An Illustration of Why I Do Mormon Stories Podcast : Anti-LDS DVDs in Arizona
For the last year or so, I’ve had 3 primary goals for all I do with Mormon Stories Podcast:
–More Knowledge within Mormonism
–More Understanding/Empathy/Compassion within Mormonism
–Less Pain within Mormonism
When I conduct an interview, it is always with these 3 goals in mind.
Recently I’ve had to discuss and justify (in a friendly setting) the costs/benefits of what I do (which is a very healthy exercise, I might add). Clearly I feel like what I’m/we’re trying to do is a good thing, but sometimes it’s hard to articulate.
Perhaps this recent news article I stumbled upon today helps to illustrate this a bit.
Basically, a group of anti-Mormon evangelicals has developed a DVD entitled “Jesus Christ/Joseph Smith” to convince members of the LDS Church to leave it. They are distributing 20,000 DVDs to members of the LDS Church this week, in coordination with LDS General Conference this weekend. Here is one example of how a member of the bloggernacle handled the issue. It was a very interesting reaction (collect and destroy).
Now, the evangelical group says about their approach, “We’ve found this works very well. We need to step out in faith to do it,” yet the LDS spokesman says, “It won’t phase members of our church one iota. They’re strong enough in their own beliefs. It’s water off their backs.”
Who’s right? I think that both are. The truth is somewhere in the middle. Anti-Mormonism has made a dent in Mormonism over the past few years, AND the testimonies of members are often quite resilient.
But I do think that the LDS representative is perhaps the least accurate of the two. If the DVD will not have an iota of impact on members, then why collect and destry the DVDs before members get a chance to view? What is the fear? Are our testimonies like soap bubbles (to be protected in the palms of our hands), or like jackhammers that can divide rock asunder?
Now, let me be clear: I think that what this group is trying to do is extremely lame for a number of reasons. I feel that they are inaccurate, deceptive, and most importantly, EXTREMELY hypocritical. For a reference, here is FAIR’s response to the video. I also think that their distribution method is tragically flawed — devout LDS folks are clearly just collecting the DVDs off of car windshields in church parking lots and community doorknobs, and throwing hundreds of them at a time into the trash before folks are ever available to actually view.
That said, I feel very confident that the LDS Church is operating from a position of weakness in this very important way: the evangelicals (in many instances) know more about factual LDS Church history and doctrine than the average member of the LDS Church does — and so this puts the Church in the uncomfortable and weaker position of figuring out how to deal with members being blindsided by factual stuff that they should not be learning through 3rd parties. In addition, members of the LDS Church are not generally experienced in thinking about, and even defending church history and doctrine — yet these folks clearly are.
The playing field, for the members, is simply not level. They are left to fight an uphill battle (if they want to interact with people outside of Mormonism).
Well, that’s what Mormon Stories is (or tries to be) all about. Trying to tackle these issues head-on in an honest, candid, open and intellectually accessible (non-academic) way, so that LDS Church members can learn about all this difficult stuff from fellow-members, in the context of faith — so that when the DVD arrives on their door step, they can throw it in, watch it, and have the reaction, “I know all this. This is nothing new. And here’s where they have it all wrong….”
If members were adequately prepared regarding our factual history and doctrine, and were well-versed in being able to discuss and justify it, not only would this DVD initiative be a non-event, but it likely would not have have ever been initiated. It might even become a missionary opportunity. Instead, sadly, we have to pull out the “religious discrimination and bigotry” card as our only real response, and then try to gather and throw away as many of the DVDs as possible before folks actually view them.
That’s how I see it, anyway. And that’s what Mormon Stories is trying to accomplish.
How do you see it?
Maybe proximity to the temple.. That ward is closer than ours…
Bronx wrote: “. . . SHAME ON ANY OF US WHO TERMINATE OUR MEMBERSHIP FROM ANY ORGANIZATION DUE TO BEING “OFFENDED” BY SOMETHING WE DIDN’T FULLY UNDERSTAND IN THE FIRST PLACE.”
Bronx, I believe one thing you overlook is that such a full understanding [regardless of the religious organization] is acquired over time in a person’s life. For instance, the acquisition of this full understanding involves a process and a personal commitment to that process. Hence the words of Isaiah “. . . Precept upon precept; line upon line . . .” [see Isaiah 28:10; KJV] serve to encourage the one seeking a fuller understanding to remain expectant and that eventually over time enlightenment will be experienced—but not without personal investment and trust.
I believe many who join the LDS Church do so expecting to grow in their understanding of God and a host of other life changing LDS gospel truths. They expect to be challenged and stretched as they take on this “new life”. However, what new believers in the LDS Church (seasoned ones as well) don’t expect to find in this understanding process are historical findings that compromise one’s integrity to maintain belief in what once was believed as an inspiring and exclusive doctrinal truth. And many LDS individuals experience such an encounter well after investing a lot of their heart, time, and energy to a cause they truly believed was true.
In light of this—I don’t believe there is any “shame” in terminating ones membership from any religious institute, especially when an adherent discovers historical findings that cause one to question the claims and character of its leader. Where is the “shame” in committing to something or someone you thought to be true and inspired of God only to discover later that that which you embraced as truth was a modern, revised, and even an embellished version of the truth? Many who leave the Church do so because they are unable to reconcile the two.
Regarding Mormonism I hear John Dehlin saying lets deal with the historical findings related to Joseph Smith in a manner that openly and honestly attempts to reconcile the two (past with the present). Doing so might absorb some of the shock and awe–
bronx shouted: “HAD THE MORMON CHURCH DONE SOMETHING LIKE THIS TO ANY OTHER CHURCH DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT KIND OF MEDIA COVERAGE WOULD BE ALL OVER THIS?”
How many Book of Mormons (or is it Books of Mormon?) has the CoJCoLDS flooded the earth with?
I mean, nobody would be offended by what it says in First Nephi 14, would they?:
9 And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.
10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.
You’re either with us or you’re with the great whore of all the earth. That’s the message in the book we are currently attempting to flood the earth with. Really, it is astonishing to see people in a church that claims to be the only one on earth authorized by God to seal things on earth and in heaven, and that has as its stated mission the conversion of every human being, living and dead, to its gospel, get so exercised when people who don’t share their views do a little “missionary work” of their own.
Comment by Equality — March 30, 2007 # 55
Yes, we flood the earth w/the BOM and INVITE others to receive it by “choice”.
GOSPEL does not = CHURCH
Many people from many denominations will be saved (and many Mormons won’t be saved) because of their faith in Christ and their submission to Him as Lord and Savior.
Equality (#8),
Many members of the church haven’t received the sure witness of the HG at the point in time when they come into contact with those things that could trouble their faith. The church leaders know that, wouldn’t you think? I don’t know that the church really has any concern about those that have received the undeniable witness. But there are many that haven’t yet, including those that are investigating the church.
I’m assuming that you’ve personally had the witness of the HG so that there really isn’t anything out there that would sway your beliefs in the core truth claims of the LDS Church. Am I mistaken in this assumption? Not everyone is in that position, however. Of course the church would want to protect, where they are able to do so, the individuals who have not yet received that divine witness to the truth.
I think that this is also (at least partially) the motivation of those that would take the DVD’s off of the cars of the unsuspecting and chuck them.
BTW, I’ve seen the DVD online and there are things in the production that would trouble a person who has not received a witness of the truth, or who’s faith is on stony/shallow ground for one reason or another, or who has not had/spent the time and resources to weather the storm of doubt and come out the other end of the storm with a different but stronger/resilient faith.
The normal defintiion of testimony is knowledge. You either saw the car accident or you didn’t. If you did, you know what you saw. If you didn’t, no one should be able to get you to say that you did.
So, the question needs to be: do those with a “testimony” really have knowledge?
Is a feeling knowledge?
And does that knowledge really encompass everything from what happened 150+ years ago to a farm boy in upstate New York to what will happen to us all when we die?
I can’t help asking these questions . . .
Did anyone else get the sense that Ballard was responding directly to some of the accusations made against the church in this DVD?
Sorry — I should qualify what I just said. The comments Ballard made in the Sunday mormong session of conference today — they seemed to me to be a tailored response to the accusatins against the Book of Mormon in the Jesus/Joseph Smith DVD. I wish Ballard wouldn’t have said what he said to the effect of “I cannot fathom how anyone could accuse us of worshipping a differernt Jesus.” I wish he would come out and talk about the differences between traditional biblical interpretation and modern “revealed” interpretations. I think it was implied in things he said, but I wish it were more explicit so that the take-home message isn’t simeply “yes, Mormons are Christians, there are no differences.”
I am not sure if such a statement would have been accurate. We don’t believe in the Nicaean creed but traditional Christians do. We also don’t believe in the saving grace of the atonement. Traditional Christians do.
There are substantive differences in the image of Christ in Mormonism and traditional Christianity. That’s not necessarily a bad thing but we should have the courage of our convictions. Otherwise the restoration becomes meaningless and our members become confused.
Exactly. That’s why I wish the conference talks would focus more on those differences. As it was, I felt that the take-home message was “Mormons are Christians, there are no differences” and, like you, I don’t think that is an accurate picture. I would like to see those substantive differencs more openly discussed and justified to give us and our children a greater courage in our convictions. I found myself breaking into the middle of the talks to point things out to my kids that I wish the speakers were pointing out themselves.
I just recently discovered this Mormon Stories blog, and I can say that the podcasts and messages I have read so far certainly made watching conference more interesting for me this year.
Molklorist, If Ballard was responding directly to some of the accusations made against the church in the DVD, we better be willing to believe in modern revelation, because his talk was on paper, submitted, and translated weeks before the DVD hit the streets.
mentalgymnast (#57) said:
“Many members of the church haven’t received the sure witness of the HG at the point in time when they come into contact with those things that could trouble their faith.”
Equality says:
I thought every faithful member was washed totally clean of all sin and was justified by the atonement of Christ upon baptism and, just after baptism, was given the gift of the Holy Ghost. Each week, the member with a repentant heart who takes the Sacrament is renewed in the faith. It seems to me, that most active members of the Church who say they have a tesimony of the gospel believe they have received that testimony from the Holy Ghost. And there are statements from church leaders that say the testimony that comes from the Holy Ghost is more sure and solid than knowledge obtained any other way. They are not referring to the Second Anointing or “more sure word of prophecy,” by the way. It is the ordinary rank-and-file member of the church with a testimony that I was referring to in my comment in #8. Why would their testimony be damaged by a video that contains falsehoods? If the Holy Ghost is their constant companion (and isn’t that a promise directly from God), how could such be deceived by a silly little video? If it doesn’t contain truth, that is.
mentalgymnast said:
“I’m assuming that you’ve personally had the witness of the HG so that there really isn’t anything out there that would sway your beliefs in the core truth claims of the LDS Church.”
Equality says:
The first part of this sentence is a valis assumption, at least insofar as the term “witness of the HG” is commonly understood in believing Mormon circles. The second part of your sentence is a conclusion that does not necessarily (and in this instance, in fact, does not) follow from the first.
mentalgymnast said:
“I think that this is also (at least partially) the motivation of those that would take the DVD’s off of the cars of the unsuspecting and chuck them.”
Equality says:
I agree that may be their motivation. In the words of Neil Peart, “those who know what’s best for us must rise and save us from ourselves.” I get it.
I’ve seen the DVD also, and agree there are things that could be troubling to people who know only the correlated church version of historical events. There is also a lot of sanctimonious biblical proof-texting that I think most Mormons would be able to shrug off quite easily.
“…we better be willing to believe in modern revelation, because his talk was on paper, submitted, and translated weeks before the DVD hit the streets.”
Choose your own response:
a. Thank you Tytus — the proof I have been looking for for so long!!!
b. Are you sure it’s only weeks — I’m pretty sure I heard that talk before.
Cheers.
Equality (#64) says:
I thought every faithful member was washed totally clean of all sin and was justified by the atonement of Christ upon baptism…
MG: yes…
…and, just after baptism, was given the gift of the Holy Ghost.
MG: yes…
…Each week, the member with a repentant heart who takes the Sacrament is renewed in the faith.
MG: yes…
…It seems to me, that most active members of the Church who say they have a tesimony of the gospel believe they have received that testimony from the Holy Ghost.
MG: they may believe that and in some cases that may be true…
…And there are statements from church leaders that say the testimony that comes from the Holy Ghost is more sure and solid than knowledge obtained any other way.
MG: yes…
…They are not referring to the Second Anointing or “more sure word of prophecy,” by the way. It is the ordinary rank-and-file member of the church with a testimony that I was referring to in my comment in #8. Why would their testimony be damaged by a video that contains falsehoods?
MG: because they may have not received the “baptism by fire” that the scriptures refer to. Their testimony may not be based upon the sure foundation of an undeniable witness of the Spirit.
…If the Holy Ghost is their constant companion (and isn’t that a promise directly from God), how could such be deceived by a silly little video? If it doesn’t contain truth, that is.
MG: I don’t know that the HG is a constant companion for a majority of the members of the church. Maybe an occasional companion. Do you honestly think that the HG is constantly with all baptized members of the church simply because they’ve jumped through the hoops of receiving the ordinances? C’mon.
So…back to your #8, I think the church knows that there are many members who could be negatively impacted by anti-mormon propaganda because they are not securely grounded in the faith.
“So…back to your #8, I think the church knows that there are many members who could be negatively impacted by anti-mormon propaganda because they are not securely grounded in the faith.”
Or, the church knows there are many members, regardless of their personal spiritual experiences, who may be negatively impacted by any information not strictly controlled and disseminated by the correlation committee of the church, because most people can only maintain a “testimony” if they are shielded from the truth. Perhaps. It’s just a possibility. I could be wrong.
Equality (#64) says:
The first part of this sentence is a valis assumption, at least insofar as the term “witness of the HG” is commonly understood in believing Mormon circles.
MG: I assume you meant “valid”. Then you have received the “baptism by fire”? Is the HG your constant companion? Again, do you think that the HG is a constant companion for a majority of members of the church? Whether this is or isn’t the case would play an important part and be a factor in whether or not a person could be duped by faulty or incomplete information wouldn’t it? Has this been a factor for you personally in being able to discern truth from fiction?
My family got this DVD on their doorstep, and so did their newly converted LDS neighbors. The Mission Pres asked the missionaries to go to the new members and investigators homes and ask if they could “dispose of” the DVDs for them. So, the neighbors obediently obliged. Then later, they felt their inteligence and even their agency had been insulted so they asked my dad (Home teacher and friend) to bring his copy over and watch it with them.
They were shocked, as both are new to the battle about Mormonism, but handled it well.
I sent my dad the link to FAIR with the response, and he said it helped a lot, but I think the call for dispoal from the Mission Pres was crazy. People have the right to watch the DVD and learn the truth.
I find it interesting that my biggest issue with the church right now (representation and influence of women) is completely missing from the DVD (from what I can tell from the FAIR response). Is this a similar issue in other Christian churches?
I am also surprised that the DVD was only distributed in AZ, when it was a production made in UT.
According to the Deseret News, the DVD is going to be distributed in Utah, as well as other places with a high concentration of LDS folks. I think what your SP did was silly– it just called attention to the DVD. Not that it’s a great thing for a new convert to receive, but wanting to take it away just highlights it.
“They were shocked,”
What is it these new members were shocked at, I wonder? It wouldn’t be the historical information about Joseph’s polygamy, the multiple First Vision accounts, and the lack of archaeological support for the Book of Mormon, would it? Those things are all covered by the missionaries before a new convert is baptized, aren’t they? As the apologists like to tell us, “everyone knows” all that stuff those crazy “antis” put in their books and videos. What’s there to be shocked by? Or were they shocked that there are evangelical Christians who think Mormons worship a different Jesus or misinterpret the Bible? That’s kind of common knowledge, isn’t it?
I don’t know why they were shocked. The only quote I heard was about how people should just preach their own faith, not go around knocking down someone elses.
They are really new members, and I don’t know the missionaries did or did not cover with them by way of preventatively airing out the Mormon closet. My guess is very little, which is why the Mission Pres asked for all the DVDs to be disposed of.
i hesitate to say this on a friendly blog, but, here goes, is it just me, or are the missionaries being used as tools/pawns in this game?
with less media hype at the time of my mission, i didnt have to do things like this. i have huge sympathy for the missionaries that are charged with such an assigment. all i had to do was deliver a families are forever video to a few people. this seems tougher to pull off.
as a side note, i saw our local missionaries in an extended conversation with a homeless person today. bad memories. really bad memories.
As a former LDS person and now an Evangelical Christian. I do not think the point of the DVD is to get Mormons to leave the LDS organization. The thrust of the issue is about coming to know the true Jesus Christ. And what the true teaching of Jesus Christ are all about.