Introducing the Lincoln Hypothesis Book

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host for today, John Dehlin. It is February 28, 2024, last day of February. And we are here today to what I think we're going to be doing is breaking some new historical ground. We're going to be answering the question, did the Book of Mormon inspire Abraham Lincoln to free the slaves and influence his position both on God and America? And, and, you know, America as allegedly a covenant people, et cetera. And of course, the reason why we're covering this topic is because Tim Ballard, the former CEO of Operation Underground Railroad, before he got super famous about Operation Underground Railroad, he published several books about American history. One of them, I think the book is called the Lincoln Hypothesis. Yeah, the Lincoln Hypothesis. And, you know, he's made a lot of money and Deseret book has made a lot of money sort of selling the idea to Mormons that the Book of Mormon is so incredibly awesome and Joseph Smith is so incredibly awesome that they shaped the future and the history of American Civil War and Abraham Lincoln. We're going to be bringing on today a face that will be familiar to all of you. We're bringing back Julia. Julia Sanders. Hey, Julia.

Julia Sanders [00:01:23] Hi, Julia.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] You're the one. I first learned about your research from your amazing TikTok. I think it's called Analyzing Mormonism. Right?

Julia Sanders [00:01:33] Yeah. So, like, when you had said that. Because this book, the Lincoln Hypothesis, was published in 2014, so that was 10 years ago. Has no one else done this type of research just to verify his facts?

John Dehlin [00:01:44] I'm not aware of any. If somebody has. I know that, like, Ben park just hates Tim Ballard's history and is critical of it, but I don't know that anybody's ever super fascinated.

Julia Sanders [00:01:53] And he's a really good historian, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:55] Yeah. Anyway. But you decided, just as a. Just as a, I don't know, amateur historian, I guess. I don't know if you consider yourself professional or not, but you decided to dig in.

Julia Sanders [00:02:08] Yeah. So I saw a clip on someone else's TikTok and I was like, I know something about Abraham Lincoln because of all the John C. Bennett research. And I. And I. This can't be true. And so that's what produced all this research. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] Yeah. So today we're going to be showing your attempt at vetting this allegation. Right. Or this hypothesis.

Julia Sanders [00:02:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:29] Okay. All right. So anything you want to say before. Before we jump in?

Julia Sanders [00:02:35] No. Like, I'm. I don't know how books like this get published without having Somebody verify things. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, well, let's go ahead and go to our first slide that you put together. And I think the first slide just kind of introduces the book. Do you want to introduce the book?

Julia Sanders [00:02:53] Yeah. So, like I said, it was published in 2014, and so this is just the description on Amazon, so I'm just going to read it. So. Abraham Lincoln became the 16th US president during a very dark time in American history. Author Timothy Ballard explores the crucial role that President Lincoln played to bring this nation closer to heaven. Readers will see Lincoln as a man inspired of God who invoked a covenant relationship between America and its maker, not unlike the national covenants invoked by righteous leaders in the Book of Mormon. In addition, the Lincoln Hypothesis reveals documented evidence that Abraham Lincoln did in fact, check out the Book of Mormon as he struggled with making some of the most critical decisions of his presidency. Did he read it? Did it influence him? Was the Book of Mormon a key factor in Lincoln's success and the healing of a nation?

John Dehlin [00:03:39] Yeah, I mean, that's. That's a lot of hype, right?

Julia Sanders [00:03:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] And, you know, I guess, to be fair, at the outset, he's calling it a hypothesis. So does that get him. Does that his get out of jail free card before we actually show the receipts?

Julia Sanders [00:03:55] Julia, I think some things should not be hypothesized, and I think there's enough evidence to show that this is one of those things.

John Dehlin [00:04:02] Yeah, yeah, we're going to. We're going to blow that hypothesis out of the water. I did want to make sure we show this. This is a slide that we used when the church issued its condemnation of Tim Ballard, but it showed at the time that the church issued its condemnation of Tim Ballard for being. I don't know, my memory is something morally dubious or morally suspect. It was selling something. I don't know. This slide shows something like 12 books being sold by Tim Ballard. And one of them at the bottom, right. You'll see the Lincoln Hypothesis as one of the books. So one of the things I think Tim Ballard wanted to make sure everybod know when he was denying that the church had condemned him is how much money Deseret Book had made off of his books. So I just wanted to show, like, for all the. Like, none of my books would ever be sold at Deseret Books. Clearly, they have a vetting process. I don't have a book, by the way, But. But clearly Deseret Book has a vetting process. And today we're gonna. We're gonna maybe show how. How. How thorough that vetting process. All right. All right, Julius, so should we show the first video just to kind of set the stage for. For his claim?

Julia Sanders [00:05:18] Yeah, so. So just to set the video up. So this is from. I think it's from the Nephite explorer. If I'm not. If I'm not. If I remember correctly, and I remember watching this as a member of the church or as an active member of the church. And so he's. He. This man is going around and he's, like, showing evidence for the Book of Mormon and things like that. So here he's interviewing Tim Ballard in his younger years. I guess this is like 10 years ago when it first came out, and Tim Ballard is explaining his book. So then we can watch the video.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] And I think viewers are letting me know that it's a leap year. So I think this isn't the last day of February. I think so thanks to whoever it is in the comments that's reminding me that this is not, in fact, the last day of February. All right, so let's go ahead and roll this video of a much younger. Much younger Tim Ballard. Here we go.

Julia Sanders [00:06:09] Then.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:06:10] What took place in the middle of Civil war?

Video Clip 1 [00:06:12] What happened in that time frame that.

Video Clip 1 [00:06:14] That. That changed this man's thinking?

Video Clip 1 [00:06:18] Abraham Lincoln, right? During this time, this process of crystallization, he checked out a book from the Library of Congress. This book is significant for several reasons. One is that he was only supposed to have it for two weeks, and he had kept it for eight months. It's also significant because he turned it back into the Library of Congress right at the end of what we know was his process of crystallization. He turned it in just days after he issued his preliminary Emancipation Proclamation to his Cabinet, as if to say, perhaps, okay, I've learned something from this. Okay? And the other reason is this book. What's in this book? It's a book that's an account of an ancient people who lived here in the Americas and lived under a covenant. Lived under a covenant likened to the covenants of ancient Israel. And they called this land a promised land. And they. And righteous. When the people were righteous, the Lord blessed them. When they were not righteous, they were cursed and awful things happened. It's a story that looks a lot like the Civil War. Now, the book he had, as controversial as this might be for people, was the Book of Mormon. Now, I'm not saying at all that Abraham Lincoln believed that it was some kind of a, you know, any kind of truth or that he thought it was a book of scripture from God. But I do know he had the book. And Lincoln didn't check out books to not to not read them. He read more. He was probably our most avid reader as a president. Fact or fiction? The Book of Mormon tells a story of a promised land, and it tells the answer to a calamity like a civil war, and that is the nation turns to God. Did Lincoln read this book and glean some idea? Did it at least inspire in his head that maybe I'm living in a promised land after all? Likely, because from that point on, after he issues that Emancipation Proclamation, he starts sounding a lot like the prophets that are reported to be prophets in the Book of Mormon, and he starts sounding like the prophets of the Old Testament, like a prophet presiding over a promised land.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Well, thank God you're already laughing. I can see you laughing. Julia, really quickly, I want to thank everyone for joining us on the livestream. And whether you're watching on the livestream or not, please do like this episode and subscribe to the channel if you're not. That really helps us with YouTube and the algorithms. And of course, we always thank our donors who donate@mormonstories.org and become monthly donors because we couldn't do this without you. Okay, so, Julia, why are you. What was making you laugh at that at that point?

Claims That Lincoln Was Converted by the Book of Mormon

Julia Sanders [00:09:04] Well, so many things. Like, we'll talk about a lot of things, but, like, just like, he's setting it, he's setting it up. So. So Abraham Lincoln had the book for eight months, and then he turns it in and then he. And then, like he says, days later, he writes this Emancipation Proclamation, which was inspired. He sounds like a prophet of God. I guess I laugh because I. I don't know. We can talk about it too. Like, I don't know if he's read the Emancipation Proclamation. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] I mean, there's ethics here because, number one, he's making money off the book. Number two, he makes money off of, like, tours of, like, going around and. Or at least in the past, leading people on historical tours back. Back east and then Deseret books, making money off of this book. So there are ethics here in terms of historical credibility, telling people inspiring things if they aren't backed up by the evidence. Really quickly, I want to talk about this claim that Lincoln was going through a process of crystallization. I watched a couple videos in prep for this interview, and he likes to tell this story of, I think he had a child die. And that sort of, according to Ballard, that puts Lincoln into, like, this dark night of the soul because one of his family members dies. And so then he, like, has, like, a domestic, you know, helper helping him. And, like, some family members of hers had died. And so he asks her where she gets her faith, and then she says, from God. And then Lincoln's like, well, tell me about your God. And he basically recounts this sort of idea that Lincoln had a crisis of faith because of the death of a family member, and that that's what made him turn to the Book of Mormon. I don't expect you. If there's any truth to any of that, but. But you. You probably heard. You probably heard that, right? Or did you not hear that?

Julia Sanders [00:10:51] I have heard that. I have heard that before. Now that you're saying it. I don't know. I don't know a lot of history of Abraham Lincoln. I just know. So I did a lot of research on this specific topic of the Library of Congress and things like that, and these books that. These other books that were checked out. I don't know very much about Lincoln's personal life. I just know that he did not like the Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:11:08] So we'll get to that.

Julia Sanders [00:11:11] Right?

John Dehlin [00:11:11] Okay. The only other thing, you know, it's so funny to hear him talking about, you know, the Nephite covenant and America being a promised land when we know that the Book of Mormon is super racist, that it's got the Nephites being white skinned and the Lamanites being dark skinned. And then he says it's likely in that video, likely that the Book of Mormon persuaded Lincoln to view America as a promised land. And I thought that was a stretch.

Julia Sanders [00:11:42] Yeah, I don't. And just full disclosure, I have not read the Lincoln Hypothesis. I just. So I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:11:50] I mean, we do need to preserve our brain cells. All right, what's this next clip we're going to be showing?

Julia Sanders [00:11:58] So this next one is from Mormon Book Reviews. It's Steven Beinecker. I loved his Mormon Stories episodes. And he brings on Rod Meldrum and Rod Meldrum. There's just a little section where Rod is talking about the Lincoln Hypothesis, and then he's giving his take on the book as well.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] All right, shout out to Steven Pininger. And let's roll the clip.

Speaker D [00:12:19] And it was about that same time when Tim was still working for the homeless. I think it was the Department of Homeland Security, if I remember correctly. And then he wrote another book called the Lincoln Hypothesis, which was just fascinating. I. I knew that Joseph Smith and Abraham Lincoln were contemporaries of each other, but I didn't. I didn't know if they had actually ever met or if they even knew about each other. And Tim gives a pretty good, you know, you know, pretty powerful information that they may not only have known about each other, but that, but that actually the Book of Mormon played an important role in US History. Again, as Lincoln, as Abraham Lincoln went out and actually checked out a copy of the Book of Mormon from the Library of Congress, had it for almost six months. And then right before, right after, he just came out with the Emancipation Proclamation, he then two weeks later, after he came out with the Emancipation Proclamation, where he basically went to his cabin, he says, you know, basically that slavery has not been the purpose of this war, but it is now. And, and it said. He said, you know, this is, this is what, you know, God has, has called me to, to, to make this war a lot more about slavery. And, and they said in his cabinet said, you know, if you do this, if you, if you come out with this man's replacement proclamation, you're going to be killed for this. And he said, this is what we're going to do. He says, you know, this is the will of God, and by God, we were going to. We're going to do this. He had just read the Book of Mormon and the parts about this covenant with God between the United States and, and God, you know, I should say America, you know, basically the promised land of God. And that gave him the strength to, to, to move forward with the, with the, the ward, actually, from that point on. It's a fascinating book. Tremendous research.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] Tremendous research. I mean, Rod Meldrum has always struck me as a nice guy, so I don't like to be critical of guys that are generally. Anyone who's generally nice, I guess. But that's so on brand for Rod Meldrum and I think a lot of his followers to just grasp on a conspiracy theory that's actually contradicted by the evidence, let alone supported by evidence.

Julia Sanders [00:14:54] Right, right. Yeah. One of the commenters said Mormons are a believing people. And like, and I was a Mormon and I was very believing too. I just think that that's. We cripple ourselves when we just take everything at face value and without doing any research ourselves. So, yeah, I feel like that's where Rod is in this is. He's just, he's just accepting what, what Tim Ballard has written because it supports his beliefs, specifically that the Book of Mormon took place here in the United States. So, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:22] The other thing is just this assertion that Like, Lincoln wasn't an abolitionist, that he was down with slavery, I guess, or at least not opposed to it until he read the Book of Mormon. That's such a bold claim.

Julia Sanders [00:15:35] I know. And then, like, the. The purpose. He's talking about the purpose of the Civil War not being at first about slavery. I. I don't know where he's getting that idea.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] I mean, so, yeah, people. I don't know, people that I don't know. I'd studied political science, and the professor that I had who objected to the Civil War being framed about slavery wanted to frame it as being about business interests or economic interests just to avoid having to confront the racism and the slavery issue altogether. And generally, these people are also opposed to the civil rights movement. So I'm just. I'm just confused that. That such a bold claim is being made. And I'm sure there's strong evidence that it was not the Book of Mormon that converted Lincoln to an abolition abolitionist sort of position.

Julia Sanders [00:16:26] Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] I don't know.

Julia Sanders [00:16:27] Anyway, and there's so many people held that position, too. Like John C. Bennett when he became the mayor, that was one of the first things he wanted to abolish slavery. And so, like, I don't know. There's just a lot of people that were of that mindset without. I don't know.

Speaker D [00:16:39] Yeah.

Julia Sanders [00:16:40] Yeah.

Mormons, Lincoln, and the 1840s Electoral Ballot

John Dehlin [00:16:41] All right, well, now we've got your amazing research, now that we've set this all up, Julie, so let's. Let's dive right in. What do you got for us?

Julia Sanders [00:16:48] Yeah, so I just wanted to set the stage a little bit with the relationship between the Mormons and Abraham Lincoln. So on. This is reported in the newspaper called the quincy wig on November 13th of 1840. And I don't want to read this whole thing, but what you'll see here is that 200 of the members of the church, 200 Mormons erased Abraham Lincoln's name from the electoral ticket. And so one of the. It goes on to say the Quincy Wig speaks of the erasure of Mr. Lincoln's name as a trick played upon 200 Mormon voters.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] And so now, in 1840, Lincoln wasn't running for president. Right. He would have been running for some state office. Correct?

Julia Sanders [00:17:22] Right. Right.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] Okay. Do you know what the office that would have been?

Julia Sanders [00:17:25] I don't actually. I should, but I don't.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] Maybe a member of Congress or something.

Julia Sanders [00:17:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:31] Okay. All right. But the Mormons, according to this article in the Quincy Wig. And Quincy is a city near Nauvoo, Correct?

Julia Sanders [00:17:41] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] Yeah. And it's Basically alleging shenanigans with the Mormons. Ballot tampering. Is that what this is saying?

Julia Sanders [00:17:49] Yeah, yeah, I would say that.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Okay.

Julia Sanders [00:17:51] Yeah. And then the next slide explains. It's John C. Bennett. He's giving his explanation as the mayor of Nauvoo. He's giving his explanation as to why they did that.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] Okay. All right. There. There it is.

Julia Sanders [00:18:05] Yeah. So in the Times and Seasons, this was published on January 1st of 1841. He gives his explanation. He says that they erased his name. Not. He says, not, however, on account of any dislike to him as a man, but simply because he was the last name on the ticket. And we desire to show our friendship to the Democratic Party by substituting the name of this other person for some. Some. One of the Whigs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he. And then he brings. He comes up and he's like, oh. And when I was getting the Nauvoo City charter passed, Abraham Lincoln came up to me and congratulated me on its passage, even though nobody read it. Um, anyway, so he's like. He's like, we don't. We don't dislike him. We just needed to erase his name and put another name.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] So that's. That's so shady. And by the way, when you. When you read like, no man Knows My History, and you learn about why people wanted to kill Joseph Smith, which, of course, we don't condone murder or lynching here, but part of it was these election shenanigans that Joseph Smith was involved in, of promising votes to one candidate, but then switching at the last minute, and this sort of election shenanigans that got public officials kind of angry.

Julia Sanders [00:19:12] Yeah. The political power in Nauvoo was a big push for his assassination.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] And I'd say the misuse of political power.

Julia Sanders [00:19:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] Right.

Julia Sanders [00:19:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] Yeah.

Julia Sanders [00:19:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] Okay. All right. So anything else about that last slide before we go to the next one? So they did it. I think that was good because they didn't want. They didn't want his name to show up last on the ballot.

Julia Sanders [00:19:34] Well, his name was. So you have the list of names, and his was the last. So they just erased it and then added the Democratic person or the wig person, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:19:41] Yeah. Okay. All right.

Julia Sanders [00:19:42] Yeah. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] Okay. All right.

Julia Sanders [00:19:45] And then the next slide shows this other book that was published. So the book is called the 50 years in the Church of Rome, and it was written by. It was published in 1886, and it was written by Charles. And I'm going to butcher his name. Chininque. Yeah. So he's quoting Abraham Lincoln. This is a conversation that he's remembering from June 9th of 1864. I don't know how that. So it is a later date. It's a later source. Abraham Lincoln.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Oh, no. 22 years later.

Julia Sanders [00:20:13] Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:13] Okay.

Julia Sanders [00:20:13] So he's saying. So he quotes Abraham Lincoln as saying there are two cankers are biting the very entrails of the United States today. The Ramish and the Mormon priests, I

John Dehlin [00:20:22] think is Romish, meaning like the Catholics. The. The. The.

Julia Sanders [00:20:27] I think so Catholic Church.

John Dehlin [00:20:28] The influence of the Catholic Church.

Julia Sanders [00:20:29] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [00:20:30] Okay. All right, keep going.

Julia Sanders [00:20:32] And the Mormon priests both are quietly at work to form a people of the most abject, ignorant and fanatical slaves who will recognize no other authority but their supreme pontiffs. Both are aiming at the destruction of our schools to raise themselves upon our ruins. Both shelter themselves under our grand and holy principles of liberty of conscience to destroy that very liberty of conscience to bind the world before their heavy and ominous yoke. The Mormon and the Jesuit priests are equally the uncompromising enemies of our Constitution and our laws. And so, yeah, I don't know if we need to read this whole thing, but. So he's calling them. He's calling them a canker. He's saying that they're aiming to destroy the schools. And he just keeps going on. There's just really negative opinion of the members of the church.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] Oh, and it's called Church of Rome. So, yeah, clearly this guy's. This Father Chiniqui is basically saying that Lincoln felt like the Mormons and the Catholics had a bad influence on the citizenship. Right. On the citizen. Okay.

Julia Sanders [00:21:34] Yeah. So. So. So right there you're seeing another. Or I guess you're seeing. Maybe it's for the first time. But the. Abraham Lincoln does not like the members of the church. He. So to say that he was inspired by the Book of Mormon is a different thing. And Ballard did say he's like. I'm not trying to say that he was converted by the. By the teachings of the Church. Clearly he wasn't. But anyway, I just wanted to make that point clear that Abraham Lincoln did not like the Saints.

John Dehlin [00:22:00] Yeah, yeah. And I think this anti bigamy statute that we're going to talk about would be a good evidence of that as well.

Julia Sanders [00:22:06] Oh, yes.

Lincoln's Library Checkout and the Books He Actually Read

John Dehlin [00:22:07] All right, well, let's go to. Because it all comes back to polygamy, as we all know, as we're about to find out. Okay, so let's actually dig into what you found out from the Library of Congress.

Julia Sanders [00:22:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] So tell us how you gathered these documents, like what the process was for you to actually do your research.

Julia Sanders [00:22:25] Yeah. So there's a blog that I think it's called Britannica. The Library of Congress has a blog. And so you'll see, because they've had this question, posted them before, of whether Abraham Lincoln did actually read the Book of Mormon because of this. I don't know if it's because of Tim Ballard's book, but you can go to their blog, and you'll see they have this huge post, and they show these little photographs of what I'm about to show. And so that's where most of that's coming from. And then I emailed the Library of Congress to get specific pictures, and they responded. So.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] Okay, we'll ask Maven, maybe in the show notes, to include a link to that. So this is what you're about to show us is an image that you got from the Library of Congress, or is it from the blog post?

Julia Sanders [00:23:04] It's just directly on the blog. It's just so the. Yeah, you can click on the link and it'll take you straight to it.

John Dehlin [00:23:09] Okay, good. We'll include a link to that so people can reference it. Maybe Maven can paste that right now into the comments. Okay, keep going.

Julia Sanders [00:23:16] Sure. Okay, so you'll see Abraham Lincoln's name is at the top of the page, and staff could check out books under the representative's name. And so. So in the blog, it says this. Borrow. This borrowing lodge or ledger from 1861 was for congressional representatives and executive branch members, essentially only those who were allowed to borrow books from the Library of Congress. And then it says each page is dedicated to a different representative with their names written at the top. So. So if that makes sense. Like, so Abraham Lincoln's name was the top so he could check out books.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] Where in that page is Abraham Lincoln's name? I'm having a hard time reading it.

Julia Sanders [00:23:48] Oh, sorry. It's at the very, very top. So you'll see that big, bold line, and then right above it, there's this little.

John Dehlin [00:23:54] Oh, that handwriting.

Julia Sanders [00:23:55] Yeah, the handwriting. That's Abraham. Yeah, that's Abraham Lincoln.

John Dehlin [00:23:58] Does this a president?

Julia Sanders [00:23:59] Ah, a Lincoln President is what I'm seeing. Us.

John Dehlin [00:24:03] Got it, got it, got it. Okay, thanks. My eyes are bad, so.

Julia Sanders [00:24:05] Oh, you're totally fine.

John Dehlin [00:24:06] Okay, so this is a log used to write down books that are being borrowed.

Julia Sanders [00:24:13] Right. And it could be borrowed by the President, by any of the staff, by. So. So it doesn't have to be him specifically. That needs to. That point needs to be very clear, is that it doesn't. We don't know if it was Lincoln specifically. It could have been anyone on his

John Dehlin [00:24:25] staff, so maybe even cabinet members.

Julia Sanders [00:24:28] Yeah. Yes. Yeah. We don't know who checked that book out, but it was checked out under his name.

John Dehlin [00:24:32] Okay. All right, so that's step one. Let's go to the next slide.

Julia Sanders [00:24:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:38] Okay.

Julia Sanders [00:24:39] Okay, so if you'll see, if you'll go to that spot, it'll show you the list of books that were checked out on November 18th of 1861. And again, it's hard to read. So if you'll go to the next slide, I just typed up what it says.

John Dehlin [00:24:51] Okay, so this is just a bunch of books with like, the name, what, the date and the book, basically. Right?

Julia Sanders [00:24:58] Right. Yeah. And it shows you, like, when it's due and things like that. Okay, so this is. This is me. I'm having. Having typed it all up. So you'll see there was 1, 2, 3, 4 books checked out on November 18th. And the top one, I kind of feel like it might have been checked out the day before, just of how it's written, but because it says volume three and it's referencing the book above it on the list. So. So at least. So at least these three books were checked out on November 18th. And so you'll see. So Gunnison's Mormonism, Hyde's Mormonism, the Book of Mormon, and then two, four days later, they checked out the. Somebody checked out the U.S. constitution, volume eight of 1783, and also volume eight of a different year of 1856. And then. And then Mormonism in all ages, and then Mormons or Latter Day Saints. So several books are being checked out, not just the Book of Mormon. So you have 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 different books concerning the topic of Mormonism that are being checked out within. Within a matter of days of each other.

John Dehlin [00:25:53] Okay. A bunch of. A bunch of Mormon books. Not just the Book of Mormon and

Julia Sanders [00:25:57] not just the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:25:58] Okay. And let's. I think now we're going to talk about what those, what those other Mormon books were. Yeah, right.

Julia Sanders [00:26:03] It's very important that you, that you see this in context of. It's not just the. If it was just the Book of Mormon that he checked out, maybe it'd be. Maybe it'd be different. But he's checking out. Whoever's checking these books out checks out a whole pile of them on this topic. Okay, so the first one that was listed was J.W. gunnison's. The Mormons or the Latter Day Saints. And all these books are available on archive.org you can just see the whole book there on archives. And so we can link those in the show notes too.

John Dehlin [00:26:27] And by the way, this, this book I've been digging into, it's quite interesting. I. I've been finding some really interesting things in it. I've been sharing those with you.

Julia Sanders [00:26:35] Yeah, those are really cool. Like, I'm hoping to publish all these again so that people can have them. So this one was published in 1856 and the topics that were covered in this book, you have polygamy and this. So the polygamy. The Mormons were outspoken about their polygamy in 1852. That's when they announced that they were living in. So this book was published just four years later. So that's why that's included in there. So yeah, we have, yeah, Polygamy, Treasure digging gold plates and a hat, which I thought was funny. The person whoever's writing it didn't quite understand that it was the seer stones in the hat, not the whole book. In the hat they talk about the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor and then they talk about the temple ceilings. And so just those are some things. And then for me, in my Mormon brain, I would see this book as an anti Mormon book.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] Yeah, for sure.

Julia Sanders [00:27:21] Because it's saying things that are not. They're like exposing the temple ceilings, they're talking about different things and like just anti Mormon topics. So like definitely not faith affirming.

John Dehlin [00:27:31] For sure. Yeah.

Julia Sanders [00:27:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] Okay, next book.

Julia Sanders [00:27:34] Okay, yeah. So then you have John Hyde jr's book, Mormonism Its Leaders and Designs. And this was published in 1857. And the topics covered in this book are polygamy. And they specifically call it anti Mormon to the fact that they're living polygamy, which I thought was so interesting. And that's an important piece that we're talking about today.

John Dehlin [00:27:50] Mormons are saying that it's anti Mormon to say that Mormons are practicing polygamy.

Julia Sanders [00:27:55] The writer of this book is saying that the fact that Mormons are living polygamy is anti Mormon and we'll talk about that too.

John Dehlin [00:28:02] So he's a believing Mormon that thinks polygamy was apostasy.

Julia Sanders [00:28:07] I think he's. I don't know that John Hyde is a Mormon, but I think he's saying the Book of Mormon says you shouldn't live polygamy and they're living polygamy. So it's anti Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:28:14] The title says John Hyde Jr. Formerly a Mormon elder and resident of Salt Lake City.

Julia Sanders [00:28:22] Oh, that's a good point. So, and we. Yeah, I'll have to look that. I have to look at that one, see if he's a believer, but okay. Or even jump to that page.

John Dehlin [00:28:30] So, okay, it was formerly a Mormon elder, so that's interesting. All right, keep going.

Julia Sanders [00:28:34] Yeah, yeah. So polygamy is covered, treasure diggings covered. The Kinderhook plates are covered, which is a topic I didn't even learn about until I left the church. The seer stone in the hat, why the witnesses could have been motivated to lie about seeing the plates and the temple sealing ceremonies. He's exposing them in this book. So again, this is another anti Mormon book. It's not faith affirming at all.

John Dehlin [00:28:53] Okay, that's two down. Okay.

Julia Sanders [00:28:56] Yeah. And then the third one on the list that's concerning the topic of Mormonism was the Book of Mormon. So I just threw that slide in there to show that.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] And you have published in 1830. But this is the third edition, which I think was printed in 1840. Is that right?

Julia Sanders [00:29:11] Yeah, the Library of Congress, the one that they have is the third edition. This one right here. 1840.

John Dehlin [00:29:16] Okay.

Julia Sanders [00:29:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:17] All right.

Julia Sanders [00:29:18] But again, they don't know. They don't. The Library of Congress doesn't know that the copy that they have is actually the copy that was checked out under Abraham Lincoln's name. So they're not sure. And we'll talk about that. We'll talk about that later too. So.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] Okay, okay.

Julia Sanders [00:29:31] Okay. So the next. So the. So you've got the two anti Mormon books, the Book of Mormon, and then you have this, this third anti Mormon book. This one's called. This one's J.B. turner, Mormonism in All Ages. And the topics covered in this book are the stone spectacles, the seer stones, just in general, that Mormons believed in a trinity, which I thought was really interesting, and the Solomon Spalding theory. And the reason, just to point out this book was published in 1842 and polygamy hadn't. Hadn't risen to its height yet. And of course, the Mormons, they. They didn't come out that they were openly living polygamy until 1852. And so those topics are not covered in this book. And even John C. Bennett's book hadn't even been released yet. Him exposing Joseph's living polygamy. So. So that's not in this book at all because nobody knew about it.

John Dehlin [00:30:13] So, okay, so that's three. Three anti Mormon Books in the Book of Mormon. Right, Right. Okay. I'm holding out hope that the fifth book is going to be pro Mormon in some way. Right. Faithful. Right.

Julia Sanders [00:30:29] Okay. Yeah. Okay, so this next one is by Henry Mayhew, and it's called Mormons or Latter Day Saints. And the topics covered in this book are polygamy, money digging, Kinderhook plates, the destruction, the novel expositor, the Spalding theory, and the temple ceilings and the rituals involved. So, yeah, so I don't. I would call this not. I would call this not faith affirming. So I would call it anti Mormon as well.

John Dehlin [00:30:52] So, so, so five Mormon books were checked out, four were anti Mormon books, and then the Book of Mormon.

Julia Sanders [00:30:59] Right.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] I mean, that's really. That's really a great find and it's really important, but just spell it out. Oh, okay, so you've got this next slide.

Julia Sanders [00:31:08] I have a slide just to be really, really clear. Okay, so five, like you said, five Mormon books were checked out. They're right there next to the Book of Mormon. They're right there on the list. I don't know how Tim Ballard overlooked that. But. So four of them are anti Mormon. And then you have the Book of Mormon, which of course is, you know, is their Book of scripture.

John Dehlin [00:31:23] Now, was this point made in the blog post?

Julia Sanders [00:31:26] No, the blog post wasn't. Wasn't gearing towards Tim Ballard at all. They. So I had to look and see which books they were, and I had to go and track them down on

John Dehlin [00:31:35] archive.org yeah, so this is an amazing slide. And maybe Tim Ballard didn't know. Right.

Julia Sanders [00:31:42] I don't know how. Because he says that there's documented evidence that he checked out the Book of Mormon. It's right there. All the other anti books are right there with it. Like you saw in the other slides. Like, I don't. I don't know how he overlooked that.

John Dehlin [00:31:53] Okay, all right. Okay. All right, so what's the next slide? This is good.

Julia Sanders [00:31:59] Okay, so this is. This is from the website. You can just go in and look. This is right on their blog. And so it says, this is from the Library of Congress blog. The library's copy of the third edition of the Book of Mormon contains only a single annotation, a pencil mark, along a few passages of the Book of Jacob, the third of 15 books. Although Abraham Lincoln did sometimes use a pencil while reading, library staff cannot say with any certainty that Lincoln drew this line.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] Okay, really quickly. Those who are geeks in Mormonism know that there's a very important little passage in Jacob that should be sticking out to us right now, especially in the context of four other anti Mormon books that all mention polygamy.

Julia Sanders [00:32:37] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] And that's the Jacob passage on polygamy. Right. And we'll get to that.

Julia Sanders [00:32:43] And Jacob's a big book. Like, he talks about the whole. The olive tree allegory. It's a big book. And like just a tiny section about we don't believe in polygamy and.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] All right, let's go back. Keep going.

Julia Sanders [00:32:54] Yeah. And so I don't know if we need to read this whole thing, but they'll just. They point out during. During its time in the general collections, it was available for consultation by all library users, many of whom would have also used pencils and could have marked the text. So again, they're saying, we do not know if Abraham Lincoln made this marking. We just don't know that. So.

John Dehlin [00:33:12] Right, right. But. But we know what passage is marked for sure. And we know that, you know, this is. It's the 1840 edition of the Book of Mormon, which is the edition that likely Lincoln would have had.

Julia Sanders [00:33:31] Yeah, it seems like it's. To me, it seems like that's the case. So. So it's plausible that they still have that.

John Dehlin [00:33:37] It's plausible that this was the Book of Mormon that Lincoln or one of his staff members would have had access to. We just can't say for sure. Is that fair?

Julia Sanders [00:33:47] Right? Yeah, that's fair. This could very well be the exact same copy that it was checked out under Lincoln's name. He sometimes marked in pencil. This book is still there and it has pencil markings. So like, so yes, you could point to this is absolutely the book that Lincoln read. Or you could say, we don't know for sure because this could be a different copy. Anyone could have marked the pencil and it could have been one of Lincoln's staff that read it and not Lincoln itself. So, like, both sides are valid. So, like.

John Dehlin [00:34:11] Okay, all right, all right. So this is a great. You got an email.

Julia Sanders [00:34:15] Yeah, so I. So I was really curious because I was like, wouldn't it be really funny if what was marked was that one passage in the, in the Book of Jacob that says we don't live polygamy. So I got the blog and I emailed them. I said, hey, I'm really curious. I'm doing a lot of research and can you just, can you point me what was marked in the Book of Jacob? And they're like, oh, yeah. So yeah, then this is their response to me. This is their Email back to me. So, yeah, so it says, dear Julia, thank you for your query on the Library of Congress blog. I don't even know how to say that.

John Dehlin [00:34:44] Bibliomania.

Julia Sanders [00:34:46] Bibliomania. So that's the name of the blog. I said it incorrectly. So the annotation is actually not underlining, but a light pencil mark in the margins on pages 124 and 125, which is in the second chapter of the book of Jacob. So, ding, ding, second chapter starting in the middle of the fifth paragraph. And then again they reiterate, it is highly unlikely that it was made by Abraham Lincoln. And then later it says, we are not sure if this copy of the third edition was owned by the Library of Congress in 1861. So that copy borrowed by the White House may have been a different copy than the Library of Congress that they know that the Library of Congress no longer owns. So he's just saying. They're just saying, we don't know for sure. So take all this with a grain of salt. So, yeah, so. And then they said, I've included pictures of these markings just for your benefit. So I really appreciate that.

John Dehlin [00:35:28] So here is the Book of Mormon.

Julia Sanders [00:35:31] Yeah. So this is Book of Jacob. So you'll see pencil markings. They're really hard to see, but in the margins of the page, there's like a big line down the sides, and then on the other side, there's a small little mark. So these are all in the Book of Jacob in the second chapter.

John Dehlin [00:35:48] Yeah, yeah. And as I'm read. As I'm reading it, I think it's, you know, I'm just reading it here, and it says, and now I make an end of speaking unto you concern concerning this pride. And were it not that I must speak unto you concerning a grosser crime, my heart would rejoice exceedingly because of you. But the word of God. Burthens. This is where the old versions of the Book of Mormon still have editorial problems. Burthens me because of your grosser crimes. And there's no. By the way, there's no chapters or verses here in this version of the Book of Mormon. It says, for behold, thus saith the Lord, this people begin to wax in iniquity. They understand not the Scriptures, for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms because of the things which were written concerning David and Solomon his son. Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines. Which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord. Wherefore, thus, saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem by the power of mine arm, blah, blah, blah. And then it goes on to say, wherefore, my brethren, hear me and hearken to the word of the Lord, for there shall not any man among you have, save it be one wife and concubines, he shall have none. For I, the Lord God, delighteth in the chastity of women, and whoredoms are an abomination before me. Thus saith the Lord of Hosts, wherefore the people shall keep my commandments. And then it goes on to say, for if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people, otherwise they shall hearken unto these things. So that's the Book of Mormon condemning polygamy as a whoredom.

Julia Sanders [00:37:44] Yeah, and I'm really glad you read that, because that's really strong language. A grosser crime. It's a whoredom. Like, just so many bad. Like, heavy words that are saying, this is so bad. We believe in only having one wife. Concubines, he shall have none. And then they get that little. The little add in where it's like, well, if God commands it, then, you know, it's okay.

John Dehlin [00:38:02] But if I want to raise up seed, which means polygamy needs to have offspring to be legitimate. Right, right. Okay. All right. And so you had a second slide. I don't know if.

Julia Sanders [00:38:13] Yeah, I just wanted to point out, because the markings are in the margins. Margins mostly, but there's that one. The part, if you'll. If you go back to where it says, for there shall not any man among you have saved be one wife and concomitants, he shall have none. The pencil marking has crossed out the word none, which, again, we don't know if this is Lincoln who's doing that. But I just think that was really interesting. Like, the person is, like, emphasizing they should not have concubines or extramarital or extra marriages. Anyway, so I just thought that was interesting. I just wanted to point out that in the text itself, it's been marked as well.

John Dehlin [00:38:45] And you're saying in the slide it's unlikely that these markings are from Lincoln?

Julia Sanders [00:38:50] That's just me reiterating what the Library of Congress person has told me.

John Dehlin [00:38:57] Not necessarily unlikely, but there's just no evidence. Right, Right.

Julia Sanders [00:39:00] Yeah, we don't know. So. Yeah. So unlikely. It's probably the wrong word. It's just. Yeah, we just don't know.

John Dehlin [00:39:05] Okay. Okay. So now we've established number one. It's clear that they were concerned about problems. Whoever was doing this research in 1862 was. Was clearly concerned about problems with the Mormon Church. It wasn't some faith exploration to build their buttress their testimony, or to gain inspiration about America being a chosen land under covenant from God. We're pretty sure that's not what was going on here. And we're pretty sure that they were probably interested in this issue of polygamy. And now this is when the year 1862 just becomes crystal clear when you look at the history books and what was also going on in 1862. So take it away, Julia.

Julia Sanders [00:39:53] Yes. So this next slide is about the Moral Anti Bigamy Act. And this was written into law on July 1st of 1862. And so I just want to read a little bit of it. So this is section two of the act. It says, and be it further enacted that the following ordinance of the provincial government of the state of Deseret. So that's Utah, so called, namely, an ordinance incorporating the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints passed February 8th in the year 1851 and adopted, reenacted and made valid by the government and legislative assembly of the territory of Utah to annul all acts and laws which establish, maintain, protect or countenance the practice of polygamy, evasively called spiritual marriage, however disguised by legal or ecclesiastical solemnities, sacraments, ceremonies, consecrations or other. How do you say that? Contrabances.

John Dehlin [00:40:47] Contrivances.

Julia Sanders [00:40:48] Contrivances.

John Dehlin [00:40:49] So clearly Congress. Congress is, you know, Brigham Young is his by 1862, after lying that they've been practicing polygamy for well over a decade, hiding it, misleading converts from Europe, etc. At some point, you what. What year did you put on Brigham Young finally publicly admitting that he was practicing Polygamy?

Julia Sanders [00:41:10] That the.52.52, yeah. So 10 years earlier.

John Dehlin [00:41:14] So. So Congress has had 10 years to fester and be worried about polygamy. I'm sure they're wondering whether they want to. There's increasing interest in incorporating western territories as states into the United States. And so by 10 years after Brigham Young admitting that polygamy was being practiced, Congress is passing what's called the Moral Anti Bigamy Act. And for those who don't know, bigamy is another way of saying polygamy. I think it's just referencing two wives instead of multiple wives. Is that right, Julia?

Julia Sanders [00:41:50] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] Okay.

Julia Sanders [00:41:51] And it's aimed directly at the church. They say an ordinance incorporating the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And they're like. And I also think it's really interesting, this language at the bottom where it says they call it spiritual marriage. It's disguised by ecclesiastical solemnities, sacraments, ceremonies, and those four other books that were checked out talk. I think almost all of them talk about these. The temple ceremonies and things like that, the sealing ordinances. And so whoever checked those books out, it seems to me that they were interested in the Mormon marriages in the temples and how they're getting around that legally.

John Dehlin [00:42:26] And that's interesting. For those who haven't checked out our LDS discussion series, we talked about William Law recently and how William Law was excommunicated for, quote, spiritual wifery, which was this weird usage of language to try and differentiate whatever crazy sex with John C. Bennett. John C. Sorry, did I see William Law? So, yeah, in our John C. Bennett episodes, you and Nemo and LDS discussions talked about how John C. Bennett was excommunicated for, quote, spiritual wifery, and how that was a weird usage of language to try and distinguish John C. Bennett's crazy sexual behaviors from Joseph Smith's. But what we learn from these books is that the Mormons actually used this idea of spiritual marriage or spiritual wifery as a way to deceive people later and to almost throw them off the trail of polygamy by saying, there's no spiritual wifery going on here. That's some of the stuff that I read. What's interesting about that to you, Julia?

Julia Sanders [00:43:38] Oh, yeah, that's great. So it just seems like in this Moral Anti Bigamy act, they're trying to encompass everything, whatever the church is doing, whatever the Church of Jesus Christ Slaughter Diseases is doing to make polygamy okay. However they're disguising it, that's wrong and it needs to stop.

John Dehlin [00:43:51] Cut that stuff out.

Julia Sanders [00:43:52] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Yeah. Okay. Okay, so it's clear that the Moral Anti Bigamy act was being worked on and was passed that very same year that those five books were checked out, including the Book of Mormon.

Julia Sanders [00:44:08] Yes. And then if you go to the next slides, I put that into a clearer image.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] Here we go.

Julia Sanders [00:44:13] Yeah. So just to be super clear, the Book of Mormon was checked out on November 18th of 1861 and returned eight months later on July 24th of 1862. And then, so one week later, after the Book of Mormon was returned to the Library of Congress, President Lincoln signed the Moral Anti Bigamy act into law.

John Dehlin [00:44:30] Okay, so if I'm remembering right, Ballard wants to say that the important dates are the checking out or returning of the Book of Mormon with Lincoln's giving of the emancipation Issuing the Emancipation Proclamation. Is that right?

Julia Sanders [00:44:50] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] And. And. But that's not. That's not the important date once you have the evidence.

Julia Sanders [00:44:56] Yeah. Right. So to me, it seems way more likely that Lincoln was checked. These books were checked out for the Anti Moral Bigamy act and not the Emancipation Proclamation, which doesn't even happen until 18. Until a year later.

John Dehlin [00:45:07] Okay. So I don't mean to steal your thunder. All right.

Julia Sanders [00:45:10] Oh, no, you're totally fine.

Utah, Slavery, and the Emancipation Proclamation

John Dehlin [00:45:11] So the next slide. Tell us about that. Oh, wait.

Julia Sanders [00:45:14] Okay, so I just.

John Dehlin [00:45:14] Did we make those points? I just. I was worried that I was stealing your thunder.

Julia Sanders [00:45:19] No, no, you're totally fine. Yeah, Just. Just that this act was being. Was being written while this Book of Mormon, or shortly after the Book of Mormon was returned to the Library of Congress.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] Okay.

Julia Sanders [00:45:27] So it was returned July 24, and it was. I think I maybe got that slide wrong a tiny bit. So I think so. So the. So the Book of Mormon is returned, and then a week earlier, it's signed into law. Right, so it was signed into law. What was it? July 1st?

John Dehlin [00:45:41] Yeah. And I think you've got it on a different slide.

Julia Sanders [00:45:43] Right, okay. Yeah, yeah. So sorry if I got the dates a little bit wrong. It's just. They're just within weeks of each other. The Book of Mormon being returned, it

John Dehlin [00:45:50] was checked out in advance for people around Lincoln or Lincoln to be able to understand this Mormon question. And then once the law is passed, either a week before, a week after, it's all returned, because now they don't need those books on Mormons anymore.

Julia Sanders [00:46:06] That's what I think. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:08] Okay.

Julia Sanders [00:46:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:46:08] All right. All right. Okay. So you. The next slide is slavery in Utah. Why are you wanting to talk about that?

Julia Sanders [00:46:15] Yeah. So the Emancipation Proclamation is about slavery. So I wanted to just. To just have us understand where the Mormons stood and where Utah stood as far as slavery right now, because I don't know, we'll just get to it, too. So let's talk about slavery for a second in Utah in this year.

John Dehlin [00:46:31] Okay. All right, let's do it.

Julia Sanders [00:46:33] Okay, so this is according to the historian Andre Resendez. So. So he says that Brigham Young officially legalized indigenous American slavery in the Utah Territory in 1852. So the same year that he announces that they live polygamy. And he says that each person is allowed to. To own this native person up for up to 20 years, and then. And then they would be released. And even. I don't know if we want to go into all the details. Details. But there was a Slave. There was a young girl. She was only 7, and she was purchased by. By. Or traded, I guess. I think the girl, the. The wife traded a gun for her by one of Brigham's wives. So he. So in his own home, he. There's a slave, this. This little girl who. Who stays with them for a long time. And so just how close slavery is to the Mormon prophet and to the leader of Utah is right in his home. So I just want to make that really clear, too.

John Dehlin [00:47:22] And some. Some have tried to advance the theory to me that Brigham Young actually made at least one Native American woman his polygamous wife. And I haven't.

Julia Sanders [00:47:32] I. I was just researching this as well, because on one of the censuses, it lists this girl, and I can't say her name. I can't pronounce her name, but they call. He can't pronounce it either.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] So he names her Sally Copper Puts or something like that. Yeah.

Julia Sanders [00:47:44] So in one of the censuses, they name her the 57th wife.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] Yeah.

Julia Sanders [00:47:49] So I. I don't know. This could be her. We don't know.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] Okay.

Julia Sanders [00:47:52] If that. How. Yeah. And so. So Mormons introduced slavery. Black. So there's two different types of slavery. You have black slavery, and you have indigenous slavery. So the Mormons introduced slavery into the Utah Territory with individuals such as Green Flake, Harklay Wales, and Oscar Crosby who were brought in as slaves. And then Brigham Young held. And you'll find this throughout Mormon history, but specifically, this quote comes from the Journal of Discourses, Volume 2. He held that blacks should be used as servants. And According to an 1850 census, there were a total of 26 black slaves. And in the 1860 census, there were a total of 29 slaves. However, many have pushed against these numbers because there were places in Utah such as Bountiful, where slaves were not counted on the census. And so we don't really know how many slaves there were in the Utah Territory. And then in 1857, it is estimated there was at least three different scholars who pointed this out. It was estimated that there were 400 indigenous slaves in Utah in 1857.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] And I'll just note, people don't. People of color. Black people don't like to be called blacks. So we're quoting. Just so people know we're quoting.

Julia Sanders [00:48:59] We want to make sure some of those are my words, because the word that they use, I don't use that. I don't like that other word.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] Oh, God.

Julia Sanders [00:49:06] So this is out of respect. And I. If this is still not respectful, I Apologize and.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] Oh, no, no, no, no, no. It's good. I wasn't calling you out either way.

Julia Sanders [00:49:14] I don't. I don't mean any disrespect, so.

John Dehlin [00:49:16] Okay, so. So the. I think the point you're making there is. Tell me if I'm. Well, do you want to say what your point is on showing that slide?

Julia Sanders [00:49:24] My point is that the Mormons believed in slavery, that their Mormon prophet has slaves in his home. This was not something that. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that the Mormons have the Book of Mormon. The members of the church believe very strongly in the Book of Mormon, and they were not inspired themselves to end slavery. They brought it in, they put it into law. I just don't see how Abraham Lincoln could have been inspired by the Book of Mormon. Having the Book of Mormon for only eight months. He was. He somehow was inspired by the Book of Mormon to end slavery. But the Mormons, who have had it for what, 30 years now, have never received that inspiration. So, like, where is Tim Ballard getting any of these ideas?

John Dehlin [00:50:06] Yeah, that's a brilliant point. And the point I was going to make is it's really irresponsible for Tim Ballard to give the impression that the Joseph Smith and the Mormons were anti slavery when not only, you know, this evidence with Brigham Young in the Utah territories is super relevant, but even Joseph Smith flip flopped on the issue. It's almost like he took the position on slavery of whatever was beneficial, depending on whether he lived in Illinois or Missouri or, you know, wherever. He almost. He almost. He was inconsistent. Sort of.

Julia Sanders [00:50:41] He was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:41] On that.

Julia Sanders [00:50:42] Yeah. It wasn't until he ran for president that he kind of changed his mind about that.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] Yeah. And again, he was running from Illinois, and that's more of a northern state, so. Yeah. Anyway, that's a great. That's a great point to bring up. Okay, so we've got the emancipation proclamation in 1863.

Julia Sanders [00:51:01] Yeah. So I just want to read some of the language of the Emancipation Proclamation. So it was put into law January 1st of 1863. And it says that on the first day of January in the year of our Lord 1863, all persons held as slaves within the state or designated part of the state, the people whereof shall then be in rebellion against the United States shall be then henceforth and forever free. And I won't read the whole thing, but if you read the entire thing, nowhere does it have any language from the Book of Mormon at all. Like, there's just nothing in there. And I don't even think it says anything about any Land of Promise or any of those words that Tim Ballard was using at the beginning to describe it. The. Well, I don't remember what else he says.

John Dehlin [00:51:42] Well, yeah, the Book of Mormon has the word the. And it has the word and several times. And it has the word free.

Julia Sanders [00:51:52] So, I mean, well, and then like in the Emancipation Proclamation, he's. He, like, talks. He talks a little bit about God, like, but it's like just one sentence of it, but, like, there's nothing else in there that reflects anything about the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:52:05] Yeah, so I'm just totally being silly.

Julia Sanders [00:52:07] Oh, yeah, no, no, you're fine. I just. I'm just. Lord. That. That he thinks that this came from the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:52:15] And then he tells people. And he tells people that.

Julia Sanders [00:52:17] Yeah, yeah. Wrote a whole book about it. So.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] Yeah. All right, so what's the next slide?

Julia Sanders [00:52:24] So this is just more of the same. So. So also, before writing the Emancipation Proclamation, there was a preliminary Emancipation Proclamation, and that was. That came out on September 22nd of 1862. And so again, this is long after the Book of Mormon. Two months after the Book of Mormon was returned to the Library of Congress, this is starting to be worked. So he gives. He releases this one. And then also, Tim Ballard, in his. In his little spiel that we watched at the beginning, he says that the Book of Mormon was turned in days later, but in reality, it was two months later. So he turns the Book of Mormon in, and two months later, the Emancipation Proclamation is written into law.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] Okay.

Julia Sanders [00:52:55] Or this September. No, excuse me. The draft, basically, of the Emancipation Proclamation was. Was written and issued.

John Dehlin [00:53:02] So not only does he ignore other important events that occurred right around the turning into the Book of Mormon, but he gets the date wrong on the Emancipation Proclamation, which he claims was tied to Abraham Lincoln's alleged checking out and reading in the Book of Mormon.

Julia Sanders [00:53:21] Right. So he, Lincoln or whoever checked it out, they turn it in, and then two months later, this draft of the Emancipation Proclamation comes out. And then what is, I think, five months later in January, is it actually written into law? So it's not days. I don't know where he's getting that idea. Maybe he was just on the spot, couldn't remember. But five months is very different than.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] And then here's the timeline. Here's the timeline to make it really clear. Right?

Julia Sanders [00:53:43] Yes. Yeah. So just to be super, super clear, so the Book of Mormon was checked out November 18th of 1861 and returned to July 24th of 1862. And like I just said, the preliminary Emancipation Proclamation was issued on September 22nd, and the Book of Mormon was returned two months earlier. And the Emancipation Proclamation was written January 1st of 1863, and the Book of Mormon WAS returned five months earlier. And so the Book of Mormon had long been returned to the Library of Congress during the drafting of these two documents. But it was not, and I should have added, the Anti Moral Bigamy act was written and put into law during the time that the Book of Mormon was checked out those eight months.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] Yeah, that should be added to the slide because the date, the date of the. Let's go back. Is that on that slide? July 1, 1862. I'm going to actually edit the slide. July.

Julia Sanders [00:54:32] That's really funny. I think I say it again in one of the other slides, too.

John Dehlin [00:54:36] Oh, yeah, one of the next slides.

Julia Sanders [00:54:38] Well, I kind of give another.

John Dehlin [00:54:40] Oh, okay, there it is. There it is.

Julia Sanders [00:54:41] All right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:42] Okay, so let's show that one.

Julia Sanders [00:54:43] Yeah, so. So I'm sorry, this is like I'm re. Re. Reiterating all of these things. I just want to make these really, really clear.

John Dehlin [00:54:49] Okay, let's do it.

Julia Sanders [00:54:50] So the Civil War. The Civil War begins in April. He checks out these books in November,

John Dehlin [00:54:54] two days later of 1861.

Julia Sanders [00:54:57] 1861. Yeah. And then he checks out these two anti books and then the Book of

John Dehlin [00:55:02] Mormon four days later between November 18th. I just want to slow down because people say we go too fast.

Julia Sanders [00:55:07] Oh, sorry, that's. I'm sorry, you guys, I talked really fast.

John Dehlin [00:55:09] The Civil War begins in April of 1861. Right. A year, A year, year and a half into Lincoln's. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe he would have been elected in 60 and started in 61. I'm not sure.

Julia Sanders [00:55:25] Oh, yeah, I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] But Civil war begins in April 1861. In November of 1861. Then three of those five books are checked out, including the Book of Mormon. And then in November 22nd, four days later, the other two anti Mormon books. So four anti Mormon books and the Book of Mormon are checked out in November of 1861. Okay, go ahead, Julia, take over.

Julia Sanders [00:55:51] Yeah. So then July 1st of 1862, the Anti Moral Bigamy act is passed. And then I guess 20 something days later, on July 24th of 1862, the books are returned. And except for one of the books, I'm not sure why that one was held longer. But one of the books wasn't returned on the same day. And then you have September 22nd, the Preliminary Emancipation act was passed. And then January 1st of 1863.

John Dehlin [00:56:14] So two months after the books are returned, a preliminary Emancipation Proclamation was presented.

Julia Sanders [00:56:21] And then five months after the books are returned, the Emancipation Proclamation is issued. So. Yeah. So I think it's very, very clear that the books were checked out for the purpose of the Anti Moral Bigamy act and not for the Emancipation Proclamation.

John Dehlin [00:56:35] Yeah. Yeah. And even. Even if we don't know for sure, just the. The evidence is overwhelming that. That your story, Julia, is much more likely than Tim Ballard's. And I'm sure Tim Ballard made hundreds of thousands of dollars off that book. Right. And as our book. I mean, those books sold well, as I understand it. So.

Julia Sanders [00:56:56] Yeah, I had. I had family reading those books too. Like, and. And I don't know, it's just.

John Dehlin [00:57:01] Yeah. Okay. Wow. Well, Julia, this is amazing, amazing, groundbreaking research. And you're just getting started, because you just started this semester, your master's degree in history.

Julia Sanders [00:57:12] I did, yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:14] So this is just a sneak peek of what Julia is going to be doing for us in the future.

Julia Sanders [00:57:20] I guess I'm just still impressed that nobody helps. Or I. Maybe they have and they just aren't on social media, but that no one's checked his facts.

John Dehlin [00:57:26] You should publish this in the journal Mormon History, by the way.

Julia Sanders [00:57:29] Oh, that'd be cool.

John Dehlin [00:57:31] Yeah. This could be your first publication. Seriously? I'm not kidding.

Julia Sanders [00:57:35] I don't know. I don't even know how to do that.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] That's how you get jobs in tenure as you. As you publish.

Julia Sanders [00:57:40] Well, that. Well, you should hook me up with whoever and. Because that'd be really cool to publish this.

John Dehlin [00:57:45] All right, well, that's amazing research. And then, Julia, let's go ahead and just read the key takeaways.

Key Takeaways and Closing Reflections

Julia Sanders [00:57:50] Yeah. So the key takeaways. So Lincoln did not like the Mormons, and the Mormons did not like Lincoln. The. Lincoln was very much against slavery and polygamy. And the Mormons were for those things. Oh, yeah, I said so the Mormons believed in slavery and polygamy. Again, they also believed in the Book of Mormon. And just this idea that Abraham Lincoln had it for eight months and was so inspired to end slavery. It just doesn't make any sense to me. So another key takeaway is we have no idea if it was Lincoln who checked out the Book of Mormon. Just to be clear. We just don't know. It could be, but we don't know. The Book of Mormon was most likely checked out as a research for the 1862 moral anti. Bigamy act and not for Abraham Lincoln's spiritual explorations, which is what Tim Ballard was. Was getting at. The best evidence for these facts is that the. That four anti Mormon books were checked out alongside the book Mormon, which I think is a huge thing that. That Tim Ballard just leaves off completely. Tim Ballard's book is at best super poor. Super poor scholarship or at worst and, and at worst extremely disingenuous. For Tim Ballard to suggest that Lincoln read the Book of Mor Mormon as part of a spiritual quest. That the Book of Mormon likely inspired his positions on slavery and the Civil War. This book should be edited or possibly removed from publication.

John Dehlin [00:58:58] And those again, those last two bullets are mine.

Julia Sanders [00:59:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:02] So Julie's like, yeah, John, are you sure you want to be recommending that a book be taken off the shelves? And I'm like, I don't know, man. If it's like spreading misinformation, maybe. I don't know.

Julia Sanders [00:59:13] Yeah, I don't like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] Well, this is super. This is super fascinating, Julia. And hey, if we hurry and end now, we'll be done in less than six years.

Julia Sanders [00:59:24] Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] Well, Julia, really quickly, how do people follow your good work? Because I think you do Great work. Your TikTok channel is amazing and I want to make people.

Julia Sanders [00:59:34] Yeah, I'm on TikTok. I post everything on YouTube and Patreon and Instagram. Instagram only allows for shorter videos, so some of mine don't make it on there. But I try to post everywhere else and I have a website that I try to keep updated with this type of information. So it's just the same thing analyzing Mormonism.com.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] and so, yeah, you're one of the few people to do a Mormon Stories episode in under an hour. That's a real accomplishment.

Julia Sanders [00:59:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:01] Also, I want to just remind people Julia is sort of picking up the baton that Mike left us with the LDS Discussion Series. The LDS Discussion Series is a much loved series of over 50 episodes. Digging into the Mormon Church's truth claims, trying to analyze them as objectively and as evidence based as possible. And Julia, we're really excited that you've been picking up the mantle. You did three episodes on John C. Bennett that have been released now and you've got one coming up. Should we announce that?

Julia Sanders [01:00:31] Yeah. So I want to talk about the problems of the witnesses. So the witnesses later, the three witnesses

John Dehlin [01:00:37] to the Book of Mormon and the eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon.

Julia Sanders [01:00:39] The book.

Tim Ballard [01:00:39] Yes.

Julia Sanders [01:00:40] Yeah. Yeah. So that's what that's about is the why there's problems there.

John Dehlin [01:00:43] And so we're going to be scheduling that soon. And for those who those can check out the LDS discussion series on wherever you get your podcast on Apple or on Spotify. And then We've got a YouTube playlist of all those because visuals help. It also helps to watch those in order. But if you want a really, really phenomenal series on Mormon Church's truth claims, please check out LDS discussions. And Julia, we're excited that you're taking that up.

Julia Sanders [01:01:10] Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:01:11] Also, I'm going to note, just because people are mentioning it, yes, I did shave my mustache and beard and no, I've never colored my freaking hair. So for those of you who want to, who accuse me of not that there's anything wrong with coloring your hair, but for some reason my beard is more gray but my hair stays brown. So that's maybe that's the most important thing we've talked about today. I don't know.

Julia Sanders [01:01:33] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:34] Also, Julia, your. Your camera is used up a little bit. My camera's what your camera and microphone is. Quality has been improved.

Julia Sanders [01:01:42] Oh yeah, yeah. One of the listeners came and sent me all this equipment. So super nice camera, super nice lighting.

John Dehlin [01:01:49] Yeah.

Julia Sanders [01:01:49] Still trying to figure out the background. Like, I have swords and they kind of look like they're jabbing into my head, so.

John Dehlin [01:01:57] All right, well, Julia, you're the best. We can't wait for your next stuff. I'll just thank we got a super chat. Judd Westgates writes. Please consider having Mersa Bharataran on the show. She's the Mormon author of the Color of Money, Black Banks and the Racial Wealth Gap. Love the podcast. Judd Westgate, I have news for you. We've had Mrsa Barateran on Mormon Stories podcast twice. So go back and Google Mormon Stories. And Mersa, she's phenomenal. I agree with that. But she's been on Mormon Stories podcast two times. I also want to just thank everyone for joining us today. We really do rely on your donations for support. So thanks to everyone who is a monthly donor to Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. Please become a monthly donor@mormonstories.org if you love this content and want to see it continue. We pay Julia for her scholarship, we pay our staff and I'm paid. So please, please become supporters. We're also very grateful for everyone who who donates through super chats. Please also like this episode. Please also subscribe to our YouTube channel whether you're watching live or not, and please share it with everyone. Julia, all the feedback's coming in. Everyone loves your work and is super grateful for it, so thank you.

Julia Sanders [01:03:10] You guys are so sweet.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] Yeah. And also thanks to Maven. Maven always does a great job moderating the comments, and she's posting links as we speak to the Mersa Barateran episode. All right. All right, Julia. Well, we look forward to more. Will you come back? Will you please keep doing cool research and we can come back on Mormon Stories and share it with us?

Julia Sanders [01:03:30] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [01:03:31] All right, thanks, Julia.

Julia Sanders [01:03:33] Okay, bye.

John Dehlin [01:03:34] And thanks to everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast. Please reach out to Tim Ballard and let him know his book needs to be taken off the shelves, that it grossly misrepresents history. And please tell all your family and friends that read Tim Ballard's books to read this book. Sorry to watch this episode so that they can get a sense for the poor scholarship that goes into Tim Ballard's books or at least one of his books. You guys can decide whether that applies to the other ones as well. Anyway, please give us your feedback mormonstoriesmail.com we also read all the comments on these episodes. We love your feedback and suggestions. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody.

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