Introduction and Guest Background

Guest [00:00:00] Thank you for tuning in again to Mormon Stories Podcast. Mormon Stories depends entirely upon voluntary contributions from you, its listeners. To support Mormon Stories. Please visit us today@mormonstories.org nearer my God

Guest 2 [00:00:16] to thee, Nearer to thee Even though it be a cross that resent me still all my songs shall be Nearer my go to thee Nearer my go to thee Nearer to thee. Though like the wanderer the sun gone down darkness.

Guest [00:01:08] Thanks again for tuning in to Mormon Stories Podcast. You are listening to Part three of a multi part series on women in the LDS Church. In Part one of this series we provided a modest introduction to the issues surrounding women in the LDS Church and in part two, a brief exploration of feminism in 19th and 20th century America. Today it is time to hear from one of the foremost voices on women's issues within Mormonism, Dr. Claudia L. Bushman. Dr. Bushman is a historian by training and has taught at Columbia University for many years. She is the author of several books and articles including Mormon Sisters, Women of Early Utah, Mormon Domestic life in the 1870s, Pandemonium or Acadia and two books which she co authored with her husband, Dr. Richard Bushman, those being Mormons in America and Building the A History of Mormons in America. Perhaps most significantly, Dr. Bushman is one of the founders of Exponent 2, a Boston based magazine and now blog focused on feminism and women's issues within Mormonism. She is also one of the early contributors to Dialogue, a journal of Mormon thought regarding Mormon women's issues. Claudia and Richard are also the proud parents of four sons and two daughters. In this interview with Dr. Bushman, we learn what she means when she describes herself as a Mormon feminist. She also recounts her involvement in the formation of Exponent 2 as well as in the broader area of women's studies in the LDS church. To conclude, Dr. Bushman discusses her views on the critical role of women in the Church today and how we might work better to accommodate and even better utilize women within the LDS church in the 21st century. I would also like to express my deep gratitude to Melissa Wei Tsing Inouye, who conducted this interview for Mormon Stories podcast. Melissa is completing her PhD at Harvard University and specializes in the history of China's Christian communities. And now, without any further ado, Dr. Claudia L. Bushman's story and your story today on Mormon stories.

Guest 2 [00:03:34] Nearer my God to thee, Nearer to thee.

Melissa Inouye [00:03:41] This is Melissa Inouye with Claudia Bushman. Claudia, why don't you introduce yourself and then give a little a few details about your background and then we'll go on from There.

Claudia Bushman [00:03:51] This is Claudia Bushman. I was born in Oakland, California, many years ago. I consider myself a woman of a certain age. My parents were both members of the church. Their families had been converted. Their parents were converted, and some of them had miraculous experiences. But for financial reasons, mostly both my parents and their families moved to California, the Golden State, the greatest state of all, which is also 17 hours away from Salt Lake City, which is a significant thing about being a Mormon in California. And my father was always the bishop. When I was born, he was the bishop, then he was the stake president, then he was patriarch and a sealer in the temple. So he was a rock hard, solid member of the church, but not a pious man. And my mother is similar in that and that she was a great believer and a great church worker, but she just could not bear sentimentalism of any kind. And then we had in our family four daughters. And I'm sure that that was an important part of my growing up. I'm sure that if we'd had a brother, we would have had to lavish on him all the powers and finances available in the family. But as it was, the girls just shared what there was. We did fine. So I'm saying these things because that really does describe where I come from, that I'm a very good member of the Church, I think, in that I'm faithful, that I'm obedient, that I do all these things, that I obey such things as one is supposed to do. But I also am not pious. I'm not sentimental. I think for myself in lots of ways. And I consider myself a feminist. But what I mean by being a feminist is that I think all the talents and abilities of women should be developed for the benefit of themselves, their families and the community. That's my definition of feminism, and I think most people would agree with it. Now, another thing that made a difference was I went to a girls college. That was kind of accidental, but it did happen. So I went to Wellesley College, many ways, many miles away from where I lived. I felt I could not go to a school if there wasn't an ocean nearby. And I'd grown up in San Francisco, I could see the ocean out my window. And I decided that Wellesley College looked on the map pretty close to the ocean, which of course it's not, but that's where I went and had a very interesting and useful education there. Now, what else would you like to know?

Melissa Inouye [00:06:25] Maybe you can continue on with your life sketch and feel free to at the points where it intersects with Mormon women's History or the feminist movement. Feel free to give more details. Right.

Claudia Bushman [00:06:39] As I said, because I went to this girls college, I had a little more interest in women than I would have had if I stayed home in California. We were not interested in the past. We were not interested in. In women's things. We were interested in the up to date, the fashionable, the new. But going to school in Massachusetts really did influence me in lots of ways. And because going to Wellesley College, which is wonderful on the most beautiful campus in the world, probably it's very much like going to sea in a telephone booth. You can spend your whole life there and never get off campus. And it became very important me to get to church on Sundays and to meet with Mormon friends. And I'm sure that I'm a better member of the church for having gone far away to school, things of that sort. And I also, I majored in English literature, which because I just loved it so much more than other things that were available. Probably I wouldn't do that if I were doing it again. I do economics or science or something like that. That was a little harder. But I still think that history and literature is the greatest education of all. But I really saw no future for myself outside of college. I didn't think anyone would ever let me into graduate school. My grades were not all A's. I didn't think that anyone would ever hire me. How could. Why would they? And so I just didn't look beyond college. And besides, I was very interested in my social life. And after my junior year, actually I was married to Richard L. Bushman, who was a great catch. He was a great catch then, he's a great catch now. And there were a number of other girls from Utah that were quite interested in him and could not understand what he saw in this strange girl from California. But we were married and. And he began graduate school. I began my final year at Wellesley. My parents would have been perfectly happy if I had just dropped out of school, but always felt that if you started something, you ought to finish it. So I wanted to finish up and I did so without any great thrill about being in school. I had to commute. They took away my scholarship because they said I would no longer be contributing to the community, which was just one of those interesting discriminatory things that was done in those days. And so we continued in school for that first year. Then I graduated in maternity clothes. And actually that's one of the more significant things about my story, is the way motherhood and education have entwined. So I graduated Expecting my first child, who was born that next October. I'm not going to give you all the details of this other business, but I had only been out of school a short while when I just was hungry to get back, just hungry to get back. And started taking classes whenever I had the chance. And eventually, when Richard had his first job at Brigham Young University, I was able to go back and work on my master's degree. And I began my master's degree with two children and finished with three. And later on, I began my doctorate with five children and finished with six. That's my best claim to fame. And along the way, I became very interested in women's lives. Over the years. When I started my doctoral work, I decided that I would work on what I then called female studies, using my own life. And as kind of an example, as kind of a touchstone, I would read about women of the past and see how things had changed and how they had compared. So you see, all along I was working toward being a feminist, and it's been a great interest ever since. That's super.

Founding Exponent II and Women's Voices

Melissa Inouye [00:10:39] At what point did you and others in Boston found the woman's exponent or exponent too?

Claudia Bushman [00:10:45] Well, that's quite a long and complex story, which I will try and reduce. But the first time we were in Boston for a long time, and then we went to byu. We were there for three years. We went to Providence for two years. We were back at BYU for three years. And then Richard won a big prize, the Bancroft Prize, for the best history book of the year, American history book of the year. And at that point, we were facing a sabbatical. And so we went back to Boston for a sabbatical. That year, Boston University was in one of its expansive modes, and they wanted to start a new American studies program. And they were very seriously trying to recruit Richard to come. And he felt that we really couldn't go because he owed BYU for the sabbatical. They were paying money for him to be at the center at Harvard. But more and more, More and more argumentation or persuasion from the Boston University finally persuaded him that he should take that job. And I was very happy about it because it would give me a chance, chance to go on in school. I hadn't been able to do that at BYU because they didn't have anything after what I had taken. So we did begin in Boston that next year. And this is about 69, something like that. 69, 70. And one of the things that happened fairly soon was that Laurel Ulrich said, why don't we get together and talk about our lives as Mormon women. Ann listed about a dozen of us to come over to her house. Little children running all around, Snacks, crackers, Cheerios, all this business, and yet all these women sitting there talking seriously about their lives. And we did that for quite a while. And it was very exhilarating because we did take Mormon women's lives lives seriously, which none of us had ever done before, even though the issues we talked about were things like housework. Should you take a church job if it was offered to you? I mean, were you really required to do that? And what about birth control, which was. The church was not at all in favor of and did speak out against. And so those were some of our biggest issues. Housekeeping was a very big issue for us. So after about, I don't know, so many months of this, I said, why don't we do some projects? Why do we always just have to get mad at each other and argue, let's do something that we can have to show for our efforts? And so at that point, Jean England came to visit us, and I asked him if we could do an issue of Dialogue, a women's issue, an issue by the silent majority, which was a phrase in some use at the time. And he said, sure. So we did. That was the pink issue of Dialogue, which we put together, which was a great experience. And after we did this, and none of us in this group had really even had any experience with. We didn't work on high school yearbooks. We weren't writers. We weren't the kids that had been writing poetry since we. We were six. There was one Stephanie Smith Goodson, who had been a reporter briefly, and she wanted to be in charge of some of these projects, but she was president of the Relief Society, and the bishop wouldn't release her. She felt she couldn't do both. So we did that for a while, and then we started doing projects that had to do with everybody's skills. We had some wonderful cooks. So special. We did wonderful dinners. We had friends that had friends. So we invited in important people. We had the Exponent day lecture and dinner. All along the way, we just met with such tremendous support. We just felt so smart. We felt so invincible, so successful. And it was just a glorious moment. And so one time I went home and said to my husband, well, we've done everything we can think of. What should we do now? He said, well, why don't you start a newspaper? So I went back and said that Richard thinks we should start a newspaper. Great idea. Let's start a newspaper. And so we decided we would start a newspaper. And it was at this point that Stephanie, who would have been the editor, decided she couldn't do it. So Carol Sheldon said to me, well, you'll just have to be the editor. And I was by this time working on my doctorate. And I said, can't we. And oh, and one of the things we had done had been a lecture series which we called Roots and Fruits of Mormon Women. Roots and Fruits. I like it so much better than Roots and Wings. Roots and Fruits. And so at this point, I was trying to turn this into a book that did become Mormon Sisters. I said, can't we wait until this book is done? She said, no, we have to begin right now. And so we did. And Carol had been one of the best advocates for this whole operation. She had, I think at this point, two little boys, maybe three by this time, and she had just been exhausted with her life. She just could hardly move and so much to do. And when she got involved in some of these things, suddenly she was totally enlivened. She could do everything, all that, all the children, all this exponent stuff as well. And it really was a rebirth for all of us. It was a great, great period. It was the time of. What did we call those groups? Consciousness raising groups for the rest of the nation. And we were right there. We had our own consciousness raising group and I think we were as productive as any that ever was. I mean, we really have things to show for those days. It's a good time.

Melissa Inouye [00:16:48] In what year did you begin Exponent two?

Claudia Bushman [00:16:51] Oh, I always have terrible times with the years. It's in the 70s, in the 70s, and it's still alive today, which is a marvel. Which is just a marvel. And it shows the dedication and the skills and talents of Mormon women because I think it's as clear and honest a voice as where Mormon women have been during these almost. It's been 40 years anyway since it started. All these 40 years. I mean, we have. Laurel always said it was like a long letter from a dear friend, because all the issues were issues that other people were concerned with. People from the group were writing all the time. It was a very good time. Anyway.

Melissa Inouye [00:17:38] That's great.

Claudia Bushman [00:17:39] Carries on.

Feminism, ERA, and LDS Women's History

Melissa Inouye [00:17:40] So now that we've gotten to the 70s, were you personally involved with the feminist movement that took place during the 70s, such as the era in 1972?

Claudia Bushman [00:17:51] I was, of course, far away from Utah, so I was not involved with those things. I do remember that when I was in Belmont, Mass, Massachusetts, which is where we lived. A friend of mine asked if I would be willing to carry an ERA sign in front of the library, our local library, because it was an issue people were talking about. I said absolutely. And so I did go up and down and encourage people to support the ERA and so on. I carried a nice little card in my purse that had the ERA and showed it to people and read it to them from time to time. When the church came out against was a great surprise to me. It was a great surprise because by then we had also discovered the Woman's Exponent. And we saw how clearly the women in the past had been doing things very differently than we were doing them in the present. That they had their own newspaper, the women's exposure, that they commingled, the Relief Society and the suffrage operation, all those things that the priesthood of the church had encouraged this. So we just thought it was right along in our tradition. So it was a big surprise to me. And of course, it only came about very gradually, as you know, from studying this, which I'm sure you have, wasn't until the 11th hour that the church being did oppose the ERA. And I was just very surprised. I was very surprised and saddened because you always feel bad when you feel you're flying free in some direction. And then here comes some cold water to make some metaphor.

Melissa Inouye [00:19:40] So what else should we talk about?

Claudia Bushman [00:19:45] One other thing where I was involved in the era, which was quite interesting to me, was when, by then I had moved down to Delaware. I did leave Boston after a while, moved to Delaware, and we were having our Stake Conference, and Boyd Packer was our speaker, but he kept excusing himself because there were calls from Salt Lake and from Washington because Sonia Johnson's trial was going on. That was quite an interesting moment. You mentioned before, Melissa, how I said that you really should choose your battles in this whole business. It's just a great sorrow to me that Sonia Johnson and others who have followed after her have been punished for doing these things which are logical extensions of their lives as Mormon women, as their interest in the community and others. So I'm just glad that I was not in Utah at the time. I did have one experience that was similar in a way, which was that when we were doing Exponent 2, I sent contact to all the wives of the general authorities in the church office building, received several irate calls from people in the office. Never, never do that again. And here we had been sure that they would be interested in this. They would like to know what was

Melissa Inouye [00:21:16] going on why didn't they like the exponent, too?

Claudia Bushman [00:21:20] Because it didn't originate in Salt Lake. Because it was grassroots efforts. And because grassroots efforts are always suspect. And because. Not because of what it was, but because of what they feared it might become. That's always the argument. And my husband was stake president in Boston at this time. We had a visiting authority who came and stayed with us, and he told me I really had to get out of it, that it was that I should close it down, that it would turn into something very serious and difficult, and it would just not. And it would. I think he said that it would. Something like it would color our lives in the eyes of the church so that it would appear on our records and would be bad. So at that point, I said, okay, I will. And so I resigned. And I said to the group, we had a meeting right about then, and I said, this is what the church wants us to do. And they said, well, we just can't do that. And so we all wrote. Or I didn't, because I'd already made my statement, taken my position. And a number of them wrote long letters to the general authorities that said how much this experience had meant for them to be really running something which they couldn't generally do otherwise, and how enlivening and helpful as church members this has been for them. So we sent all these into the brethren, and he gave them to another brother, whom I will also not identify. And he said, you should read these letters. I think we owe them an answer. And so the second brother came out from Salt Lake and did meet with us and talk about it. And they said, we can't really tell you to close this down. We can make you do it. It's up to you. But it isn't suitable for the stake president's wife. And I moved soon after that, so it was all right. But it was one of those very painful moments where you think, do you continue faithful or do you do what you're told? I mean, that's the same thing. Or do you go your own way? And I decided I really. It would have just killed my parents if I was excommunicated. It would have been unfair to my children and my husband. And so. And I guess for me, it was probably the right decision anyway. So, anyway, then I moved on from that particular position. But that's been my kind of interesting dance with women's rights and inside the church. I think the church is a very conservative organization. We know it is. And it's very hard for people to accept new ideas. But as you read church history, you see we've got a long, long story of accommodation to ideas that seem shocking at the moment. We have altered our doctrine and our plans. It just takes a long time for the church to catch up with some things. Not saying that there aren't some terrible bad things that they have opposed that we should never do anyway. I have just watched one thing after another become acceptable. And so it tells me that what do you really want to do? If you want to continue active on the the scene, you really have to make decisions that keep you in harmony with church leaders. And I certainly wouldn't do it differently now because I've been able to do a lot of things that I really have enjoyed that have been valuable and I just couldn't have done if I'd fought one of these things to the end. Ask another question. Where are we going now?

Challenges and Future of LDS Women

Melissa Inouye [00:25:44] Well, what do you see as some of the. You led a seminar on 20th century Mormon women's history a few years back. Could you talk about the major discussions that came out of that and what you see as some of the major issues facing Mormon women today?

Claudia Bushman [00:26:00] Well, I do think there are a number of very specific and interesting Mormon women's issues you should talk on. What came out of the seminar, I can't ever remember for sure, but I think everyone did broaden their views to some extent. I think that was true. What do I think are the big issues today? Well, they'll be very specific because I think of my own congregation and situation. I think there is no group in the church that is worse treated than young mothers. It just shocks and horrifies me how little attention is paid to them and their needs. For instance, all these new chapels without places for the mothers and children to go. Our restrooms in New York City are just. You just really cannot. They just were never planned with mothers and children in mind. There's not space for them to do the things that need to be done. There's no place for strollers to be parked and strollers is. They are the vehicles of choice in New York City for all these families. And what is more, nobody asks the young mothers when they want to have their meetings. They are still expected to turn up at an unreasonable hour and sit with these children for three hours. And if their children make any noise, they receive many dirty looks and so on. I just think that if we had women in the planning stages, think things would be different and they should be different. The young men in our church would never put up with what the young Women put up with. I think that is true. You have an unusual husband, so maybe your situation is different. But when they put a new chapel on top of our building in New York, they really did me the great favor of saying, you may look at these plans and make any suggestions. Well, I looked at them in two minutes. I said, these halls are not wide enough. We have too many people. We need more space outside the chapel itself. And what is this bathroom doing? Going upstairs? There's no way we can deal with that now, Sister. We have no plans to ever put families in this ward. This is for singles. But of course, as soon as it was open, without making any changes to those situations, there were families meeting there and a difficult circumstance. So I could go on and on. But I just feel that I would like to say that young women in the church who are doing supposedly what the church tells them to do, which is multiply and replenish, are not given great consideration. That's fine. Another item that I'm concerned, Concerned about these days is the women of a certain age, which I introduced myself as. I think here we have all this power, all this ability, all this talent and experience. And yet the older women in the church are largely marginalized. I don't feel bad about this. In some ways, young women need those jobs. They need to be present in the primary. They need to be present to relieve society. And there just are not enough jobs to. To go around these days. But we have all this talent that must be utilized. We started having a group in our stake where we invite people of a certain age and some. A few youngers that have begged to be part of it. And we have a monthly luncheon and we talk about issues and we have one of us give sort of a little presentation. But I see it could be. Go a lot farther, and I would like it to. One of the directions in which we should be going is public relations. There is endless work to be done with public relations in the church. And these older women who sometimes have time to go visit the community boards, sit on the community boards, run for office, get to know the politicians who are around, set up organizations and programs with other churches. We could do wonderful things, not to mention the possibilities of humanitarian service. Any group of 10 or 12 women could have a lot of fun doing a big project that would provide some useful materials and things for women in another country. Or I would really like to see. I live in Provo during the summer. I would like to see some serious effort made to unite our community, which is extremely polarized. It seems to me, by race, by experience and by education, there's endless work to be done. So I'd like to see the older women and their talents used. Well, the stake president tells me these women, it's not that these women haven't been given a chance to have important jobs, they just refuse them. I said, what do they refuse? Time in the nursery, time on the enrichment committee, things like that. I mean, I'm not going to work in the nursery anymore. I'm not doing any more kitchen jobs. I'm not going to be in charge of mutual at the primary, then all those things, I want to do something else. So we have to open up in new directions rather than the directions we're going. And one of the areas that I would like to see opening up in is that I'd like to see the Relief Society divided by age group, the way the priesthood is, because I particularly live in a ward now that is almost. Well, I'd say probably 70% law students and their wives, all very young women, they have a very different point of view. And we try. And older ladies, we try and sit there and not say anything that upset people giving the lessons and so on, but we could have very good discussions among ourselves that would be beneficial. So those are two of the areas. The public relations one, as I mentioned, I think that is very important. And the whole idea of us looking outside instead of looking inside, we just need new ways to talk about the church. And I think we need to practice doing those talkings. For instance, people are always asking me, what did I think of this new TV program on the Mormons, which I saw and I enjoyed very much. And I said I thought it was wonderful. It was excellent tv, very entertaining, very interesting, excellent talking heads saying excellent things. And I go on and say a few mothers, other things, and how wonderful it is that somebody is paying that much attention to us and really trying to be fair. But then I say, of course, that's not the way the members perceive the church. And I think you have to take three issues, say, oh, no, what our communities, maybe our young families, maybe our lay leaders, leadership, three issues and talk about some of them. And I think that's a good way to talk about the church. We can't just always say when somebody says, what did you think of this thing? I don't think it's the time to bear your testimony and say that it wasn't. Didn't say enough about Joseph Smith or other things. But I think we want to talk in the idiom in which they're talking. That's one of the things that I think is important. Important? What else do I think is important? I think it's very important for young women, as in the summer seminar, to have lives of their own and to be following their own possibilities. And I'm very happy to see that we have. Half of our women now have children, but all of them are continuing on in the things that they were doing. They all have lives of their own. They all have ambitions, they have abilities, and they're going to do useful work in the world. So I feel very good about that. Do we have any other questions? Is that it?

Guest 2 [00:34:00] No.

Melissa Inouye [00:34:00] Is there anything else that you wanted to say?

Claudia Bushman [00:34:03] Let me see, let me see.

Melissa Inouye [00:34:05] It doesn't have to be about Mormon women. It could be about anything.

Claudia Bushman [00:34:11] No. I have two things to say. The first one is that we have in the church we had this very difficult perfectionist model, particularly for the women. That's a very hard thing for our women to live up to, and they all feel bad about it. I know. And one of the reasons I went to graduate school in the first place was so I could escape that. I just didn't want to always be competing with my friends on what kind of meals I served and the clothes my children were wearing and things like that. But where does it come from? When I picked out this review from a book. It's an ad, really, from a book called Flawed Families of the Bible. Isn't that wonderful? And this is what the reviewer and you thought that your family was messed up for all you abusers and abused, addicted, raped codependents and control freaks. Good news. God loves to work with families like yours and mine. Here are family values God's way. A messy assortment of marriages and families that only God could love and God does. Now isn't that terrific? That's Flawed Families of the Bible by David E. Garland and Diana R. Garland. And isn't it true everybody. I know lots of people, people whose lives look just perfect and they are wonderful people, talented, beautiful, accomplished in all sorts of ways. But I know enough of their secret sorrows to know that all of us have very real problems, that we feel guilty about them as well as feeling sorrowful about them, feel that if we were doing things right, everything would be perfect. But see, the Bible doesn't stack and up very well to this measure. And so why should we? I mean, we have to admit we've got problems. We certainly do. So that's one of the things that I want to say. The other one is where are the models that we are going to use for our lives. And the recent one that I've discovered is from Section 25 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which is the section given to Emma. And there are many familiar things about it. That's where she's told to do the hymn book. That's where she's told to be a scribe for her husband until someone else is available. And she does both those things. We know she does those well. But in looking it over, I saw that there were other things that it said. It said that she should be ordained under the hand of her husband, Joseph Smith, to expound the Scriptures and exhort the congregation, which sounds very much like the kind of thing that Quaker women were doing in their church at the time. So here is Emma being given the opportunity. Actually, it's a commandment. She's supposed to do it to speak in church and to interpret the Scriptures. And as far as we know, she never did that. But supposing she had, Just think what a model that would be for our women today. I just think that's a very useful thing to keep in mind. So that's the model for us all. Expound the Scriptures and exhort the congregation.

Melissa Inouye [00:37:36] That's it. Thanks very much.

Guest [00:37:40] Thanks again for tuning in to Mormon Stories Podcast. For feedback on this episode or on any of our past episodes, please visit us today at MormonStories.org or email us at MormonStoriesMail.com to discuss this episode with others in the LDS Blogger Knuckle, please check out ExponentBlog.blogspot.com that's ExponentBlog.blogspot.com finally, we'd also like to thank Sky Pixton for providing us with the music for this episode. To hear more of Sky's music, please check her out today@skypixton.com that's s k y-e pixton.com and thanks again for Listen.

Guest 2 [00:38:39] My rest of soul yet in my dreams I'd be Nearer my Go to thee Nearer my go to thee Nearer to thee. There let the way appear Steps unto heaven all that thou send me in mercy angels to beckon me Nearer my God, to thee Nearer my God to thee Nearer to thee. Then with my waking thoughts Bright with thy praise out of my stony grace Bethel outrage so by my woes to be Nearer, my God to thee Nearer my God to thee Nearer to thee oh Rifond joyful cleaving the sky sun, moon and stars Upward I fly still all my song shall be Nearer my God to thee Nearer my God to thee Nearer to thee Nearer near, my God, to thee Nearer to the.

Claudia Bushman [00:40:54] Sa.

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