speech that I wrote on this musket fire, so I just wanted to read that little paragraph, if that's okay with you, John.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] Sure.

Guest 7 [00:45:34] Awesome. Statistically, queer people are far more likely to be the victims of crime than to be the perpetrators. But he cast us as the enemy. And how did he say it? There are a lot of metaphors that he could have used for defense. He could have talked about a wall or a fortress, maybe a watchtower. He could have talked about a moat to keep us out or a barricade we couldn't cross. All of these are exclusionary and cruel, but at least they would have been non violent. But which one did Elder Holland choose? Musket fire. He chose his metaphor. Guns and bullets and death. And this is a man who gives speeches for a living.

Guest 7 [00:46:12] So let's show him at least enough respect to admit that he knows how to say what he means. He doesn't matter if you personally do not interpret that speech as a violent call to arms, because many other people did, and their campuses are a more dangerous place now because of it.

John Dehlin [00:46:31] Powerful. Wow. Thanks, A.J. ronaldo.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:35] That's great.

John Dehlin [00:46:36] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:46:36] Great.

John Dehlin [00:46:37] Okay. All right, so really quickly, we should probably go on to the Southern Utah University part of this. Any final, really, really critical contributions before we jump to how. How this relates to Southern Utah University. Are we good? Okay, so now what I'd like to do is bring on Brooke, and Brooke, if you can, tell us how it kind of is, that you have a little bit of an inside view of, you know, the. The SUU part of the story, and then maybe narrate for us, you know, what you. What you're able to share about the SUU backstory leading up to the controversy.

Brooke [00:47:19] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:47:20] So I have been a student activist here at SUU the whole time that I've been here. I helped with. I don't know if you guys did any coverage on it, but for in September, the Black Menaces and Reap worked together to have a large protest just to fight for equality in education.

Guest 5 [00:47:39] And starting there, I've kind of taken a very active role in fighting for a place for our queer siblings here on campus. So when I heard that Elder Holland was going to be speaking at commencement. That was kind of mama bear mode turned on and so some of my friends got together, we started group chat. One of my close friends started the petition.

Guest 5 [00:48:04] So really close with people in the CDI and the Q Center. Those are our safe places on campus. So just just involved in the advocacy work here. So through this week, I just kind of set up a timeline that I want to take you guys through before we start more on the conversation so you guys can kind of recognize what we're referencing now that we all kind of know who Dr. Holland is.

Announcement of Holland as SUU Commencement Speaker

Guest 5 [00:48:30] So on Thursday, the university made the announcement that Dr. Holland would be speaking at our commencement this April. And I just want to read the official address that the university gave for that. So they said we are delighted.

John Dehlin [00:48:46] March, what? March 17th or March 18th around then?

Guest 1 [00:48:50] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:48:50] So this was released on March 16th, Thursday, March 16th 23. Thank you so President Mindy Benson said, we are delighted to welcome Elder Holland as our commencement speaker this year. His Southern Utah roots and dedication to education and learning are timely as we wrap up our 125th anniversary year. His address will offer inspiration to our graduates and to embrace lifelong learning and give back to their community as they leave SUU and continue to build their lives. Elder Holland was ordained a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints in 1994.

Guest 5 [00:49:31] At the time of this call, he was serving as a member of the first quorum of the 70. Prior to his full time service with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Elder Hollins served as the ninth President of Brigham Young University Church, Commissioner of Education and Dean of the College of Religious Education at byu. He also served as President of the American association of Presidents of Independent Colleges and Universities, a Board member of the national association of Independent Colleges and Universities, and a member of the National Collegiate Athletic Association's President's Commission. For his work in improving understanding between between Christians and Jews, he was given the Torch of Liberty Award by the Anti Defamation League.

Guest 5 [00:50:11] He also served on the governing board of a number of civic and business related corporations and is the author of 16 books, two of which he co authored with his wife Patricia. Born and raised in St. George, Utah, which is like 60 miles south of our campus, Elder Holland was a student leader and varsity athlete in high school, school and college. He earned a Bachelor's degree in English and a Master's degree in a Religious Education from BYU and a Master's and Doctor of Philosophy degree in American Studies from Yale University.

Guest 5 [00:50:45] Along with Holland SUU President Mindy Benson and representatives from the Class of 2023 will speak at the event on Friday, April 28, 2023. So that is what we all got Thursday morning. As you can believe, there were some people that were pretty upset about that. So Thursday, just a couple hours after the announcement, a petition was started by a student here at suu and the comments started to roll in. You know, within hours, there were hundreds of comments stating their distress, stating how they disagreed with the decision that was made.

Guest 5 [00:51:29] And by the end of that day, there were already 5,000 signatures on the petition. Another thing to note is that President Mindy Benson was away. She was not in Cedar City when this announcement was made. She was actually at a WAC conference supporting our women's basketball team.

Guest 5 [00:51:48] And one of the students there came and they spoke yesterday and they said that, you know, as soon as it was released, a bunch of the queer students who were on this trip, you know, got together in the lobby and were like, what in the world is happening? Like, what is going on? Why did this happen? You know, and what can we do about it? And Mindy, our president, you know, sought them out and came to talk to them and was like, hey, like, what are you feeling? And how can I help? Like, what can we do about. About this? And that is where students suggested a listening session.

The Student Petition and Campus Response

John Dehlin [00:52:20] Hey, Brooke, can I ask a quick question?

Brooke [00:52:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] You've already kind of mentioned this, but I just want to really solidify it for those who don't even know Utah geography. Where is Southern Utah University and how big is it? And is there anything you want to say just to describe Southern Utah University so that people kind of know a little bit about your school?

Guest 5 [00:52:41] Yeah. Okay, so Southern Utah University. We are in Cedar City, Utah. So in the announcement, it said that other Holland was from St. George. That's like 60 miles away from here, further south. We, most of you probably know where BYU is because there's a lot of hot talk around that. We're about three hours south of BYU and we are from a really. Like, there's the college. And then surrounding us, it's just rural space. Like, the college is about all that this town has as a university. There are 14,000 students, I think that's including in person and online students. So a pretty small university, whereas public university. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] Okay.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:27] Yeah, I was just going to mention that it's public and. But you already sent it, right?

John Dehlin [00:53:32] Okay. Okay. So it's not owned by the Mormon Church.

Guest [00:53:34] Right.

Gerardo Sumano [00:53:35] Or privately.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] Okay, okay. Or privately.

Guest 6 [00:53:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:38] Okay, Keep going. Brooke?

Guest 7 [00:53:39] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:53:40] Okay. So that was. So that was Thursday. The announcement was made, the petition was started. Mindy Benson, you know, sought out students and asked, like, what can I do about this? And they suggested the listening session. By the end of that day, there were already 5,000 signatures.

Guest 5 [00:53:57] So then Friday, the university made a public announcement saying that Monday we would be hosting the listening sessions. And the petition continued to circulate. Of course, at this time there were like anti petitions to the petition or there, you know, people that opposed our work were starting to kind of gather themselves together and also continue to write open letters. I think Thursday we also got our first news article, or maybe it was Saturday by the trip. But then by the end of that day, there were 10,000 petition signatures.

Guest 5 [00:54:34] We were starting to gain some traction. And then Saturday and Sunday, that's when we got multiple news articles. That's when we started talking with you guys and other, you know, people with a larger platform about what was going on.

Guest 5 [00:54:48] And still nothing from the school, school on any changes they were going to make. And then by the end of Sunday night, there were 14,000 signatures.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] Brooke, can I ask you one, one question about the signatures? I think it's probably like one thing that I was trying to figure out is people. I mean, my DMs just started blowing up as soon as this announcement happened, obviously by SUU students and alumni. It's fair to say that this petition tool has no way of distinguishing or differentiating between SUU students and alum and just like the broader concerned community. And it's not that I'm trying to devalue those number of signatures, but it's probably. Is there any way to even estimate what percentage of those 15,000 by Sunday night or whatever were actually students and or alumni from suu or is it. Is it impossible to even know?

Guest 5 [00:55:50] I don't think there's a way to get like hard numbers on that. However, if you, if anyone goes to the petition, a lot of people who have signed have been able to leave like a comment and their name.

Guest 5 [00:56:02] So there have been numerous times AJ could probably tell you more about it. She did a lot of digging through the comments, but just to say, see, like, the sheer number of faculty and staff, you know, that you can recognize by name. But there wasn't any way to say, like, are you a student? But it is also important to notice that, like, while the signatures may not all be, you know, 14,000 students who are signing this, you know, these are students, alumni sponsors, community members, and families of prospective students. You know, like this isn't just about people who are at SUU or who have been to suu. Like, these are people who are wanting to come to SUU who are also sharing their support in this cause.

John Dehlin [00:56:38] And I guess it's also fair to state there's probably a lot of Utah taxpayers who fund Southern Utah University, you know, because, you know, if you're Utahn, you help pay for Southern Utah University, so you probably have a right to speak. Is that fair to say?

Guest 5 [00:56:54] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:56:55] All right.

Brooke [00:56:56] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:56:56] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:56:57] Keep.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] Keep going, bro. Thank you.

Brooke [00:56:59] Yeah.

Guest 5 [00:56:59] So that was kind of the end of the weekend. And then Sunday night, someone announced that there would be. Mindy Benson, our. Our president, would be hosting a cabinet meeting Monday morning at 9am so Monday morning, there was a group of. I don't know how many of us. There were maybe 30 or 40 students that showed up to that open cabinet meeting. And it was.

Guest 5 [00:57:23] It was heavy. It was emotional, but it was also beautiful. Like, I don't want to discount the love and the care that I think each person that showed up felt. You know, we came, and we were all in our rainbow pins, and we all had our posters, and Mindy brought us breakfast. You know, she had donuts and waters ready because she knew that we were coming.

Guest 5 [00:57:43] And we had the provost there, and he opened up his office, and he was like, do you have any questions? You know, do you want to, you know, come visit my office? Come see this. Like, please don't be a stranger. And each member of the. The board, before their meeting, each member of her cabinet was out there, and they were talking with students, and it really was just a beautiful conversation.

Guest 5 [00:58:06] And so then they went in. They had their meeting. They were mostly talking, you know, dollars and cents and numbers, and we kind of stayed outside. They left both doors open out of respect for us so that we could stay involved.

Guest 5 [00:58:18] And then after only maybe 20 minutes, they ended their agenda, and Mindy walked out, and she said, now, you know, we've had our meeting. We're done, and we want you all to come in here, and we want to listen to you.

Guest 5 [00:58:31] And so everyone. Everyone packed into this little conference room, and we talked with Mindy, and we got to ask questions, and we got some pretty hard answers, some tough pills to swallow, but we just talked.

Guest [00:58:45] And.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:46] Can you just talk, Brooke, about what? Things were hard to hear if.

John Dehlin [00:58:52] If she. If you can.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:53] If you're allowed.

John Dehlin [00:58:54] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [00:58:55] And were you going to say something else, John?

John Dehlin [00:58:57] No, I want to. I want to say something right before we talk about the open meeting, but if this is meetings behind the scenes, let's have.

Kate [00:59:04] Let's.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] Let's go ahead and let Brooke finish. So.

Guest 5 [00:59:06] Okay. And I'll make sure that I pause before we get to the open meetings.

Meetings with University President and Administration

Guest 2 [00:59:11] So.

Guest 5 [00:59:11] Yeah, a couple of things that were said when we got in there. Mindy prefaced the meeting, and she said, you know, I'm not here to defend anything that has happened. I just want to hear what you're saying. And she was like, I know that we're having a listening meeting, you know, later this afternoon, but I just. I just want to hear, you know, and I want to have a conversation if you want to, but I'm. I'm just here to listen. And she was very, very open and explicit about just being there to listen, and I think she and her cabinet all did a really good job of that.

Guest 5 [00:59:42] But we asked some pretty hard questions, and I think some of us were disappointed by some of the answers. Some questions. One of the first questions that was asked was, you know, like, did you not know what was going on? You know, like, did you not know that Elder Holland is a controversial topic right now? Do you not know that this could make some of your students feel unsafe?

Guest 5 [01:00:06] And it was kind of hard for her to hear. It's hard for me to hear that. She said, like, we knew that there would be controversy with this decision,

Guest 6 [01:00:14] but

Guest 5 [01:00:15] they made it anyways. And it was also, you know, then we asked her, like, what is the process then? You know, like, who is it that is making this decision? Because as students, none of us knew. You know, usually the commencement speakers just announced, and a small handful of people are upset, but most everybody's, you know, not happy about it, but they're fine with it, you know, but we're like, okay, like, who actually makes this decision? You know, and. And how in the world can we stop this from ever happening again anyways? And she said that it's. It's state policy. There are three people on a board, her plus two other people.

Guest 5 [01:00:53] And they look at the honorary doctoral people who hold honorary degrees at suu, and they just pick from that list. So it's. It's three people. Three people get to make this decision for commencement. And we kind of were like, well, how are you going to change that? You know? And she was like, well, you know, we could maybe do this. We can use that. And she didn't really give, like, a hard, fast answer. She was like, well, it's policy that we do this, and it's policy that we do that.

Guest 5 [01:01:25] And so that was Kind of hard to hear too, that, like, there was. There was no one involved, you know, not that there weren't. Like, it was hard that there were no members of the LGBTQIA community that could make that decision, no members of any other intersectional group who could make that decision, but there were also no students who were asked to make that decision anyway. So those are probably the two. The two hardest things for. To hear that one, like, it's. It was completely policy. It was up to these three older school administrators to make this decision, and students were not consulted. And that. And the. The board knew that there would be controversy, and they still chose this speaker.

John Dehlin [01:02:10] Okay, really, really, really quick, quickly. Do we know anything about. Is it Susie Benson? Is that her? Is that her name?

Guest 5 [01:02:21] Mindy Benson?

John Dehlin [01:02:22] Okay, sorry, excuse me. Do we know anything about Mindy Benson's background, her profession, her qualifications, and her membership or non. Membership in the church or her activity versus non activity status? And I'm not trying to shame or, or anything. I'm just curious just from a, From a demographic standpoint, if we know anything about her background.

Guest 5 [01:02:47] Yeah, I know a little bit about her background, but if there are any other students that would like to share about her background, I would love some more input. But she has spent her career as an event planner. She's from Cedar City. She went to suu. She's. I believe she's also legacy. So her family has gone to seu. She's now at seu. And she has been a major ally at the school of.

John Dehlin [01:03:14] Ally of who?

Guest 5 [01:03:15] An ally of the LGBTQIA community.

John Dehlin [01:03:17] Okay.

Guest 5 [01:03:19] the school. So this is her first year as our president. She served as interim president and then was appointed as our president at the beginning of this year. And I think, think I, like, generally the student body has been very, very proud and very, very pleased with everything that she's done for the university. If any other students want to chime in on that, but up until this weekend, I had never heard a negative word about Mindy Benson.

Gerardo Sumano [01:03:48] Alexa wants to say something.

Guest 3 [01:03:50] Alexa, I just wanted to clarify that she is suu's first, first female president, and she spent also as a. As an event planner, but she also was heavily involved in the university for decades prior to being chosen as interim president after Scott Wyatt left.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] Okay. All right. I, I wonder, does she have a PhD, which is normally a requirement to be a. A president of a university? And you know, I'm just curious about that, and I'm curious if anybody even would have any idea about her. Is she LDS or not? Is she participating LDS or not? Does anybody have any idea? Dallin's raising his hand.

Guest 3 [01:04:42] Yeah. So I just wanted to add my knowledge about her. So I've taken one of her event planning classes that she still teaches back and I think my sophomore year, I'm a junior right now and I really enjoyed her event planning class. She's really good at what she does. Her background is an event planner and like Brooks said, she's very beloved by her students. We all love her as her president. She is, I believe, an active member of the LDS Church. I remember attending a Stake devotional I think about a year ago and she spoke there. She was their main speaker. So as far as I know she is an active member of the church

Guest 5 [01:05:15] and if not still like very supportive, you know, enough for her to be asked to speak at a multi stake devotional.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] Got it. Okay. That's. I don't know. There can be, you can be an ally or not as an active member of the church. I am reading on her bio. Shields a Bachelor of Science in Zoology and a Master of Arts in professional communication from Suu. She does not have a PhD which to me is weird to have a president of a major university or of a university who doesn't have a PhD and who doesn't have a background in this sort of thing, at least as a vice president or provost of other universities. But this is a little bit relevant because like in Utah, sometimes the state legislature and the, you know, Board of regents, whoever those people are, will influence who becomes president of universities.

John Dehlin [01:06:04] And ironically one of the most important historical examples of this was when Jeffrey R. Holland, I'm sure along with the LDS Church used their influence to kind of pick Matt Holland who was only like a professor of political science at BYU University. They kind of cherry picked him and made him president of Utah Valley University when he had never even been, I don't even think he'd ever been a department head, let alone like a vice president or a provost of any other university.

John Dehlin [01:06:36] And you know, I guess if this state is run by the Mormon Church, which it kind of is, I guess they have the right to pick who's the president of the state run universities. But I do think that they're, you know, that presents a bit of a conflict of interest if, if the Mormon Church is pulling the strings about who becomes president and they're selecting active believing members whenever they can to be the president of secular universities, of, of state run secular universities. I think that that might sometimes prevent present a conflict of Interest between secular or LGBT or LGBT affirming citizens and students and the interests of the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [01:07:18] Not to throw any shade on Mindy Benson, because I can tell she's very beloved and it's great to hear she's an ally. One other thing I'll say is as a cousin of Ezra Taft Benson, the former prophet of the Mormon Church, who was very conservative and very controversial, there's a lot of people that are triggered by the name Benson, which is not her fault. But I. And she may not even be related. Desert Benson. But I'm just saying that name is going to be triggering to Mormons.

Kate [01:07:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:45] For that reason. Okay, Brooke, let's go back to you.

Brooke [01:07:50] Yeah.

Guest 5 [01:07:50] So we were in the cabinet meeting, and, yeah, just our biggest questions were why he was picked and how. How that process went. And as we asked, like, you know, why. Why was he picked? You know, there are two people that will be receiving honorary degrees at this year's commencement. And the other, the other person, she is a Cedar City native, 96 years old. She's been Cedar City her whole life. Attended suu, and she founded a very successful dance company that's now, you know, international. I think it's a contemporary dance company or something. And we were like, why didn't you pick her? You know, she a Cedar City native.

Guest 5 [01:08:27] She went here. You know, she has investment in this school, in this community, and she, you know, she has stayed here. She is. And we asked, why. Why did you pick him? You know, and. And all she could do was was restate. You know, we picked him for his Southern Utah roots, you know, for that. He grew up here, you know, how many years ago, until he was 18

John Dehlin [01:08:54] years old, he didn't attend Southern Utah University. Correct.

Guest 5 [01:08:58] Right. To my knowledge, he has no connections to Southern Utah University.

John Dehlin [01:09:02] And did Southern Utah University have a different name before it was renamed to Southern Utah University?

Guest 5 [01:09:08] Yeah, we've gone through three different names before.

Gerardo Sumano [01:09:14] I think Alexa knows.

Guest 3 [01:09:15] Okay, so it's started out as a. More of like a high school. When Cedar City was founded. From there, it transitioned into a college. It was called the Branch Agricultural College then. Since then, throughout the 1900s, it changed names four or five times, mostly technical college names. And then it received university status in 1990 and was named Southern Utah University.

John Dehlin [01:09:45] Thank you, Alexa. Okay, back to you, Brooke.

Guest 4 [01:09:51] Yeah.

Guest 5 [01:09:51] So we were sitting in that meeting, and all she could say was, you know, we want him for his. For his academic achievement and his Southern Utah roots.

John Dehlin [01:10:02] Gerardo's laughing.

Guest 7 [01:10:04] Why are you laughing?

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:04] Well, in his biography that the, that the university posted, they say, how you know that he's been, been a general authority for a long, long time. And we all know general authorities is a full time job. Before he was an apostle, he was a general authority as a full time job. And that has nothing to do with academic qualifications.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] Yeah, I think whoever it was that said, maybe it was Maddie who said this, that it almost sounds like the marketing PR department at the Mormon Church said, how do we revitalize Elder Holland's damaged image after byu? I know. Let's have him give another commencement address on his home, what he considers to be his home field, which is southern Utah. And it almost sounds like the word came down, you know, to, to President Benson. President Mindy Benson. You got to do this.

Gerardo Sumano [01:10:55] And, and I wouldn't want any of the students to comment if they don't want to, but sometimes donations also contribute to this kind of decisions.

John Dehlin [01:11:05] Yeah, but I just can't imagine the Mormon Church needing to donate to SUU to get Holland to speak. It would be more, hey, you guys do this through the state legislature or the Board of Regents. Okay, let's go ahead and go back to Brooke.

Guest 5 [01:11:22] Yeah, so he was picked, you know, solely based off of the fact that he lived here until he was 18 years old, you know, 50 or 60 years ago. And she said, you know, we want a predominant person in the culture here. We want someone that people will.

Guest 5 [01:11:39] Yeah, a successful predominant person in the culture in some of us could, could only chuckle because the only thing that makes him predominant is, is his status as a, an apostle in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Guest 5 [01:11:54] Even though when the university made their announcement, they listed off, you know, 10 or 12 incredible, you know, academic achievements or achievements in his career before, before he became an apostle. Like none of that makes him prominent in the listening sessions yesterday. The people that would come up to defend him, like nobody, nobody recognized those things because that's not who he is here. That's not who he is in this space. That's not who he is here in the state of Utah. That's not what anybody knows him for. They know him for, for his, for his religious standing. And I think that was really important to me that, that we're saying we're bringing him here because of his academics.

Guest 5 [01:12:33] But if we want an academic, there are so many other academics we could bring in who are not religiously affiliated or who have, who have investment in this university, for Pete's sake. Like there are so many other people we could pick anyways. So that's kind of how the cabinet meeting ended. You know, we all shared our stories and Mindy and her cabinet, even though there were some pretty hard questions that we asked, they all handled it really well. They just, they just listened. And even when we would ask for her opinion, she would say, you know, like, I hear that you're asking me a question.

Guest 5 [01:13:15] I don't want it to this to come off as defense. Is it okay if I share this piece with you? Like does and would get consent from everyone in the room. You know, that before she shared sometimes an intention behind what she was doing because she just was so cautious and didn't want this to sound like she was trying to defend herself.

Guest 5 [01:13:36] And multiple times throughout the meeting she was just like, I am sorry, I am sorry. While also recognizing that there was a mistake. And then, you know, meeting adjourned. We all, we all laughed, we all cried together. And I wish more people had been there because it really was, it was just such an emotional meeting. And then everybody left. We kept, you know, meeting together. This was maybe just before 11 o'.

Guest 3 [01:14:05] Clock.

Guest 5 [01:14:07] Then she took a two hour break and headed into the opening listening sessions that had been announced on Friday morning. Originally it was announced that there would be a meeting at 1pm and then a meeting at 4pm and students were invited to attend one or both of the meetings.

Guest 5 [01:14:24] So as the meeting started. Oh, sorry, 12pm and 4pm and so originally there were meetings. At 9 she had a cabinet meeting. At 12 she had a list listening meeting. And at 4 she had another listening meeting. So 9 o', clock, we went till 11 o' clock in that meeting just because everyone had things they wanted to share. Then she went to her 12 o' clock meeting.

Guest 5 [01:14:48] And most people had anticipated an hour, maybe two, as they opened the doors, though the ballroom completely filled, every seat was filled in the ballroom, which is where these listening meetings were held to the point where even like halfway through the meetings, they were like pulling out more racks of chairs just so then people wouldn't have to stand. You know, multiple people thick around the edges of the room.

Guest 5 [01:15:16] And that first meeting that started at noon ran all the way until 3:40 when Mindy Benson, who worked as a moderator, served as moderator for this conversation, asked for a short break for 20 minutes before they started the next listening session.

Guest 5 [01:15:33] So on, on the stage for these events, there was Mindy Benson and the other two members of the board that made the original decision to have Dr. Holland speak as our commencement speaker. And they just all sat and listened to what people had to say. There were three open mics throughout the room, and people just lined up to the back of the room and just took turns speaking. And I thought Mindy was incredibly composed and had incredible. She was just so composed the entire time that she was there. She would get up, and when every student came up, she'd say, okay, what is your name?

Guest 5 [01:16:12] You know, they'd say their name, and then she'd be like, okay, you know, it's so nice to meet you. You know, please share your story. And then they'd share for a. Of couple. Couple minutes. And then at the end of almost every speech, she would address them by name again and say, you know, thank you so and so, and use their name. And then she'd move on to the next speaker and say, hi, how are you? You know, and then they'd introduce themselves and she'd say, you know, good afternoon, so and so, or thank you so and so. And that was so. I thought it was beautiful.

Tanner [01:16:41] Yeah.

Guest 5 [01:16:43] Just for her to be so personal with each person. And the other people, Jody Hartwellson and Eric Schmidt, the other members, the chair and the vice chair, they just. They sat on the stage and they were there. And, you know, sometimes they were nodding along, sometimes they were looking at students. But just to see the way that, like, after these meetings. Yeah, of course.

Guest 3 [01:17:05] Yeah. I just want to add, too, there was a student that got up and just shared some other comments, and one other comment was they addressed Mindy and said, mindy, I know we've never met before, but. And then they shared their story, and at the end of the story, Mindy got off the stage that she was on, and she shook their hand and said, nice to meet you, so and so. I'm glad we can meet now. I mean, so I think it just showed that she really was open to listening to her experiences and that she really was down to earth in this meeting with all of us.

Queer Student Voices on Campus Climate

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:30] Yeah.

Guest 5 [01:17:31] Was she?

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:32] I don't know if she was taking notes on the name, but just the fact that she would, you know, the person would say their name and then remember the name after they're. They have spoken and thank them by name.

Kate [01:17:47] That.

Gerardo Sumano [01:17:47] That's really powerful. I think Kate wants to say something.

Kate [01:17:51] I also just wanted to express how impressed I was with President Mindy Benson and how. How much respect that she showed the students speaking and how much care she showed. Just her body language showed that she was actively listening. I mean, the. She was in this meeting or this listening session for nearly, like, what, like, nine hours on her Feet moving around, actively listening and remembering students names and it was really beautiful and amazing.

Guest 7 [01:18:20] Yeah, she was moving. Oh, sorry.

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:24] The last one when. Fight. Sorry. I just wanted to point out before you say that Odge, that the last one, someone pointed that it was almost five hours, right?

John Dehlin [01:18:37] The second. Second.

Gerardo Sumano [01:18:38] The second session. Yeah, yeah, you can.

Guest 7 [01:18:42] They were super long. I showed up to the sessions at about 2:30 and then I think we left at about 6:30. And you had been there on and off since like 12.

Kate [01:18:55] I left for like an hour. But I was, yeah, I was there and it was exhausting. And there were so many very emotionally heavy stories and I was emotionally exhausted after that. I can only imagine how she felt listening to all those stories.

Guest 7 [01:19:10] Yeah, it was definitely really hard to sit and hear. But I think it was really important for her and for the chair members and for everyone at this university to hear those queer struggles. And I think even though it was very heavy and traumatic, that it was very community building. And I've never in my life seen so many queer people and allies in a room up against a cause together. Like maybe only Salt Lake Pride has had more people than that room. It was like the biggest room in our entire university. And their every single chair was full. And there were so many people there.

Guest 7 [01:19:50] And hearing all of these stories and all of these people coming up and saying, I heard hear you, I love you. If you need anything, come find me was really amazing. And I feel like even though obviously a poor choice was made, a community has been created on campus that is bigger and louder than it ever has been. And faculty and staff are more aware than they ever have been of the queer spaces on campus. And I feel wildly more comfortable being in an openly queer relationship on campus because, you know, homophobes, as they should be, are scared to say homophobic things right now. And that's, you know, a good positive outcome of this.

John Dehlin [01:20:38] Really quickly, I'm curious, do we have any way to estimate how many people are in the room? How many people over the full day bore testimony even to estimate. And then if we wanted to give a percentage of how many were sort of, you know, against Mr. Holland speaking versus for Mr. Holland speaking. And then to. To try. And I know we're going to have a bunch of panelists share their reasons, but I would love to hear somebody try to summarize what were the most common, just briefly, what were the most common sorts of remarks against Mr. Holland speaking and, and when there were people commenting for Mr. Holland. Well, you know, if anyone wants to characterize the, the number, the percentage breakdown of support and summarize the content of the comments. I would love to hear any of that. Tanner. Tanner's.

Gerardo Sumano [01:21:38] Oh, yeah, let's go with Tanner.

John Dehlin [01:21:40] Okay.

Tanner [01:21:40] Okay. So. I'm sorry, I don't know if that's echoing. I wasn't at the entire thing. I was only there from noon to 3 o'.

Guest [01:21:50] Clock.

Tanner [01:21:50] And when we first walked in, my husband and I, we couldn't really tell, I guess, the vibe what was going to happen. And I would say I was really nervous at first that there was going to be a lot of people in support of Holland speaking. And after the first individual spoke, basically saying that they didn't support Holland speaking, there was an uproar of applause and I was shocked. And a woman was sitting in front of me who was very much in favor of Holland. She made comments the whole time, sometimes rude ones, but she looked around and she was appalled by the amount of people that really were just in support of him not speaking.

Tanner [01:22:37] And so I would say if I was going to estimate, and someone can correct me if they feel differently, probably about 85% of the people that were there were against Holland speaking at commencement. That would be my estimate based on what I saw. That's, that's what I would guess.

Guest [01:22:57] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:22:58] Others other want to share. Looks like Mabel's raising. And then.

Gerardo Sumano [01:23:02] Brooke, sorry, one second.

John Dehlin [01:23:08] There we go.

Guest 5 [01:23:09] So I was there the entire time throughout all of the listening session. And just to give some numbers to how many people were there, I would say at the beginning there was at least 800 plus people from students and the community at large. And then by the end there was probably, probably about 100 students still there in support of the people that were still speaking.

Guest 5 [01:23:34] I would say at the beginning it was probably closer to 80% of the speakers at least supporting Holland and 80% against Holland, 20% supporting Holland. And then towards the end, it was probably closer to 90% against Holland and 10% for Holland. And it lasted a really long time. A lot of the people there that spoke against Holland talked a lot about their own personal experiences within the church and some of the consequences that they faced as a direct result of his words at byu.

Guest 5 [01:24:11] And a lot of the people that were for Holland were speaking a lot about their testimony within the church and how they looked up to him, and mostly about his position within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints rather than his academic accomplishments.

John Dehlin [01:24:33] Wow. Thank you, Mabel. That's great. Other. Other people want to comment on this question. Just. Okay, Brooke.

Brooke [01:24:43] Yeah.

Guest 5 [01:24:43] I think Mabel hit it like right, right on the head. It sounded to me. I only counted, I don't know, 12 or 15 people that spoke over the course of the nine hour public listening session in support of Dr. Holland staying as the commencement speaker. And not a single one of them got up and defended him without stating their personal belief and conviction and their belief in him as an apostle of the Church of United States, Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Guest 5 [01:25:17] And I think that almost furthered our point for us that, that the largest reason that there is to keep him, that people believe there is to keep him here is his religious accomplishment. And I think some of the largest, some of the biggest points that were made to, to change the, the speaker or one, the harm that he has caused in a similar situation and that inviting him to speak at a graduation or to speak at another university, especially a public university, is opening up our university to more violence pointed towards people in marginalized communities and the fear that that gives to, that should give, that should give to all students on our campus.

Guest 5 [01:26:10] And there was also a large push for accountability. You know, Dr. Holland has long passed the age of accountability, as the LDS Church recognizes it as the age of 8 years old, where you should be accountable for your actions, for what you say.

Guest 5 [01:26:27] And as a leader and as a public, a public person, he said things that were taken to be violent rhetoric and he, he should be accountable for what he has said. And he has not been kind of like what we were saying earlier.

Guest 5 [01:26:45] He has not made an apology, he has not made, tried to make any reparations for what he has said to the queer community at large or to specific people that this may have targeted more personally, like, like Matt, who's here today.

Guest 5 [01:27:02] And so I think that was another point that was made that he has passed the age of accountability. He knows that, you know, if there's, if he felt bad, he knows that he should have been accountable for something. As a leader, it is his job to take on responsibility for what has been done because of what he has said, all things he's not done. And so if, if we give him another opportunity to speak, you know, will he be accountable to what happens on this university campus? Will he be responsible with his words? And we have no reason to trust that he will be.

John Dehlin [01:27:41] Dylan Dallin?

Guest 3 [01:27:42] Yeah, Something that I remember too, that I thought was interesting was, and most of the people that were defending Holland and staying for the commencement speech, they, a lot of them mentioned that people either didn't read his talk or didn't understand his words. Correctly. And they didn't acknowledge that his words were hurtful to many people. And so I think the first step in understanding is just realizing that what he has said is hurtful to other people. And I think most the people that defended his position did not realize that or understand how his comments were hurtful.

John Dehlin [01:28:13] Yeah, I mean, we all know how the Mormon Church teaches its members about the steps of repentance. And this, this is like a perfect example for the top church leaders to actually demonstrate and live the, the principles that they teach its members. So hopefully Elder Holland will do that. I mean, this is. I, I don't want to get sidetracked, but this is an amazing opportunity for Elder Holland to model the teachings that he and his colleagues teach the rest of the membership. And I hope he'll take advantage of that personally. And that's just a side note. Okay, so anything else we want to say about the listening.

Reflections on the Listening Sessions

John Dehlin [01:28:54] I mean, my comment about the listening session, and maybe, Brooke, you want to respond to this or others, but if I'm President Benson, if I'm President Mindy Benson, and I'm seeing the largest room on campus full and 90% of the people over a nine hour period are saying this is a bad decision, I'm imagining she's feeling a lot of heat that she needs to reconsider this decision.

John Dehlin [01:29:25] I just, given that turnout and the proportionality of people opposed to it already, mathematically, I. It's hard for me to see how, how this stands. Just, just hearing a report back from the listening.

Gerardo Sumano [01:29:41] Emma wants to say something.

John Dehlin [01:29:43] Okay. Emma.

Guest 2 [01:29:46] Yeah. I just wanted to say that Nash had something to say about the previous thing.

John Dehlin [01:29:52] Oh, okay. So we'll add Nash to the chat. Nash can't join the chat because we have too many people in it. So maybe we'll. Emma, we'll take you out for just a second. We'll add Nash and we'll bring.

Gerardo Sumano [01:30:08] I'm gonna remove Emma. I'm adding Nash.

John Dehlin [01:30:12] Okay. And. And so Nash wants to say something. Go ahead, Nash.

Guest 4 [01:30:15] Hello.

Guest 1 [01:30:15] Thank you for putting me in. So I am a junior here at suu. I'm a musical theater major. And I just wanted to say that Mindy Benson has been wonderful to the theater community, very much supporting us, seeing our shows.

Guest 1 [01:30:29] And I think the hardest thing for a lot of the students is that she has been such a wonderful ally and is now going back on her word, essentially. Whereas actions do speak louder than words in this scenario.

Guest 1 [01:30:42] So we're hoping that she's able to see that and take him down as a Speaker, I do also want to add that at least me personally and a lot of my fellow theater students is we do not have a problem with a religious speaker. We live in a very predominantly religious community. But the issue does come when it is a prominent leader with this conflicting rhetoric that has been expressed before. If it was someone who just happened to be a member of the LDS Church, it would be much different than it being a speaker for the apostles.

Guest 1 [01:31:19] Another note is just that the community here at SUU has been very exc. Accepting, has been very open, regardless of belief and background. But since this announcement, I have experienced more homophobia and more conflicts than I ever have before. At suu. I have known a lot of happiness and things to come. And ever since this announcement, it has only caused division.

Guest 1 [01:31:44] So I think it would be a better choice for SUU to choose a speaker who will not divide and instead help us all embrace one another as we have done before. I think that's all I have to say for now.

John Dehlin [01:31:57] Okay, thank you, Nash. We appreciate that perspective. Okay, Anything else we want to say about. I mean, anyone else want to react to the pressure that they perceived President Mindy Benson being under in response to the over overwhelming experience that she would have had during that listening day? And if not, we can, we can go to the next part of the outline. Go ahead, Brooke. Let's bring Brooke back in.

Guest 5 [01:32:28] Just one small comment, just an observation that I'd made. So, Mindy Benson, we started our meetings at 9am and she was listening to students until 9pm that night. Heels and a multicolored blazer. I won't say it was rainbow, but all the colors of the rainbow were

Brooke [01:32:44] present

Guest 5 [01:32:46] in a multicolored blazer in heels on stages for 12 hours long. And after the last meeting concluded, you know, I went up to her and I was like, hey, how are you doing? And she was just so deflated.

Guest 5 [01:33:01] Like you could tell that everything that had been said, really, really, she was listening because you could, you could just see how weighed down she was. And while I wouldn't wish that on anybody, I'm so hopeful for change because I know that she really heard and felt what was being said that day. And, and I'm very curious to see now how she, how she reacts because there really was a strong emotional appeal made all day on Monday that she listened to and she reacted to and I know had an effect on her, but now it's, it's in her court. You know who. I don't want to say that she has to pick sides, but There.

Guest 5 [01:33:39] There's the option to change the speaker or not change the speaker. And I do not envy her position, but I know that. That whatever she decides, you know, she has listened and that she is. Is under just such incredible pressure. Yeah.

Brooke [01:33:57] Yeah.

Guest 5 [01:33:57] I just. I can't even imagine.

John Dehlin [01:34:00] Okay.

Guest 2 [01:34:01] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:34:01] And I just wanna. Yeah, I just want to note too, just along with the pressure that she has to change the speaker, I want to note that while opinions were being shared and lots of stories were being given, there were a lot of solutions that were presented which I thought was very productive. I. Of course, this. One of the solutions could be to remove Jeffrey R. Hond as a speaker and select somebody else who would better represent the students. But other people also presented the solution of possibly bringing another person from the church who has not given such harmful anti LGBTQ rhetoric and allowing them to represent the Latter Day Saint majority here and speak that wouldn't harm our students.

Guest 3 [01:34:38] Another possibility was if Jeffrey R. Holland must stay and speak, that we have a member of the LGBTQ community also speak at commencement in order to represent the student population of LGBTQ students. Am I missing all the other solutions that were proposed?

Guest 5 [01:34:55] A couple other solutions. One, someone got up. Maybe. I think it was someone here. So tell me if I say this wrong, but one solution that was proposed was to pick an LDS person off of a list of 100 influential women in the LDS Church today so that they're still a member of the church. You know, we're not disrespecting the church or trying to tell them that we don't want them here, but that we are opening it up to someone who's maybe a little less forward in their opinions against us. Another opinion that I really like, probably one of my favorite solutions was, so Elder Holland was picked based on his.

Guest 5 [01:35:44] His roots in southern Utah. And we had a student get up that said, if you want someone native to southern Utah, why don't you pick someone native to this land? Why don't you pick an indigenous American to come speak?

Guest 5 [01:35:56] Because Mindy had stated that he was asked to speak on the history of Iron county and just on industry and, you know, with this being a. A historical graduation year for us to have someone come speak on history. And she was like, yeah, you want to talk history? Like, let's actually talk about history. Let's not just talk about, you know, white history. Let's not just talk about, you know, religious history. Let's talk about the history of this land. That was probably my favorite solution that was proposed.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] Okay, great. Okay, well, Anything else anyone want to say about anything before we actually just. Oh, go, Kate. Let's jump to Kate.

Kate [01:36:41] Yeah, I just wanted to share that another solution that wasn't mentioned that was suggested by multiple speakers was implementing voting in the future and involving faculty and students and these kinds of decisions so that we don't run into this kind of problem again.

John Dehlin [01:36:56] Yeah, and that needs to be a system wide thing because we also have, you know, Utah Technical College or university. We have Utah State University, University of Utah, Weber State College of Eastern Utah. I don't even know the names anymore of all these schools, but there's a lot of schools where this could happen. And I just, I just had the thought. I think President Holland attended what was Dixie and is now Utah Tech or, or byu. Like, let him speak there, you know? Anyway. Okay. Any other quick comments? Yes, Dallin

Guest 2 [01:37:34] having.

Guest 3 [01:37:35] Oh, okay. We got it unmuted. I just keep remembering good comments and arguments that were brought up during the meeting that I really liked. One of them that I really thought was interesting, um, was that. Oh, I have it written down right here.

Guest 3 [01:37:52] Oh. One of them that I thought was interesting was how our students are representing SUU values more than our actual leaders. Our students organized peaceful protests. They organized the change.org protest. We were the ones who encouraged Mindy to start this whole listening session. And it was really a neat opportunity to see our students come together and the leadership that we had uphold SUU values.

Guest 3 [01:38:16] And it's really disappointing to see that our students hold SUU values at a higher viewpoint than our leaders themselves, because our leaders should be leading from the top down. They should be the ones who are upholding our university values of diversity and inclusion. And so I thought that was a really interesting argument that somebody brought up that said, we are proud of our students to do this, but it shouldn't be us that is organizing these things, and it shouldn't be us that's saying these are not our values. This should be something from the top, leadership down.

John Dehlin [01:38:45] Beautiful. Okay, if, if, you know, let me just check in with Kate and AJ do you both think that it's time now to go to the statements by the panelists where we Give each person 3, 3 minutes to explain their position and what this will represent is a sampling of the types of comments that SUU students would have made in oppose, you know, to. To Elder Holland's invitation. Kate, is there anything else you. You. You put together a really beautiful outline and structure for this. Is there anything else that. That needs to be said before we move to that part, I'm.

Kate [01:39:29] I don't think so. I feel like we covered. Covered everything that I felt was meaningful. And do you.

Guest 7 [01:39:36] Yeah. Feel like. Yeah. Covered all those things. Would love to hear what everybody else has to say. All the, you know, opinions that we have, the community.

Student Personal Statements Begin

John Dehlin [01:39:49] Okay, so. So, Kate and Odds. Do one of you. One or either of you want to go first or do we want to start with other people? In terms of your statement, now begins the student statements.

Guest 7 [01:40:03] So, yeah, I can start if you want.

Guest 2 [01:40:10] I

Guest 7 [01:40:12] probably not gonna go through and give my whole speech that I gave to Mindy, but just some snippets and then some other things that I wasn't able to share. The thing that I really focused on while talking to President Benson and the board behind her, and I tried to really look at the board. I feel like the people were focusing on Mindy Benson, and it is her job to take that blame for everybody. But I really do think that it was the chair and the vice chair that were making the most of this decision and that they were not expecting this backlash. And I'm glad that we had this backlash to show them that we're here. But the thing that I focused on the most was the same sex challenge.

John Dehlin [01:40:58] And talking about, if you don't mind, talk about it like how you feel now. You can refer back if you want, but I. I would just love to hear your direct appeal or reasoning right now about what you don't like about this decision. You know.

Guest 7 [01:41:15] Yeah, no, I totally get that. I think this decision was not looked at with the gravity that it truly holds, which is why I love the backlash that we have had because it shows that there is gravity to this decision.

Guest 7 [01:41:36] And I still do want to make the metaphor on this podcast, or not metaphor, but I guess comparison with the same sex challenges that the church says. Same sex challenge, as in, it's a challenge that I think women are pretty, but the real same sex challenge is that I'm scared that I could be killed for thinking that women are pretty. And I went through multiple experiences of active homophobia, multiple of which have happened here, this, on campus, looking at Mindy and those board of trustees members, telling them about hate crimes that me and my friends have experienced on campus and saying that this is the same sex challenge.

Guest 7 [01:42:18] The same sex challenge is being called slurs in your library parking lot. The same sex challenge is being told for all of my life that gay was a bad word and being gay was wrong, and that that's the same sex challenge. And you are making it Obvious that you agree or that, like, you don't feel that way, that you agree with Holland. And something that I said to the provost over a year ago when I was on student government is that I believe the SUU has a Sunday Christian approach to diversity. That they will come out with their pride flags and they will come out with their events, and they say inclusivity, and they throw it in as a buzzword word on things, but that they truly don't believe it, because if they believed it, they would show it.

Guest 7 [01:43:05] There was a quote from the Holland talk, and this is something I wasn't able to share yesterday, but wish that I could have. Other people did, though, love that for them. Holland, in his speech that we've all been referencing, says, be careful that love and empathy do not get interpreted as condoning and advocacy. And to that without advocacy, there is no love. You cannot truly love me and love my relationship without advocating for my rights.

Guest 7 [01:43:35] And I feel like that should be so obvious that you need to have this advocacy. And something amazing that I want to point out is in the comments of this video, this live stream that I've been looking out on our other devices over here, one of our professors here at SUU referenced that comment and said, love is advocacy in all caps. And I absolutely adore her. She has taught both Kate and I. And just seeing multiple of our professors at the listening session in the petition comments, and now here on this comment section of this video, that they're watching us and they're seeing us, and they are saying in all caps, love is advocacy. Knowing that I have advocates here at su.

Guest 5 [01:44:34] Great.

Guest 7 [01:44:35] But obviously Holland is not one of those advocate advocates. And the people who support him and support this decision are not advocates. And without that advocacy, I don't believe that I can be loved by the admin of my university. And that's been very, very difficult and very, very hopeless. In the face of all of the hate crimes and anti trans and LGBTQ plus legislature that are happening nationwide, it is very hopeless to.

Guest 3 [01:45:09] Sorry.

Guest 7 [01:45:09] I was all over the place.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] Perfect. That was powerful. Thank you, aj. Were you gonna say something, Gerardo?

Guest 3 [01:45:16] No.

John Dehlin [01:45:17] Okay. All right. Thank you, AJ. We're gonna be doing about, I think, 10, 10 different people. Let's go ahead and bring back Nash. And Nash, let's have you go next.

Guest 1 [01:45:28] Hi. Thank you. I did briefly introduce myself earlier, but I'll go ahead again. I have taken a semesters here at SUU within three years. I'm a junior, and I am on the board for suu's Student run theater company called Second Studio.

Guest 1 [01:45:43] I am ex Mormon. I left the church around the age of 14 I believe and I have been very, very blessed that I actually still do have a great relationship with my family and with the church and with my friends who are members on Second Studio board. I am showcase director with my co director Jet Larsen and we host a show every month that is just students auditioning with pieces that they want to perform. It's a wonderful opportunity for these students to just perform and explore themselves on stage.

Guest 1 [01:46:16] And me and Jet I bring up because I myself am no longer a part of the church. And Jet is still, and he's about to get married in the temple and we have beautiful conversations every day about how coexisting is the best way to go about this. When we're in Utah, there's no way that you can get around the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and there's no way that we can fight hate with hate. And if we approach it with love and understanding, then it will be much more productive.

Guest 1 [01:46:47] I do think it's also important to note the consequences that would come if we do go through and still have Dr. Holland speak at commencement, which there has been some talk among some theater students of possibly not ending commencement, of organizing our own commencements. Our professors have expressed that they do feel very badly and they're not sure where they're supposed to even stand on this.

Guest 1 [01:47:13] And I think that that that consequence is much heavier than if we were to choose a different speaker and there's a lot of options there. I do quickly want to also shout out some of our stuff we've got going on. We have a walkout this Thursday. It's going to be a peaceful display of queer joy and solidarity. It'll be 11am to 1pm in the library quad for students who are interested in attending. And we have plenty of wonderful professors and board members to reach out to.

Guest 1 [01:47:50] You can also send an email to. I believe we can link this in the description. It's all in the outline. We've got the Board of Trustees general email. We've got Jody Hart Wilson and Eric Schmitz. There's tons of people that we can reach out to and make our voices heard. I also want to thank John for giving us all this opportunity to voice our concerns. It really does just show how much support we do have here and the community community that we have worked so, so very hard to build. If we do go through with this speaker, it would just actions do speak louder than words and it would only divide our campus more than if we were to bring on a woman from the church or an indigenous person from the church, even.

Guest 1 [01:48:32] It doesn't even matter if they're from the church or not. But I do understand that it is important to have representation for everyone. So.

Brooke [01:48:39] Yes.

Guest 5 [01:48:40] Yeah.

Guest 1 [01:48:41] That's about all I have to say.

John Dehlin [01:48:42] Perfect. All right. Thank you so much, Nash. Let's see. I'm seeing different orders, but. But, Kate, I think I had you going next. Kate, do you want to go? Go next?

Kate [01:48:56] Yeah, I can go.

Guest 7 [01:49:00] So I'm.

Kate [01:49:01] I'm. Kate, I'm queer, and

Guest 2 [01:49:07] I am.

Kate [01:49:07] As soon as you, obviously. And I was raised in the church. I was raised lds, and I was taught that being queer was wrong. I spent a lot of years trying to convince myself that I was straight, and I finally came out to myself when I was, I think, 19 or 20.

Kate [01:49:29] And it's. It's been a wild ride. But this is really meaningful to me. This has been a meaningful journey for me to untangle my ideas of religion and overcome the internalized homophobia that's been ingrained in me from being raised in the church. And I. Holland's words have been impactful for me and so many other members who were raised in the church, members who are currently in the church.

Kate [01:49:58] And having speak was really hurtful. Potentially having him speak is really hurtful. And the first thing that I felt was just hurt and anger, and all I think could think to do was to reach out and act. And that's why we're here.

Kate [01:50:23] That's why I'm here, is because I want to make a difference. I want to make a better campus for the next student. I want to make more safe and accepting campus for the next student. It's been hard facing a lot of homophobia on campus. Even before I was out, I just wearing a mask. I was clocked as, you know, a liberal, and the way I dress, and it was upsetting to be called slurs. And I don't want to create a campus that supports that kind of thing. I want to create a campus that is loving and accepting. And I don't feel like having Jeffrey R.

Kate [01:51:01] Holland speak at our commencement is going to be conducive to that goal. But it's been really, really meaningful to me to see all these people come out in support of the LGBTQ community. So many faculty. I love you guys. I love this school, and I want to make it better. I love being here.

Tanner [01:51:23] I.

Kate [01:51:24] You know, I want to make this a safe place to be queer. Recently, Been in an openly queer relationship, and navigating that on campus has been really difficult. And learning to feel safe in a space that is predominantly conservatives and people who I don't feel are going to support me and my partner. And I want to change that, so I want my voice to be heard.

John Dehlin [01:51:56] Beautiful. Thank you, Kate. Okay, next. Let's. Let's go to Tanner. Tanner, let's have you go next.

Tanner [01:52:07] Okay, perfect. My name is Tanner White. I didn't introduce myself earlier. I'm a senior here at suu, so I will be graduating when this. Whatever commencement speech takes place. I was raised as a member of the church recently. Within the last two years, I'd say I have stepped away, so I no longer consider myself a member.

Tanner [01:52:31] I am not queer, but I would consider myself an ally. I have a lot of friends and family who are queer, and I. That's why this hit home for me so hard, because I knew that this was going to hurt a lot of people that I loved. So I'm just going to read you guys a statement that I wrote. And I wrote this in case there was an opportunity to speak yesterday, but there was not. A lot of people did a great job. So I'm going to read it for you guys now. Okay? From the moment I heard Jeffrey R. Holland was our commencement speaker, I was devastated.

Tanner [01:53:01] I was so hurt. For those I had known, he had hurt with his words. I remember how much pain came from the words of his musket fire talk a couple years ago. Those words may have been metaphorical, but the consequences were not.

Tanner [01:53:15] And then I added this. So Yesterday, Monday the 20th, I sat around with hundreds of my peers for hours and listened to stories and emotional speeches on why Holland should not be permitted to speak. It was heartbreaking to hear what so many of my peers had gone through because of his work.

Brooke [01:53:31] Words.

Tanner [01:53:31] From a very young age, I have been taught that we are defined by our words and our actions. The words and actions of Holland have hurt many people, whether it be emotional harm or because they incited physical harm. The problem is not the fact that he is a religious leader, but the fact that he is someone whose words have caused pain to many. I love SUU and I have loved all my years here very much. Commencement day is a day of celebration. It is a day that we are rewarded for the years of hard work that we have done. It pains me to think that after all the hard work we did, many of us will not be able to enjoy the celebration of our achievements because a commencement speaker is someone who has been against us for a very long time.

Tanner [01:54:09] After all the time and money poured into receiving an education, we all deserve to feel safe and comfortable at our graduation. So that's just what I wanted to share. I just really stand by that. I think we worked really hard, and we all deserve to feel safe and comfortable at our graduation.

Tanner [01:54:28] And, I mean, we deserve to feel safe and comfortable always. And I just don't believe that this is a safe and comfortable presence, just like everybody else has said.

Guest 2 [01:54:38] So.

Tanner [01:54:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:40] Beautiful. Okay. Thank you, Tanner. Thank you so much for sharing. Let's now go to Hannah, if you don't mind. Hannah, you go next.

Guest 4 [01:54:54] So I'm Hannah. I use she. They pronouns. I'm an elementary education major, and I'm a sophomore. I'm an ex Mormon. There are nine generations of Mormons in my family. So I grew up listening to Jeffrey. I was in a very orthodox Mormon home.

Guest 4 [01:55:10] When I was around 15 or 16, I was forced to come out. I spent my entire time in the church basically wanting to leave and spent my entire high school spending at least part of my day within a church.

Guest 4 [01:55:22] So when I found out that Jeffrey got announced as speaker, I was furious. I felt like the safe place that I found up here was just a PR stunt to make it look like it made me feel like everything else, the safe space that I'd found here was just a PR stunt to be like, look at us. We're the accepting school. Because when I first came here, all I found was acceptable acceptance. I had a queer RA and a queer professor, and a bunch of my professors took the safety zone training to be a safe space for queer students just like me. No one had ever called me a slur here.

Guest 4 [01:55:58] I still don't understand why they picked him. None of the reasons seemed good enough or make enough sense. He's a root of traumatic experiences for me and other students and wrote up suicides and suicide attempts for me and other students.

Guest 4 [01:56:16] Two years ago, after his speech about musket fire, I knew people that were wanting to take his words literally, and they would have if given the word from God or whatever. So it was a punch in the gut to see it forgotten about so quickly by the leaders at suu. It doesn't matter that he's religious.

Guest 4 [01:56:40] I would love to hear from a rabbi or any Christian leader, a monk, even, or even a different apostle that was less controversial. Yeah, When I was scrolling through the comments on the first day that they posted that, I saw a lot of people, a lot of members backing him up and being like, oh, it was taken out of the context. But I also saw quite a few members standing up for the queer community and putting their faith aside to acknowledge the hurt that the queer community has faced because of Jeffrey.

Guest 4 [01:57:15] Which I'm glad about because I convinced my sister to attend SUU next fall over BYU because she'd find more members of the church with similar views towards the queer community that she has. Sorry. A bunch of my friends were super confused because I have a bunch of friends that are graduating and they were like, who is he? Why is he chosen? And once they found out he was Mormon, they instantly were mad because they have very negative views surrounding the church just based off of experience living in the area. So for four years, I don't know. And then also this was announced the day before they opened the Queer center, if I'm not wrong.

Guest 4 [01:58:01] And I hope that was just really bad timing. To me, it felt like PR to open the Queer center right after announcing someone so harmful to us as a commencement speaker. I love suu, but as the current student who is not graduating, I'm going to spend the next two years here wondering if they care about queer students or not. I know many faculty who do care, and I'd like to believe that SU is still a safe place for me and others. SUU and Cedar City have become my home, and I know no space a person is perfect.

Guest 4 [01:58:30] I hope that we will be actually heard and actions will be taken to remedy the situation and anger on all sides that has been stirred up is remedied, and allyship and safety for queer students will be stronger. I think I'm thankful that Mindy took time to listen to us. I hope for a peaceful resolve to this all.

John Dehlin [01:58:52] Beautiful. Thank you so much, Hannah. That's. That's powerful. It's. If it's all right, Alexa, let's have you go next. And I should say, Alexa, I saw that, that you posted. I think, I believe is you who posted your. Your speech in the Mormon Stories podcast community. I saw Gerardo comment about it. It was a very powerful. All these comments have been powerful. I know that others will be too. But I just want to say I. I reached out to you because I was really impressed by the statement that I think you're about to read. So, Alexa, let's have you go next.

Guest 3 [01:59:31] Thank you very much and thank you for having me today. Like. Like John said, I will be reading my statement that I made directly to President Benson and the board of trustees. So I'm Alexa. I'm in my third year here. At SUU studying Spanish, English, and Political science with a minor in Women and Gender Studies. And I appreciate that they took the time to listen to all of these students today.

Guest 3 [01:59:57] As a reminder, the petition to remove Dr. Holland as commencement speaker has over 16,000 signatures, whereas two petitions to keep him are at a combined total of about 3,000. In the Democratic republic that we live in, that sends a very clear message about how students, faculty, and community members feel.

Guest 3 [02:00:18] With that being said, I feel as though my peers have adequately addressed their concerns about Dr. Holland's violent rhetoric against the LGBTQ community. And I'm sure that by the time this is all over, no one's ever going to want to hear the words musket fire again.

Guest 3 [02:00:32] So I would like to instead take this time to address how this is an inappropriate choice of commencing speaker, not because of Holland's religious affiliation, but because of this university's LGBTQ community and it's also its majority population of women.

Guest 3 [02:00:48] So in 2005, Dr. Holland gave a talk labeled Two Young Women. In it, he encourages young women to dress modestly by saying, good friends would never embarrass you, demean you, or exploit you. Neither should your clothing. If it's not already apparent, clothing is not capable of exploiting its worker or its wearer. That is the onus of the person objectifying the wearer.

Guest 3 [02:01:14] Additionally, Holland has not spoken to young men about the importance of not sexualizing their peers. This is a double Standard. Then, in 2012, when the LA Times reported on the church's new missionary policy, Jeffrey Holland was asked why? Why officials didn't allow women to serve for two years like men. He responded, one miracle at a time.

Guest 3 [02:01:38] Having Jeffrey R. Holland speak at commencement would be a step backward for the women and LGBTQ members of this campus, especially on its 125th anniversary. To highlight just how far back of a step this would be, I'd like to reintroduce to a woman from suu's history, Esther Egerton Peterson. She taught here when it was still the BAC in the 30s. Then she returned in 1967 as that class's keynote speaker. Some of her accomplishments include induction into the National Women's hall of Fame, the Presidential Medal of Freedom, and the Mother of the Equal Pay act of 1963, which acted as the impetus to begin to minimize the gender pay gap.

Guest 3 [02:02:19] Coincidentally, she was also a Mormon. This is the type of speaker that The Class of 2023 deserves, just as their fellow alumni received 56 years ago. As such, I have a few proposed solutions First, Jeffrey R. Holland needs to be removed as the keynote speaker. It's plain.

Guest 3 [02:02:37] Instead, he should give a devotional the Sunday before commencement so that members of his church from the SUU community still have the opportunity to hear him speak, but so that graduates of the class of 2023 are not subjected to these beliefs on a day that is supposed to be about them. If Holland is allowed to speak, I guarantee that the commencement ceremony of 2023 will no longer be about these students amazing achievements. Secondly, in an attempt to compromise on Holland's replacement, I recommend a Native American from Utah or someone from this list of 100 coolest Mormon women alive today. I emailed President Benson the link.

Guest 3 [02:03:17] Lastly, at the very least, please take from this a lesson to make a more informed and appropriate decision for next year and years to come. Finally, to President Benson, specifically, you have the unique challenge and responsibility of being suu's first female president. Perhaps it's not fair, but you will be looked at as the woman who rose to the challenge or succumbed to the pressure. This is just a fact for women in power in today's society. I encourage you to think of Esther and make a decision that will reflect on the type of presidency you would like to be recorded in suu's history. Tell the women of this campus that their place in higher education is secure, valued and necessary for a better future just as much as it was in 1967. Again, thank you for your time.

John Dehlin [02:04:04] Beautiful and powerful. Thank you so much, Alexa. That was. That was fantastic. Let's go to Robbie and then Mikey next. For those who don't know, who are just listening but not viewing, Robbie and Mikey have chosen to not show visuals of their, you know, of their faces. And I, I would invite Robbie and. Or Mikey maybe to just quickly explain why in, in SUU culture or in broader Mormon culture, maybe you. You made this decision. So let's go ahead and go to Robbie and Mikey next.

Anonymous Queer Students Share Their Stories

Guest [02:04:40] Yeah, so this is Robbie talking. Mikey will speak right after me. But we have decided to keep our faces and our real legal names out of this podcast because the truth of it is, is it is dangerous to be out queer and using your voice to make change in this community. Between me and Mikey, we would both have severe consequences within our own family if they were to find out about us being openly opposed to Holland speaking, especially with or in orthodox Mormonism. It. The amount of shunning and the way that our relationships would be internally collapse would be devastating. But we also found that if we didn't speak today, we would Regret it. And we wanted to make sure our voices were heard, especially for those people that we also know still can't speak because they're in even worse situations than we are.

John Dehlin [02:05:42] Powerful. Beautiful. Thank you, Robbie.

Guest [02:05:45] Yeah, so I'll just go into my piece that I have kind of written and I'll introduce myself a little bit better. I'm a queer non binary student at suu and I am a graduating senior this spring. This is my graduation. I'll be graduating with a Bachelor of Fine Arts.

Guest [02:06:04] And I grew up in a very Mormon family, similarly to other peers eight generations back. And growing up, I always felt broken and like something was wrong with me. Whether that was taught to me by my parents or the overall culture, I'm not sure. But I felt that something was wrong with me. And as I went up through high school, I started. I finally found the word that it was because I was a part of the queer community.

Guest [02:06:32] And once I graduated high school and I moved to suu, I found a place where I was able to freely be myself. And I love SUU because I. It was my place to come out and live truly as who I wanted to be.

Guest [02:06:48] My story with this whole situation kind of starts the summer of my sophomore year when I moved home for financial reasons and I was leaving the church. I was coming out of the church and then Holland gave this musket fire talk. And I remember not wanting to offend my parents, but running out into my driveway and getting in my car at three in the morning and just sobbing my eyes out and feeling so broken. It was truly one of the darkest moments that I can remember in recent years because I didn't know how to reconcile a really a religion that I felt a part of and a community I felt a part of.

Guest [02:07:32] Eventually, though, I called my friend and we had a conversation and she just kept telling me, it's okay, you get to go back to school in the fall. You get to go back to your safe place. You get to go back to school.

Guest [02:07:43] And it was true. I got through that summer because I did end up going back to school and finding my safe place again. And it strained relationships with my family. But I left the church. And now when this whole announcement was made that he would be the commencement speaker, it all came rushing back. All of those dark days came rushing back. And I remember just being devastated.

Guest [02:08:08] I love my family and I mean no ill will to the Mormon Church, but I. I was devastated by the announcement of speaker and I can't imagine what it will be like for me if I have to sit at my own commencement and feel that unsafe again. And I hope that they change the commencement speaker so that I don't have to feel that way. But I also, I have queer joy surrounding this and I. I won't let any speaker ruin my graduation for me. And I will be there. So that's my piece and I'm going to turn it over to Mikey.

Guest 6 [02:08:39] Amen to that.

John Dehlin [02:08:41] Thank you, Robbie.

Guest 6 [02:08:44] So hi, I'm Mikey. I'm graduating this semester as well. And I'm also an expo and a queer student here at suu. For me, this is really important to me because not only am I graduating, but this is the school that I've had the most growth in the last few years. Ever since freshman year. I have made huge leaps in my own self growth and development between that time I went on a mission and I got married in the temple and I watched how my life just changed so drastically. And I appreciated the kind of community that I was able to get at SCU that I wouldn't have been able to get other places.

Guest 6 [02:09:32] And from my own personal experience, it was so much better than the environment I had at home. I grew up in Utah county, so it's just having that queer community there for me, having those exmouth people there, that's really what helped me through my entire journey as a student. And to now get to that finish line and to now get to commencement, it just really hits different. It hits home to see all that growth of what it meant to get to the place I'm at and then to have the speaker that we have and just so everything's clear.

Guest 6 [02:10:15] Having a different opinion as a speaker is not the problem. It's great to have different opinions, but it always needs to stop when it comes to having violent imagery and metaphors. And that should happen and be a standard no matter where people are, no matter where they are in the world. Quite frankly, at the end of the day, there needs to be a boundary with that and we are not a different group. We are here and it is personal. And that is all. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:10:43] Beautiful. Thank you so much, Mikey. Thank you, Robbie. That was beautiful. Let's go ahead and go to Emma next. So Emma?

More Graduating Seniors Speak Out

Guest 2 [02:10:55] Yeah. Okay. So my name is Emma. I am also a graduating senior this semester. I was raised in the church and I have since left. I've been out since like actually out since I was 18. I've been emotionally out since I was 16 due to some events that had happened in my family, with my relationship with the church. I have A lot of deep ties. I was raised in the Salt Lake area.

Guest 2 [02:11:24] My fifth great grandfather wrote the song come, come, you saints as he was walking across the plains coming over to Utah. But When I was 11, my mom decided to accept herself and come out as gay, which affected not only me, but my two little sisters and as well as my dad and her family. But I'm not here to tell my mom's story, so I'll just share how it affected me in. In 2015. 2015, it was kind of alluded to, but it was stated that children of LGBTQ parents would have to renounce their parents in order to get baptized into the church.

Guest 2 [02:12:11] And at that time, I had a little sister who wasn't yet 8 years old, and she would have to make that really hard decision because of our unique situation. And that that, in and of itself, was kind of what made my shelter break and what made me a firm ally to the community.

Guest 2 [02:12:30] I'm super lucky that I have the privilege to be in a loving straight relationship with my amazing boyfriend. But I need to stand up for my friends and my family who are affected by these harmful rhetorics that people like Dr. Holland are spreading.

Guest 2 [02:12:48] Again, I want to reiterate the utmost respect for Mindy and the board for the steps they've taken lately to listen to the students, to really take to mind what they have to say, no matter their opinion, whether they want Holland to stay or if they want Holland to not speak or if they want Holland to do a devotional or whatever their opinion. I really appreciate and respect her and their time to really listen to us.

Guest 2 [02:13:17] Having Holland speak will not only affect my friends who are graduating, who are part of the LGBTQ community, but it will affect me as an ally. And having to see them hurt and having to see their heartbreak and having to sit with them while they cry and cry with them. And I just want Su to know that I am a proud T bird. I was a proud T bird. I still am. Even though this controversy is going on, I'm proud of the support that we have given a community that maybe hadn't had that much support in previous years. And now that we can show that to them, I'm super proud of all the students coming out and supporting people no matter their views.

Guest 2 [02:13:59] And I just want everybody to know that you have an advocate in me. You have an advocate in my family. We will support you, we will love you, and I'm a proud T bird, no matter what.

John Dehlin [02:14:12] Beautiful. Thank you. Emma. Claire, let's have you go.

Guest 5 [02:14:18] Hi.

Brooke [02:14:18] I'm Claire. I am a sophomore here at suu. I am an exercise science major who's also doubling in equine studies. So it's kind of a fun little mix of everything.

John Dehlin [02:14:30] That's horses, right?

Brooke [02:14:32] Yeah, that's horses. It's super fun. But I actually want to talk more about why I came to SUU for a little bit of background. I come from a very. I mean, I moved around a lot, but one place that was always consistent in my life every two years is that I came from a town just up north a couple miles. That is. That was a very, very conservative community.

Brooke [02:14:55] In fact, a couple years ago, we even had a rare form of support where we actually were able to have Pride banners hung up in our town in honor of our community during Pride Month. However, our town soon turned to, like, backlash, and it ended up getting laws even changed in our town that will prevent banners from probably ever being flown again in my town and in the community. I was a music student, so it was a very open spot for me to be myself in school, but a lot of times that often got taken away. I even had a very close friend who actually had to leave campus after becoming out as an openly transgender woman.

Brooke [02:15:38] And she was actually forced to leave after getting so much hate and even death threats. And due to a lot of other circumstances and coming from a very religious family, I was kind of forced to stay in the. The closet and kind of had to hide and even in some cases, pretend to be, like, just a very bad experience at home. A lot of mental health issues, a lot of suicidal ideation.

Brooke [02:16:05] But I went to college to hopefully get away from that. So I heard this campus was a very open, beautiful campus where I could finally be out, finally be safe to be myself. And so here I came. I was very fortunate to be given a bunch of roommates, all of us together. Out of the six of us in that one room, four of us ended up being members of the LGBTQ community.

Brooke [02:16:27] Such a beautiful, warm, inviting environment. We were even able to hang out Pride flags and all sorts of other show of support from our room. And we had an out facing window so that as you walked by, you would walk by and say, hey, now those are some fruity people living there.

Brooke [02:16:44] And we even got like, of course there's repercussions for that. We got threats and all sorts of stuff. But even through all that, I still felt safe. I still felt loved on campus. And we were able to put up more because we decided that no show of hate would stop us from loving who we were.

Brooke [02:17:04] But it was. The announcement came actually a little later because it was a friend who brought it up to me and actually came to me and pulled me aside in tears. And she told me that, Claire, I don't know what to do. And I said, about what? And then she shared who the commencement speaker was, and my heart dropped. I just felt very unsafe. And I felt like I had come so far to get to a community where I could finally be out and be myself. And that choice was. Was slowly being taken away from me.

Brooke [02:17:36] And I had friends expressing that fears that were still in the closet, saying, I think I might have to come out at my family events next. It's a big debate. They're already asking questions, and I don't know, there's just been a lot of fear on campus. But I also noticed that there has been such an outpouring of love. I've never felt like, as a community, that we were all able to join together.

Brooke [02:17:58] And even the school was very open and understanding to the fact that they were open to discussion. We were able to sit and listen and actually express our feelings and opinions about this together. And I think that no matter what the decision ends up being, I feel like we will still stand up strong as a community and still have love and support for everyone and still be able to be who we are and not back down or hide back in fear. Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:18:26] So beautiful. Thank you so much, Claire. Very beautiful. Okay, Mabel, if it's all right, let's have you go next.

Guest 5 [02:18:37] All right. I'm Mabel. I'm currently a junior at suu, and for most of my life, I was a devout member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. However, like many of the other people in this call with me right now, I'm also a member of the LGBTQ community. I struggled with same sex attraction, as people in the church call it. For years, I was in denial. I forced myself to date men, all because I loved the church so much. When I decided, when I was deciding which college I wanted to go to, my goal throughout all my childhood and teenage years was to go to Brigham Young University.

Guest 5 [02:19:16] So my senior year, I applied and I was accepted to byu. But around the same time, my mental health hit an all time low. And for years, I was struggling to try to find my place within the church and my place as an LGBTQ person.

Guest 5 [02:19:34] And my senior year, my faith crisis just went from substantial to all consuming. I felt scared and I felt unwanted in a place community that I was a part of for all of my life. And at that point, I knew that if I were to go to byu, where I would have had to continue to be part of the church and continue to deny who I am, I probably wouldn't have made it to 20.

Guest 5 [02:20:02] So I started to look into alternatives, and one of the. One of the best ones was Southern Utah University. Not only was it a good school for the major that I wanted, it was also a school that prided itself on inclusivity.

Guest 5 [02:20:18] It had offices like the center for Diversity and Inclusion, and it had many, many clubs on campus for LGBTQ students and other minority students. So I packed my bags and I moved on down here, and I met some of the most loving and caring people that I've ever met in my life.

Guest 5 [02:20:38] And for the first time on this campus, I felt truly accepted and wanted for who I was. And I never regretted my decision to come here, especially not In August of 2021, when Jeffrey R. Holland made his infamous Musket Fire devotional at byu.

Guest 5 [02:20:58] In that speech, there are very pointed remarks at people like me. And while Musket Fire was a metaphor, it still made many of the LGBTQ students that I know at BYU feel unsafe and unwanted. And even 200 miles away, I still felt the impact of that devotional.

Tanner [02:21:17] And

Guest 5 [02:21:19] I also felt a sick sense of relief. I felt like I had dodged a bullet, if you pardon my pun, by coming to SUU instead of byu. I was at a university that prided itself on love and the inclusion of people from all walks of life, and not even university that would let a man who would say such hateful things speak on their behalf in front of a large and public audience.

Guest 5 [02:21:46] That was until last Thursday, when it was announced that SUU would be allowing Jeffrey R. Holland to speak on their behalf in front of a large and public audience. I wanted to go to a university. If I wanted to go to a university that I knew didn't care about me, I would have stayed with my original decision and gone to byu.

Guest 5 [02:22:05] But I chose to come here because SUU said they were different, and I believed them. So I want better for this university that I love so much. I want them to honor their word, to be inclusive, and I want everyone here to feel safe and welcome. And that's why I'm opposed to Jeffrey R. Holland speaking at this commencement.

John Dehlin [02:22:29] Beautiful. That was beautiful, Maven. Thank you so, so much. Yeah, we should be clapping. I see Dallin clapping. Okay, let's go to. Oh, let's go to Brooke. Let's go to Brooke next. As she Unmutes.

Guest 5 [02:22:50] Okay.

Brooke [02:22:51] There we go. Sorry.

Guest 5 [02:22:52] There's still a little boomer in me.

John Dehlin [02:22:56] Hey, I resent that. I resent that.

Letter to the Board of Trustees

Guest 5 [02:23:02] So I just wanted to share a letter that I wrote to the board and that I shared at one of our listening sessions yesterday, because I think it really encompasses some of the big emotions that I've been feeling the last couple of days and.

Guest 5 [02:23:19] And the need that I see for justice. Everyone knows there's a predominant culture here in the state of Utah with a religious group as the backbone. This effort to change the commencement speaker is not an attack on a religion or any member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As a group, we are trying to use peaceful messages and decorum to help you see the effects of your decision. This movement is not to slander or to. To fame an apostle of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but to hold accountable a man who has unapologetically shared messages that have hurt students here at suu.

Guest 5 [02:23:50] Your students, no matter the intention or the details of the words used, people have been hurt and have never heard an apology for the hurt caused by public comments and papers shared by this man. Dr. Holland has long passed the age of accountability, and we need to hold him socially, accept, accountable for the words he has spoken and the effect they have had. Until you have felt the words, until you've been affected by the hate that follows, you cannot say that we're being dramatic or taking his messages out of context.

Guest 5 [02:24:20] As a university, Southern Utah University has been a place for students to come to be supported and held safe as who we are. Because of suu's policies on diversity and inclusion, our university is the best option this state has to offer for students of the queer community and other marginalized communities. Utahn queer students flock here because you have loudly, proudly opened your arms to them.

Guest 5 [02:24:43] Maybe this is why this has felt like such a betrayal to your students as you chose the commencement speaker, as you chose to invite someone who has hurt numerous students, choosing someone who can preach, they love us, and in the same sentence say we need to be defended against.

Guest 5 [02:24:58] While we thank you for your investigation investment into the diverse communities on campus by providing a Q Center to the LGBTQIA community and its allies and supporting a center for diversity and inclusion for many other marginalized communities on campus, we ask you to allow for the entire campus on April 28th to be a center for diversity and inclusion.

Guest 5 [02:25:19] You know our goal is to have Dr. Jeffrey R. Holland removed as the commencement speaker this year. And I know that changing the speaker puts you in a sticky place as you are asked to pick a side. But it is not a man with a multi billion dollar institution backing him who needs your protection. It's your students at suu, your queer T birds.

Guest 5 [02:25:38] I trust you all and I have hope for change. I will hold out that hope until the morning of graduation if need be. But my question to the board, what will it take for you to make this change? How many more hundreds of letters and emails, how many more thousands of signatures on a petition representing alumni, students, staff, faculty, sponsors and prospective students do we need to collect, beloved board? How many more students need to bear their souls and share the trauma that Mr. Holland and his supporters have caused for you to choose to change your decision and protect the individuals at this university who have entrusted their education and protection to your hands?

John Dehlin [02:26:16] Beautiful. Thank you so much, Brooke. I'm. I'm told that that. Mabel, I called you Maven, so I just want to correct that and apologize. I'll blame Maven. No, I'll blame myself. I'm just kidding. Maybe it actually helped me realize that I did that. Sorry about that, Mabel. Okay. Yes. That was beautiful, Brooke. Thank you so much. Now let's go to Dallin.

Guest 3 [02:26:40] All right, well, first I'd just like to thank say I'm honored to be here on this podcast. I'm honored for you, John, to give us the opportunity for our voices to be heard and to just express our concerns with this. So thank you so much for letting us be here.

Guest 3 [02:26:55] I also, before just introducing myself, I have been a long time fan of Mormon stories for about two years now. So I just wanted to give a shout out to some of my most influential people or podcasts that I've listened to. Donna Showalter, Haley Everts and Chandler Roberson were really influential in my faith journey. So I just want to give him a shout out as well as I absolutely love Kara and John Larsen when they come on their episodes. I love the fire that they bring, and also I love Gerardo, his representation as a member of the queer community here. And especially you, John Delynn.

Guest 3 [02:27:29] I'd really like to thank you for the knowledge that you bring in the perspective that you bring with your psychology background. Being a science major here, I've learned a lot more than just about faith transitions, but also knowledge about psychology and the human mind, which I really appreciate that perspective that you bring. And I feel like every time I come on this podcast, I learn something new every, every day. So just want to thank you for that. Sorry for the lengthy Intro.

Guest 3 [02:27:53] Thank you, but yes, yes, My name is Dallin. I am a student here at suu. I'm in my third year. I'm a junior. You're majoring in Human Nutrition. I'm from Davis county originally. I've lived there for most of my life. I was raised in a very orthodox Mormon family.

Guest 3 [02:28:11] We were very much by the book. We were sort of the IT family. My family has always had high callings in the church. We've always kind of maintained that perfect image of what a perfect Mormon family should be.

Guest 3 [02:28:23] And all growing up, I never really had any doubts or anything towards. Towards my faith or towards the church I was all in. We had family home evening every week, scripture study every morning. So really I had quite the idealistic childhood growing up in a church in suburb Davis County, Utah.

Guest 3 [02:28:41] Well, after I graduated high school, I served a mission for two years in the Dominican Republic. I did come home a little bit early due to Covid in March of 2020. And after that was when I realized my gay identity. I am also a gay man here at suu. And this is sort of a second coming out to me because although I am out to many of my close friends and a few family members, I've never declared that publicly. So I guess this is sort of a big step for me as well.

Guest [02:29:09] Thank you.

Guest 3 [02:29:12] So, yeah, after I came back from my mission, when I found out my identity, I started exploring other questions, queer spaces within the church. And I just want to also give a shout out to Charlie Bird eventuality for starting the conversation within Mormonism. Their voices really helped me navigate my space.

Guest 3 [02:29:30] I had never had a, I guess, gay identity modeled for me ever in my life before I read Charlie's book. And that's when I first realized that that might be my identity. So I just want to thank him for that and for the perspective that he brought into my life because. Because I don't really know where I'd be. I think without that.

Guest 3 [02:29:49] About a year ago, I decided to step away from the LDS Church. I was sort of willing to be a martyr for my religion as long as it didn't harm anybody else. Although I knew it harmed me, I wanted to stay in.

Guest 3 [02:30:06] But when I realized that the Mormon church harmed a lot of other people besides just me, that when I sort of had more of a faith transition and a faith crisis and I came across other historical issues of the church like the CES letter and other things. And that's when my shelf sort of broke. I had sort of an intimate moment where I prayed all night to God, wanting it to be true. I really wanted to stay in, and I wanted Mormonism to be true. But after that night, I got no answer. And so that's sort of when everything came to crashing down. And ever since, I guess I've just been rebuilding.

Guest 3 [02:30:40] So as since this has happened fairly recently, this has all happened at my time here at suu. I realized I was gay here at suu. I have gone through my faith transition here at suu, and I feel sort of a little bit inadequate to be here today and to represent SUU as a gay man, because I don't feel that I've been very active in the gay community here. I didn't even know that the Q Center opened up until, like, last week.

Guest 3 [02:31:05] Well, I guess it did open last week, but I didn't know that it was a thing that was opening. I think the only time I've ever been into the center for Diversity and Inclusion is when I had to steal their popcorn machine back for the Ambassadors. So I haven't been involved as much as I've wanted to, but I guess I sort of want to express the positives that have come from Jeffrey R. Holland to just express. Explain a little bit about how that has impacted me as a gay man on campus. Like I said, I have felt a little bit invisible here. I never knew that there was so much support for the queer community and so many voices to be heard.

Guest 3 [02:31:42] And so when the announcement on Instagram was first made, I didn't think much of it. I saw it and I thought, well, that's interesting that they would invite a speaker like that here who has said harmful versus remarks towards. Toward the LGBTQ community. But I didn't think much of it until I started reading the comments. And to see the overwhelming support towards the LGBTQ community and seeing everybody defend the queer students at SUU was really an empowering moment for me to see the support that we do have here at suu, as well as during the.

Guest 3 [02:32:20] What was it called when Mindy opened up the. What we had yesterday? Yeah, the listening sessions. As well as during the listening sessions. It was really empowering to see everybody there and to see the community that we had. I just want to note, too, that there were a few people that came out during that listening session, and I just want to congratulate them for their coming out publicly and just commend them for their courage, because I know that's something that is super hard to do.

Guest 3 [02:32:45] And I think it goes to show that there wasn't big sense of community that we had there in that listening session. I also want to note that some of the other positives that have come from this are all the chalk that was drawn around campus. There were some rainbow chalk that was drawn on the stairs going up to the Electronic Learning Center. And I just remember walking down the stairs and looking at this chalk and just thinking, like, is this real? Am I here? Did these people really do this for me here on my campus?

Guest 6 [02:33:12] To.

Guest 3 [02:33:12] Did they really write, you belong in rainbow letters outside of the student center? Because as somebody who was felt invisible on campus, as a gay man, it just meant the world to me to see that sort of support and to know that I'm wanted and that I am loved here. And even if the upper leadership can't show that through their actions, at least the student body can show that through their support here on campus.

Guest 3 [02:33:34] So I just wanted to give those remarks, too. As far as my concerns about Elder Jeffrey R. Holland's speech, from an institutional level, I think the impact isn't necessarily in the words that he might say, because I think that the administration has tasked him with a speech on the history of Southern Utah. So I don't know that he will bring any hateful rhetoric here at suu. But I think the harm is endorsing an individual that has incorporated, encouraged violent and hateful rhetoric against minority groups here on campus, especially LGBTQ people. And so I just think that goes to show, you know, what does that say about our organizational values here on campus if we're allowing a person to have a bigger platform who has endorsed these sort of words and who has not apologized for them yet?

Guest 3 [02:34:23] I think our actions speak much louder than our words. And I think these actions of the administration here are speaking very loudly. And I want to hold them accountable, accountable for that and help them know the damage that they are causing by their actions.

Guest 3 [02:34:35] I also want to just bring up the argument of what does this mean for the future reputation of SUU as an institution if we do allow somebody like Jeffrey R. Holland to come speak at our commencement graduation? I have heard that there is talk of queer students wanting to leave campus. There are talk of faculty and staff looking for other jobs, possibly not coming here. And so this place that I've come to love and that so many of our queer students love, it's really. It's sad to see that this might be a place where our reputation will be tarnished for acceptance and love, and that people may not want to come here anymore because of the speaker that is being brought here.

Guest 3 [02:35:10] And so that is one of my worries, is that I want this campus to be a place where everyone can feel safe, and I want that representation to be here. But that may not be conducive to bringing Jeffrey R. Holland here as a speaker.

Guest 3 [02:35:24] And I just want to say that even if the administration does not choose to remove Jeffrey Holland as a speaker, the least amount of action that I would like to see from them is at least a change in the process of selecting a commencement speaker at graduation. If that. If anything comes from this. I hope that we, as SUU T birds and as a Cedar City community, we can have more of a voice and a say and who gets chosen as a commencement speaker so that we can hopefully pick somebody who represents us as a community and also represents SUU values.

Guest 3 [02:35:57] I guess that's sort of everything I had in mind to say. I don't want to take too much time. I just want to thank everybody who came on and supported us, everybody who's watching, anybody that I know.

Guest 4 [02:36:06] Hello.

Guest 3 [02:36:09] Thank you so much for having us, John.

John Dehlin [02:36:11] Beautiful, beautiful. Dallin. Thank you so much. Much. I have a quick question for you, Dallin.

Guest 4 [02:36:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:16] I'm not. I'm not asking you to be a representative of all. Of all gay men at suu, obviously. And at the same time, I'm gonna ask you. Because this question, you may have insight that others on the panel won't. I'm curious why there's only one gay man on this entire panel, and if that's just luck or random or if you have any theories on why that might be. Oh, I'm sorry. There might be others, so I don't want to.

Guest 3 [02:36:43] Okay. Yeah, I can give my insight.

John Dehlin [02:36:45] I'll just say this. It seems like gay men are underrepresented potentially on this panel. I'll say it that way. Do you have any theories on why that might be true other than just random or accidental?

Guest 3 [02:36:58] Yes. So my experience with this panel. So I actually, like I said, I have not been very involved in the LGBTQ community here on campus. Campus. My good friend Brooke, she just barely had to leave to go take a test, but she was the one who invited me on this panel. Actually, she invited me a few hours earlier today. So this was something a little bit on the spot, which you don't feel completely prepared to be here. But I could not turn down the opportunity to come here and be part of this panel. The reason that Brooke did invite me was because we are in a nutrition class together.

Guest 3 [02:37:27] We are both nutrition majors, and we are working on a project on Saturday together. And as we were working on this project, it was a one on one sort of project, an interview sort of format. We just got talking and connected more, and we figured out that we had a lot in common, especially with faith transitions and with experiences with the queer community. And so that's how we connected, actually, just barely on Saturday.

Guest 3 [02:37:48] Before that, Brooke was just somebody who I knew in class, in passing. So through that conversation that me and Brooke had on Saturday, through that assignment, she got to understand that I am a gay man here, here on campus. And I figured out that she is somebody who is involved in the queer community here.

Guest 3 [02:38:03] And so earlier today, she contacted me asking if I would like to be here on the panel. And so I said yes. I think there were maybe a few other gay men who were going to be on the panel earlier, but ended up declining for whatever reason.

Guest 3 [02:38:18] So I was not very much behind the decision of who was recruited on this panel. I can't say for myself why I am the only gay man, but I'm proud to be here and represent.

John Dehlin [02:38:29] Okay, well, I mean nothing disrespectful by the question. I'm, I'm just. I was just kind of curious, and if there's anyone on the panel who I did not include in terms of people who might self identify as. As gay men, again, I meant nothing disrespectful by that. Maybe I should have said gay cisgender men. I don't know. I'm still learning myself how to talk through all these issues. But thank you again. D. Yes. Okay, so I do have one question that I want, and this isn't me playing devil's advocate, but this, this is a question I, I wanted to throw at you as sort of a question that maybe some listeners or viewers might be wanting to know.

Debate on Free Speech and Commencement Speakers

John Dehlin [02:39:11] And I think I've seen at least a couple comments in the live stream basically saying this. It is. I. I can imagine there being LGBTQ allies or even LGBTQ individuals who are totally LGBTQ affirming, who are, you know, pro LGBTQ in every way, but just would say that they don't believe in censorship or that they don't believe in what some would call cancel culture, and that, you know, people who have a really strong commitment to, quote, freedom of speech might say, you know, once we start going down this road of, of, you know, canceling or, you know, filtering people based on ideas, it becomes a slippery slope where we start to really impinge on a cherished foundation of the US Constitution, which is the, the freedom of speech.

John Dehlin [02:40:10] Or the or the right to speak. I will also reference a Deseret News article. I'm not going to mention one of the authors because I'm not a fan of the particular author, but I will say Tom Christopherson is one of my favorite humans on the planet. He is a gay believing brother of D. Todd Christopherson, who's an apostle. But Tom Kristofferson is someone I love and deeply respect. And he did write a Desert News article co authored with another gentleman. And the article is called We've Witnessed Campus Cancellation Campaigns. Elder Holland Deserves to be Heard at Southern Utah University. This surprised me, Gerardo, and I don't know if it did you as well, because we heard Tom Christofferson speak out on a podcast.

John Dehlin [02:40:59] I think it was Faith Matters. Faith Matters, where he basically was willing to publicly express his disappointment in Elder Holland's musket talk. Etc. But you can. I guess you can do both. You can be disappointed in Elder Holland's speech and rhetoric and still believe passionately and fight for free speech, or be against what some call cancel culture. And in this article that I'm referring to in the Deseret News, you know, these two authors basically just say whether you're conservative or liberal, once we start canceling people on other sides of the spectrum, we start really limiting and narrowing the conversation, and that does damage to the overall community and discourse.

John Dehlin [02:41:42] So I know that what I just said is going to be probably very triggering to many of you, but I'll just ask panelists to raise their hand and give people a chance to respond to this question about just basic cancel culture. Let's start with Alexa.

Guest 3 [02:42:02] First, I want to say that I totally agree and that, you know, censorship on either side does lead to a reduction in overall discussion, and that does nothing for the for our larger society as a whole. With that being said, one of the speakers yesterday, who is a dear friend of mine, quoted. I can't remember what he quoted, but it was your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose. And I think that that's pretty well encompassing of how Holland's First Amendment rights don't have a place at a. He doesn't deserve a podium at SUU because he has elsewhere to speak. And his free speech is not being limited in that way. He's not running into constitutional, you know, the words escaping me. But his constitutional rights are not being infringed upon. He's just not being given a platform that's inappropriate for him to use.

John Dehlin [02:43:10] Beautiful. Okay, thank you, Alexa. Either Robby Or Mikey has. Has said that. That one of them wants to comment. So let's give Robbie or Mikey a chance to respond to this question about. And please unmute yourself. Robbie slash Mikey. Absolutely.

Guest 6 [02:43:27] I kind of mentioned this earlier, but

John Dehlin [02:43:30] is this Robbie or Mikey?

Guest 6 [02:43:31] This is Mikey, and Robbie does have something, too. And. Okay, I'm gonna give it over, if that's okay.

John Dehlin [02:43:36] Yeah.

Guest 6 [02:43:37] So one thing I mentioned before, and I will reiterate, is that different opinions are perfect until it comes to violent metaphors. And I would say that on both sides, every side, as soon as you start using, I don't know, like weapons as metaphors and different things like that, it just crosses a line, in my opinion. That's my opinion. And then.

Guest 5 [02:44:03] Do you want to talk about what you want?

Guest [02:44:05] Yeah. So this is Robbie. And what I have to say is a lot of times when people bring up this free speech argument, it's about politics. You have the right to a different political opinion. And while that is true, what we're talking about isn't necessarily about politics. It's about human rights. And the more we push this. Oh, it's free speech. It's free speech narrative. That's how we get into situations in not just this particular issue, but in the culture in general where a lot of the trans community, my community, is in danger now because people think that their right to free speech allows them a right to be hateful. And I think that's where this main issue is. It's not about your right to free speech. It's about your right to be hateful.

Guest 6 [02:44:51] And people's lives is just a more serious issue than just any other opinion being thrown out there.

John Dehlin [02:44:57] So that's beautiful. Okay, thank you, Robbie. And Mikey Odge wants to go next.

Guest 2 [02:45:09] Yeah.

Guest 7 [02:45:09] Right along with what Robbie was saying with the politics thing. We have that in our Constitution so that you can't get arrested for speaking out against the government. No one is trying to punish Jeffrey R. Holland. They are not. I taking away money for. I don't know if speakers get money. I think he already has an honorary degree. He's not really losing anything or getting harmed by not speaking. And so I feel like it doesn't necessarily line up with what they meant when the Constitution was written, like the spirit of the law, not the letter of the law kind of vibe. But I also wanted to reference what Alexa said back when she spoke about what she said in the listening meeting about women and the way that Holland perceives women and the reason why I think that it is inappropriate for Dr.

Guest 7 [02:46:07] Holland to be speaking at our commencement is because he doesn't view me as a person, as a genderqueer woman, feminine presenting person. However we're putting that at the time, someone who uses all pronouns, the. There's no way that Jeffrey R. Holland is going to respect that. And if I ever went up to him and was like, yo, my name is AJ I use any pronouns, never would refer to me as he or they. Because Holland does not respect queer people. And Holland does not respect women.

Guest 7 [02:46:41] He respects CIS straight white men who are part of the LDS Church and have enough money to give him. And I don't think that he should be given a platform where commencement is supposed to represent anyone. Those are his own words from the talk where he bashed Matt Easton. Commencement is supposed to represent everyone. And he does not. He does not represent anyone. Nor does he support everyone, nor does he like everyone.

Guest 7 [02:47:10] And my best friend is graduating this spring. The love of my life, who is a bisexual man. And I know that he does not feel comfortable with Holland speaking because I see my best friend now in a loving relationship with another man.

Guest 7 [02:47:31] And Holland does not respect their relationship. He does not respect my best friend, and I don't respect Holland because of it. It's difficult to. I. You can see where I'm going with this.

John Dehlin [02:47:45] Yeah.

Guest 7 [02:47:45] If he support everyone, it's commencement. He has other places to speak where people think that his opinions are valid.

John Dehlin [02:47:54] Beautiful. Thanks, Hodge. All right, let's go to Emma and. Yeah, unmute yourself.

Guest 3 [02:48:00] Thank you.

Kate [02:48:01] Yeah.

Guest 2 [02:48:02] In response to the people that are saying, like the freedom of speech argument

John Dehlin [02:48:07] that you brought up.

Guest 2 [02:48:08] In response to that, I like to show the pro. Like the right to protest, the freedom to protest peacefully, which is exactly what people here on campus are doing. We're not. We're trying not to spread hate towards the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. We're trying to sow our perspective as allies, as members of the community and otherwise.

Guest 2 [02:48:37] And the people here on this panel are here to speak for those who may not feel comfortable sharing their voice or who may not be able to share their voice because of circumstances that Robbie and Mikey outlined. And we want to make them feel comfortable. So it's not necessarily. Necessarily the fact that we think he shouldn't have the right to speak. Odd said it perfectly. Where he has the right to speak, but he can speak elsewhere. He has other places to speak that align with his values. And SUU does not or has shown that they don't align with those values in past. But more presently, it's up for a little bit of question. So I just, just like to remind people that we are exercising our right to protest, and we have that right as well.

John Dehlin [02:49:30] Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you, Emma. Gerardo.

Gerardo Sumano [02:49:36] Okay, so I do have a couple thoughts, and one is that I believe that institutions, especially federal funded institutions, institutions that are funded with taxpayer dollars, have the responsibility to prevent the spread of any kind of harmful rhetoric or content, and they have the responsibility to protect vulnerable people.

Gerardo Sumano [02:50:08] Hate speech and violent rhetoric are serious issues that can have devastating impacts on individuals as we, we have heard a lot of you talk about. So I do believe that the university, a public university, has a responsibility to protect those vulnerable people and also maintain its reputation. You know, so bringing up, you know, why Holland is a controversial speaker to be invited at commencement, I think it's, it's a, it's a great point. And then one. Another thing that I just wanted to mention is that I think it was Robbie or Mikey who brought this up. But there's. To me, there's a difference between disagreeing on politics and religion.

Gerardo Sumano [02:51:03] And it crosses a line when it comes to disagreeing with someone's identity or sexual orientation, which is something that you can, you don't choose and you cannot change. You can always change your political affiliation, you can change your religion, but we didn't choose our sexual orientation or gender identity. And so fighting against or speaking against or believing against someone's core identity, to me, crosses a different line. But, yeah, that's what I wanted to say.

John Dehlin [02:51:40] Okay. Okay. Thank you, Gerardo. Well, this has been a super powerful panel. It's gone at least 52 minutes more than maybe we had planned. However, we don't want to end just as beautiful as those statements were. We think it's really important to end with some calls to action. So it, maybe we'll bring it back to Kate. And I'm going to be sharing in the comments some resources and some elements of the call to action. We're going to ask Maven to include these items of call to action in the Description both on YouTube and on Facebook and in the show notes on the blog. But, Kate, do you want to talk us through for those who want to help use their power, their voice, their platform, their privilege in support of helping SUU do the right thing. What are some calls to action that you want to share, Kate?

Calls to Action and Closing Reflections

Kate [02:52:39] Yeah, I just want to encourage everyone to use your voice. You can send emails to the chair, the vice chair, and the board of trustees. I think I can give those to John and he can share them. There's also a feedback form for anyone who wants to provide feedback on the. On the commencement speaker. Specifically for providing feedback on the commencement speaker. There's also a walkout planned. It will be held at the library quad on SU's campus. This will happen on Thursday, March 23, from 11am to 1pm everyone's welcome to attend. This will be peaceful show of queer joy, pride and solidarity. We won't tolerate any violence or hatred. Please be peaceful. Please be kind. Take care of your neighbors. We love everyone. Just treat everyone with respect and kindness. There's also a petition on change.org that we can also provide the link for. Sign it, please.

John Dehlin [02:53:44] You have a voice.

Kate [02:53:44] Use it. And if you know queer person suu, reach out. Give them a hug, send them a text. Anyone at su, offer them your support. We're proud to be tay birds. We're proud to be community. And as much as we can come together, support and love each other, we should.

Guest 2 [02:54:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:04] Beautiful. And we're pasting. We're pasting these right now into the comments. And that's why I haven't changed the screen to me. There we go. And did you mention the feedback form or did I miss that? I'm sorry if I missed your description of the feedback form, but I'm about to paste it. So we describe that one more time what it's for and what it is.

Guest 2 [02:54:29] Yeah.

Kate [02:54:30] So the feedback form was distributed as a QR code at the listening sessions. It's for. Specifically for providing feedback on the SU's commencement speaker for 2023.

John Dehlin [02:54:42] Okay. Sorry if I. Sorry if I missed that before, but thank you. Okay, so those are the calls to action. And this has been just a super cool and amazing panel. Let me go ahead. Several people had to go take tests or do other schoolwork. Here's a final shot of the panel. There's Gerardo, but I want to thank all the panelists that had to take off.

John Dehlin [02:55:10] But I also want to thank Mabel and Robbie and Mikey and Kate and Odge and Hannah and Tanner and. And Brooke and Dallin and Alexa and, you know, those who had to leave as well, who I'm not mentioning, and Gerardo for helping to make all this possible.

John Dehlin [02:55:29] Y' all are heroes to us. Y' all are doing really important, pioneering work. I remember when I was young, learning about the civil rights movement, learning about the marches on Selma and the Alabama, you know, the bus boycotts, and thinking that I was, you know, denied the opportunity to be a part of.

John Dehlin [02:55:54] Of some sort of civil rights struggle so that I could Use my voice and stand up. And what I just want to note for all of you is that you are doing it. You are raising your voices, using your power.

John Dehlin [02:56:09] You are putting yourselves on the line in some ways very. In a very real way that that even potentially threatens your safety. Just like the. The protesters in the south in the early and mid-60s. You're all doing that today right now in your communities where it makes a big difference. And you deserve to be honored and respected because you are the voices and the faces of tens of, you know, thousands, if not hundreds of thousands. Well, I would say thousands of SUU students, tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of Utahns and, you know, millions of people around the United States and who knows how many around the world.

John Dehlin [02:56:53] So we all give a big old wave and just. Can I just tell you guys how much we love and thank and appreciate all of you for speaking up? Thank you. And. And I guess I. I guess I do want to say a special thanks. Not to diminish anyone's contribution, but I. You know, I do want to give a special thanks to Kate and AJ and also to Brooke, because they played a really key role in you help them make me aware of this, and then helping to organize and, you know, to make this. These three hours as high quality as they were. So thank you, Kate and A.J. thank you.

Guest 4 [02:57:35] Thank you.

Kate [02:57:36] I want to thank you for giving us a platform and. And it's. I. You know, I wouldn't be able to share my voice and have my friends share their voices without your help, and I really appreciate that. I'm so thankful to be able to show people that, you know, my. My love's not a challenge, and this affects me, and this affects many other people. And thank you for helping us.

John Dehlin [02:58:06] Oh, it's a. It's a sacred honor, right, Gerardo?

Guest 7 [02:58:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:58:10] Gerardo's. You're kind into this stuff, too, aren't you, Gerardo?

Gerardo Sumano [02:58:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:13] Yeah. Yep. Well, it's our pleasure. Go T birds. Is that. Is that what I'm supposed to say? Go T birds. Yeah. You guys want to show the teebird signal? Everyone show the teebird birds. Let's do it. Gerardo, you want to do the T bird sign? Gerardo?

Guest 6 [02:58:27] All right.

John Dehlin [02:58:27] We're doing the T birds. Go T Birds. I'm. I'm an aggie and a cougar, but today I'm a T bird. All right, you guys take care. Please stay in touch. Let us know if there's any way we can support all this going forward. This was a beautiful three Hours. Yeah. Love. Let's all do the love sign as well. I'm all over that. Love. Let's love everyone. And I'm sure Robbie and Mikey are showing their T bird and love signs as well. All right, everyone, thank you so much. Thanks, Gerardo. It's always great to have you.

Brooke [02:58:59] Yeah.

Gerardo Sumano [02:59:00] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:59:01] And thanks to everyone for joining us today on Warm Stories. Thanks to Maven for doing the. The stuff behind the scenes today, and thanks to all the commenters on Facebook and on YouTube. We had some people do super chats. Your donations are really helpful to pay for the expenses that cover this stuff. I'm not going to be soliciting donations on. On episodes like today, so I'm going to just say we. We want to. I want to personally give my congratulations to President Mindy Benson for how elegantly and respectfully it sounds like she has handled the aftermath of this decision.

John Dehlin [02:59:40] Sounds like. Mindy Benson, you're an amazing, loving, kind, compassionate human. So shout out to you for that. We really do hope, President Mindy Benson, that you make the right decision here. I think the more moral, morally correct decision. I think we've made a pretty. I think the panelists have made a pretty compelling case that we all kind of know what the morally correct decision here is given the vulnerable population that we're talking about. So, President Mindy Benson, I tend to think you're going to be making the right decision here, and I hope you do.

John Dehlin [03:00:13] And I hope that all of us can. Well, I think no matter what, I think any Utah University is going to think twice before they make this mistake again. So in some ways, I think, I think very, very important things have already happened, not just at suu, but also outside of suu.

John Dehlin [03:00:34] So that's the thing I just want to say to Elder Jeffrey R. Holland. You know, I, I met you at byu. You were my teacher in Book of Mormon class at byu. I played tennis with you at BYU when I was a student there. I dated your daughter Mary, briefly.

John Dehlin [03:00:52] I met your wife Pat. We sang, you know, I think happy Valentine's Day to you two or on your anniversary. And I've met you a couple times since then, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland. And I just want to say, personally, as the father of several queer children, as a BYU alum, as an Aggie, and as someone who cares about Utah, and as a citizen of Utah, Elder Holland, I just want to make a personal plea for you to do the right thing. I think the right thing for you to do is to step down, find some graceful way to Step down so that you're not forcing other people maybe to make this decision, that you take accountability, that you have some, you know, work to do and maybe some repentance to do, not to grandstand or shame you.

John Dehlin [03:01:31] I want to encourage you, Elder Holland, to follow the steps of repentance that you taught us all to follow and apologize. This is a beautiful opportunity for you to follow your own teachings, the church's teachings and the example of Jesus Christ.

John Dehlin [03:01:47] Say you're sorry, apologize, make restitution. And this is, this could be an incredibly powerful moment and honestly a game changing moment for, for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints in the 21st century. And what if this is a watershed moment where things are never the same, Elder Holland, because you did the right thing.

John Dehlin [03:02:09] And then maybe, who knows, maybe then lots of universities will invite you to speak because you represent, you know, the, the principles of the person who you claim to be a special witness of. So that's my personal appeal to you. Elder Holland is someone who I have known and have met and have had several conversations with. And I, you know, I love you, so I hope you do that. Anyway, I hope, I hope you all do do well tonight. Please, if you can subscribe to Mormon Stories podcast on Facebook and on YouTube, please like right now, this episode and please share it as far and wide as you can.

John Dehlin [03:02:46] The more people that view this, the more people that share it, the more that there might be influence. Especially if you know anyone who has power, money or influence or pull to help influence this decision, please share this amazing episode with, with them. And who knows, maybe some hearts and minds will be changed. So that's all for today on Mormon Stories Podcast. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other.

John Dehlin [03:03:12] Go go T birds. Let's love each other. And we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care everybody, and we'll see you all again very soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.