In parts 1 and 2 of a 4-part series, Eldon Kartchner discusses: losing his battle against same-sex attraction as a Mormon, and his experience living a successful mixed-orientation marriage as a gay Mormon. He also discusses his feelings about the Josh and Lolly Weed story.
Part 1
Part 2
37 Responses
Loved the first two parts of this interview…there are some commonalities with my experience, but then again, of course, a lot of differences too…I’ll look forward to the 3rd and 4th parts.
Part 2 was SO GOOD. I think that this section features a good primer of some of the inadequacies in our construct system of sexuality, especially with the discussion of expectations that comes later on.
I think one term that hasn’t really hit the “mainstream” but is most commonly discussed in asexual communities for sure is demisexuality.
Andrew, thanks for the education; I looked up “demisexuality” and have taken opportunity to consider it’s definition and application. A very interesting concept – while I would not say I am demisexual, because I don’t require emotional connection for sexual attraction, I still think it could be said that my relationship with Heather was a demisexual experience, since sexual connection arose from emotional connection, amongst other things.
And I’m glad the part about “expectations” came across, because even as I have thought about it since this interview with John, I feel even stronger that our expectations are so pivotal to both things we do that we shouldn’t, and things we do that we should (or want to).
So, again, thanks for making the discussion continue in my mind, and heightening my awareness even further.
Eldon
Thank you Eldon (& John) for this interview. I really appreciate your discussion about ‘expectations’ in the church and in the community.
The way that the expectations are set up in church, with your whole afterlife, and exaltation hanging on the balance of you meeting those ‘divinely’ sanctioned ‘expectations’ can be so damaging on an individual level.
I’ve listened to a lot of episodes on the FairCast podcast, where homosexuality is discussed. And this one guy leading the discussion describes his own journey to caving into those expectations, because that is what he *really* wanted – and now he is allegedly living the happy mormon life style. The whole discussion they are doing over there seems damaging on many levels to me. It’s bolstering up the expectations for the whole faithful community – and setting up the dichotomy for gay people, that they indeed can find the right opposite gender partner, if they desire the celestial kingdom. SSA is seen as a sort of temporal ‘disease’ for this earthly existence only – a very harmful way of viewing sexual identity in my opinion.
So this kind of discussion is SUPER important, to combat those unhealthy expectations that our community is so immersed in.
Here is a list of really disturbing podcasts over at the FairCast:
https://www.fairblog.org/2011/12/29/fair-examination-5-marriage-to-a-man-with-same-sex-attraction-joshua-alyssa-johanson/
https://www.fairblog.org/2011/12/29/fair-examination-5b-marriage-to-a-man-with-same-sex-attraction-joshua-alyssa-johanson/
https://www.fairblog.org/2011/12/29/fair-examination-5c-marriage-to-a-man-with-same-sex-attraction-joshua-alyssa-johanson/
https://www.fairblog.org/2012/01/04/fair-examination-6-overcoming-same-sex-attraction-blake-smith/
https://www.fairblog.org/2012/01/11/fair-examination-7-therapy-and-same-sex-attraction-david-matheson/
https://www.fairblog.org/2012/06/30/mormon-fair-cast-94-gay-mormon-finds-happiness-in-churchs-teachings/
Anyway, thanx John and Eldon, this is a super important message, which needs to be heard in the mormon community!!
Aside from the cultural issues, what do you think the church and cultural response to the Weeds marriage should be? They have decided to take a certain course of action. The church does not encourage this course of action–it is discouraged in the handbook. But the Weeds did this and so what are we all to do?
“What are we all to do?”
Learn to live and let live.
Since when is this topic discussed in Relief Society? :)
This was such a good conversation. Even beyond the issue of sexual orientation and mixed-orientation marriages, the discussion about human relationships in general–and about the marriage relationship in particular–was well worth listening to. Eldon, I’m so glad you were able to find and create such a beautiful marriage relationship, and sorry you had to lose it. It is a bittersweet story that transcends labels and issues. It’s a human story. Thank you for sharing.
I appreciate your thoughtful words, Paul; it’s validating and beautiful to be referred to as a human story.
Eldon, I was at your mission homecoming with Rhenon Williams. I remember you. Small world. Thanks for sharing your story!
I went into this quite skeptical after the whole Josh Weed and Ty Mansfield stories, but was pleasantly surprised at Eldon’s honesty and ability to articulate the difference between his marriage and the expectations that should be set for anyone else. His analogy of “pushing the button” was apt. I’ve previously used the analogy of going over Niagara Falls. Yes, people have survived it, but because of the bruising and broken bones or possible death that results from such a dangerous act you’d have to be insane to recommend it to someone.
I’m one of those who believes it to be wrong even if the woman knows and agrees to it.
I also hope that pointing out the following isn’t being crass or dismissive of Eldon’s marriage because I certainly believe in his sincerity, but the one thing that makes ANYONE’s marriage successful is that someone dies during it. I was married for 11 years. If by year 10 one of us had died, it could have been either one of us sitting down there praising the strength and success of our marriage…sexually, emotionally, etc.. But because we didn’t make it to year 12 before anyone’s death our marriage is deemed a failure. I’m not saying there’s any fortune in death. I’m just saying that it places a punctuation mark on that marriage which the rest of us who had marriages which lasted even LONGER don’t have. Of course, living is better and I’m not making light of Heather’s death.
I don’t know if you talk much about the kids in parts 3 or 4 but the tragedy of losing Mom must be truly devastating to them. I’m grateful that my kids still have their Mom. I just hate that our 11 years together is always seen as a failure by us, and others when they were good, happy productive years that produced 4 wonderful children. No one seems to conceptualize that a “successful” partnership can end.
Hi dadsprimalscream, I think I have read (and enjoyed) some of your posts in other places. I wanted to reply to say a couple things…
First, I find your analogy of going over Niagara Falls to be much more elegant and fitting for what I was trying to say. Thanks for sharing it.
And second, I’d like to express my amen to your sentiments. Death did not make my marriage a success, my relationship made my marriage a success. I think, if I understand you right, we feel commonly about this being a destructive and dismissive sentiment, to call all divorces failed marriages, and all marriages that stay “intact” until someone dies, a success. I’ve often wondered about old couples (or young) who can’t seem to stand each other; what kind of magic do they think is going to happen when their eternal marriage shows up in the Celestial Kingdom, that’s going to make it any different than it is in this life?! From what you’ve written, it sounds like you have my applause (for whatever it’s worth) for your successful marriage that also came to a rather successful and best-for-all conclusion.
Thanks for your thoughts and kindness.
Eldon
Whew! Yes, that exactly what I meant and I’m relieved and impressed that you didn’t take offense to anything I said but were able to get it. Thanks for your kind reply. I wish you and your kids only the best.
Looking forward to Pt 3 & 4
Throughly engaged. So honest and raw and beautiful.
A few “amens”:
1) It is horrific to expect people to be alone in life. (Yes, I agree! We should never request that!)
2) It disturbs me that funerals should be missionary meeting. My aunt at her father’s funeral “preached the gospel” and I was so confused why she keep boasting about that to everyone afterwards. Big thumbs down to that. I am so sad how they treated you regarding the funeral plans.
I was really touched by the amount of love that was expressed about your relationship. I felt through the whole interview how much respect and emotional connection you two had together. As a therapist myself I realize everyday what a gift very few people get in life with this kind of love.
I had to fast forward through the Part 4 but am so curious if you are currently in a relationship and how you are experiencing that process and redefining your family as a gay man.
Also wondering how your children are dealing with their grief too and how it has affected them spiritually also.
Aimee, who doesn’t love getting an “amen”?!
I purposefully prepared my thoughts on the funeral experience because I actually hope that on a wishful large scale, perhaps some educated agitation on the part of members could help change policy that is hurtful regarding the handbook of instructions on funerals. And, more realistically, in lieu of that, perhaps a leader or future leader might possibly hear and have more compassion because of it.
And, I’m thankful for your words of validation about the love in my relationship – they are well received.
As for the present, I am not in any relationship, and do not foresee one in the immediate future. My process through grief may be slow, but it is deliberate, and I think the seeds of preparation for a future relationship have been sewn and now need time to be nurtured.
As for my children, which you kindly asked about, they have struggled in very understandable and predictable ways. They still do. I realized only after the conclusion of the whole interview that I hadn’t actually explained my present relationship with the church (though it’s easily implied). Our family does not attend, and will not be doing so at any time int he future. Spiritually speaking, that means I have had to bring more broad discussions and purposeful thought to my efforts to give my children a sense of the wonder of the world and nebulous but beautiful realms of spirituality. It’s tough without the former solid structure of the church, but I’m good with it. Also, my children were 5, 3, and 1 when Heather died, so their spiritual sense wasn’t founded in religion yet, anyway.
Thanks for your thoughts, I’m honored you listened to my story. It’s a little surreal to think of other people just hearing my own story.
Eldon
Just another question for you about that, how did Heather feel about the church before she died? Were you both active throughout your married life or did you go through an evolution spiritually together? Did you go through changes separately? It is hard for new members to become socially converted a lot of times to this church that is so woven through every aspect of our lives – and I think it is even harder for those who have a “crisis of faith” for lack of a better term to socially separate themselves from the church especially when they come from pioneer stock like we do and want to keep a relationship with family. I loved hearing your story and I agree with you wholeheartedly. Love and hugs to you and your sweet children.
Jennie
Am I missing something – I can’t find part 3&4 and Aimee is referencing part4.
Coming soon!
Thank you, thank you, thank you. I can’t thank you enough. I have lived 50 years as a closeted gay in a mixed-orientation marriage. Eldon, the depression you went through and described here seems to be my lot in life, as my marriage doesn’t even begin to approach what appears to be your wonderful relationship with Heather. Obviously, much of that problem rests with me keeping my gayness closeted, but I’m glad you’re discussing Mormon expectations. I posted at Josh and Lolly’s website just shortly after they “came out”, and my follow-up comments got lost in the viral vacuum that happened on their website, but writing answers to someone’s questions there has certainly helped me think more about being a gay grandfather now. I’ve gone through a lifetime of experiences. I married because of expectations (Mormon through and through) but also because I love children and wanted my own! I wanted to be the best father in the world. Now I have 2 married daughters, 1 married son, (and one more song in high school still) and 2 wonderful grandchildren, and REGRETS about it all. 50 years, I figured my gayness would have subsided; I expected it to subside and it never has.
Eldon & John, thank you again and again for doing this interview. Eldon, I sense that you are really a most remarkable father to your children! I empathize with you and your children in your losing Heather and I hope for you all the best now.
Joseph,
Thank YOU for your encouraging words and for believing the best of me. I talked very little about my children in the brunt of the interview, but I certainly do try my very best to be the very most for them as their father and as the only parent they have now. I, like you, also wanted children; I was, as John says, lucky to have had an angel to have and raise them with while she was here.
Also, I don’t have any sense of you reaching for any kind of pity by sharing your honest story, but it DID bring me to sadness. I cannot abide needless suffering brought about by ignorance and intolerance on the part of people. Especially since I believe so strongly in our ability to lift and embrace one another as the greatest power on earth. I wish you weren’t hurting, and I wish the life regrets you had were different. And from a more realistic in-the-now position, I hope there may be some way somehow to escape the expectations that bind you, and know which ones are best to keep or throw away. I don’t know – it’s just hard. I’m sorry. Thanks again for your kind words!
Thanks Eldon. Amazing presentation. I just want to add a couple of points of information that I think you could have included in your list. Internalized homophobia really is another factor that makes it impossible for young mormons to assess honestly their relationships and will make them want to see themselves as more bisexual than they actually are…thus fooling themselves into thinking that they can make it work. It is kind of in the same bag that you mentioned that it is impossible for young mormons to actually know what their sexual needs are. (Your discussion about top/bottom was interesting, and obviously needs to have the caveat stated to, since homophobia has a big role in how a young inexperienced gay person might see themselves) (another caveat though…..there probably exists lots of Kinsey 5s and 6s who are also tops so they still couldn’t get sexual satisfaction in a heterosexual relationship even though they like to penetrate) (another caveat about roles…top/bottom/versatile also are very fluid and evolve as a person matures and explores). These are points of information more than anything, because I really appreciate your ability to really verbalize the dangers of entering this kind of marriage. The situation is difficult, because it is obvious that some marriages can work. I know people who grew old together in mixed-orientation marriages, and don’t regret it, nor do the children and grand-children they wouldn’t have had. The problem is the message that goes to young people who are making these decisions. The homophobia is so intense in mormon society that young gay men grab on to whatever straw they can find. Your example of the button was perfect.
Daniel, I’d like to give you a hearty amen.
Internalized homophobia seriously plays a part in the movements and decisions I made, and probably a part in almost every gay man’s life. Sadly so. Also, I’d like to completely amen your additionally listed caveats regarding sexuality. It’s such a greater and more complex – even rich – conversation that could and really should be had. To be fair, I discussed with John before hand wanting to talk about the sex part of being homosexual, but was personally trying to land inside a boundary that was helpfully educating to a Mormon Stories audience, and that pushed the envelope of understanding (stretched it, if you will) but that also didn’t become so explicit it turned off the potential growth people might get from letting themselves consider this information. Um, that seemed like a slightly convoluted way to say I tried to bring the topic to the table but not push it. But I’m very comfortable agreeing with all you’ve added here. Thanks for your thoughts, my new friend.
Eldon
John: I really appreciate the open forum and the excellent job you do interviewing your guests. I hope that you will interview Josh Weed in depth, so that we can learn more about this interesting perspective.
The thing that really strikes me about Eldon and Josh is that they made a choice to do what they did in spite of their sexual orientation. You seem to be very critical of Josh and Lollie, but less so of those who choose to act on their gay orientation. You have said that Josh and Lollie have made a dangerous choice–so are you saying that Josh and Lollie have made the wrong choice? Do you condemn that choice? I know others in Josh’s same situation, and even though they struggle, the benefits of a loving wife, children, and fellowship in their family, community, and profession, in their minds outweigh the benefits of a committed relationship with another male. I also have a very good mormon gay friend who married and had 3 children. He just divorced and now has a new gay partner–so obviously that model did not work for him. The question I have for you–is do you maintain that a gay man should never marry a woman? I know that you also do not believe that abstinence is a model that works–meaning that same sex marriage is the only acceptable solution to this issue. Why is not the answer that people can choose what they want to do and let consequence follow?
Matt – I FULLY support Josh and Lolly’s decision. My only point in mentioning them is to highlight that I (like Josh) feel like there is a danger in holding the Weeds up as examples to others. That’s the only concern I have about the Weeds. I fully support their decision. I just worry (again, as Josh does) how well intended parents of LGBT Mormons are using the Weeds’ story to pressure their gay and lesbian children to enter into mixed-orientation marriages. And they are. Believe me. They are.
But if individuals decide that they want to enter into mixed-orientation marriages…they have my full support and blessing (not that they want or need it). But I do want to do my part to make sure that they fully understand the divorce and quality of life risks before entering in. Children are often involved in marriages — so I believe that the stakes are high. To me, the quality of life and divorce risks found from our data are quite significant, and (honestly) unexpected for me. The data seem to indicate that MOM’s are very, very risky.
For the record, I am also a big fan of the law of chastity — with one exception. I believe that being legally married (in a same-sex relationship) is as legitimate as being legally married heterosexually. I think that we should encourage same-sex monogamy….and that this is best for most (if not all) people.
Thank you for this clarification. Church leaders should make it clear to parents and others that it is a clear violation of church policy to encourage such marriages. Therapists should also make this very clear to the families. I have 4 daughters and I would be very concerned if one of them were to marry a man who was pressured into such a marriage. Full disclosure and communication must occur. My friend’s wife suspected he was gay–but did not know for sure. This is wrong and it left a trail of tears and heartache. Another gay friend of mine married a beautiful girl. Before they had children, she became fully aware and they divorced. This man has since lived in a foreign country and is a faithful latter day saint. He is a wonderful embassador for the church and most do not know that he is gay. He has not had any sexual relations which is the minority even for LDS members. It has been a very hard burden for him.
A few questions:
Do you think the church should recognize same sex marriage?
Do you think that there is any chance that the church would ever recognize same sex marriage? (I do not)
What about same sex temple sealing?
Matt – Regarding your questions:
I wish that the church would recognize same-sex marriage at least as it relates to worthiness outside the temple (for callings, church participation, etc.). I doubt that gay or lesbian temple marriage would be a possible stretch for the church. But if two men or two women are willing to live the law of chastity inside a legal marriage — I feel like they should be allowed to serve actively in the church. But that’s just how I feel. I don’t like to ever say what the church should do, since they know more about what’s good for the church than I do.
I don’t know if they will ever recognize same-sex marriage, but my guess is that they will do so within 50 years — at least outside of the temple. My feeling is that once all U.S. 50 states have legalized SS-marriage, the church will have to accommodate (or risk severe social, financial, and political consequences)…and by then…they will have broad member support (with those who haven’t left the church by then over the issue, of course). Eventually, just like with polygamy and blacks/priesthood — I believe that the cost will be too high for them NOT to accommodate.
At least you are honest about the agenda–state sanctioned same sex marriage will result in the church being outside of the mainstream and will be forced into compliance with society. The blacks in the priesthood seems very different–the policy does not make sense and completely contradicts the constitution and most everyone’s definition of fairness and equal rights. President McKay almost got that one done. Polygamy is strange then and now and makes little sense. It was never accepted in society or even in the church. It was destined to fail. Marriage between a man and wife is very different because it has been accepted as the bedrock of society for thousands of years. The same sex marriage movement is only 10 to 20 years old. Aside from biblical scriptures that supposedly condemn homosexual relations, the bible is replete with references to a husband and wife cleaving unto one another and multiplying and replenishing each other. It hardly makes sense to substitute references to same sex marriage in our thought process.
Yes, it is a sad dilemma but same sex marriage just does not seem to “fit” with the other examples–just seems so different. There is no precedent for it in any Christian tradition that I am aware of.
Also, seems that we would need to allow sealings because the celestial kingdom requires it.
Your compassion is wonderful–I have gay friends and they need our compassion.
I really believe that same sex issues are a sign of the times–vexing issues for which none of us have easy answers and which will cause men’s hearts to fail.
I believe that there will be other similar and even greater trials of fire that will try our faith to the core in the last days.
Thanks for talking to me and keep up the good work. My faith has been strengthened immensely by this website.
One other thing, I firmly believe that John and Brooke McClay made a tragic mistake–just wish they had stuck in the faith for a few years.
Also, I am glad you did not post Tom Philips here. I found it elsewhere and I feel that he was way over the top in his hateful words about Elder Holland. He is probably the most bitter person I have ever heard.
You know it’s interesting. You say that some people “the benefits of a loving wife, children, and fellowship in their family, community, and profession, in their minds outweighs the benefits of a committed relationship with another male.”
I’m gay myself, and do you want to know what I see as the “benefits” of a same sex relationship? a loving spouse, children, and fellowship in a family, community, and profession. It may not be achieved in the “traditional” way in which straight couples acquire such things, but it still exists for gay couples. Being so young, I recognize I have a lot of opportunities that Eldon and Josh didn’t have. But I can’t help but wonder… if things had been different, if society and the church and been more accepting and inclusive, if they would have still made the same choices that they did.
Epic, indeed! Thank you so much Eldon and John, for sharing the Kartchners’ story. I can’t wait for parts 3 and 4.
In reference to John and Eldon’s discussion of the Kinsey scale and the fact that women seem to have a more fluid sexuality, I believe that to be much more a function of current society rather then biology. Like Eldon, I believe men’s sexuality is probably just as “fluid” but that variation can’t be as comfortably expressed or even personally recognized in our current social structure.
Why is it that women can more easily accept a flexible sexuality and men cannot?
From a very young age, girls are encouraged to form deeply intimate relationships with other girls – BFFs! Guys have BFFs too of course, but the addition of “Bromance” to the lexicon is cultural fun poking (and gate keeping?) at men who are perceived to be a little *too* involved with a special friend. There is not corresponding shame for extremely close female friends.
In addition, it’s socially acceptable for women to unabashedly touch and soothe each other. We do each other’s hair and nails, we share clothing, we dance together, we hug, we hold each other when we cry, etc. Men are never taught to touch each other in those intimate ways.
Women have also been objectified for centuries, which allows women and men equally to separate the “object” from the person and gaze upon and judge a female’s physical attributes without shame. Even my 7 year old daughter can look at a magazine and identify the “pretty” models. In contrast, it would not be socially acceptable nor expected for my sons to flip through a Sports Illustrated and pick out the attractive male athletes.
So to pick on John (because I know he can handle it.. hah!), he considers himself a Kinsey 0. However I posit that that might be more a function of the social structure he was born into as an American male in the 20/21st century rather then a reflection of his biological makeup.
In contrast, while I’m a hetero female who has only been involved in hetero relationships, I feel like I *could* have intimate and/or romantic feelings towards a women given the right circumstances. If we lived in a backwards world, I could probably love and marry a woman if that was expected of me (despite that pesky opposite sex attraction that I would most definitely struggle with. heh).
Is that because I’m a Kinsey 3 or 4, a typically “fluid” women, or is it simply because I’ve had close girlfriends my entire life, was socialized to view women’s bodies and sexy and beautiful, am touched lovingly by other women often, and have never been shamed for hugging my bff or dancing with other girls?
If men were raised and socialized like women, wouldn’t more of us readily identify as Kinsey 3’s?
Forgot to add.. I had a good laugh when John pressed Eldon about whether those co-eds he attempted to date were truly attracted to him. Um.. YEAH! Eldon is hottie!!! ;)
The hottest and best looking girl (Toni) in my senior class was untouchable to us hetero slobs. However, my gay friend was her best friend and they spent lots of time together. One day my friend said that he made out with Toni for 3 hours “just to see what it is was like”. My buddies and I were very jealous!
This is a fantastic interview. Eldon, your story is powerful and voices like yours are much needed.
Something that came to mind for me when you were discussing the fact that there is nothing doctrinally speaking that guarantees that righteousness or checking everything off the spiritual To Do list will change orientation or magically make the One Person who can make a mixed orientation marriage work for you appear. “If you wait righteously for long enough you will be given your one special person,” I believe the quote was.
It’s interesting to me because this sort of counsel is given to those wanting heterosexual marriages but have not had the opportunity. Young women particularly are often counseled that if they are righteous, God will not leave them lonely (although they may have to wait until the next life, and various other caveats). I wonder if this mentality towards heterosexual marriage affects the tone towards homosexuality and deciding whether to enter into a MOM. The rhetoric being that righteousness is rewarded so if you are righteous enough, you will find the one person (gay or straight) who can make you happy.
I’ve seen how this damages women and encourages them into unsafe dating or unstable marriages, but your story really helped broaden my view about how such blanket statements can be harmful.
Thanks for sharing your story.
C,
I love this added perspective – thank you! The idea that we’re told to wait it out until the next life certainly IS preached to the single women. In my defense – if that’s what it is – I don’t feel awry saying that the church clearly and loudly taught me the principles that add up to “being righteous will get you what you want”. I realize that an apologist could point out that no prophet has ever directly said gay people should stay church faithful and will, as a result, be changed; not that I know of anyway. But I think the church and it’s gospel are culpable for the combination of messages it gives. Saying it isn’t is like trying to claim responsibility for vinegar in the room, and for baking soda in the room, but then saying the resulting children’s-science-fair lava explosion isn’t on your shoulders. We shouldn’t imply to anyone, gay or straight, that staying alone is a good idea; particularly since (I maintain) there is absolutely no good reason to live this life suffering out of the idea that the unknown next will be better for it. Thanks for the thoughts!
Eldon
Love your guts, Eldon.
–Jill Jill Jillerson
After watching part one and two I just had to say, thank you. Thank you, THANK YOU! for your story, for your honesty, and for your life. I am a Mormon feminist, in a mixed orientation marriage, in the middle of a huge faith transition that is scaring my darling husband to death. Recently I have been led to such wonderful resources as “The Book of Mormon Girl” which led me to “Mormon Stories” and your interview. Now for the first time in my life I am starting to feel like I’m not completely alone. So much of what you shared was relevant to my experience. If I started making a list this comment would be never ending. So I will simply let you know that you have my deep and sincere gratitude. Thank you.
I really appreciated this interview, because as a Mormon I want to always be present an compassionate in my relationships. Most of my friends and siblings are not Mormon. I find it so imperative to break away from some of the cultural “language” that although well intended at times can be hurtful. I read this article on grief an I just wanted to relate it, by Robert Karen phd..”mourning is about processing the hurt, about expanding the self, about growing and moving on- without having been crippled or diminished by the loss. Mourning is complicated. It takes time. It takes creativity. Anger and depression may be part of the mix, but ultimately, mourning is completed under auspices of love…”
Eldon, I wish you peace and happiness in the future, and thank you for sharing your heart.
Hugs!
Thank you Eldon for sharing your story with grace and honesty. My ultimate frustration with this interview is that you are gay. You are also obviously incredibly intelligent, kind, eloquent, and so GORGEOUS!!! I wish you nothing but the best in every aspect of your life. And PLEASE don’t ever cut that beautiful body again. ~ Active straight Mormon Woman in Utah
In the beginning(ish) of Part 2, Eldon and John discuss the Kinsey Scale. Eldon mentions that there are other lesser-known sexuality test/scales out there. Which? Where?