Introduction and Context for the Excommunication

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello and welcome to a special edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin, and we're trying something a bit new. We're doing a video interview over Skype where I'm interviewing my subjects and we're gonna put it up on YouTube. And today we're super excited to have back with us together for the first time, Marisa and Carson Calderwood. It is currently Saturday, May 23, and two days ago on May 21 in the evening, Marisa and Carson were excommunicated from the LDS Church. And so we just want to kind of capture that story. So let's dive in. Who wants to start and kind of tell us how it happened?

Carson Calderwood [00:00:53] Go for it.

Marisa Calderwood [00:00:55] So to start off with, we asked when they said that we were both up for church discipline, we asked if we could do it together. We asked in an email and said, you know, I said I don't want the little kids excommunication like I had said before. And so I didn't really expect that they would grant that request, honestly. But they did. They said, okay, then if you want, you can be tried in front of the entire High Council and stake presidency. And they had us come in at the same time, but take turns.

Carson Calderwood [00:01:29] Yeah. There is a stipulation in the handbook of instructions that says that if you don't want to be tried by your bishop, then you can be by the stake. And so as women, you can do that, which we weren't aware of.

John Dehlin [00:01:41] That's awesome. I bet Kate would have preferred that.

Marisa Calderwood [00:01:44] Yeah, probably. And then we found after that someone said that there's a bit of a precedent for it where a couple of the women who were excommunicated in the early 90s had also said the same thing, that they would rather have the full High Council.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] Interesting. Okay, well, that's cool. So you. They let you come together. That's interesting. It seemed like when I was with my stake president, he wanted to deny any request I'd possibly make. And it sounds like with you guys, they were at least willing to kind of accommodate a little bit.

Carson Calderwood [00:02:15] Yeah, yeah. Like the. Our stake president, like we still feel, and we'll get into this later on, but he's a super nice guy and he was very accommodating and he tried to make it as amiable of a situation as he could, which we appreciated.

John Dehlin [00:02:32] That's nice. Okay, so you got the go ahead to go together. What happened next?

The Council Meeting Begins

Carson Calderwood [00:02:39] So he invited us in at 7:30 because it officially started at 8 and he wanted to talk to us Together kind of a little bit to tell what was happening. And basically, we only.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] Was there a crowd in the parking lot when he got there?

Marisa Calderwood [00:02:51] Yeah, yeah. So we got there about 10 minutes early, and there were maybe about 20 people there. And then I think about 10 more people showed up after we went in.

Carson Calderwood [00:03:03] And some people left early, and some people came late, and there was probably about 45 people total that showed up, which is amazing. We're like 45 minutes from Seattle out in the states, and I couldn't believe that many people came.

Marisa Calderwood [00:03:14] Yeah, people drove up from central Washington a couple hours. People drove from north Seattle area an hour and a half. It was impressive, you know, and I think that people really wanted to be there, that they were really happy to support. It was awesome.

John Dehlin [00:03:30] That's so cool. So what percentage did you know versus not know?

Marisa Calderwood [00:03:34] We maybe knew? 25 to 30%. Yeah. It was maybe in real life, really just a few friends and then a ton of strangers. You know, people that we had. Maybe like a couple people we had met once at the, like, the Seattle coffee meetup and then.

Carson Calderwood [00:03:53] Or at Sunstone Northwest last February.

Marisa Calderwood [00:03:55] Yeah. Yeah. And then quite a few people that we had never met at all.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] So shout out to those who showed up. That's just so awesome. I went to bed Thursday night so happy that there was a crowd gathered. It made me super happy.

Marisa Calderwood [00:04:08] Yeah, it made us feel really supported, like we weren't really doing it alone. And they did have a couple from another stake who are involved in church public affairs who stayed in the lobby, and they monitored. I guess they passed out muffins. They had, like, a flat of Costco muffins. So we were a little surprised. I mean, pleasantly surprised. And they passed out water bottles, but they said that no one can come in to use the bathrooms in the building. So that's part of the reason why some of the people only stayed part of the time, because it wound up going four hours. So we had reserved a room at the pizza place that was close and so people could go over there and use the bathroom and get something to eat. So it wound up working out well in that way. But there was. They locked all the doors, and they had those, you know, the public affairs people sitting in the lobby to kind of make sure that nothing bad happened.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] Okay, so you guys pass the crowd and then you go inside. What happened then?

Carson Calderwood [00:05:10] Yeah, so he. The stake president, talked to us, and he's like, I don't really want to debate doctrinal points. And I'm like, you know, neither do We. Because we had never really done that much anyway, and we did ask. He started to read off the four reasons why someone could be an apostate. And I kind of interrupted. And I'm like, you know, I've looked at those before as well. It's like two through three really don't apply to us. Right. And he said he agreed. And it was mainly just number one, which I wish I could have right here to read. But basically it was, you're against the. You're against the.

John Dehlin [00:05:44] It's like fighting against the Brethren or the Church or, you know, the leadership.

Carson Calderwood [00:05:49] Yeah. And I asked for some clarification. I'm like, so let's say that you give a state conference, and you say, we shouldn't watch Radar movies. The prophet told us not to. And I go out and watch Radar movie, and I post on Facebook and say, this movie was awesome. Everybody should go watch it. And he tells me, brother Calderwood, we're not supposed to do that. And I go and do it again. I'm like, technically, by that definition, that's apostasy. I'm acting repeatedly against the council of my priesthood leaders. And he's like. So I'm like, you know, what's the difference? Where's the. I just want clarification on where the line is and stuff. And he's like, well, that's not apostasy in my book, because that's not, like, a core doctrine of the church. It's not Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, the prophet. And he said, because you guys have stated publicly that you don't have a belief in the Book of Mormon, then that's why you're apostates. And I'm like, okay, that's true. And I'm like, what about the difference between. I could say I don't believe. I could say you shouldn't believe, and I could go out and be telling people why it's not true and they shouldn't. I'm like, there's, like, differences there. And he says, yeah, any of that. If you say, I don't believe publicly in the Book of Mormon or Jesus Christ, then you are an apostate. And it was a little shocking, but we couldn't deny that. If that's the definition we're going to work with, then we agreed we're apostates by that definition because we have publicly stated we don't have a belief in that.

John Dehlin [00:07:14] So was this in the room before you went in, or is this after you went in? Okay, so you're having A discussion beforehand about the definition of apostasy and whether you qualify.

Carson Calderwood [00:07:23] Exactly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] Was it just him or did he have a.

Carson Calderwood [00:07:25] Just him.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] Okay. All right. How did he feel? Was he being nice?

Carson Calderwood [00:07:30] Yeah, he was. He was distraught. You know, I told him actually his hands were shaking really bad when he came out to shake our hands. And he's such a good guy. He does love us. He has said at times, like, he understands that we're trying to do what we feel is right, and he kind of respects us for trying to help people that suffer. But he just feels, like I said in that one blog post, that it's just. It's not how the Brethren are doing it, so it can't be done that way, which really is the crux of what I tried to say later on that we'll get into, to kind of deal with that. But he was. He said later on it was the hardest thing that he's done. So I felt bad for him.

John Dehlin [00:08:08] How were you feeling, Marisa?

Marisa Calderwood [00:08:11] I felt mostly good. Just nervous. You know, I felt like I'm prepared. I know what I want to say, and it's gonna be fine. Just that actually being there and in still somewhat of an intimidating situation, you know, I just couldn't stop my leg from shaking. Like, I just was nervous.

John Dehlin [00:08:33] Yeah. Okay. So what was it like to go into the big room?

Carson Calderwood [00:08:38] That was shockingly intimidating. You know, I'm a big dude, but, like, the guy they had. I don't know his name, the guy that had do the door was, like, really tall, taller than me. I'm six four. He was taller than me, and he had this really stern face. And he opens the door and we walk in and there's basically 16 guys all in suits, standing up because, you know, the presidency, the 12 high counselors, and the stake executive secretary to take notes. And I didn't know as many. I thought I'd know more.

Marisa Calderwood [00:09:05] They've had a big turnover in the High Council recently. And it just. A lot of guys we didn't know,

Carson Calderwood [00:09:10] and it's just that long table that they're all sitting there and it was

Marisa Calderwood [00:09:13] like, all in the black suits. And Carson, on purpose, didn't wear a black suit. He wore a shirt and tie and a vest, but. And then I was in a dress, so.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] You guys look fabulous, by the way. That footage is, like, gq, GQ worthy.

Carson Calderwood [00:09:29] It was nice. We wanted to tow that middle line between, you know, we obviously didn't want to be offensive.

Marisa Calderwood [00:09:34] Right.

Carson Calderwood [00:09:36] But I didn't want to look like a sheep either. So I wanted to be authentic in a respectable way. I felt like I did the same thing.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] I wore, like, a blue shirt and a blazer, but no tie.

Carson Calderwood [00:09:46] Yeah.

Marisa Calderwood [00:09:46] Yeah.

Carson Calderwood [00:09:47] So it was. They. They came in, we sat down, and the chairs were against the wall, like, about four feet away from the table. And we're like, look at each other. And we grabbed them and pulled them up. We're like, you know, we're part of this conversation. We, like, wanted to, I don't know, establish ourselves as a little bit having some authority in our position, that we were there for a reason and we're not just, you know, to be subjugated, for lack of a better phrase.

Marisa Calderwood [00:10:09] It felt awkward to not be sitting close to the table.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] So you scooted up.

Marisa Calderwood [00:10:13] So we screwed it up to the table. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] Good for you.

Carson Calderwood [00:10:16] All right, so we. The stake president started. He just started talking out. He. I don't know exactly what he said, but it was basically. Or he was the only one that spoke the entire time. No one else ever said any word

Marisa Calderwood [00:10:30] while we were in the room.

Carson Calderwood [00:10:31] While we were in the room. Yeah. And so it was just us or him. So he started speaking. He said, I brought you here for apostasy. And he started to go over the things of apostasy, or he reread that definition and agreed that two through four don't account. One does. And he had a big folder of things that we had said on our blog or on Facebook and stuff. And he's like, I got lots of documentation here. We're not going to go through all of it, but these are some of the things you've said. Anything. He started off saying like, that you believe. And he questioned us, do you believe the Book of Mormon to be a fraud? And I was like. I'm like, I don't like that word. It's too negative, too mean. I don't believe the Book of Mormon to be true. I don't believe there are actual Nephites and Lamanites, but there's good stuff in there. Maybe even some of the words in there could be inspired. But to me, it's not a literal historical document. So just saying fraud feels too harsh and negative. And basically every statement, I'm like, and I don't think I really ever said fraud. And he didn't say that I did. I think he was taking what I had written, combining it into a sentence, and trying to say, you believe the Book of Mormon is a fraud. So there was a little discussion back and forth on the various points of us trying to nuance it, basically.

Marisa Calderwood [00:11:41] And he made sure to ask Carson and then myself. Separately and distinctly.

John Dehlin [00:11:47] Right. And that's interesting because Jeffrey R. Holland stated in his interview with Helen Whitney for the PBS documentary the Mormons, we're not going to invite people out of the church if they can't believe the Book of Mormons. Historical.

Carson Calderwood [00:12:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:02] So it's weird that that's being used as a criteria.

Carson Calderwood [00:12:05] Yeah, it was sad. There's a lot of things like that. We felt like it was. We presented proof or evidence that should say this shouldn't happen. And it still did, which is why it was disappointing. But he. So after he got done with those things, he asked Marisa, he's like, what other things?

Marisa Calderwood [00:12:26] So that the church is God's one true church on the earth, that President Monson is a prophet of God and that the. The Bible and the Doctrine and Covenants are books of scripture. I think that was it. I think kind of the four main points, and there might have been that Joseph Smith restored the gospel.

Carson Calderwood [00:12:45] Yeah. I don't know if he said that either.

Marisa Calderwood [00:12:47] Yeah.

Carson Calderwood [00:12:48] But it was like with Jesus Christ. That's the only area where we probably differ too much. We're pretty unified on most things. I said can't deny that Jesus existed. History seems to say that. But I don't believe he was born through. Through a virgin woman from God. I believe he lived. He might have performed some miracles, but I don't believe he is exactly as we're taught in the church. So again, I tried to nuance it and I said, I love the idea. I asked myself, what would Jesus do, even though I don't believe he's the Son of God, because that's great. If I could be more Christlike, then that makes me a better, happier person. And so I think a few of the things that I said like that, it was a little bit like they didn't like that they wanted it to be black and white. And I kept trying to nuance it because that's the truth. You know, it's not a black and white issue. These are. There's gradations on belief on these things, even with active members. And I kind of wanted to get that across.

Marisa Calderwood [00:13:45] Yeah. And I said the question that they had asked is if we believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah. And so I said, I believe. I agree with Carson with what he said, that I don't believe that Christ was born from a virgin. A lot of those, you know, things like that. But that I have a hope for Christ as the Messiah. And That I don't. Like. I really don't know what I think about it right now. And that's. That's really all that I can say is that. That it's a. It's a possibility and it sounds nice in a lot of ways. So I just have a slightly different view of that.

Carson Calderwood [00:14:19] More hope probably, than I do.

Marisa Calderwood [00:14:21] Right?

Carson Calderwood [00:14:21] Yeah. So then when he got done asking those questions, he said, okay, we're going to focus on Carson's apostasy now. Marisa, you can go out and wait. And she's like, well, I'd rather stay. Is that possible? And that's when they said, yeah, you can. So she sat there and basically he's like, all right, Carson, it's your turn to speak. And I said, I'm just going to be 10 or 15 minutes. I don't want to speak for a long time. I'm not going to debate any historical facts or anything. I just want to present a case to you why I shouldn't be excommunicated. And I felt a little silly doing this and saying this, but I actually have five handouts to give all you guys. So I brought 15 sheets of all five of my handouts. And it was a little awkward because I didn't want to take an authoritarian position in there because I know that everything I do, they're going to see through the lens of bad person. If I, like, had frustration, oh, it's because he's lost the spirit. If I have authority, oh, he's so prideful. He thinks he's better. And so I really wanted to, like, be authentic without giving him anything that would make them have something they could interpret as negative. So I had the first handout, and I said, these are, like. Some of these things might be a little awkward and negative to read, but this is all truthful. And I'm like, I. I can promise you, the people who know me know that I put thousands of hours of research into this for several years. And actually, sorry, I gotta go back. Before I got to that point, I had to tell my story a little bit for about two minutes. So I said basically about how my whole life growing up, you're told if you pray about the Book of Mormon, Moroni's promise, you'll feel the spirit and know that it's true. And I tried that several times. There's even a couple times where I literally prayed for an hour, like never having a testimony. I remember as a teenager, I'm going to pray for an hour tonight. So I sat on my knees and Prayed literally for an hour without falling asleep, you know, and did it a few times, thinking maybe since I haven't got the answer from the regular prayer, maybe doing that kind of prayer will work. And I shared all that and said I'd feel feelings of the spirit when I would do good, but never when I prayed about the Book of Mormon, never when I prayed about the church. And even sometimes I'd feel it talking about God. And then I'd feel those same feelings when I watch some movie about people coming together to fight aliens. And I'm like, that was so conflicting. Why am I feeling it when I'm watching this movie and not reading, talking about or praying about the Book of Mormon? And that conflict that created in me caused me feel like I was broken. And I felt really sad for years because of that. And then I'd get judged from people when I would try and mention that a little bit and talk to them. And I'm like, that hurt me for years. And actually, I broke down crying when I started to say, when I started talking about the judgment and the hurt that I felt. And I wasn't expecting that. And it kind of caught me off guard, and I couldn't even talk.

John Dehlin [00:17:10] Was he sweet, Marisa?

Marisa Calderwood [00:17:12] Yeah, it was a shock to me. You know, I don't do that. He doesn't really ever cry, but it was good.

Carson Calderwood [00:17:20] They felt it, you know, they felt that spirit, they felt that connection, and they. And I could see them soft. Well, all but one guy.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] It was your King Abinadi moment, right?

Carson Calderwood [00:17:30] Exactly, Exactly. And everyone in there was really awesome except for one guy. And all of the witnesses all agreed. There was one guy in there that was pretty negative the whole time. You can't speak. But, like, when I would say things, you. He would, I think without knowing it, roll his eyes. He'd, like, look away, look down. And it bothered me because it was detracting from the feeling of love and compassion that I was getting for everyone else. And that kind of hurt. But so I said that, and I'm like, that made me a very. I feel like. Made me an extra empathetic person. I see the pain that others have when they come across these doubts. And I see person A will judge person B for having doubts and say, you're a bad person, you must be sinning. And actually, I gave an example. Someone once told me that I must be having an affair because Joseph Smith said, the people who are searching for a sign are adulterers. And therefore, since I don't have a testimony or I'm lying about it or I'm fooled and I'm looking for a sign. It's because I'm an adulterer. And I shared a couple things like that the judgment that you get in the church when you have these doubts. And I'm like, so I share talk about these issues so that person A can see that person B has legitimate concerns over. These are real historical facts. You know, if a 35 year old man marries a 14 year old girl, that's not good in anybody's book. And that's going to cause you pain obviously. And so I also wanted person A to know that person B wasn't a bad person so that wouldn't, they wouldn't have that tension there. And so that's why I share these things. Not to hurt the church, but to help there be less pain and suffering because that resonates with me and it breaks my heart to see other people suffer like I had for years. And so I'm like, so because of that, that's my motivation for doing what I do. And I said, I'm going to make a case here for you guys to why doing what I do is what we all should do. And so the first handout was quotes. It was a one page document of quotes from prophets and apostles only saying that we can't blindly follow them. And each name was highlighted. So they saw Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Bruce R. McConkie. And a lot of, we don't know about a lot of those quotes because a lot of times we hear the other side of the story when the prophet speaks, the thinking's been done, we have conflicting quotes from the brethren. And so I pulled out all the ones that argue that point and I hand out a second paper which was a bunch of really obviously not godly things that the prophets and apostles have done that we have primary sources for, like the example. And I said, you know, like this is going to be hurtful and you might not believe me on this, but like Brigham Young said, if you had a child with a black woman, you would have to kill your mixed race seed and your black wife to atone for the sins of mixing your seed with the race of the African American race. And I'm like, none of you guys here think that's from God, right? And no one shook their head yes. And I'm like, that's the type of thing that mistakes that our prophets can make, even though they're great men, they can make mistakes like that. So that's why we can't blindly Follow them. And I pulled out document three, handed it around, and it was examples of why. Because of that, we have to think for ourselves. We have to talk with God, communicate with him, decide what we feel is right. And then the fourth one, which is like, the big kicker, I feel like, was a list of all the programs in the church that were started with a grassroots movement. And it's pretty much 90% of the programs that we have in the church. And a lot of them you can actually find. Elder Clayton Christensen in 2009, so, like, six years ago, gave a talk in Boston about all that, and he said in there, and I told him this, he said, you, members need to not wait for the Brethren to tell you what to do. You need to go out and find ways to help people to make this world a better place. Use the Spirit to do that, and then the Brethren will use the Spirit to figure out which of those things we need to apply to everybody. And so I said, we need to be that stake. We need to do this grassroots movement where we don't make people feel bad for having doubts, and we help there be greater love. And I said, there's a stake in Seattle that's been very pro lgbtq, and they've had meetings to invite LGBTQ people in to talk about it, and it's had an awesome effect. And the Brethren have sent people to go and check it out because they've seen how good it's been. I'm like, we need to be that stake for the doubt issues, and we can. We have the prophets and apostles right here telling us we need to do that. And he's saying, don't wait for the Brethren to tell you what to do. We have to do it. And I kind of rested my case on that. I said, let's be that stake. Let's be more Christlike. Let's increase the love and the understanding in the world. And that's what I'm trying to do. And kind of left it at that.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] And no response. Right. They were just quiet.

Carson Calderwood [00:22:01] Yeah. So he's like, thank you. And Marisa, no, it's your turn.

John Dehlin [00:22:05] Did they have witnesses come in?

Carson Calderwood [00:22:07] Yeah, we had our three that we. That came in after us, and they had one that was our bishop.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] Did they let you listen to the witnesses?

Carson Calderwood [00:22:16] Nope. And I actually didn't want to because they were going to talk about me, and I didn't want to be there so they wouldn't feel influenced.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] I got to hear my witnesses, and that was really powerful. It made it all worthwhile because it was such a negative experience, but.

Carson Calderwood [00:22:29] Yeah, well, we did last. Last night. We hung out with all of our. The witnesses, and they all shared with what they shared, and holy cow, it was. It was powerful.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] Did they. Okay, go ahead, Marisa. And then we'll come back to that.

Marisa Calderwood [00:22:42] Okay. So I felt like. I mean, I was already nervous, but it was just so somber. I mean, just hardly anybody could even crack a smile, and they just were. I'm just so incredibly serious, you know? And so I tried to lighten up the mood a little bit. It didn't work, I don't think. But I just said. I said so. I don't have any handouts, and I don't have any witnesses. You know, I just want to say a few words. And I said, I fully support Carson everything that he says and everything that he writes and what he just said, but I don't have that same experience. You know, I wasn't that person who felt like I was a bad person for decades because I didn't, like, have a sure knowledge that the church was true. I thought I did have a sure knowledge that the church was true. You know, I was that teenager that got up and fastened testimony meeting, and I, you know, almost pounded the pulpit saying that this church is the church of God. And I was, you know, fairly dogmatic and very, very sure of myself. So I was. I had a very different experience. And I have seen over the years Carson and how he's felt about it, and then really, that's opened it up to have a lot of other people that we know that will share that with us and see how painful it is for all of them. So I've seen how it is for other people. And I explained a little bit about that. I come from, like, pioneer stock background. I was raised on the BYU fight song that I didn't even apply to any other college but BYU Provo. You know, I said I was just Mormon in every cell of my body, and there was no. I was sure of it. I went, you know, I was a seminary graduate and an institute graduate, and I thought I knew everything about the gospel, and it all made sense to me. I felt really good about it. Where'd you just move my notes?

Carson Calderwood [00:24:37] Sorry.

Marisa Calderwood [00:24:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:24:45] Carson's dinking around, messing up.

Carson Calderwood [00:24:46] He is.

Marisa Calderwood [00:24:47] He can't.

Carson Calderwood [00:24:47] He's looking over there the whole time. So I want to move it over to you so she can.

Marisa Calderwood [00:24:50] He can't keep his hands off the mouse. Psychic compulsion. Okay. So I said, as I said in my previous Mormon Stories interview, that over the years talking to Carson about different difficult subjects in the church. I tried to put a faith promoting spin on all of it. And then after he had said it was just too painful for him to go to church anymore, then it really forced me to figure out what I thought about it. And as soon as I allowed myself to think, what if the church isn't true? Then it all came together, it all made sense and it was extremely painful. And that's. I wanted to get across to them. This is the person that you are, that is in this horribly painful situation. When you see people in your congregations that are doubting. This is not this. It's not this prideful thing or this easy thing for anyone. I explained how I couldn't eat and I lost ten pounds and I was already thin, how I couldn't sleep at night. I felt like I was absolutely shattered. And I said, this is the state that people are in when they are going through a faith crisis. And so I said I felt betrayed that as a seminary and institute graduate that I had been taught so many half truths and that so much of the whole story was kept from me. And this is unfair. This is a bad thing that we're doing to people in the church. And it's coming out in a lot of now people are disbelieving that they're not able.

Carson Calderwood [00:26:17] We clarified that we don't feel like this is bad, people having faith crises. This is the church having a truth crisis that is creating the faith crises in people.

Marisa Calderwood [00:26:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:28] Because people are either being misled or not getting the full story.

Carson Calderwood [00:26:31] Yeah. It's not their fault.

Marisa Calderwood [00:26:33] Yeah. So I recounted how I felt like it was important to stand for truth and righteousness. And I realized that I'm still that person. I'm still standing for truth and righteousness. But unfortunately, so much of what I'm now seeing in the church is not truth, sometimes not righteousness. So I said, but still, I didn't want to resign from the church. I wanted to retain my membership because it would hurt my family. And also, I am a Mormon. I've always been a Mormon. It's been, you know, the number one part of my identity. When I was an eight year old girl, I was excited to be baptized. And I still respect that. And you don't need to take that away from me. I said, my temple marriage is the only wedding that I've ever had. So you don't need to take that away from me because I no longer believe. I said, there's room for this church, for everyone, that keeping Your doubts to yourself is a secret, and that's not healthy. And I've watched people slowly die inside because they can't tell that secret. And it's not good. And we shouldn't be doing that. We have room for those people in the church. We have room for people that state their disbelief. You don't have to agree with them, you just have to love them. And that's what I ended with.

Making the Case Against Excommunication

Carson Calderwood [00:27:41] And I.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] Did you get emotional, Marisa?

Marisa Calderwood [00:27:44] No, I am the more emotional of the two of us, but I kind of get into the zone when I'm public speaking, and I never do.

Carson Calderwood [00:27:53] She gets a little fired up, too. And it didn't come across angry at all. It came across very confident and powerful. Awesome. I had realized. I looked over my notes when she was talking and realized I'd forgotten. A really. One really important thing I wanted to share was in Alma, chapter 30, verses 9 and 11, that say the people in the Book of Mormon, they would only punish people for crimes. And it said, we will not punish people for their beliefs or lack of beliefs. And I read that to them and left it there, you know, like, left it hanging. I'm like, basically, if we're going to go with what the Book of Mormon says, we can't punish people for lack of belief. So it was. I think it was pretty powerful. That's the last thing that was said when we walked out of the room, that if they're going to do that, they're going to go against the Book of Mormon. They're going to go against all these statements from the brethren that I've shared, and they're going to excommunicate us because of this cultural belief, not because of all the statements from the Scriptures and the brethren. And I know they all felt it. And we'll get into this later when we talk about what the Witness is. But I know they could feel it. They know that we were doing good and we were being Christlike and what our motivation is, not anything bad. And I said, if this church is true with me talking about these difficult issues, that's truth. And if the church is true, it can handle it. And we need to do that because we can't hide it anymore. The fifth document was one of just citations for all these bad things. And actually, I said, I don't want to share this because I don't feel like it's right. Actually, right now I think I've got my point across. I left it there on the table. And when we came back in later on, they were they actually handed them out and looked at him. But I felt like I got my point across without having to go slightly negative. And that felt slightly negative to share more of the facts of bad things that happened in the church, because they know that I think is there, and they were able to get the point without that.

John Dehlin [00:29:54] Okay, all right, so what happened next?

Carson Calderwood [00:29:57] So we left, and they. It was time for the witnesses, and they wanted to witnesses one at a time. So the first witness, a really good friend named Jeremy, he's a very strong believer. He's, like, known as the biggest smiling guy in the entire stake. And the stake president even said that when he walked in there, his wife left the church because she felt like there wasn't enough Christ in it. She was a convert, and it wore on her too much. And she's like, I need more Christ, and I'm not finding it here. And tried to tell everyone, let's change it so there could be more Christ, and it wouldn't happen. So she left, stopped being Mormon, independent of Marisa, and they actually came together after she had those issues and kind of bonded on some of the frustrations. So Jeremy was really traumatized and confused and frustrated, you know, when his wife was going through that and he actually read the CES letter and it kind of rocked him. And he's like, confused, didn't know what to do. And I reached out to him and I said, jeremy, I understand how painful that can be. You don't have to, like, make a decision now. Just look for things that are good and hold on to those good things. I didn't tell him to leave anything like that. And that actually caused more problems for him because he's like, why is nobody in the church reaching out? Everybody knows what I'm going through, and nobody is reaching out to me. The only person reaching out to me is the guy who said he left the church because he doesn't believe in it. And that really rocked his world. He's like, the Christ, like, supposed Christ, like, organization is not being Christlike. And the guy who left the church, and therefore you would assume when you're in the church that he's not Christ, like, is the one who's being that way. And that caused a lot of problem for him. So he just basically went in, shared that, spoke for two minutes and just shared that point. He's like, carson is. And actually they asked each one, do you want to witness against his charge of apostasy or witness for his character? And all three of them chose. They're like, we can't deny by the definition of apostasy that he's an apostate. We're going to witness against, for his character, that he's a good person doing good things. So two minutes, and then he walked out. And our next friend, Nate Hess, he is the Elders Quorum president right now. And I served with him for a couple years, a year and a half, whatever.

Marisa Calderwood [00:32:03] And that's my counselor in the Elders Quorum presidency.

Carson Calderwood [00:32:06] That was my calling. When I got kicked out, basically because I support ordained women, they took my temple recommend away. And since the state calling. You can't have a state calling without a temple recommend. So I lost my calling, too, which, ironically, now you can't do that anymore. But Nate went in and said he gave a very strong. And they'll write this up later on because it was 17 minutes for him and 30 minutes for the other witness of what they all said. But the gist of it was Carson has been helping tons of people and making a big change in our ward with doing the things that he was doing for years. He helped a lot of people stay in, and he was always open about his doubts and disbeliefs, yet he helped people stay in the church and have happiness in a way that I couldn't reach out to them in a way that you guys couldn't reach out to them. And that I think that because of that, we need to let people be like Carson. That's a void that is not getting taken care of. And if we kick him out and we don't do what he's doing, people are going to continue to suffer, and we're going to lose more people than we can keep.

Marisa Calderwood [00:33:10] And something he said at the end that I thought was really, really powerful is he said, you guys can all go back to your wards. And none of them were in our ward, none of those high counselors. And, you know, you guys can go back and. But I am the one that is here picking up the pieces in my Elders Quorum. And, you know, I'm the one that now has to deal with if the Calderwood are excommunicated, what that means for all those people who have been doubting for years and who are really on the fence about staying in the church, and now I'm left with that.

Carson Calderwood [00:33:45] It's pretty powerful. And then. So he left.

John Dehlin [00:33:49] That's really courageous of him to do that.

Carson Calderwood [00:33:51] Yeah, he's. You know, these friends of mine, they're like, I love them so much more now than I did before. You know, they were good friends before, but man, to stick up for us and what's right and put their images on the line when they know they're gonna get judged harshly and stuff. It was. I love them a lot. It means a lot to them.

Marisa Calderwood [00:34:09] They said they can already feel just over the past few months that they've been basically sympathizers of the apostates, that they say people look at them differently

Carson Calderwood [00:34:19] and treat them differently.

Marisa Calderwood [00:34:20] And, you know, one was the high priest group leader, and one was the elders quorum president. And they're still in their callings, and they still go to church every single Sunday, but people are looking at them differently.

John Dehlin [00:34:29] That's too bad.

Carson Calderwood [00:34:31] So the third guy, Aaron Tyler, went in, and he was the high priest group leader until recently. He actually asked to be released because he couldn't. He said he can't handle it anymore with the tensions that this is creating. Because he's like. One of his points was when he was in there, he's like the. I don't want to throw the bishop under the bus because he's a nice guy, but he is a very black and white. You just have a problem. You pray more and you read more. And that was his answer to everybody, every time, every place. And because he's trying to help, and that's what he thinks is the way to help. And Aaron, the high priest group leader, said that him as the high priest group leader, elders quorum president, and the Relief Society president in the meetings were all saying, we have a problem. This is not working. We got to stop telling people to read more and pray more because it's pushing them away. It's not helping them. And he heard that, but he kept doing it, and the state kept doing it, too. And so Aaron said, you guys aren't seeing how this isn't working. And what Carson was doing was working. And he kind of went through my history again. He said, I knew Carson for. We've known each other for over 10 years. He's like. He's been telling me for over a decade that there are these issues. And I would tell him, and you guys would tell him that he was wrong, and he would always be nice and respond back with like, all right, well, that's kind of how I feel. And he wouldn't be a jerk to us about us being wrong when he knew he was right because he'd done the research, and we told him to read more when he'd read more than any of us and maybe more than all of us put together and then come to find out the church Releases the essays. And Carson was right all along on all these issues. He's like, that was terrible. And our friend Christy, that Jeremy's wife, that left the church because there wasn't enough Christ in it. He said that she opened his eyes to see that that was actually true. To drop the pride and the I know what's right. And he realized there wasn't enough Christ. And that allowed him to listen to me and start to deal with issue. He started with blacks in the priesthood, and he went and read it, and he's like, holy crap. Carson was right all this time that there were things that were difficult and it kind of rocked his world. And he said, having been through that myself, he understood a little more the tensions that happen when you have the faith crisis. Even though he stayed in and he's come to resolution on that, he got the point across of how terrible it is. And he said so. He made two points. Fill me in if I missed anything. But basically, because what Carson was doing was working and what all of us were doing wasn't working, we can't excommunicate him. We have to be like that to do this. And then the second point was, even if you think he should be excommunicated, you guys, me, we're all responsible for Carson leaving the church because we made the environment too toxic for him. He tried to stay in for years, and he's like, I respect Carson. It feels uncomfortable to say this because they were talking so highly of me, but they're like, carson, I couldn't have done what Carson did. I couldn't have stayed in and been positive for all those years when everyone was saying, you're bad and you're wrong. And he says, I wouldn't have lasted like Carson did. And I feel so bad. We're responsible for making that too toxic for Carson. We kicked Carson out of the church, and if we excommunicate him, we're excommunicating him for something that we did, and that's on us. And he walked out with that. And so they heard those three witnesses. They heard me put forth the argument that the prophets and apostles have evidence that we should do what I'm doing instead of drawing lines and pushing people out and judging. They all gave witness that what I've done has helped, and what they've done hasn't helped. And they all. And everyone said, all three witnesses said that they could see it resonated with everybody, that they were, like, nodding their heads and they were emotional and they were softening, except for that one guy, and that we all actually thought, they're not going to do it. We kind of had the hope at that point that it's not going to happen.

Deliberation and the Final Decision

Marisa Calderwood [00:38:16] So they deliberated for a while and then brought us in. And we thought they were done, but they said that they just wanted to ask us a question. And so they asked.

Carson Calderwood [00:38:28] I think that they were like, okay, they sensed that, like, I don't want to excommunicate them. If they can be repentant, let's not excommunicate them. If they're not, we'll excommunicate them. I think that's the conclusion they'd come to.

Marisa Calderwood [00:38:41] Yeah. At that point. So they asked, if we were to retain our membership in the church, what, if anything, would change? And Carson answered first.

Carson Calderwood [00:38:52] I said. I was, like, confused. I was like, whoa. I was not expecting this. I thought about it. I'm like, nothing is going to change. I'll keep being like, I am. And I kind of pointed the papers again. I'm like, this is the truth. And they're like, well, would you submit to your bishop on things you're going to say in public about how to do it?

Marisa Calderwood [00:39:14] And I was like, would you allow the bishop and the Stake presidency to counsel you on the things that you put forth?

Carson Calderwood [00:39:20] I had a really hard time saying. Not saying, oh, hell no. I was like, there's no way in heck I'm gonna do that. But obviously that would.

Marisa Calderwood [00:39:26] They were asking if they could censor him.

Carson Calderwood [00:39:28] Yeah.

Marisa Calderwood [00:39:29] And when it came, when they explained it that way, then it was like, absolutely nothing.

Carson Calderwood [00:39:33] And I actually got a little frustrated, and I said I might change my ideas on the interpretations of some of these historical things that happened. I'm definitely open to that. But I am not going to change my morality, compromise my integrity on thinking that the truth has nothing to fear. The truth will set us free. And if the church is true, it therefore has nothing to fear as well. So let's deal with these things instead of hiding them. And I will not compromise on that. I'm not going to change. And I got, like, a little bit of intensity in my voice. And then when Reese has spoken after, I'm like, you know, I want to say. I want to apologize for the frustration I had before because I knew they were going to see, like, see, he's lost his spirit. And I'm like, it's hard for me to not be frustrated when I see so many people suffering and they don't have to. We could just be a little more Christlike. And open, and they wouldn't have to suffer like this. And it's really frustrating for me to hear that and feel that. And then that's kind of where we ended. But that was after Marisa spoke.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] What did you say, Marisa?

Marisa Calderwood [00:40:33] I just said, you know, I already try to be respectful of the church, even if I disagree with it, because my friends and family are still in it and because I grew up with it, like I explained. So I don't think that being a member or not being a member would change that. That I'm still going to have a. Like, a level of respect for the church in my statements, but that I am going to continue saying what I think either way.

Carson Calderwood [00:40:58] And I guess I did say that if I lose my membership, I will feel the freedom to be more open and honest in exactly how I feel. So I didn't want to throw it down as a challenge, but I'm like, that's the truth. I actually am filtering a little more because I still am a member, but if you kick me out, then it's like I'm not gonna be as filtered as I otherwise would have been.

John Dehlin [00:41:19] Okay, so then what?

Marisa Calderwood [00:41:22] So then we waited for probably another hour, right? It was a long, long time. And, I mean, we got so bored. We were talking about, like, financial markets.

Carson Calderwood [00:41:37] It was really boring, but. And I was getting sleepy because we've been up.

Marisa Calderwood [00:41:40] It was almost midnight.

Carson Calderwood [00:41:41] Yeah. And so they invite us in at about 11:35, 11:40, and they set us down. And the stake president, he looked to me like he had been, like, sobbing. Like, his face was just so. Like someone. You can tell when someone's been crying and you walk in. He looked like that. And I was like, oh, man. I knew it was hard having it take a long time. I'm like, they struggled. Like, I know we pressured, and that's the problem. That's why, like, we have been such an issue, is because they know we're good people trying to do good things. And it creates such a conflict for them to kick someone out for being good and doing good. And I know that that was conflicting for them. And so he sat down and he said. And I actually got a little irritated for the first time. He said, we find you in a state of apostasy. I don't remember exactly what he said, but he's like, you are. You want to tell Jesus Christ how to run Jesus Christ's church? And I was like. I interrupted him, and I'm like, that's not true. I feel like we, the people and The Brethren could change the way we are doing things to help be more Christ like. And I was really, really pissed off because it's like every single frickin thing I said. And all the witnesses weren't saying we're telling Jesus Christ how to run the church. We're saying we're using the words of the brethren. They're telling us what we need to do to be more like Christ. And the fact that he said that, like, I'm like, I feel like he didn't listen, but I know that he did. And so I was like, I think this exemplifies perfectly how this system makes good people feel pressured to do bad things to other good people. It's like he's a great man and he struggled mightily with that decision because he knew in his heart it wasn't the right thing to do. I really feel that he knew it, shouldn't have done it, but he feels that if that's what the Brethren is saying, even though we have the quotes doing the other stuff, we need to keep all these doubts in the closet. And because we don't say we don't believe, that's opening the door for others to not believe as well. And they're afraid that'll make people leave. And that's the crux of it. He couldn't do what was right because of the fear. And to me it's like after all these quotes I said, it's like they're acting like the church isn't true and they know it and has something to fear. Because if they knew the church was true and had nothing to fear, they wouldn't have to worry about us. And they could have not excommunicated us and allowed there to be a great amount of love. But they chose the other way.

Marisa Calderwood [00:44:07] And the way they said it was. The Lord has decided that you should both be excommunicated for apostasy.

Carson Calderwood [00:44:14] Which was ironic because he says you're getting excommunicated because you're speaking for the Lord. You know, here saying Jesus Christ, how he should run his church. Yet they were doing that. And I know that's not what they felt in their hearts. You know, maybe they went in and prayed, whatever. I'm not a believer. I wasn't there. I can't. I can't speak for them. But everything I felt from them, it was very strong. They knew that that was the loving thing to do and didn't do it.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] Okay?

Carson Calderwood [00:44:41] And the three witnesses all felt the same way, who are active, believing members. So it was 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 people all feeling one thing and, you know, the others didn't. So.

Marisa Calderwood [00:44:54] So after they told us the decision, then they implored us to be re baptized in a year and said we had to wait at least a year. Of course they said we can't wear our garments, we can't pay tithing.

Carson Calderwood [00:45:07] We had a hard time not smiling, not laughing when they said that because we're like one. We don't. Yeah. Darn, yeah.

Marisa Calderwood [00:45:14] Are you sure? Are you sure I can't. No. So. And then they asked, they really implored us to allow. For us to allow the church to raise our children. That, you know, that they said this is the best place for them and they could still come here. It takes a village and we really want to help you in that way. And at that point, there was really just no need to, you know, come back against anything that they were saying. And so we just held our tongues. You know, we felt more than confident that we can raise our children with better values than we learned in the church. But it's fine.

Carson Calderwood [00:45:49] And we did be nice. We were trying to stay really cordial and nice. And we said, yeah, our kids still want to do scouts and all of our friends and their friends are still in the church, so we're going to still be friends with everyone. Let them do scouts. And that's kind of where we're at. So that was it. And we came out.

Marisa Calderwood [00:46:06] The stake president offered a long prayer at the end where he talked a lot about, you know, that the Lord would like, help us all to understand this in our hearts and help us to come to a greater understanding. And I almost laughed because everything he said, if you twisted it another way, I could believe it. You know, I could agree with that 100%. If you were thinking about it, that, you know, please help all of these men in this room understand the things that we've been trying to say. And so then they asked if we would go around and shake everyone's hand.

Carson Calderwood [00:46:40] I wish we wouldn't have.

Marisa Calderwood [00:46:41] That was rough. It kind of was. A few of the guys said to me, we hope you come back. And a couple of them that we knew a little more gave us hugs. And a couple were really nice.

Carson Calderwood [00:46:54] There's a few people in there that we love, and it was great. And the one guy who was negative, that all of us felt was negative the whole time. It's like I wanted to just walk past him, but I shook his hand and tried to be as nice as I could and we left

Marisa Calderwood [00:47:10] so it was awkward, but.

Carson Calderwood [00:47:12] And then when we walked out and told our, our witnesses that were there that it's double excommunication, man, they were distraught. I felt bad for him because we don't believe, we don't care. It was slightly vindicating that if this organization that I don't think is Christ Church is going to kick me out for being Christ. Like bam. You know, that was the closing stamp on it, the good decision, you guys, Carson and Marisa. And it was very vindicating. We felt very good and happy. But man, our friends that were still in to see that their church that they love, these people they love would do that, it broke their hearts. I felt bad for them and we were obviously sad because of the precedent it sets. All the other people, I actually spoke to him about the one guy that they all know in the stake that is getting eaten up from the inside because he doesn't believe, his wife does. So he tries to stay to make her happy and he can't be authentic, he can't talk about it all because the shame he'll get. And I'm like, it's, it's, it's, this is terrible for him. You know, they could have helped people like that and they're choosing not to.

John Dehlin [00:48:15] So were there people still outside when he came outside?

Marisa Calderwood [00:48:19] Yeah, there were quite a few. I mean they waited it out four and a half hours and it was dark and it was getting cold and there was even a woman who had a little girl who was maybe 8 or 10 years old and she was still there, still wide awake and telling us all about her experiences and people mostly I think just there to welcome us into the world of ex Mormonism, you know, and they, there were maybe only 10 people left.

Carson Calderwood [00:48:50] Some of them were at the restaurant and then they came back.

Marisa Calderwood [00:48:52] Uh huh. It closed at midnight, the restaurant did. And so then they came back over to the parking lot.

Carson Calderwood [00:48:58] The three witnesses were so distraught. They're like, I can't go home, I'm too broken hearted and worked up right now. So we sat outside and talked with them for a half hour or so and took those pictures and bonded some more over the love we felt for each other and went home and went to bed.

Marisa Calderwood [00:49:16] I thought our one friend was gonna be sobbing like he's very emotional anyway, but he was angry and he said he was even surprised at himself that he was angry, but that, you know, that they could say all of that and that they could still seem to be somewhat hard hearted.

Reflections on Being Excommunicated

John Dehlin [00:49:37] So Marisa, how did it feel getting excommunicated. And are you glad you went through with it?

Marisa Calderwood [00:49:46] Yeah, I am. It was really stressful. And honestly, like, at one point in the middle of it, I was just thinking, almost, why are we really here? You know, like, of course it would have been so much easier to just resign. But a lot of the people that gathered in the parking lot for us, they said, both online and in person, I resigned from the church. And in a way, I wish I hadn't. Sometimes they didn't really have a choice. Maybe their spouse was still active and they didn't want to put them through that. But for a lot of reasons, people were happy that we were being their voice and whether they couldn't or whether they had just chosen not to. And so it was really. It was a real physical manifestation of why we're here, you know, that we really are doing this to raise awareness and to be a voice for those people and for a lot of people. So even though, like I said, my leg was shaking and I thought, you know, we could be doing a lot more fun things right now on this Thursday night, it was worth it. And certainly I don't regret it. And it stinks to be excommunicated. It seems really surreal, you know, like, after all, after 35 years of full activity in the church, laying in bed

Carson Calderwood [00:50:58] that night, we're like, we're excommunicated. It was so bizarre.

Marisa Calderwood [00:51:03] It's almost incomprehensible, really. But it's okay. Emotionally, I feel okay, just like I said earlier, because I know what's in my heart, and I know I'm still standing for truth and righteousness, so I'm okay with myself.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] Carson, how about you? Carson?

Carson Calderwood [00:51:21] Yeah, same thing. I haven't been a believer since I got home, since I went through the temple on my way home from my mission in 1997. So almost 20 years. And I tried and tried and tried, and it felt, you know, maybe it was a little immature to be that way, but it felt so vindicating to have the conclusion that I was afraid to make and accept for all those years that this isn't God's one true church. You know, even though there's a lot of good in it, even though some of the people may be inspired at times. I know, I know without. You know, it's been proved to me over and over again that it's not God's one true church. And to have them kick me out for being Christ, like, it felt really good that I had made the right decision and that if I died right now, and God's up in heaven. Even. Even if God is Mormon, I know he'll be happy with me. He's like, well, with the stuff I gave you, Carson, you made the best decision you could, and you tried so hard to be a good person and to be a loving person. So I have no fear. I have no fear at all.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] So what's the future for you guys?

Carson Calderwood [00:52:28] We want to do the same thing. Just help it so that people that are going through these faith transitions don't have to suffer. And I still. I don't care if you want to stay a member, go for it if that's where you need to be. But I want you to have the. I want people, one, to have the full information, and two, if that causes stress for you, I want to be there to help them not suffer. Give them ways to rebuild their lives to wherever they choose. That takes. For them and for us personally, we're going to kind. It's not a huge change. We've always been very scientific minded and we very critical thinkers, and so that's why our kids haven't had a problem with us leaving. They're proud of us. Our. Our oldest is almost 14. He had problems with the church, too, especially the LGBTQ things that bothered him a lot. And he's proud of us, and they're excited and we're gonna. We have all this time we can spend on each other now.

Marisa Calderwood [00:53:16] It's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:53:17] How about you, Marisa? What's. What's up?

Marisa Calderwood [00:53:19] I feel like. I feel like the world is just so much bigger, you know, I really am. I'm happy to put it behind me in this way, even though, you know, I think whether we were excommunicated or not, it would be just kind of a milestone and where we feel like we did our part and I'm just. And I'm just ready to move on. And, you know, I read, like, the book the Gifts of Imperfection by Brene Brown, and, like, there's just. I love thinking about things in new ways, and it just seems like there's just. There's so much positive to move on to.

Carson Calderwood [00:53:54] Instead of reading the war chapters one more time in Alma, we can go read some book like that and make a big change in our life instead of thinking, why am I doing this? Oh, yeah. There's this one little teeny thing that could maybe help me that I've read

Marisa Calderwood [00:54:05] 20 times, and I feel completely free to kind of embrace certain concepts from the bottom of my heart with no reservations, you know, I read the book called the Four Agreements, and it talks about, like, you know, using your word for good, even with yourself, and not taking things personally, not making assumptions, just some really basic things. But I feel like I don't have to, like, reserve a little portion of myself for what the church says or, you know, to just be 100% authentically me and just feel what I really feel about this. What do I really think and what do I really want to do moving forward just all the way from the bottom of my heart with no reservations.

John Dehlin [00:54:48] Are you worried about raising your kids? Not in the church.

Carson Calderwood [00:54:51] We were. And then we saw some studies that show they'd done some semi longitudinal ones that showed that the kids who grew up in Christian religions had less empathy than the ones who grew up with an agnostic morality, which a lot of people in the church think, well, if you're agnostic, you have no morality. But it's so not true. We're very human. And rather than saying agnostic, I like to say I'm a secular humanist because we all have good inside of us. It's there. We're not broken, that we need Christ to fix us. We're good ourselves. We have that goodness in us. We need to let that grow. And so the studies show that the kids who were raised with that secular humanism had more empathy, they were more kind, they gave more in times of need. And it's like, that was so exciting. We're like, sweet. We can make our kids better. We don't have to be scared. We can be happy, positive, and they'll turn out even better. Now, keep all the good from Mormonism, because there's good there. Add the good to it.

Marisa Calderwood [00:55:44] Recently we joined a local group, you know, called Maple Valley Atheist Agnostic Group. And they were doing a book club on that book I mentioned earlier called Parenting Beyond Belief. And there's a companion to it that's a more practical guide called Raising Free Thinkers. And so that was the book that they were doing the book club on. And so we both read it and went into this book club, and it was just like, amazing. All these people who think similarly to us, or even if they don't on some points, you can just have this open and free discussion. And just that very idea of free thinking, it's almost just. It's compelling, it's intoxicating. And we didn't know we'd never met these people before, but we thought, this is really awesome. You know, this is what we're looking forward to.

Life After Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:56:30] So what are your Sundays like now, just family days.

Carson Calderwood [00:56:34] Way less stress.

Marisa Calderwood [00:56:36] You know, all of our friends still are going to church, so our kids don't even really have the option to play with friends. So we just do stuff together. And it just feels like you said so. So, so much less stressful. And we can do things that we enjoy. We just. We're bonding. No matter what we do. We just. We feel happy together.

Carson Calderwood [00:56:57] Yeah. Instead of spending all Sunday afternoon making my seminary lessons for the week or doing my elders quorum presidency meeting and then doing my home teaching and makeup. Home teaching for the people who didn't do it. All those things that I did for so many years, feeling guilty that I'm leaving my kids at home with a wife or whatever, all that guilt and tension is gone, and we can just love and be together.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] Do you guys feel closer as a couple than you did a year or five years ago?

Marisa Calderwood [00:57:22] Definitely, yeah. We had a few months of therapy with Dr. Finlays and Fife before we left the church, and now several months after. And as I've been looking back on it, I realized that we never could have resolve some of the issues that we had if we didn't leave the church. That I don't know that it's like this for all people, but it was coming between us, and we for sure are closer than we've ever been.

Carson Calderwood [00:57:45] Yeah, maybe not between us, but you were feeling like you had to be something that didn't feel right for you, and I wanted you to be more, and you felt like you couldn't. Like, now she can go get her PhD in psychology if she wants. She doesn't have to feel guilty for the kids and me, and I want her to be that. And so she's not feeling that tension for me, saying, go do more thinking. God doesn't want me to, and all that. So it's like we can just be who we want.

Marisa Calderwood [00:58:09] I think more than that is that I was feeling a lot of resentment towards Carson and for not being who I wanted him to be, and which is more of a believer, and then also for, you know, for being the patriarch. Even though he wasn't trying to put me down in that role, I still felt resentment that I felt second class. And we just had a bad frame for marriage, also, where we were enmeshed. We felt like the Gospel says we're supposed to be one. And so it really started to be that we were all over each other, that we didn't allow a degree of differentiation. And I think we just learned how to be more healthy with A strong sense of self. But my head was so crowded with all these things that I should do and all of these things that I had learned in my life as a member, and that to be able to put that down and realize what we really need to do to improve personally and relationally, it's made a huge difference.

John Dehlin [00:59:08] And kids are happier or less happy?

Marisa Calderwood [00:59:11] I think they are all happier.

Carson Calderwood [00:59:12] Yeah, for sure.

Marisa Calderwood [00:59:14] Our oldest is relieved, and he just loves to discuss difficult topics or he loves to be a free thinker, and I think he even feels more free to do that now. And the other kids, I think they just are really responding positively to the extra family time and to mom and dad being happier and just a better vibe.

Carson Calderwood [00:59:36] Yeah, they keep saying they're so happy they don't have to go sit for three hours on Sundays in church. Yeah, that's all they care about. That's like, the. Only. The little ones. It's funny.

Marisa and Carson's Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [00:59:45] All right, well, we'll give you guys each a final closing statement of thoughts or impressions or whatever real quick. You don't have any sense for what was discussed between the High Council. You don't know.

Marisa Calderwood [00:59:56] There's no man, I wish I knew,

John Dehlin [00:59:57] but that'd be fun. Well, if any of them are listening, send me a private email. I'll keep your confidence, and you guys can tell us what that conversation was like.

Carson Calderwood [01:00:06] That would be awesome.

John Dehlin [01:00:07] All right, Carson, closing statement, then. We're gonna give Marisa the last word.

Carson Calderwood [01:00:11] All right? I think so. Anticipating that we would be excommunicated, I made that graphic. That's my Facebook image of that. We are apostates. I wear that with pride now. I love being an apostate against an organization that hurts people and doesn't want. Didn't have the ability that made it so that good people didn't go with their hearts. And I said in there that so many good people are seeing this and leaving the church that people can't easily say, oh, apostate equals bad. They have loved ones. Almost everybody has someone close to them that's left the church now. It's gotten so big and it's snowballing. And I think that if you're afraid, if you aren't living authentically and you have the doubts, just hopefully this can inspire you. Stand up, be true to yourself, and help this grow. Help there be more kindness and truth in the world. Truth has nothing to fear, so shed light on it. And if it's good, we'll realize it's good. And if it's bad, we can put it aside and look for more.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] Good.

Carson Calderwood [01:01:13] And that's what I hope we can all do. It'll be awesome.

John Dehlin [01:01:17] All right, Marisa, final word.

Marisa Calderwood [01:01:19] So if anyone hasn't seen Lindsey Sterling, the Mormon dancing violinist, her video for the song called Shatter Me, I would highly recommend it. Go to YouTube and look up Shatter Me. Lindsey Stirling, she's a ballerina playing the violin in the middle of a snow globe. And. And she's trapped in the snow globe. And outside of her, she sees something flying by, and she can't tell is it a butterfly or is it a scary bat? And she has a scared look on her face, and she just feels trapped inside this bubble. And she starts to realize that if she plays her violin, that it starts to create cracks in the porcelain doll figure that she is. And her light is coming out, and after a while, she plays and plays and plays, and then the whole shell shatters. And she. The light is just coming out of her. And she realizes that the light was always within her. And the snow globe breaks, and she sees that there's not a scary world around her, that she's standing on the top of a mountain, and now she can see everything. And it was butterflies that were flying by. And it's goodness that's outside. And that resonates with me more than anything else because the light is inside of us, and the goodness is inside of us, and all we have to do is let it out, and there is a beautiful world out there.

John Dehlin [01:02:42] Beautiful. Well, bless you both for your courage and your love and for standing for truth.

Carson Calderwood [01:02:49] Thank you. John.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] You have thousands of people who are just really grateful and who you've really helped. So bless you.

Carson Calderwood [01:02:57] Thank you.

Marisa Calderwood [01:02:58] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:02:59] Yeah, keep up. I think the best thing we can do is just shine our light. And that's the best. That's the best thing we can all do, is just be the best people we can be. And I think you guys are a great example of that. So thank you.

Carson Calderwood [01:03:10] Thank you.

Marisa Calderwood [01:03:11] Thanks for giving us the opportunity.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] All right, bless you and stay in touch.

Carson Calderwood [01:03:16] Definitely.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.