Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:00:36] The kindly light amid encircling gloom

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Lead

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:00:43] thou me on the night is dark and I am.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin, and I am super excited for another podcast episode. For those of you who tuned in last episode, we interviewed a great guy named Carson Calderwood. Carson is a dentist, he lives in Washington State and he is being threatened with excommunication. And as I mentioned at the beginning of last episode, you know, the focus of Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation going forward, a heavy portion of the focus is going to be on supporting Mormons in transition. And transition can mean anything. It can mean someone who's transitioning from orthodoxy to progressive Mormonism, from questioning Mormonism to apologetic Mormonism to post Mormonism, or even from post Mormonism back into Mormonism. But if you think about it, two thirds of all members of the LDS Church are no longer orthodox or traditional members, maybe even more than two thirds. And so, you know, transitioning really is central to the Mormon experience. And as we think about the 21st century, the church is going through some real growing pains. And with the excommunication of Kate and of me and in the way that it's handling things like support of same sex marriage and ordained women, the church is really in this pickle where it's having to figure out in real time over the Internet how to deal with people who are public and open about their doubts and questions and their disagreements with the church. And so last week we interviewed Carson. And in that interview, Carson talked about a letter that he and his wife Marisa wrote together that they shared around Christmas time of 2014 to kind of, you know, tell the world what their thoughts and views were and what the reasons were and weren't for, you know, for their loss of traditional belief in the church. And so I read through that and really enjoyed what Marisa had to say. I thought it was really thoughtful and very interesting. So, you know, just as sort of a, as sort of an intro, Marisa, you know, she was A Hinckley scholar at byu. Really thoughtful woman. She always wanted to be sort of some type of scientist. She had a lot of big dreams for herself, and I think she still does. But we want to hear her point of view of what's happened with her and Carson. We also want to hear about her story and how her story plays into how she's feeling now about the church.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:03:42] And.

John Dehlin [00:03:42] And we also just want to talk about where the Calderwood are and where they think they're going and what it's like to be a mother of children in the 21st century when you're trying to figure out what to do after you've left orthodox Mormonism. Plus, Carson and Marisa met with their stake president last night, and it looks like they're both possibly going to be called into a disciplinary council, which is something I'm not sure has happened yet. I mean, we have the Toscanos where, you know, Paul got called years before his wife, but. But now, you know, it's interesting to see with Kate Kelly, they never called, you know, Neil in, even though he supported her 100%. They never called my wife Margi in, even though she supported me. But now it looks like they may be disciplining both Carson and Marisa together. So, anyway, a lot of cool things to talk about today. So, Marisa Pond Calderwood, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:04:45] Hi. Thanks for having me, John.

John Dehlin [00:04:47] Yeah, my pleasure. So let's begin by going back, and I just love the stuff you wrote in your letter. So if you don't mind, you know, talk about what the church meant to you as a girl growing up and what led you, you know, what it was like in your early and adolescent years in the church. And. And talk about the role that thought and science and the intellect played up through the point where you got the Hinckley Scholarship, which is what, one of 12 or 16 students each year get that scholarship. Is that right?

The Hinckley Scholarship and Early Faith

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:05:21] Yeah. At that time, it was 12 boys and 12 girls.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] Yeah. So it's the most elite. Joanna Brooks got that sort of similar thing when she went to byu. It may have been the Benson Scholarship or it may have been the Hinckley, but, Marisa, tell us about your early Mormon story.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:05:36] Okay. I grew up in Bellevue, Washington, and I think possibly Seattle area is a little more liberal, as, I mean, obviously it is politically, but even in the church maybe a little more than the Wasatch front or some other areas. So I don't feel like I got that. The strongly dogmatic version of Mormonism growing up, you know, Certainly there was a lot of traditional Mormonism in it, but with my parents and the way that people were around me, I didn't feel like Mormonism directly conflicted with anything that I felt inside of me. So I just. I loved science from the time I was little, and I found out that I was good at math and I was good in school. And so I just. I loved school. I love. I took all the classes that I could. I took all the advanced classes. I was really into music. I did a lot of leadership. And my parents had told me that when they went to BYU that they knew some people who were presidential scholars, and they said, we think you could do this. This would be a great goal for you. So I made it my goal. I thought it would be prestigious. I would feel awesome about myself. And so I just. I threw myself into school and leadership and music and every opportunity that I could have. And I was very much in the church. I was, you know, fully participated in seminary. My senior year, I was the seminary president. I went to girls camp for all seven years that I possibly could. I just loved it. I felt comfortable as a Mormon woman or girl. And I felt like, you know, we're living in a new time, and I can be anything that I want to be, and I'm smart, and I have a great future ahead of me. So I planned to go to BYU and then go on a mission and then come back and go to graduate school and get a PhD in genetics. It was my favorite branch of science. And I just felt I was pretty outgoing. I just felt very, very confident. And I loved kind of like logic and rational thought, science, math, music, and, you know, just life, really. And so that was my attitude, I guess, when I showed up at byu. And at first I just was. I was really having a great time. So do you want to hear more about my childhood?

John Dehlin [00:08:05] Yeah. So tell me, as far as. And I asked Carson this too. Like, what would you say your testimony was rooted in. In your adolescence? Do you remember, you know, praying about the truthfulness of the church? Do you remember wanting to know if it was true? Do you remember taking Moroni's Challenge? Just talk about how you would have characterized your testimony and what it was based in at the time.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:08:28] Okay, so I was pretty serious, even though I tend to be friendly or social. But I also have been a very. A very serious person, like, taking things seriously my whole life. So when I was nine years old, I thought. I loved to read. I loved history and fiction and science fiction and everything. And so I was Very young. But I realized I had never read the Book of Mormon the whole way through. And I was embarrassed BY that at 9 years old and I thought, I'm not doing my duty. So I read it the whole way through and I said, okay, I'm going to get down on my knees and pray about it. And, and I felt like, this is stupid. I already know that it's true, but you kind of have to go through the motions, so I'll do it anyway. So I got down on my knees and prayed about it and I felt a warm fuzzy feeling and I said, sweet, the Book of Mormon is true. And I had clung to that really my whole life where I said, this experience that I had when I was nine is the foundation for my testimony. And over the years I felt a lot of other good feelings. You know, I remember specifically one time at EFY and I felt I was upset, feeling like I wasn't good enough. And I was a teenager and I felt like someone's arms were around me. I felt like that I could feel the Savior's love. And so I felt happy, positive feelings, you know, that I interpreted to be the spirit. And I felt sometimes direction and guidance in my life, but not nearly as much as I would like. So I, I was that person. I, I got up as a teenager in fast and testimony meeting all the time. I was just, I was maybe more dogmatic than my parents, you know, I just, I, this church is true. It's, it was no question in my mind. I look towards my future as going on a mission and always serving in the church for the rest of my life.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] And where did you get this idea you wanted a PhD? Is that right? In genetics? How can a girl being raised in the what, 90s? Were you raised in the 90s?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:10:53] Yeah, 90s.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] How could a girl being raised in the 90s during the, you know, right off of Ezra Top Benson and, and a lot of the talks about the woman's role is in the home. How did you feel the liberty to aspire towards a PhD?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:11:09] You know, I'm not sure. Maybe I was impetuous enough. I just said, well, that's what I want to do. And my mom was a stay at home mom and I valued that. And I thought maybe that I could just make it work some being a stay at home mom, but working a couple days a week, I didn't really think it through a lot. You know, I was a teenager and that's just what I wanted to do. And I wanted to use my mind and do Something that I really enjoyed. So. And I think maybe I missed enough of the President Benson, you know, and I got more of the President Hinckley. That was just a lot more feel good, you know, I loved President Hinckley and he said men and women were equal in the church. And I believed him. That's what he would say in conference. And I thought, this is great. You know, we live in a new era. And I loved President Hinckley and I read his whole biography and I met him because when, if you're a presidential scholar, you get to meet that president of the church. And I just really enjoyed every minute of it up until that point.

John Dehlin [00:12:11] Was he super cool?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:12:13] So I was a little disappointed because he met all 24 of the Hinklist scholars for that year at the same time right before he was going to go on and speak at a devotional. So we all dressed up and went to meet him and we got our picture taken with him and it was so exciting. And he wanted to speak to each person individually just for a minute and find out kind of what your major was. And so I stepped up and to shake his hand and he asked what my major was. And I said molecular biology. And he kind of rolled his eyes and pulled me through the line as like, as he was holding my hand like, oh, you're done. You're molecular biology. What? And I felt like I got cheated out of my minute to talk with him because I had maybe chosen a major that was too technical for a girl. I don't know. I don't know what he was thinking, but I would like all this. I was disappointed, to be honest.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] You didn't get to talk as much as you wanted to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That'd be hard. That'd be disappointing. Okay, so you go to BYU and what happens?

Traditional Mormon Culture and Marriage at Nineteen

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:13:24] So I think I started to become immersed in that more traditional Mormon culture. I started to see it more and especially I took a class called LDS Marriage and Family. It was a religion elective. And it, you know, there were just, it was a huge manual for that book full of conscious talks. And it was just every hard hitting, very traditional roles of men and women. Birth control is not okay. You know, we care about what you do in your bedroom. Just all of those talks put into this manual. So in that. That was a rude awakening for me. I thought, hold on a minute.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] What did it say about the bedroom? What did it say about the bedroom?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:14:06] Oh, you know, that not everything that you might want to do between husband and wife is permissible.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] Kind of no oral sex kind of thing.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:14:15] Well, definitely. There was the letter on no oral sex. The letter to bishops and stake presidents. And I was, I guess, enough of a, like I said, take things seriously type of person that I read those, and I thought, man, maybe I shouldn't go on birth control. Maybe that is really what God thinks. But they just let it go. It's not in the manual anymore because of the weakness of people these days. You know, we're too selfish. We can't handle the real doctrine, so they're watering it down for us. So I took those things very seriously that I read in that manual, even if they were 50, 60 years old. That was the gospel truth to me at the time.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] This is your freshman year.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:14:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] So it's. Woman should stay home and have lots of kids and support her husband and.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:15:03] Yes, definitely. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:15:06] Anything else? Any other main things that really stuck with you?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:15:09] No. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] Okay. All right. So. So, like, what. What. What are you. Are you. What are you thinking about your PhD dream as you're. As you're reading this stuff?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:15:20] It. It. That was at the same time that I was engaged to Carson.

John Dehlin [00:15:23] Oh, so you met Carson as a freshman?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:15:26] Yes, I met Carson October of my freshman year.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] Oh, wow. So you're like, two months into your freshman year. He's a returned missionary.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:15:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] How recently did he return?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:15:37] He'd been back for a year. So I was 19 and he was 22.

John Dehlin [00:15:40] Awesome. Okay.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:15:41] So, I mean, he was. He was ripe and ready for marriage. Right. He'd been back a year. It was like any time now, so. And I didn't. At first, I didn't want to date him because that wasn't part of my plan.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] Right.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:15:53] I had two more years before I could even go on a mission, so I really wasn't planning to date returned missionaries. But he walked up to me in the library at BYU and he said, it looks like you're studying from the same book as me. Do you have that biology midterm on Monday? And we did. We were in the same class, so we started studying together. And so there goes not wanting to date returned missionaries. You know, we got to know each other, and I knew within about three weeks that Carson was the one I was gonna marry. And he actually said he went home that night and told his friends that he thought he met the girl he was gonna marry. Unfortunately, he didn't tell me that that night. I would have freaked out on him, but. So that. That was probably the rudest awakening for me. You know, here I was with all of My dreams in the fall of my freshman year. And I started to like Carson despite myself, despite my desires or my. What I thought was my better judgment at the time. And it, it really just hit me, you know, that I felt a strong feeling that I was going to marry him. And it was like, my life is over. Which is so dumb because, you know, it should be a wonderful feeling. Yay. This is the person that I'm going to spend the rest of my life with. But for me it was, no, wait, this isn't part of my plan. Not yet. I'm not ready for this.

John Dehlin [00:17:19] So were you split into that because you were choosing it? Why were you were choosing it? Because of what?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:17:28] Because I felt so strongly like it was the right thing to do. I thought that. I thought it was like that God hit me with a ton of bricks, that I almost felt like I had no choice in the matter because I felt such a strong impression.

John Dehlin [00:17:45] And you felt part of you die, Is that what you're saying?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:17:49] Just the dreams that. It was like I had derailed myself, that this wasn't where my life was supposed to go. I had it all planned out and this wasn't part of the plan. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:01] So there was a sadness as you were going into your wedding inside you?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:18:07] Yes. I was very self conscious. I thought everyone was gonna think I was one of those girls that just went to BYU to get her Mrs. Degree. And I wasn't. You know, I'm a strong, confident, independent girl. But I started to feel less that way and I. So we took that class the second semester of my freshman year, lds, marriage and family. And I started to say, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm not supposed to go to graduate school. Maybe I don't have this exciting and bright future ahead of me. Maybe I am going to have this boring life stuck as a second class woman having a million babies that I never thought I would have. But maybe to do the right thing, to follow God, to choose the right, maybe this is what I have to do.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] So. So it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be accurate to simply describe you as like super excited to get married and to start a family.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:19:11] Oh, no. If you ask people that knew me at the time, I was terrified. And I. There were. There were so many times that I said this, I'm not going to do it. This, this is stupid. And I would pray about it and I would feel calm and so I thought, okay. And I felt comfortable that I wanted to be with Carson, but I just didn't want to get married when I was 19.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] So what happened? So now we're in the spring of your freshman year. Then what happens?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:19:42] Yeah. So finished out the semester and we decided to get married in May.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] So of that semester.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:19:50] Yes. And the semester ended in April. And. And we. When we got married in May.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] Wow.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:19:57] So we. So Carson and his family flew up to the Seattle area, and two days before our wedding date, I went through the temple to receive my endowment. And I thought I was having a really hard time up until that point, but that was nothing compared to. To going to the temple for the first time.

John Dehlin [00:20:23] What was wrong with that?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:20:24] I felt like the rug got pulled out from under me. Really?

John Dehlin [00:20:28] What part of it?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:20:29] So it was almost entirely the feminism or anti feminism. The second class positioning of women in the temple. A lot of things that bother people didn't bother me as much. Like the initiatory, I was kind of like, okay, this is kind of weird, but I was okay until the specific language about women being under their husbands.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] Is it hearkening to your husband?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:20:56] That's the big one. You know, hearkening to your husband. And I had been a big fan of Laura Ingalls Wilder when I was a kid. Not the show, but the books. So I read the entire series five times. Little House on the Prairie, all eight books. It was just. It was my thing. And that was in the 1900s, or actually the 1890s. So Laura Ingalls Wilder, in that book, when she got married, she told the pastor, I can't say the word obey. She said, I know this is traditional. I know you always do it, but I can't promise to obey someone else against my better judgment, and I won't do it. So the pastor was cool with it. They changed the marriage ceremony for her, and she didn't promise to obey her husband. So here I was, over 100 years later and shocked to find out that in my religion that I hold dear to my heart, that I deeply believe in, I'm being asked to do the same thing. I'm being asked to promise to listen to or hearken to. And, you know, it's only been a little, you know, a few decades since they used the word obey to my husband.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] And, oh, it used to say. It used to say obey.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:22:07] Yes. Before 1990.

John Dehlin [00:22:09] That's right. I'd forgotten about that.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:22:12] So. But, you know, Harken is just a slightly watered down version of obey. I think it's similar. And so I felt like I had lost myself. I felt like I had lost my choices. My Independence. I felt like I was a woman in the 1800s now, where I'm almost just property to my husband. My husband rules over me. And, I mean, that's a little dramatic, but that's how I felt like the system was set up.

John Dehlin [00:22:41] I was going to say, like, why not? The mentality of, like, church is true. Led by a prophet. God gave the temple ceremony. Whatever said there has got to be okay, because it's the church that created it. Why didn't you have that reaction when you're going through the temple?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:22:59] I think I did. I said, I never questioned that it was from God. So I. So I heard that, and I said, oh, no, this is the real gospel. This is from God. This. I really am second class. And I don't know why I sold myself out that way. I really don't. And I wish I had seen it a different way. But from the wording in the temple, not just the marriage ceremony with the word Harken, but also in the endowment, you know, they're constantly talking about that you could be a priestess to your husband. You know, that you're really accessing God through your husband. And I just. I.

John Dehlin [00:23:41] And your husband and your husband brings you through the veil.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:23:43] Right, Right. Certainly.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] Yeah.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:23:45] Yeah. So I just felt like in every way now, I could see that in the church, men were above women, and I couldn't get around it. I talked with my parents about it. I stayed up half the night and cried. And I said, I don't understand. I didn't think it was going to be like this. And they said, oh, it's not really that bad. And they just tried to make me feel better. And, you know, it was two days before the wedding, so I thought to myself, what am I gonna do here? And I kind of made the excuse that I trust Carson to not treat me like I'm second class. And so even though I don't like it, as a principal, I can go through with the marriage because. Because I trusted Carson. So in my personal life, I thought, it's gonna be okay, even though I never liked the concept of it. But what I didn't realize then is that even if Carson didn't want to put me in a second class positioning, I was putting myself in that position. So I. You know, just over time, I feel like I really sold myself out. I didn't feel independent anymore. I didn't feel strong and confident anymore. I felt like the things about me that had been great before, like that I'm musically talented, that I tend to be very Passionate, outspoken, even, that I really just enjoy like, going dancing or, you know, going to school and learning things that are intellectual. I felt like all of those parts of me were cut off because I. That doesn't. That's not becoming for a good Mormon woman, you know, that's not. That's not who I should be. That's my natural man or. And so all of the. The life and the spark in me, I felt like, was somehow bad and that that's not who I could be. That's not who I should be.

Depression and Resentment in the Housewife Role

John Dehlin [00:25:40] Did you start to get depressed?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:25:41] Oh, yes. Very, very, very depressed. That first year that we were married, I cried, like, almost every day. Carson hates it if I say that, because he doesn't want people to think it's his fault, you know, but it's not. He wasn't a horrible. And, you know, he still is a wonderful person. But I didn't understand what was going on at the time. I didn't understand why I was so sad. But I felt like I had been. I felt like I had been sold out, in a way by the church because, you know, President Hinckley says men and women are equal in the church. And then you go to the temple, which is supposed to be our pure doctrine or the real gospel. And it seemed very obvious to me that they weren't, you know, that I'm not equal. God doesn't love me as much as he loves a man. And not everyone comes to that conclusion. But for whatever reason, I really did. I took it to heart, and I felt like I couldn't get around it. And so then I was angry with God. And then I. And I had a hard time having a good relationship with God because it seemed so unfair to me, but I couldn't get around it. And how. And we have a lot of things in our history, like polygamy, where it seems that women are second class to men, you know, that women don't matter as much. Their feelings don't matter as much. Certainly in the structure of our church today, we have. Women have no real authority. You know, they might be auxiliary leaders, but they're all under men. So it just became more apparent to me that I couldn't keep that naive version of the church that I had had when I was younger. And I. You know, Carson and I would talk it over and he would say, I don't want it to be this way. I don't see you as being second class. But why does it say that? He and I was. It was a relief to me to have him admit that it looks bad, that if you pick it apart logically, it looks like God actually does see women as secondary, that they're a help meet to men and that men are the, the pinnacle.

John Dehlin [00:27:44] Right. So did you, did you finish your undergraduate?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:27:49] I did. I, you know, I had a full ride scholarship, so I thought I better just bust this out before Carson goes to dental school so that I can finish at byu. So I finished in three years. I graduated in. Yeah, it was rough. It was a lot of classes. And I graduated in 2001 in the. Had changed the name of the major to zoology and the human biology side of zoology. So that was Carson and I walked across the stage together at graduation because we had the same last name and the same major. So we finished that and I finished.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] Did you ever take any classes from Bill Bradshaw, my good friend?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:28:28] Yes, yes. I'm glad you brought that up. So I felt like the cell biology classes I took from Dr. Bradshaw, they were the hardest and most mind bending classes of my life. I felt like my mind was put through a torture chamber to learn how to think analytically. It was so difficult. But I felt like it changed me for the better. It really did. Seriously. I owe Bill Bradshaw my critical thinking skills and I loved those classes and I really respect him. And, and that was really the highlight of BYU for me.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] I got to take religion classes from Bill Bradshaw. How's that?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:29:09] Oh, that would be something else.

John Dehlin [00:29:12] That's cool. So you guys graduate, you go to dental school. How soon do the kids start coming?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:29:18] So at that point, I had kind of accepted with a great deal of resentment my role as a Mormon woman. And I think I sometimes, I call it my first paradigm shift around that time, that first year that I was married, I felt like I sold myself out, like I was saying. And I just committed to. Well, I know the church is true. So I'm gonna go down this path and I'm do the best that I can at it. So, you know, graduation was in April, so I said, okay, I could have a baby anytime after April. You know, everyone else at BYU is having babies. It feels almost like you've been married for almost two years. Why don't you have a baby yet? Even though I was only 21, so I had a baby, our first son, Trey, in July of that year. So I graduated in April, had Trey in July, and Carson started dental school in August.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] Wow. So how many kids total?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:30:15] We have four kids now.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] Four kids.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:30:17] They are now 13, 10, 8 and 5.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] Okay. And so, you know, just briefly Talk about what your, what your relationship to the church was, your role in the church was, and how your mental health was and your spirituality from then until, let's just say last year.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:30:36] Okay, so I felt comfortable socially in Mormonism, that it was, you know, it was my home, my tribe. I liked that we could move anywhere and kind of have an instant group of friends. So in that way we really enjoyed Mormonism, you know, the community and some of the growth that can take place. And we, we didn't feel comfortable raising our kids with a lot of the indoctrination and so but we didn't totally realize that until last year. So I would say for the most part that we were a typical Mormon family, but we tried very hard to always do the right thing, but we didn't give our kids a lot of hard hitting dogma. So Carson had a lot of really time consuming callings in the church and I often was playing the piano for things because that's always a need. And then I have also just done some things like enrichment leader and I find myself doing a lot of non calling related service in the church because I have quite a few things that I want, I don't know if I want to say talents or capabilities, but just people are always asking me to do things, you know, so I am always teaching a class or doing something. So I was feeling a little burnt out about that. Like there was just so many, so much going on always, you know, that I was being asked to go above and beyond and resenting it really because my heart wasn't in it. So a lot of service in the church for both Carson and me. And also there was a very slow transition of understanding about the church.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] So Carson had been before, before we talk about the faith. You talking faith transition?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:32:31] Sure, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:31] Before we talk about that, talk about your mental health as it related to giving up your PhD and having four kids and really filling that traditional role. Did that end up being okay for you or was part of you dying inside?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:32:47] Yeah, for sure, part of me was dying inside and I think more than most women really. And at the time I thought, what's wrong with me? Why can't I be happy? I have a great life. I have great kids, great husband. I have, you know, the true church and I live in America. Why I must be like the worst kind of person that I can't be happy in this situation. You know, there's starving people in Africa that are happy and I am not happy. And I think a lot of other women didn't understand it that why I was miserable a lot, and I guess because it wasn't what I wanted to do, and I didn't feel like it was my choice, and not so much that I wouldn't ever have stayed home with my kids, but that I would have liked to do more. You know, I would like to have been developing myself and for the most part, staying home with my kids. But I felt like the development of myself was put on hold indefinitely. And I was resentful about it, and I was depressed. I just. I felt like that I didn't have choices in my life, and, like, I was just almost no reason to get out of bed in the morning. Like, I just got to clean the house and get the kids off to school and do X, Y, and Z every day for the rest of my foreseeable future. And. And so for sure, I was depressed, and I felt like I was getting tense all the time, and I physically was getting tense. So around. I started to notice it about five years ago, after my daughter was born, that I just. I had headaches all day. Every day. I would wake up with a horrible headache. I'd have to. I'd take a handful of pills to get rid of my headache every, like, maybe four times a day. I was really just, like, surviving on ibuprofen, and I didn't know why. And so I started to realize. And really, it took me probably three years after having just, like, these sometimes debilitating headaches, I started to realize that I was clenching my teeth a lot. Even just in the middle of the day, I just would. I was so tense. I was clenching my teeth also. I was hunching my shoulders, and I. I just had this, like, underconfident pose that then when I looked back at myself in pictures, I thought, why am I standing like that? And I just. I felt almost like I was pulling in on myself. And I had had. I actually had had a hard time keeping my shoulders back right from the time that I started wearing garments. And Carson noticed it at first, when that first year we were married, he said, why? You know, why. Why are you hunching your shoulders like that? And I don't know. I. I didn't know why I was doing it at the time, but I think it was just an outward manifestation of the way that I was feeling inside, that I often felt like my garments represented the principles of the temple that I didn't like. So they were like a physical manifestation of I'm not good enough. So I felt I was starting to feel smothered kind of by wearing my garments. And, you know, it was psychological, but I told someone recently that it's kind of like a prison jumpsuit in the way that if that's your feeling about it, that it could be dehumanizing. Every day you're putting on something that represents that you're. You're not good enough, that you're second class. To me, this. I was just smothering myself emotionally, mentally, spiritually. And I felt like I didn't have choices for my life and that, you know, that's what a prison jumpsuit is, right? It takes away your choices. And I felt like I can't even pick my own underwear, you know, so that between the garments and just my. And my mental state, I was tense and unhappy all the time. And where I had been more of a fun mom earlier on, I started to be a stressed out, you know, yell at my kids, easily not happy person.

John Dehlin [00:36:58] And so to what extent does that dovetail with the unraveling of belief within the Calderwood home?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:37:09] So I still wasn't thinking there's a problem with the church. You know, I was thinking, there's a problem with me, that I can't handle it. That. So.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Do you remember a low point for you.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:37:27] In the fall of 2014? Beginning, I mean, fall of 2013, beginning of 2014, that. That whole. The last school year, man, I was unhappy. I mean, I was just. I was. I was so, so, so unhappy. And I didn't know exactly why. And I felt like maybe Carson didn't understand me, you know, or maybe it was because he didn't believe that the church was true. Maybe that was the problem. And, you know, and, you know, I have adhd, my kids have adhd. So it can get a little chaotic and it's hard for me to stay on top of things. So I thought, well, maybe that's the problem, you know. So I went. I went to a chiropractor for my neck tension. I went to a psychiatrist for my ADHD problems. And we started seeing Jennifer Finlayson, fife LDS therapist, who is one of my favorite people in the world. And so it was that. It was. It was so bad, I guess, that I was. Started trying to fix it, if that makes sense. And the only. The only thing that really made the difference was the therapy, the psychotherapy, where it. I always. I feel like I always come to Jennifer where I say, okay, is it A or is it B? And it winds up really being C or Z or something totally different, you know. So when I started with Her. I was like, okay, am I the problem is Carson the problem? And it. It really was that neither of us were really the problem. It was just the frame that we had for our marriage and that and for our own lives, the frame that we were in and really our paradigm and the way that we were thinking.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] Okay, so that's. That's spilling into 2014.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:39:15] Yes.

The Unraveling of Belief and Faith Transition

John Dehlin [00:39:16] So maybe now talk about. About the belief and the unraveling of belief in your home.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:39:24] Okay, so for over a decade, Carson was more or less agnostic, and I was pretty tbm, and I was mad at him for not believing. And I fell into all those traps where I said, you know, he's tried so hard to have a spiritual experience or to know the truth, but maybe he's just not trying in the right way. You know, I. So sometimes I threw him under the bus, and, you know, that's embarrassing, but I was. I was locked in that culture, and I thought, there must be a problem with him. Why can't he believe? It was a point of frustration between us, for sure. And. And I would get sometimes frustrated when he would research or when he would look into things, and then he would come back and tell me. And I was really conflicted. I was bothered. I was really disturbed. A lot of the things that he would tell me, he read rough stone rolling, and, you know, we're sitting there in bed at night, and he would be like, did you know this? Did you know this? Did you know this? And, you know, sometimes I would be like, what? That. Why did the church lie to us about that? I would be frustrated, and then sometimes I would be like, why are you reading that? Why can't you just put that away? And so sometimes I'd be frustrated with him, and it was. It was a point of tension between us for at least a decade.

John Dehlin [00:40:47] Did you look down on him as kind of a disappointment?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:40:51] Yeah. I mean, that's sad. It's not news to Carson. But I thought, this is not what I wanted for my life. Right. Even though he was. He served in the church, we went to the temple, we paid our tithing. You know, we did everything that we were supposed to do. I wanted more than that. I wanted a husband who believed. I wanted a husband that wanted to be spiritual in the way that I wanted to be. So in that way, I was disappointed. And I was mad at God for telling me that I was supposed to marry Carson because I felt this strong impression that I was supposed to marry him. And I thought, okay, if I have faith, then it will all work out. And then I had faith that I took that leap of faith. I married him, I tried the best I could, and then he still didn't believe. He still didn't have a spiritual experience. And I thought, that's not fair. You know, unfortunately, now I look back and I realize that what I was feeling was entitlement, that I thought, this isn't what I signed up for, you know, so I was mad at him for being different from me.

John Dehlin [00:42:01] And that's not good on the marriage.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:42:02] Right, right, right. So, you know, I mean, I, I tried to understand him for sure, and we had long, long conversations about it, and he tried to stay more faithful and more believing for me. So, I mean, it wasn't all bad. You know, I, I've seen people do a lot worse than. And I've tried very hard to understand him, but I was resentful for a long time.

John Dehlin [00:42:31] So what changed for you? What cracked you open?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:42:36] So about a year ago, Carson said, I don't know if I want to attend every Sunday anymore. And I kind of could have. I kind of saw it coming. You know, we had been having a hard year already and. But that I thought, you can't do that to me. I'm not gonna be that woman that drags her kids to church all by herself. Everybody's gonna feel sorry for me. You know, I thought, this sucks. You know, I was unhappy about it for sure. And then I realized that I was stuck because I wanted to see him as being a bad person. The Mormon inside of me wanted to see him as being a bad person for not wanting to really be a Mormon anymore. I couldn't see past that. I was saying, no, People that leave the church are bad. People do it for bad reasons. They never could have real happiness after they leave the church. So what am I going to do about this? My husband wants to leave the church. But, you know, the wife in me or the person that's in love with Carson said, Carson's not a bad person. You know, he tries and tries and tries and he is nice to everyone and he helps everyone. And I, I can't see him as a bad person. One of these things has got to go. And I was. I had a huge conflict within myself and so I wrestled with it and I just had to put down that smug self righteousness that said I have all the answers and that it's always better to stay in the church and people that leave the church are bad. And it was a huge relief to put down those preconceived notions. And to just say leaving the church might be a good idea for Carson. He's going to be happier. He. I can respect that in him, and I'm not going to say that it's his fault. So that. Right. That was the beginning of a real faith transition for me.

John Dehlin [00:44:44] Why not? Why not his fault?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:44:47] Because I know him, because I know how hard he tries. There's no way God thinks of him as a bad person. There's no way God's withholding a spiritual experience from him for any reason. You know, he. I just couldn't put that on him, I guess, because I know him and I know better and I could follow what I've been indoctrinated to believe or I could follow my heart.

John Dehlin [00:45:18] So you went with your heart.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:45:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:21] And you say that was the beginning of something for you as well.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:45:26] Right. So just that putting down that. That attitude that I have all the answers and that you're different from me and that leaving the church is always bad, you know, putting that away allowed me to open up my mind a little more. And I sometimes describe it that some people, they start looking into church history or doctrine and they're blindsided by it. Right. That wasn't the case with me because I've been talking about all of the problems of the church with Carson for years and years. So I sometimes describe it as all the dominoes were lined up that, you know, there's this, here's blacks in the priesthood, here's polygamy, here's, you know, the historicity of the Book of Mormon. So all these dominoes were lined up for me, but I was just trying to do those mental gymnastics to find a way that the church could still be true. And that thing that is, you know, shown to be true can coexist. So I was just trying to find that faith, promoting spin on every part of it and not allowing myself to ask the question, what if the church isn't true? You know, that to me is like saying the sky at that point is like saying the sky is not blue.

John Dehlin [00:46:44] Right.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:46:44] It is. Right. It's just to me, the. The fact that the church was true was such a part of me that it was unquestionable up until that point.

John Dehlin [00:46:52] Right.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:46:53] So all the dominoes were set up. And when I allowed myself to say, what if the church isn't true?

John Dehlin [00:47:02] Yeah.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:47:03] Then it's like all those dominoes came down and everything made so much more sense to me. I'd just been wrestling with every little thing in my mind for so long, and Then it was, it was just a relief. It was, you know, if the church isn't true, if Joseph Smith made it up, then those hundred things make sense. And what I'm seeing right now, and this is around the time that Kate Kelly was excommunicated. So we had already planned a trip to Utah to visit Carson's family, a two week trip. And it just happened to be at that time. So we went downtown Salt Lake on that day when they were waiting for an answer, and we, we found the people that had been holding the vigil. We were a little late, so we ran into Lindsay Hansen park on the street and we wound up hanging out with them and talking with them. And I, I felt like I met Kate Kelly and I, I talked with a lot of people. I felt like I was seeing in front of my face, literally the church being intentionally deceiving. I felt like, and I, I had seen that through, you know, my study of history and doctrine and. But I felt like it cemented it for me. It was like, here it is right now in our day, you know, the church is, is saying one thing and doing another.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] What were they being deceitful about?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:48:30] Well, for me it was mostly that they had said that it was only a local discipline, but you know, then Elder Ballard had flown out to Virginia the week before. And I felt like it was, it was intentionally misleading that they were choosing their words carefully so that most members would think that Kate Kelly was crazy. But you know, that if you were to look at the whole story, you would see that the church wasn't being totally truthful.

John Dehlin [00:48:59] Yeah.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:48:59] And I felt like then I could, then I could see a lot of that, a lot of being intentionally misleading. And so we were there in Utah. We, I had just been going through in my personal life all of these changes over the past few months. And one night we were at Carson's sister's house who's not been active in the church for a few years and who's married to a wonderful man who's never been a Mormon. And we talked with them for a long time and I just felt in my heart like God doesn't care that they're not Mormon. They're awesome. My brother in law Chris is one of the nicest, kindest people that I've ever met and he's never been a Mormon. And I stayed up almost the entire night and I couldn't sleep. And I thought, can I respect myself? Can I consider myself a good person if I don't want to be active in the church? And after wrestling with that for, you know, hours and days, it came to me that when I was a young woman, the motto, I guess, for young women used to be, stand for truth and righteousness. Maybe it still is. I don't know, but. And there was a girl that. Her hair was like a flame. She was on the top of a torch. I think people will know what I'm talking about. And that was the young women. And it said, stand for truth and righteousness. And I thought, I'm still that girl. And it reminded me of the Alicia Keys song, this Girl is on Fire. You know, I thought, I still feel that inside of me. I feel that fire burning inside of me. It's not that the church is true. It's that I believe in standing for truth and righteousness. And I'm seeing some things that are not truth, but I believe that. And I'm not. I'm not a bad person. I don't want to be selfish. I don't want to do harm to anybody. But in my core, I believe in standing for truth and righteousness. And I feel like I can do that better outside the church now that I'm seeing it. And my mind changed at that moment. I thought, because I knew I could respect myself, I knew that I didn't have to see myself as a bad person or be disappointed in myself for wanting to leave the church, that I could still be that person who's standing for truth and righteousness.

John Dehlin [00:51:32] So after the Kit Kelly thing and after that experience and what happened, I know Carson at some point put up his ordained women profile. What else happened?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:51:43] Oh, yeah, that was right before that, and that. That was a part of it, I believe, because Carson put up his ordained women profile in the spring. And it was. It was at some point before we.

John Dehlin [00:51:56] We.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:51:56] We traveled to Utah that the bishop had called him in for a regular temple recommend interview and then decided not to give him his temple recommend because he had an ordained woman profile. And so that had happened right before we had gone to Utah. And that was definitely a part of what allowed me to ask the question, what if the church isn't true? It bothered me a lot. Carson spoke about that. And I thought, after 17 years, he's been faithful since. He had an experience that made him agnostic. 17 years he's had a temple recommend. He's worn his garments every day. He's done every. Every calling. He was a seminary teacher for two years, early morning. And now, because he supports equality for women, that's not even for himself, for me. And his mom and my. And our daughter. Now you're going to take away his temple recommend. That was. That was a turning point for me.

John Dehlin [00:52:48] Okay, so take us from. Take us from then to now.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:52:53] Okay, so after that point, I. I started having anxiety for the first time in my life. So I. I mean, I had maybe had a little nervousness about a thing here or there, but I had never had a panic attack. I had never. I never. I didn't think I cared very much what other people thought of me until I decided to do something that I knew everyone would disapprove of. So I came home and I thought, okay, maybe we can still attend church sometimes, but we can just do it on our own terms. And after going to church a few times, and we sing praise to the man, and we have. My kids have lessons on the Old Testament that are literal, and they come home saying, really? And, you know, Carson's unhappy. And a few friends that we've told that we don't know if the church is true anymore are uncomfortable around us. You know, there was just so many parts of it that we said, okay, this doesn't work. There's really no good middle ground. Mormonism. I know some people are doing it, but I honestly don't know how. It was very, very difficult. It was painful. I mean, we had friends turning against us, talking behind our back. We had family members that came down on us, we ward members that said really mean and hateful things, you know, both on Facebook and behind our backs. It was horrible. It really was. And I. And there's. And there are some people that were great, for sure, but when we started to be open about it, we felt a strong rejection from the community, and it gave me a lot of anxiety. And I remember telling Dr. Fife in one of my sessions, I said, I don't understand what's happened to me, but I'm standing in the middle of Costco thinking, I have a busy week. Should I buy more processed foods? But if I buy processed foods, we're going to get cancer from all those preservatives. So. And I started to have a panic attack, and I said, this is stupid. This has nothing to do with leaving the church. Why am I having anxiety about processed foods? And Dr. Fife said, because you don't feel comfortable with your ability to make decisions, even though you know for yourself in your heart that leaving the church is a good decision for you, because every person in your life outside of your immediate family thinks that you're making a bad decision and you're receiving so Much invalidation on every side that you're having a hard time trusting your ability to make good decisions. So it really. It. You know, it started to affect every aspect of my life. I one day would say, I'm just going to be myself and I'm going to wear a tank top to the park. And then I would have a panic attack, you know, because I'm. I'm pushing the limits on what people think is acceptable. And so that's. That was hard for me. Carson started to feel. He. Well, he was hugely relieved to have me be on the same page as him after being married for 15 years. I mean, it was. I mean, like, maybe the best time of his life. I mean, really, he was so incredibly happy, and. And he felt comfortable speaking out where he hadn't before, you know, because he didn't have to worry about disappointing me or causing problems for me. And so he just became much more vocal. But I found that even though I wanted to, I couldn't do that because I couldn't take the heat, because people say mean things about Carson on his Facebook posts, and he just blows it off. He says, oh, whatever. And I. It's hard for me, you know, it's hard for me personally that people are saying those things about my husband. So that has been a real struggle for me. You know, I. I have felt just a lot of rejection, a lot of. And a lot of personal doubt. So I'm. I'm pretty polar, you know, and. And it is getting better. I should say every month, it's getting better. You know, as. As it just. You know, it becomes more normal. And even now, just recently, I heard about another friend talking behind my back, and I thought, you know what? That's all right. You know, haters gonna hate. Or, you know, it's. It's just getting better and better, but on the other side, you know, I guess I've had more anxiety, but at the same time, I've been. I've been so much more myself. I've just been. I've been. I've been so. I have a huge weight lifted off of me to the point where I even just laugh out loud, sometimes randomly, like, I cannot believe I feel so much more like the old me. But with this benefit of years and wisdom, it. It's. It's been the really the craziest experience of my life. I mean, the whole thing has. But, you know, I said I had a first paradigm shift, and so this is what I consider to be my second paradigm shift. That, you know, if. That. It doesn't matter what the temple says, because I don't think that that's what God thinks. So God doesn't see me as second class. I don't have to see myself as second class. I can do anything that. I can do anything that a man can do. You know that. I feel like I have choices for my life. I feel like I have a future. I feel like I'm not stuck in this box or in this depressing space of tension where I just feel like the whole world has opened up to me. I feel so much, so much more happiness and grounded than I have since I was a teenager. And I feel like I've come alive, really. And, you know, I see a lot of women in the church who. It wears on them, and over time, they lose their spark and they just become just kind of all the same where they're just doing the thing, trying to get to heaven, and especially as they get older. And I saw my piano, My old piano teacher the other day, and she's 75 years old, and she's not. Not a member, never been a member. And she's just full of vitality. She loves to play tennis, she loves to play the piano. She. Don't tell her she's 75 years old. You know, she has a spark. And I see Mormonism taking away that spark. And I saw it in myself. You know, it wasn't just someone else I was becoming that person.

Leaving the Church and the Disciplinary Council

John Dehlin [00:59:47] Was taking your garments off a significant or important moment for you?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [00:59:52] It was. It was. I thought, after 15 years and I was faithful in wearing my garments, I know I wasn't looking for excuses to not wear them. I thought this. I am a person who chooses the right, and this is choosing the right, and I'm going to do it, even though I don't like it. And after 15 years of wearing my garments night and day to not wear them anymore, I felt so much more like myself. I thought, how can this be possible? You know? But it was just so much more comfortable, you know, physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, just comfortable. And I felt like I was myself again, that I could be whoever I wanted to be, that I. I wasn't stuck in who I should be.

John Dehlin [01:00:37] Did it affect your posture?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:00:39] Yes, it did. A lot. I. I still sometimes find myself. If I get tense, you know, in my head, then I find myself pulling my shoulders in. But I am able to have better posture more than I ever have before. You know, about two years ago, when I started to realize that my posture was terrible, I put a reminder in my Phone every two hours, it would go off to remind me to have good posture, and I still couldn't do it. And after I've taken my garments off, my headaches have decreased dramatically. I. It was much easier for me to hold my shoulders back. And I think the majority of it is I feel good about myself even if I wear clothes that are the same as before. You know, even if I am wearing garment appropriate clothes, I am. I feel like I own myself. I am my own person.

John Dehlin [01:01:28] Right. So let's, let's talk about the, the disciplinary council stuff. And then I want to go to kind of your. Your thoughts on your life going forward. Raising kids, having a marriage, kind of after, you know, after the church in your case. So. So tell us your perspective of the disciplinary council and how it's unfolded.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:01:56] Okay. Well, for a long time, the bishop and the stake president seemed to only pay attention to Carson. I didn't get called in at all. And they met with him a few times. And Carson has been much more vocal than I have, especially on Facebook. And so that grabs their attention. And they're not happy with him for being open about problems that he sees in the church and at times why he thinks the church isn't true. So it's not really a surprise to me that he's being disciplined. I think that's kind of the status quo that you speak out. And especially if they start to feel like you are taking other people with you, then, you know, then they want you to come in.

John Dehlin [01:02:47] So do you feel like Carson was trying to take people with him?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:02:51] No. No. Carson wants people to choose their own path. And he always says, you can be inside the church, you can be outside the church. But it's not fair if people don't know the real story. It's helpful. Knowledge is power. If the glory of God is intelligence and light and truth, then we shouldn't have anything to be afraid of it. And some people, they learn things they didn't know before about the church and they decided to stay in it. And that is a legitimate choice. But Carson just wants to be open and honest. He wants other people to be able to have that. And specifically, he wants people who might be hard on doubters to realize their legitimate reasons to doubt. He wants them to see that person is not a bad person for having doubts or having problems with some parts of the church. These are real issues. So that's his main focus. And he was doing that long before we stopped attending. He was in the elders quorum presidency, and it was kind of his mission was to make people feel accepted that it's okay to come here and doubt and struggle, and you can talk to me about your struggles. And in the many ways, he became a lifeline for some of the people, especially if they couldn't talk to their spouse, that they could talk to him because he would be the scapegoat. He'd be the one that stood up and says, I don't know if the church is true. And that made people feel comfortable talking to him.

John Dehlin [01:04:16] He was also, he was one of the editors for the wiki for fair. So I mean, he was totally part of the apologists.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:04:23] For a while he tried that. And that, I think, is in his search to really do everything that he could to get a spiritual experience, to understand, to see the faith promoting twist on everything. You know, that was part of his journey. And then it got to the point where he said to Fair, why. Why are you doing it this way? You know, like, I don't feel comfortable writing up this page. That seems kind of ridiculous to me. And so he, you know, that was, it was. He didn't feel so good about apologetics after a while. He felt like it was dishonest in some ways.

John Dehlin [01:05:04] Yeah. Okay, so the, so the church leaders start giving him grief. Then what happens?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:05:10] Yeah, so they had been largely ignoring me, and the bishop sent one letter a couple months ago to the both of us. And so I wrote my own answer back. Carson wrote an answer and I wrote an answer separately. And I said, you know, I really wish that I have also stopped attending. You know, in, in September, we, we wrote a letter to our friends and family. We posted on our blog, and we explained to our parents in person.

John Dehlin [01:05:41] Okay, so it wasn't December, it was September.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:05:43] Yeah. Carson gets a little messed up on the timeline.

John Dehlin [01:05:45] Okay, my bad.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:05:47] Yeah, no, so, yeah, in. And so we, and we hadn't attended since September.

John Dehlin [01:05:53] Okay.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:05:53] So, you know, I said to the bishop, I, I have to admit that it bothers me a little bit that it seems like you're only contacting Carson and, you know, now for the first time, you've sent an email to the both of us. But I, you know, I feel like this is a problem in the church, actually. You know, that you usually go through the men, and I'm a separate person and I haven't been attending either, so. And I explained to him how I feel about the church, and he didn't write me back at all. It was two months ago and I literally haven't heard from him. Bummer. So just this week.

John Dehlin [01:06:28] Yeah. I just have to say my stake president just never wanted to hear anything from my wife ever. She was just as if she wasn't there.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:06:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:38] Yeah.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:06:41] That's sad. So just this week, for the first time, the stake president said that he wanted me to come in and. And specifically to talk about how I felt about Carson's pending excommunication. So I went in and explained that I'm totally on the same page as Carson. I said everything that you see Carson write is really from me too, because Carson kind of speaks redneck a little bit and I have to usually edit everything that he writes, you know, and I share his opinions and usually we write those things together. So I said it's, you know, you can consider that as. As being from me also. And I fully support him in everything that he's doing. So it. Quickly. I didn't expect this, I guess being that there was the first time that I met with him and. Well, first I want to say my stake president is really. Is an incredible man. He's. He was so kind and he said that I respect you. I understand what you're telling me. If I bump into you sometime, I want you to know that I don't judge you and that I consider you my friend. So I think that as far as priesthood leaders go, that he is a great person with a great heart and I'm glad it's him and not somebody else, really. So I felt comfortable talking with him. I explained everything to him. But at the end of it, this is the part that was a surprise is that he said, okay, well, then you're in the same place as Carson, that because you're being open and we feel like you're leading other people astray, then if you don't resign, then we will have to excommunicate you.

John Dehlin [01:08:39] So did he have evidence of you leading people astray?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:08:44] They. They feel that way. And I don't know what I think about this because I feel like if we wanted to really, if we really wanted to, we could call in a ton of witnesses. You know, I. I'm pretty sure. I mean, he doesn't want to break confidences, so he's not naming names, but I'm pretty sure that I know who he thinks is leaving the church or having struggles because of us. And all of those people were having struggles before. Just nobody knew about it, but we knew about it, you know, and so, and you know, we. We have a family in our stake that is. Is splitting up because of their now very different views on the church and whether or not it's true and they would like to pin that on us, but really the situation has nothing to do with us. The only way that it's even connected with us is that after they started having problems, the husband started contacting Carson and saying, man, I'm really having a hard time. I'm reading all these things, and it seems like maybe the church isn't true. And he only talked to Carson because he knew Carson was a safe place to talk to. And Carson didn't cause his struggles. He's only been a listening ear. So I feel like if we really wanted to, we could have that guy come in and explain that to the Stake Presidency and at Carson's disciplinary council, we could have a lot of people come in and say, carson's had my back for years and he didn't cause my doubts, and he's actually helped me to stay in the church. He's helped my marriage to stay together. He said, it doesn't have to be, you know, a cause for divorce. And so maybe if it was in a court of law, and maybe, and I don't know, maybe Carson will choose to do that. I don't know. But I feel like they have it set in their minds that that is how it is, that Carson is leading people astray and he's causing problems in our stake. And that since I also have been open, and maybe it was the letter that I wrote, I'm not really sure, but. But they feel like I'm right in that same boat. So the question is, do we care really? I guess, you know, I feel like we could put up a big fight and say we shouldn't be excommunicated. But on one hand, in some ways, I would like to be done with it. You know, I don't want to be coming. I want to be going in to the Stake President's office indefinitely. You know, I want to move on with my life in a lot of ways. And then also the way the church is right now, they feel like you can't say you want to be a member and also say, these are the reasons why I think the church isn't true. Right. That you can't have your cake and eat it, too. That you can't. That they feel like to do so is to be a hypocrite. And I think a lot of people want to change that, you know, that that shouldn't. That doesn't need to be the way that it is, that, you know, we can be openly critical and still say, I want to call myself a Mormon, but with the true claims of the church right now, that might be an impossibility or it might be an extreme uncomfortableness for people. But, you know, in America today, we can say, I'm an American and I think the President Obama is doing things wrong, or I think that it's not good that George Washington had slaves. You know, we can say anything we want and we can still be considered American. But that's not the case in the church today. So the question that I have is because I know that all of my friends and family that are Mormon, they feel that way, that I am hypocritical if I say I want to be a Mormon with my name on the records. And at the same time, I want to reserve the right to speak out against Mormonism and the things that I think are bad in it. So it becomes a point of personal integrity. Not really for myself, I guess, but saying this is the situation that I'm in. If I choose to speak out in that way with my name on the church, then I will be seen as a hypocrite, and that might not be worth it to me. I certainly reserve my right to say whatever I want to. You know, if it's. If it's my free speech or my membership in the church, I'm choosing free speech. So for myself, I don't like this was just last night. So I don't know exactly what I'm going to do right now, but I told my stake president that if I go in and I'm only excommunicated in front of my bishopric, then that's like the little kids excommunication. You know, it just. It doesn't appeal to me in the same way that it appeals to Carson to go in and to speak to the stake presidency and the High Council at his disciplinary council and be able to say, I think excommunication of doubters is a problem in our church, that this isn't a good solution, that this is going to be hurtful for a lot of people. I don't want to attend anymore, so it's not really hurtful for me. But. But my friends right here in the stake, they want to attend, but they don't believe. And I don't want this to be a precedent for them. So please don't excommunicate me because I don't want this to happen.

John Dehlin [01:14:39] So that's more of an argument for you resigning, because then you're not pressing the issue and you're not forcing the church's hand to do something that maybe they wouldn't do. And as long as your friends and your stake are keeping quiet and keeping to themselves, maybe they'll be left alone. But because you guys are making a big deal now, the stake presidents across the world have to go run around and ferret out the disbelievers. So why not resign? Marisa pond, Calderwood

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:15:13] well, you know, for the first time last night, I thought I might, you know, I had been. I had been saying, you know, you can't, you can't take the Mormonism out of me, right? I was. I'm Mormon. I'm Mormon in every cell of my body. So it seems unfair to kick me out of the church, you know, and if you're going to kick me out, then I'm going to go fighting. So, you know, you're going to have to bring me in for disciplinary counsel. But. It wouldn't be much of an audience. You know, it seems not worth the stress, honestly, and I don't know what I'm going to do yet. But I feel like Carson has a chance to make a change and to speak his piece. If he has a disciplinary council, I don't have that same chance. And so it might be better just to own my choice. You know, I don't believe anymore, and I haven't been attending, so maybe it's better for me to choose, you know, to say I'm going to resign instead of letting someone else make that choice for me. But, you know, it was. I have last night was the first time that I really thought that might be a good thing for me. When I was talking to the state president and I realized that many will consider it a point of personal integrity. And since I know for sure that I do want to be able to speak up and state my opinions, then resigning might be the best option for me.

John Dehlin [01:16:57] Right. Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. That's what my wife, Margi, ended up doing. And at the same time, I feel like the coercion, the pushing people into silence, all the people suffering in silence, and just regardless of the institution, this idea that an institution is above criticism, is above accountability, and is suppressing sincere expressions of challenges, I still want to fight for that. And, you know, I've said this before, resigning and going away quietly, that message gets lost, and the church gets to keep abusing people in the way that it's abusing people. And that's why I didn't want to go away quietly. But I respect that decision.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:18:00] Right. And I think that it occurred to me that they don't necessarily have to go hand in hand. Then maybe you could resign and not go away quietly. You know, I still have. 90% of my friends and family are LDS, you know, and I. And I still have an opinion, so I, you know, I can continue to speak up and state my opinion, even if I'm not a member.

John Dehlin [01:18:27] Yeah. I guess I'll say it this way. Making them excommunicate you holds them accountable. Us, you know, if we resign, then. Then that they're not held accountable for what they do, so.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:18:38] True.

John Dehlin [01:18:39] I guess you have the option of making them excommunicate you, but not attending. Yeah, that's true, but there's lots of ways to deal with this, so. So what about family? Like, are you. How are you feeling about how this might impact your parents, your siblings, your loved ones?

Family Impact and Finding Happiness Post-Mormon

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:19:10] I don't know for sure, but I think that the big impact was when we told them in person that, you know, we don't believe anymore that the church is true and we don't really want to be a part of it anymore. And in fact, that we think that it's better to raise our kids outside of it. I think that was the big blow for them. It was hard on all of our family members, and I don't know that it will be that much bigger of a thing if we are excommunicated. I think they all see it coming, and possibly some of them even think that we deserve it. So it's been a hard thing. It has. It hit me this week that we can go our whole lives trying to do what's right. Carson and me, you know, we can do our best. We can be. Try to be good people as much as we want. And some people will never understand us or think that we're good and that we just have to hold that. You know, like Dr. Fife would say, I can hold my grief and hold my dignity at the same time. And that that's just. It's an unfortunate reality and that that's something that I can hold in my heart, and it just is. So I don't like it. But I think that's the truth, that no matter what you do or how hard you try or how much you feel in your heart that you're choosing the right that some people will never understand. So I have the feeling that that's probably going to be the case with most of our family members and that it is what it is.

John Dehlin [01:21:02] Has this distance you from family?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:21:04] Yeah. You know, Carson's mom tries really hard to say, we still love you guys all the time. She texting me, we still love you guys. So I really appreciate that.

John Dehlin [01:21:16] Isn't that crazy that the people feel like they have to say that? Like, why would anyone ever stop loving?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:21:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:23] So, I mean, the psycho. There's some psychological meaning. Go ahead.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:21:27] But people do. Yeah, but people do stop loving, right?

John Dehlin [01:21:31] Yeah.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:21:31] So I. I'm. I'm grateful that, you know, she's. She's making a point that. That they're not. She's reaching out, you know, but I would say she's the only one that is really doing that and, you know, a lot. Most of our family tries to be normal Ish around us, but it's not normal. You know, it's a little weird and it's a little tense, and I think it'll get better over time, but I don't. I don't want to speak for Carson, but he. His relationship with his brother is almost dead, and I hope that that can be repaired. But his brother's been his best friend for his whole life. He's only two years younger, and he. They have some strong disagreements, and they might not be able to get over it. And so that's the worst part of it.

John Dehlin [01:22:36] Yeah. And yet is it worth it to you?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:22:44] Well, to quote a scripture, what benefitteth a man if he gain the whole world but lose his own soul? You know, that's been running through my head a lot lately. That's what I feel like. It's in reverse, that I might have lost so much of my friends and family, my community, my belief system. It hurts. It's been horribly painful. I felt like my soul has been ripped to shreds, you know, and. But, you know, that's. That's what grief is, is you lose something, you. You know, it. A part of you falls apart inside, and then you find a way to rebuild yourself, hopefully into something better without that thing that you lost. And that's what it's been. You know, I feel like I've lost that community, the belief system, that huge part of me, you know, But I also feel that potential to grow into something better now. So it seems. It seems crazy. Sometimes I think. I don't. I have lost a lot of friends. It's different with my community. Look at all of this that I've lost, and yet I'm so happy inside. You know, I feel like I might have lost the whole world, but I've gained my soul, I've gained myself back. And Carson and I are so much happier together. Than we ever have been before. And when we get along better with our kids even, and I sometimes don't even know why, but we are just so much happier. We're just closer. We have that bond. And I can't. I think when I was a tbm, I would hear people that leave the church. They think they're happy, but it's a counterfeit happiness. They'll never have true joy and happiness. And I think that's what people think of us. You know, I know the bad things that people say about us because I've said them. I've been that person, that judgmental and self righteous person. But that's one of the things that just makes me laugh sometimes. It's the opposite is true, you know, that I felt like what I had before was a hope for happiness or an attempt at happiness. And now I have the real happiness. It's mind blowing to me. It's so much better than I really ever thought that it would be. And it seems like against all odds with everything that we've been through that I'm so much happier now. It's amazing.

John Dehlin [01:25:39] And what about, you know, there are a lot of people that say, yeah, but what about the kids you're now, how are you going to raise good, righteous, moral kids without the church?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:25:48] Yeah, well, that's something that's been a bit of an eye opener for me too. I realized did I ever really think that my sense of morality came from the church or the frame that was put on me? You know, like, I don't really believe that. I believe that people do have a search for goodness within them and that definitely we can be molded and shaped by our environment. But I'm not afraid for my kids. I feel like they do have an inner moral compass and I can teach them how to use it. And so, you know, Carson and I are reading a book called Parenting Beyond Belief and the values that they talk about that you know are important to teach your children, they're awesome. I just, it makes me excited. I think our kids are going to be better than we are, you know, that I feel like they have a better chance at life. And our oldest, who's 13, he already was having enough cognitive dissonance in the church that he's so happy to be out. He's becoming even more expressive where he's saying like, you guys are great parents, you know, things that we don't expect to hear from a 13 year old. But I feel like he respects us more than he ever has. We've been very open with them about our transition and about everything that we think. We've always been that kind of parents. And that's maybe one of the biggest surprises is to find when we stressed about telling the kids, okay, guys, I think we don't really want to go to church anymore. We said, you guys can go anytime you want. But Carson and I said, how are we going to do this? When are we going to do this? We stressed about it, and then when we told them, they were kind of like, oh, yeah, that totally makes sense. And there was no big deal for them at all. And that was the surprise. We realized that we had raised them to be like secular humanists, that, you know, we had raised them to believe in goodness and humanity and in doing good. And we're not. We're not those parents that hide things from our kids, ever. All of my kids lose a belief in Santa at about 6 years old because I refuse to lie to them. And they figure it out because they're thinkers and they're questioners and, you know, so that's just one of the reasons why I love my kids even more than I ever did before. I respect them. They're always coming up with theological questions, questions about life. They're awesome. And I feel like they're going to be better people than Carson and I are.

John Dehlin [01:28:26] Well, Marisa, this has been a wonderful story, and it's so nice to hear how, in your case, you know, you went from being such a bright shining light to feeling like you had lost who you are. And I don't care whether someone finds themselves by joining a church or by leaving it. I just like to hear stories about people finding themselves. And so I'm so happy to hear your story. It makes me really happy.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:29:00] Good. Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:29:02] So I guess we'll be. I guess you guys expect to receive a letter when they seem to want

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:29:10] to do it as soon as possible. So I assume within the next couple days.

John Dehlin [01:29:14] So it's April 2, 2015. You expect within the week you'll receive a letter. Maybe we'll bring you guys back on to let us know how. How all that went.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:29:24] Sure. I'm sure there'll be a lot to talk about,

John Dehlin [01:29:29] so good luck with that and thank you for sharing your story with us. You and Carson are awesome, and I can't wait to meet you and your kids someday. And, you know, I just want listeners to know that we at Mormon Stories, at the Open Stories foundation, we're going to be working really hard to provide information, communities of support, and mental health resources for People in transition and not necessarily owning and creating those resources, but finding the best resources out there. We've long been encouraging people to talk to Jennifer Finlay and Fife or Natasha Helfer Parker or my good friend Dave Christian or Marty Erickson, who's in Orem. You know, we're really committed to getting the best mental health professionals to our listeners who need help. We're very committed to encouraging the formation of Face to Face local support communities so that people in, you know, wherever you are, whether you're in North Bend or Maple Valley or Seattle or Issaquah or Logan or Houston or Japan, we're gonna find people to help connect with you so you don't feel so alone and just know that we're gonna keep at this. And so, Marisa, we always end, you know how we end Mormon stories, right?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:31:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:03] So I hope you're ready to share with us. You know, we like to hear the equivalent of a testimony, but maybe for you, it'll be a bit of a secular one. But if you wouldn't mind leaving with our listeners just kind of your beliefs and your message of hope to those who are willing to listen.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:31:24] Okay. I believe that all people have goodness and light inside of them and that we need to be our very best selves, that we need to find what brings our light out, what gives us goodness, share the light with others and get outside of ourselves. Try to help other people to have the best life that they can have, just to put our arms around each other and to love and serve one another and to be in this life together and share our goodness. And I don't know everything else what I believe right now, but I know that I believe that.

John Dehlin [01:32:04] So love each other and support each other.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:32:06] Yes, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:32:08] You don't need much more than that, do you?

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:32:11] No. That'll make the world a better place.

John Dehlin [01:32:13] I like it short and sweet and simple. All right, Marisa. Well, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories. And good luck to you and your wonderful family.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:32:24] Thank you. Thanks for having us on, John.

John Dehlin [01:32:26] And to our listeners, thanks for joining us. If you want to ask Marisa some questions, come up to MormonStories.org just like Carson's been answering some questions on his post, maybe Marisa will answer a few questions there as well. We have some other really exciting episodes coming up. John Larsen's episode, my live interview with him is coming up soon. We have some other things in store, so thanks for all the support. Those of you who support us financially, just know that that's what allows us to do this, but you know, we're going to spend the rest of our days trying to support all of you who are trying to figure this out. So thanks for listening. Thanks again to the Calderwood, and we hope you'll join us again soon on Mormon Stories. So thanks again, Marisa.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:33:14] Thank. You.

John Dehlin [01:33:20] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org music for this episode was provided by the Lower Lights.

Marisa Pond Calderwood [01:33:45] In heart, anger or mouth, I draw

John Dehlin [01:33:54] myself apart, searching my soul.

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