Introduction and Breaking News Announcement

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June, Sunday morning, June 2, 2024, and there's only one person in the world who could get me out of bed into the studio at 8am to do an episode, and that's Heather Gay. How's it going, Heather? Welcome back.

Heather Gay [00:00:21] Great, thank you. Welcome, welcome. Sabbath morning, we are here. I mean, I really did think there is something poignant about me waking up on Sunday morning to be here and I saw everybo going to church. Everybody, you know, the car's driving by.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] Was that healing or triggering or both?

Heather Gay [00:00:38] It is. I think it's triggering and then. But because I'm in a different place now, it's healing because I don't want to be there. I don't feel. I used. Like for a long time I would feel angst like, oh, I'm supposed to be there. Or they're there on time or, you know what I mean? Or they're there at 8am because it's early. Right. So it's the early people walking in to start the early meetings. But now it's just like, I don't wanna say those fools, but yeah, I feel like I don't have to go, but I'm going to commune and talk and do all the things that I would hope to get at church.

John Dehlin [00:01:12] Yeah. Yep. I really.

Heather Gay [00:01:13] No pressure.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] None. So y' all will recognize. Obviously y' all will recognize Heather from the Real Housewives of Salt Lake City. We had her on several years ago right after. During the first season, right?

Heather Gay [00:01:27] Yeah, right after the first season. We hadn't had. Had it even aired yet?

John Dehlin [00:01:32] Maybe, maybe not. Or maybe it was right around.

Heather Gay [00:01:36] I think it was starting to air.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] I think I'd watched a couple episodes.

Heather Gay [00:01:39] Yeah. Because the episodes were happy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was airing when I came on. Wow. That seems. That was season one.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Yeah. What year?

Heather Gay [00:01:46] And now we finished season five.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] What year was season one?

Heather Gay [00:01:49] Season one was. We filmed it in November of. No, it aired in November of 2019.

John Dehlin [00:01:56] Okay, so that's five years ago. Yeah. And then y' all will know that we had Heather back a couple years ago now for her best selling New York Times amazing bad Mormon book that I loved. Thank you. And that's gone well, right?

Heather Gay [00:02:11] Yeah, it's been great. Sales have been wonderful. It's like now we're past like the housewife tokenism and it's people that are reading it and like handing it to their friends and sharing it and it's Been. The book has been, you know, everything for me.

John Dehlin [00:02:27] Yeah, yeah, so. And I love the book, so please buy it and read it if you haven't yet. But if that weren't enough, we are here to, number one, catch up with Heather, but two, to make what I think is one of the most exciting announcements in my time as Mormon Stories podcast host in terms of one of the main goals I have on Mormon Stories, which is informed consent and supporting Mormons and others, you know, in their religious transitions. And the announcement is. Drum roll, please. Do you want to make it?

Heather Gay [00:03:06] Well, you make it.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] Okay. All right, so I'll use my words.

Heather Gay [00:03:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] And then you correct me because I may get.

Heather Gay [00:03:13] Your words will be better than mine.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] Okay.

Heather Gay [00:03:15] Yes, go.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] So I'll say, years ago, when I was trying to make sense of Mormonism, I saw the Going Clear documentary, which was about Scientology. And then it was followed up an amazing series called something like Leah Remini, Scientology in the Aftermath. I don't know if I got that exactly right.

Heather Gay [00:03:34] I think that's exactly right.

John Dehlin [00:03:35] It was like an 8 or 10 part series where Leah would kind of go around and they would just cover different aspects of Scientology with Leah kind of as a main figure to. To be the lens through which to see the Scientology experience. And then of course, there was, you know, Mike Rinder and others who helped out, and that was a really important show. It was successful show and it was formative for me, and I know it was formative for a lot of people. So about the possibility of doing something similar, but looking at Mormonism with you as the centerpiece instead of, you know, obviously Leah Remini, is that kind of right?

Heather Gay [00:04:18] Yeah, I mean, I don't think we know exactly what it's going to be, but it's an opportunity to expand the format to Mormonism, you know, to talk about Mormonism and the stories that are out there and to just kind of continue unraveling the world we live in as Mormons, post Mormons, ex Mormons, and other people that are like, processing realizations later in life about the way they've lived their life, the things they've been taught and the ways it's affected them. And I think that it's timely because. Well, I mean, you could tell me more why it's timely. But doesn't it feel like, was there a great purge in Mormonism in 2020? Does it feel like 2019 and 2020 there started to be like, people leaving in droves, or is that just an urban legend?

The Wave of People Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:05:20] No, I think with the rise of The Internet, there's definitely been this acceleration of people leaving the church, both leaving in terms of just dropping off, the, you know, going inactive and. And, you know, not resigning, but also a bunch resigning, but also a bunch who became pimos, where they just lost. Left in their mind, but they had to stay in.

Heather Gay [00:05:41] Okay, Pimos is physically in, mentally out.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] Exactly. Yeah. So. But. But yes, there's certainly been. And that's not just. This is important. That's not just a Mormon phenomenon. There's this nationwide or even global phenomenon called the rise of the nuns. N O N E S that the Pew foundation has told us about, which is that most Christian churches in the developed world are in serious decline. So it's not just Mormons, it's Episcopalians, it's Lutherans, it's Methodists, it's evangelical Christians, Catholics, Southern Baptists. And there are a lot of reasons for that. The Internet, younger generations, LGBT issues, political polarization. And, you know, there are lots of reasons, but in the end of the day, yes, Mormonism is hemorrhaging, for sure. And I would say Covid, you know, the. The 2015 stuff, the LGBT stuff, the November 2015 policy kicked a ton of people out, and then I think Covid just knocked a ton of people out in addition to the broader movements.

Heather Gay [00:06:48] So, anyway, yeah, and I'm. I mean, I'm fast and I guess, like, I'm really. So essentially, like, we're looking at doing a TV project where people will share their stories in a format that they haven't before, you know, or that they. Or that they're interested in. And so we're this. I really want to talk about, like, soliciting stories of people like, that maybe were totally believing up until Covid and then. Covid. What was it at Covid that made you stop going, you know, or like, what. Where. Why are you at where you're at now? And do you have a story that's compelling that you want to share?

John Dehlin [00:07:27] Yeah. So this is a call. Like, at the beginning of this episode, we're making a call. We're announcing.

Heather Gay [00:07:33] We're just calling out to the world. We're issuing out around the world, and

John Dehlin [00:07:40] we're issuing a calling. A calling. If you feel so called, we would like to extend to you a calling. No, if people are struggling in Mormonism and they would want to tell their story.

Heather Gay [00:07:51] I mean, I think it's going to be. Be formatted based on the stories people wanna share.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] Yeah, yeah.

Heather Gay [00:07:59] You know, and that's like. I just think there's something I Mean, let's talk a little bit about my journey.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:08:06] Because I was a pimo, I guess,

John Dehlin [00:08:12] physically and mentally out.

Heather Gay [00:08:13] I was physically in. No, I mean I'm still mentally in, in so many ways. So I'm not a pimo. What am I besides just messed up?

John Dehlin [00:08:22] You're a bad Mormon.

Heather Gay [00:08:23] I'm a bad Mormon. But like, I mean, but we're all bad Mormons. We're all bad. I mean, it's hard to be a good Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] It's impossible to be a good Mormon.

Heather Gay [00:08:34] It's very, very hard. But I think back to my. Sorry. I think back to my journey and I hate using the word journey, but it is such a. It's the only word that works. Because I was willing to go on Housewives, I was willing to, you know, I mean, that kind of sums it up. Like if you're willing to. If you're a Mormon woman willing to go on Real Housewives of any city, let alone Salt Lake City, then you are physically and mentally out on some level.

Heather Gay [00:09:12] Because the show and what the show is, does, is just. It's very hard to be a active, law abiding Mormon. We've seen a lot of people on the show that identify as Mormon, but the way they live their life is not exactly the Mormon way. Right, right. I mean, I don't wanna get into too many specifics, but like, it would be difficult. And I was willing to go on the show and reveal a lot of my life, which included drinking and dating and things that I would never wanna admit children or to my Mormon friends or to anyone. But I was willing to do that on tv.

Heather Gay [00:09:51] Yet I still was scared to come on Mormon Stories, was scared to write a book that would, you know, called Bad Mormon, and definitely scared to put my picture on the COVID of that book. And that, to me is still so fascinating that like, I was thinking that I could keep up the facade or still be accepted and embraced because I hadn't publicly or declaratively put myself in a position that was anti.

Heather Gay [00:10:23] And like, I've joked with you a lot about using the word anti. I'm very, very uncomfortable with it, mostly because of the anti Phi Lehighs. But it's. The more that I've, the more that I've transitioned out or the more distance I've put between that community and that way of thinking and those type of reinforcements has enabled me to recognize like, that I've only been able to heal by sharing my story publicly, by ripping that band aid off, by like being open to joining the ranks of the community of others, you know, the community of people who have been out there saying, this has hurt me, this is wrong, this can't be true.

Heather Gay [00:11:10] And I feel like I owe it to this community to like apologize for not being out there sooner and for, you know, being an apologist for so long. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:11:28] Yeah. Well, the only part that doesn't make sense is you apologizing.

Heather Gay [00:11:34] That's ingrained deeply in me.

John Dehlin [00:11:36] Yeah. No, just cause, you know, we all were where we were until we weren't. And I think everybody is just trying to figure out how to manage risk in, you know, whatever they're experiencing. Because there's. There wouldn't be a need for a show, for a TV show if it weren't super complicated, potentially life threatening sort of risk that anyone has to consider when they consider stepping off the orthodox Mormon path. It could be divorce, it could be losing your kids, it could be estrangement, losing friends, community, job, employment, employment, income, all that's on the table and for some losing their lives is. It's not an exaggeration.

Heather Gay [00:12:21] It's not an exaggeration because even insulated with financial independence and housewives, a hit TV show, a best selling book, you know, things that you would think would give you these buffers, it's still. You still lose your community, you still lose your currency with friends, you still lose your friends, your children lose their insulated environment, your friend, you know, their friendships change. Like, I felt the sting of it even with all of the other buffers to kind of buoy me up.

John Dehlin [00:12:56] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:12:57] And that is devastating.

John Dehlin [00:12:59] Yeah. Yeah. And that's why it needs more coverage. And that's why I'm so excited for the possibility of a TV series and with you in it. Because you're. Anyone who reads your book knows you're wicked smart. Even though you might want to deflect that compliment or maybe you embrace it. I don't know.

Heather Gay [00:13:19] I've embraced wicked smart.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] All right, so you're wicked smart and you're, you're funny and have a great sense of humor and fun. I mean, that's obviously a core part of your testimony, your, your, you know, your Persona. And that is the spoonful of sugar that helps the medicine go down. Which is why I'm so excited for the possibility of this project.

Heather Gay [00:13:43] I mean, you have to understand that that's so surreal for me to sit across from you and have you say to me that you're excited about anything I'm doing, because I just feel like my life out of Mormonism began when I came on this show. And I kind of want to talk to you about, like, why that was such a formative experience for me and why that's really the catalyst for me being wanting to put myself in a position to solicit stories from other people. And what is the psychology behind sharing your story that is so powerful both personally and in your ability to connect with others? Yeah, tell me a little bit about that. Because that's why you formed Mormon stories. I'm assuming there's something about the telling of the story.

The Power of Storytelling and Why It Matters

John Dehlin [00:14:28] I think literally before there was even writing, as soon as there was language, there was storytelling. And I think for tens of thousands of years, if you're okay with evolution or hundreds, we sat around campfires. And the way that we had a memory, the way that we shared, the way that we communicated, the way that we taught each other is by storytelling. So I literally think evolutionarily, we are at our core storytelling people. That's how we make sense of the world, is through stories. Stories are engaging, they're interesting, they are important for teaching. And so stories are where it's at.

Heather Gay [00:15:09] So when you're telling your story, someone else hears parts of your story that resonates with them and then it motivates them to tell their own story. Because I never really even thought I had a story.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] Yeah, yeah.

Heather Gay [00:15:21] You know, so many of your guests are so incredibly. Their stories are so incredibly moving and powerful and just heart wrenching and painful and like, you know, I felt like my story didn't have any of the merits, you know, that would make it worthwhile or listening to and then. But coming on Mormon stories, and it wasn't even about what I shared. It was just that whatever I did share resonated with certain people. Not everybody, obviously, but in a way that made me feel less alone and made me feel like I did have a story to share, which compelled me to do the book.

John Dehlin [00:16:07] Yeah, it's ultimately empowering, psychologically healing and liberating to tell your story. And then when you tell your story, it makes other people feel like they're not crazy and they're not alone. So it's a. It's an act of charity for oneself and for other people.

Heather Gay [00:16:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] You know, and healing. It's healing. Stories are healing, full stop.

Heather Gay [00:16:28] Totally healing. Yeah, totally healing. I mean, I think I. The first time I came on Mormon stories, I spent like nine hours. Right? Like, well, became. I came in three sessions of like three hours each. But I could have, like, sitting in this chair, like, it's still. It just. I remember thinking, like, that feeling you get when you lock into a roller coaster and it goes up and you're like, well, I'm in. You know, like, I'm here. I'm on Mormon stories. Like, I have ripped the band aid off, like. But I mean, now I. Now I'm so much more aware of the audience of Mormon stories and your guests that are from all different points of their faith.

Heather Gay [00:17:03] But at the time, I had been taught, schooled, that anything that talked about anything other than absolute praise for the church and didn't come out of the handbook was therefore. What's the word? Like, bad. Beyond bad.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] Forbidden. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:17:24] Forbidden. Dangerous. Fraught with deceit.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] Apostate.

Heather Gay [00:17:30] Apostate. Evil.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Heather Gay [00:17:36] And so for me to, like, step across that threshold and then have the place that I feared the most be the nexus of healing, of community, of outreach, and of safety for the first time, like, I thought I would come on Mormon stories and. And be obliterated, and instead, I came on Mormon stories and was embraced and realized. Like in wizard of Oz, when all the munchkins are like, you think they're flowers, but they all lift their heads up and they're all munchkins and they're all people and they're here to help. That's how I felt. Like I was looking at the world, and all of a sudden, people just started to sprout up everywhere. And it, you know, it was incredible. And I thank you for that. I thank you for that. I'm so glad Mormon stories exist because. And I'm so. I feel so lucky that I got to benefit from it.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:18:35] And be back here today saying, listen, this is. This changed my life so much that I want to make sure as many people know about it as possible, you know?

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Yeah. And also your. This TV show has the potential of giving other people the same chance to both heal themselves by telling their story. Because, let's face it, being told you can't tell your story in an authentic way is like a psychological prison that makes you ill because you're just internalizing all these feelings of being silenced, of being not known, of conforming and not being authentic, Whereas the opposite is telling your story is healing for most people because you're not only expressing candidly, authentically, vulnerably, who you are, but you're also serving others. It's. Would you say you're healthier now than you were two or five years ago? Just in terms of the benefits to being authentic?

Heather Gay [00:19:37] I think I'm So much healthier now. I mean, I think I'm healed. No, I mean, I'm still in. I still am in therapy, but I

John Dehlin [00:19:45] do, which is healthy. A sign of health.

Heather Gay [00:19:47] Good, good, good. No, I was always taught therapy was a sign of weakness, but now I realize that it is a sign of health. Thank you for that. Yeah. I feel like it really is. Okay, well, this is. You're gonna laugh at me, but me saying, like, the healing comes in, the sharing of the story is like a testimony is created in the bearing of it. What is that phrase that we say?

Heather Gay [00:20:17] A testimony is born in the bearing of it. That's the truth about the telling of your story. You know, And I think that for people that think they don't have a story to tell is the first sign that you probably do, you know, because if you grew up with a narrative that proved to be false or that ultimately damaged or hurt or changed who you were and how you lived, and now you're picking up the pieces of that, like that in and of itself is a fascinating story.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:20:52] I believe.

John Dehlin [00:20:53] Yeah. Yeah. So. So how do we. If people are saying, I wonder what types of stories. I know. We don't want to cap it. We don't want to limit it. Right. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:21:05] Because.

John Dehlin [00:21:05] But if somebody's listening right now thinking, wow, I would be on national tv, that's terrifying or exciting. But then what types of stories are they even looking for? I think the answer is, we don't even want to limit. If they're struggling, then we want them to consider what. Is there an email address we'll be given?

Heather Gay [00:21:25] Yeah, we'll have an email address. It's new project. Let me pull it up. New project at all. Right. Here's the formal request. We are exploring a television project that I hope will extend the opportunity to share your story with more people who might be struggling with similar issues. If you think you might be interested, please reach out@new projectlossenproductions.com and tell me a little bit about your story and why you think it could be valuable to share. And Slauson is S L A U s o n productions.com and I'm going to post this on my Instagram and

John Dehlin [00:22:01] we'll post it in the description wherever you're listening to or viewing this episode.

Heather Gay [00:22:07] That would be great.

John Dehlin [00:22:09] And so they're going to email and just kind of tell us.

Heather Gay [00:22:11] Yeah, and email a blurb about you and your story and why you think. Why you're willing to share. And I think we're just casting the net as wide as possible, because we don't know what people haven't shared yet, you know, and what they might want to share and what's out there, you know, you don't know what you don't know. And this is the first time that I've really stepped into this arena. And all I know is that when I wrote the book and came on Mormon stories, my DMs and inbox was full of people sharing their own story.

Heather Gay [00:22:51] And that, to me, felt healing and powerful and connecting. And it is what I wanna talk about, you know, it's all I wanna talk about, and I wanna explore it more because I'm still in the process of it. Like, I am still deprogramming every day.

Heather Gay [00:23:13] And that's, like, why I get so excited when you allow me to come on your podcast, because I'm like, oh, great. Free therapy. Just what I've been needing. But it's. I just kind of feel like so much of my life the last few years has been a whirlwind, and it's. There's been a lot of things that have been able to buffer, you know, the sting of leaving the faith I've always known.

Heather Gay [00:23:39] And even with all of those buffers, there's still questions that arise every day. There's still slights and microaggressions and hurts and shunnings and just kind of finding new footing in a new reality. And it's just ironic to me that I went on reality television only to realize that the reality I'd been living was just a complete facade.

John Dehlin [00:24:06] Mm.

Heather Gay [00:24:07] And there's something poignant and ironic about that, and I certainly am not losing the tongue in cheek, you know, factor of all of it, you know.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. Well, as I. As I think about the possibilities, and this is just as all the opportunities that come up in my mind, I just think about all the stories that people experience or the types of situations people experience when they're navigating their faith, Whether it's learning things about the church that they didn't ever know before, whether it's being afraid to come out, to believing family and friends, whether it's living in a mixed faith marriage or hiding from your spouse what you really believe, or your kids or whatever the LGBT Mormon experience, women in the church, people of color in the church, people who have been victims of abuse or other types of things.

Types of Mormon Stories Being Sought

John Dehlin [00:25:01] There's just so many people and. And categories of stories that are way too common that if the. Any. Any of those or other Types of stories can get any type of spotlight. It will it for sure save thousands of lives at a. Just as a starting point. And then there's just all the other people who are just going to benefit from feeling validated and from learning about what, what's involved in being in a high demand religion like Mormonism, you know, and I think this has very. A significantly broader applicability than just Mormonism, as you know, I think I told you like over 60 of my YouTube audience has never been Mormon, which some of that's just a fascination of Mormonism, but some of it is just that Catholics and evangelicals and orthodox Jews and they don't have a Mormon stories equivalent.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] So they watch Mormon stories because they don't have the equivalent in their tradition. And they find like I've found value learning for Leah Remini and Mike Rinder about my Mormonism, learning from Scientologists. So many other traditions are gonna come to understand their experience better by, by looking through the Mormon lens. So that's the beauty of what you guys are hoping to do, I think.

Heather Gay [00:26:24] I think so. When you stick to a niche or a niche topic that seems to only apply to a specific number of people, but you realize that these are universal narratives that make for compelling stories and compelling experiences that are moving and fascinating and traumatizing and healing. And it's just all of it is. Feels like I will be able. The more I learn, the more I realize I didn't know, you know, And I felt like I was lived in a bubble for so long where I was not interested.

Heather Gay [00:27:08] That's the wrong way to say it. I felt like I was in a bubble for so long where I was not open to hearing people's experiences because I was scared that it would affect my own footing and my own, you know, precarious position in holding it all together, you know. And I don't want to discount anyone's experiences, discount anyone's, anyone's own story, because now I'm like open to receive it, but that's taken time. Yeah, Yeah, I really had my eyes half closed because I didn't want to negate all the good I felt about myself and my life. And like, the truth is, you know, like, I'm 90% Mormon.

Heather Gay [00:28:01] So if I hate this faith, if I hate this community that hates me now, if I hate, you know, of all these things, then there's a part that feels like there's some self loathing because I wasted so much of my life living it and I taught it to my children and I Got married based on it. And I chose my school based on it, and I chose my, you know, the clothes I dressed and the foods I ate, where I lived, how I spoke, who I considered myself to be. My major in college, like, all of this was not based on my own knowing, but based on, you know, a prescription that was handed down to me and that was, you know, identified in a handbook.

Heather Gay [00:28:44] Like, and I'm into rules and regulations. I like to read the terms and conditions, you know, and I. Once they put me in leadership in the church and I got to read the handbook, and I could go to, like, section 4.3.2. Like, what do I do if someone wants to throw a baby shower for an unwed mother? Like, I like that level of granularity. Protocols save lives. And so there was something about the structure of Mormonism that spoke to me as a young girl, even though so much of me wanted to rebel against was like that perfect storm of I was willing to, you know, suppress any natural instinct I had of my own authentic self if Rule 4.7.2 said that I couldn't do it.

Heather Gay [00:29:31] You knew you wanted to test the limits, but you also wanted to be the best Mormon you could be. And I think that's, like, this unique combination of competitive ambition and love for your family and community. You know, that deep desire to belong, even if you feel like you want to swim upstream.

Heather Gay [00:29:50] You know, it's just so much more comforting and embracing to hide in the fold. And I, you know, I now want to hide within the fold of the ex Mormon community. They're much more embracing, and they're also more authentic to who I am.

Heather Gay [00:30:11] And it's just. I was thinking about this when I was thinking about coming on the podcast, like, what I wanted to talk to you about. And I thought about our relationship and our friendship and how it was just so immediate because just like, when you go to girls camp and you can immediately be friends with another member of the church, like, if you go to Vermont and you see someone in a BYU sweatshirt, you can immediately be friends with that person.

John Dehlin [00:30:36] Yep.

Heather Gay [00:30:37] You know, songs they sang, foods they ate, things they value. It's an immediate friendship.

John Dehlin [00:30:42] Heroes, they worship.

Heather Gay [00:30:43] You know, heroes, they worship all of it. This is an immediate friend, an immediate identifier. Now, I. That immediate identification, it's like that relationship is so surface compared to if I meet someone that was byu, went to byu and has now left the church. Now it's like, now the trove is open, and the relationship is just so much more intimate and authentic because we can explore every aspect of our life. The good, the bad, the ugly, you know, the absolutely enriching good things and the horribly traumatizing, you know, debilitating things.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] Yeah, yeah. People like you and me, once we know we're both kind of Mormonism didn't work for us, but we shared such a great experience. We'll be able to. We can. We were able to and could immediately share things with each other that we've never told our own siblings or parents. Right.

Heather Gay [00:31:44] 100%. Like, like I almost said, it's like sitting with my bishop, but it's a billion times better. It's like sitting with your most trusted youth leader that caught you with cigarettes and is never going to tell your parents.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] Yeah, yeah.

Heather Gay [00:31:57] Like, when you texted me this morning, like, do you want a coffee? Like, I jump scared and laughed. And I realized it's because I don't have to code switch with you. I can talk about Mormonism in both positive or negative ways, and you can be drinking a coffee, and that is just this unique space that I'm finding myself in. But I didn't have this community before, you know, and, like, I'm getting more and more comfortable with it. I was at Disneyland yesterday, and my best friend from high school, which I don't think I know, she doesn't listen to Mormon stories, so I can out her. I'm not going to fully out her because she might kill me, but her last name is the last. She's a devout Mormon, will never leave, and is also one of my best friends. You know, of course, it's affected our friendship the last five, six years, as it does.

John Dehlin [00:32:54] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:32:55] You know, and I challenge anyone who thinks it doesn't to prove it. But I saw this wine that they were serving that was based on her last name, so I took a picture of it at Disneyland, and I felt brazen doing this. You know, I am an old woman. I have raised children. I have written a book called Bad Mormon with my picture on it. I've been drunk on housewives, you know, and I'm still scared to send a picture to my best friend that's known me since I was 15 of me drinking a glass of wine that's named after her.

Heather Gay [00:33:27] But she was funny and great about it, and we had, like, a little joke, and that felt, like this huge victory for me in living authentically. And it makes me want to cry because that's so dumb, you know? Like, I'm still scared to, like, live authentically.

Heather Gay [00:33:43] And I'm rich and famous, you know, and that doesn't change it. And so knowing that about my own experience makes me want other people to feel that freedom as well.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] Yeah. I'll just tell you now, it is such a. I mean, Mormon stories backbone is providing a platform to help others tell their stories. And that's what you are potentially about to do. And it's a huge gift to use your platform to enable other people to tell their stories. So if this works out, and I have every reason to believe it will, get ready for feeling a huge sense of gratification for. For helping others have the gift of telling their story.

Heather Gay [00:34:23] I mean, all I can base it on is how formative it's been for me. Where's my Kleenex?

John Dehlin [00:34:27] I lost it.

Heather Gay [00:34:28] And that is what motivates me to put myself out there more. Because it works, this format works. And there's something really special about the more people that throw their kindling on the fire. Everything that I believed about as Mormonism, you know, you get up and you bear your testimony of the truthfulness, even if you don't believe it because someone might need to hear you testifying to it. Like, guess what? Someone might need to see you being brave. Proving to your best friend that you drink wine, you know, or owning it, because that paves the way for someone else to find their footing.

John Dehlin [00:35:08] Absolutely.

Heather Gay [00:35:09] In a world that is fraught with rejection and microaggressions and shunning of it is real. The shunning and hurt and pain and loss of community is real. And I felt it even as I was being insulated with a trove of riches, an embarrassment of riches in terms of people recognizing you, people knowing your story, people reading your book. There's still loss associated with moving forward. And there's something that I really wanna honor about that. Like, I would never think telling your story is easy. As healing as it is, as beneficial as it has been for me and as beneficial as it is for every time I listen to a Mormon story, I feel better, healed, moved, inspired, grateful. Even with that, it's, you know, there's loss and there should it. People should be commended for sharing their story and paying it forward.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:36:12] You know, they're heroes.

John Dehlin [00:36:13] Yeah. Yep.

Heather Gay [00:36:14] And it's an honor just to hear, to receive it, you know?

John Dehlin [00:36:19] Yeah. And I look at you and everyone who's ever come on Mormon stories is a hero. Every single one. And you don't get it until you do it.

Heather Gay [00:36:28] You know, a testimony is gained in the bearing of it barrier ex Mormon story. And like find out what you didn't know. You know, you didn't know. You know, to speak it into existence as a man thinketh and as a man saith and speaketh it like it just. It changes you. And this is coming from a skeptic. I just. I guess I'm just jonesing on it because I was a skeptic. I came on Mormon stories terrified and doing it as an act of love and service. And I made my cool best friend John like, when I saw you get out of the car today, too, I was just like, you're so much cooler than I remember. Why is that? Is that me that's changed or you that's changed?

John Dehlin [00:37:18] I'm boring. I'm so Mormon. I'm sorry. I know.

Heather Gay [00:37:22] That's what I feel like.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] You say 90% Mormon. I feel 98% Mormon. I know.

Heather Gay [00:37:26] And yet you are the Pied Piper. You're the prophet of anti morms and I'm the Pied Piper.

John Dehlin [00:37:32] Right now, profits, that's. I think that's. We're moving away from that model.

Heather Gay [00:37:35] Move away from the profits from the gurus. There is. We are our own gurus.

John Dehlin [00:37:40] Yeah. Okay, so before we do the final formal call and tell people again exactly how to reach out to a potential producer, what do we want to call the person they're emailing?

Heather Gay [00:37:53] Like a production team.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] Okay. Yeah. So before you email the production team about your story, let's end with, well, we can end however you want. But one thing I don't want to end without having you say very explicitly, and we've talked about it in different ways, but there's going to be sort of this question of, is this going to be anti Mormon? Is this going to. Is the intention of this to destroy the church? To take the church down, to embarrass the church, to shame the church?

Heather Gay's Upcoming TV Project

John Dehlin [00:38:24] Sort of like expose vibes. Right, Right. We don't know how it'll be edited or cut or what the final product would ever be, but we. We do know maybe what our intent is. And I know that with Mormon stories, it's never been that, because I think you and I still have love for the Mormon Church and the Mormon people, even if we also hate the harm that is caused to many. So if someone were to say, oh, you just want to create an anti Mormon TV series to take the church down, how would you frame the spirit or the heart of what? You know what I mean?

Heather Gay [00:39:01] Well, I would definitely not frame it as such. I would say that where's your heart is what you say. My heart has been Is like, I didn't know that I had a story to tell. And lo and behold, my story has been told and sold over and over. Right. And it was in the telling of my story that I realized how powerful it was for me personally and could have the potential to be for other people. And I value people. Mormon, you know, or not Mormon or otherwise, but people that have compelling stories adjacent to experiences around the church, positive, negative, or not sure what it is, and they feel compelled to share it. I want to create a space and a format that's unique to me to do that.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:40:00] I feel like I'm not saying it right.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] No, that's great. But the spirit isn't to mock or even to hurt or destroy.

Heather Gay [00:40:07] It's to tell compelling stories. It's to tell compelling stories about people whose lives have been affected by the church.

John Dehlin [00:40:17] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:40:19] And I think, is it fair to say no one's going to take the church down?

John Dehlin [00:40:25] Yeah. Oh, it's basically a trillion dollar. If it's not a trillion dollar monolith now, it will be in 20 years. It's a quarter of a trillion dollar megalith.

Heather Gay [00:40:38] Yeah. Like I have. I would almost say, like I have. I. I don't have no beef with the church. I'm only fascinated in the people that have left it and that are leaving it or are considering leaving it. Because I want to know the who, why, where, why, how, and what of it all. Because it helps me heal.

John Dehlin [00:40:54] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:40:54] And it makes me feel less alone. And if it's just selfish reasons, it's gotta, you know, if it makes a difference to this one starfish to throw back in the ocean, you know, like, I'm that starfish. Cause I'm healing myself, you know, I

John Dehlin [00:41:08] think the Mormon Church at this point has enough money and power to take God down. What do you think?

Heather Gay [00:41:12] I mean, truthfully, like, if you.

John Dehlin [00:41:16] God should be scared.

Heather Gay [00:41:17] God should be scared. Watch out, Jesus.

John Dehlin [00:41:22] All right. Okay. Well, before we do a final call, any other. Any other things we should know about just your life or catching up?

Life After Mormonism and Personal Growth

Heather Gay [00:41:30] Life is good. We just finished season five. It was really. I had a lot of fun filming, and our relationships are deepening. And so as your relationships deepen, so do the topics you're willing to talk, you know, approach. And I just feel like I just finishing my second book, Good Time Girl, that's going to be available at the end of this year, early next year. Book number two.

John Dehlin [00:41:58] Another book.

Heather Gay [00:41:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] Yay.

Heather Gay [00:42:00] I'm really excited about that.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] Good time girl.

Heather Gay [00:42:02] Good time Girl. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] Okay.

Heather Gay [00:42:04] The Cover's gonna probably be a little bit inappropriate, but not, not inappropriate. And you know, I'm still 95.

John Dehlin [00:42:10] I feel like your shoulders will be.

Heather Gay [00:42:11] Well, I'm pretending to be a Girls Gone Wild.

John Dehlin [00:42:15] Okay, okay.

Heather Gay [00:42:15] But it's censored, obviously.

John Dehlin [00:42:16] Okay, okay. Wow.

Heather Gay [00:42:19] I know, I know. Burying my shoulders and my knees.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] You're deprogramming.

Heather Gay [00:42:24] It is an act of deprogramming for sure. I'm like slowly trying to do these things.

John Dehlin [00:42:29] What body empowerment?

Heather Gay [00:42:30] What body empowerment. And like I'm trying. My daughter posted her. She was wearing like this postage stamp size of a dress for her 21st birthday. And I had to just like, she's 21. And I still was like, cover your shoulders. You know, put on a coat. Like I just. It's deeply in me, you know, I see a crop top and I just cringe. Like I hope I don't see anyone I know. You know, like on my kids.

Heather Gay [00:42:56] And like I just, I still live under the auspice of, you know, covering up. Not covering up literally, but covering up literally and covering up anything that is aberrant to, you know, the status quo. Like I saw a guy riding his bike to church today and I thought, you know, you're not an individual just cause you ride your bike to church and everyone else drives. Like there's such a limited latitude in how you can individualize. There's individuation is so limited that like you are the one guy that rides his bike to church and that's what differentiates you. Does that make sense? It's just the masses of everyone being so the same and how little room there is to be unique.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] Yeah. And I was joking with you. I sometimes drop an F bomb.

Heather Gay [00:43:47] Oh my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] Because it helps. It helps. I mean, and a believer is going to look at that and say, oh well, the CX Mormons, blah blah, blah. Or you're just trying to be. And there's like a degree to which when you deviate or like talk about the temple or like you said, a woman shows her shoulders. No, no one can. Or like me. Like this episode was brought to you today by Bjorn's Brew. Like not really, but. But like things that to a Mormon seems radical and extreme and even anti Mormon for us can just be like liberation.

John Dehlin [00:44:27] It's just a way to reclaim your power. It's not done to stick a thumb in anyone's eye. It's not done to be shocking. It's literally done to say, I gotta break those chains. And sometimes the only way to do it is to do the thing you were always terrified to do. It's like exposure therapy for someone with ocd. In a weird way, it is exposure therapy.

Heather Gay [00:44:52] It's total exposure for therapy. You texting me, do I want a coffee? Was like, we're breaking generational chains. And like, you dropped the F bomb. I me having a reaction that, you know, like, is ridiculous.

John Dehlin [00:45:05] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:45:06] You know, like I drop the F bomb all the time, but I'm careful. I'm conscious of who's around and that. Just being able to just take off those shackles of conformity and fear.

John Dehlin [00:45:19] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:45:19] But I couldn't do that with other people.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] You know, that's fun. And the more we model it, the more other people are going to feel comfortable doing it. Breaking the chains.

Heather Gay [00:45:29] Do you feel pressure to be like the model of post Mormonism?

John Dehlin [00:45:35] What I feel, yes. Actually, I wanted to say some sort of lengthy. But the answer is yes, I do. Like if I mess, if I f up. I was going to say if I fuck up, if I mess up, then like everybody, I worry that. And I don't really think this, but my Mormon brain, my ex Mormon, Mormon brain says I'll be letting down everyone who's an ex Mormon. That then becomes the subject of. See that John de Lynn guy, he's bad. And you know, and I feel like I would be letting down my community if I up and I do mess up. So like it's, it's an unwinnable situation.

Heather Gay [00:46:20] Well, I. Because I feel like you have to prove that you can leave Mormonism, be excommunicated and still this like sober, responsible, intellectual, kind, great father. You have to hit every single mark. Yeah. Ethical and not swearing. I mean, that's why. Because I feel like you have to walk that line, you know, and how.

Heather Gay [00:46:49] But that's your Mormon brain, right? That's my Mormon brain too. Like you owe it to, you know, you may not believe, but your little sister still does. So you better toe the line, you know, like you have to prove that you don't fall off the wagon and that. I mean, that's how I feel like I have to prove that. Like, guess what? I'm successful and I drink, I'm successful and I swear I'm successful and I don't wear my garments, you know, Like I'm still able to thrive and I haven't fallen face down in the gutter. My kids didn't go to BYU and they are graduating with honors.

Heather Gay [00:47:21] You know, my kids are going to out of state colleges and are thriving all of these Things I believed would never happen. I believed that if, you know, they would end up miserable, addicted, pregnant, you know, apostate. I don't know, like words like that. I don't even know. But anything horrible would happen if we let go of that iron rod for, you know, an extended period of time. And we've let go of it. We've wandered off into the mists of darkness, the lone and dreary world, and have never been happier as a, as a family. And I'm just speaking for me and my three daughters, because that's my family.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] You know, talk about mists of darkness. We were in mists of darkness and we walked into the sun filled prairie of beauty. In my world, we joined the human race when we left the mists of darkness of orthodox Mormonism. And I know that sounds heretical, but I feel like my eyes were opened when I left.

Heather Gay [00:48:19] Now you can see.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Yeah. It's almost like the church was the garden of an artificial world, keeping us ignorant. And then we left the church. It is kind of the lone and jury world, but it's also the big, bright, beautiful world. But our eyes were opened, you know,

Heather Gay [00:48:37] and we only were able to see beauty before if it was in like that Truman show facade.

John Dehlin [00:48:41] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:48:42] And then we broke through the like blue clouds, the weather, controlled environment, the attention and, you know, and felt the rain and felt the rage and felt the tears and felt it all. But it was such a richer experience.

John Dehlin [00:48:55] Yeah. Because it was real.

Heather Gay [00:48:56] Because it was real.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] And reality is beautiful and terrible, but I'd rather live in the terror and the beauty of reality than in a air conditioned, you know, emotion controlled environment. Yeah. Absolutely beautiful. That's a great metaphor. You gotta use that in your show.

Heather Gay [00:49:17] I just used it now.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] That's so great. Yeah. And that's not to say there weren't really good things in the church. It's just.

Heather Gay [00:49:26] Well, it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff, you know, like, it's just hard to know wheat from the tares. What do you separate?

John Dehlin [00:49:34] Yeah, yeah. Goats from sheep.

Heather Gay [00:49:37] Goats from sheep. Yeah. Just determining what you keep, what you reject.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] The chaff. What is it?

Heather Gay [00:49:42] It's chaff and weed stairs.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] I know.

Heather Gay [00:49:45] Get our books and Mormons out.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] We're rusty Mormons.

Heather Gay [00:49:47] We're not code switching back like we

John Dehlin [00:49:49] used to be able to, which is probably healing.

Heather Gay [00:49:51] It's healing. It's healing. But the fact that we still can, we know exactly what we're referencing is troublesome. But it's. That's why I feel like my truest friends are the ones that grew up in it and have left it because we just, we see each other through all of it.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] You know, wouldn't it be amazing to have an episode just dedicated to all the, all the ex Mormons that are kicking ass in your life? It's just like, that's the call. We were supposed to become sex workers and drug dealers and like, how about people that are billionaires now, you know,

Heather Gay [00:50:26] after living and are living their best lives, like happy, healthy, happy, healthy, thriving. I feel like my children are thriving. That was my biggest reason to stay. You know, I think that they took some hits socially because of the neighborhood and world we live in, but they are happy to take those hits because they're happier at who I've become and the life we live now. You know, they enjoy it more. I think they're thriving and I didn't know they would, but isn't that, that

John Dehlin [00:50:57] is so messed up because number one, tons of Mormon kids are totally struggling. Because kids are struggling, you know, all throughout this country there's a massive mental health crisis amongst teenagers and young adults. So Mormons can't even live up to the standard of their own kids doing great. So why should ex Mormons have to live up to the standard of their kids doing great? Because they're going to be kids not doing great and doing great in or out of the church. It's really a red herring.

Heather Gay [00:51:26] It is a red herring.

John Dehlin [00:51:27] Yeah.

Heather Gay [00:51:28] And, and I think it's something that a lot of like my kids, friends, parents hide behind is like, well, they're still active in the church. So like we're not looking at any of their other issues because, you know, they're not wearing crop tops and tank tops and you know, they're going to byu.

Church Decline and the Road Ahead

John Dehlin [00:51:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, as we know, I just, I've been told by a really reliable source, and you may have heard this quote, that the church is telling people behind the scenes that 40% of returned missionaries in 2024 are leaving the church within six months of coming home from their missions. That's the statistic that I'm told. The church is telling people behind the scenes, like a real think about that 40% of returned missionaries are leaving.

Heather Gay [00:52:20] That's our life force. Right? Like they come home, they get married, they go to the temple, they are tithing payers and the next generation of leaders.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's. The church is in crisis with its youth and its young adults. There's no question. So that's why this is an important thing to do because whether or not you think people should stay in the church or not, people are leaving the church in droves. And so don't they deserve role models? Don't they deserve stories of empowerment and of healing and growth? Because if you're a decent human being, with or without faith, you want people to thrive wherever they are. So why shouldn't the people leaving a high demand religion like Mormonism have stories of healing and growth and empowerment and possibility? You're a bad person. Forget bad Mormon. You're a bad human. If you don't want the best for everyone, regardless of their beliefs or status with the church, I think I agree.

Heather Gay [00:53:19] And on. And I would say, and if you are threatened by someone sharing their story because it is negative about something that you don't want to hear about, then that is immoral. Like to say, I don't like it, so I don't want to hear it. That is the most exclusive, elite, snobby way of thinking.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] But that is the irony there is that that is the most common Mormon reaction is that snide little. They can leave the church, but they can't leave it alone. Why do you have to spend your life, why don't you just leave and stay quiet? Why do you have to spend your life tearing, you know, just by telling your story, they'll frame it as why do you have to spend your life tearing down something that's so good and so helpful to so many people? Just be quiet, move on, you know, move along and be quiet. That's the most common reaction.

Heather Gay [00:54:09] Yeah, the most common reaction is like, are you going to ever talk about anything else? Maybe not. It's all you wanted me to talk about for the first 40 years of my life. Like, maybe now I'm going to talk about it through a different lens. You know, like, there's a reason Mormonism worked for me. I was sharing my thoughts and faith every single day with every single person that would listen. And now I'm doing the same thing. It's just, you know, the needles moved a little bit, but it doesn't invalidate, you know, what you want to talk about.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] And the church has like 80 to 100,000 plus mission depending on how you, if you count the elderly senior missionaries. The church has like over 100,000 missionaries out there all day long trying to convince people to convert. Like, oh, really? The rest of us should say so.

Heather Gay [00:54:51] We should just like let them have their fun. Yeah, yeah. It's just, I think that. But there's something about the way we are raised. And just like the dog, I mean, it's. We are taught just to run from anything negative or critical. Yeah, yeah, critical even. Like, if you love Russian literature, you read criticism of Russian literature, you don't just read people that love it. You know, if you want to. If you really are. Have an infallible faith, then you should be able to hear anything from any source and be open to receiving it. And I had to be that way for the flip side in order to recognize how much I was limiting my knowledge to. You have to. And it works both ways, you know,

John Dehlin [00:55:38] not just hear it, but welcome it. Like, if you are really confident in your faith and in your conviction, you should welcome criticism and you should welcome any story. And if you love it, you should want it to be as healing and as positive for as many people as possible. And the only way the church has a chance to improve is if they're. They know the way that it's hurting people. And so the church and its members should welcome any stories that would lead to the church improving for those who remain in.

Heather Gay [00:56:14] Yeah, I'll send a copy of this podcast over to church headquarters.

John Dehlin [00:56:19] Something tells me they're watching right now.

Heather Gay [00:56:21] Somebody tells me, what stories are you interested in sharing? Yeah, it's totally true. And I was so afraid for so long, and I still am afraid, honestly.

John Dehlin [00:56:33] Yeah. Yeah, me too.

Heather Gay [00:56:35] Why is that?

John Dehlin [00:56:36] Well, you never know, right?

Heather Gay [00:56:39] Yeah, Powers that be.

John Dehlin [00:56:41] But I mean, the world's moving in this direction, so.

Heather Gay [00:56:46] The time is now, John. The time is now. Like the. It is. It feels like. It feels like the great day of just. Is around the corner. I don't know how to say it.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] No. Humankind is moving. At least part of humankind, a significant portion of humankind is moving towards a future where people's lives aren't structured by, you know, myths that have no scientific basis, that are rooted in bigotry. Like, there's no way to deny the fact that Mormonism and probably Christianity in some way has strong elements of misogyny, of. Of the suppression of female voices. I mean, Catholic Church still only has male priests. Mormon. Mormonism still only has a patriarchy. Like, nobody can question or challenge that. You can ask whether that's good or bad for women or men, but it's rooted in patriarchy and misogyny. It's anti lgbt.

John Dehlin [00:57:55] Most. Many Christian churches are anti LGBT these days. And the racism, the historical racism in the Mormon Church, where skin is dark, skin is a curse from God. Whether it's the. The native American Lamanite story or the priesthood ban on, on Black Mormons for 150 plus years. There's no question that Mormonism is founded in racism, sexism, homophobia, misogyny and core just deception about its factual truth claims where both members and converts are not told the real story.

John Dehlin [00:58:32] So like that's just a fact. And we are moving towards the future. We're organizing with the Internet, we're organizing and young people organizations can't get away with that anymore. They just lose all their moral credibility.

Heather Gay [00:58:44] They lose their moral credibility. And it just feels like the progression of mankind is this is the era of radical acceptance as it should be. You know, we accept we had radical as Mormons, as devout Mormons, believing Mormons. And I guess I should just say for myself, I had radical acceptance for absurd theories, absurd theories of Urim and Thummim and the Liahona and how about

John Dehlin [00:59:11] a 6,000 year Earth?

Heather Gay [00:59:12] A 6,000 year Earth and you know, horses in the Mayan. You know, like I had radical acceptance for golden plates buried in a hill that the Garden of Eden was going to be in Jackson County, Missouri. I accepted and made this and had confirmation bias and made these things work.

Heather Gay [00:59:31] And I didn't have radical acceptance for, you know, sexual orientation, for, you know, different forms of marriage, for different faiths, for different gender binaries. You know what I mean? I had a binary way of thinking that and radical acceptance for ridiculous theories. And now I have radical acceptance for humans in whatever form or place or position they may find themselves and radical acceptance of everyone's pain and everyone's experience and much more skepticism for this bullshit theories. You know, it's like we switched over and that is the funnel that I wanna live my life through now. That's the lens that I wanna look at. Like as you present yourself to me and love you and join you.

John Dehlin [01:00:24] Yeah, yeah, Beautiful. So well said. You're so good. You are such a good spokesperson.

Heather Gay [01:00:31] For what though? What am I the spokesperson for?

John Dehlin [01:00:34] For healing, growth, bad Mormon, post, post high demand religion, healing and growth. You're a great spokesperson for that. And I'm an authority.

Heather Gay [01:00:43] You're the authority?

John Dehlin [01:00:43] I am.

Heather Gay [01:00:44] Okay, well then let me ask you, let me ask you. Do you feel like just talking to me, do you feel like you see growth in me every time we get together and do something like this, where we talk heart to heart?

John Dehlin [01:00:56] Oh yes. Like the difference. I remember emailing you before you decided to come on Mormon stories at all. And I'm like, this person has no idea what she's getting into with Mormon stories. You hadn't even watched Mormon stories when I first started interacting with you.

Heather Gay [01:01:13] Why would I. I'm not allowed to.

John Dehlin [01:01:15] Yeah. Yeah. So, like, the difference that do you, you, the growth you made between when I first reached out to you and then when you actually came on, I was like, whoa, she's going at light speed here. Right. But then the, but then reading your book, I was genuinely impressed with your, the wisdom and the insight in your book.

Heather Gay [01:01:32] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:01:33] So the difference between your, your coming on Mormon stories and the book was another, you know, light speed and then the difference between that and now. Yeah, you're. I, I, I'm excited.

Heather Gay [01:01:45] I will be your star pupil. No, I am.

John Dehlin [01:01:48] No, you're star pupils who's taking life by the code and. Yeah. And healing and growing in a really inspiring way. It has nothing to do with me or Mormon stories, but it's everything to

Heather Gay [01:02:07] do with you and Mormon stories, which is why I'm compelled to, like, you know, dive deeper into my own narrative and other people's that feel similar or feel like they have something to share because it has been the most formative experience of my life, and it is something that I'm still wading through. And the more influence I can have during this next phase of life, you know, the better.

John Dehlin [01:02:34] I'll just say I'll end with this. Like, like, when you think about Scientology, one of the things. And even Mormonism, what they did. Right. How much. It would be impossible to calculate how much Steve Young or the Osmonds did for the Mormon image. You know what I mean? It'd be impossible.

Heather Gay [01:02:51] Like, impossible. I have a Steve Young football in my signed football by, Signed by Steve Young in my house still.

John Dehlin [01:02:58] And by the way, I love Steve Young. I love Barb Young.

Heather Gay [01:03:01] Yes. I love the Youngs. I love the Osmonds.

John Dehlin [01:03:03] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:03:03] But I love them because they were my, they were my role models and deities, you know?

John Dehlin [01:03:08] Yeah. And, and obviously it would be impossible to calculate how much Tom Cruise and Leah Remini and John Travolta did for Scientology when it was on its ascension. Right.

Heather Gay [01:03:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] But, but you got to pay the piper. Like, it is so powerful when somebody achieves celebrity status and they're coming out of a high demand religion that isn't healthy for a lot of people. So, like, whether it's David Archuleta or Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons or Tyler Glenn from Neon Trees or you, like, that's when, that's when the needle really gets moved. Because Mormon stories is, you know, 250,000 subscribers on YouTube. I'm thrilled with that growth. That's still, you know, still. Most Mormon church members have never heard of Mormon stories. Or me. The vast majority, probably 95%, I think

Heather Gay [01:04:03] you're being very humble because you can't even go to the barbershop without getting recognized. You are a local celeb and then probably a global celeb. You are a global celeb to an audience, but you are a local celeb to everybody.

John Dehlin [01:04:17] No, no. I would position that. Go to any Utah Mormon ward and poll them. 95% have never heard of Kate Kelly of. Of any CES letter. Jeremy Runnels.

Heather Gay [01:04:30] I agree with you. I agree with you.

John Dehlin [01:04:32] There's a really strong bubble.

Heather Gay [01:04:33] There is a very strong bubble. Because even I drinking and living a little bit of a double life, I still didn't know any of those things until I started talking about it, specifically with Dre.

John Dehlin [01:04:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Real Housewives is a whole different level.

Heather Gay [01:04:51] It's a whole different level. It's far reaching, and it means a lot to a lot of people. It means a lot to me. And. And to be able to bring these worlds together. You know, just the far reaching aspect of it with the meat and the sandwich, that means so much to me is, you know, I'm really, really, really excited about this project. It is, like, all I can think about.

John Dehlin [01:05:16] Yeah.

Heather Gay [01:05:17] And for me, that's why I text you about it all the time.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] Yeah. Yeah. And I wouldn't say it's an act of charity. Cause, I mean, you're looking to make do good in the world, and this is the way you're looking to do good. But for me, it's a profound act of courage and of. I don't want to say charity, but just like being willing to use your platform more to help other people that are struggling. That's how I. That's why I would have you on Mormon stories right now to. To promote this project, is because that's the net effect of what you hope to do. And what I see as the outcome is that you're using your celebrity status, your connections with the industry to shine a spotlight on people who have experienced pain with the goal of minimizing pain in the future. Right?

Heather Gay [01:06:05] Absolutely. That's such a wonderful way to say

John Dehlin [01:06:09] it, like, and empowering and healing people for the future.

Heather Gay [01:06:11] Let's empower and heal each other through the sharing of our experiences and extend it to as many people that feel like they have some kindling to throw on the fire.

How to Submit Your Story and Wrap-Up

John Dehlin [01:06:24] Okay, so grab Your phone. And I'm going to have you read the email address one last time. It is also going to be in the description. But I want you just to one last time tell people what the email

Heather Gay [01:06:34] address to all voices small and loud, far and near, that if you have struggled or experienced similar issues or issues that have never been approached with the church and your experience with the church, we want to hear your story and we want you to send a blurb of your story and why you think it'd be important to share to this email address. It's new projectlausonproductions.com S L A U S O N productions.com and just tell me a little bit about your story and why you think it's valuable to share.

John Dehlin [01:07:14] What if they want to make a little sizzle? Like a little two minute pitch video?

Heather Gay [01:07:18] We'll take it, whatever they can add a little listen, shoot your shot. Shoot your shot.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] It's a Survivor. It's like I want to be on Survivor. I guess Real Housewives has casting, right?

Heather Gay [01:07:27] Yeah, casting. Casting is. Every television show has casting. Yeah, but yeah, you know, I think that this is a total departure from Housewives, obviously and anything Housewives related. This is like to everyone that has reached out to me because they've read Bad Mormon or because they've seen Mormon topics be discussed on Housewives or because they've listened to me on Mormon Stories. Like if you feel like this is something that where you'd be interested in sharing and be valuable to share, then that's who we wanna hear from.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] Beautiful. All right, well please, audience, please consider this opportunity. Please take advantage of it if you so choose. And Heather Gay, it's so lovely to catch up with you again and I hope you'll come back on and I really hope this thing takes off.

Heather Gay [01:08:17] I appreciate you, John. I'd come on anytime. It's free therapy for me and a chance to catch up with a dear friend.

John Dehlin [01:08:24] Beautiful. All right, we'll keep up the good work.

Heather Gay [01:08:26] Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:08:27] All right, well, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Please take advantage of this and hope you're having a great day, week, month, year. And we always appreciate your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com and we also look forward to, you know, interviewing with us. So if you want to go to MormonStories.org, go to the about section. We have an application process for you to come on Mormon Stories as well. So feel free to take advantage of

Heather Gay [01:08:55] that if you want creating all these portals and venues to tell your stories. There's I mean, and the truth is, it's like grains of sand. There's so many compelling stories out there. Like, we could join forces for the next 10 years and not tell them all.

John Dehlin [01:09:09] Yeah. All right, so take everybody. Look forward to seeing you again soon on Mormon Stories and on this exciting new production. We'll see you all again soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.