173-177: Carol Lynn Pearson – Mormon Author, Poet, Playwright, Feminist, and Philosopher
Carol Lynn Pearson is one of the most beloved and successul Mormon authors, poets, and playwrights of all time. A comprehensive listing of her creative works can be found here. Her book “Goodbye, I Love You,” about the death of her gay husband from AIDS, took the world by storm in 1986, landing her on Oprah, Phil Donahue, and many other T.V. programs. Her musical “My Turn on Earth” is one of the most beloved and successful Mormon musicals of all time. Carol Lynn has spent virtually all of her years since “Goodbye, I Love You” as an advocate for both women and gays within Mormonism. Her most recent Mormon-themed book, “No More Goodbyes“, deals with enlightening and inspirational stories of gay Mormons (and those of other faiths) coping with issues of family, religion, church, and occasionally suicide. Many of Carol Lynn’s wonderful creative works can still be purchased here. Please support her if you can.
In this 5 part interview (captured both in audio and in full High Definition video below), we discuss the following:
- Part 1: My Early Years in the Church, and the Decision to Marry Gerald
- Part 2: My Early Career, and Gerald’s Final Coming Out
- Part 3: Goodbye, I Love You: Loving Gerald Until the End
- Part 4: No More Goodbyes: Supporting Gays in the LDS Church
- Part 5: Celebrating the Divine Feminine, and Final Thoughts on Faith
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5
As a gay Mormon, I find most of the emotional trauma related to the conflict of “religion vs sexuality” is from a lack of family acceptance and support of decisions I make that may not fall in line with Mormon teachings. As one out of ten kids in my family, many of my siblings and parents have let me know that “they will always love me, but will only support me as long as I live by the Church’s principles.”
Many members in the homosexual community often think it’s as simple as “leaving the Church” to be happy as a gay Mormon, but I disagree that that is the root of the problem. Would you agree/disagree and why? What is your advice in dealing with a less than accepting family when it comes to homosexuality?
-Evan Clayson
For me an obvious question would be Carol Lynn’s advice on being able to function in the church as a liberal thinker. I know she mentioned in her book “No More Goodbyes” that she had been contacted various times by General Authorities for different reasons. I would love to hear how she is able to be rather openly liberal and yet somehow not offend “the powers that be.”
If you are able to formulate the question in an appropriate way, I would also like to know what her vision for homosexuals in the church might be. Does she think the church is too stringent in expecting gays to remain celibate their whole life? Does she think there is a possibility for “practicing” gays in committed relationships to still remain active and faithful in the church?
I’m sure this is already on your list, but here it is anyway: Does she still believe in the church? How? Why?
In the instances where gay/lesbian/trans gender Mormons decide to leave the church to live their alternative life, what percentage of their family’s also end up leaving the church in support of gay son or daughter?
What is the single most thought, inspiration, truth or concept that you, at this time in your life, fully believe, practice or accept?
(That is if you had to pick one!)
I know Anne Rice (writer of the Vampire Chronicles) found it easy to adapt to returning to her childhood faith as a Roman Catholic while retaining her liberal views (such as women being allowed to be priests and active homosexuals being accepted in the Catholic Church). How does someone maintain liberal views while staying in a church as conservative as the LDS Church? Also, how does someone act as an activist for these liberal views without coming off as trying to undermine the General Authorities or the Church’s official teachings?
When your name – Carol Lynn Pearson – is mentioned, thoughts of your past deep personal losses / tragedies / grief come to mind. Which Gospel teachings or Gospel-inspired acts helped you to grow the most, in the midst of these experiences?
There have been a large number of homosexual men who have committed suicide in the month of July in SLC (three that I know of to date). All of these young men were reportedly raised in the LDS church and felt a large amount of pain and anguish due to the influence of the LDS church on their personal lives as well as friends, family and the community in general.
I know the LDS church will not change their fundamental views on homosexuality, at least not now, but there is an enormous need for them to address this situation and to take steps to change the number of young men and women who feel they have no other option than to end their own lives. How can we as LDS members or non, homosexuals or heterosexuals help the general authorities/ leaders of the LDS church understand how the church and its members influence the suicide rates among homosexual men and women and the urgent need for them to step in and change it?
Sister Pearson has certainly been increasingly ‘colourful’ in recent years concerning her opposition to the Church’s treatment of homosexuals. I have always been curious to know of her current Church standing. Is she active still? Has she been disfellowshipped or even excommunicated because of her public position? If not, then surely she has been subject to warnings and sanctions, and possibly even probation? How does she reconcile her testimony of the gospel and the scrutiny that must be forever looming over her head from church leaders?
Please ask the “Oprah” question: Sister Pearson, What do you know to be true?
Carol Lynn’s believes are very all-encompassing and ecumenical in nature. How does she reconcile her religiously-holistic approach to the Church’s claim of exclusive truth?
Carol Lynn’s beliefs are very all-encompassing and ecumenical in nature. How does she reconcile her religiously-holistic approach to the Church’s claim of exclusive truth?
How does she STAND/tolerate the General Authorities???
My question is pretty much “twin” to that of Reynolds Cooper above. I would prefix my dialogue by saying though, how very much I love and admire Carol Lynn Pearson for the caregiving she’s offered to loving men & women, often shabbily treated by ecclesiastical leaders.
Carol Lynn has helped scores, if not hundreds of SSA folks, to embrace self-worth and love effulgent. She has saved lives.
Recently I bought Carol’s name up to my TBM ex-wife. I was shocked by her rejection and dismissal of any good works attributed to her.
She claimed to have known Carol and called her names, a personal attack. I could but wonder if Carol’s been subjected to such behavior by LDS women before? We are not talking small town Utah resident here, we are talking a enlightened California main-stream lady, even (slightly) liberal.
I chose my words carefully at that point (she was in my home, baby sitting our grandkids at the time). I talked about my observation over the last fifty years; the anti-black, anti-women, anti-Native American, anti-gay LDS stance. (our oldest son is openly gay). I asked how Christians can follow such a line of reasoning. The conversation quickly ended. Such anger seems so unhealthy to me. It may have more to do with my opposition to Proposition H8, we attend the same ward, so I may have embarrassed her.
What future does Ms. Pearson see for the relationship between the church and gay and lesbian members? What are her hopes/and best case scenarios where this relationship is concerned?
http://blog.beliefnet.com/flunkingsainthood/2010/07/mormons-and-gays-guest-blogger-carol-lynn-pearson-reports-on-a-stake-gathering.html
Has there been a change in the attitude of Californian members in the post-Prop 8 age?
I am a parent of several young children. How would you recommend LDS people raise their children in the church in a way that would prepare them to survive (or even be happy and flourish) if they later discover they are gay? There appears to be a delicate balance of maintaining both faith and realism.
I would like to hear more about the time in her life when she and Gerald were trying to figure out what to do about their marriage. In her book she seems to have been so very understanding and the divorce seemed to go so smoothly. Was that the way it was or was it more difficult for her than that?
I’m interested in hearing about Carol’s involvement in the theatre world and the creative process behind her plays.
How would you recommend gay Mormons reconcile or approach our relationships with our misunderstanding families (in California and otherwise) who, on the one hand love us as individuals, but on the other actively seek to discriminate against gays and our community via the legislature?
I’m curious about how she reconciles feminism and patriarchy in the church. I also am interested in a previously mentioned question about how to be liberal and stand for your own views without offending church leaders and conservative church members.
Short of a changing the behavioral stranded on sexuality how do you believe the church could be a more welcoming place for our homosexual members?
What does she think of someone like me, who experienced ssa as a teen but did not want to “be” gay? Does she believe that “sexual orientation” is an immutable (unchangeable) entity. How does she feel about evergreen, narth, and other organizations that support self-determination? Would she say I’m in denial, Invalidate my experience and marginalized others like me who have experienced change in attractions?
just thank her for the insiration she has been for me
for the last two decades
NOT to give up on my husband of 32 yars
who started being aserial adulteror 11 years ago and i ve no given up on him yet
if carol could do what she did for gerald then i could do no less for the father of my children
does she think i am mad
linn uk
Does she have anything encouraging to say about the future of gay Mormons stemming from personal interaction she may be had recently with general church leaders?
How did she feel about the church sending a representative to the SLC gay housing/work ordinance with a message of support? Encouraged or was it just a PR move in view of the post-prop 8 negative publicity?
Does she feel her play, Facing East, helped many hard-line LDS re-think their position on gays?
John,
Thanks for interviewing Carol Lynn, she is a hero to many of us. Please tell her how much she inspires some us. You’ll do great!
Russ
Does she see a time when women will hold the priesthood?
Marsco
Also does she know about the problems with the Book of Abraham? And how does this affect her view of a pre-existence and the connection there with both Saturdays Warrior, and My turn on Earth ?
Just a crass, commercial note: Much of Sister Pearson’s stuff is available through secondary sources, i.e. E-Bay, Deseret Book auctions etc. Please remember that the author does not receive any compensation through secondary sources. Please consider buying through the web site above, Amazon or any other primary source. This Gem of a woman still needs to make a living and we can help in that regard!
Thank you for doing this interview John and Sister Pearson. I had not intended to sit down and listening to the whole thing all at once but the story and experiences shared in this particular podcast were so compelling. As a Lesbian Mormon I wish I could get my family to listen to this interview. These are precisely the words of wisdom, love and inclusion that families need to hear.
I loved especially the comment that we need to look within ourselves and realize that the answers we are all searching for are already there.
I have skipped around and watched a few of the episodes. This was worth the weight. I still struggle a little here and a little there as I find my place again, but one thing that Carol Lynn said that struck home was the idea that I need to be open with where I stand. Yes, I may disrupt things, but at the same time I am not trying to ruin the Church or say that I could run it better. Also, originally coming from a more mainstream Christian background, several social issues like homosexuality and feminism were as a much a problem in Christianity in general as with Mormonism. So, some of these social concerns aren’t unique to Mormonism, but are part of a larger problem within religious tradition. Also, it is empowering to realize that being different in the Church is a good thing because people like Carol Lynn are able to vocalize things that are a concern to many Mormons. Who knows? Maybe even I can be a voice for what many Mormons hold to, but are afraid to talk about.
Fascinating interview, John, very eye-opening. As for the idea of the anti-gay pill mentioned in video number two, it is now a reality. Take a look at this story:
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-sci-adrenal-20100815,0,5576220.story
That was an AMAZING podcast. May we all feel our pioneer blood beating as we wake up each dawn to find and create the promised land.
As I lay in stories (diet coke – cookies) to begin this odyssey of listening, may I share something. Recently I was approached by the high priest in my ward who was giving oversight of the YES on prop. 8 campaign. I was openly critical through those months leading up to the
vote. He indicated to me that I was right. He didn’t have the fortitude to say “NO” when asked to lead the campaign. He asked what led me to stand in such open opposition. I say that two gay brothers and a gay son were my principle factor. He looked me directly in the eyes and said, “Of course, I should have known. You had walked in their paths.” He apologized.
what a RESOURCE she is, as a collector of so many precious stories! this interview is SO valuable. thank you thank you, john dehlin.
October LDS Conference – 2010
The Conference Center – Salt Lake City, Utah
After the opening song and prayer, it is announced rather than having two separate sessions of conference, one special four & half hour session will be televised around the world. Thousands of Saints watching the conference are surprised to see the 15 highest ecclesiastical leaders leave the stand and remove to the first row of audience seats. A large screen descends from the high ceiling. Lights dim, silence fills the great hall.
A five part interview of Elder John Dehlin & Sister Carol Lynn Pearson begins to proceed forth to the institutional church and to all the world. It will change human hearts and expand human parameters. A revered high priestess begins speaking to her sisters and to all of God’s children. Thank you Blossom. Thank you John.
I just wanted this interview to go on and on. I love Carol Lynn Pearson.
What a beautiful, beautiful person. I’m reminded of a verse from Matthew, “Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” Carol Lynn Pearson shines so brightly……
Thank you John for bringing her light to us.
I have listened to the entire interview twice in the last few days. I felt like I was meeting a kindred spirit in Ms. Pearson. I aspire to have as much class and grace one day.
John, it would be incredible if you could periodically meet with her for Mormon Stories.
Evan Clayson you may want to visit the Family Acceptance Project at http://familyproject.sfsu.edu/publications. Caitlin Ryan is the Director of the the Family Acceptance Project and has been involved in gay issues since the early 80′s when the AIDS epidemic first came out. She was surprised at how many gay’s were homeless since many had been kicked out of their homes. In research her group has completed they have found that the well being for LGBT children is directly tied to the acceptance or rejection of their families.
Amazing interview…
I wish there were more resources for gay folks who want to stay connected to the Church, but who also want to affirm the humanity and goodness of same-sex relationships. Carol Lynn is one of the few voices of encouragement to folks in that situation. The words about believing in yourself before you believe in anything else, and the sanctity of individual free choice and conscience were powerful. But there’s so much more that needs to be explored around this…
Leaving the Church isn’t the solution to gay Mormon suicide. In many ways, it’s the impossibility of taking the Mormon out of the gay Mormon that makes this such a problem. Running away from the Church doesn’t solve our problems. We have to face the theological and spiritual issues squarely and compassionately and honestly, but I don’t see much of that happening. LDS theology and homosexuality are still treated like oil and water… Carol Lynn offers a few good starting points, but there’s so much more that needs to be done.
Maybe this is work that can’t be done by anybody for anybody… Maybe its something each individual needs to wrestle with. At the least, we need a community that is more supportive of individual wrestling, if that is the case. I don’t know…
Thanks for doing this!
Wow. I am surprised at my reaction to this series. I am one of those who have never empathized with the plight of gays, LDS or otherwise. While I am an active non-believing Mormon, my political ideals have not wandered the same path as my religious orthodoxy. So, I often find myself rolling my eyes everytime these issues comes up yet again among us heterodox Mormons. I have never been able to understand why some people care so much.
Still, I am TRULY moved by this interview! I was brought to tears several times listening to Sister Pearson’s anguish and her love for her gay husband. It breaks my heart that there might be so many more people like him among us who suffer in silence in the LDS culture. I do believe this will cause a major change in my mindset. Thanks Sister Pearson and John!
Thank you John and Carol Lynn. I have been waiting for this interview since the inception of Mormon Stories. It was worth waiting for, believe me. Since the 70s when I was at BYU I have admired Carol Lynn Pearson and looked up to her as an role model and inspiration.
This interview was profoundly moving. I do have a criticism. I found myself very frustrated at the comments about how only a gay husband would support you in your artistic endeavors. I am a wannabe poet, writer, musician, etc. and have always striven to encourage creativity in everyone I can.
Much love!
I have looked forward to this interview since the moment I heard of its coming. It was all that I dreamed of and more! Thank you, Thank you to you both!! I shed tears in many of the moments that I felt I was sharing with both of you. As I listened to Carol’s life story and learned about all those that she has helped, particularly her husband, I am struck by her incredibly Christlike character. What an awesome example she is!! Also, my pen was busy nearly the entire interview writing down so many of the poetry references that she listed and recited here…beautiful stuff. I will refer to them often. Gazelem about sums it up a few comments above…how powerful this interview is. I have always felt a great love and compassion for gays since the time I understood the concept as a 12 or 13 year old girl, but continually smothered those feelings because of my faith. I am grateful to people like Carol Lynn who work so tirelessly to give so many of us a place to accept that part of ourselves so that we can help strengthen this movement of acceptance in our culture. I have renewed vigor to be more open about my position in my ward and social circles. Thank you, thank you!!
“I don’t hate the Church, the Church hates me.”
That quote knocked my socks off. There are many gay members who try to make the church work for them. I don’t get it; I don’t know why they are so interested in a church that hates them, but they are. Why doesn’t the LDS Church get it? Why don’t they understand that there are gay members who want to be active, believing members?
Oh, one more favorite quote (sorry if I don’t get it verbatim): “The most conservative thing the gay community has tried to do has been the one that caused them the most trouble.”
What a profound and remarkable woman! Thank you, John, for doing this interview. It has deeply touched me.
I didn’t know much about Sis. Pearson before this interview. I feel that my outlook has been greatly enriched by learning about her here. John, I was right with you in your closing questions (three strikes, etc.) and I was also glad to hear Sis. Pearson’s responses. Deciding how to approach one’s mormonism after an awakening to a full knowledge of it is such a difficult and personal thing. In my opinion, the Church in general has a long, long way to go before its membership can embrace those in “the borderlands.” Having people like Sis. Pearson in our midst, now more and more visible because of the internet, can only help that progress along.
The pioneer poem was a wonderful way to wrap up the interview. I’m looking forward to experiencing more of Sis. Pearson’s works. Thank you to both of you!
[...] I listened to John Dehlin’s interview of Carol Lynn Pearson at Mormon Stories, I realized both of them fall in this category as well. Carol Lynn Pearson, a [...]
Homerun John!!!! I was visiting my very orthodox mother in Utah last week. As we drove back and forth to BYU Education Week, we listened to this interview each day. She commented at how she felt touched by Carol’s story. One interview is not going to change her, but there was “constructive conversation” about this one particular issue. Hopefully, this will reach many, many others.
[...] on Mormon Stories in a multi-hour interview about her life, advocacy, and work. You can find the whole thing here, but one part that really stood out – and really makes me want to swamp an LDS publisher site to [...]
Thank you John and Carol Lynn for this fabulous interview. For those who have written that they wish they could benefit more often from Carol Lynn’s inspiration, I’d encourage you to visit her website (www.clpearson.com) and sign up for her free monthly newsletter. It’s like having Carol Lynn as your virtual visiting teacher — a monthly message filled with wisdom, ending with a poem. Again, heartfelt appreciation to both John and Carol Lynn for sharing your time and gifts with us.
What an amazing podcast, John and Carol Lynn!
One part in particular stuck with me. I appreciated Carol’s sharing of the two perspectives of parents dealing with their children’s coming out. One, a stake president, felt he needed to resign his position when his young son came out as being gay. Another couple, upon learning of their child’s homosexuality, boarded the next cross-country flight to be with their child, hold him, soothe him and reassure him of their love.
As I told this anecdote to my wife this morning (she hadn’t listened to the podcast yet), our 5-year-old son cuddling with us in bed, I was surprised to find tears streaming down my face as I considered the possibility of ever NOT loving my child with my whole heart, regardless of his eventual sexual orientation. I couldn’t do it. I love him too much and I hope we can all be more like that second couple, willing to support and comfort our friends and neighbors, regardless of sexual orientation.
So again, thank you John and Carol Lynn!
Excellent podcast. I was deeply moved and found myself tearing up a number of times (kind of hard to explain at work… oh well)
This is an absolute must-hear for all LDS. If only I could get my TBM family to listen to it— I think it would help them to see the issues surrounding homosexuality and religion a more compassionate way.
Thanks to John and Carol Lynn for taking the time to do this. I really appreciate it.
Wish there were more members like Carol Lynn (and John) where I live. Then maybe I could stomach going back to Church.
There were a lot of interesting things stated here. As a non-mormon it helped me understand the framework of Mormon thinking. Her poem Pioneers sums up her die hard loyalty. As the orgaizational structure of the church, so seems she has a parallel organized structure in her life. Church first (deeply, deeply rooted), Family (including the LOVE of her life) and others. I was writhing in pain for her as she talked about her husbands death. I wondered if any of his loves from the homosexual community came around for his death (not his funeral but his death–because Ironically the woman that loved him most kept vigil at his bedside–). I felt sad in a way that her life circumstances never allowed her to come into a sort of fullness of femininity. (and my definition of that is NOT the mormon one). The discussion on Heavenly Mother was interesting but in a different way for me–because it revealed the desperate longing of women to be validated to their core. Her understanding of what God is saddens me. Imagine if you will that GOD is Bigger than this Heavenly Father. That he is a He–but that He defies the limited scope of humanity. What if he is a He but at the same time His nature encapsulated the fullness of femininity and Masculinity. What if he created man and created woman as distinct and separate beings. What if each creation reflects his essence and nature which in turn give glory back to Him. What if having a relationship with him meant finding the fullness and meaning of who we are, and who He is. The poem pioneers sounded like she was still searching for something that makes sense of all of her circumstances. I loved this interview. It made me cry.
This is kind of like the priesthood ban thing. It will take a prophet sympathetic to LBGT’s before the right question will be asked to get the right answer. Trouble is, I will never be the prophet. Maybe they need to be educated a little so that the change process can speed up/be started.
Absolutely phenomenal interview. Thank You Carol Lynn!
One question that was not addressed is, “What can a heterosexual do to promote progressive thought about gay issues?”
I do my best to be vocal, but I wish I could do more.
Regarding Clayton’s question above–in addition to being vocal with the membership, speak to, or write to, your local leaders as well. And the general authorities. Write letters expressing sadness; say you are hoping and praying for better light on all this. Direct your stake and ward leaders to my website, http://www.clpearson.com; on the front page is a link to a long document I’ve created about the good work we have been doing here in the Oakland Stake. Every conversation generated leads to something good.
Carol Lynn Pearson is a national treasure. John, thanks so much for this interview. It should be submitted to the Library of Congress.